I think Alan Wake 2 was made with ray tracing in mind because of how big the role of light and shadow is to the game's theme. Maybe you can check that out? It also uses DLSS 3.5 with ray reconstruction and everything.
@@2kliksphilip Alan Wake 2 actually has ray tracing always enabled. If you turn off all the RT settings in the menus, the game will switch to software ray tracing.
I am with AMD for their openness and linux compatibility. But I do get FOMO everytime I see NVIDIA release better tech and I need to wait for AMD to catch up
If it helps, at least you know AMD will keep providing your aging hardware with fresh coats of paint, like with AMD's FSR. Nvidia ditching hardware older than their previous generation is whats going to keep me from using them in the future. Not everybody buys a new GPU every two years, Nvidea...
It's fine, only the 4090 or the 3090/4080 can really do this stuff anyway. At lower resolutions, ray tracing is really annoying with garbled artifacts. It's really going to take until the PS6 era of consoles where the mainstream GPU's can handle these workloads that it'll be standardized. So as it stands, its a nice little gimmick for 4090 owners. Not very representative of the remaining 95% of the user-base.
Thats what nvidia wants you to think. FOMO as marketing. I am on my 3060 with dlss2 and let me tell you. I don't use it at all. only game I felt I needed Upscaling was Starfield. and boy FSR in that game implemented brilliantly. no artifacts at 1080p!
Always with the same, waiting for AMD to catch up and release their worse version of something that Nvidia released one or two years before... AMD has to develop their tech and try to compete, but with this mediocre mentality they will never compete, numbers speak for themselves.
small correction on 11:35, DLSS 3.5 does not always include all the parts, and older 20 and 30 series cards can run DLSS 3.5 with no access to frame generation. DLSS 3.5 refers as you said to the newest toolkit of DLSS options, including the new ray reconstruction all on 20 and 30 series GPUs, but only 40 series can turn on frame generation.
DLSS 3.5 is a version of the dlss suite that includes all the dlss features, so there's a 3.5 version of the upscaling, a 3.5 version of the FG, and RR was introduced in 3.5. Some cards can't use all these features, but they're still using DLSS 3.5 even if they're just using the upscaling. It's Nvidia's fault that they made it so confusing by conflating the version numbers with the features.
It'd be really interesting if you could make a similar analysis in Alan Wake 2 which to me, seems like an overall better implementation of raytracing and ray reconstruction. Thanks for this video anyway, always a pleasure to watch your work !
Yeah, Alan Wake 2 is not just using pathtracing. Even with 'RT Off" it's still using a software based path tracing model along with mesh shaders (primiitives) so it's always pretty heavy (especially for GPUs that don't support mesh shaders). That said, this is an Apples to Oranges comparison. Cyberpunk is a much faster paced game with far more active and demanding gameplay scenes than anything in Alan Wake 2. It's also an open world game with much longer draw distances.
Honestly for all the hate on Nvidia, it is easy to forget the massive investments and advancements they are bringing to AI and gaming. Whether people like it or not, this is the way gaming and many industries are headed and Nvidia are way ahead
If it wasn't for corporate they would not greenlight the R&D cost assosiated with developing Tensor cores + supporting software. I give full props to Nvidia for pushing this tech. And taking the risks needed (because financially they surely can) And for AMD to make a public good instead of proprietary @@TheAlienpope
@@mirukuteea yeah. Main reason to why is probably because "I hate the leadership, market department and the corporate Nvidia!" doesn't really roll of the tongue as easily lol
Reallly think NVIDIA should rename their thing to like "NVIDIA DL-Game Enhancement Suite" With DLSS Super Resolution, NVIDIA Frame Generation, and DLSS Ray Reconstruction, NVIDIA Reflex, and heck, maybe even NVIDIA Image Scaling as the named features within it.
Well deserved sponsorship from both parties IMHO! You obviously deserve it for all the amazing things you do, but Nvidia (I'd argue "for once") also deserves it for managing to ship a technology that stands up to _your_ level of scrutiny, very good match :-)
@@keatonwastakenmore powerful gpu generates less heat when doing the same thing compared to old gpus, 40 series is actually much better on power efficiency, albeit not much improvement on performance compared to the 30 series.
@@ausar567 Applies to laptops too? Damn didn't know that. Legit got a smaller case and twin fan edition for my 4070, yet it never hits over 50 degrees. If laptops have reached a similar point, thats good news!
@@Grandmaster-Kushthe tech will never be refined for normal people. The 2060 super, 3060 and 4060 all perform the same. Nvidia has a hard performance target for what customers will receive for $300, and it’ll never be good enough to path trace. And if the 4060ti and 3060ti being the same thing is indicative of a trend, by the time path tracing is accessible only 80 class gpus will be able to do anyways, at probably a $2000 cost, as the lower end gpus will be stuck at a specific performance target.
Photorealistic games ? sorry but RayTracing is bullshit and it is kinda stupid if lightning and reflection cost you 200% of your normal Performance. Photorealistic can be done already and without RayTracing, the best will be if AMD and Nvidia and Intel will go the RayTracing card as extra and not implement it in to the GPU. So gpu's will be WAY cheaper and people can chose if they want to be the beta testers for this tech 20 or 30 years too late because RayTracing is a old tech in reality.
Companies are not going to let go of 1080p anytime soon.. They are going to keep handicapping performance on **60 series/AMD equivalent cards to make them a '1080p beast' but not anything special for 1440p because it would be quite a loss for them as cheaper cards providing adequate performance at higher resolutions will drastically take away sales from higher end/priced cards.. So regardless, The 5060 will still be marketed for 1080p gaming/workloads whereas it should be able to run 1440p easily.. Edit : I absolutely want this to age badly and be proven wrong..
This game went from crysis pc melter meme to literal rendering sandbox. Its crazy how much the look of this game changed from release and with how much you can change it now. And its almost all lighting related
I did always wonder where the ghosting came from when I played this game. And what happened to the shadows further away. I've always played with raytracing on, because it's basically THE game to play with it. Now I know why that was happening.
@@overdark33nope. Ray Reconstruction adds a fuckton of ghosting. Besides, TAA turns off when DLSS is on anyway since DLSS replaces the AA implementation. Having said that, it also makes rainy night look completely pristine. That's where it really shines.
I'm playing on a 4070 with path tracing. When I use dlss 3.5 the reflections and qualities are definitely better, but very ghosty. Without RR the quality is slightly less clear, but DRAMATICALLY less blurring. I've been playing PL without 3.5 because the ghosting is just too much. Hopefully this can be fixed soon as most people simply don't use it. Very informative and great video.
I appreciate that you took the time to point out that while the path tracing and ray tracing methods available can certainly look superior, they may obstruct the thematic tone or style artists are trying to convey, as I think that's going to be a difficult line for devs to walk until everything is completely compatible with that tech.
i would love to see a game like kena: bridge of spirits, or a kingdom hearts game with full on path-tracing and RR. i think it would fit the visuals really well as these types of games tend to go for the offline cg render look
I hope nvidia paid a fartton of money for this video, because it's probably the best explained video for DLSS 3.5 and it has the most easy to understand comparisons I've seen yet
Yeh its the Ray Regeneration that causes it, gives better texture quality and a more stable picture, but distant less lit objects smear. Only thing that would help is setting ray's to 1 and bounces to 3 or 4 and increase the base resolution. At 4k base i can do with 2 rays 2 bounces and it looks ok for most part. @@vSoulreaver
A note regarding Control, the developer who made the HDR mod for Control has also added in it a high fidelity option for ray tracing which doubles the number of rays, halving performance but reducing noise significantly - and also he's not opposed to adding DLSS 3.5 support as well but _first_ someone would need to donate him a 4000 series card to work on that... in case anyone has a spare RTX 4000 card laying around 😐
@@Stef3m He didn't ask for an RTX 40 - he just said (on the mod's official page on PCGamingWiki, not sure if I can post links on RUclips) that if he had an RTX 40 card available he'd feel obligated to try adding ray reconstruction, but since he doesn't it's not something worth investigating.
@@Stef3m I'm sorry, I literally can't - RUclips seems to be deleting all of my attempts to reply. But it's filoppi's HDR Patch on the PC Gaming Wiki - he talks about this on page 10 of the comments there. Please don't send anything without letting them know first!
Pathtracing without denoiser is pretty much how I see irl, except it's less noticeable. Just like pathtracing, it becomes more obvious in dark. People with visual snow syndrome would understand exactly what I mean.
Wow that sounds infuriating. I can't see any visual snow no matter how hard I try to look for or notice it even in the most extreme cases. its almost completely imperceptible even when I wake up in the middle of the night in a pitch dark room and try to look out at the night sky and stars at night. and after just a minute i can't notice even the most miniscule insignificant amount of "visual snow" at all anymore. It just looks like black hole void of nothing when i close my eyes in a dark room
One interesting aspect is that you can enable Ray Reconstruction (through config file edits) even when not using the proper PATH tracing - just Ray Tracing. It offers a big quality bump, without having to run full Path tracing. Yes, there are some artifacts. Worth it imho.
thanks for posting this, especially showing all of the artifacts that come with RT and upscaling. people look at me like i'm crazy when i tell them i don't want to play my games with ghosting, tiny black bugs on every surface or noisy shadows which pop-in as you walk up to them. now i have a concise reference to show them exactly what i mean. playing portal rtx for myself has changed my mind on the technology. it's certainly not worth the 98-99% reduction in framerate in older games like quake 2 and portal without more major improvements like this. as you showed with your comparisons, it definitely makes screenshots look more realistic but it detracts from the intended experience - even on a $2000 USD graphics card. RTX branding is 5 years old now and it feels like there's only one desktop graphics card which is even remotely close to making the technology worth the development time.
The more technical videos I see of pathtracing/ raytracing, the more impressive I find old-style rasterization. I appreciate it takes a significant amount of time for developers to create scenes with the correct lighting, and that raytracing offers the possibility of more rapidly creating a realistically lit environment, but in so many of these comparisons I really don't find raytracing to look very much better than rasterized graphics.
Some games show how good ray tracing can be if the game is developed/uodated to only use ray tracing as its lighting solution. (Metro Exodus ED, Cyberpunk with overdrive)
DLSS has had a very interesting development history. Aside from gpu politics, Nvidia engineers are really doing something great here. The Finals has been a great ray tracing experience with RTGI, and it also performs incredibly well. RTGI really does impress in that game with how dynamic everything is, now the lighting can play catch up. No awkward color switching when objects are destroyed, everything is consistent, which makes the action on screen more believable and more immersive. It's almost how I felt when playing Portal RTX or Cyberpunk with PT, tho those two titles impress for doing something never done before.
oh this is COOL, I just watched the RTX video on dying light 2, and it got me really excited for what raytracing does, because I just purchased a 4080 Super, but now seeing that the technology has also improved its performance and clarity?! Im even more excited!!
Because it is called 3.5, i thought nvidia just didnt care about older rtx cards, but im really happy that this improvement inn all raytracing is coming to all cards
Did you really trick Nvidia into paying you to make a video that you were going to make anyway? And they even let you make fun of the DLSS naming scheme. Well done, it didn't feel like a sponsored video at all.
RT Psycho does not add more rays to the existing effects; rather, it simply adds one more RT effect, which is a single light bounce from the sun/moon direct lighting.
Sat out 7 years of CPU and GPU Upgrades until I recently made the switch from an i9 9900KF / GTX 1080 Ti combo to a now i9 13900KF / RTX 4090 one... Cost me about an arm and a leg ( new MB, new RAM, new PSU, new AIO Cooler, etc... ) but man was it worth it... Playing Cyberpunk 2077 in its full glory was a treat as is playing any other game I skipped during that time that would have required an RTX Card to shine in their full glory...
@@2kliksphilip Yea, but the GTX 1080 Ti was 7 years and this being a discussion about Graphics I'd argue it being the more relevant component over say the CPU despite me lumping the two together to explain the jump in performance I've experienced.
Not in cyberpunk for some reason, literally everything has beautiful reflections with path tracing on EXCEPT the mirrors you can customize your character at which I thought was pretty funny.
It's called DLSS 3.5 because it's a chronological addition to the "dlss package" that way, games can display their "dlss version" to players, and we instantly understand what set of features are supported out of the "package"
There's something extremely funny about zooming way in on a reflective table "hey look we eliminated some weird lines on a reflection!" where next to it an NPC's arm is fully clipping through a stack of 1995 Pixar-looking coffee cups that are also levitating above the table. V I S U A L F I D E L I T Y
Great video. You really should have included a rainy shot, it’s insane how much of an improvement ray reconstruction is during rain. I didn’t even realize the reason I thought cyberpunk looked bad in the rain was the denoisers absolutely sabotaging upsampling.
AMD's denoising should look the same as pathtracing with RR off, since they haven't yet released their own denoiser and the alternative is using the game's denoiser which is used in all the ray traced frames without RR.
I never played a game with raytracing on myself and I wasn't even aware of all the issues and artifacts with raytracing that ray reconstruction solves. But now knowing of all these issues makes me want to try ray tracing even less because with DLSS 3.5 you're foreced to upscale which comes with it's own issues and artifacts. I feel just normal rasterization without any upscaling is still superior, even if the lighting looks a bit worse.
the absolute bitrate killer at 1:04 started making the video stutter and buffer in a way I've never heard before and I thought it was an intentional editing choice
What they've accomplished in Alan Wake 2 is incredible. RR there produces much more visually coherent image, to the point that I don't even feel like I'm using DLSS. In Cyberpunk it's not the case. However, I haven't tried the latest patch, maybe they've improved it.
4:57 what did he mean by that? How do you reduce it? Is it alongside setting the sharpness to 0 you render at a higher res? Am i correct? And i didnt quite understand him, is that a drawback of RR? ray tracing? DLSS (upscaling part)? The game as a whole? I dont get it. Where does the "smoothed but sharpened" image come from? How can you get the ultimate image with no drawbacks? I know this is a sponsored vid, but it would have been nice to learn more about RR. Since its the most confusing part of DLSS due to it being a black box.
I used the trick to get dlss 3.5 in cyberpunk without path tracing and it works very well, you get noise in dark shadows but for the increase visuals and performance i think its worth it do to
Ray reconstruction and frame generation is nice to have, but the main Nvidia advantage is still just the image quality of the upscaling itself. AMD really needs to match NV's upscaling quality asap, especially cause the consoles also rely on FSR.
EDIT 1: mess around with DLSS tweaker and adaptive PT for better results ;) EDIT 2: I managed to reduce the noise by making the sharpness 0 and DLDSR smoothness 100 while using DLSS I don't know how you didn't notice RR's biggest flaw which is oily streets (especially outside Dogtown) and noisy lighting on character models while using DLSS upscale no matter the quality of it, it's the biggest turn off for me because you spend most of the time talking to characters and driving/walking around. Best thing to do for me at least for now is using FSR 2 (since it's a post processor and doesn't ruin the quality of PT) + PT with no RR. Also maybe because I'm using DLDSR, it's not behaving well with RR, but I did notice it too on my native resolution (1080p). Sadly RR isn't perfect for now, so pick your poison.
Pathtracing is what NVIDIA should’ve pushed when the RTX 20 series first came out. Pathtracing is really a game changer, on my 4080 Cyberpunk and Alan Wake II look phenomenal. Thanks for the video, Phillip.
@@2kliksphilip It's insane to me that in 2 generations we've got from Path traced Quake 2, then Portal with RTX remix and now Cyberpunk, a full modern AAA title. Path tracing was really cool in Quake 2 and it was pretty clear that in a while this would be the main way of rendering games, I just didn't expect it to come so soon.
I used to hate on Nvidia's AI stuff more but I gotta say, I think they accurately predicted that raw horsepower increases would slow down and they needed to do something else to keep pushing the needle forward. Now that the tech has had a few years to cook, it's pretty damn impressive. I'm extremely sensitive to artifacting and ghosting and I was blown away with how good framegen is. It's not perfect for the fps increase you get it's insane.
I always thought ray tracing is a absolutely non-convincing novelty and it distracted me by how slow its saturation is and all the artifacts.. but that looks much better now.
No, RTX3060 supports DLSS 3.5 but doesn’t have frame gen. So it’s incorrect to say that DLSS 3.5 means all features are included, since frame gen isn’t on a RTX3060
Man's gotta eat but it's trully sad that they got to o'l Phil... Also, DLSS 3.5 still feels like a beta, it completely deletes shadows in Alan Wake 2 to the point where half the fences don't project shadows.
Something I never understood is despite DLSS being an ai-powered frame generator, older RTX cards cant use new DLSS versions. Isnt it all the same generator, just upgraded? And if it's truly "free frames" that don't strain the GPU then why shouldn't someone be allowed to use DLSS 3.5 on their 2080 for example?
All RTX cards can you new DLSS versions they just can't use the frame gen part of it. The reason for that per nVidia is that the old cards lack the additional optical flow accelerators which are used to calculate where stuff is moving on screen. Old cards have these too but the newer ones have units of these accelerators dedicated only for frame gen. However you have to keep in mind that that is from nVidia and could be just PR talk to safe face.
@@roamn4979People have tried running Frame Generation on 30-series cards (since they have a Gen 1 OFA, but not the Gen 2 OFA that the 40-series cards use), and it's a complete mess. The optical flow acceleration on previous cards just isn't advanced enough. You really do need a 40-series card for Frame Generation to work.
It's just a developer version (and those don't go down). Essentially bad sematic versioning, since it should have been 3.1 or 3.2 given earlier library versions and that fact this was a "minor" update. It's essentially how software versioning has always worked.
I think Alan Wake 2 was made with ray tracing in mind because of how big the role of light and shadow is to the game's theme. Maybe you can check that out? It also uses DLSS 3.5 with ray reconstruction and everything.
DF made already an excellent video about Alan Wake 2
@@2kliksphilip Alan Wake 2 actually has ray tracing always enabled. If you turn off all the RT settings in the menus, the game will switch to software ray tracing.
great thought, reminds me of Control
@@pixelvahl thats crazy
@@8304u it's basically the same as unreal engine 5's lumen tech.
I am with AMD for their openness and linux compatibility. But I do get FOMO everytime I see NVIDIA release better tech and I need to wait for AMD to catch up
If it helps, at least you know AMD will keep providing your aging hardware with fresh coats of paint, like with AMD's FSR. Nvidia ditching hardware older than their previous generation is whats going to keep me from using them in the future.
Not everybody buys a new GPU every two years, Nvidea...
And not only that, but amd tech works on nvidia gpus
It's fine, only the 4090 or the 3090/4080 can really do this stuff anyway. At lower resolutions, ray tracing is really annoying with garbled artifacts. It's really going to take until the PS6 era of consoles where the mainstream GPU's can handle these workloads that it'll be standardized. So as it stands, its a nice little gimmick for 4090 owners. Not very representative of the remaining 95% of the user-base.
Thats what nvidia wants you to think. FOMO as marketing. I am on my 3060 with dlss2 and let me tell you. I don't use it at all. only game I felt I needed Upscaling was Starfield. and boy FSR in that game implemented brilliantly. no artifacts at 1080p!
Always with the same, waiting for AMD to catch up and release their worse version of something that Nvidia released one or two years before... AMD has to develop their tech and try to compete, but with this mediocre mentality they will never compete, numbers speak for themselves.
small correction on 11:35, DLSS 3.5 does not always include all the parts, and older 20 and 30 series cards can run DLSS 3.5 with no access to frame generation. DLSS 3.5 refers as you said to the newest toolkit of DLSS options, including the new ray reconstruction all on 20 and 30 series GPUs, but only 40 series can turn on frame generation.
Didn't take you for such a pedant considering your own videos' quality.
@@MegaAdeny💀
DLSS 3.5 is a version of the dlss suite that includes all the dlss features, so there's a 3.5 version of the upscaling, a 3.5 version of the FG, and RR was introduced in 3.5. Some cards can't use all these features, but they're still using DLSS 3.5 even if they're just using the upscaling. It's Nvidia's fault that they made it so confusing by conflating the version numbers with the features.
im surprised he got it wrong, not enough research on his end
THIS!
1:23 I love how similar this looks to a picture taken from a DSLR at high ISO. Goes to show how accurately this technology mimics reality.
I love your deep dives into tech like this, you have such a good way of presenting the information!
Well, this one is a paid promotion. So, chances are he's only showing the good aspects of Nvidia tech
dude your videos are so simple to understand it makes me feel smart
It'd be really interesting if you could make a similar analysis in Alan Wake 2 which to me, seems like an overall better implementation of raytracing and ray reconstruction.
Thanks for this video anyway, always a pleasure to watch your work !
They put a lot of work implementing RT properly in AW2, even without RR RT looks really good
@@TerraWare I mean with RT Off in settings it still uses software RT.
@@x0Fang0x Right, they do
Yeah, Alan Wake 2 is not just using pathtracing. Even with 'RT Off" it's still using a software based path tracing model along with mesh shaders (primiitives) so it's always pretty heavy (especially for GPUs that don't support mesh shaders).
That said, this is an Apples to Oranges comparison. Cyberpunk is a much faster paced game with far more active and demanding gameplay scenes than anything in Alan Wake 2. It's also an open world game with much longer draw distances.
Really hope he does, and it seems likely after all his ray-tracing videos.
Honestly for all the hate on Nvidia, it is easy to forget the massive investments and advancements they are bringing to AI and gaming. Whether people like it or not, this is the way gaming and many industries are headed and Nvidia are way ahead
The hate is targeted at the corporate part of nvidia. Their engineers are and always were heroes.
If it wasn't for corporate they would not greenlight the R&D cost assosiated with developing Tensor cores + supporting software. I give full props to Nvidia for pushing this tech. And taking the risks needed (because financially they surely can) And for AMD to make a public good instead of proprietary @@TheAlienpope
@@TheAlienpope But people always criticize nvidia as a single entity
@@mirukuteea yeah. Main reason to why is probably because "I hate the leadership, market department and the corporate Nvidia!" doesn't really roll of the tongue as easily lol
@@TheAlienpope tell that to the people who literally crucifies Nvidia as one and hatred with all of their thing
Reallly think NVIDIA should rename their thing to like
"NVIDIA DL-Game Enhancement Suite"
With DLSS Super Resolution, NVIDIA Frame Generation, and DLSS Ray Reconstruction, NVIDIA Reflex, and heck, maybe even NVIDIA Image Scaling as the named features within it.
Well deserved sponsorship from both parties IMHO! You obviously deserve it for all the amazing things you do, but Nvidia (I'd argue "for once") also deserves it for managing to ship a technology that stands up to _your_ level of scrutiny, very good match :-)
Upgraded recently to RTX 4080 laptop and the performance in all games is just insane.
Which laptop did you buy?
How hot does it run lol, I last had a 1660ti laptop an that bastard would hit 80s after 20 minutes of gameplay.
@@keatonwastakenmore powerful gpu generates less heat when doing the same thing compared to old gpus, 40 series is actually much better on power efficiency, albeit not much improvement on performance compared to the 30 series.
@@ausar567 Applies to laptops too? Damn didn't know that.
Legit got a smaller case and twin fan edition for my 4070, yet it never hits over 50 degrees.
If laptops have reached a similar point, thats good news!
@@keatonwastakenefficiency is always most impactful in laptops! Thats where you're capped by heat and power the most.
This is very exciting, just one more step towards full photorealistic games at playable fps.
This is very exciting...... for filthy rich gamers
@@JVCA44 Why i'm skipping the 2000,3000,4000 and coming series until the tech is refined.
@@Grandmaster-Kushthe tech will never be refined for normal people. The 2060 super, 3060 and 4060 all perform the same. Nvidia has a hard performance target for what customers will receive for $300, and it’ll never be good enough to path trace. And if the 4060ti and 3060ti being the same thing is indicative of a trend, by the time path tracing is accessible only 80 class gpus will be able to do anyways, at probably a $2000 cost, as the lower end gpus will be stuck at a specific performance target.
Photorealistic games ? sorry but RayTracing is bullshit and it is kinda stupid if lightning and reflection cost you 200% of your normal Performance.
Photorealistic can be done already and without RayTracing, the best will be if AMD and Nvidia and Intel will go the RayTracing card as extra and not implement it in to the GPU.
So gpu's will be WAY cheaper and people can chose if they want to be the beta testers for this tech 20 or 30 years too late because RayTracing is a old tech in reality.
Companies are not going to let go of 1080p anytime soon.. They are going to keep handicapping performance on **60 series/AMD equivalent cards to make them a '1080p beast' but not anything special for 1440p because it would be quite a loss for them as cheaper cards providing adequate performance at higher resolutions will drastically take away sales from higher end/priced cards.. So regardless, The 5060 will still be marketed for 1080p gaming/workloads whereas it should be able to run 1440p easily..
Edit : I absolutely want this to age badly and be proven wrong..
This is absolutely insightful of the inner working of DLSS 3.5, great stuff bro.
This game went from crysis pc melter meme to literal rendering sandbox. Its crazy how much the look of this game changed from release and with how much you can change it now. And its almost all lighting related
Cyberpunk 2077 has better art direction than Crysis by a lot.
I did always wonder where the ghosting came from when I played this game. And what happened to the shadows further away. I've always played with raytracing on, because it's basically THE game to play with it. Now I know why that was happening.
@@overdark33nope. Ray Reconstruction adds a fuckton of ghosting. Besides, TAA turns off when DLSS is on anyway since DLSS replaces the AA implementation.
Having said that, it also makes rainy night look completely pristine. That's where it really shines.
@@overdark33 When you turn on dlss, taa is being replaced by dlaa.
I'm playing on a 4070 with path tracing. When I use dlss 3.5 the reflections and qualities are definitely better, but very ghosty. Without RR the quality is slightly less clear, but DRAMATICALLY less blurring. I've been playing PL without 3.5 because the ghosting is just too much. Hopefully this can be fixed soon as most people simply don't use it. Very informative and great video.
I appreciate that you took the time to point out that while the path tracing and ray tracing methods available can certainly look superior, they may obstruct the thematic tone or style artists are trying to convey, as I think that's going to be a difficult line for devs to walk until everything is completely compatible with that tech.
i would love to see a game like kena: bridge of spirits, or a kingdom hearts game with full on path-tracing and RR. i think it would fit the visuals really well as these types of games tend to go for the offline cg render look
oh, Kena definitely. it already looks good without RT and now imaging it with path tracing would be awesome.
Omg yes Kena is such a great game with great colours
I hope nvidia paid a fartton of money for this video, because it's probably the best explained video for DLSS 3.5 and it has the most easy to understand comparisons I've seen yet
The one dealbreaker for me (at least in cyberpunk 2077 currently) is the oily upscaled oversharpened look. He even talks about this at 4:45
there is a slider to go from 0 to 1 with increments of .05 i think
the one dealbreaker for me is the fact that AMD will never support this kind of stuff which means i cant use it :P
@@CPSPD fair point lmao
@@Rem_NL Yeah the sharpness slider really doesn't fix it.
Yeh its the Ray Regeneration that causes it, gives better texture quality and a more stable picture, but distant less lit objects smear. Only thing that would help is setting ray's to 1 and bounces to 3 or 4 and increase the base resolution. At 4k base i can do with 2 rays 2 bounces and it looks ok for most part. @@vSoulreaver
Ray reconstruction is getting rid of some of the ghosting, but is adding a lot of new
A note regarding Control, the developer who made the HDR mod for Control has also added in it a high fidelity option for ray tracing which doubles the number of rays, halving performance but reducing noise significantly - and also he's not opposed to adding DLSS 3.5 support as well but _first_ someone would need to donate him a 4000 series card to work on that... in case anyone has a spare RTX 4000 card laying around 😐
Can you post the link to him asking for a RTX 40?
@@Stef3m He didn't ask for an RTX 40 - he just said (on the mod's official page on PCGamingWiki, not sure if I can post links on RUclips) that if he had an RTX 40 card available he'd feel obligated to try adding ray reconstruction, but since he doesn't it's not something worth investigating.
@@KillahMate Can you provide the link? I guess is time to send him a 4090, I know his name and the address of Remedy is easy to find
Why he needs 4000 series for it? 3.5 and RR is supported on all RTX cards. Unless he is speaking about Frame Generation only.
@@Stef3m I'm sorry, I literally can't - RUclips seems to be deleting all of my attempts to reply. But it's filoppi's HDR Patch on the PC Gaming Wiki - he talks about this on page 10 of the comments there. Please don't send anything without letting them know first!
The Talos Principle 2 releases tomorrow, and I hope you're as excited for it as I am.
Am I the only one that loves when Phillip uploads a computer graphics video
Yes, you are the only one!
Yes. I don’t care about graphics because every time I play a new game I get bored and play donkey kong country instead.
Pathtracing without denoiser is pretty much how I see irl, except it's less noticeable. Just like pathtracing, it becomes more obvious in dark. People with visual snow syndrome would understand exactly what I mean.
Wow that sounds infuriating. I can't see any visual snow no matter how hard I try to look for or notice it even in the most extreme cases.
its almost completely imperceptible even when I wake up in the middle of the night in a pitch dark room and try to look out at the night sky and stars at night. and after just a minute i can't notice even the most miniscule insignificant amount of "visual snow" at all anymore.
It just looks like black hole void of nothing when i close my eyes in a dark room
GET THAT BAG PHILIP
one of the most serious toned videos 2kliksphilip has put out and i love it
Well, he said at the start it’s paid promotion for nVidia.
Dennis's blog on Teardown shows how important when it comes to natural path tracing implementetions and burden of denoisers in general
I really hope nvidia paid you well for this. You absolutely deserve it for not doing cs gambling site promotions instead.
honestly if the noise was more stable, it wouldn't look too bad
Man, this video is so good. The in-depth is so much better than any other video I've seen! I just found your channel! Easy subscribe!
One interesting aspect is that you can enable Ray Reconstruction (through config file edits) even when not using the proper PATH tracing - just Ray Tracing.
It offers a big quality bump, without having to run full Path tracing. Yes, there are some artifacts. Worth it imho.
thanks for posting this, especially showing all of the artifacts that come with RT and upscaling. people look at me like i'm crazy when i tell them i don't want to play my games with ghosting, tiny black bugs on every surface or noisy shadows which pop-in as you walk up to them. now i have a concise reference to show them exactly what i mean.
playing portal rtx for myself has changed my mind on the technology. it's certainly not worth the 98-99% reduction in framerate in older games like quake 2 and portal without more major improvements like this.
as you showed with your comparisons, it definitely makes screenshots look more realistic but it detracts from the intended experience - even on a $2000 USD graphics card. RTX branding is 5 years old now and it feels like there's only one desktop graphics card which is even remotely close to making the technology worth the development time.
Kliks "take a look at these plants" philip
Take a closer look at that snout!
"We can have things like that now", yeah right, maybe for people with infinite budget
Just Install the infinity money mod
I really really appreciate that you mention directly that this is a sponsored video and you are one of the few creators I trust still being honest.
The more technical videos I see of pathtracing/ raytracing, the more impressive I find old-style rasterization. I appreciate it takes a significant amount of time for developers to create scenes with the correct lighting, and that raytracing offers the possibility of more rapidly creating a realistically lit environment, but in so many of these comparisons I really don't find raytracing to look very much better than rasterized graphics.
Some games show how good ray tracing can be if the game is developed/uodated to only use ray tracing as its lighting solution. (Metro Exodus ED, Cyberpunk with overdrive)
DLSS has had a very interesting development history. Aside from gpu politics, Nvidia engineers are really doing something great here. The Finals has been a great ray tracing experience with RTGI, and it also performs incredibly well. RTGI really does impress in that game with how dynamic everything is, now the lighting can play catch up. No awkward color switching when objects are destroyed, everything is consistent, which makes the action on screen more believable and more immersive. It's almost how I felt when playing Portal RTX or Cyberpunk with PT, tho those two titles impress for doing something never done before.
That non-de-noised image is a cool effect for radioactivity. Could you imagine an RTX remix of Fallout 3 or New Vegas that does that?
oh this is COOL, I just watched the RTX video on dying light 2, and it got me really excited for what raytracing does, because I just purchased a 4080 Super, but now seeing that the technology has also improved its performance and clarity?! Im even more excited!!
Very impressive.. From earlier 3.5 examples, it didn’t seem like such a big deal, but this is substsntial imo. Great showcase!!
this is actually huge, maybe now raytracing/pathtracing can actually become viable
Because it is called 3.5, i thought nvidia just didnt care about older rtx cards, but im really happy that this improvement inn all raytracing is coming to all cards
the visual noise is exactly how our eyes see the world, can't see the any problem with that.
Did you really trick Nvidia into paying you to make a video that you were going to make anyway? And they even let you make fun of the DLSS naming scheme. Well done, it didn't feel like a sponsored video at all.
This was an incredible video, I hope nvidia is paying you a pretty penny for this detailed analysis
it does not work for example you get freezes also RD2 does not allow it as it reinstall the old dll
One of the things ray/path tracing should do in the future is 1. Reduce game size 2. Reduce dev time 3. As it already does, improve visuals
RT Psycho does not add more rays to the existing effects; rather, it simply adds one more RT effect, which is a single light bounce from the sun/moon direct lighting.
Sat out 7 years of CPU and GPU Upgrades until I recently made the switch from an i9 9900KF / GTX 1080 Ti combo to a now i9 13900KF / RTX 4090 one... Cost me about an arm and a leg ( new MB, new RAM, new PSU, new AIO Cooler, etc... ) but man was it worth it... Playing Cyberpunk 2077 in its full glory was a treat as is playing any other game I skipped during that time that would have required an RTX Card to shine in their full glory...
@@2kliksphilip Yea, but the GTX 1080 Ti was 7 years and this being a discussion about Graphics I'd argue it being the more relevant component over say the CPU despite me lumping the two together to explain the jump in performance I've experienced.
Are we finally getting mirrors back in modern games 😳
We really did go full circle.
Not in cyberpunk for some reason, literally everything has beautiful reflections with path tracing on EXCEPT the mirrors you can customize your character at which I thought was pretty funny.
it's 2023 and we still didn't manage to make a button to switch eye adaptation effects off mandatory
Kiroshi needs a new model!
the irony of showing milliseconds on a seizure warning count down
That was the best "ad" I've seen in a long time, thanks for the vid!
Wow all these settings most people will turn off.
It's called DLSS 3.5 because it's a chronological addition to the "dlss package" that way, games can display their "dlss version" to players, and we instantly understand what set of features are supported out of the "package"
How do you enable raw path tracing mode ?
After getting a quarter of the way into this video, I realized this isn't the sort of thing you can watch at 480p.
There's something extremely funny about zooming way in on a reflective table "hey look we eliminated some weird lines on a reflection!" where next to it an NPC's arm is fully clipping through a stack of 1995 Pixar-looking coffee cups that are also levitating above the table. V I S U A L F I D E L I T Y
This is impressive, it helps with a lot of the issues I noticed when playing cyberpunk originally with rt
Great video. You really should have included a rainy shot, it’s insane how much of an improvement ray reconstruction is during rain. I didn’t even realize the reason I thought cyberpunk looked bad in the rain was the denoisers absolutely sabotaging upsampling.
I wouldn't have known this was a sponsored video if you didn't mention it. That's a good thing, well done!
Hey nvidia fixed my biggest gripe with raytracing
>Philip posts video
>Day gets a little bit better :)
Wow this is impressively thorough. Really apprecaite it, thanks
I understand why you didn't do it here but a comparison to AMD denoising would be great in another video.
AMD's denoising should look the same as pathtracing with RR off, since they haven't yet released their own denoiser and the alternative is using the game's denoiser which is used in all the ray traced frames without RR.
I never played a game with raytracing on myself and I wasn't even aware of all the issues and artifacts with raytracing that ray reconstruction solves. But now knowing of all these issues makes me want to try ray tracing even less because with DLSS 3.5 you're foreced to upscale which comes with it's own issues and artifacts. I feel just normal rasterization without any upscaling is still superior, even if the lighting looks a bit worse.
Fizzing is a really good word to describe that.
the absolute bitrate killer at 1:04 started making the video stutter and buffer in a way I've never heard before and I thought it was an intentional editing choice
The non digital sharpness of nonrt mixed with the lighting of rt would be perfect
Yeah, DLSS thingy is gonna have a bright future in gaming industry 😀
Excellent video ! Rendering tech is fascinating, even if you're not into video games.
Now, think about how far we've gotten the past 3 years and imagine the next 10.
i like the exciting song 8.5 mins in, idk if ive heard it before
Thank you for the explanation. This has benefited me a lot
Great video, very well explained!
This is the best ad I've ever seen
What they've accomplished in Alan Wake 2 is incredible. RR there produces much more visually coherent image, to the point that I don't even feel like I'm using DLSS. In Cyberpunk it's not the case. However, I haven't tried the latest patch, maybe they've improved it.
"With RR on, you can now see those ants being perfectly rendered while it happens the opposite with RR off!"
naaaah.
This was useful for understanding the technology. Thank you.
4:57 what did he mean by that? How do you reduce it? Is it alongside setting the sharpness to 0 you render at a higher res? Am i correct?
And i didnt quite understand him, is that a drawback of RR? ray tracing? DLSS (upscaling part)? The game as a whole? I dont get it. Where does the "smoothed but sharpened" image come from? How can you get the ultimate image with no drawbacks?
I know this is a sponsored vid, but it would have been nice to learn more about RR. Since its the most confusing part of DLSS due to it being a black box.
I used the trick to get dlss 3.5 in cyberpunk without path tracing and it works very well, you get noise in dark shadows but for the increase visuals and performance i think its worth it do to
Ray reconstruction and frame generation is nice to have, but the main Nvidia advantage is still just the image quality of the upscaling itself. AMD really needs to match NV's upscaling quality asap, especially cause the consoles also rely on FSR.
EDIT 1: mess around with DLSS tweaker and adaptive PT for better results ;)
EDIT 2: I managed to reduce the noise by making the sharpness 0 and DLDSR smoothness 100 while using DLSS
I don't know how you didn't notice RR's biggest flaw which is oily streets (especially outside Dogtown) and noisy lighting on character models while using DLSS upscale no matter the quality of it, it's the biggest turn off for me because you spend most of the time talking to characters and driving/walking around. Best thing to do for me at least for now is using FSR 2 (since it's a post processor and doesn't ruin the quality of PT) + PT with no RR. Also maybe because I'm using DLDSR, it's not behaving well with RR, but I did notice it too on my native resolution (1080p).
Sadly RR isn't perfect for now, so pick your poison.
it's sponsored so he can't say bad things about RR . It's just a business
@@marosis99 Oooooh I didn't notice my bad lol.
Pathtracing is what NVIDIA should’ve pushed when the RTX 20 series first came out. Pathtracing is really a game changer, on my 4080 Cyberpunk and Alan Wake II look phenomenal. Thanks for the video, Phillip.
@@2kliksphilip It's insane to me that in 2 generations we've got from Path traced Quake 2, then Portal with RTX remix and now Cyberpunk, a full modern AAA title. Path tracing was really cool in Quake 2 and it was pretty clear that in a while this would be the main way of rendering games, I just didn't expect it to come so soon.
@@2kliksphilip in less than 6 years we went from pure rasterized games to fully path traced ones. NVIDIA is truly amazing.
Amazing
Thanks for the video 🤗
I used to hate on Nvidia's AI stuff more but I gotta say, I think they accurately predicted that raw horsepower increases would slow down and they needed to do something else to keep pushing the needle forward. Now that the tech has had a few years to cook, it's pretty damn impressive.
I'm extremely sensitive to artifacting and ghosting and I was blown away with how good framegen is. It's not perfect for the fps increase you get it's insane.
RR in CP2077 is messy atm. NPC's faces look like an oily mess from a far. Also, it pretty much intesifies the ghosting in motion.
Excellent video! Please do more.
aaaa nice ad for nvidia, i already wanted to buy a 4070 but now i was remembered of it.
I always thought ray tracing is a absolutely non-convincing novelty and it distracted me by how slow its saturation is and all the artifacts.. but that looks much better now.
I can't wait for a fully RT future. Whatever helps cut down 6 year dev cycles for games.
DLSS is less and less of a "crutch" and more and more of an added bonus
No, RTX3060 supports DLSS 3.5 but doesn’t have frame gen. So it’s incorrect to say that DLSS 3.5 means all features are included, since frame gen isn’t on a RTX3060
Man's gotta eat but it's trully sad that they got to o'l Phil... Also, DLSS 3.5 still feels like a beta, it completely deletes shadows in Alan Wake 2 to the point where half the fences don't project shadows.
conveniently left out the obvious unstable lighting on walls
i have visual snow and thats just how i see irl wtf .-.
I know it's technically wrong but I still prefer the old hard shadows and SSAO. Fully ray traced shadows look a bit flat.
Something I never understood is despite DLSS being an ai-powered frame generator, older RTX cards cant use new DLSS versions. Isnt it all the same generator, just upgraded? And if it's truly "free frames" that don't strain the GPU then why shouldn't someone be allowed to use DLSS 3.5 on their 2080 for example?
All RTX cards can you new DLSS versions they just can't use the frame gen part of it. The reason for that per nVidia is that the old cards lack the additional optical flow accelerators which are used to calculate where stuff is moving on screen. Old cards have these too but the newer ones have units of these accelerators dedicated only for frame gen. However you have to keep in mind that that is from nVidia and could be just PR talk to safe face.
@@roamn4979People have tried running Frame Generation on 30-series cards (since they have a Gen 1 OFA, but not the Gen 2 OFA that the 40-series cards use), and it's a complete mess. The optical flow acceleration on previous cards just isn't advanced enough. You really do need a 40-series card for Frame Generation to work.
this was definitely not a cyberpunk ad
It's just a developer version (and those don't go down). Essentially bad sematic versioning, since it should have been 3.1 or 3.2 given earlier library versions and that fact this was a "minor" update. It's essentially how software versioning has always worked.
i love when you make videos like this