"There is no reality which is not symbolic. The nature of our existence in the world is symbolic. Events coalesce around centres of meaning, through our Attention and our Memory. We all experience this constantly, and if one is attentive, what it does is it makes the world a magical place" - Jonathan Pageau
@strieko Jesus Christ is not a historical figure you never existed history lies I promise you that there is no historical proof for Jesus no foundation nothing
@strieko Jesus Christ =666 Messiah =666 Look how nasty prideful and pigheaded and horrible people are who follow the Bible to those who don’t believe the lies they believe the Bible is a weapon of mass destruction that has destroyed this earth only the weak minded believe it And I was one of them until I decided to think for myself and seek the truth many blessings
Every time I listen to Jonathan, I am so moved, so edified, so encouraged! I'm a new catechumen in the Orthodox Church and I am simply blown away! How exciting that here, now, in my 67th year on earth, I am truly comfortable regarding my Christian beginning and ending, and I can say truthfully, life is good!
Mr. Pageau, it is an understatement to say that many young people who grew up in The Church but were inculcated by the public school system and modern-day media sources desperately NEED to be awakened to the type of wisdom displayed in your video. Your view not only offers an alternative perception to the black and white view of many Church sects, but more importantly I think it renews a sort of intrigue that many have lost when reading/thinking about The Bible.
@@hues- inculcate (ĭn-kŭlˈkātˌ, ĭnˈkŭl-) v. To impress (something) upon the mind of another by frequent instruction or repetition; instill: inculcating sound principles. v. To teach (others) by frequent instruction or repetition; indoctrinate: inculcate the young with a sense of duty.
I agree. Many Christians attack Peterson for even suggesting symbolic interpretation of the Bible at all. And I understand their fears. But they completely miss that Peterson is capable of getting atheists to read the Bible and follow Christian morality... they are fearing that he’s trying to rewrite the Bible basically. That’s not what he does though. It’s frustrating hearing Christians tell me Peterson is a Charlatan and a fraud when he’s why I came back to Christ.
Just as God told Elijah when he went into hiding from Jezebel: (Note: I know the context deals with persecution, but God has still set Biblically grounded pastors, preachers, teachers, etc. in the world to learn from.) 1 Kings 19:9-18 NASB Then he came there to a cave and lodged there; and behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and He said to him, "What are you doing here, Elijah?" [10] He said, "I have been very zealous for the LORD, the God of hosts; for the sons of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars and killed Your prophets with the sword. And I alone am left; and they seek my life, to take it away." [11] So He said, "Go forth and stand on the mountain before the LORD." And behold, the LORD was passing by! And a great and strong wind was rending the mountains and breaking in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind. And after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. [12] After the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire; and after the fire a sound of a gentle blowing. [13] When Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his mantle and went out and stood in the entrance of the cave. And behold, a voice came to him and said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?" [14] Then he said, "I have been very zealous for the LORD, the God of hosts; for the sons of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars and killed Your prophets with the sword. And I alone am left; and they seek my life, to take it away." [15] The LORD said to him, "Go, return on your way to the wilderness of Damascus, and when you have arrived, you shall anoint Hazael king over Aram; [16] and Jehu the son of Nimshi you shall anoint king over Israel; and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abel-meholah you shall anoint as prophet in your place. [17] It shall come about, the one who escapes from the sword of Hazael, Jehu shall put to death, and the one who escapes from the sword of Jehu, Elisha shall put to death. [18] Yet I will leave 7,000 in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal and every mouth that has not kissed him." Romans 1:14-17 NASB I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish. [15] So, for my part, I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome. [16] For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. [17] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
@@cbogue418 feel you. all these questions are floating around me constantly. Johnathon gave some wonderful insight but in my opinion he kinda skirted around them in a "no, but yes" way ah well
@7LayerOscillator There is a saying you will see floating around about the Eucharist: Catholics believe that the Eucharist is real. Protestants believe it is symbolic. Orthodox Christians believe that it is real *because* it is symbolic. Don't give up trying to understand. I feel you are close. I will pray for you, and the 4 people that liked your comment. ❤️☦️
@@jesh879 ..well not quite; Catholics and Orthodox believe it IS real but also symbolic. saying the Orthodox 'believe that it is real because it is symbolic' is dangerous as it's too vague and could lead to misunderstanding but I feel you are close.
did Jonathan answer though? the Eternal Son WAS Incarnate of the All Holy Virgin in a moment of time and truly lived, was crucified and Rose again. things can be real and symbolic.
My introduction to symbolism was something I noticed about Jesus. He speaks in parables, and the Bible is full of stories, so I concluded that God teaches us through the stories of the Bible and even Jesus didn't interpret it at face value. This was after I realized that the running theme of literal interpretations of Christianity is not compatible with my view of reality.
Intriguing do you think that Jesus is God flesh incarnate? Or do you think that is symbolic as in a way that we are all apart of god. Also do you think us being a part of God is just a symbolism way of saying that we have a soul?
@@rushpatriot2866 both and one cannot be without the other, because reality is not merely physical, think about it this way, what is the "realist" thing in a Darwinian sense, it is not the animals that changed over time but it that which selects, but that which selects is not physically real but none the less the realist thing, one connot be without the other.
As a former hyper-rationalist atheist, I've been trying to get my spiritual mind oriented for the last year or so with Jordan Peterson at the helm of the ship. Your channel definitely seems like the next deep dive for me, as there is an absolutely unfortunate dearth of this kind of content in the mainstream. Thank you for making these videos. They do not go unappreciated.
If you are looking for faith that is based upon REASON you are on the right track. And I think you would really appreciate my book "The Holy Grail is Found."
That's awesome you're on a spiritual path brother. Maybe rethink who is at the "helm of the ship" though. Just something I'm going through myself. I keep trying to let others tell me how to think or what I should be doing. I just started owning my beliefs and actions myself. Believe what you want, but own it.
So weird, yeah I'm in a similar position now. I've always had a strong sense of morality and thought it was because of my upbringing and ability to reason. I reasoned that I wanted to survive and others to survive, well to thrive really, be free and have good lives so my sense of morality is based about that, at least so I thought? I have been ardently atheist all my life pretty much, thinking that all Christian thought of God as a literal sky daddy (as I mockingly referred to the phenomenon) who would smite you if you don't placate yourself pathetically in front of him like a snivelling slimy and blindly loyal henchman for a war lord. This image was worsened by the horrific things this (literal, at least that was how I thought others thought and some do) person in the sky did, send plagues, screw people over as a bet, murder children through excruciating diseases. Then I came across peterson, consumed all his lectures and have been reading maps of meaning and just wow. So I have come to think that my morality is based in immersion in Judeo-Christian culture, reflected in my parents values, reason (I reason that being moral and wanting the best for myself and others will bring that about if I act that way) and most importantly in literature and movies, particularly fantasy and mythology. They are abstracted forms of behaviour (over immense spans of time), acting out how you should or should not behave in order to find meaning, be successful and in general be a good person Symbolism always fascinated me, why dragons would show up in every culture in the world, what an object represented to people metaphorical. So I don't know what to call myself anymore? Atheist, a theist? And I certainly don't want to be in the same boat as the people who believe in God as a literal non-human person with immense superpowers (though I sort of get how that might be useful???, But dangerous too), so my morality per se has not been perceptively altered, but layers have been removed from my vision, so I can 'see' more perspectives of the world. More importantly how and why I should act. so weird
You might like Fr Richard Rohr, Karen Armstrong's 'A History of God', and if you want to go deep into some medieval theology, Lovejoy's classic, 'The Great Chain of Being'.
Incredible - loved this so much. As someone raised catholic, then fundementalist, then atheist, to now returning to the symbolism inside Christianity this verbalizes the ways symbolism is actually more true, more potent and eternal that a brief moment of personal reality. Well done analysis.
Fractals of the cosmic intelligence that we call god. Made in his image. Made to experience his creation and gain wisdom only to again unite and add to the cosmic library with the cosmic father at the time we die. Our light and energy transform, then be reborn again to continue the process in an ever-expanding wisdom gathering loop. Or at least that's what I currently believe. We are a fractal part of God.
Wow. I am not (yet) a Christian. I'm watching video's like this and trying to get a better understanding. And this video was tremendously helpful. The idea that the Bible has compressed events and meaning is not something I considered before. Thank you.
Christ challenges you to sacrifice yourself, to yourself, to the world, and to God, like He did. He wants you to walk in His steps and the steps of the saints. Will you answer the call?
that's why "symbol" and "devil" are absolute antonyms, which is something that modern people often fail to understand, both intellectually and in practice.
Thank you. I was stating the obvious that we often miss. Is there a way of contacting you through email, I am not sure if youtube still has that "inbox".
I have been following you for a while, but since I have been looking into church, fathers and orthodoxy, I have come to realize how absolutely brilliant you are. You are truly a gift. The veil is lifted and you are such a big part of that for me. Thank you very much.
Well dreams are of a different realm. The same realm of which I think our imagination and thought process comes from. It's really interesting that we can think like we do inside our minds without seeing it with our own eyes. It's very simple and in my opinion a good explanation on what's more going on. Too science imagination and consciousness is anomaly that can be explained. Just like how science cant explain what happens after death. So in my opinion consciousness is a spirtual happening that is constant within our mind. We know what dmt is but we dont understand how it works and yet it's in all of us and releases when we die. Very interesting.
@@rushpatriot2866 DMT has been shown to be released when mice die, but not with humans. Still an intriguing theory; I do believe our consciousness is something supernatural and continues to live past our physical deaths.
I am very happy to have finally found this video, Jonathan! You have done humanity a tremendous service here. You have finally made it possible for me to bridge the term "symbol." Though I have been studying the works of Dr. Jung for 3 decades, which is almost entirely about symbolism, no where have I found such a succinct and important discussion of why a symbol is important until I viewed this video. You definitely have earned the notoriety you are beginning to receive, and I look forward to seeing more of your work in the future. I am planning to add this video to one of my own playlists, which spotlights the work of others, and I will mention it in our Group meeting this evening.
I started to go to my church ( also Ortodox) two years ago, before that I knew very little about my religion and I almost never vent there. Now I am attending services regularly and learning more and more, and I am so happy to be there. Your videos have been very helpful to me and I like your channel. Thank you very,very much!!! 💙💙💙
Jonathan, I know you must have felt the Spirit in you strong this night. That was an incredibly powerful flow of wisdom that was obviously free flowing not from your willing. It reminded me of a person freestyle rapping in a flow state. Wow. Thank you for reminding me that there are more dimensions of being and reality seeking expression than the purely scientific lens our current culture is infatuated with. Some moments in some days I feel a profound connection to the current moment and a deep connection with being. Colors are more vivid, my emotions are heightened, sound are sharper, and I know that God is acting through me by the power of his presence inside me...Thank you for the reminder my brother.
4:51 Attention 5:40 Memory: string of coherence 6:53 Rambling 7:28 Orthodox Church ⛪️ 8:34 The Nature of Existence is Symbolic 9:00 Pregnancy 3 dreams of pregnancy 10:24 Coalescence of Events 11:17 Reality works through ordering the chaos into a pattern 12:55 Hierarchy of Remembering 14:51 Memory at a Cosmic Level 16:13 How do I deal with that question? 17:15 Disciples on the road 18:31 The Culmination
This way of understanding the Bible grew my faith. Through you and Jordan Peterson I’ve let go of my lifelong pursuit to understand all the technical details of the Bible stories and my need to know of things “actually” happened. I’ve had seeds of these ideas for years, but they were never fleshed out, and I never had words for them until I discovered you two. Thank you for sharing this.
Oh for real. A few weeks ago I read Genesis and wept. The whole 'knowledge of good and evil' leading to suffering and death, and then the 'and the woman will have pains in birth' and then the migration / banishment scene. I mean, it is truly profound.
I was just discussing about transubstantiation with my Christian Friend after communion; the metaphysical meeting the physical is a really a mundane event that happens all the time. Now coming to Orthodox Christianity it's a symbolic world? Now THAT's a fascinating idea
I have listened to this several times. I don't think I am smart enough to be Orthodox, but have faith I am learning. I feel like it is mind bending and I am not that kind of thinker naturally. Lord have mercy on my concrete thinking... I do love this gift of Orthodoxy!
This has become one of my favorite videos. I come back from time to time just to rewatch it. I had kind of similar view on symbolism, but this video articulated and expanded upon it perfectly.
positivism has done so much damage to the possibilities of acquiring true knowledge, it's great to see people as you and professor Jordan finally opening the horizons of what is truth!
I grew up in a literalist tradition but have always had and will always have questions. Sadly many people are threatened by learning more about different viewpoints. This was good stuff. I especially like the emphasis made that something being a symbol doesn’t negate its realness. Rather it’s a symbol because of what’s real. Thanks
This video was beautiful. I am going to memorize this explanation because it's perfect for explaining so much without going off the rails like I always do. God bless you good sir.
Ha sido un gran gusto encontrar tu canal Jonathan. Soy Mario de Guatemala, y a lo largo de estos 2 últimos años mi conciencia ha evolucionado hacia este tipo de entendimiento simbólico del mundo. Ahora tengo 22 años (recién cumplidos), y estoy feliz de haber podido toparme con gente que entiende la realidad a través del poder del símbolo. Gracias por hacer estos vídeos, son una motivación para mí y para todos aquellos que buscan aproximar a las personas hacia este tipo de entendimiento.
I'm an atheist. And this was by far the most satisfying answer to this issue I ever heard from those of your kind, the very fist time I feel like I'm agreeing with a Christian person on the interpretation of the world surrounding us. A bit ironically, your approach is quite scientific, and it also reminds me "The name of the Rose" my favorite novel. Although I don't agree with Christianity on the fundamental level, or any religion to the point I dislike them, this is very inspiring argument. You certainly make Biblical discussions easy to understand for an atheist. Thanks for sharing.
New subscriber. WOW I'm completely blown away by how profound and complex but plainly spoken answer you gave. Its impossible for man's mind to grasp the scope and perspective of the greatness of it all
God is beyond our understanding & reasoning...for a reason. All will be revealed in God's time, not ours. So beautifully explained... Love your passion, attention to detail & your delivery. God bless you Sir🙏💓🙏
I found this video about 4 months ago I believe. I was very confused and searching for answers. I wasn’t sure about Christianity. I listened to you but like barely the first time. I immediately casted judgement. Then, today I watch this… it was profound. I stopped being stubborn about 1 month ago and read the gospels for myself. Head on… it didn’t take more than 2 books to really have me automatically wanting to accept Christ as Lord. But this video coming now is insane timing. Thank you for these answers..
A way to help the forensic type thinker understand what you are saying would be to consider that we ourselves are symbols, the image of God, we are nothing more than symbols of the true being. And our life is the passage from symbol to true being. We will become what we symbolize.
I just saw this. I’ve been watching Jonathan for the last year or so and I see this is from six years ago. Yes he looks younger! Yes, it’s probably good to show some of these because it kind of gives you a starting point for people who haven’t really heard him much. He is the best.
As far as I am concerned, just about every thing that Peterson says, is fundamentally Christian. I think that by listening to him you can better understand God. As a believer myself, I see God and Christ in most of what he says.
Just found your channel and subscribed. In my view, focusing on the material subject we can see what it symbolizes if we really want to and are willing to open our mind to it, to be teachable. What the material subject symbolizes is a higher reality which actually causes the material subject and dwells within it like a soul dwells within it’s body. *[Got this perspective from Emanuel Swedenborg] IOW, the higher reality is the cause and the material subject is the effect. The effect is meant, imo, to be a “ladder” for one who wants to climb it to get to the cause. While each person is free to stay on the level of the effect, I believe the cause is the goal; the cause brings understanding and clarity. In school, we are not meant to stay in first grade but to move on to second grade then to third then on and on from one stepping stone to the next. To me, a good illustration would be to compare the material subject to the literal meaning of a parable or story and the symbolic meaning to the inner, more real meaning. As an example, we could consider Jesus’s parable of the sower. The literal meaning has to do with agriculture but the spiritual meaning has to do with a person’s receptivity of God’s Word. Peace and blessings to all :)
You are the smartest person I have ever heard. I wish we were friends so I could listen to you explain life, the universe, and everything all the time. Thank you brother for blessing us.
Symbolism is the most primitive written forms of instinctual apperception of the basic values of living . It is a material representation of immaterial qualities and functions. A deeper mysterious doorway of experiences.
Dude... I just came to the realization of how our focus determines our receptive capacity a couple days ago, but I've been having trouble on how to put that into words... You helped me out man. Thanks!
20:22 Nice touch at the end, where we tend to "RIP" about a departed, you usually use "memory eternal" so, bringing that in touch with the Resurrection of Christ is good theology.
This is why I subscribed to your channel! I am I a Christian and in seminary but I also love symbolism and it has opened my eyes and made life “magical” as you say. I am forever thankful for gentlemen such as yourself, Jung, Peterson, etc. Thank you and may God bless all you di
I'm a fan of Jordan Peterson, I'm reading books from his list, and I take the bible way more seriously now as an agnostic, compared to being a staunch atheist. I do know that Jung talks about synchronicity, but I don't know a lot about his opinion on it. When Jonathan talks about his wife being pregnant and certain events lining up to it I couldn't help to be sceptical about it. To me it sounds like you can explain it away with saying it is a coincidence. But I sure felt a bit funny when I was still thinking of it, while picking my nose, and Jonathan said that you couldn't compare the analysis Biblical events to a daily event like picking your nose.
I have recently started to have an appreciation of the idea that the God that created this unbleivelably complicated universe is unlikely to be easily explained by a simple religion. It seems more reasonable to expect the designer of the universe to in fact be MORE complicated than the universe He made, and as a result, to expect the Bible to be understood simply literally is unreasonable.
Jonathan, thank you for this video and congratulations on your and your wife's baby. I've listened to this twice now and I don't quite follow your criticism or your confusion when people ask, "Did the resurrection of Jesus the Christ actually happen." I am one who also struggles with this claim, as it is the central claim of Christianity (perhaps it's on equal footing with the claim of the Incarnation. But without the resurrection, there would be no Christianity). But your criticism is that people are expecting our wanting a detailed description or forensic outline of the event. But I don't think that is the case for many of us. The claim made by St. Paul and by the tradition as handed down by the apostles who also staked their lives on this claim was that Jesus IS risen and that this claim is not that his Spirit lives on, but that he was raised in a 'glorified body.' So it was a bodily resurrection. And I think many, including myself, who ask is the resurrection symbolic or physical, are really asking if there was an actual bodily resurrection. I get your point that symbolism is deeply real, or as JBP points out, it is 'meta-real' or 'hyper-real.' And I get that we experience our world symbolically and that as we move from our idiosyncratic symbolism we move to a cosmic symbolism. This echoes what Jung said (I think it was Jung, but it may have been Joseph Campbell): Myth is a communal dream, while dreams are private myths. But the question is that even though reality coalesces with memory and attention and consciousness on a cosmic scale, did Christ actually rise from the dead.
Actually I thought Jonathan answered that yes Jesus did bodily resurrect; but understanding that (even as an) event in literal historical terms was not possible.
WoW! I just found you, two days ago! Have watched 4-5 of your videos. Thank you, I often felt lonely in my faith. So much more to literal and symbolic, it is about application in the simplest of ways every day….as you do! Merci 💕🙏🕊🌏🌎🌍🕊🙏💕
I think of the Bible the same way as I think about Shakespeare. Did Romeo and Juliette truly exist as two lovers from rival families who killed themselves? No. But did the pattern occur, family feuds causing needless death? Absolutely. That event did not occur once to an individual family, but millions of times in different forms across the world. I think that distinction is the key to a modern take on religion. There's no question that the fundamentalists, teaching that the Bible is literally true and that the stories represent individual events, are doing a major disservice to society. But there is incredible value to the symbolic view that treats these stories as patterns.
Elisha except it’s not. You’re literally telling me that Genesis makes sense according to what we actually know about the world today? That man was created from dust and woman from man’s own body? That there was a talking serpent? That we were one of the first creatures on this planet? (a planet that is billions of years old) You don’t believe that many things are symbolic, metaphorical and simply exaggerated as human beings who believed in God wrote the Bible, not God himself? Who would have been around to see God do all that in Genesis? You think he whispered in Moses’ ear exactly how he created everything? When? And why? He’s God, why would he even share that? He doesn’t need to, he’s God, he’s too big and too great. To think we know everything there is to know about the creator of the world is absurd, and to think we’ll find that in a book written by humans is even more absurd. Yes, the Bible is a book with great stories that convey God’s greatness, some of them I believe have truth, but to believe everything happened exactly like that and that it’s the literal word of God... I’m scared of how unintelligent so many human beings are.
There’s a difference between making the Bible fit into your world view and having the Bible be your world view. Anyone can interpret the Bible anyway they want but at the end there can only be one absolute truth. In my opinion, the less literally you take the Bible the less meaning it becomes to an individuals life. Did God really create everything in 7 days? I don’t see why not, is he not God? The problem now becomes scientism as a religion of itself and world view, that contradicts literal Bible events. And you can keep going further and further. Did Jesus exist in physical form? Is there really a need for repentance for salvation or is it just a suggestion to living a proper moral life? I see a struggle for people who don’t accept the Bible literally to dance around anything they want because it’s all made up and not God’s word, picking and choosing what they want to subscribe to and what they would rather throw away.
It gets difficult cause Jesus was a real person. I suppose I don’t believe he walked on water. And that was more of a symbol for the miracle he was. A poetic way of talking about the prophet. The son of God title to me is more metaphorical than real. I don’t think God gives birth like that. Not do I think it would be moral for a God to impregnate a woman. Pretty rapey.
David Keith How can you accept the story of Jonah and the Whale literally though? I suppose that’s where I would make a point of debate. There’s a reason people can’t take it as literally the word of God. Translation... King James Version... I mean it literally says on the book it’s a mans version. How can it be Gods direct word but King James Version of it? It seems silly.
Elisha I will fully admit I do fear men. Probably more than God. I think the fact I didn’t believe in God most of my teenage years impacts that though. The fear of God was almost taken from me so to speak.
C.S.Lewis saw that the gospel story was a myth but was also true - a true myth. Why should not the resurrection story be the same - a symbol but also true? After all, history itself teaches that Jesus actually lived and was crucified; why should the historical part stop before the resurrection?
Wow...this is crazy, because just a couple of hours ago, I was thinking to myself how to better improve my memory recall. I was thinking about how come I couldn't retrieve certain past events from the memory archive of my mind, why was I forgetting, and what could I do to remember and recall these events whenever I needed them. I thought about looking up videos on how I could improve my memory. These thoughts eventually subsided in my mind, but then- hours later-I come across your video in my RUclips recommendation feed. And I didn't click on it because I thought it had something to do with remembering stuff, I clicked on it because I thought I could gain some more insight onto genesis. But here you are, talking about how to remember things better, and the importance therein. Not only that, but the example you used (about your newborn), is very similar to what I now just went through. Your experiences regarding your wife's pregnancy wasn't a coincidence and neither is this. In fact, I will see this as God telling me that what you're saying holds validity, so then, I shall surely remember this! (And on top of this, your name is Jonathan; and MY name is Jonathan too! It's even spelled the same way, lol. Its nothing huge, but it's just the cherry on top 😊)
if you walk into a room and see a Tiger, our brain will record everything . But it will focus you on the tiger and omit everything else When you try to remember walking into the room the brain will only show you the Tiger , the misconception exists that all the other recordings in that room are gone and not accessible This is not true, you can access them and visit them and sit in them and walk around in them But you have to convince your Thalamus that the Tiger is no longer the most important thing in that Room You need to calm your Thalamus down and the Thalamus is not fooled by language , so language cannot be used Its our over association with the dividing separating detached left PFC the imaginary sense of individuality that prevents us being calm enough to see past the Tiger and PS some Tigers are so scary that the Thalamus locks the memory of the Tiger incident away and prevents the imaginary idea of self from even knowing that it once met a Tiger and its here that everything becomes meaningful
In the end, the need to cling to certain beliefs and creed is a clear evidence of the ego seeking security and struggling with uncertainty. So many people identify strongly with a set of beliefs, "I AM that", and need to immerse in an already preconceived representation of the world as told by some "authority", as is (an example being the litteralists and a lot of "religious" people). The symbols of Enlightenment are everywhere in the bible, yet a majority of people are completely blind, asleep to them because of their need to enforce a psychological security and stay cozy by not shaking up their world view. On the opposite, those who see easily the meaning of the symbols can understand how "unchristian" such persons are. Why is it so important to *associate* with a doctrine? The awaken one sees these patterns of wanting to cling to ideas, beliefs, identity, etc and knows how it is strangling the power and intelligence of the self, so he learns to breath out. In my opinion, if you understand deeply the meaning of some of the biblical symbols, one consequence is that you don't need to call yourself a christian, and most importantly you move on and start living.
So grateful that I was introduced to you via the videos you were part of in Dr. Peterson's Biblical Series - Now I have yet another playlist in the making, this one specifically your videos and "Pageau/Peterson overlap content, etc...(with others, including your brother" - Thanks so much. PS - pleased to see, during my short glance at the comments section as the video was starting, some non-traditional RUclips comments sections activity. I just found out about you, your book, etc., last night, so I'm about to see if the book has been published yet - I hope the anticipation of it doesn't raise cortisol levels if it isn't published yet - I'm sure an astounding number of people are very anxious to get it - and I do mean get it - I'm sure this will be one I want a hard copy of (I want a print copy of everything, but.... thank God for audiobooks as well. I'll stop rabbiting on now... Thank you for your work, and punching that non-existent clock, which writers (who aren't cut out to have no clock to punch, usually) must force themselves to find, with no help from those pills from "Limitless". Thanks again and best regards to you and yours, grats on the family, I see you have one from the glance I took at the comments already.
I,m a big fan of bart eihrman (splchk). I always found it odd that his studies led him to atheism. I read Misquoting Jesus , and it didn't challenge my faith, but kind of informed it.. He's such a great scholar,(preeminent IMO) and really cleared up problematic areas of the new testament. He also felt it necessary to write a book detailing the evidence that Jesus a real person. A genuine historical figure. If nothing else.
With regard to the arguments for historicity of the resurrection of Christ, check out arguments by William Lane Craig, if you want more analytical approach.
Kalam justification for the belief in God explained here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalam_cosmological_argument Depends on whether you buy the idea that the purely physical, non- living world must have a motivation to exist. The only evidence of any ulterior motivation lies with living beings - which are fundamentally motivated to reproduce. You can chose to believe that God is a symptom of life ( we explain our motivation to reproduce as being our 'fathers' motivation handed on to us), or you can believe life is a symptom of God (all of reality is spewed forth by the great motivational force). Either way, He seems to be a part of what we experience as reality, and must also, by nature of him being superior to all, he must transcend reality. So no effective difference ? EXCEPT... if He doesn't exist if/when life doesn't exist, that is if He is a symptom of life, then He cannot be transcendent of the physical world. Jung referred to Him as "the God figure'. Unable to make a decision or assumption either way, Jung acknowledged God as an intrinsic part of the human experience - it being pointless to deny Him and useful (to say the least) to have Him around for many many reasons.
"In things like movies and videos games, the story of the resurection is every where if you can see it" LEGEND OF ZELDA BREATH OF THE WILD. The hero literally wakes up after 100 years in the "Cave of Resurrection"
The whole human narrative is echoing eternally via the cortices Mum to daughter Its the Roman and Arabian Slavers that taught you to ignore the wives tales as stuff and nonsense and that truth is written Yes the Slavers are the ones who taught us what to believe Slavers , ill say it again Slavers
It's so hard to listen to you because you're so nice to watch and I love the way you speak. Then, when I finally do grasp what you're saying... it's even more intense!
16:40 and yet Paul states very strongly in 1 Cor 2:4-5 and many other places that it was precisely through experiencing literal supernatural events the way the a witness to a murder would witness it, that he spread the faith. This does not preclude these actions from being symbolic, but their relevance supercedes the symbolism.
Your comment is hilarious. Read that whole chapter again. I don't think it means what you think it means. In the whole chapter he speaks of the revelation of hidden mysteries, "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived", he talks about knowing the thoughts of God revealed by the Spirit and speaks of having the mind of Christ. Hilarious that you would interpret such a lofty text by using the word "literal supernatural events" as if those three words put together were not sufficiently contradictory in themselves.
Thank you for your reply. I reread the passage. The "secret and hidden wisdom of God" (I'm using RSVCE) is for the "mature" but when he first "came to" the Corinthians they were immature like a baby unable to eat meat as St. Paul says in 3:1-3. So the "demonstration of the Spirit and power" is not the same thing as the "hidden wisdom." In fact is it juxtaposed with wisdom, a worldly wisdom yes but still wisdom. The reason that Paul "came to" them with "demonstration of the Spirit and power" and "not lofty words or wisdom" is made clear in chapter 1:22 "For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom". He came to them like a Jew in order to stand in contradiction to the teaching of the philosophers, after all just before St. Paul came to Corinth in Acts 18:1ff he had just been embarrassed by Greek philosophers in Athens Acts 17:16-34. Therefore these "demonstration of the Spirit and power" are signs like a Jew would demand. What kind of sign would a Jew demand? Well according to Mk 8:11-12 it is a supernatural event to show his ability to master the laws of the universe and in John 4:46-54 the literal healing of a dying son. When they come looking for signs in John 6 Jesus says they are interested in filling their stomachs, that was the draw for the immature, only then does he try to draw them into the hidden wisdom of the mature.
I also want to add I mean no disrespect by my first comment on this video (I don't know if you read it), I just get frustrated with double speak amongst what we Catholics call Modernists. It's ok if that is how you feel about it or if you don't feel that way, I just wish people would be explicit on this topic.
I certainly respect what I imagine in charity is your unwillingness to put the mysteries of God in a box, and that it is very likely limiting your ability/willingness to speak because of course we speak in delineated categories. Nor do I want to push you beyond what you feel morally comfortable with, there have been one of two Catholic dogmas to which I have assented to like this (as in I don't know what that means but I think that it is true), and I think that you mean it with no intended subterfuge. My concern is that there are many Protestants and Catholics (or at least those who call themselves Protestants and Catholics) who would say those very words but mean nothing more than "The Church/members thereof is/are less morally evil than it/they has/have been in the past" or in the case of Hegel something like "Humanity's self-awareness of the connection of the human mind to the laws of the universe continues to be synthesized in the collective consciousness". Those two things (esp. the first) may very well be symbolic meanings of the Resurrection and in that sense "what the Resurrection means" and the Resurrection may be their efficient cause perhaps even formal cause, but they are not "the event". And as far as I can tell it is the event that St. Paul is talking about in 1 Cor 15.
Sir, what you are doing is important beyond description, we live in the most prosperous time in human history but we find ourselves more lost then ever, weve adopted this idea that salvation is purely material and that we are purely physical beings that weve forgot what animates us and inturn lost our souls in the process and what you and Dr Peterson are doing is resurrecting our souls again, God bless you sir
those that know don't reveal those that don't know write books about guessing The answers were left by the ancient's in your cortices echoing Mum to daughter eternally but The Roman Slavers taught you to focus on lies written in books and that those words are the literal truth Those Slavers EH! so simple to discredit a teaching, that needs to be encoded as part of the lesson , to teach the children in schools that words are to be taken literally
This is really beautiful. I still find myself drawn to a sort of mereological nihilism because of the very fact that it is OUR attention which organizes reality as such. Being-in-itself still seems very much like a vapor to me, rather than the fundament of what is. This leads me to a sort of reductionism, where those patterns are the result of what is below, rather than what is above. I still think this is one of the very best formulations of the Christian perspective I've ever heard, and it makes me want to buy into the totality, but I still find myself impeded by those previously articulated hang-ups.
All those signs and coincidences re: a new born child. Awesome! I was given a premonition one year in advance that my father would die. (and I'm not a mystical person) It's something very real. I've been getting these "vibes" about my own death lately. I'm trying to get my house in order. Love your talk Jonathan. God bless your efforts and you. (I got steered in your direction through Paul VanderKlay, and Jordan Peterson)
Jeff Mullins I almost 100% agree with you - but, no, they don’t have to have Actually happened. Let’s take Jesus’ parables for examples ... He didn’t suggest they were factual accounts of real historical events; but they did have points to them which were TRUTH. However, having said that, I do believe the things recorded in scripture AS FACTS, are indeed factual in the normal everyday sense ... no matter how many extra layers or aspects of meta-meanings, symbolism, allegory, morals, dogma, truth or hints they may contain or hint at. So, again: D - All of the above. 😁
I was an atheist for a while. Recently I had come back around to spirituality but I still held some skepticism against Christianity. My entire view of the bible changed when a friend from college told me that the bible ought not to be read literally. He personally loves the idea of the bible being "the best story ever told" because that phrase reminds him that whether or not the events in the bible are historically accurate, they still have meaning beyond their historical accuracy. He opened my eyes to that it doesn't matter whether or not Jesus was actually real because whats important is that the story of Jesus is real.
gshooting Saying that god is real is such a loaded statement. God exists beyond real and unreal. God is beyond our comprehension. Trying to say that god is real is just as inaccurate as saying god isn’t real. The nature of humans and our words will never be enough to say exactly what the nature of god is. And I do not know if my friend prays but I’ll speak for myself when I say that I don’t see prayer as an act that one does but rather a a state of mind that one comes into.
If you read the Bible though, then you know that Paul warns that denying Jesus’ resurrection basically makes the faith useless. He wasn’t being symbolic. None of them were. It really does matter that Jesus is real, otherwise it really is “cleverly invented stories.” Otherwise, Christ died for nothing and you’re still in your sins because you don’t believe that he actually removed them…that you’re still your own source of righteousness. That tendency toward hyper spiritual interpretation isn’t Christianity, but Gnosticism.
thankyou jonathan. i may well join in with one of your classes on the new university! all best wishes for that. the four levels are also used in astrology and in understanding and indeed using its symbolic world for purposes of revealing divine wisdom. its amazing how all these worlds of truth meet no matter what particular lens we come to them. Richard
Mr. Pageau,We cannot treat the symbolism of Genesis the same as the narrative telling of the gospels and the resurrection. While one could give much space to saying Adam may not be a literal Adam, because of the content, the age of the story, etc. The gospel narrative is much, much closer to a crime scene than your give credit. Jesus and his resurrection account is not a metaphor, symbolic or psychotic experience. It was real, physical, in the domain of time and space and yet outside that domain as well, as understood by his risen, glorified body that could eat, appear and walkthrough walls. If you believe the Gospel accounts of the risen Jesus were imaginations of what they believed, then so be it. They are NOT, however, in the same nuance that Peterson projects Genesis stories, that being traditions of being and logos. In essence, the coming of Christ, literally, is the fulfillment of that archtype, prophetic fulfillment, and transcendent reality. With the coming of Jesus, the archtypes are gone because they are fulfilled. Note the whole OT sacrificial system that pointed to the sins of Israel being cleansed by a sacrificial lamb were fulfilled by the ultimate sacrificial lamb, the real blood of Jesus was spilled, not symbolically... though the OT symbolism is seen as intended. So the question becomes, Why not interpret scripture as literal where it suggests and symbolic where it suggests? To have to force all scripture into non-literal symbolism is as bad as all literal, true? As humans, we want the benefits of truth, but not the price to have it. Jesus told the parable about the man who found a large pearl and sold all he had to get it. We must sell off our ideas of human diety, skepticism of a holy God who judges, and pursue the person of God? My 2C, thanks for your thoughts.DR
I am equally frustrated by his ambiguity, but why can't they be both literal and symbolic. Like when I make love to my wife, I'm literally and symbolically giving myself to her. We are literally and symbolically being joined together. If the archetypes are fulfilled then why aren't they more real now than ever?
Jonty Campbell, and yet the logos behind the Christian mythos explicitly denies that this is merely the case. If it is true then Christianity is a fundamentally bad myth.
"mere" as in nothing more than. Myth is very important but something could be more than a myth, and thus not merely a myth. My wife is a great mother and a great lover. Both of those are of fundamental importance and not be trifled with, but she could be merely a good mother, implying not that being a mother is not important but that she is not also the other thing. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "bad meaning...?" Is it how could a myth be bad or how is this myth bad?
Jonty Campbell, Your two comments are incongruous. If Christianity were simply a myth to the point that "whether God exists or not is not a useful question" or "You won’t gain any new converts by treating the bible [such as the Resurrection] as ACTUAL, historical occurrences" the Christianity is a mere myth. I'm aware that you are using myth to mean story, and behind every myth is a logos (meaning/moral/abstract principle behind the particulars). For example that habitable order is formed out of chaos is a logos of the Gen 1 myth. Although if I remember correctly he doesn't point out that mythoi have logoi behind them, Jean Pierre Vernant is a good place to look to understand this distinction, although I expect you are either already familiar with it or else get it without needing extra reading (still he is quite good). The problem is that an inextricable part of the logos behind the Christian myth is that the historical particulars matter. This is in direct contradiction to Greco-Roman Philosophy which held that God (assuming that is an adequate referent) did not even know that particulars existed. He was completely consumed by abstractions and particularity was at best an inferior necessity of the divine overflowing and at worst the positively evil result of pride. By contrast Christianity claims that God not only is aware of the particulars, but deeply loves them and acts intentionally (as Maimonides mockingly puts it as "the purpose of one who purposes -- I believe he is referencing Isaiah but I can't find the passage at the moment) in relation to them. It's for this reason that it is only the Christian Philosopher Boethius who begins asking if God can know the future. The idea that God even knew the present or past was absurd to the Pagan Philosopher. You see this most fundamentally in the incarnation where the Logos become a particular historical person ("was made flesh" Jn 1), Who was born in a particular time and place ("In the days of King Herod . . .when Quirin′i-us was governor of Syria" Lk 1-2). He died a particular death and according to 1 Cor 15 rose a particular resurrection, without which "our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain" which He did amongst other reasons because He "loved [the particular, Paul of Tarsus] and gave himself for [the particular, Paul of Tarsus]" (Gal 2). This is not only seen in the NT but also in the OT as well, where God calls a particular man (Abraham) who is asked to sacrifice his particular son (Isaac) and chooses a particular brother (Jacob) to create a particular people (Israel) over all the other peoples (gentiles). And this particular people awaited a particular Messiah (Jesus of Nazareth) son of the Particular King (David) with his particular dynasty, which Messiah fundamentally taught them the Logos is an intentional servant of particular humans, indeed "the great lover of mankind" as the liturgy of John Chrysostom put it, which God is known from all the other gods because He is the God of those very particular men, "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." So if "whether ANY religious figure ACTUALLY existed or not . . . is not a useful question" then Christianity is a fundamentally and deeply flawed mythos because it conveys a fundamentally false logos.
Jonty Campbell, 1. I'm aware that myth as a genre conveys meaning which is true regardless of whether or not the narrative itself is historically accurate. But it is the nature of the Christian myth that if its narrative does not also happen to be historically accurate then its profound "verity" is actually a falsity. For example, the profound verities of Rapunzel is something along the lines of: "In order for a girl who is in the grasp of an Oedipal mother to transition to being a woman she must be whisked away by an unruly man whom she civilizes through marriage and fatherhood," and that "the motivating factor of the Oedipal mother is the fear of losing her youth by become a grandmother." These two things can be true whether or not there ever was such a person as Rapunzel. However, one of the profound verities of the Christian myth is "The Divine is personally concerned with the lives of historically particular individuals." It conveys this verity through examples. If these examples are not historically accurate, indeed if the historicity is irrelevant, it puts the lie to this profound verity. This profound verity cannot be true unless the narrative is historically accurate. This profound verity is at the heart of the Christian myth; if Pageau does not realize this, and I fear he doesn't, then he is mistaken. 2. I suspect it is accurate to say that when logos meets chaos it orders it and the ordering of chaos is creation. I would point out though that in the story humans are made in the image and likeness of God, which means that we are not the things which primarily speak order into chaos. There is a transcendent principal capable of speech such that by the mere act of speaking what He says happens. Our speech is creative only insofar as it mimics His, as an image (is in accord with reality or true). His speech is true by fiat, ours is true by mimesis. Also it might help you to look into the difference between logos endiathetos and logos prophorikos.
Just to be clear: to the question of do you believe Jesus was a historical individual who physically rose from the dead at a particular time (in the way atheists and most people think of it), your answer is no? You answer yes to whether you the "event" occurred, but your definition of the event is different from the way most people conceive it. When the question is asked, most people take the event to mean the Jesus and Resurrection as described in the Bible, taken literally. I love your content, but I think it would be helpful to make clear that your answer is no, to the way the question is commonly understood. Otherwise, many people will walk away feeling confused, and the secular types will accuse you of obfuscation.
I believe you misunderstood what he said. From what he says he does believe the resurrection is a literal event. His mention of it was saying it's not described. It's not told the exact model of how it happens, and he continues that it doesn't need that type of forensic description. And the description isn't important. But it is taken as a real historical event.
@@isaiahpoe Precisely, and to use our relatively modern ways of doing history is at odds with how the stories are meant to be perceived. Yes, Christ did ressurect, but to boil it down to a set up observable factors such as time and place, and to know the intimate details of how it happened all misses the point. In fact, you reduce the Truth to something much meaner and in essence less true. We cannot expect the world and the eternal to conform to our utterly finite and limited ways of perception.
It all comes down to the meaning of words in the context of Christianity. As Jonathan said in other videos, it's all symbolic. It's never litteral. It's never metaphorical. It's only symbolic. What does that mean? It means that the event itself happened symbolically. And it's still happening right now as we speak and it has always happened. It's timeless. There is no physicality to it. The Bible is the story of how our brain created the world we live in. It's the story of how an ape became aware of itself. It's a story on how to behave in the context of our evolution from animals to something more. It's a praise to humanity and it's a social tool. So, did Jesus rose from the dead? It's all packed like a software is compiled. What is the meaning of "Jesus"? What is the meaning of "rose"? What is the meaning of "death"? What is the meaning of "event"? What is the meaning of "body"? It's a program made out of a complex set of subroutines called "jesus", "rose", "death", "event", "body", etc, and only the combination of all of those makes up the whole story. The more you unpack each of these subroutines, the more you understand what is the true meaning of resurrection. Here is an anlogy: When you open spotify and play a Mozart piece, did spotify really played mozart music? It's a complex system of Software + Speakers + Recording + Rewriting of scores + Mozart writing the music + what is creativity + etc etc You can unpack eveything and then, maybe you'll have the full answer. So, did spotify just played some Mozart music? You can say yes, it happened, you heard it. Or you can be cynical and say that no, it wasn't really mozart, it's only a program and it wasnt real instruments in front of you, we can't know if the song was played perfectly, etc etc etc. But our brain doesn't work like that. It makes generalisation so we can make something useful out of all the information we have. It's all symbolic. Never litteral. Never metaphorical. I believe the Bible is written in a way that you can get something out of every level of unpacking. New atheists are mad at the first degrees of interpretation because our society (in it's own first degree of interpretation) has nothing to do with the societies back then. But when you digg a little (into both our own values and the Bible messages), the story is still the same. Nothing has changed. We are still humans. And that's the story of the Bible.
Have you read the Bible? How is it a story of evolution if God created man in his image? One can believe man created God, or, God created man. How can nothing create something? Your comment is like me saying Charles Darwin’s book is about salvation by faith in Christ? You can interpret the Bible however you please but at the end of the day there is one absolute truth. One person believes when we die there will be ‘nothing’ and another believes in a judgement; both cannot exist.
@@AlexxTehGreat The judgement at the end of someone's life is real. If you do bad things, people will most likely remember you as a bad person. If you do great things, people will most likely remember you as a good person. Men didnt created God nor did God created men. God IS men. Men IS God. God is the SYMBOL of what humankind is. When "God" judges you at the end of time, it's MANKIND who judges you. It's just a reminder that you should do good in life. Hell is a concept added to christianity that was "stolen" from ancient Egyptian religion. Much like the date of birth of Jesus, corresponding to winter equinoxe... it's all old school religion based on the study of the movement of stars in the sky adapted to the new christian religion. It's all symbolic, never litteral. You will not "litterally" burn in hell and feel physical pain after you die... but God (humankind) might
"There is no reality which is not symbolic. The nature of our existence in the world is symbolic. Events coalesce around centres of meaning, through our Attention and our Memory.
We all experience this constantly, and if one is attentive, what it does is it makes the world a magical place" - Jonathan Pageau
The whole Bible is symbolic not literal that’s a fact many blessings
@strieko Jesus Christ is not a historical figure you never existed history lies I promise you that there is no historical proof for Jesus no foundation nothing
@strieko Jesus Christ =666
Messiah =666 Look how nasty prideful and pigheaded and horrible people are who follow the Bible to those who don’t believe the lies they believe the Bible is a weapon of mass destruction that has destroyed this earth only the weak minded believe it And I was one of them until I decided to think for myself and seek the truth many blessings
@strieko And that makes no sense I didn’t promise you anything
@strieko God is man-made does not exist don’t fall for the occult trap that you are God please nothing good will come from it
Every time I listen to Jonathan, I am so moved, so edified, so encouraged! I'm a new catechumen in the Orthodox Church and I am simply blown away! How exciting that here, now, in my 67th year on earth, I am truly comfortable regarding my Christian beginning and ending, and I can say truthfully, life is good!
Mr. Pageau, it is an understatement to say that many young people who grew up in The Church but were inculcated by the public school system and modern-day media sources desperately NEED to be awakened to the type of wisdom displayed in your video. Your view not only offers an alternative perception to the black and white view of many Church sects, but more importantly I think it renews a sort of intrigue that many have lost when reading/thinking about The Bible.
Raleigh Swan, well put.
Raleigh Swan what do you mean by inculcated?
Very true bro..so dam true
@@hues-
inculcate (ĭn-kŭlˈkātˌ, ĭnˈkŭl-)
v.
To impress (something) upon the mind of another by frequent instruction or repetition; instill: inculcating sound principles.
v.
To teach (others) by frequent instruction or repetition; indoctrinate: inculcate the young with a sense of duty.
I agree. Many Christians attack Peterson for even suggesting symbolic interpretation of the Bible at all. And I understand their fears. But they completely miss that Peterson is capable of getting atheists to read the Bible and follow Christian morality... they are fearing that he’s trying to rewrite the Bible basically. That’s not what he does though. It’s frustrating hearing Christians tell me Peterson is a Charlatan and a fraud when he’s why I came back to Christ.
I'd totally go to church if I could find a pastor who talked like this.
If you find one let me know
They may not speak the same words JP says, but the message is always clear. I hope you search & find!!! x
Just as God told Elijah when he went into hiding from Jezebel:
(Note: I know the context deals with persecution, but God has still set Biblically grounded pastors, preachers, teachers, etc. in the world to learn from.)
1 Kings 19:9-18 NASB
Then he came there to a cave and lodged there; and behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and He said to him, "What are you doing here, Elijah?" [10] He said, "I have been very zealous for the LORD, the God of hosts; for the sons of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars and killed Your prophets with the sword. And I alone am left; and they seek my life, to take it away." [11] So He said, "Go forth and stand on the mountain before the LORD." And behold, the LORD was passing by! And a great and strong wind was rending the mountains and breaking in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind. And after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. [12] After the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire; and after the fire a sound of a gentle blowing. [13] When Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his mantle and went out and stood in the entrance of the cave. And behold, a voice came to him and said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?" [14] Then he said, "I have been very zealous for the LORD, the God of hosts; for the sons of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars and killed Your prophets with the sword. And I alone am left; and they seek my life, to take it away." [15] The LORD said to him, "Go, return on your way to the wilderness of Damascus, and when you have arrived, you shall anoint Hazael king over Aram; [16] and Jehu the son of Nimshi you shall anoint king over Israel; and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abel-meholah you shall anoint as prophet in your place. [17] It shall come about, the one who escapes from the sword of Hazael, Jehu shall put to death, and the one who escapes from the sword of Jehu, Elisha shall put to death. [18] Yet I will leave 7,000 in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal and every mouth that has not kissed him."
Romans 1:14-17 NASB
I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish. [15] So, for my part, I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome. [16] For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. [17] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
Then you would love my book, "The Holy Grail is Found."
Funny enough, you can actually find some Catholic priests who talk this way. Catholicism actually has some very sophisticated approaches to the texts.
Wow slow clap applause for the questioner. Literally asked ALL of the questions I would ask
@@cbogue418 feel you. all these questions are floating around me constantly. Johnathon gave some wonderful insight but in my opinion he kinda skirted around them in a "no, but yes" way
ah well
@7LayerOscillator
There is a saying you will see floating around about the Eucharist:
Catholics believe that the Eucharist is real. Protestants believe it is symbolic. Orthodox Christians believe that it is real *because* it is symbolic.
Don't give up trying to understand. I feel you are close. I will pray for you, and the 4 people that liked your comment. ❤️☦️
@@jesh879 ..well not quite; Catholics and Orthodox believe it IS real but also symbolic. saying the Orthodox 'believe that it is real because it is symbolic' is dangerous as it's too vague and could lead to misunderstanding but I feel you are close.
did Jonathan answer though? the Eternal Son WAS Incarnate of the All Holy Virgin in a moment of time and truly lived, was crucified and Rose again. things can be real and symbolic.
@@marcokite literally jonathan has said that. And so have many other orthodox leaders. So... idrc what you think.
My introduction to symbolism was something I noticed about Jesus. He speaks in parables, and the Bible is full of stories, so I concluded that God teaches us through the stories of the Bible and even Jesus didn't interpret it at face value. This was after I realized that the running theme of literal interpretations of Christianity is not compatible with my view of reality.
Intriguing do you think that Jesus is God flesh incarnate? Or do you think that is symbolic as in a way that we are all apart of god. Also do you think us being a part of God is just a symbolism way of saying that we have a soul?
@@rushpatriot2866 People never can answer this
@@rushpatriot2866 both and one cannot be without the other, because reality is not merely physical, think about it this way, what is the "realist" thing in a Darwinian sense, it is not the animals that changed over time but it that which selects, but that which selects is not physically real but none the less the realist thing, one connot be without the other.
Pierre Meshreky that’s a pretty intriguing explanation. It might go even deeper than that. The more truths found the more mysteries uncovered
Your so right, check out Bill donahue hidden meaning. Com
As a former hyper-rationalist atheist, I've been trying to get my spiritual mind oriented for the last year or so with Jordan Peterson at the helm of the ship. Your channel definitely seems like the next deep dive for me, as there is an absolutely unfortunate dearth of this kind of content in the mainstream. Thank you for making these videos. They do not go unappreciated.
If you are looking for faith that is based upon REASON you are on the right track. And I think you would really appreciate my book "The Holy Grail is Found."
@@tomrhodes1629 Can I find it for free to check it out? I'll buy it if I want to read the whole book.
That's awesome you're on a spiritual path brother. Maybe rethink who is at the "helm of the ship" though. Just something I'm going through myself. I keep trying to let others tell me how to think or what I should be doing. I just started owning my beliefs and actions myself. Believe what you want, but own it.
So weird, yeah I'm in a similar position now. I've always had a strong sense of morality and thought it was because of my upbringing and ability to reason. I reasoned that I wanted to survive and others to survive, well to thrive really, be free and have good lives so my sense of morality is based about that, at least so I thought? I have been ardently atheist all my life pretty much, thinking that all Christian thought of God as a literal sky daddy (as I mockingly referred to the phenomenon) who would smite you if you don't placate yourself pathetically in front of him like a snivelling slimy and blindly loyal henchman for a war lord. This image was worsened by the horrific things this (literal, at least that was how I thought others thought and some do) person in the sky did, send plagues, screw people over as a bet, murder children through excruciating diseases.
Then I came across peterson, consumed all his lectures and have been reading maps of meaning and just wow.
So I have come to think that my morality is based in immersion in Judeo-Christian culture, reflected in my parents values, reason (I reason that being moral and wanting the best for myself and others will bring that about if I act that way) and most importantly in literature and movies, particularly fantasy and mythology. They are abstracted forms of behaviour (over immense spans of time), acting out how you should or should not behave in order to find meaning, be successful and in general be a good person Symbolism always fascinated me, why dragons would show up in every culture in the world, what an object represented to people metaphorical. So I don't know what to call myself anymore? Atheist, a theist? And I certainly don't want to be in the same boat as the people who believe in God as a literal non-human person with immense superpowers (though I sort of get how that might be useful???, But dangerous too), so my morality per se has not been perceptively altered, but layers have been removed from my vision, so I can 'see' more perspectives of the world. More importantly how and why I should act.
so weird
You might like Fr Richard Rohr, Karen Armstrong's 'A History of God', and if you want to go deep into some medieval theology, Lovejoy's classic, 'The Great Chain of Being'.
Incredible - loved this so much. As someone raised catholic, then fundementalist, then atheist, to now returning to the symbolism inside Christianity this verbalizes the ways symbolism is actually more true, more potent and eternal that a brief moment of personal reality. Well done analysis.
Please make more of these, they are extremely valuable, you don't even know how much
You don't understand because you have become blind and deaf. There is no god, we are gods
Anthony John “There is no God,”
“We are gods”
Fractals of the cosmic intelligence that we call god. Made in his image. Made to experience his creation and gain wisdom only to again unite and add to the cosmic library with the cosmic father at the time we die. Our light and energy transform, then be reborn again to continue the process in an ever-expanding wisdom gathering loop. Or at least that's what I currently believe. We are a fractal part of God.
and Congratulations on the baby!!
Lol that was a hilarious story. Couldn't make it up.
Wow. I am not (yet) a Christian. I'm watching video's like this and trying to get a better understanding. And this video was tremendously helpful. The idea that the Bible has compressed events and meaning is not something I considered before. Thank you.
May the Holy Spirit lead you to Christ for salvation and communion with the Father.
Curious to see where you are today?
Christ challenges you to sacrifice yourself, to yourself, to the world, and to God, like He did. He wants you to walk in His steps and the steps of the saints. Will you answer the call?
that's why "symbol" and "devil" are absolute antonyms, which is something that modern people often fail to understand, both intellectually and in practice.
That's a great comment.
Thank you. I was stating the obvious that we often miss. Is there a way of contacting you through email, I am not sure if youtube still has that "inbox".
pageaujonathan at gmail dot com
I don't know what you mean by that.
@@kennyg1358 symbol is a bringing together, while the devil takes apart, I'spose.
I have been following you for a while, but since I have been looking into church, fathers and orthodoxy, I have come to realize how absolutely brilliant you are. You are truly a gift. The veil is lifted and you are such a big part of that for me. Thank you very much.
I feel like I could watch this 20 more times and learn something new each time. Brilliant work!
My wife's friends had dreams about her being pregnant a few days before we found out...and that was for both our kids three years apart. Crazy.
Well dreams are of a different realm. The same realm of which I think our imagination and thought process comes from. It's really interesting that we can think like we do inside our minds without seeing it with our own eyes. It's very simple and in my opinion a good explanation on what's more going on. Too science imagination and consciousness is anomaly that can be explained. Just like how science cant explain what happens after death. So in my opinion consciousness is a spirtual happening that is constant within our mind. We know what dmt is but we dont understand how it works and yet it's in all of us and releases when we die. Very interesting.
@@rushpatriot2866 DMT has been shown to be released when mice die, but not with humans. Still an intriguing theory; I do believe our consciousness is something supernatural and continues to live past our physical deaths.
I watched you when I was a Christian.
I watched you when I was agnostic.
I watch you now that I’m born again.
Awesome! 🎉
@@ALyingDogFacedPonySoldier I love your username lol
@@CAT-2323 Biden says I’m a liar...
@@ALyingDogFacedPonySoldier Biden is demented so don’t worry about it 😉
How is the first and your last point differ
HOLY SHIT. You've managed to express something that I had a faint hunch about, but couldn't put into words. I'm excited about the bible again.
Same
Same!
I am very happy to have finally found this video, Jonathan! You have done humanity a tremendous service here. You have finally made it possible for me to bridge the term "symbol." Though I have been studying the works of Dr. Jung for 3 decades, which is almost entirely about symbolism, no where have I found such a succinct and important discussion of why a symbol is important until I viewed this video. You definitely have earned the notoriety you are beginning to receive, and I look forward to seeing more of your work in the future. I am planning to add this video to one of my own playlists, which spotlights the work of others, and I will mention it in our Group meeting this evening.
I started to go to my church ( also Ortodox) two years ago, before that I knew very little about my religion and I almost never vent there. Now I am attending services regularly and learning more and more, and I am so happy to be there. Your videos have been very helpful to me and I like your channel. Thank you very,very much!!! 💙💙💙
Jonathan, I know you must have felt the Spirit in you strong this night. That was an incredibly powerful flow of wisdom that was obviously free flowing not from your willing. It reminded me of a person freestyle rapping in a flow state. Wow. Thank you for reminding me that there are more dimensions of being and reality seeking expression than the purely scientific lens our current culture is infatuated with.
Some moments in some days I feel a profound connection to the current moment and a deep connection with being. Colors are more vivid, my emotions are heightened, sound are sharper, and I know that God is acting through me by the power of his presence inside me...Thank you for the reminder my brother.
I can see the holy spirit moving in him too
Synchronicities are some of the things that can not be explained "rationally" or factually. Those who have experienced know how incredible they are.
fr
Yes
dog what yea its called confirmation bias
A series of them lead me to this channel.
What does it mean to explain something factually?
Symbol - a place where 2 things meet, the intersection of the cross.
Awesooommee!!
Time and space
4:51 Attention
5:40 Memory: string of coherence
6:53 Rambling
7:28 Orthodox Church ⛪️
8:34 The Nature of Existence is Symbolic
9:00 Pregnancy
3 dreams of pregnancy
10:24 Coalescence of Events
11:17 Reality works through ordering the chaos into a pattern
12:55 Hierarchy of Remembering
14:51 Memory at a Cosmic Level
16:13 How do I deal with that question?
17:15 Disciples on the road
18:31 The Culmination
lol...'rambling' at 6;53 - the whole thing is rambling!
14:40 I was picking my nose right then. Synchronicity, case in point.
Just picked my nose around 5 mins
Lol 😂
This way of understanding the Bible grew my faith. Through you and Jordan Peterson I’ve let go of my lifelong pursuit to understand all the technical details of the Bible stories and my need to know of things “actually” happened. I’ve had seeds of these ideas for years, but they were never fleshed out, and I never had words for them until I discovered you two. Thank you for sharing this.
2 years or so after first watching it, I can confidently say that this video changed my life. Thanks, Jonathan. Glory to Jesus Christ.
You can tell the questioner got a good education at that little school at least. They were able to ask a very complicated question quite succinctly.
This is like the third time I’m listening to this but this time right after that JPvRD convo, makes this feel psychedelic
Oh for real. A few weeks ago I read Genesis and wept. The whole 'knowledge of good and evil' leading to suffering and death, and then the 'and the woman will have pains in birth' and then the migration / banishment scene. I mean, it is truly profound.
"like a hot knife through butter"
I was just discussing about transubstantiation with my Christian Friend after communion; the metaphysical meeting the physical is a really a mundane event that happens all the time. Now coming to Orthodox Christianity it's a symbolic world? Now THAT's a fascinating idea
I have listened to this several times. I don't think I am smart enough to be Orthodox, but have faith I am learning. I feel like it is mind bending and I am not that kind of thinker naturally. Lord have mercy on my concrete thinking... I do love this gift of Orthodoxy!
man you have a way of just heading straight to the center of it that’s like no one I’ve ever heard before
This has become one of my favorite videos. I come back from time to time just to rewatch it. I had kind of similar view on symbolism, but this video articulated and expanded upon it perfectly.
positivism has done so much damage to the possibilities of acquiring true knowledge, it's great to see people as you and professor Jordan finally opening the horizons of what is truth!
Jonathan, thank you. I’m speechless. I’m beginning to see. ❤️
I grew up in a literalist tradition but have always had and will always have questions. Sadly many people are threatened by learning more about different viewpoints. This was good stuff. I especially like the emphasis made that something being a symbol doesn’t negate its realness. Rather it’s a symbol because of what’s real. Thanks
This is amazing work, Jonathan! I'm really grateful for you putting this into such concise and compelling words.
You are a real Saint my brother. No words for how thankful i am for this video mate. God bless and thank you
This video was beautiful. I am going to memorize this explanation because it's perfect for explaining so much without going off the rails like I always do. God bless you good sir.
Ha sido un gran gusto encontrar tu canal Jonathan. Soy Mario de Guatemala, y a lo largo de estos 2 últimos años mi conciencia ha evolucionado hacia este tipo de entendimiento simbólico del mundo. Ahora tengo 22 años (recién cumplidos), y estoy feliz de haber podido toparme con gente que entiende la realidad a través del poder del símbolo. Gracias por hacer estos vídeos, son una motivación para mí y para todos aquellos que buscan aproximar a las personas hacia este tipo de entendimiento.
I'm an atheist. And this was by far the most satisfying answer to this issue I ever heard from those of your kind, the very fist time I feel like I'm agreeing with a Christian person on the interpretation of the world surrounding us. A bit ironically, your approach is quite scientific, and it also reminds me "The name of the Rose" my favorite novel. Although I don't agree with Christianity on the fundamental level, or any religion to the point I dislike them, this is very inspiring argument. You certainly make Biblical discussions easy to understand for an atheist. Thanks for sharing.
"in search of the miraculous" PD Ouspensky
This is where you can choose to start to peek behind the façade
New subscriber. WOW I'm completely blown away by how profound and complex but plainly spoken answer you gave. Its impossible for man's mind to grasp the scope and perspective of the greatness of it all
"Pathological, fedora-wearing atheist." I'm stealing that! 😂
14 mins onwards. Absolute gold. Thanks
God is beyond our understanding & reasoning...for a reason.
All will be revealed in God's time, not ours.
So beautifully explained...
Love your passion, attention to detail & your delivery.
God bless you Sir🙏💓🙏
PhoenixRising323 Susan Burnley best comment throughout this thread
I found this video about 4 months ago I believe. I was very confused and searching for answers. I wasn’t sure about Christianity. I listened to you but like barely the first time. I immediately casted judgement.
Then, today I watch this… it was profound. I stopped being stubborn about 1 month ago and read the gospels for myself. Head on… it didn’t take more than 2 books to really have me automatically wanting to accept Christ as Lord. But this video coming now is insane timing. Thank you for these answers..
A way to help the forensic type thinker understand what you are saying would be to consider that we ourselves are symbols, the image of God, we are nothing more than symbols of the true being. And our life is the passage from symbol to true being. We will become what we symbolize.
I just saw this. I’ve been watching Jonathan for the last year or so and I see this is from six years ago. Yes he looks younger! Yes, it’s probably good to show some of these because it kind of gives you a starting point for people who haven’t really heard him much. He is the best.
As far as I am concerned, just about every thing that Peterson says, is fundamentally Christian. I think that by listening to him you can better understand God. As a believer myself, I see God and Christ in most of what he says.
This is one of the most important, if not the most important, video I’ve ever seen/heard. Thank you so very much, Sir.
Just found your channel and subscribed.
In my view, focusing on the material subject we can see what it symbolizes if we really want to and are willing to open our mind to it, to be teachable. What the material subject symbolizes is a higher reality which actually causes the material subject and dwells within it like a soul dwells within it’s body. *[Got this perspective from Emanuel Swedenborg] IOW, the higher reality is the cause and the material subject is the effect. The effect is meant, imo, to be a “ladder” for one who wants to climb it to get to the cause. While each person is free to stay on the level of the effect, I believe the cause is the goal; the cause brings understanding and clarity. In school, we are not meant to stay in first grade but to move on to second grade then to third then on and on from one stepping stone to the next.
To me, a good illustration would be to compare the material subject to the literal meaning of a parable or story and the symbolic meaning to the inner, more real meaning. As an example, we could consider Jesus’s parable of the sower. The literal meaning has to do with agriculture but the spiritual meaning has to do with a person’s receptivity of God’s Word.
Peace and blessings to all :)
You are the smartest person I have ever heard. I wish we were friends so I could listen to you explain life, the universe, and everything all the time. Thank you brother for blessing us.
Symbolism is the most primitive written forms of instinctual apperception of the basic values of living . It is a material representation of immaterial qualities and functions. A deeper mysterious doorway of experiences.
This has mind blowing implications for what meaning and purpose is and what place it has in ones life.
Simply brilliant. Thank you Jonathan!
Dude... I just came to the realization of how our focus determines our receptive capacity a couple days ago, but I've been having trouble on how to put that into words... You helped me out man. Thanks!
I’m a new subscriber and your videos are great!! I particularly like this one. Refreshing to hear your perspective.
congrats on the baby, love your chats with Jordan
20:22 Nice touch at the end, where we tend to "RIP" about a departed, you usually use "memory eternal" so, bringing that in touch with the Resurrection of Christ is good theology.
This is why I subscribed to your channel! I am I a Christian and in seminary but I also love symbolism and it has opened my eyes and made life “magical” as you say. I am forever thankful for gentlemen such as yourself, Jung, Peterson, etc.
Thank you and may God bless all you di
I'm a fan of Jordan Peterson, I'm reading books from his list, and I take the bible way more seriously now as an agnostic, compared to being a staunch atheist.
I do know that Jung talks about synchronicity, but I don't know a lot about his opinion on it. When Jonathan talks about his wife being pregnant and certain events lining up to it I couldn't help to be sceptical about it. To me it sounds like you can explain it away with saying it is a coincidence. But I sure felt a bit funny when I was still thinking of it, while picking my nose, and Jonathan said that you couldn't compare the analysis Biblical events to a daily event like picking your nose.
@@DaveReithmiller1983 me too man, I've come a long way. Still watching Jonathan's content :)
Thank you Jonathan for putting your work on the internet.
I have recently started to have an appreciation of the idea that the God that created this unbleivelably complicated universe is unlikely to be easily explained by a simple religion. It seems more reasonable to expect the designer of the universe to in fact be MORE complicated than the universe He made, and as a result, to expect the Bible to be understood simply literally is unreasonable.
This one might be my favorite. I’m on a quest to listen to every podcast over this next year. But if they are anything like this. Wow!
Jonathan, thank you for this video and congratulations on your and your wife's baby.
I've listened to this twice now and I don't quite follow your criticism or your confusion when people ask, "Did the resurrection of Jesus the Christ actually happen." I am one who also struggles with this claim, as it is the central claim of Christianity (perhaps it's on equal footing with the claim of the Incarnation. But without the resurrection, there would be no Christianity). But your criticism is that people are expecting our wanting a detailed description or forensic outline of the event. But I don't think that is the case for many of us.
The claim made by St. Paul and by the tradition as handed down by the apostles who also staked their lives on this claim was that Jesus IS risen and that this claim is not that his Spirit lives on, but that he was raised in a 'glorified body.' So it was a bodily resurrection. And I think many, including myself, who ask is the resurrection symbolic or physical, are really asking if there was an actual bodily resurrection.
I get your point that symbolism is deeply real, or as JBP points out, it is 'meta-real' or 'hyper-real.' And I get that we experience our world symbolically and that as we move from our idiosyncratic symbolism we move to a cosmic symbolism. This echoes what Jung said (I think it was Jung, but it may have been Joseph Campbell): Myth is a communal dream, while dreams are private myths.
But the question is that even though reality coalesces with memory and attention and consciousness on a cosmic scale, did Christ actually rise from the dead.
Actually I thought Jonathan answered that yes Jesus did bodily resurrect; but understanding that (even as an) event in literal historical terms was not possible.
Thank you for this video and please don't stop.
WoW! I just found you, two days ago! Have watched 4-5 of your videos. Thank you, I often felt lonely in my faith. So much more to literal and symbolic, it is about application in the simplest of ways every day….as you do! Merci
💕🙏🕊🌏🌎🌍🕊🙏💕
I think of the Bible the same way as I think about Shakespeare. Did Romeo and Juliette truly exist as two lovers from rival families who killed themselves? No. But did the pattern occur, family feuds causing needless death? Absolutely. That event did not occur once to an individual family, but millions of times in different forms across the world.
I think that distinction is the key to a modern take on religion. There's no question that the fundamentalists, teaching that the Bible is literally true and that the stories represent individual events, are doing a major disservice to society. But there is incredible value to the symbolic view that treats these stories as patterns.
Elisha except it’s not. You’re literally telling me that Genesis makes sense according to what we actually know about the world today? That man was created from dust and woman from man’s own body? That there was a talking serpent? That we were one of the first creatures on this planet? (a planet that is billions of years old) You don’t believe that many things are symbolic, metaphorical and simply exaggerated as human beings who believed in God wrote the Bible, not God himself? Who would have been around to see God do all that in Genesis? You think he whispered in Moses’ ear exactly how he created everything? When? And why? He’s God, why would he even share that? He doesn’t need to, he’s God, he’s too big and too great. To think we know everything there is to know about the creator of the world is absurd, and to think we’ll find that in a book written by humans is even more absurd. Yes, the Bible is a book with great stories that convey God’s greatness, some of them I believe have truth, but to believe everything happened exactly like that and that it’s the literal word of God... I’m scared of how unintelligent so many human beings are.
There’s a difference between making the Bible fit into your world view and having the Bible be your world view.
Anyone can interpret the Bible anyway they want but at the end there can only be one absolute truth.
In my opinion, the less literally you take the Bible the less meaning it becomes to an individuals life.
Did God really create everything in 7 days? I don’t see why not, is he not God? The problem now becomes scientism as a religion of itself and world view, that contradicts literal Bible events. And you can keep going further and further.
Did Jesus exist in physical form? Is there really a need for repentance for salvation or is it just a suggestion to living a proper moral life?
I see a struggle for people who don’t accept the Bible literally to dance around anything they want because it’s all made up and not God’s word, picking and choosing what they want to subscribe to and what they would rather throw away.
It gets difficult cause Jesus was a real person. I suppose I don’t believe he walked on water. And that was more of a symbol for the miracle he was. A poetic way of talking about the prophet. The son of God title to me is more metaphorical than real. I don’t think God gives birth like that. Not do I think it would be moral for a God to impregnate a woman. Pretty rapey.
David Keith How can you accept the story of Jonah and the Whale literally though? I suppose that’s where I would make a point of debate. There’s a reason people can’t take it as literally the word of God.
Translation... King James Version... I mean it literally says on the book it’s a mans version. How can it be Gods direct word but King James Version of it?
It seems silly.
Elisha I will fully admit I do fear men. Probably more than God. I think the fact I didn’t believe in God most of my teenage years impacts that though. The fear of God was almost taken from me so to speak.
God bless you for this video. Never had explanation this deep.
C.S.Lewis saw that the gospel story was a myth but was also true - a true myth. Why should not the resurrection story be the same - a symbol but also true? After all, history itself teaches that Jesus actually lived and was crucified; why should the historical part stop before the resurrection?
Great pfp. Great album
@@obdeisibcirrus993 My goodness - you recognised that from such a tiny picture??! Well done! (and, yes, you're right: great album)
Wow...this is crazy, because just a couple of hours ago, I was thinking to myself how to better improve my memory recall. I was thinking about how come I couldn't retrieve certain past events from the memory archive of my mind, why was I forgetting, and what could I do to remember and recall these events whenever I needed them. I thought about looking up videos on how I could improve my memory. These thoughts eventually subsided in my mind, but then- hours later-I come across your video in my RUclips recommendation feed. And I didn't click on it because I thought it had something to do with remembering stuff, I clicked on it because I thought I could gain some more insight onto genesis. But here you are, talking about how to remember things better, and the importance therein. Not only that, but the example you used (about your newborn), is very similar to what I now just went through. Your experiences regarding your wife's pregnancy wasn't a coincidence and neither is this. In fact, I will see this as God telling me that what you're saying holds validity, so then, I shall surely remember this!
(And on top of this, your name is Jonathan; and MY name is Jonathan too! It's even spelled the same way, lol. Its nothing huge, but it's just the cherry on top 😊)
if you walk into a room and see a Tiger, our brain will record everything . But it will focus you on the tiger and omit everything else
When you try to remember walking into the room the brain will only show you the Tiger , the misconception exists that all the other recordings in that room are gone and not accessible
This is not true, you can access them and visit them and sit in them and walk around in them
But you have to convince your Thalamus that the Tiger is no longer the most important thing in that Room
You need to calm your Thalamus down and the Thalamus is not fooled by language , so language cannot be used
Its our over association with the dividing separating detached left PFC the imaginary sense of individuality that prevents us being calm enough to see past the Tiger
and PS some Tigers are so scary that the Thalamus locks the memory of the Tiger incident away and prevents the imaginary idea of self from even knowing that it once met a Tiger and its here that everything becomes meaningful
In the end, the need to cling to certain beliefs and creed is a clear evidence of the ego seeking security and struggling with uncertainty. So many people identify strongly with a set of beliefs, "I AM that", and need to immerse in an already preconceived representation of the world as told by some "authority", as is (an example being the litteralists and a lot of "religious" people). The symbols of Enlightenment are everywhere in the bible, yet a majority of people are completely blind, asleep to them because of their need to enforce a psychological security and stay cozy by not shaking up their world view. On the opposite, those who see easily the meaning of the symbols can understand how "unchristian" such persons are. Why is it so important to *associate* with a doctrine? The awaken one sees these patterns of wanting to cling to ideas, beliefs, identity, etc and knows how it is strangling the power and intelligence of the self, so he learns to breath out. In my opinion, if you understand deeply the meaning of some of the biblical symbols, one consequence is that you don't need to call yourself a christian, and most importantly you move on and start living.
The very first symbol is Sheep, Wolves and Shepard's
Excellent description of biblical symbolism. Much appreciated. Thank you.
That was very Impressive. Subscribed.
So grateful that I was introduced to you via the videos you were part of in Dr. Peterson's Biblical Series - Now I have yet another playlist in the making, this one specifically your videos and "Pageau/Peterson overlap content, etc...(with others, including your brother" - Thanks so much. PS - pleased to see, during my short glance at the comments section as the video was starting, some non-traditional RUclips comments sections activity. I just found out about you, your book, etc., last night, so I'm about to see if the book has been published yet - I hope the anticipation of it doesn't raise cortisol levels if it isn't published yet - I'm sure an astounding number of people are very anxious to get it - and I do mean get it - I'm sure this will be one I want a hard copy of (I want a print copy of everything, but.... thank God for audiobooks as well. I'll stop rabbiting on now... Thank you for your work, and punching that non-existent clock, which writers (who aren't cut out to have no clock to punch, usually) must force themselves to find, with no help from those pills from "Limitless". Thanks again and best regards to you and yours, grats on the family, I see you have one from the glance I took at the comments already.
"in search of the miraculous!" PD Ouspensky
We left this stuff just for people like you start here
I,m a big fan of bart eihrman (splchk). I always found it odd that his studies led him to atheism. I read Misquoting Jesus , and it didn't challenge my faith, but kind of informed it.. He's such a great scholar,(preeminent IMO) and really cleared up problematic areas of the new testament. He also felt it necessary to write a book detailing the evidence that Jesus a real person. A genuine historical figure. If nothing else.
Amazing explanations, I am really grateful for you being here and offering your knowledge. God bless you!
Very profound. Thank you, Mr. Pageau :)
This is making me think so deeply. Thank you.
With regard to the arguments for historicity of the resurrection of Christ, check out arguments by William Lane Craig, if you want more analytical approach.
He is terrible.
WLC is a beast. His scholarship is astounding.
Yeah, he’s pretty good.
Kalam justification for the belief in God explained here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalam_cosmological_argument
Depends on whether you buy the idea that the purely physical, non- living world must have a motivation to exist. The only evidence of any ulterior motivation lies with living beings - which are fundamentally motivated to reproduce.
You can chose to believe that God is a symptom of life ( we explain our motivation to reproduce as being our 'fathers' motivation handed on to us), or you can believe life is a symptom of God (all of reality is spewed forth by the great motivational force).
Either way, He seems to be a part of what we experience as reality, and must also, by nature of him being superior to all, he must transcend reality.
So no effective difference ?
EXCEPT... if He doesn't exist if/when life doesn't exist, that is if He is a symptom of life, then He cannot be transcendent of the physical world.
Jung referred to Him as "the God figure'.
Unable to make a decision or assumption either way, Jung acknowledged God as an intrinsic part of the human experience - it being pointless to deny Him and useful (to say the least) to have Him around for many many reasons.
I think this video is incredible, having the power to completely shift a person’s understanding of what is real. Amazing.
"In things like movies and videos games, the story of the resurection is every where if you can see it"
LEGEND OF ZELDA BREATH OF THE WILD.
The hero literally wakes up after 100 years in the "Cave of Resurrection"
I never played it. But a friend said it was one of, if not the best game
ever!
The whole human narrative is echoing eternally via the cortices Mum to daughter
Its the Roman and Arabian Slavers that taught you to ignore the wives tales as stuff and nonsense and that truth is written
Yes the Slavers are the ones who taught us what to believe
Slavers , ill say it again Slavers
YOU, sir, just gave me air to breathe.
3 phonecalls ? 3 children? Illuminati confirmed
omglolzbbqsauce *cue X Files music...
Exactly
If by which you mean God is the Illuminati😜
Only God could have manifested all those synchronisities.
And you omglolz have 33 likes on your comment so yes indeed you must be one too ;)
PhoenixRising323 Susan Burnley You don’t understand God’s role.
It's so hard to listen to you because you're so nice to watch and I love the way you speak. Then, when I finally do grasp what you're saying... it's even more intense!
16:40 and yet Paul states very strongly in 1 Cor 2:4-5 and many other places that it was precisely through experiencing literal supernatural events the way the a witness to a murder would witness it, that he spread the faith. This does not preclude these actions from being symbolic, but their relevance supercedes the symbolism.
Your comment is hilarious. Read that whole chapter again. I don't think it means what you think it means. In the whole chapter he speaks of the revelation of hidden mysteries, "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived", he talks about knowing the thoughts of God revealed by the Spirit and speaks of having the mind of Christ. Hilarious that you would interpret such a lofty text by using the word "literal supernatural events" as if those three words put together were not sufficiently contradictory in themselves.
Thank you for your reply.
I reread the passage. The "secret and hidden wisdom of God" (I'm using RSVCE) is for the "mature" but when he first "came to" the Corinthians they were immature like a baby unable to eat meat as St. Paul says in 3:1-3. So the "demonstration of the Spirit and power" is not the same thing as the "hidden wisdom." In fact is it juxtaposed with wisdom, a worldly wisdom yes but still wisdom. The reason that Paul "came to" them with "demonstration of the Spirit and power" and "not lofty words or wisdom" is made clear in chapter 1:22 "For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom". He came to them like a Jew in order to stand in contradiction to the teaching of the philosophers, after all just before St. Paul came to Corinth in Acts 18:1ff he had just been embarrassed by Greek philosophers in Athens Acts 17:16-34. Therefore these "demonstration of the Spirit and power" are signs like a Jew would demand. What kind of sign would a Jew demand? Well according to Mk 8:11-12 it is a supernatural event to show his ability to master the laws of the universe and in John 4:46-54 the literal healing of a dying son. When they come looking for signs in John 6 Jesus says they are interested in filling their stomachs, that was the draw for the immature, only then does he try to draw them into the hidden wisdom of the mature.
I also want to add I mean no disrespect by my first comment on this video (I don't know if you read it), I just get frustrated with double speak amongst what we Catholics call Modernists. It's ok if that is how you feel about it or if you don't feel that way, I just wish people would be explicit on this topic.
I believe Christ is risen from the dead according to the scripture. I hope that is enough for you.
I certainly respect what I imagine in charity is your unwillingness to put the mysteries of God in a box, and that it is very likely limiting your ability/willingness to speak because of course we speak in delineated categories. Nor do I want to push you beyond what you feel morally comfortable with, there have been one of two Catholic dogmas to which I have assented to like this (as in I don't know what that means but I think that it is true), and I think that you mean it with no intended subterfuge.
My concern is that there are many Protestants and Catholics (or at least those who call themselves Protestants and Catholics) who would say those very words but mean nothing more than "The Church/members thereof is/are less morally evil than it/they has/have been in the past" or in the case of Hegel something like "Humanity's self-awareness of the connection of the human mind to the laws of the universe continues to be synthesized in the collective consciousness". Those two things (esp. the first) may very well be symbolic meanings of the Resurrection and in that sense "what the Resurrection means" and the Resurrection may be their efficient cause perhaps even formal cause, but they are not "the event". And as far as I can tell it is the event that St. Paul is talking about in 1 Cor 15.
Sir, what you are doing is important beyond description, we live in the most prosperous time in human history but we find ourselves more lost then ever, weve adopted this idea that salvation is purely material and that we are purely physical beings that weve forgot what animates us and inturn lost our souls in the process and what you and Dr Peterson are doing is resurrecting our souls again, God bless you sir
Awesome. Thank you!
Beautiful video. Thank you for eveything jonathan
Can you recommend a good introductory book on icons and iconography?
those that know don't reveal those that don't know write books about guessing
The answers were left by the ancient's in your cortices echoing Mum to daughter eternally
but The Roman Slavers taught you to focus on lies written in books and that those words are the literal truth
Those Slavers EH! so simple to discredit a teaching, that needs to be encoded as part of the lesson , to teach the children in schools that words are to be taken literally
This is really beautiful. I still find myself drawn to a sort of mereological nihilism because of the very fact that it is OUR attention which organizes reality as such. Being-in-itself still seems very much like a vapor to me, rather than the fundament of what is. This leads me to a sort of reductionism, where those patterns are the result of what is below, rather than what is above.
I still think this is one of the very best formulations of the Christian perspective I've ever heard, and it makes me want to buy into the totality, but I still find myself impeded by those previously articulated hang-ups.
All those signs and coincidences re: a new born child. Awesome! I was given a premonition one year in advance that my father would die. (and I'm not a mystical person) It's something very real. I've been getting these "vibes" about my own death lately. I'm trying to get my house in order.
Love your talk Jonathan. God bless your efforts and you. (I got steered in your direction through Paul VanderKlay, and Jordan Peterson)
How are you doing now man?
@@ThiagoCT9 Still alive. :)
@@kennorthunder2428 Still Alive?
@@surfbirdie5759 I am. Yes
Wow, beautiful analysis brother. Downloaded and subscribed.
The Bible is allegory, parables, symbolism and metaphors to make spiritual points. God is within us all.
Jeff Mullins I almost 100% agree with you - but, no, they don’t have to have Actually happened. Let’s take Jesus’ parables for examples ... He didn’t suggest they were factual accounts of real historical events; but they did have points to them which were TRUTH.
However, having said that, I do believe the things recorded in scripture AS FACTS, are indeed factual in the normal everyday sense ... no matter how many extra layers or aspects of meta-meanings, symbolism, allegory, morals, dogma, truth or hints they may contain or hint at.
So, again: D - All of the above. 😁
What you are describing is New Age spirituality (with roots from theosophy and Kabbalah)... NOT Christianity
I am always glad I found your channel. Thank you for all your analyses.
I was an atheist for a while. Recently I had come back around to spirituality but I still held some skepticism against Christianity. My entire view of the bible changed when a friend from college told me that the bible ought not to be read literally. He personally loves the idea of the bible being "the best story ever told" because that phrase reminds him that whether or not the events in the bible are historically accurate, they still have meaning beyond their historical accuracy. He opened my eyes to that it doesn't matter whether or not Jesus was actually real because whats important is that the story of Jesus is real.
So your friend is praying to someone he doesn't think is real?
gshooting Saying that god is real is such a loaded statement. God exists beyond real and unreal. God is beyond our comprehension. Trying to say that god is real is just as inaccurate as saying god isn’t real. The nature of humans and our words will never be enough to say exactly what the nature of god is. And I do not know if my friend prays but I’ll speak for myself when I say that I don’t see prayer as an act that one does but rather a a state of mind that one comes into.
If you read the Bible though, then you know that Paul warns that denying Jesus’ resurrection basically makes the faith useless. He wasn’t being symbolic. None of them were. It really does matter that Jesus is real, otherwise it really is “cleverly invented stories.” Otherwise, Christ died for nothing and you’re still in your sins because you don’t believe that he actually removed them…that you’re still your own source of righteousness. That tendency toward hyper spiritual interpretation isn’t Christianity, but Gnosticism.
thankyou jonathan. i may well join in with one of your classes on the new university! all best wishes for that. the four levels are also used in astrology and in understanding and indeed using its symbolic world for purposes of revealing divine wisdom. its amazing how all these worlds of truth meet no matter what particular lens we come to them. Richard
Mr. Pageau,We cannot treat the symbolism of Genesis the same as the narrative telling of the gospels and the resurrection. While one could give much space to saying Adam may not be a literal Adam, because of the content, the age of the story, etc. The gospel narrative is much, much closer to a crime scene than your give credit. Jesus and his resurrection account is not a metaphor, symbolic or psychotic experience. It was real, physical, in the domain of time and space and yet outside that domain as well, as understood by his risen, glorified body that could eat, appear and walkthrough walls. If you believe the Gospel accounts of the risen Jesus were imaginations of what they believed, then so be it. They are NOT, however, in the same nuance that Peterson projects Genesis stories, that being traditions of being and logos. In essence, the coming of Christ, literally, is the fulfillment of that archtype, prophetic fulfillment, and transcendent reality. With the coming of Jesus, the archtypes are gone because they are fulfilled. Note the whole OT sacrificial system that pointed to the sins of Israel being cleansed by a sacrificial lamb were fulfilled by the ultimate sacrificial lamb, the real blood of Jesus was spilled, not symbolically... though the OT symbolism is seen as intended. So the question becomes, Why not interpret scripture as literal where it suggests and symbolic where it suggests? To have to force all scripture into non-literal symbolism is as bad as all literal, true? As humans, we want the benefits of truth, but not the price to have it. Jesus told the parable about the man who found a large pearl and sold all he had to get it. We must sell off our ideas of human diety, skepticism of a holy God who judges, and pursue the person of God? My 2C, thanks for your thoughts.DR
I am equally frustrated by his ambiguity, but why can't they be both literal and symbolic. Like when I make love to my wife, I'm literally and symbolically giving myself to her. We are literally and symbolically being joined together. If the archetypes are fulfilled then why aren't they more real now than ever?
Jonty Campbell, and yet the logos behind the Christian mythos explicitly denies that this is merely the case. If it is true then Christianity is a fundamentally bad myth.
"mere" as in nothing more than. Myth is very important but something could be more than a myth, and thus not merely a myth. My wife is a great mother and a great lover. Both of those are of fundamental importance and not be trifled with, but she could be merely a good mother, implying not that being a mother is not important but that she is not also the other thing.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "bad meaning...?" Is it how could a myth be bad or how is this myth bad?
Jonty Campbell, Your two comments are incongruous. If Christianity were simply a myth to the point that "whether God exists or not is not a useful question" or "You won’t gain any new converts by treating the bible [such as the Resurrection] as ACTUAL, historical occurrences" the Christianity is a mere myth.
I'm aware that you are using myth to mean story, and behind every myth is a logos (meaning/moral/abstract principle behind the particulars). For example that habitable order is formed out of chaos is a logos of the Gen 1 myth. Although if I remember correctly he doesn't point out that mythoi have logoi behind them, Jean Pierre Vernant is a good place to look to understand this distinction, although I expect you are either already familiar with it or else get it without needing extra reading (still he is quite good).
The problem is that an inextricable part of the logos behind the Christian myth is that the historical particulars matter. This is in direct contradiction to Greco-Roman Philosophy which held that God (assuming that is an adequate referent) did not even know that particulars existed. He was completely consumed by abstractions and particularity was at best an inferior necessity of the divine overflowing and at worst the positively evil result of pride. By contrast Christianity claims that God not only is aware of the particulars, but deeply loves them and acts intentionally (as Maimonides mockingly puts it as "the purpose of one who purposes -- I believe he is referencing Isaiah but I can't find the passage at the moment) in relation to them. It's for this reason that it is only the Christian Philosopher Boethius who begins asking if God can know the future. The idea that God even knew the present or past was absurd to the Pagan Philosopher.
You see this most fundamentally in the incarnation where the Logos become a particular historical person ("was made flesh" Jn 1), Who was born in a particular time and place ("In the days of King Herod . . .when Quirin′i-us was governor of Syria" Lk 1-2). He died a particular death and according to 1 Cor 15 rose a particular resurrection, without which "our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain" which He did amongst other reasons because He "loved [the particular, Paul of Tarsus] and gave himself for [the particular, Paul of Tarsus]" (Gal 2).
This is not only seen in the NT but also in the OT as well, where God calls a particular man (Abraham) who is asked to sacrifice his particular son (Isaac) and chooses a particular brother (Jacob) to create a particular people (Israel) over all the other peoples (gentiles). And this particular people awaited a particular Messiah (Jesus of Nazareth) son of the Particular King (David) with his particular dynasty, which Messiah fundamentally taught them the Logos is an intentional servant of particular humans, indeed "the great lover of mankind" as the liturgy of John Chrysostom put it, which God is known from all the other gods because He is the God of those very particular men, "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."
So if "whether ANY religious figure ACTUALLY existed or not . . . is not a useful question" then Christianity is a fundamentally and deeply flawed mythos because it conveys a fundamentally false logos.
Jonty Campbell, 1. I'm aware that myth as a genre conveys meaning which is true regardless of whether or not the narrative itself is historically accurate. But it is the nature of the Christian myth that if its narrative does not also happen to be historically accurate then its profound "verity" is actually a falsity. For example, the profound verities of Rapunzel is something along the lines of: "In order for a girl who is in the grasp of an Oedipal mother to transition to being a woman she must be whisked away by an unruly man whom she civilizes through marriage and fatherhood," and that "the motivating factor of the Oedipal mother is the fear of losing her youth by become a grandmother." These two things can be true whether or not there ever was such a person as Rapunzel. However, one of the profound verities of the Christian myth is "The Divine is personally concerned with the lives of historically particular individuals." It conveys this verity through examples. If these examples are not historically accurate, indeed if the historicity is irrelevant, it puts the lie to this profound verity. This profound verity cannot be true unless the narrative is historically accurate. This profound verity is at the heart of the Christian myth; if Pageau does not realize this, and I fear he doesn't, then he is mistaken.
2. I suspect it is accurate to say that when logos meets chaos it orders it and the ordering of chaos is creation. I would point out though that in the story humans are made in the image and likeness of God, which means that we are not the things which primarily speak order into chaos. There is a transcendent principal capable of speech such that by the mere act of speaking what He says happens. Our speech is creative only insofar as it mimics His, as an image (is in accord with reality or true). His speech is true by fiat, ours is true by mimesis. Also it might help you to look into the difference between logos endiathetos and logos prophorikos.
Thanks I’d never thought about the resurrection in this way it’s really Helpful
Just to be clear: to the question of do you believe Jesus was a historical individual who physically rose from the dead at a particular time (in the way atheists and most people think of it), your answer is no?
You answer yes to whether you the "event" occurred, but your definition of the event is different from the way most people conceive it. When the question is asked, most people take the event to mean the Jesus and Resurrection as described in the Bible, taken literally.
I love your content, but I think it would be helpful to make clear that your answer is no, to the way the question is commonly understood. Otherwise, many people will walk away feeling confused, and the secular types will accuse you of obfuscation.
I believe you misunderstood what he said. From what he says he does believe the resurrection is a literal event. His mention of it was saying it's not described. It's not told the exact model of how it happens, and he continues that it doesn't need that type of forensic description. And the description isn't important. But it is taken as a real historical event.
@@isaiahpoe Precisely, and to use our relatively modern ways of doing history is at odds with how the stories are meant to be perceived. Yes, Christ did ressurect, but to boil it down to a set up observable factors such as time and place, and to know the intimate details of how it happened all misses the point. In fact, you reduce the Truth to something much meaner and in essence less true. We cannot expect the world and the eternal to conform to our utterly finite and limited ways of perception.
It all comes down to the meaning of words in the context of Christianity. As Jonathan said in other videos, it's all symbolic. It's never litteral. It's never metaphorical. It's only symbolic. What does that mean? It means that the event itself happened symbolically. And it's still happening right now as we speak and it has always happened. It's timeless. There is no physicality to it. The Bible is the story of how our brain created the world we live in. It's the story of how an ape became aware of itself. It's a story on how to behave in the context of our evolution from animals to something more. It's a praise to humanity and it's a social tool.
So, did Jesus rose from the dead?
It's all packed like a software is compiled.
What is the meaning of "Jesus"?
What is the meaning of "rose"?
What is the meaning of "death"?
What is the meaning of "event"?
What is the meaning of "body"?
It's a program made out of a complex set of subroutines called "jesus", "rose", "death", "event", "body", etc, and only the combination of all of those makes up the whole story. The more you unpack each of these subroutines, the more you understand what is the true meaning of resurrection.
Here is an anlogy: When you open spotify and play a Mozart piece, did spotify really played mozart music?
It's a complex system of Software + Speakers + Recording + Rewriting of scores + Mozart writing the music + what is creativity + etc etc
You can unpack eveything and then, maybe you'll have the full answer. So, did spotify just played some Mozart music? You can say yes, it happened, you heard it. Or you can be cynical and say that no, it wasn't really mozart, it's only a program and it wasnt real instruments in front of you, we can't know if the song was played perfectly, etc etc etc. But our brain doesn't work like that. It makes generalisation so we can make something useful out of all the information we have.
It's all symbolic. Never litteral. Never metaphorical.
I believe the Bible is written in a way that you can get something out of every level of unpacking. New atheists are mad at the first degrees of interpretation because our society (in it's own first degree of interpretation) has nothing to do with the societies back then. But when you digg a little (into both our own values and the Bible messages), the story is still the same. Nothing has changed. We are still humans. And that's the story of the Bible.
Have you read the Bible? How is it a story of evolution if God created man in his image?
One can believe man created God, or, God created man. How can nothing create something?
Your comment is like me saying Charles Darwin’s book is about salvation by faith in Christ? You can interpret the Bible however you please but at the end of the day there is one absolute truth. One person believes when we die there will be ‘nothing’ and another believes in a judgement; both cannot exist.
@@AlexxTehGreat The judgement at the end of someone's life is real. If you do bad things, people will most likely remember you as a bad person. If you do great things, people will most likely remember you as a good person. Men didnt created God nor did God created men. God IS men. Men IS God. God is the SYMBOL of what humankind is.
When "God" judges you at the end of time, it's MANKIND who judges you. It's just a reminder that you should do good in life. Hell is a concept added to christianity that was "stolen" from ancient Egyptian religion. Much like the date of birth of Jesus, corresponding to winter equinoxe... it's all old school religion based on the study of the movement of stars in the sky adapted to the new christian religion. It's all symbolic, never litteral. You will not "litterally" burn in hell and feel physical pain after you die... but God (humankind) might