I think you’re right. This is one of the strongest episodes of the series yet. I loved seeing Vina again and the actor they found for her was terrific. The only butthead in the episode was Spock. Yet I think I understand his resentment towards Michael. I also loved Pike and Vina interacting again. The reason Pike wanted to go back to Talos IV.
Great review as always! The retro "previously on" was a blast and totally unexpected. Wilson Cruz as Culver is killing it with his acting, so intense and traumatized. Awesome but ultimately sad fight scene with Culver and Ash. Everything Pike was brilliant as usual!
Wilson Cruz just nailing it! And his fight scene was so strong, I really felt for both him and Tyler in that scene. And Anson Mount may be my favorite captain in Trek (which is saying something!)
For me it just hit.....capt pike loves her, she loves him. we know how in the end pikes fate will be, there is a deeper connection between them that they built on, very thankful for that, when he does go back after the accident, he is going home to her...
This was my favorite Discovery episode of them all. Especially an insight to the Talosians, that they build their culture around memory and barter. Also it was good to see how much Vina touched Pikes soul. The way Anson Mount shivered when he saw Vina. He was so good.
" Don't watch, end of your problem. " Headache still doesn't disappear though, because what has been seen can't be unseen, and you still get people trying to force it to fit, and I still try and fail to make it fit and make sense myself.
I think people hate on this show because it wasn't what they wanted it to be. It's to bad, because this is some of the best Trek I have seen. There is still the Federation ideology, but there is also humanity, and failure, and growth from our imperfections. They are entitled to opinions, but boy are they giving this show a bad rap.
Every show these days which espouses progressive values is attacked by the tiki-torch brigade. Trek has always been progressive. The tiki-torchers are out of touch with reality.
That's called Blind Devotion to something, and when something fails to deliver or Worse, coasts on past excellence and just expects you to take whatever it's shoving down your throat now , that's just really sad. We should be holding them to higher and higher standards, not accepting whatever they shovel out just because they stamp Star Trek on it. If this show were any other show, and didn't have the name Star Trek on it it would have been canceled after the first season that like so many other weird and disconnected sci-fi and fantasy shows have been.
enjoying something does not causate blind devotion. key word "enjoying" .. if others will impose their own brand and unique way of enjoying something to you and don't like the fact that you enjoy what they do not, then that is just simply, how you put it? ah yes.. bigotry! so reverting back to my previous comment "Don't watch, end of your problem"
I understand the "a-hole Spock" situation as he is experiencing time out of order and, to him, the wound of Michael's betrayal is still fresh. Also, the theme of trauma begets trauma. Thank you for a great vid. Subscribed!
Its refreshing to see a positive review for a change. I'm finding that Georgio to be less overtly evil than she was in the mirror universe. In the mirror universe she seemed almost cartoonish, like some Flash Gordon villain, a bit over-the-top. I think I like this version better; somehow on some level she seems to actually care for Michael.
I think she did a wonderful job in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Wires" but I can't remember seeing her as an evil person. And she seemed to be fine as good Georgio. Perhaps she just isn't great as a "bad guy", but with time she seems to be doing better.
imo Yes. She seems to do well. She's a tad bit wooden, but I think it more has to do with the character Michael than her acting abilities. One might imagine that growing up on Vulcan one might be a little wooden.
Regarding Sonequa/Michael, I don´t see any sense in the overreaction she does all the time. She is always crying or making expressions of suffering.It´s quite strange to anyone who was raised in Vulcan. I consider Michael a troublesome and irritating character, to say the least.
Excellent review.. but a doctor telling an engineer he works too much and they rarely see each other? LOL!! My SO is a doc and it is the complete opposite. We're okay, but many doctors have terrible problems maintaining relationships .. when not working they're constantly catching up with conferences and revisions. Dr.Phlox from 'Enterprise' was probably the best portrayal of the profession within Star Trek.
Exactly, very excellently and masterfully put. It's great to hear another big fan of Trek like this episode as much as I did and explain the bigger broader areas of everyone's relationships. Well done.
i like to think that the contrasting footage from TOS and the scenes in the cave are kind of the difference between how things actually looked vs. pike's memory; when you think about things, they're sometimes vague, undefined, and lacking in detail, while you remember the general overall of things.
You are a good person for listening to , voice clear, Few unneeded foul words and informative. Your Opinion is a lot like mine on this episode. WELL DONE first time seeing your post and do you do one on the Orville?.
Thomas Hill glad you like my reviews! I do occasional posts and updates on The Orville (I did one just last week actually) but I don’t do weekly reviews. Not because I don’t like both, but just my schedule only allows me the time to do either trek or Orville due to them being on the same night. But, like I said, I watch every episodes and try to do regular discussions on it. I’ll also probably do a season wrap up and videos on the Orville once the season is over.
Darren Holcomb dr culber Was in a different universe he did died But the spoor dust are living entity s that saved him and created him a new body is a long story
@@canndydrivegaming9831 interresting tho that basically sets up the condition that anybody who dies on the ship just goes to spore heaven where they can easily be retrieved and brought back to the ship without even missing a shift if the crew are on top of it.
Darren Holcomb not really work That way Tyler had brought culber In a special universe when discovery was in the mirror universe The spoor entity Found him Is a confusing story But beautiful story line
The Previously On Star Trek felt very much like a storybook especially with the transitions--like a pop-up book. Kind of reminds me of how I explain the animated series. TAS is sort of the fairytale retelling of TOS era stories, and in a way TOS is that for Discovery. Also they used a web font instead of something official because the back of the E should have been rounded. Yeah, I'm a font nerd!
It is absurd to downplay the relationship between Spock and Sarek pretending that his relationship with Michael was instrumental in Spock's personality formation. It makes no sense Spock to be a victim of discrimination being half Vulcan while Michael is human and so emotional. Another strange thing is her hair being straigth as a child.
It makes perfect sense to me. We've seen many times before that Vulcan's have a heavy disdain for Spock because he is half-human, half-Vulcan, whereas humans they tend to just thumb their noises at in general. Spock, to some, represents an impurity in their species. I mean, we've sadly seen the same thing in real life human society. Look back at the history of racial issues in America. Some people looked down on African-Americans simply because they were black, but often times biracial children of a African-American and a Caucasian person had to face even more direct discrimination from both the black and white communities, for they were seen as not being allowed to be part of either. And let's not forget that while we didn't see it directly on-screen, Michael was literally being hunted down by logic terrorists on Vulcan for being human, so it's not like Michael didn't face any form of discrimination. In fact, it's obvious that while Spock certainly faced social discrimination for his heritage, Michael faced direct violence for who she was. We've also seen all the way back in TOS Spock taking direct issue with the term "half-breed" when Kirk used it towards another group.
@@JessieGender1 It would make sense if Spock's past had not been told. If he was a new character to us. It´s just not true. We know his past. We watched Journey to Babel, Star Trek V and Yesteryear. What Discovery does is a dirty trick to associate these unpleasent characters with those we love (from Star Trek). It´s cheap.
I had to go watch 'the cage' for the first time. This gives Pike so much depth. The only problem right now is how the writters are just destroying my soul with the stamets and culber storyline. I hope culber isnt tortured and lost for the rest of the season.
Honestly, if they wanted to retcon Talos IV no longer being the death penalty, I’d actually be fine with that. It never really made sense that Starfleet would be so universally against the death penalty except in this one, random issue. They let war criminals and genocidal maniacs live. Why do trespassers get the death penalty? Talosians aren’t even that dangerous. They’re too busy poking Vina to do much else.
Great commentary on a great episode. I would have liked to have seen the Talos IV plot spread over more than one episode, especially since it was somewhat crowded out by other great B and C stories. I'm one who thought the characters and world of "The Cage" were well thought out by Gene Roddenberry and was Star Trek in its purist form and that it could be expanded upon in very interesting ways (not to the exclusion of the Kirk, Picard, et al stories, of course). I love that Discovery is taking that on, and so skillfully. I'm fine with retconning that the "death penalty" stuff about Talos IV came from this Discovery encounter -- or maybe subsequent ones by who-knows-who. In the original pilot, nothing was said in the closing scenes that "OMG, nobody ever should visit this place again."
Jeff Keller. One episode would have been fine if they just had A plot (planet) and B plot (Pike) and not cluttered up the 45 minute show with a C plot and D plot.
Lol I love the "previously on star trek" section but it tripped me out because the Paramount Plus app doesn't function properly. In particular the watch next function leads to an error screen, so I thought it decided to send me to TOS for some reason
How tf does this keep happening? Btw what a bi**h to let Leeland be manipulated like that. "Say goodbye Spock" "Goodbye Spock" We saw the destruction of Romulus. Earth. Vulcan and Andoria. I'm willing to bet it's those who took over Ariam. The Tyler/Culber thing needed to happen as Saru said(he's quickly becoming my favorite First officer). And my heart when she drove herself from Spock.
@@Mhotepful it reminded me of Data being told the same thing in TNGs 2nd season. It also gave hints of the sass we saw in the Kelvin Timeline. #sassyspockisthebestspock
I think to a degree, it's kind of them saying, look, even if things don't line up 100% with what they were in the original series in terms of look, they still are in the same canon and universe. It's the story through-line that remains constant and most resonate to today, even if the makeup or effects have changed over 50 years. That being said, I was mildly joking about the fanny heads, but honestly, I'm kinda sad we didn't see them in this haha.
Loved the depiction of the Talosians - The makeup/prosthetics were great (even though still humans in costume), and they impressively chose to avoid having them use human facial expressions because they've evolved to communicating with just their minds.
They could imply that the Red Angel prevented the Kelvin timeline without going into it enough to be confusing. After seeing your video I really hope that's the way they're playing Stamets and Culber and that they don't blow it by making Culber turn out to be some kind of Mycelial Network alien or something. I hope you've seen Wilson Cruz's performance as Rickie Vasquez on My So-Called Life? I fell in love with every single character on that show, and at the time I didn't know any open gay people. The Air Force psychiatrists at the time considered homosexuality a mental disorder linked to pedophilia and every other form of sexual deviancy. It was Rickie who showed me that a gay person is only human. I even wrote a fan fiction with the characters from MSCL as the crew of a Federation starship; it's nice to see that sorta kinda come true, and to see that Cruz has a solid career after MSCL. I gave up on STD after the first few episodes of S1, mostly because having the lead start a war seemed to go against everything Trek. I'm glad I checked in on S2; the plots are more Trek, Anson Mount as Pike is the very model of a Kirk era starship captain, and they have the advantage of seasonal arcs. Now it's hard to decide whether to watch STD or The Orville first on Friday mornings.
Thank you for the comments on Star Trek Discovery I told everybody he got to give them chance this is a new show this like I'm Enterprise it start off real slow Enterprise Next Generation Auto Star Trek show start on real slow it some episodes of Deep Space Nine I don't like and you Space Nine is one of my favorite episodes Star Trek ever you know that's my favorite Star Trek Deep Space Nine but it's just some some episodes of this track and pulley I'm even they got start off on a when I went to half a leg when they started Voyager we can start off with a half of leg you know even original Star Trek in India with get a chance they start off with a half of that they would have got me to 552 more seasons Star Trek Star Trek the original would have been good you know they probably would have got some more episodes and we was going into the 1970s and it is definitely would have been more episodes and more changes Star Trek it is a slow pace slow show and you got to be patient with it and you got to deliver that to all the fans on your on your RUclips channel until I get mine but people just got to be patient you know you patient get these characters growing and just give me a chance to know let's get past this whole thing on the NFL stream first three seasons okay I mean probably for going to be a drag to it and if they do get a 4456 Sumner what episode do you prime a queen like you okay cuz it's a lot of episodes of next-generation I don't like at 4 after four season no it's not one of my favorite Star Trek anyway including the original and like I said before Deep Space Nine so get that message out in town with the fans and all your RUclips competitors get this show a chance they going to change give it a chance thank you and you you host a wonderful review Star Trek show I like your reviews on RUclips Cory
Nice channel and awesome review!!!!!! I'm not sure if they want to keep away from The Kelvin Timeline, but I agree that it's different than bringing in the Kelventime line... There are theories the red angel plot is in part about course correcting the Kelvintime line by in some way preventing it from happening, as it derives from events in the future of the prime timeline.. 1. There's a rumor that the Picard series may feature the Red Angel too. And it just happens to be taking place post Spock's & Nero's disappearance after the destruction of Romulas as seen in the prime timeline of 2009 Star Trek, before the Kelvinverse is created (Star Trek 4 has also been shelved, so it's unclear if there will be more Kelvinverse Trek) 2. Leonard Nimoy played a pseudo villainous character on Fringe. Fringe is a Bad Robot Production. So is the Kelvenverse Trek, and like the Kelvinverse Trek and other Bad Robot productions, Alexander Kurtzman and his former writing partner Roberto "Bob" Orci co-created and were involved with Fringe. In the season 4 finale (Brave New World), taking place in an alternate blue universe, William Bell has decided that humanity sucks and he wants it all to start over, so he going to try and collapse the new iterations of the red and blue universe in order to make a brand new one! So if Spock is the red angel here, then there could be similar idea. 3. The dynamics between Leland and Pike also remind me of Nero's and Pike's dynamic in 2009 Trek, which also includes a back story with the Klingons, which is featured in comics, but I think surfaces more because of that in Into Darkness. Nero kept calling Pike "Christopher" in a similar fashion that Leland did.
I loved Fringe, so I'd totally be down for a similar twist as that series. I know some people feel like it's overplayed, and it certainly can become too convoluted and plot focused, but I always like alt-universe and alt-timeline stories. I think some of Trek's best episodes have revolved around stories like that (see Year of Hell, City on the Edge of Forever, Parallels, Trials and Tribble-ations, First Contact, the Xinidi Arc on Enterprise).
@@JessieGender1 I love Fringe and alternate universe stuff too! Being an Abrams fan for about 20 yrs, I always tend to think of Kelvinverse as Alias in Space! But the Fringe collapsing universes plot may be an interesting idea, even though I was still hoping that there would be some more Kelvinverse 'something of another' at some point, but certainty like Discovery a great deal too! :) It will be interesting to see how the rest of the season unfolds.
Bad Wolf thematic writing from New Who, Billie Piper. Bernham died as a runaway child Spock saved her by telling his parents The Angel is the red scrawl graffiti in each episode Michael started the series in a space suit, picked a fight with a Klingon, got knocked out, started a direct total war with Klingons that TOS and DS9 said never happened, but Picard said did. The probe went 500 years in the future and came back as a cyber weapon Discovery has a cybernetic in the crew, now infected by the probe. The cybernetics will destroy life in the future Eventual stop: The City on the Edge of Forever and the Guardian(s) Michael Bernham MUST DIE. I can live with that. The writing of this year comes from many of the original first year TOS scripts that got heavily edited. The story style is Lost/Mad Men/The Crossing. The predestination theme is from Doctor Who 2005-present. I could be wrong. First year came off like the team was way over their head, trying to follow Fullers (fired/quit) series outline and having never written sci fi. They were winging it and borrowing heavily from the Axinar game in 1985 and the Tartigrades video game to get something on the screen for Netflix, who paid for it.
LOL OMG hundreds of video later this one is awesome. We never got that sit and feel with this crew. It's a shame they got cancelled before they explained the Burn. There are four lights!
Its Jeffery Hunter. Two problems I have. Problem one is the Android that is before Data able to miniplate things. However is being controlled by sectin 31. Problem Two is minor The uniforms. If after "The Cage" Why these odd uniforms not the original Gold, Blue and Red?
in season 2, discovery goes in a better direction and to me, this show now feels much more like star trek. i can watch it now, without getting angry or sad.. instead of that i am laughing a lot now :D still.. i cannot say, that i like this show, but i see (and appreciate) all the little changes that have done!
I have hated this Show Right up to the Last Two Episodes Which Felt as if New Writers & a New Director Had Just taken Over Totally Different Feel ..... Much much Better Lets hope This is a Turning Point in this Show .
I think it's super cool how there are layers of interpretation that you reach as a trans person with a history of trauma. Makes your reviews so much more insightful and honestly makes me see each episode in a more positive light.
Lawrence Hawkins. Her name is M I C H A E L. hint hint Her spacesuit is drawn in the intro for two years. The Red Angel suit is becoming more specific in every episode to be a mod of her suit. Like the probe. She was supposed to DIE. Bad Wolf! And The Impossible Girl!
They looked kind of like Jet Reno's guys from the season premiere. I wonder if they were the same ones? Or did she re-purpose the cleaners on her ship?
The one thing I didn't care for in this episode was the excessive use of lens flares and bright lights in the windows. It was so excessive that it took me out of the story, and ruined it for me.
Yeah, the more I think about it, I really dislike the Arham eye reveal at the end of that scene. It felt like too on the head. I really liked the fact that she was lurking in the background of the scene. Still overt, but less beat-you-over-the-head with it. Small knock against the episode overall though.
I teared up at the half-breed line. It was so gut wrenching and both Ethan Peck and Senequa MArtin-Green nailed it. Could really see how that line hurt both of them in such different ways.
I'm wondering if THIS sequel episode holds the cross entertainment record for the length of time it took to happen. Think about it. This 'part 2' took 54 years. Fiffyfofuckin YEARS! The sequel to the classic 1980 Barbra/Barry Gibb album came out in 2005., 25 years later. Paul Newman's THE HUSTLER came out in '61, COLOR OF MONEY sequel came out 25 years later. Forget any STAR IS BORN stuff because those are remakes. You'd have to do a sequel to Hitchcock movie, and no, PSYCHO 2 was only 23 years later. Is it ME or does this have the record?
So far no one has mentioned Hugh. I can't go to sleep with Hugh left in such a state of distress. As we all feared there will be at least 2 more episodes of Hugh floundering, angry and making his Stammy cry. It's not going to be pretty. Then right when we think Hugh is beginning to heal ... he doesn't open up to his now ex. Nor to the non-existent mental health professionals on board. Oh no. He opens up to Tyler. Who is also starved for human interaction being a pariah on this ship. And before we know it, Tyler and Hugh end up in bed. Now you might say that seems a bit improbable. But did you see how when Hugh and Tyler ended their very passionate fight scene. Embraced in each others arms. Eyes locked. Breathing in each other's breath. The sparks were palpable. And sexual attraction among men can be merely a physical thing. This could be the one cure, like the pon farr, that quells the insanity swirling thru the trauma he's been experiencing. And after Tyler repeatedly pounds through some of the barriers Hugh has with connecting deep down within his core, the release might open his eyes to his true feelings for his beloved Stammy once more.
Considering this episode as Discovery, it´s really quite good. But come on, Stamets and the doctor "good character" stuff ? These charactares are useless. The return of the now zumbi doctor is pointless and it´s not interesting at all. It´s boring. Regarging Spock and Michael, Discovery screenwriters are pretending that his relationship with Sarek is not important at all. Discovery shamelessly uses Original Star Trek characters to try achieve some empathy because it´s characters, as Tilly, Stamets and most of all, Michael, are so stupid and irritating. The only character that acts as an adult is this new version of Captain Pike. Anson Mount is indeed very charismatic and talented. I almost forgot...those flares all the time sucks.
How do come back from the future to save your life when you've already died in the past. (scratches head.) I Hate Temporal Causality Quantum Mechanics!
I appreciate your perspective. Season 2 has been all over the place for me, but this felt a little more like Trek for a change. Let's have more of this. Thanks for your informative review. Ha! That was my first thought in the ice cave too, but let's stay away from Kelvin.
I liked the original Talosians in TOS pilot/the cage/The Menagerie. The actors were female in TOS however they made them look and sound androgynous. Perhaps a race without gender. They couldn’t do that in discovery because gender identity politics had to have actors have clear gender ques and each shot had to have a male and female Talosian
@@Jack_Stafford Nope, real easy. Just look for a fat unshaven slug, that hates women because they obviously won't give him a second look. You can smell him through RUclips.
@@iainmahoney4255 I watched the best of star trek tos tng Ds9 stv and now there's the orville which caries on the star trek legacy I'm not sure what Discovery is but it's star trek in name only
So, this series cannot hold it's own to the extent that they have to borrow from TOS to not only supplement, BUT SUPPORT, their storyline - and this gets a dick edge from fans? Enterprise, Pike, Spock...all all stolen to make discovery malleable. These guys are taking you for a ride. What was special about this story? Nothing. They are using past accomplishments to try and support a modern failure.
I mean, I certainly understand the argument that Disco relies heavily on previous canon. While I do like Disco, I wish we were getting a story set post-VOY (and without Picard, as much as I'm excited for his series as well). That being said, I do love that this series is doing exactly what a prequel should do, in that it's using it's stories to enhance the original work. For example, I love how this episode gave us greater depth into Pike's relationship with Vina, making a rewatch of the Cage or The Menagerie all that better for it. And I think that Disco has also started to find a voice of it's own beyond TOS, especially through characters like Saru or Culber. Heck, even Pike has been given a wonderful character depth that he never had before. On top of that, one could argue that any addition into ANY franchise is using past accomplishment to support a current story. But the fun of playing in anyone's playground is because story ARE MALLEABLE. And that's what makes them great. Stories are whatever we want them to be. If this one doesn't work for you, I'm sorry, but there's also so many others out there for you. And who knows, maybe the next Trek show you'll love and I'll hate. But the joy of storytelling is that we get to go on that journey. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. But I would rarely argue that the journey wasn't worth it. Even Gene Roddenberry himself said similar.
Another great episode. We were able to straighten out some of the complexities of Burnham's and Spock's sibling relationship. There's some good chemistry between them. As much as I don't care too much about canon it's a well known fact that Spock is the ONLY Vulcan serving in Star Fleet at this time. The female Vulcan admiral was out of place. Just a technical issue but I thought I'd bring that up for the record. I like the Talosians. The new and improved versions are spot on. I'm not really liking Section 31. IF they actually killed/murdered those 3 people just to set-up Spock that destroys their credibility. They're suppose to be safeguarding the Federation Not killing it's citizens. I had no idea their charter included cold blooded murder? If Giorgiou ends up running a portion of Section 31....I don't think that's a good idea. I got the impression that the admirals had no idea who she truly was. This episode has really set-up the eventual reuniting of Vina and Capt Pike. I'm wondering what the status of Talos IV is during present time TNG timeline. It's been a good century since Pike's first interaction with them. I think Stamets and Colbert's relationship is at an impasse. Colbert needs to "find himself" and move forward in his life. Stamets needs to come to terms with the idea that his original Colbert is no more. Would they call this a small mutiny in trek world? Discovery on the run and Section 31 hot on their tail. What do we make of Ariam? Another "I Can't Wait til Next Week's Episode" moment.
I think you’re right. This is one of the strongest episodes of the series yet.
I loved seeing Vina again and the actor they found for her was terrific. The only butthead in the episode was Spock.
Yet I think I understand his resentment towards Michael.
I also loved Pike and Vina interacting again. The reason Pike wanted to go back to Talos IV.
The Pike and Vina scenes were great, and really will make watching The Menagerie again all that much better.
Thank you for not nit picking the crap out of every frame like other channels. Very well done review.
your channel has become my mandatory thing to see after watching the newest episode.
Thanks
It has just become that for me as well.
I think this episode will be talked about for years to come. There is a LOT here to unpack. Thank you for your insight, liked and subbed.
Great review as always! The retro "previously on" was a blast and totally unexpected. Wilson Cruz as Culver is killing it with his acting, so intense and traumatized. Awesome but ultimately sad fight scene with Culver and Ash. Everything Pike was brilliant as usual!
Wilson Cruz just nailing it! And his fight scene was so strong, I really felt for both him and Tyler in that scene. And Anson Mount may be my favorite captain in Trek (which is saying something!)
For me it just hit.....capt pike loves her, she loves him. we know how in the end pikes fate will be, there is a deeper connection between them that they built on, very thankful for that, when he does go back after the accident, he is going home to her...
Oh damn 😥
Huge fan of Discovery. So glad to have more Star Trek in my life again!
This was my favorite Discovery episode of them all. Especially an insight to the Talosians, that they build their culture around memory and barter.
Also it was good to see how much Vina touched Pikes soul. The way Anson Mount shivered when he saw Vina. He was so good.
every single episode.. people hate. Don't watch, end of your problem. Me, never missed an episode since TOS
" Don't watch, end of your problem. "
Headache still doesn't disappear though, because what has been seen can't be unseen, and you still get people trying to force it to fit, and I still try and fail to make it fit and make sense myself.
I think people hate on this show because it wasn't what they wanted it to be. It's to bad, because this is some of the best Trek I have seen. There is still the Federation ideology, but there is also humanity, and failure, and growth from our imperfections.
They are entitled to opinions, but boy are they giving this show a bad rap.
Every show these days which espouses progressive values is attacked by the tiki-torch brigade. Trek has always been progressive. The tiki-torchers are out of touch with reality.
That's called Blind Devotion to something, and when something fails to deliver or Worse, coasts on past excellence and just expects you to take whatever it's shoving down your throat now , that's just really sad. We should be holding them to higher and higher standards, not accepting whatever they shovel out just because they stamp Star Trek on it. If this show were any other show, and didn't have the name Star Trek on it it would have been canceled after the first season that like so many other weird and disconnected sci-fi and fantasy shows have been.
enjoying something does not causate blind devotion. key word "enjoying" .. if others will impose their own brand and unique way of enjoying something to you and don't like the fact that you enjoy what they do not, then that is just simply, how you put it? ah yes.. bigotry!
so reverting back to my previous comment "Don't watch, end of your problem"
I understand the "a-hole Spock" situation as he is experiencing time out of order and, to him, the wound of Michael's betrayal is still fresh. Also, the theme of trauma begets trauma.
Thank you for a great vid. Subscribed!
Its refreshing to see a positive review for a change. I'm finding that Georgio to be less overtly evil than she was in the mirror universe. In the mirror universe she seemed almost cartoonish, like some Flash Gordon villain, a bit over-the-top. I think I like this version better; somehow on some level she seems to actually care for Michael.
In my opinion, she is cartoonish in most of scenes. Perhaps she is a bad actress.
I think she did a wonderful job in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Wires" but I can't remember seeing her as an evil person. And she seemed to be fine as good Georgio. Perhaps she just isn't great as a "bad guy", but with time she seems to be doing better.
Perhaps. What about Sonequa ? Do you consider her a good actress ?
imo Yes. She seems to do well. She's a tad bit wooden, but I think it more has to do with the character Michael than her acting abilities. One might imagine that growing up on Vulcan one might be a little wooden.
Regarding Sonequa/Michael, I don´t see any sense in the overreaction she does all the time. She is always crying or making expressions of suffering.It´s quite strange to anyone who was raised in Vulcan. I consider Michael a troublesome and irritating character, to say the least.
Excellent review.. but a doctor telling an engineer he works too much and they rarely see each other? LOL!! My SO is a doc and it is the complete opposite. We're okay, but many doctors have terrible problems maintaining relationships .. when not working they're constantly catching up with conferences and revisions. Dr.Phlox from 'Enterprise' was probably the best portrayal of the profession within Star Trek.
Ian Heier I loves Phlox. I feel like he never gets the love from the fan community as he deserves
Yey! A fan review that isn’t complaining about the series
I also subbed
Exactly, very excellently and masterfully put. It's great to hear another big fan of Trek like this episode as much as I did and explain the bigger broader areas of everyone's relationships. Well done.
i like to think that the contrasting footage from TOS and the scenes in the cave are kind of the difference between how things actually looked vs. pike's memory; when you think about things, they're sometimes vague, undefined, and lacking in detail, while you remember the general overall of things.
Even after season 3 this is still my favorite episode. The moment between Pike and Vina got me.
Great review thanks
Great recap and analysis, and wow, you got this up quick!
Haha, I try my best to get it up ASAP.
i love the revieu< , i love dicovery
Voq Tyler vs Infested Ariam
You are a good person for listening to , voice clear, Few unneeded foul words and informative. Your Opinion is a lot like mine on this episode. WELL DONE first time seeing your post and do you do one on the Orville?.
Thomas Hill glad you like my reviews! I do occasional posts and updates on The Orville (I did one just last week actually) but I don’t do weekly reviews. Not because I don’t like both, but just my schedule only allows me the time to do either trek or Orville due to them being on the same night. But, like I said, I watch every episodes and try to do regular discussions on it. I’ll also probably do a season wrap up and videos on the Orville once the season is over.
I've missed something from recent episodes. Can you - anyone - fill me in on how Dr. Culber is alive again?
Darren Holcomb dr culber
Was in a different universe he did died
But the spoor dust are living entity s that saved him and created him a new body is a long story
@@canndydrivegaming9831 interresting tho that basically sets up the condition that anybody who dies on the ship just goes to spore heaven where they can easily be retrieved and brought back to the ship without even missing a shift if the crew are on top of it.
Darren Holcomb not really work
That way Tyler had brought culber
In a special universe when discovery was in the mirror universe
The spoor entity
Found him
Is a confusing story
But beautiful story line
The Previously On Star Trek felt very much like a storybook especially with the transitions--like a pop-up book. Kind of reminds me of how I explain the animated series. TAS is sort of the fairytale retelling of TOS era stories, and in a way TOS is that for Discovery. Also they used a web font instead of something official because the back of the E should have been rounded. Yeah, I'm a font nerd!
It is absurd to downplay the relationship between Spock and Sarek pretending that his relationship with Michael was instrumental in Spock's personality formation. It makes no sense Spock to be a victim of discrimination being half Vulcan while Michael is human and so emotional. Another strange thing is her hair being straigth as a child.
It makes perfect sense to me. We've seen many times before that Vulcan's have a heavy disdain for Spock because he is half-human, half-Vulcan, whereas humans they tend to just thumb their noises at in general. Spock, to some, represents an impurity in their species. I mean, we've sadly seen the same thing in real life human society. Look back at the history of racial issues in America. Some people looked down on African-Americans simply because they were black, but often times biracial children of a African-American and a Caucasian person had to face even more direct discrimination from both the black and white communities, for they were seen as not being allowed to be part of either.
And let's not forget that while we didn't see it directly on-screen, Michael was literally being hunted down by logic terrorists on Vulcan for being human, so it's not like Michael didn't face any form of discrimination. In fact, it's obvious that while Spock certainly faced social discrimination for his heritage, Michael faced direct violence for who she was.
We've also seen all the way back in TOS Spock taking direct issue with the term "half-breed" when Kirk used it towards another group.
@@JessieGender1
It would make sense if Spock's past had not been told. If he was a new character to us. It´s just not true. We know his past. We watched Journey to Babel, Star Trek V and Yesteryear. What Discovery does is a dirty trick to associate these unpleasent characters with those we love (from Star Trek). It´s cheap.
18:05 It was Ariam all along.🎵
I had to go watch 'the cage' for the first time. This gives Pike so much depth.
The only problem right now is how the writters are just destroying my soul with the stamets and culber storyline. I hope culber isnt tortured and lost for the rest of the season.
Honestly, if they wanted to retcon Talos IV no longer being the death penalty, I’d actually be fine with that. It never really made sense that Starfleet would be so universally against the death penalty except in this one, random issue.
They let war criminals and genocidal maniacs live. Why do trespassers get the death penalty? Talosians aren’t even that dangerous. They’re too busy poking Vina to do much else.
Love the feel of your channel!
Great commentary on a great episode. I would have liked to have seen the Talos IV plot spread over more than one episode, especially since it was somewhat crowded out by other great B and C stories. I'm one who thought the characters and world of "The Cage" were well thought out by Gene Roddenberry and was Star Trek in its purist form and that it could be expanded upon in very interesting ways (not to the exclusion of the Kirk, Picard, et al stories, of course). I love that Discovery is taking that on, and so skillfully. I'm fine with retconning that the "death penalty" stuff about Talos IV came from this Discovery encounter -- or maybe subsequent ones by who-knows-who. In the original pilot, nothing was said in the closing scenes that "OMG, nobody ever should visit this place again."
Jeff Keller. One episode would have been fine if they just had A plot (planet) and B plot (Pike) and not cluttered up the 45 minute show with a C plot and D plot.
One of the strongest for sure, and one of the star trekiest. The slower pacing helped immensely. Great to see such a turn around for STD.
Seven minutes into your review and I subbed. Great to hear about the more emotional sides of the stories.
Your breakdown of this episode is very well done. I have enjoyed Discovery and agree that this episode really put it all together.
Lol I love the "previously on star trek" section but it tripped me out because the Paramount Plus app doesn't function properly. In particular the watch next function leads to an error screen, so I thought it decided to send me to TOS for some reason
How tf does this keep happening? Btw what a bi**h to let Leeland be manipulated like that. "Say goodbye Spock" "Goodbye Spock" We saw the destruction of Romulus. Earth. Vulcan and Andoria. I'm willing to bet it's those who took over Ariam. The Tyler/Culber thing needed to happen as Saru said(he's quickly becoming my favorite First officer). And my heart when she drove herself from Spock.
"Say goodbye, Spock" is the best sibling inside joke you'll ever see from a Vulcan! Brought a tear to my eye.
@@Mhotepful it reminded me of Data being told the same thing in TNGs 2nd season. It also gave hints of the sass we saw in the Kelvin Timeline. #sassyspockisthebestspock
Why did they show the original talosians, and then change way they look?
I think to a degree, it's kind of them saying, look, even if things don't line up 100% with what they were in the original series in terms of look, they still are in the same canon and universe. It's the story through-line that remains constant and most resonate to today, even if the makeup or effects have changed over 50 years.
That being said, I was mildly joking about the fanny heads, but honestly, I'm kinda sad we didn't see them in this haha.
Loved the depiction of the Talosians - The makeup/prosthetics were great (even though still humans in costume), and they impressively chose to avoid having them use human facial expressions because they've evolved to communicating with just their minds.
"Say goodbye, Spock."
"Goodbye, Spock."
LMAO 😂
They could imply that the Red Angel prevented the Kelvin timeline without going into it enough to be confusing.
After seeing your video I really hope that's the way they're playing Stamets and Culber and that they don't blow it by making Culber turn out to be some kind of Mycelial Network alien or something.
I hope you've seen Wilson Cruz's performance as Rickie Vasquez on My So-Called Life? I fell in love with every single character on that show, and at the time I didn't know any open gay people. The Air Force psychiatrists at the time considered homosexuality a mental disorder linked to pedophilia and every other form of sexual deviancy. It was Rickie who showed me that a gay person is only human. I even wrote a fan fiction with the characters from MSCL as the crew of a Federation starship; it's nice to see that sorta kinda come true, and to see that Cruz has a solid career after MSCL.
I gave up on STD after the first few episodes of S1, mostly because having the lead start a war seemed to go against everything Trek. I'm glad I checked in on S2; the plots are more Trek, Anson Mount as Pike is the very model of a Kirk era starship captain, and they have the advantage of seasonal arcs. Now it's hard to decide whether to watch STD or The Orville first on Friday mornings.
Thank you for the comments on Star Trek Discovery I told everybody he got to give them chance this is a new show this like I'm Enterprise it start off real slow Enterprise Next Generation Auto Star Trek show start on real slow it some episodes of Deep Space Nine I don't like and you Space Nine is one of my favorite episodes Star Trek ever you know that's my favorite Star Trek Deep Space Nine but it's just some some episodes of this track and pulley I'm even they got start off on a when I went to half a leg when they started Voyager we can start off with a half of leg you know even original Star Trek in India with get a chance they start off with a half of that they would have got me to 552 more seasons Star Trek Star Trek the original would have been good you know they probably would have got some more episodes and we was going into the 1970s and it is definitely would have been more episodes and more changes Star Trek it is a slow pace slow show and you got to be patient with it and you got to deliver that to all the fans on your on your RUclips channel until I get mine but people just got to be patient you know you patient get these characters growing and just give me a chance to know let's get past this whole thing on the NFL stream first three seasons okay I mean probably for going to be a drag to it and if they do get a 4456 Sumner what episode do you prime a queen like you okay cuz it's a lot of episodes of next-generation I don't like at 4 after four season no it's not one of my favorite Star Trek anyway including the original and like I said before Deep Space Nine so get that message out in town with the fans and all your RUclips competitors get this show a chance they going to change give it a chance thank you and you you host a wonderful review Star Trek show I like your reviews on RUclips Cory
Thanks! I'm with you, Deep Space Nine is my favorite Trek as well! And I'm doing my best to spread the word of how great Disco is!
23:15 "My breast are real". I just remember that Seinfeld episode.
Nice channel and awesome review!!!!!!
I'm not sure if they want to keep away from The Kelvin Timeline, but I agree that it's different than bringing in the Kelventime line...
There are theories the red angel plot is in part about course correcting the Kelvintime line by in some way preventing it from happening, as it derives from events in the future of the prime timeline..
1. There's a rumor that the Picard series may feature the Red Angel too. And it just happens to be taking place post Spock's & Nero's disappearance after the destruction of Romulas as seen in the prime timeline of 2009 Star Trek, before the Kelvinverse is created (Star Trek 4 has also been shelved, so it's unclear if there will be more Kelvinverse Trek)
2. Leonard Nimoy played a pseudo villainous character on Fringe. Fringe is a Bad Robot Production. So is the Kelvenverse Trek, and like the Kelvinverse Trek and other Bad Robot productions, Alexander Kurtzman and his former writing partner Roberto "Bob" Orci co-created and were involved with Fringe. In the season 4 finale (Brave New World), taking place in an alternate blue universe, William Bell has decided that humanity sucks and he wants it all to start over, so he going to try and collapse the new iterations of the red and blue universe in order to make a brand new one! So if Spock is the red angel here, then there could be similar idea.
3. The dynamics between Leland and Pike also remind me of Nero's and Pike's dynamic in 2009 Trek, which also includes a back story with the Klingons, which is featured in comics, but I think surfaces more because of that in Into Darkness. Nero kept calling Pike "Christopher" in a similar fashion that Leland did.
I loved Fringe, so I'd totally be down for a similar twist as that series. I know some people feel like it's overplayed, and it certainly can become too convoluted and plot focused, but I always like alt-universe and alt-timeline stories. I think some of Trek's best episodes have revolved around stories like that (see Year of Hell, City on the Edge of Forever, Parallels, Trials and Tribble-ations, First Contact, the Xinidi Arc on Enterprise).
@@JessieGender1 I love Fringe and alternate universe stuff too! Being an Abrams fan for about 20 yrs, I always tend to think of Kelvinverse as Alias in Space! But the Fringe collapsing universes plot may be an interesting idea, even though I was still hoping that there would be some more Kelvinverse 'something of another' at some point, but certainty like Discovery a great deal too! :)
It will be interesting to see how the rest of the season unfolds.
Best place to come for the after show - you're a natural. All power to you!
Luke Busby thanks!
Bad Wolf thematic writing from New Who, Billie Piper.
Bernham died as a runaway child
Spock saved her by telling his parents
The Angel is the red scrawl graffiti in each episode
Michael started the series in a space suit, picked a fight with a Klingon, got knocked out, started a direct total war with Klingons that TOS and DS9 said never happened, but Picard said did.
The probe went 500 years in the future and came back as a cyber weapon
Discovery has a cybernetic in the crew, now infected by the probe.
The cybernetics will destroy life in the future
Eventual stop: The City on the Edge of Forever and the Guardian(s)
Michael Bernham MUST DIE. I can live with that.
The writing of this year comes from many of the original first year TOS scripts that got heavily edited. The story style is Lost/Mad Men/The Crossing. The predestination theme is from Doctor Who 2005-present.
I could be wrong. First year came off like the team was way over their head, trying to follow Fullers (fired/quit) series outline and having never written sci fi. They were winging it and borrowing heavily from the Axinar game in 1985 and the Tartigrades video game to get something on the screen for Netflix, who paid for it.
You are correct. Great review! 👍
What a great review, thanks for such a detailed and insightful breakdown!
Thanks!
LOL OMG hundreds of video later this one is awesome. We never got that sit and feel with this crew. It's a shame they got cancelled before they explained the Burn. There are four lights!
This is my favorite review sites of star trek and sci fi.
Its Jeffery Hunter. Two problems I have. Problem one is the Android that is before Data able to miniplate things. However is being controlled by sectin 31. Problem Two is minor The uniforms. If after "The Cage" Why these odd uniforms not the original Gold, Blue and Red?
“Great depth of character for a young Spock” yes. Yes. Great character stories. Super Trek.
Great episode. 🌹
in season 2, discovery goes in a better direction and to me, this show now feels much more like star trek. i can watch it now, without getting angry or sad.. instead of that i am laughing a lot now :D
still.. i cannot say, that i like this show, but i see (and appreciate) all the little changes that have done!
Good Review Jessie 🖖
Dude...you are awesome...thanks
Thanks you! You are awesome yourself!
jeffrey hunter played pike in tos
Hunter was in the pilot, not TOS.
I have hated this Show Right up to the Last Two Episodes Which Felt as if New Writers & a New Director Had Just taken Over Totally Different Feel ..... Much much Better Lets hope This is a Turning Point in this Show .
I think it's super cool how there are layers of interpretation that you reach as a trans person with a history of trauma. Makes your reviews so much more insightful and honestly makes me see each episode in a more positive light.
Thanks! I always love learning how varying perspectives can find differing interpretations of a work. I'm glad you like mine!
So well done, great comments! Esp editing points, love yr ideas.. breast implants... Oh heck all I can say is damn you’re good. Thanks!
"The Red Angel," is either Michael Burhnam or Amanda. My coin is on Michael Burnham.
Lawrence Hawkins. Her name is M I C H A E L. hint hint
Her spacesuit is drawn in the intro for two years. The Red Angel suit is becoming more specific in every episode to be a mod of her suit. Like the probe.
She was supposed to DIE.
Bad Wolf! And The Impossible Girl!
@@STho205 Well, then, Long Live Michael!
I love Star Trek
hahahhah the little cleaners!!!! they were cool :)
They looked kind of like Jet Reno's guys from the season premiere. I wonder if they were the same ones? Or did she re-purpose the cleaners on her ship?
@@JessieGender1 I could see her saying to capt pike, he look i got these little guys that can do this and that hhahah, hope they show more of her :)
The one thing I didn't care for in this episode was the excessive use of lens flares and bright lights in the windows. It was so excessive that it took me out of the story, and ruined it for me.
Hugh "I'm Just Not Into You Like That" Culber.
Helps a great deal to watch The Cage. Not needed but helps.
It does. And this episode (and season in general) just really enhances any rewatch of The Cage, but also especially of The Menagerie.
Not Subtle! in fact, I felt it too overt.
Yeah, the more I think about it, I really dislike the Arham eye reveal at the end of that scene. It felt like too on the head. I really liked the fact that she was lurking in the background of the scene. Still overt, but less beat-you-over-the-head with it. Small knock against the episode overall though.
Jessie, I balled, girl
I teared up at the half-breed line. It was so gut wrenching and both Ethan Peck and Senequa MArtin-Green nailed it. Could really see how that line hurt both of them in such different ways.
@@JessieGender1 yep that was the scene but for me the Stamets and Culber scene started the ball rolling :D
I'm wondering if THIS sequel episode holds the cross entertainment record for the length of time it took to happen. Think about it. This 'part 2' took 54 years. Fiffyfofuckin YEARS! The sequel to the classic 1980 Barbra/Barry Gibb album came out in 2005., 25 years later. Paul Newman's THE HUSTLER came out in '61, COLOR OF MONEY sequel came out 25 years later. Forget any STAR IS BORN stuff because those are remakes. You'd have to do a sequel to Hitchcock movie, and no, PSYCHO 2 was only 23 years later. Is it ME or does this have the record?
I fear MARY POPPINS RETURNS is about 5 months longer
#renewtheorville
So far no one has mentioned Hugh. I can't go to sleep with Hugh left in such a state of distress. As we all feared there will be at least 2 more episodes of Hugh floundering, angry and making his Stammy cry. It's not going to be pretty. Then right when we think Hugh is beginning to heal ... he doesn't open up to his now ex. Nor to the non-existent mental health professionals on board. Oh no.
He opens up to Tyler. Who is also starved for human interaction being a pariah on this ship. And before we know it, Tyler and Hugh end up in bed. Now you might say that seems a bit improbable.
But did you see how when Hugh and Tyler ended their very passionate fight scene. Embraced in each others arms. Eyes locked. Breathing in each other's breath. The sparks were palpable. And sexual attraction among men can be merely a physical thing.
This could be the one cure, like the pon farr, that quells the insanity swirling thru the trauma he's been experiencing. And after Tyler repeatedly pounds through some of the barriers Hugh has with connecting deep down within his core, the release might open his eyes to his true feelings for his beloved Stammy once more.
Considering this episode as Discovery, it´s really quite good. But come on, Stamets and the doctor "good character" stuff ? These charactares are useless. The return of the now zumbi doctor is pointless and it´s not interesting at all. It´s boring. Regarging Spock and Michael, Discovery screenwriters are pretending that his relationship with Sarek is not important at all. Discovery shamelessly uses Original Star Trek characters to try achieve some empathy because it´s characters, as Tilly, Stamets and most of all, Michael, are so stupid and irritating. The only character that acts as an adult is this new version of Captain Pike. Anson Mount is indeed very charismatic and talented. I almost forgot...those flares all the time sucks.
Jeffrrey Hunter! lol
How do come back from the future to save your life when you've already died in the past. (scratches head.) I Hate Temporal Causality Quantum Mechanics!
I appreciate your perspective. Season 2 has been all over the place for me, but this felt a little more like Trek for a change. Let's have more of this. Thanks for your informative review. Ha! That was my first thought in the ice cave too, but let's stay away from Kelvin.
I liked the original Talosians in TOS pilot/the cage/The Menagerie. The actors were female in TOS however they made them look and sound androgynous. Perhaps a race without gender. They couldn’t do that in discovery because gender identity politics had to have actors have clear gender ques and each shot had to have a male and female Talosian
🛸⏳ 🌀 😱🙈
K
Wow, unlike other Star Trek reviewers, you look like you actually take showers.
Oh, making some questionable choices perhaps. In your opinion who looks like they don't take showers?
@@Jack_Stafford Nope, real easy. Just look for a fat unshaven slug, that hates women because they obviously won't give him a second look. You can smell him through RUclips.
I've stopped watching it I'm with the orville
why are you here ?
Your loss..
@@iainmahoney4255 I watched the best of star trek tos tng Ds9 stv and now there's the orville which caries on the star trek legacy I'm not sure what Discovery is but it's star trek in name only
I bet you watch every episode. Its ok my friend come out of the closet
@@jimsnow9286 cbs troll lol
So, this series cannot hold it's own to the extent that they have to borrow from TOS to not only supplement, BUT SUPPORT, their storyline - and this gets a dick edge from fans?
Enterprise, Pike, Spock...all all stolen to make discovery malleable.
These guys are taking you for a ride. What was special about this story? Nothing. They are using past accomplishments to try and support a modern failure.
I mean, I certainly understand the argument that Disco relies heavily on previous canon. While I do like Disco, I wish we were getting a story set post-VOY (and without Picard, as much as I'm excited for his series as well).
That being said, I do love that this series is doing exactly what a prequel should do, in that it's using it's stories to enhance the original work. For example, I love how this episode gave us greater depth into Pike's relationship with Vina, making a rewatch of the Cage or The Menagerie all that better for it. And I think that Disco has also started to find a voice of it's own beyond TOS, especially through characters like Saru or Culber. Heck, even Pike has been given a wonderful character depth that he never had before.
On top of that, one could argue that any addition into ANY franchise is using past accomplishment to support a current story. But the fun of playing in anyone's playground is because story ARE MALLEABLE. And that's what makes them great. Stories are whatever we want them to be. If this one doesn't work for you, I'm sorry, but there's also so many others out there for you. And who knows, maybe the next Trek show you'll love and I'll hate. But the joy of storytelling is that we get to go on that journey. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. But I would rarely argue that the journey wasn't worth it. Even Gene Roddenberry himself said similar.
@@JessieGender1 I disagree with everything you said.
Another great episode. We were able to straighten out some of the complexities of Burnham's and Spock's sibling relationship. There's some good chemistry between them. As much as I don't care too much about canon it's a well known fact that Spock is the ONLY Vulcan serving in Star Fleet at this time. The female Vulcan admiral was out of place. Just a technical issue but I thought I'd bring that up for the record. I like the Talosians. The new and improved versions are spot on. I'm not really liking Section 31. IF they actually killed/murdered those 3 people just to set-up Spock that destroys their credibility. They're suppose to be safeguarding the Federation Not killing it's citizens. I had no idea their charter included cold blooded murder? If Giorgiou ends up running a portion of Section 31....I don't think that's a good idea. I got the impression that the admirals had no idea who she truly was. This episode has really set-up the eventual reuniting of Vina and Capt Pike. I'm wondering what the status of Talos IV is during present time TNG timeline. It's been a good century since Pike's first interaction with them. I think Stamets and Colbert's relationship is at an impasse. Colbert needs to "find himself" and move forward in his life. Stamets needs to come to terms with the idea that his original Colbert is no more. Would they call this a small mutiny in trek world? Discovery on the run and Section 31 hot on their tail. What do we make of Ariam? Another "I Can't Wait til Next Week's Episode" moment.