@@sailorvgirl132002 but isn't the problem is for every judge like this, we get judges that give perps a pass regardless of deals? iirc there was a judge who thought the deal was too harsh and would deprive the kid of a future so he downgraded the sentence to almost nothing.
@@targetseeker If they rejected deals all the time, and remember this is a series and we know the dude is culpable, the dude will not have a deal and the girl will be dead because the criminals will know the deals are not respected. His problem was that he asked for no time. If he had say 10 years the judge would have accepted.
The end of this is pretty realistic, IIRC: The prosecutor can make deals for sentencing *recommendations,* but that's all they are; judges can and have ignored the prosecutors and imposed greater or lesser penalties than agreed to.
It’s still extremely rare. If a prosecutor loses his power to make deals, our entire Justice system would fall. Only 2% of cases go to trial, 98% are deals, and it can still take years. Now imagine you spend 25 years in jail awaiting your trial for resisting arrest after disorderly conduct in a bar.
Even worse with the assigned lawyer in cut scripts being part of a small smuggling clan, not of children mind you but minor disabled and far-off immigrants, INCLUDING active-war refugees!
IIIRC, in the full episode, there's a scene in a social setting (bar, restaurant, . . .) between Branch and the judge where he reminds her that final decisions on sentencing rest with her before departing. IOW, he reminded her of her legally allowed discretions . . .
I remember seeing him at the table next to ours eating steak at Gibson's steakhouse25 years ago. He's 1 of my favorite actors it was the highlight of my month I really wanted to say hello , butI didn't want to invade his privacy
This actually isn’t exceptionally rare, many people don’t click in that judges are ultimately the head of the court room. They do not have to honour deals made between attorneys, and can throw out deals as they feel fit.
@@terribletrench thing is that situation should not be something that could be dealt. As said in the video, guy literally practiced extortion. Kidnaps a kid, tries to sell it and walks? Judge was right in denying it, this is illegal under any legal principle of any civilized nation
@@otaviofrn_adv It may be legal under the law, but if convicts find out his deal was denied, they won't talk anymore, no more deals, that judge just cost the investigators a very crucial and important tool to solving crimes.
@@rickscott9375 If it's a case involving trying to sell a child to a predator, I don't think that'll be the case. Most criminals who mess with kids do NOT last long in jail from what I hear.
It's the same thing that makes them think that they can coot the crime though. That they have sexual needs and they think it's only fair that those are met.
Favorite episode of all time. And it sets up the greatest legacy of the franchise at the end of the episode: Branch: “You’re a great prosecutor Jack, but you’ll never be a district attorney.” DA McCoy forever ❤️
But in a later episode he does tell McCoy that one day he'll be sitting in his chair. Jack says to him that "I'm not a politician," implying that Branch shouldn't be so sure of McCoy taking the chair.
I especially like that she was previously shown to have the moral courage to uphold proper procedure, even when it would be unpopular, before reaming the bad guy later in the episode through an entirely ethical outlet for her righteous anger.
That's really on this perp's attorney not to consider that the Judge has to sign off on the plea. Judges occasionally toss these things aside, so not exactly fantasy.
I remember watching this episode a number of times and I must tell you this has to be one of the most difficult cases I've seen. I'm glad that the girl was found the only thing I was disappointed with what's how the guy didn't get the death penalty. This episode of the original Law & Order is reminding me of a Chicago PD episode from season 9
that idiot really though he woud walk away with a deal so stupid like that he has to be deliusonal to think if it was me i woud like the judge say that the deal is not valid and send him to life without parol
It's interesting how a series can be on TV for so long and still have storylines that are relevant. What makes this series so good is that it doesn't get too deeply into the lives of the main characters. No love stories. It's all very surface. This allows each episode to focus on law enforcement and prosecution without wasting time on non-essential things.
I thought she was the one we were her husband tried to have her killed because he was jealous he was more successful than him, but she wouldn't testify against him.
This judge was great, but she was also killed off in another episode when her husband arranged for her to be shot. It was so sad. She was in her wheelchair, begging her friend who was a female judge to grant her petition to let herself die.
A part of always kinda wished that Chicago PD did a storyline involving Fontana's past as a Chicago cop. Yeah, Farina left the show in '06 and died in 2013, but the potential for a Chicago PD storyline has always been there. Given that Fontana could at times be a cowboy cop like Voight, and Olinsky, maybe Voight, Olinsky, and Platt at least knew of him and his reputation during his time in Chicago.
I commend the judge for not agreeing to the deal. If she did and that lowlife was released, there was a high chance he would have done the same thing with a different child
Any other time once the defendant has asked for his lawyer you’re supposed to stop talking no, you can continue to talk until the defendant utters a unsolicited confession which most lawyers will get thrown out if they really worked their salt
You can make any deal you like with a lawyer, that only means they will make that case to the judge. It doesn't mean you are ironclad entitled to that deal. Lawyers don't make the laws, they don't control sentencing. That power lies with the judges, and if the judge believes the deal you have tried to make is fucking ludicrous they are not obligated to honour it.
Judges should use their discretion more often because a lot of times these deals are ridiculous and these criminals that are repeat offenders get very light sentences
Had that been my daughter, that kidnapper wouldn't have to worry about serving time after I got done with him. Either way, there's no way that girl would have been alive inside that box after all that time.
Came here to say the same thing! I love that continuity! She is the same judge who ended up having the hit put out on her. I adore in universe stuff like that being paid off properly!
Karma at its best because if criminals like him think that they can commit crimes against kids without consequences they’re sadly mistaken 👍 Law and order at its best
There is an element of the case that McCoy could've argued in court and used to back out of the plea agreement: duress. The perp was holding a kid hostage and threatening to let her die if they didn't give him a walk. There actually is legal precedent for this. The West End Christian School hostage crisis involved the Governor promising a pardon and immunity in return for James Harvey releasing his hostages. Which led to the man's arrest and later conviction. He's still in prison and has been consistently denied parole.
I used to watch Law and Order all the time. I never realized that detective was the guy on "Get Shorty" and "Snatch". I can't place his name. Both movies are in my top 10 favorite movie list.
Dennis Farnia he typically plays tough guys and hardened police officers or superiors. He was in Saving Private Ryan with Tom Hanks. He was in the Bruce Willis thriller Striking Distance in 1993 playing Bruce Willis’s Uncle and Superior in the Pittsburgh Police Department they work together in. Farnia was a former police officer himself who worked on Chicago Police Department for 18 years before becoming an actor and had served 3 years in the military as well. He passed away in 2013.
I don't know if this is the same 'judge' but it's the same actress who plays a judge who is nearly killed by a guy hired by her husband who's upset she did better in her career than he did in his. I think the hubby was the Dad in the Home Alone movie and Goldie Hahn's husband in Deceived (a great story) - I get some of these performers confused.
Lindsay Crouse has played three different judges in the Law & Order universe: •Judge Denise Grobman ("DNR", 1999) (paralyzed by husband) •Judge Deidre Hellstrom ("Red Ball", 2005) (this episode) •Judge Andrews on seven episodes of SVU.
Yeah they got it right you can make a deal with the prosecutor and if judge doesn't accept it you can withdraw your guilty plea and go to trial. That happened to me on an amed robbery charge made a deal for 5 years and judge was like nope so we reworked it
This might be a jumping the shark moment for this show cause this was NOT realistic at all. The judge calling BS on this nonsense was the only logical scene.
@@uberxchuck944 Given the seasons immediately preceeding this were the Serena seasons, that's utter bollocks. No seasons are as bad as the Serena seasons (and while that's obviously opinion, it's the broadly held opinion - Serena's seasons are all the worst rated on IMDB of the original 20 season run). Nora & Arthur were clearly worse than Adam and Jack as DAs and Serena is by **far** the worst of the ADAs (like, by a mile).
"We had a deal! You can't do this!"
"You had no deal with me, Mr. Jacobs!"
Boss Judge don't take bullshit.
🤌( pretend its a snap)
She was like "what that gotta do wit me"😂😂
This judge is one of my favorites. In Law and Order and SVU. Definitely a good judge
@@sailorvgirl132002 but isn't the problem is for every judge like this, we get judges that give perps a pass regardless of deals? iirc there was a judge who thought the deal was too harsh and would deprive the kid of a future so he downgraded the sentence to almost nothing.
@@targetseeker If they rejected deals all the time, and remember this is a series and we know the dude is culpable, the dude will not have a deal and the girl will be dead because the criminals will know the deals are not respected. His problem was that he asked for no time. If he had say 10 years the judge would have accepted.
10:29
"You had no deal with _me,_ Mr. Jacobs."
*_YES!!!_*
Jack said he's stand by the deal
he never said anything about the judge
jack know the judge would react to this
@@kennethpaulsen5407 It's not Jack - Arthur went to the Judge and convinced her to reject it.
@@RLplusabunchofdumbnumbers Not sure if the sequence was correct, but that judge was later almost killed by her husband.
Man actually thought he could avoid jail time after kidnapping a little girl and attempting to sell her to a child predator 😂
Well, he never claimed to be intelligent.
Not to mention, he thought it was up to the lawyer to make up his sentence when it’s actually up to the judge and the jury 😅
Someone like that wouldn't live one day in gp.
Loved his confidence
@@forgetfuldullahan5468 often times the dumbest people are those who think themselves the most intelligent
The end of this is pretty realistic, IIRC: The prosecutor can make deals for sentencing *recommendations,* but that's all they are; judges can and have ignored the prosecutors and imposed greater or lesser penalties than agreed to.
That’s what happened to Jared Fogle.
And to Hunter Biden, no less...
It’s still extremely rare. If a prosecutor loses his power to make deals, our entire Justice system would fall. Only 2% of cases go to trial, 98% are deals, and it can still take years. Now imagine you spend 25 years in jail awaiting your trial for resisting arrest after disorderly conduct in a bar.
@@RLucas3000 It being rare is likely why a lot of people (including the kidnapper in this episode) are surprised that it happens at all.
Even worse with the assigned lawyer in cut scripts being part of a small smuggling clan, not of children mind you but minor disabled and far-off immigrants, INCLUDING active-war refugees!
Take the deal and shove it. You're going away. This judge is what every justice service needs!
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏🤯
Amen to that
Finally a judge on the side of justice
Just like a confession extracted under duress can be unlawful... so can a deal made under threat to a hostage be declared unjust.
your comment should be liked more
Honestly, what part of "sentence recommendation" implies the judge HAS to follow it?
They see it on TV and online and assume, through 'sidewalk lawyer' rules, it must be true.
Does anyone else think McCoy planned on the judge not honoring the deal?
Wouldn't surprise me. He did it before in the episode "Fools for Love" (the Karla Homolka inspired episode).
If I remember right it is strongly implied that's case and McCoy gets reamed for it. Small price to pay for getting the girl back alive.
Of course he knew, it was a tactical move to get him to incriminate himself.
Really? I saw his reaction by the judge and the D.A. confront him about the deal at the end of the episode.
IIIRC, in the full episode, there's a scene in a social setting (bar, restaurant, . . .) between Branch and the judge where he reminds her that final decisions on sentencing rest with her before departing. IOW, he reminded her of her legally allowed discretions . . .
Dennis Farina was one of the best casting choices for the Law & Order universe. 👍🏻
@@mikebasil4832 Same, also Green and Fontana/Fontana and Falco are good teams
It helped that he was a police officer for almost 20 years
I remember seeing him at the table next to ours eating steak at Gibson's steakhouse25 years ago. He's 1 of my favorite actors it was the highlight of my month
I really wanted to say hello , butI didn't want to invade his privacy
It helps that Dennis Farina was an ex-cop. Plays the role perfectly because he's lived it
@@SonicRadius He was so goddamn awesome. Wish he was still alive.
This actually isn’t exceptionally rare, many people don’t click in that judges are ultimately the head of the court room. They do not have to honour deals made between attorneys, and can throw out deals as they feel fit.
Judges will honor a plea deal 99% of the time because if they don't, crooks won't talk.
@@terribletrench thing is that situation should not be something that could be dealt. As said in the video, guy literally practiced extortion. Kidnaps a kid, tries to sell it and walks?
Judge was right in denying it, this is illegal under any legal principle of any civilized nation
@@otaviofrn_adv It may be legal under the law, but if convicts find out his deal was denied, they won't talk anymore, no more deals, that judge just cost the investigators a very crucial and important tool to solving crimes.
@@rickscott9375 If it's a case involving trying to sell a child to a predator, I don't think that'll be the case. Most criminals who mess with kids do NOT last long in jail from what I hear.
@@rickscott9375Yeah nah, even convicts hate child predators. They would understand.
Let's be fair, if a case involves kids there's always we have serious matters (And well more than just furious detectives)
Especially with a most morally powerful judge for which Lindsay Crouse was quite fittingly cast. 👏🏻
@@mikebasil4832 Yeep
👏👏👏i was clapping when the judge spoke.
ole boy thought just because he make a deal with the D.A. does not mean any Judge has to accept it. Judges can have a lot of discretion.
Funny how criminals get upset, for not being treated "fair"
As if they deserve it,like boy bye! 🤣👋
It's the same thing that makes them think that they can coot the crime though. That they have sexual needs and they think it's only fair that those are met.
everyone deserves a fair trial
Quite possibly the best ending... the smile that sneaked across my face when she said you had no deal with me...
Favorite episode of all time. And it sets up the greatest legacy of the franchise at the end of the episode:
Branch: “You’re a great prosecutor Jack, but you’ll never be a district attorney.”
DA McCoy forever ❤️
But in a later episode he does tell McCoy that one day he'll be sitting in his chair. Jack says to him that "I'm not a politician," implying that Branch shouldn't be so sure of McCoy taking the chair.
Karma was truly deserving for that guy. His plea deal was with McCoy but not with the judge.
I like that judge
I especially like that she was previously shown to have the moral courage to uphold proper procedure, even when it would be unpopular, before reaming the bad guy later in the episode through an entirely ethical outlet for her righteous anger.
YOu know it's a TV show when a NYC judge gets it right lmao
He knew who the judge really was. She wasnt going to go for it😊
That’s karma for you buddy!!!!!
I think McCoy had a feeling the judge wouldn't go for it.!!!
That's really on this perp's attorney not to consider that the Judge has to sign off on the plea. Judges occasionally toss these things aside, so not exactly fantasy.
I would be thinking in my head “yeah you made a deal with me! Me!! Not the judge” 😂😂😂😂😂 as he was being taken away lol
James has played 2 very LeGross characters on the Law and Order franchise.
More judges LIKE THIS in every country please
Amen to that.
Yeah sorry whenever it comes to kids, you don't get a deal other than hoping that you might get solitary confinement in prison.
I remember watching this episode a number of times and I must tell you this has to be one of the most difficult cases I've seen. I'm glad that the girl was found the only thing I was disappointed with what's how the guy didn't get the death penalty. This episode of the original Law & Order is reminding me of a Chicago PD episode from season 9
the judge has full discretion to overturn any pre existing deal and carry out judgment as he/her sees fit in the interests of justice
that idiot really though he woud walk away with a deal so stupid like that he has to be deliusonal to think if it was me i woud like the judge say that the deal is not valid and send him to life without parol
Ouch, that is some serious road rash.
McCoy always tries to work his angles and connections
That’s how lawyers are, they’re *all* connected
It's interesting how a series can be on TV for so long and still have storylines that are relevant. What makes this series so good is that it doesn't get too deeply into the lives of the main characters. No love stories. It's all very surface. This allows each episode to focus on law enforcement and prosecution without wasting time on non-essential things.
its because afiak every episode is loosely based on a real case, keeping it relevant as long as crimes continue to happen
I absolutely love this series, I'm just out detox, 97days clean, I got through it by binge watching this and nypd blue, thanks guys
Congratulations by the way
Ta buddy
Now that is a judge with a heart
More judges need to be... judicial, like this.
1:37 isn’t that the same actress from that L&O episode where she was the mom of this little girl who got shot by another kid at her daycare?
I think so.
I thought she was the one we were her husband tried to have her killed because he was jealous he was more successful than him, but she wouldn't testify against him.
@@nataliereeves3594 that's the episode I was thinking of too.
@@katherynemero4118 only so many backup actors lol
Yes the same actress! Good eye 😅
It's sickening that we have people like this walking around this world that hurt lil children 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬
Need more judges like that
The ending is sooooo good. From the acting to the judge shutting sh!t down just 💋💋💋
This judge was great, but she was also killed off in another episode when her husband arranged for her to be shot. It was so sad. She was in her wheelchair, begging her friend who was a female judge to grant her petition to let herself die.
Same actress, different character.
Best judge right here.
Shes not letting this monster get away with his action without consequence.
Best judge ever!!
A part of always kinda wished that Chicago PD did a storyline involving Fontana's past as a Chicago cop. Yeah, Farina left the show in '06 and died in 2013, but the potential for a Chicago PD storyline has always been there.
Given that Fontana could at times be a cowboy cop like Voight, and Olinsky, maybe Voight, Olinsky, and Platt at least knew of him and his reputation during his time in Chicago.
I commend the judge for not agreeing to the deal. If she did and that lowlife was released, there was a high chance he would have done the same thing with a different child
Good for the judge!
"I.Will. NOT...honor it." I got a f*cking CHILL when she said that!!
Basic principle of contracts. Any contract agreed to under blackmail or duress cannot be enforced.
Prosecutors can make all kinds of deals but only the judge really matters
Any other time once the defendant has asked for his lawyer you’re supposed to stop talking no, you can continue to talk until the defendant utters a unsolicited confession which most lawyers will get thrown out if they really worked their salt
actually, as per recent scotus decisions, the suspect must clearly state "i will not talk until i get a lawyer"
The judge is a true badass! 👊👊😎😎
"You had no deal with ME, Mister Jacobs."
NGL that line goes HARD
#law&order awe tht poor girl hope get home and found Safety 😮😮😮😮
I am altering the deal. Pray I alter it no further.
Hope he knows what they do to those like him in prison
I don't know how James LeGros did that empty, soul-less look in his eyes but it's not something you see in his other roles. Awesome performance.
He really thought he’d get away with it 😂
I like the judge's voice and her name "Hellstrom" I like to re-arrange two of the letters and re name her "HellStorm"
You can make any deal you like with a lawyer, that only means they will make that case to the judge. It doesn't mean you are ironclad entitled to that deal. Lawyers don't make the laws, they don't control sentencing. That power lies with the judges, and if the judge believes the deal you have tried to make is fucking ludicrous they are not obligated to honour it.
Anyone remember the "My office is satisfied" "Well, I'm not" scene from SVU? Almost the same thing here.
Lindsay Crouse was excellent as Judge Hellstrom. When she said, "You had no deal with ME !" I got chills up my spine !!!
Judges should use their discretion more often because a lot of times these deals are ridiculous and these criminals that are repeat offenders get very light sentences
Had that been my daughter, that kidnapper wouldn't have to worry about serving time after I got done with him. Either way, there's no way that girl would have been alive inside that box after all that time.
Fontana doing his best Ray Bones, that man didnt mess around!
Love this judge. It’s so sad what her husband does to her
Jack knew that the judge would not allow it
Fucking brilliant judge 😂😂😂😂
yes, a judge can negate the plea
Somehow I knew the judge wasn't gonna honor the deal. Justice, bitches.
Cops are allowed to lie. There is no reason he should have thought that deal would actually hold without it in writing.
Even if it was in writing, prosecutors are only able to recommend a sentencing. The judge has the final say on what they actually serve.
Isn't that the same judge who was later run over (or otherwise injured) & paralyzed by her husband?
Came here to say the same thing! I love that continuity! She is the same judge who ended up having the hit put out on her. I adore in universe stuff like that being paid off properly!
Also the same judge in SVU too
Different character, same actress. Same goes for SVU. Judges Hellstrom (here), Grobman (S10E03), and Andrews (SVU).
An honest judge in new york city, who would have thought it possible!!!
Props to the judge.
Perfect ending. The trial judge made the right call. It was Justified.
Never make a deal with the devil! 😶🤯
Did they ever arrest his mom for being apart of the kidnapping? He did say she was being held at his mother's place.
Karma at its best because if criminals like him think that they can commit crimes against kids without consequences they’re sadly mistaken 👍 Law and order at its best
There is an element of the case that McCoy could've argued in court and used to back out of the plea agreement: duress. The perp was holding a kid hostage and threatening to let her die if they didn't give him a walk. There actually is legal precedent for this. The West End Christian School hostage crisis involved the Governor promising a pardon and immunity in return for James Harvey releasing his hostages. Which led to the man's arrest and later conviction. He's still in prison and has been consistently denied parole.
The school employee telling the detectives about his other address was a bluebird. Way to quickly move the story along.
I wish we had more judges like this, making plea deals is not real justice
And it ends as every episode of Law And Order should: "DOONG-DOONG!"
*8:20**-**10:51*
GO JUDGE DEIDRE HAILLSTROM GO
😎🤩😆
Not so smug now, eh, Jacobs?
I used to watch Law and Order all the time. I never realized that detective was the guy on "Get Shorty" and "Snatch". I can't place his name. Both movies are in my top 10 favorite movie list.
Dennis Farnia he typically plays tough guys and hardened police officers or superiors. He was in Saving Private Ryan with Tom Hanks. He was in the Bruce Willis thriller Striking Distance in 1993 playing Bruce Willis’s Uncle and Superior in the Pittsburgh Police Department they work together in. Farnia was a former police officer himself who worked on Chicago Police Department for 18 years before becoming an actor and had served 3 years in the military as well. He passed away in 2013.
why is he trying to go after him when the judge is saying directly to him that she’s going against it!! lol sir run after her
Because he’s a dumb crook. Didn’t know the judge could do that.
Jacobs really reminds me of the guy that played Eugene Tooms in the X Files
Mccoy has more self-control than me, I wouldn't be able to resist laughing in that smug psycho's face.
I don't know if this is the same 'judge' but it's the same actress who plays a judge who is nearly killed by a guy hired by her husband who's upset she did better in her career than he did in his. I think the hubby was the Dad in the Home Alone movie and Goldie Hahn's husband in Deceived (a great story) - I get some of these performers confused.
Lindsay Crouse has played three different judges in the Law & Order universe:
•Judge Denise Grobman ("DNR", 1999) (paralyzed by husband)
•Judge Deidre Hellstrom ("Red Ball", 2005) (this episode)
•Judge Andrews on seven episodes of SVU.
The Judge is right, he or she could accept the recommendations of the attorneys. That doesn’t mean they honor it. She was entirely in the right
The only thing i consistently loathe about law and order is that they will show the police denying counsel, or treating asking for a lawyer as guilt.
That’s crazy technically unless both parties signed a contract then there was no deal. Great ruling
Jacob is a psychopath
Yeah they got it right you can make a deal with the prosecutor and if judge doesn't accept it you can withdraw your guilty plea and go to trial. That happened to me on an amed robbery charge made a deal for 5 years and judge was like nope so we reworked it
James LeGros was very scary in this episode !!!
we need more judges like her lol
any sensible judge would make the same decision
A reel to reel @3:52? This episode taking place in 1970?
This might be a jumping the shark moment for this show cause this was NOT realistic at all. The judge calling BS on this nonsense was the only logical scene.
I dont watch it for reality lol
You’re absolutely right. The series is all downhill after this season
@@uberxchuck944 Given the seasons immediately preceeding this were the Serena seasons, that's utter bollocks.
No seasons are as bad as the Serena seasons (and while that's obviously opinion, it's the broadly held opinion - Serena's seasons are all the worst rated on IMDB of the original 20 season run).
Nora & Arthur were clearly worse than Adam and Jack as DAs and Serena is by **far** the worst of the ADAs (like, by a mile).