The sadness for me as a Catholic, is we have great admiration for our Orthodox brethern, especially the ones holding strong in hostile countries, yet we do not get the love in return.
I understand that. In my experience, the love is just different than what we are hoping for. The Internet is full of hatters, so don't expect love there. however, one on one is often very different. Orthodox are very concerned with what is happening in the Catholic Church (understandably so), and Latin Catholics often don't have hostility, but there is an unknown bias that rubs the Orthodox in the wrong way, especially when it seems like Latin supremacy. Byzantine Catholics often just think like Latins or secretly just wish they were Orthodox, and that is equally annoying to them. I have heard stuff like "who cares about the Orthodox; they are insignificant." The Orthodox have been very consistent with what they hold, so this kind of arrogance is really offensive. The short of it, it will take time for healing and it can only be done when we are honest about our own inadequacies, willing to engage with challenging questions, and show the love of Christ, which when reviled does not revile back.
Why I am Eastern Catholic myself. I couldn’t stomach the either/or attitude in both TLM and EOC crowds. I choose to “breathe with both lungs”, of East and West, as encouraged by Pope St. John Paul II. Glory to Jesus!
As I Greek Catholic, I have to say I am generally treated better by my Orthodox brethren than by Roman Catholics, who with amazing regularity call me a heretic, or a schismatic, and usually finish by asking me why I just don't become Orthodox. To that, I respond, "I am ALREADY Orthodox. I just happen to be in communion with the Church of Rome. With the nearest Melkite parish ninety miles away, I regularly attend Liturgy at the local OCA parish. Everybody knows who and what I am, and they treat me with great kindness. Recently, the pastor asked me why I just don't become Orthodox. I responded, "What would I believe or do differently?", which stumped him for a bit. Finally, he blurted, "Well, you could receive communion". I did not say it, but wanted to turn around the question and ask him, since he obviously thinks I am Orthodox in faith and belief, why doesn't he give me communion. But I think he realized the ridiculousness of the situation. As my Melkite bishop once said, "We have almost everything in common with the Orthodox Church except full communion; and almost nothing in common with the Latin Church, except full communion. My daughter was in Romania as a teenager, working at an orphanage run by an Orthodox monastery. One day, she asked the Abbot if she could receive communion. He said, "Why not?", and she replied that, in America, many Orthodox won't give communion to Greek Catholics. To which he replied, "But that is silly. They are the same thing". And that was that.
@@danieldefonce Sounds like a very Ruthenian attitude. However, a Tradition is a way of life, and you cannot pick and choose elements from one or the other and patch together some "third way". But this does explain why, in some Church's, Vatica II's call for de-latinization has fallen on deaf ears.
I have often considered what the papacy offers as an Orthodox Christian, as I have seen the challenges of not having one. We Orthodox cannot call a council as noted in the recent one in Crete. We schism more readily. We lost Rome as the final court of appeals. What keeps me Orthodox are the problems with Vatican II concerning religious liberty and the liturgical revolution in the Roman Rite. I also worry about some of the recent papal encyclicals and moral modernism. I wish it was not this way for both of us. Lord, have mercy.
I see all Christians as one. We ought to see each rite and seek out each one's foundation on Christ and his apostles.Each one has its different but they all taste salty
Both churches have their own set of problems and crisis' as you mention - its quite distressing but then a priest friend told me we weren't promised stability. Let us pray for each other, brothers in Christ.
My main concern would be that historically Rome has been antagonistic to Orthodoxy and has forcibly tried to concert many Orthodox to Catholicism. As far as I know, there has been no acknowledgement or apology for this. I understand that there has been a significant change since JPII, but I always feel like the Orthodox need to be a bit guarded and skeptical when it comes to engaging with Rome.
As someone who’s been torn between Catholicism and orthodoxy for 2 years this was a very helpful video. I find myself aligning with your perspective the most.
Guys, thanks so much for the conversation. I (ByzCath) look very forward to future episodes. Your candor in admitting our limitations and your brotherly love toward the Orthodox is really inspiring. We need more of this on the internet. I'm also glad to see our priests getting out there and talking about the Byzantine Catholic Church and what it has to offer to the religious landscape.
Great intelligent conversation. I am looking forward to things to come from this channel. My feelings, spirit, and struggles were reflected in this talk (to an extent) thank you Fathers for your time and insights.
What a fantastic honest video , near the end out of nowhere i was overcome with such a sadness and grief that East and West are in schism and im not ashamed to say i cried , i dont know where it came from but i was so moved. God bless you both , i will be praying for unity and healing.
Pray the Jesus prayer, go to confession, receive communion; pray for your bishops and priests. Our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ prayed for His church to be united. He is not a liar. Some day by His mercy, we will be again.
I long to live among a unified church. My heart yearns to see a day where in any given town in America, all the Christians gather together under the name of Christ and do His work together. I am jealous of those who grew up in a place and time where Christian brotherhood was as salient and tangible as ethnic brotherhood.
As someone raised Roman Catholic and a convert to Eastern Orthodoxy for 24 years now, the biggest issues that I have with Eastern Catholicism/Byzantine Catholics is that when we sit down to have that conversation about how y’all are able to reconcile the differences theologically. And when you push the Byzantine Catholic into a wall between a rock and hard place where they need to choose between venerating Severus who anathematize St Pope Leo, and vice versa. We start getting answers from the Byzantine Catholics along the lines of bad ecumenism like “Well…. We know there are differences and it’s ok to be different, but we are united in love and even though our theology isn’t reconcilable, we just leave it aside for the sake of unity.” And I say this with great humility and respect to both sides, but that’s not acceptable. We aren’t here to hold hands and sing koombaya. The theological issues that remain, need to be dealt with and reconciled before anyone pushes for a unification. A unification where both sides takes their differences and say “it’s ok! We’ll just not talk about it and it’ll go away.” Isn’t a solution to the schism.
I agree, that is not acceptable. I am building a slow case here, but I absolutely intend to address the major issues. I am starting with ecclesiology because it is something always on my mind, Christian unity. Eventually, I will need to deal with the theological disputes because without united faith we are falling way short of catholic unity.
I'll give you a little glimpse of how I will answer your particular question, but only a glimpse: The episode will be called something like "what makes a Saint." I'll probably round table this question (like the first episode) so I can focus on teaching.
“What makes a saint” would be a good starting point. Who and where are your Byzantine Catholic saints ? Where are your wonderworking saints like St. John Maximovich and St. Gabriel the fool for Christ of Georgia? There is an enormous continuous Orthodox hagiography stretching back to the apostles that leads up through our present day. The fact that this is lacking in Byzantine Catholicism seems to be a sign something is missing. Many of you also openly venerate our post schism saints like St Seraphim of Sarov and St Gregory Palamas, which also begs the question : if we Orthodox have so many saints who are outside of Rome, then why is Rome necessary?
@@Zorthroz-p4beven if we point to the saints that exist in the Catholic Church post GS you’d invalidate it from an EO perspective. This is the pigeon on the chess board problem. In my understanding, this is not lacking. I’ve personally met men within the church that, if their story were widely known, or the feats they’ve accomplished and the means by which they did so, they’d be venerated as wonder workers or fools or insert other title. Does your specific EO church recognizing someone as a saint make them truly sanctified? What about the other EO or OO church your specific communion doesn’t recognize? They’re invalid as well for the men that pursued Christ in good and meaningful ways? This attitude of the spirit only operates inside the bounds of my communion, and everything beyond that is clearly prelest, is simply contradictory with the good fruits these other churches can produce. Be it some other form of EO that’s not yours, OO, BC, RC, etc. Like, just take a step back and realize that you’re contributing far too much objective good to the evil one. I can’t see how that remains congruent in your mind.
@@Zorthroz-p4b St. Charbel Makhlouf is a wonderworking saint, St. Mariam Thresia Chiramel was a holy, mystical nun who had the gift of healing, Blessed Vladimir Ghika is said to also have healed the sick and cured barrenness, or Blessed Beshara Abou Mrad was a zealous worker whose apostolic zeal imitated the Apostles as did Blessed Hieromartyrs Kyr Mykola Charnetsky and Zynoviy Kovalyk.
I remember the archdiocese of Los Angeles had a list of Eastern Catholic churches but I can't find them anymore. Does anyone have a resource to find a church and either San Bernardino county or LA county?
St Philip the Apostle Melkite Catholic Church is in San Bernardino and then there's St Nicholas of Myra Byzantine Catholic Church a little west in Fontana. The rest are in LA proper and quite a commute.
@@TinaICXCNIKA They wouldn't have a listing since they are not Roman Catholic. You have to look up the particular Eastern Church's Eparchy. For example, all the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Churches (commonly referred to as Byzantine Catholic Churches) are part of the Eparchy of Phoenix. You need to go to their website to see a listing.
Thank you for such a gracious conversation! Thank you for acknowledging the real issues that exist between the Churches. We must face honesty the canonical pretzel that exists among jurisdictions and the tendency towards schism when dealing with disputes. We must face the discipline of the holy mysteries, especially in marriage and artificial contraception. We have to stop treating all other Christians, even those in other jurisdictions like catechumens. Quietism and its attendant doctrines present a thorny issue between the Churches. Finally, the ethnic/national insular enclaves that are openly hostile towards one another challenge us all. I’ll add the open sheep stealing that operate in some “missionary” jurisdictions has to stop. I firmly believe that with humility and honesty, we can overcome any challenge. Thank you for modeling this for us.
@@SearchersoftheLostThe million dollar question that needs to be answered is this. Why did the Orthodox Churches leave Eastern Orthodoxy and enter communion with the Roman Catholic Church at the Council of Brest in the 1500s. Was it for theological and dogmatic reasons or for political reasons? This will determine if it was a schismatic act or not.
@@vigilantchristian6314there are Byzantine churches that never left communion, mainly those on the peninsula, as the pope was their equivalent patriarch.
The Western rite is in reality that which the Orthodox frequently accuse the Greek Catholics of being=="Uniates", e.g., ritual adjuncts of another Church, with a unique liturgy, but otherwise following the theology and doctrines of the Church to which it is subordinate. The Eastern Catholics today have their own independent ecclesial identity--they are true Churches with their own hierarchy and their own governance. Moreover, for a century and a half, the Church of Rome has been exhorting us to restore the fullness of our Tradition and shed all latinizations, not just in liturgy, but also in theology, spirituality, doctrine and discipline. In contrast, both the liturgies celebrated by the Orthodox Western rites have been "byzantinized" in the same manner as was once the case with Greek Catholic liturgies.
Great conversation, it has been very helpful for me. My impediment to Catholism from Orthodoxy is that Orthodoxy holds unity in a way where propositional assent isn't the essential feature of the Christian life (theologians can even disagree if ecumenical councils are infallible and still fully be Orthodox). But as a Catholic, I can't have dissenting dogmatic beliefs (those de fide tenenda or credenda) and still be a valid, communing Catholic. Since I can't will myself to believe Catholic hamartiology, I'm unable to be part of the Catholic church.
I appreciate the effort you are putting into these videos, Father. I have been in a BCC parish for the better part of 30 years, having initially come as a refugee from the RCC because I can’t stand the Modernism which I believe has destroyed that tradition. Having once left the BCC parish over a eucharistic minister, and being concerned about such things as having altar serving being expanded beyond males, and the antics of Pope Francis, I have struggled mightily with going Orthodox for years. I drive past two Orthodox churches to get to the BCC and there is a third one two blocks away. It would certainly easy enough to do geographically. You identify at 13:45 the reason I don’t pull the trigger on it. I don’t buy the Orthodox line that Grace and valid sacraments do not exist outside canonical Orthodoxy when I have seen evidence to the contrary. I also don’t want to bring a schism into my marriage and family life. You have mentioned Archbishop Elias Zoghby’s book “We are all Schismatics” in both videos you have done now. While Zoghby was motivated by a desire of dual communion with the Orthodox, I use his reasoning as my lifeboat to stay Catholic, especially the second point of his “Initiative”. I know it’s controversial, but at this point I simply don’t care. But enough of the ramble… I would like to thank you again for the work you have put into the videos on this channel. I can’t help but think there are many people who wrestle with the topics you engage.
@@SelfConquest Godspeed brother. Remember, the Big Os get their own controversy and scandal with things like altar servers. Grass isn’t always greener, it’s a trade off of some human problems for another set of human problems. Pray for your priest, bishop, and stay involved in your community so you can steer your priest, lovingly, toward little o orthodoxy.
There's a dated, but still insightful, work by a late Protestant scholar that I'd recommend. It's very scholarly and neutral. The historian makes the point over and over that he's not pro-Catholic or anti-Orthodox but is only following the historical evidence, and that he's only going to use Eastern primary sources and Orthodox and Protestant secondary sources as almost hostile witnesses favoring papal primacy prior to the Photian schism. Source: Sidney H. Scott, "The Eastern Churches and the Papacy," London: Sheed & Ward, 1928. If someone is familiar with this tome and has a valid critique of Dr. Scott's sources, reading, and/or methods I'm open to hearing these.
From what I’ve been told, eastern Catholics don’t recite the Filioque but do affirm it. Why would this be the case? It seems like a good way to confuse the congregation for what they believe. If it’s affirmed, why not recite it?
Imagine the force for good that could be done in this world if the focus were actively changing culture rather arguing over some wording in the Creed? Ridiculous. As a Christian raised in a Protestant tradition, the fact that the leaders of our churches cannot resolve the differences is one of the most troubling things to my faith. Seems like a general lack of humility and an unwillingness to recognize the possibility that there are some things about the faith we cannot know for certain.
Can someone tell me the difference between reason why the orthodox has both the bread and wine (body and blood ) and the catholics have the bread and not the wine the (body but not the blood ) ? If that makes sense?
@@SearchersoftheLostTo piggy back off this question, as someone discerning Catholicism, why do so many Roman Catholic Churches have the blood only as an option? I don’t disagree that Christ is full present in each element. But Christ clearly commands both. Why do they allow separation? Further, why don’t Roman Catholics have infant communion?
Because. back in the 13th century, the Fourth Lateran Council removed the Chalice from the laity, out of fear of profanation, and ruled they could receive just the Body of Christ. Prior to that time, the laity had received the Eucharist in the same manner as the clergy: standing, receiving the Host in cupped hands, then stepping to one side and drinking from the Chalice (held by a deacon). The change had several significant ramifications. First, it marked the introduction of receiving communion on the tongue, while kneeling. Perhaps more significantly, it marked the end of infant communion in the West, because infants cannot ingest solid food, and where prohibited from receiving the Blood of Christ, so it just died out, as collateral damage. All this nonsense about reaching the age of reason began a century later as a post hoc rationalization of the Western Church's altering of what had been the Apostolic Practice. It's significant that the Council of Trent refused to condemn infant communion, merely deeming it "unnecessary", because the same arguments used against infant communion could be, and were, used against infant baptism.
He's been quiet ever since Michael Lofton did a video on him calling him out as a schismatic for saying that he supports Bishop Strickland and insinuating that the Pope is a heretic.
@@EasternChristian1988 probably got a bit of blowback unfortunately. I appreciate the priests that call it like it is. Good, bad, ugly, beautiful, just stop dancing around when you desire for my good and salvation.
Grew up Catholic and converted to Eastern Orthodoxy as an adult. Could’ve chosen the Eastern Catholic route but theologically it’s have your cake and eat it too. Simply saying love and compromise trumps theology to me is inadequate. Healthy boundaries exist for a reason. Which is why I find it ironic how all of a sudden eastern Catholics claim Nestorius is a saint now. To allow more into the fold, you call your councils untrue or holding enough error to anathematize someone incorrectly.
@@akritas1453 this is a fundamental red flag. Syro-Malabarian Catholics have been given permission by the Vatican to continue to venerate Nestorius as a saint even tho it directly contradicts a church council the Catholic Church claims to adhere to. Voice of reason literally said in a video the council was wrong to anathematize Nestorius because he wants to have his cake and eat it too. There are videos of a Syro-Malabarian Catholics mass where they are venerating Nestorius as a saint. You can find both videos on RUclips with a quick search. If you claim to posses Truth you cannot at the same time admit to being that incorrect on such a fundamental level. A church council cannot be wrong to condemn Nestorius as a heretic while also being the guardian of Truth against heresy. Protestants cherry pick like that all the time. Truth has to be objective
Oh boy they read my comment from last time about my life as cradle Roman Catholic turned Byzantine turned eastern Orthodox priests wife and finally Oriental Orthodox - 😅 wow I've become a "reverse influencer" 😅. But they won't mention it, I'm sure. And I'm one who did not ask "the question".
You only said Byzantines are in limbo. If you’d like to expand on what your objections are specifically, I’m sure there are a number of Byzantines who’d raise a defense for the joy the find in Christ and the church.
To best serve Christ? Your making up reasons not to in the first minute. If you deny His Church you deny Christ. if you serve Christ you will serve His Church. You are no more special than I in the eyes of God nor am I over you. If I had to study and learn history to know how to serve God then what makes you not have to? Many who say lord lord will be burning in hell. This is what our God the Word tells us. Good luck brothers I pray you all find His way.
I have an issue with the idea that you are empowered by the Spirit of God, but still constantly refer to yourself as "a sinner" or "messing it up". What Communion does light have with dark? Do you not know that the same Spirit which raised Christ from the dead lives within you? Test yourself, to see whether you are in the faith. For it is said "you will know them by their fruits". Does the Spirit of God drive you to sin? Who are you in Communion with when you sin? It's clear from my experience and understanding that a Son of God does not Sin. It's one of the things that made Jesus unique in this messed up world. Why on earth have the churches spread the lie that we continue in sin? Or that we are sinners post conversion? I pray you can answer this using the Word of God, and not through the teachings of men.
@@bornagainbasics you’re serious? Could you explain this to me. We know there are sins outlined in the old and New Testament. We know that through the sacrament of baptism we are to receive the Holy Spirit Yet, our nature is not erased by God in this instance. We still have the proclivities to miss the mark but gain a co-pilot in essence to guide us. How do you think we can’t miss the mark? To never offend God at all anymore once we’ve been baptized? I can only imagine this as unintelligible levels of hubris to claim baptism perfected you.
@rushmonk3545 I reject the idea that baptism is always fruitful, so unless you've found Christ on your own your baptism just made you a wet sinner. Think about the soldiers in the book of Acts, they required no water to receive the Spirit from Peter's teaching. The Father baptizes us according to the promise in Ezekiel 36:25-27 Upon finding Christ, you're reborn in an instant. The old has passed away and the Spirit of God now resides within the believer. What was once pleasurable is forsaken and God becomes the focus of your life. If you don't know this, then I would suspect you are living a life of sin and going through the motions of a traditionally religious person (like a Muslim). If you have this new life then my initial question would apply and also make sense.
As a former catholic and a catechumen to Orthodoxy, I eventually realized that my communion wasn't at all genuine. By the time I had started reading the way of a pilgrim and basic orthodox beliefs I felt as though I was lying when I was taking the eucharist at the Roman Catholic church. This is because Communion is not only to literally take Christ, but also to literally confess that everyone who takes the communion confesses one faith. What I've seen is that despite the Orthodox, not having so many documents and legal canon laws, seem to have a stronger unity in faith, and many roman catholics wish and desire this unity. But this unity catholics want can turn into poison and become indifferent ecumenism. For the sake of love, not for the sake of hatred, the Orthodox church can't and will not make a union with the catholic church unless there is a true union. And there is a problem with these two lung theories. The church is one, and can't be divided. According to an Orthodox phronema, the church is already one, despite what many catholics say of the political schism in Russia. Even greeks and russians confess a single faith despite the political administration issues. The fullness of the faith is already in the Orthodox church. If Catholics want a true union with the Orthodox church they will have to reject: 1. Papal Infallibility. If Papal Infallibility is true then you guys can't venerate Gregory Palamas, nor any formal schismatics who rejected Catholic councils and magisterium. This was solemnly defined in 'Unam Sanctam' and the 'council of Florence' Any type of nuance that comes with Palamas' veneration are just mental gymnastics to justify orthopraxy in byzantine circles. 2. Papal Supremacy: The pope can be the primate of the Orthodox church, and can even use his authority to excercise jurisdiction outside of his canonical limits through synodality and exhortations like in the early church. He can be, as so to say, the archbishops of archbishops. The earthly head of the church and the synod. But to excercise this authority he must be Orthodox. that is the way in which popes were measured in the early church, by their orthodoxy, despite what many might say. From these objections we can discuss and reform all theological stuff like the Filioque and other papal 'developments'.
Be sure you are converting TO something, and not FROM something else. I've seen too many converts with a reflexive hostility to their previous confession, as some sort of apologia pro vita sub, as opposed to seeing themselves as moving from something good to something better.
@@StuartKoehl Hello dear brother in christ. There is no hate or hostility in my words. The truth of it is, that Orthodoxy is not compatible with the union of Rome everyone presupposes and wants to have. All of the recent orthodox saints are against it, and they are even venerated by eastern catholics. Saint Paisios, Saint Nektarios , Saint Porphyrios and Saint Silouan, just to mention a few, were all against ecumenism and union with Rome. And this they did with humility and with charity.
@ “eastern catholics” are apostates from orthodox Christianity who sold out Christ to the pope for money and security. They are nothing but icons of the betrayal of Christ by Judas.
Right… looking at some of your other posts it seems that you troll YT to find byzantines just to validate your position of EO so that you can reassure yourself you’re in the one true church and anyone else is lacking the spirit. Great use of your ability to evangelize, bud. Reflect on your pride and triumphalism. Maybe not everyone who loves and seeks Christ has to be in your snowflake schism of EO or be damned.
There are Byzantines that were always in communion with Rome. Some came back into communion. I’m not sure church means what you think it means here. Or maybe I’m misunderstanding since it’s a drive by comment. Care to expand?
What we are saying here is not about emotions, though integral anthropology is not to be rejected. I affirm everything taught by the Orthodox and Catholic Church for the first millennium. I am not trying to argue in this episode. In fact, I doubt anybody will change their position based on this podcast. All we are trying to do is offer absolute honesty about why? I know folks are used to polemics, but I love the Holy Orthodox Church. I am not angry; I am only sad.
@@EasternPapist The Orthodox do not reject the papacy. They reject the innovation and heresy of universal jurisdiction (something all Byzantine Catholics ought to reject too, if truth mattered to them at all).
@@SearchersoftheLost If you believe everything the undivided church of the first millennium believed, why can you not publicly and clearly state the historical fact that papal supremacy is an aberration and innovation and NOT the universal belief of the universal church? The fact that the Ruthenian Church refuses to truly be Byzantine in her theology and ecclesiology is why I am heading toward Holy Orthodoxy. I can't live with the cognitive dissonance anymore of trying to be Orthodox in communion with Rome when the reality is that all we are is latin catholics with a funny mass. That's it. Eastern aesthetically insofar as that goes but ultimately we are latins through and through. The Orthodox see the lack of authenticity and run from any idea of communion with us. And a great many Eastern Catholics see this lack of authenticity and ultimately convert to Holy Orthodoxy because of it.
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Great conversation!!
Happy you are here!🙏🛐
The sadness for me as a Catholic, is we have great admiration for our Orthodox brethern, especially the ones holding strong in hostile countries, yet we do not get the love in return.
I understand that. In my experience, the love is just different than what we are hoping for. The Internet is full of hatters, so don't expect love there. however, one on one is often very different. Orthodox are very concerned with what is happening in the Catholic Church (understandably so), and Latin Catholics often don't have hostility, but there is an unknown bias that rubs the Orthodox in the wrong way, especially when it seems like Latin supremacy. Byzantine Catholics often just think like Latins or secretly just wish they were Orthodox, and that is equally annoying to them. I have heard stuff like "who cares about the Orthodox; they are insignificant." The Orthodox have been very consistent with what they hold, so this kind of arrogance is really offensive. The short of it, it will take time for healing and it can only be done when we are honest about our own inadequacies, willing to engage with challenging questions, and show the love of Christ, which when reviled does not revile back.
Why I am Eastern Catholic myself. I couldn’t stomach the either/or attitude in both TLM and EOC crowds. I choose to “breathe with both lungs”, of East and West, as encouraged by Pope St. John Paul II. Glory to Jesus!
As I Greek Catholic, I have to say I am generally treated better by my Orthodox brethren than by Roman Catholics, who with amazing regularity call me a heretic, or a schismatic, and usually finish by asking me why I just don't become Orthodox. To that, I respond, "I am ALREADY Orthodox. I just happen to be in communion with the Church of Rome.
With the nearest Melkite parish ninety miles away, I regularly attend Liturgy at the local OCA parish. Everybody knows who and what I am, and they treat me with great kindness. Recently, the pastor asked me why I just don't become Orthodox. I responded, "What would I believe or do differently?", which stumped him for a bit. Finally, he blurted, "Well, you could receive communion". I did not say it, but wanted to turn around the question and ask him, since he obviously thinks I am Orthodox in faith and belief, why doesn't he give me communion. But I think he realized the ridiculousness of the situation.
As my Melkite bishop once said, "We have almost everything in common with the Orthodox Church except full communion; and almost nothing in common with the Latin Church, except full communion.
My daughter was in Romania as a teenager, working at an orphanage run by an Orthodox monastery. One day, she asked the Abbot if she could receive communion. He said, "Why not?", and she replied that, in America, many Orthodox won't give communion to Greek Catholics. To which he replied, "But that is silly. They are the same thing". And that was that.
@@SearchersoftheLost I have more Orthodox than Roman Catholic friends, and am generally treated better by them, as well.
@@danieldefonce Sounds like a very Ruthenian attitude. However, a Tradition is a way of life, and you cannot pick and choose elements from one or the other and patch together some "third way". But this does explain why, in some Church's, Vatica II's call for de-latinization has fallen on deaf ears.
I have often considered what the papacy offers as an Orthodox Christian, as I have seen the challenges of not having one. We Orthodox cannot call a council as noted in the recent one in Crete. We schism more readily. We lost Rome as the final court of appeals. What keeps me Orthodox are the problems with Vatican II concerning religious liberty and the liturgical revolution in the Roman Rite. I also worry about some of the recent papal encyclicals and moral modernism. I wish it was not this way for both of us. Lord, have mercy.
I see all Christians as one. We ought to see each rite and seek out each one's foundation on Christ and his apostles.Each one has its different but they all taste salty
Both churches have their own set of problems and crisis' as you mention - its quite distressing but then a priest friend told me we weren't promised stability. Let us pray for each other, brothers in Christ.
Vatican II was a great council - there's nothing to fear except for "modernism" fear mongering alarmism.
My main concern would be that historically Rome has been antagonistic to Orthodoxy and has forcibly tried to concert many Orthodox to Catholicism. As far as I know, there has been no acknowledgement or apology for this. I understand that there has been a significant change since JPII, but I always feel like the Orthodox need to be a bit guarded and skeptical when it comes to engaging with Rome.
Rome has bent over to incorporate Orthodoxy, but the won't have it. That they may be one.
As someone who’s been torn between Catholicism and orthodoxy for 2 years this was a very helpful video. I find myself aligning with your perspective the most.
Guys, thanks so much for the conversation. I (ByzCath) look very forward to future episodes. Your candor in admitting our limitations and your brotherly love toward the Orthodox is really inspiring. We need more of this on the internet. I'm also glad to see our priests getting out there and talking about the Byzantine Catholic Church and what it has to offer to the religious landscape.
Great intelligent conversation. I am looking forward to things to come from this channel. My feelings, spirit, and struggles were reflected in this talk (to an extent) thank you Fathers for your time and insights.
What a fantastic honest video , near the end out of nowhere i was overcome with such a sadness and grief that East and West are in schism and im not ashamed to say i cried , i dont know where it came from but i was so moved. God bless you both , i will be praying for unity and healing.
I know the feeling all to well. I think the Lord grieves over his broken body
Glory to Jesus Christ! I’m so happy you’ve decided to do episodes like this. It’s a blessing to listen and learn.
Pray the Jesus prayer, go to confession, receive communion; pray for your bishops and priests. Our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ prayed for His church to be united. He is not a liar. Some day by His mercy, we will be again.
I long to live among a unified church.
My heart yearns to see a day where in any given town in America, all the Christians gather together under the name of Christ and do His work together.
I am jealous of those who grew up in a place and time where Christian brotherhood was as salient and tangible as ethnic brotherhood.
Finally another episode!
As someone raised Roman Catholic and a convert to Eastern Orthodoxy for 24 years now, the biggest issues that I have with Eastern Catholicism/Byzantine Catholics is that when we sit down to have that conversation about how y’all are able to reconcile the differences theologically. And when you push the Byzantine Catholic into a wall between a rock and hard place where they need to choose between venerating Severus who anathematize St Pope Leo, and vice versa.
We start getting answers from the Byzantine Catholics along the lines of bad ecumenism like “Well…. We know there are differences and it’s ok to be different, but we are united in love and even though our theology isn’t reconcilable, we just leave it aside for the sake of unity.”
And I say this with great humility and respect to both sides, but that’s not acceptable.
We aren’t here to hold hands and sing koombaya. The theological issues that remain, need to be dealt with and reconciled before anyone pushes for a unification. A unification where both sides takes their differences and say “it’s ok! We’ll just not talk about it and it’ll go away.” Isn’t a solution to the schism.
I agree, that is not acceptable. I am building a slow case here, but I absolutely intend to address the major issues. I am starting with ecclesiology because it is something always on my mind, Christian unity. Eventually, I will need to deal with the theological disputes because without united faith we are falling way short of catholic unity.
I'll give you a little glimpse of how I will answer your particular question, but only a glimpse: The episode will be called something like "what makes a Saint." I'll probably round table this question (like the first episode) so I can focus on teaching.
“What makes a saint” would be a good starting point. Who and where are your Byzantine Catholic saints ? Where are your wonderworking saints like St. John Maximovich and St. Gabriel the fool for Christ of Georgia? There is an enormous continuous Orthodox hagiography stretching back to the apostles that leads up through our present day. The fact that this is lacking in Byzantine Catholicism seems to be a sign something is missing. Many of you also openly venerate our post schism saints like St Seraphim of Sarov and St Gregory Palamas, which also begs the question : if we Orthodox have so many saints who are outside of Rome, then why is Rome necessary?
@@Zorthroz-p4beven if we point to the saints that exist in the Catholic Church post GS you’d invalidate it from an EO perspective. This is the pigeon on the chess board problem. In my understanding, this is not lacking. I’ve personally met men within the church that, if their story were widely known, or the feats they’ve accomplished and the means by which they did so, they’d be venerated as wonder workers or fools or insert other title.
Does your specific EO church recognizing someone as a saint make them truly sanctified? What about the other EO or OO church your specific communion doesn’t recognize? They’re invalid as well for the men that pursued Christ in good and meaningful ways? This attitude of the spirit only operates inside the bounds of my communion, and everything beyond that is clearly prelest, is simply contradictory with the good fruits these other churches can produce. Be it some other form of EO that’s not yours, OO, BC, RC, etc.
Like, just take a step back and realize that you’re contributing far too much objective good to the evil one. I can’t see how that remains congruent in your mind.
@@Zorthroz-p4b St. Charbel Makhlouf is a wonderworking saint, St. Mariam Thresia Chiramel was a holy, mystical nun who had the gift of healing, Blessed Vladimir Ghika is said to also have healed the sick and cured barrenness, or Blessed Beshara Abou Mrad was a zealous worker whose apostolic zeal imitated the Apostles as did Blessed Hieromartyrs Kyr Mykola Charnetsky and Zynoviy Kovalyk.
AMEN, Love this! Thank You ... After many years, this is where we have landed... And the peace, oh the peace...
I remember the archdiocese of Los Angeles had a list of Eastern Catholic churches but I can't find them anymore. Does anyone have a resource to find a church and either San Bernardino county or LA county?
St Philip the Apostle Melkite Catholic Church is in San Bernardino and then there's St Nicholas of Myra Byzantine Catholic Church a little west in Fontana. The rest are in LA proper and quite a commute.
Emang, look up the San Bernardino Diocese as they have a list available.
@@TinaICXCNIKA They wouldn't have a listing since they are not Roman Catholic. You have to look up the particular Eastern Church's Eparchy. For example, all the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Churches (commonly referred to as Byzantine Catholic Churches) are part of the Eparchy of Phoenix. You need to go to their website to see a listing.
Thank you for such a gracious conversation! Thank you for acknowledging the real issues that exist between the Churches.
We must face honesty the canonical pretzel that exists among jurisdictions and the tendency towards schism when dealing with disputes. We must face the discipline of the holy mysteries, especially in marriage and artificial contraception. We have to stop treating all other Christians, even those in other jurisdictions like catechumens. Quietism and its attendant doctrines present a thorny issue between the Churches. Finally, the ethnic/national insular enclaves that are openly hostile towards one another challenge us all. I’ll add the open sheep stealing that operate in some “missionary” jurisdictions has to stop.
I firmly believe that with humility and honesty, we can overcome any challenge. Thank you for modeling this for us.
Great stuff! Keep it up!
Wonderful conversation
Let’s unite the West and the East. For the Glory of God.✝️☦️
My Uniate take on a Protestant (United Church of Canada) joke told in my home province: "We'll all be Uniates in Heaven!"
Super happy to see that the closed captioning is enabled. 👍
Thank you for this,
Do you plan on ever posting your episodes on Apple Podcasts or Spotify?
That be a great idea
Yes, I am working on it. I am using Buzzsprout. I think they are supposed to do that for me. Evidently you need two or three videos
@@SearchersoftheLostThe million dollar question that needs to be answered is this. Why did the Orthodox Churches leave Eastern Orthodoxy and enter communion with the Roman Catholic Church at the Council of Brest in the 1500s.
Was it for theological and dogmatic reasons or for political reasons? This will determine if it was a schismatic act or not.
@@vigilantchristian6314there are Byzantine churches that never left communion, mainly those on the peninsula, as the pope was their equivalent patriarch.
@@rushmonk3545 these 2 priests appear to be Ruthenian
This is a wonderful discussion! I think Byzantine Catholics and Western Rite Orthodox have the potential to be a natural bridge to repair the schism!
The Western rite is in reality that which the Orthodox frequently accuse the Greek Catholics of being=="Uniates", e.g., ritual adjuncts of another Church, with a unique liturgy, but otherwise following the theology and doctrines of the Church to which it is subordinate. The Eastern Catholics today have their own independent ecclesial identity--they are true Churches with their own hierarchy and their own governance. Moreover, for a century and a half, the Church of Rome has been exhorting us to restore the fullness of our Tradition and shed all latinizations, not just in liturgy, but also in theology, spirituality, doctrine and discipline. In contrast, both the liturgies celebrated by the Orthodox Western rites have been "byzantinized" in the same manner as was once the case with Greek Catholic liturgies.
By their fruits you shall know them.
Love you guys, men of God 🥰💕🙏🏻
Great conversation, it has been very helpful for me. My impediment to Catholism from Orthodoxy is that Orthodoxy holds unity in a way where propositional assent isn't the essential feature of the Christian life (theologians can even disagree if ecumenical councils are infallible and still fully be Orthodox). But as a Catholic, I can't have dissenting dogmatic beliefs (those de fide tenenda or credenda) and still be a valid, communing Catholic. Since I can't will myself to believe Catholic hamartiology, I'm unable to be part of the Catholic church.
I appreciate the effort you are putting into these videos, Father. I have been in a BCC parish for the better part of 30 years, having initially come as a refugee from the RCC because I can’t stand the Modernism which I believe has destroyed that tradition. Having once left the BCC parish over a eucharistic minister, and being concerned about such things as having altar serving being expanded beyond males, and the antics of Pope Francis, I have struggled mightily with going Orthodox for years. I drive past two Orthodox churches to get to the BCC and there is a third one two blocks away. It would certainly easy enough to do geographically. You identify at 13:45 the reason I don’t pull the trigger on it. I don’t buy the Orthodox line that Grace and valid sacraments do not exist outside canonical Orthodoxy when I have seen evidence to the contrary. I also don’t want to bring a schism into my marriage and family life. You have mentioned Archbishop Elias Zoghby’s book “We are all Schismatics” in both videos you have done now. While Zoghby was motivated by a desire of dual communion with the Orthodox, I use his reasoning as my lifeboat to stay Catholic, especially the second point of his “Initiative”. I know it’s controversial, but at this point I simply don’t care. But enough of the ramble… I would like to thank you again for the work you have put into the videos on this channel. I can’t help but think there are many people who wrestle with the topics you engage.
@@SelfConquest Godspeed brother.
Remember, the Big Os get their own controversy and scandal with things like altar servers. Grass isn’t always greener, it’s a trade off of some human problems for another set of human problems.
Pray for your priest, bishop, and stay involved in your community so you can steer your priest, lovingly, toward little o orthodoxy.
@@rushmonk3545 Point taken, Rushmonk. Thank you for replying.
I think both of these guys would have profited from attending a few Orientle Lumen conferences.
There's a dated, but still insightful, work by a late Protestant scholar that I'd recommend. It's very scholarly and neutral. The historian makes the point over and over that he's not pro-Catholic or anti-Orthodox but is only following the historical evidence, and that he's only going to use Eastern primary sources and Orthodox and Protestant secondary sources as almost hostile witnesses favoring papal primacy prior to the Photian schism. Source: Sidney H. Scott, "The Eastern Churches and the Papacy," London: Sheed & Ward, 1928. If someone is familiar with this tome and has a valid critique of Dr. Scott's sources, reading, and/or methods I'm open to hearing these.
From what I’ve been told, eastern Catholics don’t recite the Filioque but do affirm it. Why would this be the case? It seems like a good way to confuse the congregation for what they believe. If it’s affirmed, why not recite it?
We Maronite Eastern Catholic , we do recite the filioque.
Imagine the force for good that could be done in this world if the focus were actively changing culture rather arguing over some wording in the Creed? Ridiculous. As a Christian raised in a Protestant tradition, the fact that the leaders of our churches cannot resolve the differences is one of the most troubling things to my faith. Seems like a general lack of humility and an unwillingness to recognize the possibility that there are some things about the faith we cannot know for certain.
"We need precision, sometimes". Yes, but very rarely.
Zoghby gang 👇
HAHAHA! We need a handshake
@@SearchersoftheLost UniateGang fr no cap
You mean the Mighty Melkites? Very happy to be one. Wish the Ruthenians would lose their subservience and be more like us.
@@TheBadgerDad_TheByzantineLife Sadly, I know far too many Greek Catholics who really ARE uniates.
Can someone tell me the difference between reason why the orthodox has both the bread and wine (body and blood ) and the catholics have the bread and not the wine the (body but not the blood ) ? If that makes sense?
Byzantines do just as the Orthodox
@@SearchersoftheLostTo piggy back off this question, as someone discerning Catholicism, why do so many Roman Catholic Churches have the blood only as an option? I don’t disagree that Christ is full present in each element. But Christ clearly commands both. Why do they allow separation? Further, why don’t Roman Catholics have infant communion?
Because. back in the 13th century, the Fourth Lateran Council removed the Chalice from the laity, out of fear of profanation, and ruled they could receive just the Body of Christ.
Prior to that time, the laity had received the Eucharist in the same manner as the clergy: standing, receiving the Host in cupped hands, then stepping to one side and drinking from the Chalice (held by a deacon). The change had several significant ramifications. First, it marked the introduction of receiving communion on the tongue, while kneeling. Perhaps more significantly, it marked the end of infant communion in the West, because infants cannot ingest solid food, and where prohibited from receiving the Blood of Christ, so it just died out, as collateral damage. All this nonsense about reaching the age of reason began a century later as a post hoc rationalization of the Western Church's altering of what had been the Apostolic Practice.
It's significant that the Council of Trent refused to condemn infant communion, merely deeming it "unnecessary", because the same arguments used against infant communion could be, and were, used against infant baptism.
Would you ever have Father Jason Charon on?
Absolutely, I worked for him as an intern, back when I was in seminary. He is an awesome guy.
He's been quiet ever since Michael Lofton did a video on him calling him out as a schismatic for saying that he supports Bishop Strickland and insinuating that the Pope is a heretic.
@@EasternChristian1988 probably got a bit of blowback unfortunately. I appreciate the priests that call it like it is. Good, bad, ugly, beautiful, just stop dancing around when you desire for my good and salvation.
That camera angle is weird.
Grew up Catholic and converted to Eastern Orthodoxy as an adult. Could’ve chosen the Eastern Catholic route but theologically it’s have your cake and eat it too. Simply saying love and compromise trumps theology to me is inadequate.
Healthy boundaries exist for a reason. Which is why I find it ironic how all of a sudden eastern Catholics claim Nestorius is a saint now. To allow more into the fold, you call your councils untrue or holding enough error to anathematize someone incorrectly.
Where is Nestorius considered a saint? First I’ve heard of it. Have any sources?
@@akritas1453 this is a fundamental red flag. Syro-Malabarian Catholics have been given permission by the Vatican to continue to venerate Nestorius as a saint even tho it directly contradicts a church council the Catholic Church claims to adhere to. Voice of reason literally said in a video the council was wrong to anathematize Nestorius because he wants to have his cake and eat it too. There are videos of a Syro-Malabarian Catholics mass where they are venerating Nestorius as a saint. You can find both videos on RUclips with a quick search.
If you claim to posses Truth you cannot at the same time admit to being that incorrect on such a fundamental level. A church council cannot be wrong to condemn Nestorius as a heretic while also being the guardian of Truth against heresy. Protestants cherry pick like that all the time. Truth has to be objective
@ here is a catholic mass venerating Nestorius as a saint.
ruclips.net/video/8AAin0IRi3k/видео.htmlsi=kIF9gYSGjuMj9UwP
Oh boy they read my comment from last time about my life as cradle Roman Catholic turned Byzantine turned eastern Orthodox priests wife and finally Oriental Orthodox - 😅 wow I've become a "reverse influencer" 😅. But they won't mention it, I'm sure. And I'm one who did not ask "the question".
You only said Byzantines are in limbo.
If you’d like to expand on what your objections are specifically, I’m sure there are a number of Byzantines who’d raise a defense for the joy the find in Christ and the church.
Could you tell me what I said about what you said? I'm sorry Khouria, I really don't know what you are talking about.
I love you Greeks
Christos Anesti!
Vere Resurexit!
To best serve Christ? Your making up reasons not to in the first minute. If you deny His Church you deny Christ. if you serve Christ you will serve His Church. You are no more special than I in the eyes of God nor am I over you. If I had to study and learn history to know how to serve God then what makes you not have to? Many who say lord lord will be burning in hell. This is what our God the Word tells us. Good luck brothers I pray you all find His way.
I have an issue with the idea that you are empowered by the Spirit of God, but still constantly refer to yourself as "a sinner" or "messing it up".
What Communion does light have with dark? Do you not know that the same Spirit which raised Christ from the dead lives within you? Test yourself, to see whether you are in the faith. For it is said "you will know them by their fruits". Does the Spirit of God drive you to sin? Who are you in Communion with when you sin?
It's clear from my experience and understanding that a Son of God does not Sin. It's one of the things that made Jesus unique in this messed up world. Why on earth have the churches spread the lie that we continue in sin? Or that we are sinners post conversion?
I pray you can answer this using the Word of God, and not through the teachings of men.
@@bornagainbasics you’re serious?
Could you explain this to me.
We know there are sins outlined in the old and New Testament.
We know that through the sacrament of baptism we are to receive the Holy Spirit
Yet, our nature is not erased by God in this instance. We still have the proclivities to miss the mark but gain a co-pilot in essence to guide us.
How do you think we can’t miss the mark? To never offend God at all anymore once we’ve been baptized? I can only imagine this as unintelligible levels of hubris to claim baptism perfected you.
@rushmonk3545 I reject the idea that baptism is always fruitful, so unless you've found Christ on your own your baptism just made you a wet sinner. Think about the soldiers in the book of Acts, they required no water to receive the Spirit from Peter's teaching. The Father baptizes us according to the promise in Ezekiel 36:25-27
Upon finding Christ, you're reborn in an instant. The old has passed away and the Spirit of God now resides within the believer. What was once pleasurable is forsaken and God becomes the focus of your life. If you don't know this, then I would suspect you are living a life of sin and going through the motions of a traditionally religious person (like a Muslim). If you have this new life then my initial question would apply and also make sense.
As a former catholic and a catechumen to Orthodoxy, I eventually realized that my communion wasn't at all genuine. By the time I had started reading the way of a pilgrim and basic orthodox beliefs I felt as though I was lying when I was taking the eucharist at the Roman Catholic church. This is because Communion is not only to literally take Christ, but also to literally confess that everyone who takes the communion confesses one faith.
What I've seen is that despite the Orthodox, not having so many documents and legal canon laws, seem to have a stronger unity in faith, and many roman catholics wish and desire this unity. But this unity catholics want can turn into poison and become indifferent ecumenism. For the sake of love, not for the sake of hatred, the Orthodox church can't and will not make a union with the catholic church unless there is a true union. And there is a problem with these two lung theories. The church is one, and can't be divided. According to an Orthodox phronema, the church is already one, despite what many catholics say of the political schism in Russia. Even greeks and russians confess a single faith despite the political administration issues. The fullness of the faith is already in the Orthodox church.
If Catholics want a true union with the Orthodox church they will have to reject:
1. Papal Infallibility. If Papal Infallibility is true then you guys can't venerate Gregory Palamas, nor any formal schismatics who rejected Catholic councils and magisterium. This was solemnly defined in 'Unam Sanctam' and the 'council of Florence' Any type of nuance that comes with Palamas' veneration are just mental gymnastics to justify orthopraxy in byzantine circles.
2. Papal Supremacy: The pope can be the primate of the Orthodox church, and can even use his authority to excercise jurisdiction outside of his canonical limits through synodality and exhortations like in the early church. He can be, as so to say, the archbishops of archbishops. The earthly head of the church and the synod. But to excercise this authority he must be Orthodox. that is the way in which popes were measured in the early church, by their orthodoxy, despite what many might say.
From these objections we can discuss and reform all theological stuff like the Filioque and other papal 'developments'.
Be sure you are converting TO something, and not FROM something else. I've seen too many converts with a reflexive hostility to their previous confession, as some sort of apologia pro vita sub, as opposed to seeing themselves as moving from something good to something better.
@@StuartKoehl Hello dear brother in christ. There is no hate or hostility in my words. The truth of it is, that Orthodoxy is not compatible with the union of Rome everyone presupposes and wants to have. All of the recent orthodox saints are against it, and they are even venerated by eastern catholics. Saint Paisios, Saint Nektarios , Saint Porphyrios and Saint Silouan, just to mention a few, were all against ecumenism and union with Rome. And this they did with humility and with charity.
“Because we love the world more than Christ”
Saved all you guys an hour, you’re welcome
Huh?
@ “eastern catholics” are apostates from orthodox Christianity who sold out Christ to the pope for money and security. They are nothing but icons of the betrayal of Christ by Judas.
Right… looking at some of your other posts it seems that you troll YT to find byzantines just to validate your position of EO so that you can reassure yourself you’re in the one true church and anyone else is lacking the spirit. Great use of your ability to evangelize, bud. Reflect on your pride and triumphalism. Maybe not everyone who loves and seeks Christ has to be in your snowflake schism of EO or be damned.
That's exactly the impression I got when John of Ephesus linked up with the Russian King to crash the Council of Milan.
Cognitive dissonance
Come on bud, let’s hear the actual objection. Spell it out. Comment is about as useful as me going onto any other channel and just posting “heretic!”
I don't understand why westerners want to be byzantine. It is for greeks and turks. We have 24 rites, all equally holy.
It's for Greeks and Turks? What are you talking about?
Emotions are your guide where apologetic, theology, and the councils are rejected. You made a false church.
There are Byzantines that were always in communion with Rome. Some came back into communion. I’m not sure church means what you think it means here. Or maybe I’m misunderstanding since it’s a drive by comment. Care to expand?
The Councils do support the papacy
What we are saying here is not about emotions, though integral anthropology is not to be rejected. I affirm everything taught by the Orthodox and Catholic Church for the first millennium. I am not trying to argue in this episode. In fact, I doubt anybody will change their position based on this podcast. All we are trying to do is offer absolute honesty about why? I know folks are used to polemics, but I love the Holy Orthodox Church. I am not angry; I am only sad.
@@EasternPapist The Orthodox do not reject the papacy. They reject the innovation and heresy of universal jurisdiction (something all Byzantine Catholics ought to reject too, if truth mattered to them at all).
@@SearchersoftheLost If you believe everything the undivided church of the first millennium believed, why can you not publicly and clearly state the historical fact that papal supremacy is an aberration and innovation and NOT the universal belief of the universal church? The fact that the Ruthenian Church refuses to truly be Byzantine in her theology and ecclesiology is why I am heading toward Holy Orthodoxy. I can't live with the cognitive dissonance anymore of trying to be Orthodox in communion with Rome when the reality is that all we are is latin catholics with a funny mass. That's it. Eastern aesthetically insofar as that goes but ultimately we are latins through and through. The Orthodox see the lack of authenticity and run from any idea of communion with us. And a great many Eastern Catholics see this lack of authenticity and ultimately convert to Holy Orthodoxy because of it.