It’s true, I was thinking that the entire time, I know it’s been a long time since I’ve played Bioshock, but I remember you sometimes get gifts and it’s a bunch of Adam. I never saw the point of harvesting the Sisters because of that.
@@somuchbttrdenu759 For the achievement, or because or the false perception that harvesting would give more. or because some people like playing evil child killers.
fun fact, you get the present as long as you "SAVE" the number of little sisters indicated in the menu while in game. after that number you can harvest away.
One thing not mentioned about Vampyr, there are points in the game where you have a choice of feeding or sparing key characters. Feeding will give you XP while sparing will actually cost you XP. So you’re not just missing out, you are actually losing hard earned XP. It makes it super painful to try not to feed.
And spoiler, just killing one person gives you different ending. I fed once during combat sequence, and just that affected the ending even if the boss would fed off of them.
It's almost the first thing the game tells you. What are you talking about? It says you can either have a ton of xp and be evil or you can have far less xp and be a vampire god.
A little tip or secret, if you play the game on version 1.00, unpatched vanilla, and offline, you can insert a USB keyboard into the console and go to the upgrade menu at the bed, and then press the letter 'P' on the keyboard and hold it down, you get an unlimited amount of XP; infinite even, so you can get the best ending and not drain anyone, and make your character OP from the start of the game. You're welcome.
Another thing about Vampyr is that some of the NPC's are so bad that they're just begging for you to drain them. Sometimes things will be better after they're gone, other times things get a lot worse. But if you do drain ANY of them, you can't get the best ending.😩
@@KainYusanagi medecine is about quantity over quality (socialism) OR quality in exchange for lots of money (capitalism) Ain"t no place for oaths in 2023, be happy they're punished if they really try to hurt you
Rdr2 rewards you more for being a good guy than any game I have played to the point that I refuse to play with low honor. The storytelling is just so powerful, well written, and moving. I have seen videos of the low honor path and it just makes me sad.
Agreed. I thought it was kinda funny that buddy in the video told us like 10x in a row that it rewards you for being good but is more fun being bad. 😆 I need to jump back in to RDR2, haven't played enough of it.
@@gregwright7603 Yeah, it honestly does. Arthur starts off as a bad man who robs and kills people because that's what Dutch taught him. As the story progresses, Arthur realizes Dutch ain't the man he thought he was and so starts doing good things instead.
Dishonered is another example where it's quite a slog to be the good guy and not cause too much chaos. Going around and cutting everyone to shreds was definitely more fun.
Not true. I recently replayed it and went as stealthy as possible, but when I got caught I slaughtered my way free. Never saving but for autosaves, never reloading because I screwed up, and I consistently maintained low chaos for just about every level. It was a really fun way to play.
I did a pacifist run my first go and really enjoyed feeling like a ninja, until one guard who looks through a keyhole kept catching me over and over (reloading). Finally I said fuck it, throttled him a the top of the stairs and chucked him into the basement. Being too good at your job is hazardous.
I tend to be a good mayor in city building games and so anything to grind as much in role playing and strategic games. As long as you're not outright cheating or doing pay2win You're doing it right I feel.
Yes!!! Thank you for including Tyranny. Nobody talks about this game, and it's so underrated. The relatively short playtime allows for multiple runs through the game, and each time you do, you can totally change the setup and even which areas are accessible. An excellent "shorter" CRPG (~30 hours) with fantastic writing and characters in a universe that rivals Fallout 1 and 2 for how bleak everything is
100% in agreement, Tyranny is so goddamn underrated. One of the best CRPGs that isn't related to D&D or Pathfinder. (Tyranny, Pillars of Eternity, or Divinity: Original Sin)
Agree, Tyranny is an amazing game. My last playthrough was a full rebel playthrough - how many games let you completely flip the script and just change sides as a fully legitimate path? I'm just bummed that so much content was cut, and that we'll never see a sequel - I really wish they'd fleshed out Sirin some more, she's one of my fav characters. You may know this already, but funny you should mention F1 & 2 - many of the team at Obsidian are originally from Black Isle Studios, the original Fallout devs. They also did Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines as Troika. I'm kinda surprised that neither of those are mentioned here, as both also have their own ways for punishing you for being good.
@@WolfGuardian495 I can do damage but just not enough. I tried to grind any XP I could get before the fight and it seems like it's just not enough. I can get a good deal of the way into the fight and then the boss just snaps off on me. Can't go back either because the save point is at the fight lol
@@BBR-rd7iy it’s a bummer when devs don’t take things like that into consideration and you’re basically soft locked. It happened to me once in one of the original Resident Evil games. Use to happen quite a bit back in the day actually. Don’t see that much anymore
I get what you say about inFamous but I genuinely felt that in both 1 and 2 the good karma powers look and feel cooler. The evil upgrades just felt like number increases (more damage, more clusters, more rockets). The power to redirect rockets always felt awesome, and watching an enemy panic when you land a sticky grenade on their foot before getting chained to the floor never got old.
How’d you feel about it in SS? I feel SS rewards it but differently. Allowing you to quickly subdue enemies and even healing you (if you have the upgrade) is cool. As well as being able to instantly knock an enemy out by a headshot is cool.
@@kaimagnus5760I’d also say Second Son encourages good karma play through as well. I’m assuming you mean gameplay wise but even then having stuff like karmic healing makes a good karma play through just as fun to play as evil
@@JPmoney99 Oh absolutely. But by comparison the gameplay balance for the first two games heavily favors the utility of the good karma powers over the evil karma powers. Whereas Second Son is Balanced enough to pick either without feeling like you screwed yourself.
Let's not forget the old "headshots restore a little charge" thing from good karma that had the side effect of making it basically impossible to die as long as you had good aim and good karma
Black & White 1 and 2 are fantastic to discuss morality decisions. IIRC, one of the first games to actually implement the good vs evil mechanic along with Fable. Some great things can be had from going evil (specifically with your Beast), but the good route is also pretty fantastic
Great to see many games of the genres that are not mentioned on gameranx so much (like Frosunk or This war of mine for instance). Please, do more stuff like that.
I love Frostpunk and This War of Mine, glad when they get more recognition. I usually love any media that is in a morally grey area. Games are a work of art, and art should sometimes be thought provoking, simultaneously emotionally draining and captivating, they should challenge your views and help you gain perspective. Great vid as always Gameranx!
on the side of thought provoking, i have used Frostpunk and This War of Mine as arguments in discussions about morality of choice and the true effects of war. my basis was that, sufficiently backed into a corner, one would do almost anything for survival. these two games helped me flesh out my arguments and actually change the worldviews of a few people. sobered them up, so to speak.
I’ve played RDR2 front to back over 3 times now and I can never get myself to be dishonorable. I just have too much empathy for people even when they’re not real, lol. Plus the story does have the word redemption in it and falls a little flat if you play the bad guy all the way through
While I do agree there are some examples in the Mass Effect series wherein choosing the paragon option leads to a bad result, majority of the bad stuff is contained in the renegade options. Squad members dying and stuff rarely happens on the paragon side.
I just feel way too bad picking bad guy options 😭 if a scripted event happens where it makes the MC say or do something mean I'm like "NONO I WOULD NOT DO THAT" it's a very emotional experience lmao
My favorite was fable 4. I robbed the kingdoms coffers and bought a bunch of real estate thinking I could use the proceeds to fund saving the kingdom... Until there was a 900 day time skip that gave me no rent...
I grinded gold in Fable 3 right at the beginning of the game until I could buy the Brightwall Pawn Shop. One thing led to another and I had bought the entire kingdom out from under King Logan long before the civil war ever started lol Had more than enough money to finance the defense force AND keep all my promises while making the good guy choices. Though the "Why do you own my house your majesty" did get kind of old after a while. Lol
I really like this topic in general. Doing the right thing can often have negative consequences, but I consider it more important that you TRY to do good.
This War of Mine is based on the wars in the Balkans in the 90s. And having experienced them for real that game is so close to my heart when it comes to raising the awareness about surviving in a war zone. Also originally it is a boardgame that was adapted to PC and I find the boardgame to be even better
Pathologic was hilarious - in the end I just started stabbing everyone because it devolved into a survival of the fittest mess four days in and I was too busy trying to find food to care what happened to anybody else.
Another thing about inFamous, the first one. So, me and my brother both played it, I took the good guy route, my brother took the bad guy route. Second to last mission, when you have to decide whether to use or destroy the bomb thing that I forgot the name of. The end result is usually the same, it gets destroyed, the guy gets sucked in, and you get a mass of negative karma. If you're going the villain route, you unlock this awesome visual upgrade that turns your lightning black with red outlines when you max out the negative karma. However, I'm not sure there is a way to max out positive karma simply because of that second to last mission giving you negative karma when you make the morally right choice. So it just feels like you get shortchanged just before the final fight if you're trying to be a hero. I honestly don't even know what the lightning powers look like if you can somehow manage to max out the positive karma.
Vampyr was a fantastic journey. I recall being thrilled by it and really enjoyed myself. Even the grind from trying to be good, got fun in the end. Great game. Grab it second hand or on offer, you'll not regret it.
The Outer Worlds is another example. Oh and finally some love for Tyranny! I think that game somehow passed loads of people by and that's a shame. It uses the Pillars of Eternity engine.
Fable 3 is a good one for this type of list I think. if you’re good and help everyone on your way through the game, you have less money, resources and help for the final battle. It took some grind and patience to be really good and also build up a good defence! Great game for me!
There's also a way to get around the money aspect before taking on the Crawler. The calendar only advances when you're in the throne room. Ignore it. Don't go to the throne room unless you have to, do all the side quests- the jewel in the Desert is a ton of gold, the Sunset House dragon door is a million, and so on. I've walked into the final battle with 100% good for the choices throughout the game, and enough gold to raise the full army.
@@aidenbrooks6345 Don't even need to raise the rent on all, just raise the prices of luxuries by about 20%, e.g. clothes, gems and lower the prices on housing and food just a small amount and you'll be rolling in money fast, plus the population will adore you
oh gameranx, love the added BGM music that plays for each mentioned game in the list. it adds atmosphere and helps grasp the situations described, notably the segment of Frost Punk, Papers Please, This War of Mine, and Tyranny.
I remember watching gameranx as a kid, and being so god damn addicted to it. Now I'm back. Theres something about these videos where I cant' stop watching. Each video instantly grasps my interest
I just wanted to add some context to bioshock: yes your character is a sleeper agent that is being controlled but its not that way with the little sisters. Every quest that you are on, to a certain point, is always given with the trigger phrase "Would you kindly". That phrase is never spoken when the choice of what to do with the little sisters is brought up. So if you choose to save or harvest all of them, that is solely on the player, not Fontaine or the game.
I think a very important thing to consider when it comes to moral choices is that morality is not about outcomes. Morality is social intelligence, specifically as it pertains to the well-being of the collective, and that ultimately just boils down to making the best choice, given what you know and with only reasonable restrictions per due diligence. It is impossible to judge people based solely on the outcome of their decisions. We're not machines, and we're not fortune tellers. A lot of the time there is no way to know what will happen, and you just have to come to terms with that and still make the choice when it presents itself, all the same. It's also why we don't punish people who, through ignorance of some wider context that becomes apparent later, makes a choice with good intentions that causes more harm than good. If you were acting on bad information with the genuine intent to do good, you can only be held so accountable for the consequences. Otherwise, it would be impossible to make any choice, in fear for that one missing piece of context that might make all the difference. Sometimes you just have to call it and weather the outcomes as best as possible. So when judging moral choices in video games, it's very important that the morally "good" option doesn't always lead to the optimal solution, because that ultimately undermines the principle of the entire exercise. The reality is that we are not perfect, and we will never have sufficient information to make the perfect choice about anything. Morality is not about keeping score, it is doing the very best you can, given the immediate circumstances, all the while knowing that it's often not good enough -- and doing it anyway.
One that came to mind was Marvel Ultimate Alliance. It gives you a lot of choices throughout the game that you don’t think about at the time, but at the end it shows an epilogue of the consequences of all you actions. I remember replaying the game over and over to try and get the “best” ending, but you can’t truly do everything right. There is always somebody you can’t save.
For mass effect I think mentioning the scientist Rana Thanoptis in ME1 was the best example. If you let her escape the lab on Virmire instead of going murder hobo on her she goes nuts and assassinates some important asari ambassadors in the third game.
Mass Effect the entire series ais a bit more important to consider, really. Choosing the Good Guy role in one game can screw you in the final fight in the last game where you have to raise your readiness and choosing the Bad Guy role will get your readiness higher. Sometimes the opposite is true.
I think this problem was much more prominent in the original trilogy than in the remastered version. If I recall correctly it wasn't even possible for a paragon run in the original trilogy to get to max readieness lvl unless you participate in online multiplayer.
Really been meaning to dive back into Vampyre, I played through it at release and haven’t really touched it since. Pretty sure frostpunk is one of my 10 most played games on steam as well
I definitely always enjoyed playing as the villain more in the infamous games... powers & skills were just stronger most of the time. But i definitely felt bad taking out any innocent bystanders haha
Some of the best ones are the ones that challenge how far your morality will last against acting for the sake of survival like Frostpunk and This War of Mine
2 games from 11 Bit Studios on one list? Sweet! Both are so worth playing despite being relatively hard. These are some of ex CD Projekt people at work there. Thanks Gameranx
@@thestone8187 yeah I think it adapts to your gameplay in a way. You're basically a civilian trying to survive during war, crafting stuff, gathering/stealing resources. Some of your players get killed, some fatigued from staying watching so you don't get robbed at night while others can get injuries from going out for resources so you gotta let them rest when you have no one capable. When moral is low some might leave or even steal your stuff. The effects of war get to them while they just trying to survive.
I LOVE how the music swells in that game as the storm approaches. Great sound design! By the time that first blizzard rolls in you feel like the world is ending.
5:10 in Fable it was so much easier to be the good guy. You actually had to go out of your way to farm bad karma points. I eventually just got tired of trying to farm bad karma. Which is very much in contrast to how it works AFK. You can destroy a house within a day or hours, it takes way longer to build one.
One cool thing to mention about Vampyr is that if you go for a no blood run, or even close to, the final boss becomes much easier. That whole mechanic is the best thing the game has for it, for me. Thanks for your videos!
Love that you mentioned infamous in this one. I've been saying for years that "good guy" play through in that series is hard mode, "bad guy" is easy mode. Don't get me wrong, both ways are fun, but I always would do 2 plays, and good was first so 2nd would be more chaotic fun. Dishonored is similar IMO
I'm a huge gamer and have watched hundreds of these videos, but can't believe there's still games I've never heard of! Frostpunk and tyranny particularly
All Dontnod games are amazing but Vampyr is amazing gem because it really felt like a game where your choices matter and are unpredictable,like in real life
Until Dawn has the moment where if you try to save someone, you get trapped yourself and killed by monsters, but if you don’t try to save her, you both live but she gets pissed. I can’t remember character names but that certainly seems like you’re punished for doing the right thing.
This war of mine: the little ones, is an absolutely amazing game! I replay it every now and then, and every single time, it challenges me with heavy ass decisions and consequences. Top tier game all the way imo
In OG bioshock someone did the numbers and you don't get that much more for harvesting the sister in the end. Not only the diminishing return, but Tenenbaum give you gifts and Adams in return made it so that being the bad guy isn't that good (3520 vs 3840 adams)
What is right? Saving the one's you love at the cost of others losing the ones they love? Going on a revenge quest, knowing you hurting everyone isn't going to bring those you love back? Love this series, I believe Joel was right and wrong, I can't say I wouldn't have done the same as him even knowing what happens in part two.
I saved Kelly Chambers in ME2, but she never showed up in 3 (and I did look for her!) I always go 90% Paragon, even though I know I miss out on some good Jennifer Hale Renegade voice acting. I’ve reloaded an hours old save when I accidentally said something mean to my crew. (Or accidentally flirted with Kaiden.)
Thanks for pointing out Tyranny- it was a criminally overlooked game with an *incredible* backstory and world, and it’s a gigantic shame that we won’t likely ever see a sequel.
I almost always do the bad guy route for games with these kinds of metrics first because I just think it's funnier and second because growing up my older brother would do the good guy route and I would do the bad and we'd both get a viewpoint of the other. HOWEVER, RDR2 is one of the only games where it is actually significantly better if you choose the good guy route. It not only makes the story make more sense but the tax collection plotting is imo crucial to the story in a way that it feels wrong if you do the bad guy route.
I've always enjoyed videogames where the player's choices have actual impacts on the story & main characters. The Infamous franchise, Detroit Become Human, Beyond Two Souls, & Dying Light 2 are all videogames on PlayStation I've enjoyed because of this aspect.
This is one of the best subjects. In real life i have no problem with choices. But in games.. holy moly i have a hard time. I am playing Witcher 3 at the moment. And it feels lige i am walking on egg shells, when something happens. Half the time playing, half the time searching for consequences. 😅
A little tip or secret, if you play the game on version 1.00, unpatched vanilla, and offline, you can insert a USB keyboard into the console and go to the upgrade menu at the bed, and then press the letter 'P' on the keyboard and hold it down, you get an unlimited amount of XP; infinite even, so you can get the best ending and not drain anyone, and make your character OP from the start of the game. You're welcome.
Bioshock “pretended” to punish you for being good. However you received bonus gifts if you rescue enough little sisters which made it basically 50/50 between good and evil.
Personally see it as a good thing that such an occurrence can take place in a game, it shows that one is ready to stick to their morals no matter what happens, even if it makes things more difficult. Wish more games would actually embrace such a model, but I can understand why it's usually a watered down version a la Bioshock or Vampyr.
I can’t even role play as a bad guy as I don’t find it fun even to pretend to be selfish and evil. Tried it with Hogwart’s Legacy but enjoyed the good guy route far more.
This was an awesome list! One game i find pretty underrated when it comes to morality is ThronebreakerThe Witcher Tales, there are some tough decisions in that
Concerning bioshock, saving all the little sisters didn’t punish the player anywhere near enough. Having played through that game probably half a dozen times, saving every little sister still gives you more than enough Adam thanks to the gifts left at the machines after every third little sister saved. The only time I harvested little sisters was for achievements
I always play Arthur picking good options _and_ shooting anyone who annoys me. My Arthur's complicated like that. And I'd say Dishonored is the best example of a game that punishes you for being bad, yet playing the game bad is so much more fun.
Fun fact, I played frost punk exactly once. My first attempt everyone died in about an hour of playtime, everything was going fine then all of a sudden I was being overthrown by angry citizens. I then spent the next about 9 hours powering through the games story mode and once completed, although just barely, I proceeded to never touch it ever again lol.
Regarding inFamous, the evil karma powers DO look better/are cooler, but the good karma is more rewarding. The civilians help you by out fighting your enemies and in some cases, do better than us. They can stun lock enemies by throwing rocks, and with the pulse heal in 2, collateral damage is mitigated if not outright negated by the good karma you can get from healing them.
Playing infamous second son, I maxed out both ends of the morality in one playthrough, Took a bit of grind but once you unlock the skills they don't cut off if you flip your morality, it was cool
This made me think of an older game, Sacrifice. You get to help different gods and for doing so you gain power. Many of the more morally "right" options aren't nearly as powerful. It's a game I really wish they had done more with and made a sequel of.
Yeah, my first playthrough of Infamous: Second Son was all good guy and it was a great game. But I played back through for the platinum doing an evil run and it was freaking awesome!
I only like playing a good guy as Delsin. One shot captures were beautiful and it handled better. Being a good guy as Cole was tedious af. And maxing out your evil Karma is a no brained quick city wide rampage.
I feel like Wasteland 2, and especially in wasteland 3, it can be difficult to know, what is the right thing? With each choice having consequences for any action you do, even if it is the "right thing". That's my two cents.
The forest A really good survival game that ends with a moral choice. If you choose the good guy solution you end up with the peaceful and then with no credits, basically not much of an ending but if you choose to take the bad choice you get a full little video, that ends up informing you that you made the wrong choice in the end and then you get credits
I was astonished when I first played Frostpunk but as I started to play it through, it became a headache to manage the whole city, make harsh decisions to control the surviving population and now I am seeing that it was all intentional from the developers 😮
Frostpunk.. Oh man, I remember becoming a tyrant in my first playthrough because I chose survival and productivity over anything else but in the end, people revolted and I got steamed.
Disagree about Infamous. I often found that the "evil" powers only had an impact on certain types of combat while "good" powers affected traversal and strategic combat encounters. You wouldn't get the most powerful combat ability as a "good" character but you'd end up more effective at combat in general.
The Bioshock games actually punish you for being bad and you get less power. You kinda touched on this, but yeah if you save them you get those gifts that give a big bonus of Adam that makes up for the difference for the most part, but you are also given extra plasmids you wouldn't have acquired otherwise.
I always heard in Bioshock, the gifts you get from rescuing the little sisters end up getting you more Adam in the end than if you harvest them.
It’s true, I was thinking that the entire time, I know it’s been a long time since I’ve played Bioshock, but I remember you sometimes get gifts and it’s a bunch of Adam. I never saw the point of harvesting the Sisters because of that.
@@somuchbttrdenu759 For the achievement, or because or the false perception that harvesting would give more. or because some people like playing evil child killers.
fun fact, you get the present as long as you "SAVE" the number of little sisters indicated in the menu while in game. after that number you can harvest away.
That’s true. It always ended up being better to save the Little Sisters. You always end up getting more ADAM by doing so.
@@freki42 I might be misremembering, but can't you get multiple gifts each 3 or something?
One thing not mentioned about Vampyr, there are points in the game where you have a choice of feeding or sparing key characters. Feeding will give you XP while sparing will actually cost you XP. So you’re not just missing out, you are actually losing hard earned XP. It makes it super painful to try not to feed.
And spoiler, just killing one person gives you different ending. I fed once during combat sequence, and just that affected the ending even if the boss would fed off of them.
It's almost the first thing the game tells you. What are you talking about? It says you can either have a ton of xp and be evil or you can have far less xp and be a vampire god.
So it’s like challenge run?
@@WolfySnowy You can feed during combat and still get the best ending, so you had to have done something else wrong.
A little tip or secret, if you play the game on version 1.00, unpatched vanilla, and offline, you can insert a USB keyboard into the console and go to the upgrade menu at the bed, and then press the letter 'P' on the keyboard and hold it down, you get an unlimited amount of XP; infinite even, so you can get the best ending and not drain anyone, and make your character OP from the start of the game. You're welcome.
Another thing about Vampyr is that some of the NPC's are so bad that they're just begging for you to drain them. Sometimes things will be better after they're gone, other times things get a lot worse. But if you do drain ANY of them, you can't get the best ending.😩
Y'know what they say, a good doctor doesn't care if you good or bad and treats you regardless.
@@cutcutado It's sad that they've abandoned the Hippocratic Oath these days.
@@KainYusanagi medecine is about quantity over quality (socialism) OR quality in exchange for lots of money (capitalism)
Ain"t no place for oaths in 2023, be happy they're punished if they really try to hurt you
For real, NOT killing the phycho serial killer that mutilate women is the RIGHT THINGS?! wtf?!
It's literally the hippocratic oath "do no harm" but if you follow a specific path you can actually drain them all
Rdr2 rewards you more for being a good guy than any game I have played to the point that I refuse to play with low honor. The storytelling is just so powerful, well written, and moving. I have seen videos of the low honor path and it just makes me sad.
Agreed. I thought it was kinda funny that buddy in the video told us like 10x in a row that it rewards you for being good but is more fun being bad. 😆 I need to jump back in to RDR2, haven't played enough of it.
I started with really low honor then slowly got to high honor by the end which makes most sense to me regarding the story
@@gregwright7603 Yeah, it honestly does. Arthur starts off as a bad man who robs and kills people because that's what Dutch taught him. As the story progresses, Arthur realizes Dutch ain't the man he thought he was and so starts doing good things instead.
That's fair. I tried being nice, the npc will go out of their way to fight you on Hard modes
Dishonered is another example where it's quite a slog to be the good guy and not cause too much chaos. Going around and cutting everyone to shreds was definitely more fun.
I always get that itch…it’s very hard to ignore
Ahh, yes, Dishonored. The game where you're trying to prove you aren't a killer, by killing absolutely everyone.
I genuinely tried to be nonlethal my first playthrough, up until my third time getting caught and not having any nonlethal combat options.
Not true. I recently replayed it and went as stealthy as possible, but when I got caught I slaughtered my way free. Never saving but for autosaves, never reloading because I screwed up, and I consistently maintained low chaos for just about every level. It was a really fun way to play.
I did a pacifist run my first go and really enjoyed feeling like a ninja, until one guard who looks through a keyhole kept catching me over and over (reloading). Finally I said fuck it, throttled him a the top of the stairs and chucked him into the basement. Being too good at your job is hazardous.
Yes, playing a bad guy might be more fun but playing a good guy usually ends up being more rewarding. In my opinion at least.
I tend to be a good mayor in city building games and so anything to grind as much in role playing and strategic games. As long as you're not outright cheating or doing pay2win You're doing it right I feel.
Agreed. That’s why Arthur had a bird on his grave, and not a coyote
I agree
Now this the comment I was looking for
Realistic games should have playing the bad guy be more rewarding.
Yes!!! Thank you for including Tyranny. Nobody talks about this game, and it's so underrated. The relatively short playtime allows for multiple runs through the game, and each time you do, you can totally change the setup and even which areas are accessible. An excellent "shorter" CRPG (~30 hours) with fantastic writing and characters in a universe that rivals Fallout 1 and 2 for how bleak everything is
100% in agreement, Tyranny is so goddamn underrated. One of the best CRPGs that isn't related to D&D or Pathfinder. (Tyranny, Pillars of Eternity, or Divinity: Original Sin)
Agree, Tyranny is an amazing game. My last playthrough was a full rebel playthrough - how many games let you completely flip the script and just change sides as a fully legitimate path? I'm just bummed that so much content was cut, and that we'll never see a sequel - I really wish they'd fleshed out Sirin some more, she's one of my fav characters.
You may know this already, but funny you should mention F1 & 2 - many of the team at Obsidian are originally from Black Isle Studios, the original Fallout devs. They also did Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines as Troika. I'm kinda surprised that neither of those are mentioned here, as both also have their own ways for punishing you for being good.
100% agreed here too. Excellent game and lots of fun to play/make decisions.
I took the good guy route in Vampyre. I've been stuck at the final boss for like a year now because of it.
Really? I took the good route and the last boss fight wasn't to hard.
@@WolfGuardian495 I can do damage but just not enough. I tried to grind any XP I could get before the fight and it seems like it's just not enough. I can get a good deal of the way into the fight and then the boss just snaps off on me. Can't go back either because the save point is at the fight lol
@@BBR-rd7iy it’s a bummer when devs don’t take things like that into consideration and you’re basically soft locked. It happened to me once in one of the original Resident Evil games. Use to happen quite a bit back in the day actually. Don’t see that much anymore
Get a save wizard 🧙♂️
@@drgonzo123 I'm going to guess, Code Veronica? Trapped on a plane fighting an almost unkillable tyrant with next to no ammo?
I get what you say about inFamous but I genuinely felt that in both 1 and 2 the good karma powers look and feel cooler. The evil upgrades just felt like number increases (more damage, more clusters, more rockets). The power to redirect rockets always felt awesome, and watching an enemy panic when you land a sticky grenade on their foot before getting chained to the floor never got old.
InFamous Second Son is legit the only InFamous game that rewards evil gameplay. InFamous 1and 2 actively encourages Good Karma playthroughs.
How’d you feel about it in SS? I feel SS rewards it but differently. Allowing you to quickly subdue enemies and even healing you (if you have the upgrade) is cool. As well as being able to instantly knock an enemy out by a headshot is cool.
@@kaimagnus5760I’d also say Second Son encourages good karma play through as well. I’m assuming you mean gameplay wise but even then having stuff like karmic healing makes a good karma play through just as fun to play as evil
@@JPmoney99 Oh absolutely. But by comparison the gameplay balance for the first two games heavily favors the utility of the good karma powers over the evil karma powers. Whereas Second Son is Balanced enough to pick either without feeling like you screwed yourself.
Let's not forget the old "headshots restore a little charge" thing from good karma that had the side effect of making it basically impossible to die as long as you had good aim and good karma
Vampyr was so very underrated more people should check it out really
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yeah,in summer the game would celebrate 5th anniversary
its so underrated it came form the devs of Life is Strange, Vampyr for me prove how flexible they were.
It was buggy AF that's why
One of my favorite Yahtzee reviews is as of Vampyr
Black & White 1 and 2 are fantastic to discuss morality decisions. IIRC, one of the first games to actually implement the good vs evil mechanic along with Fable. Some great things can be had from going evil (specifically with your Beast), but the good route is also pretty fantastic
I remember playing B&W2 as a kid and i remember having so much fun killing my own city lmao but also going the good route too
I want an open world vampire game that has mechanics similar to Vampyr and Infamous 2 when Cole becomes a vampire.
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Yes
A more in depth Vampire the Masquerade?
Festival of Blood is close
@@rasheedhawkins3372 that was such a brilliant game
Hey jake. THANKS FOR EVERYTHING YOU GUYS DO. I LOVE YOUR VIDEOS!
Hi
The Family Matters quest from Witcher 3 ought to be on this list.
The way that quest plays out completely devastated me.
Really, there are a few quests from that game where the "good" choice has a bad outcome.
Its a rare condition 🎶
@@ResidentOfEvil81this day and age
Great to see many games of the genres that are not mentioned on gameranx so much (like Frosunk or This war of mine for instance). Please, do more stuff like that.
I love Frostpunk and This War of Mine, glad when they get more recognition. I usually love any media that is in a morally grey area. Games are a work of art, and art should sometimes be thought provoking, simultaneously emotionally draining and captivating, they should challenge your views and help you gain perspective. Great vid as always Gameranx!
on the side of thought provoking, i have used Frostpunk and This War of Mine as arguments in discussions about morality of choice and the true effects of war. my basis was that, sufficiently backed into a corner, one would do almost anything for survival. these two games helped me flesh out my arguments and actually change the worldviews of a few people. sobered them up, so to speak.
I’ve played RDR2 front to back over 3 times now and I can never get myself to be dishonorable. I just have too much empathy for people even when they’re not real, lol. Plus the story does have the word redemption in it and falls a little flat if you play the bad guy all the way through
I’ve tried bad guy, I can never last more than a short time before I’m booting up a save. 😄
At least you're given the freedom
You can regain honor
While I do agree there are some examples in the Mass Effect series wherein choosing the paragon option leads to a bad result, majority of the bad stuff is contained in the renegade options. Squad members dying and stuff rarely happens on the paragon side.
I just feel way too bad picking bad guy options 😭 if a scripted event happens where it makes the MC say or do something mean I'm like "NONO I WOULD NOT DO THAT" it's a very emotional experience lmao
My favorite was fable 4. I robbed the kingdoms coffers and bought a bunch of real estate thinking I could use the proceeds to fund saving the kingdom... Until there was a 900 day time skip that gave me no rent...
I grinded gold in Fable 3 right at the beginning of the game until I could buy the Brightwall Pawn Shop. One thing led to another and I had bought the entire kingdom out from under King Logan long before the civil war ever started lol
Had more than enough money to finance the defense force AND keep all my promises while making the good guy choices. Though the "Why do you own my house your majesty" did get kind of old after a while. Lol
you from the future or something? Fable 4 doesn’t exist. Glad to hear it’s favorite worthy tho I’ve been waiting lol
The time skip doesn't happen unless you actively go into it and it warns you, too...
@@grimey666 nice! At least we know some of the plot now.
Fable 4 huh
I really like this topic in general. Doing the right thing can often have negative consequences, but I consider it more important that you TRY to do good.
Bioshock was one of the best games
one of the games that redefined general media perception toward gaming.
This War of Mine is based on the wars in the Balkans in the 90s. And having experienced them for real that game is so close to my heart when it comes to raising the awareness about surviving in a war zone.
Also originally it is a boardgame that was adapted to PC and I find the boardgame to be even better
Playing Arthur as a good guy gives you a far more satisfying ending. It brings him the redemption in the title, even if he is damned from the start.
I like the fact you can hear him stutter when he says the word "sister" where he talks about Bioshock
Pathologic was hilarious - in the end I just started stabbing everyone because it devolved into a survival of the fittest mess four days in and I was too busy trying to find food to care what happened to anybody else.
Another thing about inFamous, the first one. So, me and my brother both played it, I took the good guy route, my brother took the bad guy route. Second to last mission, when you have to decide whether to use or destroy the bomb thing that I forgot the name of. The end result is usually the same, it gets destroyed, the guy gets sucked in, and you get a mass of negative karma. If you're going the villain route, you unlock this awesome visual upgrade that turns your lightning black with red outlines when you max out the negative karma. However, I'm not sure there is a way to max out positive karma simply because of that second to last mission giving you negative karma when you make the morally right choice. So it just feels like you get shortchanged just before the final fight if you're trying to be a hero. I honestly don't even know what the lightning powers look like if you can somehow manage to max out the positive karma.
Vampyr was a fantastic journey. I recall being thrilled by it and really enjoyed myself. Even the grind from trying to be good, got fun in the end. Great game. Grab it second hand or on offer, you'll not regret it.
The Outer Worlds is another example.
Oh and finally some love for Tyranny! I think that game somehow passed loads of people by and that's a shame. It uses the Pillars of Eternity engine.
Outerworlds does it really well in a few missions. You think you're choosing the best option to help the most people and it turns out nope you didn't.
Fable 3 is a good one for this type of list I think. if you’re good and help everyone on your way through the game, you have less money, resources and help for the final battle. It took some grind and patience to be really good and also build up a good defence! Great game for me!
There's also a way to get around the money aspect before taking on the Crawler. The calendar only advances when you're in the throne room. Ignore it. Don't go to the throne room unless you have to, do all the side quests- the jewel in the Desert is a ton of gold, the Sunset House dragon door is a million, and so on. I've walked into the final battle with 100% good for the choices throughout the game, and enough gold to raise the full army.
@@caseydarrah you can also just buy all the property in the game raise the taxes to the highest point then dropping them when you have enough money
@@aidenbrooks6345 Don't even need to raise the rent on all, just raise the prices of luxuries by about 20%, e.g. clothes, gems and lower the prices on housing and food just a small amount and you'll be rolling in money fast, plus the population will adore you
Nahhh the bioshock one is clear as crystal. Saving the little sisters does not punish you enough to even consider getting a bad ending
good ending is better, by far. second time i cried because of a game.
oh gameranx, love the added BGM music that plays for each mentioned game in the list. it adds atmosphere and helps grasp the situations described, notably the segment of Frost Punk, Papers Please, This War of Mine, and Tyranny.
+1 Gamer Approval
I remember watching gameranx as a kid, and being so god damn addicted to it. Now I'm back. Theres something about these videos where I cant' stop watching. Each video instantly grasps my interest
I know about the _Infamous_ series primarily because of the puppet character Delsin Rodent. 🙃
Nice to see Tyranny getting a shoutout. It's an amazing game with some really tough decisions
I just wanted to add some context to bioshock: yes your character is a sleeper agent that is being controlled but its not that way with the little sisters. Every quest that you are on, to a certain point, is always given with the trigger phrase "Would you kindly". That phrase is never spoken when the choice of what to do with the little sisters is brought up. So if you choose to save or harvest all of them, that is solely on the player, not Fontaine or the game.
True, plus you break free eventually - so I disagree with the idea that the player has zero agency.
I think a very important thing to consider when it comes to moral choices is that morality is not about outcomes. Morality is social intelligence, specifically as it pertains to the well-being of the collective, and that ultimately just boils down to making the best choice, given what you know and with only reasonable restrictions per due diligence. It is impossible to judge people based solely on the outcome of their decisions. We're not machines, and we're not fortune tellers. A lot of the time there is no way to know what will happen, and you just have to come to terms with that and still make the choice when it presents itself, all the same. It's also why we don't punish people who, through ignorance of some wider context that becomes apparent later, makes a choice with good intentions that causes more harm than good. If you were acting on bad information with the genuine intent to do good, you can only be held so accountable for the consequences. Otherwise, it would be impossible to make any choice, in fear for that one missing piece of context that might make all the difference. Sometimes you just have to call it and weather the outcomes as best as possible. So when judging moral choices in video games, it's very important that the morally "good" option doesn't always lead to the optimal solution, because that ultimately undermines the principle of the entire exercise. The reality is that we are not perfect, and we will never have sufficient information to make the perfect choice about anything. Morality is not about keeping score, it is doing the very best you can, given the immediate circumstances, all the while knowing that it's often not good enough -- and doing it anyway.
One that came to mind was Marvel Ultimate Alliance. It gives you a lot of choices throughout the game that you don’t think about at the time, but at the end it shows an epilogue of the consequences of all you actions. I remember replaying the game over and over to try and get the “best” ending, but you can’t truly do everything right. There is always somebody you can’t save.
I actually loved those endings but still get a bad future if you save Jean Grey or Nightcrawler
For mass effect I think mentioning the scientist Rana Thanoptis in ME1 was the best example. If you let her escape the lab on Virmire instead of going murder hobo on her she goes nuts and assassinates some important asari ambassadors in the third game.
Mass Effect the entire series ais a bit more important to consider, really. Choosing the Good Guy role in one game can screw you in the final fight in the last game where you have to raise your readiness and choosing the Bad Guy role will get your readiness higher. Sometimes the opposite is true.
I think this problem was much more prominent in the original trilogy than in the remastered version. If I recall correctly it wasn't even possible for a paragon run in the original trilogy to get to max readieness lvl unless you participate in online multiplayer.
Really been meaning to dive back into Vampyre, I played through it at release and haven’t really touched it since. Pretty sure frostpunk is one of my 10 most played games on steam as well
I definitely always enjoyed playing as the villain more in the infamous games... powers & skills were just stronger most of the time. But i definitely felt bad taking out any innocent bystanders haha
Some of the best ones are the ones that challenge how far your morality will last against acting for the sake of survival like Frostpunk and This War of Mine
I got the bioshock source for harder gameplay by saving the sisters, you can like it right here: trust me bro
You get less ADAM but you still get enough to blow through the game no prob
2 games from 11 Bit Studios on one list? Sweet! Both are so worth playing despite being relatively hard. These are some of ex CD Projekt people at work there. Thanks Gameranx
This War of Mine was really something tbh... took a toll when I saw my character commiting suicide from all that was happening...
Is that what happens in the story or is there tons of outcomes?
@@thestone8187 yeah I think it adapts to your gameplay in a way. You're basically a civilian trying to survive during war, crafting stuff, gathering/stealing resources. Some of your players get killed, some fatigued from staying watching so you don't get robbed at night while others can get injuries from going out for resources so you gotta let them rest when you have no one capable. When moral is low some might leave or even steal your stuff. The effects of war get to them while they just trying to survive.
The first time I played frostpunk was during lockdown, and I stayed up until 7 am playing it. What a game. I cant wait for the sequel.
I LOVE how the music swells in that game as the storm approaches. Great sound design! By the time that first blizzard rolls in you feel like the world is ending.
5:10 in Fable it was so much easier to be the good guy. You actually had to go out of your way to farm bad karma points. I eventually just got tired of trying to farm bad karma.
Which is very much in contrast to how it works AFK. You can destroy a house within a day or hours, it takes way longer to build one.
One cool thing to mention about Vampyr
is that if you go for a no blood run, or even close to,
the final boss becomes much easier.
That whole mechanic is the best thing the game has for it, for me.
Thanks for your videos!
No problem enacting child labor in Frostpunk. I didn't force any of my denizens to bang after an apocalyptic ice storm. Thats on them.
Vampyr was so fun. If the combat got a bit more tuning, it could have been a 10/10. For what its worth though I still loved it and recommend it.
Love that you mentioned infamous in this one. I've been saying for years that "good guy" play through in that series is hard mode, "bad guy" is easy mode. Don't get me wrong, both ways are fun, but I always would do 2 plays, and good was first so 2nd would be more chaotic fun. Dishonored is similar IMO
Frostpunk is genuinely difficult, but I’m also just terrible at it. I felt so bad for my city the entire time I tried to play lol
I'm a huge gamer and have watched hundreds of these videos, but can't believe there's still games I've never heard of! Frostpunk and tyranny particularly
Awesome channel !
New subscriber 😊 here and been watching it everyday, the host really know what his talking about, I love that.
All Dontnod games are amazing but Vampyr is amazing gem because it really felt like a game where your choices matter and are unpredictable,like in real life
If KotOR II isn’t on this list I will riot
Edit: I will riot
Until Dawn has the moment where if you try to save someone, you get trapped yourself and killed by monsters, but if you don’t try to save her, you both live but she gets pissed. I can’t remember character names but that certainly seems like you’re punished for doing the right thing.
This is a really good list with a variety of games. Was not expecting some of the picks, really cool.
Thanks
Frostpunk has the best sound track. I listen to it while taking my daily walk. Especially during winter. The City Must Survive.
This war of mine: the little ones, is an absolutely amazing game! I replay it every now and then, and every single time, it challenges me with heavy ass decisions and consequences. Top tier game all the way imo
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@@gameranxTV thank you!!
In OG bioshock someone did the numbers and you don't get that much more for harvesting the sister in the end. Not only the diminishing return, but Tenenbaum give you gifts and Adams in return made it so that being the bad guy isn't that good (3520 vs 3840 adams)
Forgetting Last of Us Part 2, Joel killing Fireflies to save Ellie was definitely the right thing to do.
The writers punished Joel. The game does not punish you. It's not your decision to make as a player.
What is right? Saving the one's you love at the cost of others losing the ones they love? Going on a revenge quest, knowing you hurting everyone isn't going to bring those you love back? Love this series, I believe Joel was right and wrong, I can't say I wouldn't have done the same as him even knowing what happens in part two.
I saved Kelly Chambers in ME2, but she never showed up in 3 (and I did look for her!) I always go 90% Paragon, even though I know I miss out on some good Jennifer Hale Renegade voice acting. I’ve reloaded an hours old save when I accidentally said something mean to my crew. (Or accidentally flirted with Kaiden.)
Thanks for pointing out Tyranny- it was a criminally overlooked game with an *incredible* backstory and world, and it’s a gigantic shame that we won’t likely ever see a sequel.
it's weird how early games for ps4 like Infamous Second Son have better graphics than most next gen games
Now I want to try frost punk!
Its a awesome game!
I almost always do the bad guy route for games with these kinds of metrics first because I just think it's funnier and second because growing up my older brother would do the good guy route and I would do the bad and we'd both get a viewpoint of the other. HOWEVER, RDR2 is one of the only games where it is actually significantly better if you choose the good guy route. It not only makes the story make more sense but the tax collection plotting is imo crucial to the story in a way that it feels wrong if you do the bad guy route.
I've always enjoyed videogames where the player's choices have actual impacts on the story & main characters. The Infamous franchise, Detroit Become Human, Beyond Two Souls, & Dying Light 2 are all videogames on PlayStation I've enjoyed because of this aspect.
This is one of the best subjects.
In real life i have no problem with choices. But in games.. holy moly i have a hard time.
I am playing Witcher 3 at the moment. And it feels lige i am walking on egg shells, when something happens. Half the time playing, half the time searching for consequences. 😅
Vampyr is severely underrated
Like Green Goblin said No good deed goes unpunished.
Vampyr is such a gem. It gives you such a feeling when you lure an npc that you got to know to their feeding site
A little tip or secret, if you play the game on version 1.00, unpatched vanilla, and offline, you can insert a USB keyboard into the console and go to the upgrade menu at the bed, and then press the letter 'P' on the keyboard and hold it down, you get an unlimited amount of XP; infinite even, so you can get the best ending and not drain anyone, and make your character OP from the start of the game. You're welcome.
@@J-S_93 but feeding is the best part imo. You feel so dirty but powerful lol
Bioshock “pretended” to punish you for being good. However you received bonus gifts if you rescue enough little sisters which made it basically 50/50 between good and evil.
The infamous series is just so much better playing as the bad guy it's not even debatable same with red dead redemption
The guy that chooses your thumbnails really loves inFAMOUS… me too.
Personally see it as a good thing that such an occurrence can take place in a game, it shows that one is ready to stick to their morals no matter what happens, even if it makes things more difficult. Wish more games would actually embrace such a model, but I can understand why it's usually a watered down version a la Bioshock or Vampyr.
I can’t even role play as a bad guy as I don’t find it fun even to pretend to be selfish and evil. Tried it with Hogwart’s Legacy but enjoyed the good guy route far more.
This was an awesome list! One game i find pretty underrated when it comes to morality is ThronebreakerThe Witcher Tales, there are some tough decisions in that
It’s definitely a lot more fun to play as the bad guy in infamous Second son. Sh!t does look cooler when you’re bad.
Concerning bioshock, saving all the little sisters didn’t punish the player anywhere near enough. Having played through that game probably half a dozen times, saving every little sister still gives you more than enough Adam thanks to the gifts left at the machines after every third little sister saved. The only time I harvested little sisters was for achievements
I always play Arthur picking good options _and_ shooting anyone who annoys me. My Arthur's complicated like that.
And I'd say Dishonored is the best example of a game that punishes you for being bad, yet playing the game bad is so much more fun.
Fun fact, I played frost punk exactly once. My first attempt everyone died in about an hour of playtime, everything was going fine then all of a sudden I was being overthrown by angry citizens. I then spent the next about 9 hours powering through the games story mode and once completed, although just barely, I proceeded to never touch it ever again lol.
I might play always as a paragon in Mass Effect, but there are some interactions that *always* get the renegade reaction.
Yeah, I always punch Khalisah al-Jilani too.
Regarding inFamous, the evil karma powers DO look better/are cooler, but the good karma is more rewarding. The civilians help you by out fighting your enemies and in some cases, do better than us. They can stun lock enemies by throwing rocks, and with the pulse heal in 2, collateral damage is mitigated if not outright negated by the good karma you can get from healing them.
Playing infamous second son, I maxed out both ends of the morality in one playthrough, Took a bit of grind but once you unlock the skills they don't cut off if you flip your morality, it was cool
This made me think of an older game, Sacrifice. You get to help different gods and for doing so you gain power. Many of the more morally "right" options aren't nearly as powerful. It's a game I really wish they had done more with and made a sequel of.
Yeah, my first playthrough of Infamous: Second Son was all good guy and it was a great game. But I played back through for the platinum doing an evil run and it was freaking awesome!
I only like playing a good guy as Delsin. One shot captures were beautiful and it handled better.
Being a good guy as Cole was tedious af.
And maxing out your evil Karma is a no brained quick city wide rampage.
Correct me if I’m wrong but one of the sekiro endings has you sacrifice yourself to do the right thing (sever immortality) right?
I remember playing Vampyr in 2017 on my old laptop. I really enjoyed that game.
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I feel like Wasteland 2, and especially in wasteland 3, it can be difficult to know, what is the right thing? With each choice having consequences for any action you do, even if it is the "right thing". That's my two cents.
Bioshock doesn't punish you for being good, you get more Adam for saving them.
Yeah infamous… I’m a goody good guy, so I always play first as a good guy and another Play-through with the bad guy, is sooo much better.
The forest
A really good survival game that ends with a moral choice. If you choose the good guy solution you end up with the peaceful and then with no credits, basically not much of an ending but if you choose to take the bad choice you get a full little video, that ends up informing you that you made the wrong choice in the end and then you get credits
Me, PTSD remembering the Red Baron hanging from a tree after I thought I saved the peoples...
I was astonished when I first played Frostpunk but as I started to play it through, it became a headache to manage the whole city, make harsh decisions to control the surviving population and now I am seeing that it was all intentional from the developers 😮
Frostpunk.. Oh man, I remember becoming a tyrant in my first playthrough because I chose survival and productivity over anything else but in the end, people revolted and I got steamed.
Disagree about Infamous. I often found that the "evil" powers only had an impact on certain types of combat while "good" powers affected traversal and strategic combat encounters. You wouldn't get the most powerful combat ability as a "good" character but you'd end up more effective at combat in general.
The Bioshock games actually punish you for being bad and you get less power. You kinda touched on this, but yeah if you save them you get those gifts that give a big bonus of Adam that makes up for the difference for the most part, but you are also given extra plasmids you wouldn't have acquired otherwise.