How to PROPERLY Set Gain On An Amplifier for Home Theater
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- Опубликовано: 18 окт 2024
- How to PROPERLY Set Gain On An Amplifier for Home Theater
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This is literally, the most useful information I've gotten off RUclips in months, when it comes to home theater! I wish I could have watched this live, so I could have asked to follow questions, but thumbs up to Jonathan for knocking it out of the park
This was suuuuuch a helpful video and topic. You managed to break down a complex subject in a simple way. Super grateful 🤘
Best explanation on the entire internet regarding this .. finally I feel more confident what I’m doing now .. great job !! Thank you 🙏🏽
This is incredibly helpful as I think about adding a Crown 1502 Amp to drive my mains. Awesome info gang! TY!
I think Jonathan should just put together a Home Theater Series of Knowledge lol. We all have systems and want the max performance from them. I don't have all the time in the world to hunt thru the forums over the proper info, and then if that information is wrong, what then? There's a lot to this hobby and I think a lot of people, spend more time in calibration then they do enjoying their systems. I do kind of wish the minidsp and that gain was mentioned as well, maybe just a visual. I've clipped plenty in past calibrations and I still am not 100 that I have my system dialed in correctly.
Amazing explanation, thank you guys so much. This is a real AHA moment for me 👍
another great video, and really good explained
Probably your greatest video yet! Thanks for the great info!
This man introduced me to the gain knob on my Rockford car monoblock amp back in the 90’s.
Hah. Nathaniel!!! I miss you brother!
@@jvonengeln You found me! Haha! It’s awesome how far you’ve come with this stuff. I thought you knew it all 20 years back…I had no idea how much more there was to learn. 🤯
Hi. I don’t know if I understand this correctly. When I calibrate my subwoofer levels to 75db. Should I decrease 0.5db per speaker added in my system? I have 12 speakers and two subwoofers. So should I calibrate to 69db?
I was wanting to use a HiBy M300 with a crown amp cls 1002 to power 2 IBeam VT200 tactile transducers with a wireless pair of headphones I know the headphone jack is powered but I was going to use USB-C to duel XLR (I’m making a vibroacustic bed) my question is 1. Do you think using the usb c to xlr will work and 2. Will there be a voltage that will effect the gain on the amp?
Setting a proper gain structure on a totally active system is one of the toughest things I had to properly learn how to do once I switched from AVRs to PrePros and active speakers.
@Youthman @jvonengeln 25:20 I believe the Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark 2nd Edition disc from 2013 is actually 75dB -30dBFS in the main channels & -40dBFS for LFE according to Stacey Spears who had mentioned this "The audio tones on the 2nd edition are dead on accurate. If you have a THX AVR, they will match in SPL, if the THX AVR meets spec. THX helped us ensure the levels are correct. Every signal was measured with an Audio Precision Analyzer to ensure it was electronically -30 dBFS for the mains and -40 dBFS for the LFE. There is the 75 (-30 dBFS) vs. 85 dB (-20 dBFS) and some AVRs and discs output tones for 85 (theatrical) instead of 75 (home cinema). There are even some discs that output something closer to white noise, which is way off." & Roger Dressler of Dolby Labs fame, confirmed this too, "Do you have a copy of the Spears & Munsil 2nd Edition test disc? If so, those levels (in either 5.1 or 7.1 format) are known accurate. The noise on that disc is pre-filtered from 500 Hz - 2.0 kHz, and is recorded -30 dBFS in the main channels and -40 dBFS in the LFE channel, all of which are intended to play at 75 dBC SPL at reference volume level."😉
I'm still confused on a number of steps. How to determine where to start the trim (-6 vs -8?) before adjusting the gain? If im at -6 and 70db how do I know if its better to increase the gain or just increase the trim level?
Usually better to increase the speaker trim in the processor (for speakers) than to increase the amplifier gain, because it’s a cleaner signal increasing in the prepro. If you are talking subwoofer outputs, I usually do the opposite and increase amplifier gain because of the redirected bass from your speaker crossovers means you really need to ensure that subwoofer gain stays low (high negative number trims) to ensure you aren’t introducing any clipping at the source.
Okay that clears it up for me, thanks for that explanation! I did some adjusting and I feel like there's definitely been some improvements.
what about the avm 70?
Can you run XLR microphone cable for a subwoofer or do you need a certain XLR ?
XLR cable is signal cable so yes microphone cable will work fine!
@@jvonengeln awesome. Thanks 👍
@@jvonengeln I have two paradigm subs 1s that I'll move up front using XLR splitter, your video's inspired me to build my own near field sub box, I'll be using the Dayton kraken 21inch sub. See how it goes. I was going to get 2 for the rear corners but you have me wanting to try near field subs haha.
I'd be curious how you hook up so many subs in your set up. Have you made a video on that ? I may of missed it.
You do great video's, this one helped alot as this is my first external amp for a sub. Looking forward to more videos 👍
You need to check the pin configuration on the 2 pieces before you do anything. Also, if you're using a mixer or any type of preamp that has phantom power, you need to be extremely careful. If you need to use phantom for a mic, make sure you can turn it on and off for all the channels independently. It can only be used on mics. Anything else and you can easily damage it.
I tend to do the opposite. I set my behringer gain all the way up and adjust the receiver and HD 4X4 down. This way the kids cant crank up the amps and blow the speakers.
What's your favorite audio calibration disk? Have you tried the Spatial Calibration Toolkit from Channa and Joe N Tell?
Great explanation. Many people dont understand you really can get full output at the lowest level. That puts it into perspective this is an attenuator, not a gain knob.
Hey Michael 😊
Play “Be Like That” by Kane Brown. That’ll get your screen wobbling. ;)
Like I’m car audio, we can measure at what output level does the processor/avr clip. Using a o scope or a Steve mead dd1
It will vary just like it does with car radios.
Its interesting though. With my subs, when I turn the receiver trim down (-10 or lower) and I turn the sub gain up, it has more impact than when the receiver trim is turned up (past -8 trim) and the sub gain is turned down. Both being calibrated to 75db.
You would think that shouldnt happen, but it does. Especially my Energy sub. The Dayton sub is pretty consistent, but the energy sub looses a lot of impact if the gain knob is turned below 60%, even if the calibrated level is the same.
This is part of the balancing act with setting your gain structure. Without knowing what exactly your setup is comprised of, I would guess that either your amp has a high input sensitivity rating or your source has a low voltage output, or maybe even both. If your amp is not getting a 'hot' enough signal from your source, then you could be missing out on a lot of dynamics throughout the frequency range of any given channel. If your other sub is faring better, then its amp could have a better match to your source's output voltage.
Coming from the live audio world, this is a constant battle of maintaining a good signal strength through the entire chain of patch points. A simple vocal channel can have 5 or more points in the signal chain where gain staging has to take place. You would start with the input preamp, then there's the mixer output, outboard effects, speaker processing, and finally the amplifier. All of those points have to be properly set to the previous link in the chain or the whole thing falls apart. If the preamp gain for the mic is set too high, the signal will clip and ruin everything else. If the speaker processor input or output is set too low then the amp could be sent a clipped signal or the amp itself could clip and so on.
Having all these points set up to maximize output and still have a small safety buffer is the end goal. Sometimes this means adjusting a physical gain or bumping a channel trim, other times it could mean swapping out an entire component to better match the sensitivity input/output ratings of the rest of your gear.
It may be that the -8 trim setting is providing a maximum voltage greater than your amplifiers input registers when your receiver sends "high" signals (those for maximum dynamic change).
Calibrating at 75db doesn't assess the dynamic headroom or maximum signal magnitude possible.
What you are describing as the loss of "impact" is instantaneous dynamic change. This is a high signal triggering significant current and speaker movement.
A test would be to set the trim to 0 and see if you can get the volume down to 75db. If not it indicates that your receiver may be outputting a 2v signal and your sub amp accepting a 1.4v signal (as an example). By reducing the trim you are reducing the magnitude of output and therefore more likely to exist within a range the amplifier is ok with.
Saw this live, but thanks for posting this clip I will definitely save and reference this in the future.
Simply Brilliant information from Johnathan here! Couldn't be more appreciative of this content and clip! I'm on board for all things on this channel going forward and likely book flights, hotel etc. For MWAVE 2024!
SOLD!!!
Glad you enjoyed the video. I thought this was definitely worthy of making a dedicated podcast clip
@@Youthman Michael, you nailed this clip! Great editing man, this was definitely worth the time and effort for us enthusiasts, thanks so much for all you do!
Appreciate you brother
Would it be easier to just purchase a power amp with No gain knobs ? And couple it with a good pre/Processor..... just wondering .
An amplifier without gain input attenuation knobs has a fixed gain. It's usually okay, so long as you have a average room size (distance from speaker) and mainstream equipment. If you are using very high efficiency speakers, you may not be able to turn down your channel trims enough to fall above the negative 12dB channel trims on your amp. You may need to add input attenuation. If you have very low efficiency speakers, a fixed gain amp may require you to go into the positive on your individual channel trim levels, which isn't generally a good idea, so you may need a signal boost before the fixed gain amp. An amp with input attenuation can help you dial on the channel trims more easily, than a fixed gain amp.
@@jvonengeln @jvonengeln
Thanks for your answer johnathan , your knowledge as usual on these matters is always priceless .Coming to think of it i ,had a NAD M25 amplifier that could only drive my 85db B&W speakers when the knobs were almost all the way up. I think unless one needs plenty of headroom , it wouldnt be very noticeable. It never quite ocurred to me until now , but i still think i will stick with an amplifier that has a predetermined gain. I dont see myself driving the channels above reference level. The subs do the heavy lifting anyway . Heres where i might need to play with the gain in relation to my anthem avm 70 sub outs signal level .
You can start out with the input of the amp set to unity gain. That's basically the same as using an amp with no adjustable gain. What you really need to do is learn the difference between gain controls and volume controls. Understanding that will make things much easier for you. Do the research yourself because if you just rely on someone to explain it to you, there's a good chance that at least some of the information is wrong.
Wdy did he stop using jtr in his hometheater?
I like JTR, and recommend them, but ended up going a different route because I could get other all matching speakers that I also liked for a lesser overall budget.
If I Put my crown amp to 2/3, and my sub trim to -6, or -8, I don't have enough volume. I have a mini dsp, and have to raise the gains a ton to get any volume. what should I do?
What levels are you going to in your mini DSP? Are you going above 0? What AVR or prepro are you using? You may need a signal booster. Look at the Art CleanBox Pro as one option.
@@jvonengeln Using a Marantz SR 6015. I Have sub 1, 2 ,3 ,4 gains set really high. I have the input gain at 0.
Also I have the Crown amp set to 0.775v.
This is very informative. I have a question tho. My subwoofer (SVS PB-1000) to match to 75db I have to set the trim on the receiver at +4.0db, should I raise the gain on the subwoofer to lower the trim in the receiver?
For sure. You should. All the more because you are talking about the subwoofer channel. You are at risk of input clipping with your current settings.
@@jvonengeln Thank you! Any minimum trim number to aim for?
@@FadriqueFMfor a 5.1 system try to have subwoofer trim no higher than -3dB For a 11 channel system try to have the subwoofer trim no higher than -7dB. These are general best practices - not necessarily universal truths. Crank on your sub amp gain to offset to still get your 75dB test tone.
Having the gain on the amplifier side too high also has the negative of amplifying any noise the cable itself may be picking up. (unless using XLR where noise should have been balanced out)
XLR connections make no difference from RCA over short runs
@@Music.Movies.67 Not true, any computers or routers nearby give noise in the signal over RCA, I had to switch my studio monitors from TS to TRS because of nasty interference, killed it completely.
XLR means absolutely nothing. Its just a 3 pin connector. The only way to get this right is to understand how the components themselves work. This is the single most misunderstood topic in audio. There is far more bad information than good. There's a lot to it all, so I can only give you some brief comments, because to go over it all is simply not feasible in a post like this.
"XLR" is typically used when talking about balanced operation. A regular single ended connection "RCA", has 2 conductors. A signal + and ground -. Balanced connections Have 2 signal conductors ++ and a ground -. As a consumer, or end user, this is what you need to know. Balanced operation is not compatible with single ended operation. If you want to mix bal and se components, some type of action has to be taken so that a compatible signal can travel between the 2 pieces they connect. You can either make both connections balanced, or both connections single ended. The reason for this is you need some way to deal with the 3rd conductor on the balanced side. For home audio products, 90%+ of the time you run both pieces single ended. Think of the 3rd pin/conductor as being disabled. You just use 2 of the 3 pins. Balanced operation can only be achieved if both components have balanced inputs and outputs, and you use a balanced cable to connect them. If you don't have all that, the connection using XLR connectors is electrically identical to an RCA connection. So, the vast majority of people thinking they have a balanced connection, don't. They just don't understand how it works.
One of you mentioned having to use a TRS connector on your studio monitors to make a balanced connection to deal with the noise. That's not what happened. Your noise was a direct result of crossing wires and creating a short circuit. In most situations, when you use any type of adaptor or cable to connect mixed components, its customary to shunt the number 2 pin to ground. The only problem is, when you send a balanced signal through the cable with 2 pins connected, a short circuit is instantly created the second signal goes through it. That shout circuit is the noise you were getting. I would have to see exactly what you did, but you fix did something like float the ground eliminating the short. Unless there is information you didn't include in your post, I can tell you with 99% certainty that your connection is not balanced.
I just want to say once again, that I can't possibly include all the information to give this topic a full treatment. Its not even close. There are different ways a component can be balanced. There's different ways the connection can be wired. The rules can vary depending on the specifics of the situation.
@@AT-wl9yq My signal path is, PC > Scarlett Solo Interface > TRS to Presonus Sub8 > TRS to Presonus Eris 4.5 Studio monitors
When using just TS cables, the connection was very noisy with interference, especially when scrolling a Web page or playing a game that caused high load.
I read to fix noise to buy Balanced TRS or XLR cables, and it did fix it 100%. Just putting it out there incase somebody stumbled upon the same issue.
@@AT-wl9yq well I wanted to not like your comment because you started off pretty blunt and borderline condescending--which I've noticed a lot on these audio file forums and discussions from people that actually provide bad advice or wrong information.
But I work as an audio engineer in life sound and studio recording, and have a brother that is a self declared “audiophile" that I've had to rescue from the lies and snake oil in products catering to this consumer segment... So it's a bit refreshing when I'm reading a comment that is totally bang on and holds no punches when describing the amount of confusing on a subject that should be as simple as balanced signals. Might seem a bit abrasive at first, but with the proliferation of so much wrong information just to get people to buy products, and with consumers believing these lies or worse, when consumers begin to publicly repeat wrong info or share incorrect understanding of concepts, a polite rebuke is probably not going to make much of an impact.
Like @AT mentioned, the amount of data on this subject is fast. And you can spend a hell of a lot of time learning about differential signaling.. simply put, if your equipment does not have any balanced connecting ports, or if only one piece of your equipment is balanced and the other ones are not... Plugging a balanced cable is not automatically making your devices become balanced. If you're buying balanced cables and plugging them into an AVR using a XLR to RCA adapter, you're basically plugging in an RCA cable. You can get into buying di boxes which is a legit way of taking a unbalanced signal and balancing it via both active and passive transformer stages.. that's big in the recording and live audio industries... Although I haven't seen any product design for the home theater or audiophile industry.. I suspect it would cost 10x what a di box should cost. (Y'all spend entirely too much money this stuff guys)
I don’t get the speaker trim no higher than 0 in AVR, I got an AVM90 and ARC sets the speaker trims anywhere mostly above 0 so none of this makes any sense
If your AVR is set above 0 on the channel levels, most AVRs will subtract that from the headroom from the main volume position as a protection mechanism. If your AVR is setting the numbers at positions it’s less of a concern than using external amps and having the channel trims set in the positive.
@@jvonengeln ok this makes sense, thank you.
What about running audy? It will set the trims for you like -2, so do you lower them all?
Speaker trims at negative 2 cause no issue at all up to reference main listening volume. It COULD cause input clipping with the auto EQ applied, (if more than a two dB boost and you rubbing at 0 (reference) on the main volume, but the reality is modern AVRs handle input clipping so well you’d never know without measurement gear and if you just are using the AVRs internal amps, and this is your main speakers or surround speakers and not subs -- then -2dB is fine. Roll with it and enjoy it!
Very informative. Thanks for the knowledge.
Got to watch more at lunch time. This guy is giving really really good info! You hit bingo on all of these conversations. I've got, like you said fancy amps with no attenuation for the 9.6 and crown xls amps for subs. I know they are not set up right but I was too lazy to do the calibration but this really helps.
So for example on the Stormaudio Prozessor ( with rel. High Output Vortage) , to what Level should i Set the pre for reference Level ? Minus 7 for example and aim for 85 dbc pinkmoise ? When using the internal Ton Generator ? My speakers can handle That spl … would be nice to know . This topic is on my m8nd for a while.. Thank you guys !
so again, what when I reach 75 db on a high efficient speaker in my system at -31 on the pre ? In this case my Subwoofer for example is lower. The Speaker ( over 100 db efficient) channel Trim is already at -10....
Hey guys this is really interesting. I have a mini dsp 2x4 and have found I have had to turn the gains to 3 o’clock and input trim on sub channel to +7db since introducing it. I have found I have a buzz which is only there when the mini dsp is in the chain. If I were to introduce the arc cleanbox would that also increase the buzzing.
Cleanbox pro should not increase buzzing, you would lower your input attenuator knobs with that device. You should not be in positive trims unless you you subtract that amount from reference. So you at speaker trim +7dB should not turn your main listening volume above -7dB from 0. Or no higher than 73 to avoid clipping.
Jonathan sure knows what he’s talking about
Jonathan is a wealth of knowledge.
Thanks Johnathan, I was just looking around for an explanation like this the other day
Is it worth using an oscilloscope to check for clipping? I have one but not sure on the procedure
@@andrew1977auyou can just watch your amplifier clip lights. Do you ever see them come on? You can use your scope if you want. You’d be looking for squared off waves (top and bottom of wave)
Good tutorial.
If you have a Channel Trim at -12 or +12 please consider the below.
If you have a channel that auto calibrates trim to -12 or +12 and others have a different value, be aware that it may need a greater value than 12 BUT the processor cannot offer it.
In that instance, if you can alter the level you are using for calibration in the opposite direction so you can offer more capacity for the actual required setting for that speaker to be chosen.
EG: All of my speakers are at -3 and my sub is at -12.... I'll change my speakers to 0 and recheck to see what the sub is.... if it's still -12 I need to go further. If it's -9/10/11 then it is now ok.
I haven't explained this super clearly sorry - just be aware that any maximally set trim value may be incorrect because of a lack of range.
To expand on the comment from Jonathan regarding what SPL to calibrate against when using external disks/sources; that (sadly) depends on what SPL the test tone disk has been mastered at (ex AVIA or DVE). Some have been mastered at -30dB to calibrate at 75dB, some have been mastered at -20dB to calibrate at 85dB. So check the literature on the test tone disk you want to use.
This is true!
How mach they cost
I have Marantz AV Receiver and after running Audyssey it always sets my Subwoofer trim to -12 which is the lowest, l always change it to -10
That means you need to lower the gain input attenuator knobs on your subwoofer amps. You don’t want your AVR to be -12dB on the trim, because that’s maxed out and you don’t really know where you are at relative to where accurate is since the AVR might be trying to set the sub to -17dB ( as a for instance, but it can’t lower it that much to integrate it properly since -12dB is all the lowest level it has. Lower your subwoofer amplifier gain so you can land say between -12dB and -6dB.
they are volume knobs ... they are just used diffrently but there is no diffrence to a volume knob. the amplification multiplier stays the same. lets say, for easy math the input signal is 1 watt ( its way less ) and ur amplification mutliplier is 100x then the amp would output 100w. so what if you only want 30watt? then theres a resistor that reduces the voltage so that no longer 1 watt is reaching the amp but 0,3 watt. so the amplification factor remains 100 so its 30watts now.
the problem why u dont want to use it as a volume know is that the system is to complicated and if you want to adjust that early in the chain you would need to turn every single knob exactly the same. that would be a major hassle. So you set up your gain structure. and control your volume at a device that can adjust all those channels at once. like an avr or a preamp. but the way it works under the hood is the same. so if you want to get the full 100watts but your gain is at -3db ( -50% ) then you would need to put a 2 watt signal into the device so after the resistor theres 1 watt left.
The multiplication ( amplification ) in the device always stays the same. If you have a high quality pre amp. you dont want to use it at -30db because u lose the dynamic the pre amp actually can bring if your gain on the amp is at -0db or close to it. because u rather want to have the preamp at -10db so it works to its full potential and have the gain on the amp so that u have the volume that u actually want to have.
"they are volume knobs ... they are just used diffrently but there is no diffrence to a volume knob. the amplification multiplier stays the same.)"
"the problem why u dont want to use it as a volume know is that the system is to complicated and if you want to adjust that early in the chain you would need to turn every single knob exactly the same. "
That's 100% wrong. Gain controls are not volume controls. You need to know the difference between the 2. Gain controls are always on the input section of a component, and volume controls are always on the output of a component. Only gain can distort the signal, a volume control can't. Thats why its so important to get your gain set properly. If gain is set too high, it will overdrive the input and distort/break up, just like a guitar amp. If you have an issue like this, reducing the volume won't the problem. You can lower the volume as much as you want, but the distortion will still be there.
I don't know who told you that, but you may want to get your information from a different source.
@@AT-wl9yq u think ur output volume knob is AFTER the amplification? imagine having a 200w amp, a line signal comes in, gets amped to 200w and ur volume knob now needs to kill 180w in heat because u only want 10% of the avaiable output?
Head room
If you’re referring to the thumbnail, you probably should watch the video
Well crap, I feel like I need to spend a day in my theater to calibrate. When setting up my speakers the Denon said set external amps at 3/4 gain. I have always just left them there but my front stage is at +2 offsets.
Do you listen at -2, -1, or reference main volume. Or above? If you do, you should recalibrate. Raise your gain input attenuator knobs two clicks, that should give you four dB of negative trim - landing you at -2 on your front sound stage. No risk of source clipping thereafter. If you don’t listen towards reference, ever, then don’t worry about it. If you use heavy EQ - you may want to raise your input attenuator knobs more than 2 clicks.
@@jvonengeln thanks for the reply! I will play with it a little on weds when the wife is at work. I have also wondered about the voltage settings on the rear of my Behringer power amps. I run RCAs between my Denon to the Behringers and have them set at 1.4v. There are two other setting 26db and .77v and I’m pretty sure the 1.4v is correct. Would changing those setting along with the attenuator knobs be beneficial?
@@gmonnigsorry for the no reply. Since this isn’t my channel I don’t get notifications. (Or I missed it?). At any rate with a Denon you want 1.4V! It puts out more like 2-4V typically on Denon units. So the 1.4 input on the amp is appropriate!
Thanks! That what I normally leave it on. I'm a local KC guy, Lees Summit. I'm glad there's a lot of people in the area that are into this hobby! I spent the evening in the theater and have a lot more work to do.
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This is so important. I use a Lyngdorf MP-40 Processor. It outputs at 16 vrms. If you don’t turn the gain attenuators on your amps down to minimum and set your sub trims to at least -6 in the Processor or Sub Amps before running Room Perfect Calibration it will over drive the speakers and subs causing clipping and potential damage.
No. It will overdrive the input, and that is the source of the distortion. The amp and speaker are just playing back what they heard. The signal was already distorted before it reached the amp.
Only excessive gain can distort the signal. Volume can't. Any time you have gain related distortion, it can only be fixed by reducing the source of the excess gain. Volume position doesn't matter at all. The best way to deal with your situation is to increase resistance on the signal before it gets to the downstream input. Look up Rothwell attenuators. Something like that is what you need. It will give you the ability to better adjust the signal level.