PADI Faces Liability for Linnea Mills Death: My Hopes For The Legacy Of The Lady In The Lake
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 24 июл 2022
- A Judge in Montana has decided PADI must face a Jury to decide if it is vicariously liable for the tragic and highly preventable death of SCUBA diver Linnea Mills. The Professional Association of Diving Instructors Worldwide Corporation is denying vicarious responsibility for the November 2020 death of Linnea Mills, according to a document filed April 4 in Missoula County District Court.
PADI claim that all of their Instructor's are held to a high standard and mointored by PADI, but Instructors are not 'agents' of PADI... well, which is it? Because you can't have it both ways, PADI! Either you are responsible for the oversight of your Instructors, you have control over them, which means they are agents of PADI, or you admit you have no quality assurance and no control over who teaches PADI programs.
You can read the full lawsuit here: www.scribd.com/document/55540...
Let me know in the comments what you think.
Thanks for watching. D.S.D.O
James
-----------------------------------------------
Want some Divers Ready! Swag? Head to The Dive Locker Store on our website! www.diversready.com/store
-----------------------------------------------
What do we dive? Our full and independently chosen gear choices are here:
bit.ly/divers-ready-dive-gear
------------------------------------------------
Connect with Divers Ready!:
Facebook: / diversready
Instagram: / diversready
Twitter: @diversready
------------------------------------------------
FOR MORE INFORMATION or to collaborate with Divers Ready! you can reach out to us via our website:
www.diversready.com
-----------------------------------------------
These links are affiliate links. Purchases made through these links may earn me a small commission at no additional cost to you and I thank you for your support. Also note I use links from Family-Owned Dive Shops who are smart enough to use Amazon as their e-commerce platform, because it's 2022.
If you want to take a PERSONALIZED dive course at any level with James from Divers Ready, you can contact us here:
www.miamitechnicaldiving.com/...
-----------------------------------------------
**Disclaimer: Divers Ready! firmly believes you can not teach someone to dive through the internet. We strongly urge people to ensure they receive dive instruction through an internationally recognized training agency and to dive safely and within the limits of their certification level at all times. Our channel is aimed at already-certified divers looking to further their skills.**
----------------------------------------------
In accordance with COPPA laws, please note that content on the channel Divers Ready is not specifically made for, or targeted at, children.
----------------------------------------------
Dive Safe. Dive Often.
#scubadiving #diversready #improveinspireexplore
Music used under license. Get yours here!
www.epidemicsound.com/referra...
Though we are based in Florida, Hawaii, California, and Michigan have 100 ft and 300 ft ocean and lake underwater coral reef, shipwreck, cave diving, freediving, scuba diving, and closed circuit rebreather trips. To learn full face mask, beginner scuba diver, advanced scuba diver, tech scuba diver, cave diver you can reach out to a professional scuba diver. Everyone should get scuba diving insurance with Divers Alert Network.
We support all types of diving that can be found at PADI, DALLMYD, Dive Talk where they talk about cave divers react, Waterline Academy and BlueWorld TV.
We support all types of diving products, like a full face mask, fins, BCD, dive computer, regulators, closed circuit rebreather, underwater scooter, from many companies like Simply Scuba, Mares, Dive Rite, Cressi, Zeagle, Huish, Hollis, Scubapro, Shearwater, Garmin.
Over the years we have dived the best places like South Africa, Australia Great Barrier Reef, Belize, Honduras, Palau Micronesia, Bahamas, Mexico, Bonaire to see sharks, fish, coral, sites that the National Geographics would go to. We plan to follow Tourpia, Fearless & Fun, Drew Binsky and companies like Expedia, Jetsetter and Mojo Travelers to Egypt Red Sea, Indonesia, Thailand, Galapagos, Maldives, Cozumel and Cocos Islands Costa Rica in the near future.
PADI Faces Liability for Linnea Mills Death: My Hopes For The Legacy Of The Lady In The Lake
Linnea was the sweetest person I’ve ever known and I’m so grateful to have been her friend. I’ll never forget the day my mom had to tell me what happened to her and even worse having to keep learning new tragic facts about the disgusting negligence that caused her death. Thank you for covering her story and continuing to bring awareness. It doesn’t feel like 2 years has gone by, her death is still incredibly painful to think about for everyone who loved her.
I am so sorry for your loss. This should never have happened! But hopefully her legacy can bring some change to the money making industry that diving has become.
It breaks my heart every time i think of her - all my thoughts are with you and her family
All of that is true, but I still don’t see how PADI could be held criminally or civil liable in this instance. It’s obvious that the instructors themselves were the screwup‘s, not PADI. I understand the lawyers want more money by going after a big scuba organization, and I understand that is trendy to make fun of PADI in scuba circles, but just because PADI is socially disliked among many scuba divers doesn’t mean that they should be held civilly liable or criminally liable for something they didn’t do. The law needs to apply fairly to everybody
@@charlesg7926 you’re allowed to have your own opinion and even comment it on this video, but I get notified when people respond to my comment specifically and this isn’t what I care to see or discuss. Thank you.
@@charlesg7926 You seem to have missed the legal issue and instead are using your feels. PADI makes representations about the abilities of their instructors and that they have a quality assurance program. This is EXACTLY why laws for 'vicarious liability' exist. PADI can't make claims that it controls quality of instruction while doing nothing to ensure it. That's fraud. Students rely on PADI as a way of determining an instructors ability to train them safely. If PADI doesn't actually do anything to make sure instructors train safely and are competent on an ongoing basis then they have no basis to make claims about their instructors. The only claim they could make in that case is that the instructor is certified in giving the PADI class. But PADI makes stronger claims than that.
This has nothing to do with being "trendy". Hope you never get stuck with a lame instructor who puts you in danger. Happened to me and I lost faith in PADI meaning anything in terms of an instructor's abilities long ago.
I'm so sorry for your loss.
I started diving when I was 11 in 1967 when instructors were mostly former frogmen. They put you through torture by today’s standards. Doff and Don in deep water, pulling your mask off and making you find it and clear it, cutting your air off, etc etc. That was all par for the course. I was the youngest in the class by a decade, but was a fish and had no problem. I went on to be a NAUI, PADI and SDI instructor, and I’m glad to see the idea that everyone can dive or instruct, come under scrutiny. I’ve told many people over the years that they should not dive, because it was clear that they were doing it for the wrong reason - for a spouse, a boyfriend or some other reason, but not only didn’t have a passion for diving, they had an irrational fear of the water. I’ve also taught people to dive that were dying of cancer and diving was on their bucket list, and I was happy to do it. There are some people who should not dive or instruct. Maybe this will return some sanity to the dive industry.
One of the saddest diving " accidents" I can recall.
So upsetting because it was so preventable.
In my humble opinion the dive center operators are guilty of negligent manslaughter.
Well spoken piece, I agree with every single word, and I share your anger.
R.I.P Linnea 🙏
yes..not PADI though
My oldest son got his junior OW at 11 (and I got my OW at the same time). Our open water training dives were done in Victoria, Canada, in drysuits.
We did a confined water orientation and had properly functioning drysuits. On our first training dive, my son didn't add enough air to his suit or equalize his mask, got a bit of a squeeze and surfaced again.
He struggled for a bit, but between the cold, the discomfort of the drysuit in general, and now the added discomfort of the squeeze, he wasn't able to do it and the instructor called off the dive.
We returned to the boat, talked it over with him, and my son was able to complete the rest of the dives, do all the skills, and complete his certification.
We were on vacation at the time and had very limited time to dive, and our instructor knew that, and knew that cancelling the dive might mean we didn't get out certifications that trip, but he was willing to do it anyways, even knowing we might be pissed off that we didn't finish our course.
That's how it should be done. When something goes wrong, you try to fix it, and if you can't, you call off the dive.
I am guessing you did your training with Rockfish ? If it was, and Tyler was operating the boat ... he was my OW instructor.
Yep, as someone else said, that instructor is gold. Thanks for sharing this story.
It took me longer to study for my amateur radio foundation license
Exactly, part of the problem could be the dive shop. I was fired from a dive shop a while back because I refused to do something because I would be breaking PADI standards but the shop didn’t care and put profit over safety. Well, two months later and the shop had a fatality at their boat. Glad I stood my ground.
Don't apologize. You are right on. I am a rec driver, about 250 dives. PADI certified in open water, Advanced Diver, Dry suit, Nitrox. I have to say, my initial dive instructor was excellent, and I felt comfortable doing my first dives. When I took my Advanced class, my instructor entered the water having not zipped his dry suit closed. This in in Puget Sound, cold and dark water. He of course immediately flooded, got out, and had his assistant instructor complete my dive. I wrote it off at the time.... anyone can make a dumb mistake. Now of course, I realize he was not a qualified instructor, regardless of certifications. Now I am taking a refresher course, to make sure I am qualified to do the kind of diving I want to do.
I was also really angry about this. Thanks for verbalizing better than I could!
My father was a PADI master diver Instructor in Iowa from PADI's beginning. He was also A Navy swimmer (pre UDT, SEAL TEAMS), salvage diver, and submarine lockout diver. He taught over 2000 students over a 30 year period. He also wrote the first book on under water search and recovery. Diving truly was his life. He never lost a student. To him, safety was of top priority and he could explain why. If he didn't think you could cut it, he told you. Sadly he passed away in 2018.
PADI put him on suspension in I think the 80's for teaching students life saving techniques like buddy breathing if you don't have an octopus. Back then an octopus was a rarity/lugsury. PADI's lawiers view, it seams was dead people can't Sue, if they tried something to save themselves and drown in the process. Back then becoming an instructor was real serious work. The open water diver pool final was a writen test on plastic sheet at the bottom of the deep end in pencil. Other instructors would flood your mask etc to simulate a stressful situation with your mind on something else. His classes were almost always full. There were very few divers back then that I wouldnt bet my life on. It appears from what I have seen and heard, PADI has a long history of negligance and deserves to get there butt kicked in court.
Hey David. Can you tell me the name of the book about search and rescue your dad wrote. Regards
I've never dived despite being interested in it years ago and getting a medical for it. For some reason PADI to me just seems like a really bad organisation. I can't quite put my finger on why though.
Great video James. I have not renewed my PADI instructor this year as a result of PADI continuing down the path of creating inept instructors. I was originally certified as a PADI instructor in 1981. Twelve of us were in the course and myself and two others passed it. For 41 years I was a member but I finally got disgusted with their on going watering down of standards and charging more for renewals and course materials. Thanks again for your forthrightness in telling it as it should be told.
As a reasonably new scuba diver (started in Aug 2017 after having been a free diver since 6 yo) AND 2 decades of skydiving experience I was nothing less than AMAZED by how “easy” instructor credentials are obtained in scuba diving with NO real connection between real experience and what instructor level are available at X or Y experience level.
Keep up the good work, mate.
Spot on mate! I was certified as a PADI Instructor in 1976. I thought thru New England Divers in Seattle. I also graduated from the Marine Tech program at Highline College. Back then the focus was not on proficiency, but gear sales. My exposure to the whole lack of skilled proficiency did not mesh with the skills being thought in my Marine Tech training, which was a nationally recognized commercial diving program. After the class that opened my eyes to the sales side of things, I said goodbye to PADI instruction, and I never regretted it for a minute. An instructor led dive with a student in a dry suit w/o an inflator hose AND unditchable weight is criminally stupid and incredibly negligent. May she Rest In Peace🙏
You name ONE dive shop owner who doesn't need to sell gear and they will have gone out of business or will.
This is your best video. Thank you for saying publicly and to a wider audience what so many of us have felt about this horrific tragedy since it occurred. People deserve to know.
Thanks for your support! Dive safe.
Thank you.
When I first read about the accident I was like you, thoroughly livid that this was even allowed to reach the point it did. Then when I heard no criminal charges would be pursued I had to walk away. I also hope some changes come from this. Thank you again for voicing what I'm quite certain many instructors have been thinking.
P.S. a no retry policy is a tad harsh, a minimum wait or (even better) a required remedial training, would make sense.
Wow James, on a happier note I was on a dive boat several weeks ago, a gentleman showed up and said he was Advanced Open Water and met the criteria blah blah blah. And he showed a level of ineptitude that the Dive Master and boat captain told him to leave and that they would refund his money. I wasn't really sure what I was going to do as a paying customer but this guy was dangerous to himself and anybody near. Thank goodness they took appropriate action. (They were PADI).
There are extremely competent and amazing Instructors and Dive Centers that are affiliated with PADI. Unfortunately, PADI itself pays lip services to their quality standards.
Individual Instructors and Dive Centers have to hold themselves to a much higher standard, and many of them do.
Don't get me wrong I'm not defending PADI. I don't have a dog in that fight I've got certifications from at least three agencies. It does boil down for the instructor. And I got a lot of respect for the dive operation when they told a guy to go home and that they would refund his money. I can say that dive trip was not cheap.
As a dry suit man myself this really hits home with me. I share your anger and have been reading about this today. No hose! I have felt my suits squeeze and it is hard to inflate your lungs until you inflate them. Seriously heart breaking. And then the weight! I'm only a sport diver but I am going to push this video onto my club to have annual dry suit drills and skills for all members.
Thanks for sharing! Dive safe.
I’m a new PADI DM and I agree 100%. I’m friends with a number of instructors who are very good because they purposely go beyond. I wouldn’t be lying if I told you a number of us are thinking of jumping to SDI TDI for the reasons you mention
How about considering a training agency that does not teach quickie courses?
@@danmarelli551 Such as?
@@mikesbigadventures194 Scuba Educators (formerly known as YSCUBA), CMAS. BSAC or any agency that does not certify a diver in 2 weekends (sometimes less).
@@danmarelli551 was looking at doing my PADI refresher course as it’s been a while but just contacted BSAC sounds positive
I agree with most everything you say in your video, but this case is nevertheless harder than you believe and I think the lawyers are correct in utilizing the civil route which has a lower burden of proof than does the criminal option. For a little background, I'm a lawyer. I was certified ow through Padi in the late 90s. My wife was certified ow Padi in 2008. She also got a NOAA science diving cert during oceanographer education. My kids got NAUI ows over the last 4 years. In addition to ow I have advanced, rescue, and some specialties. I not only carefully read the materials I received for each of my courses, but every time a family member got certified I read their materials and usually went along on the dives (always re kids), so I have read these materials many times, for an amateur. The difficulty I think the prosecutor/plaintiff has, and the reason I think the P was right in pursuing this civilly, is that Padi can point to their textbooks / online learning as evidence that they warned the victim, the instructor, and the dive shop that the practices utilized on this dive were dangerous. Having read the materials many times, I can say with confidence that a reasonable student reading Padi (or Naui for that matter) materials should have and would have known that the practices on that dive were unsafe. That the victim dove anyway and that the instructor and shop ignored the written materials, is going to make convincing the jury that Padi caused her death criminally (beyond a reasonable doubt) harder and could bring certain legal defenses into play. I don't say these things to bash the victim. We all know that some instructors are far too lax and it is not at all hard for me to imagine that she was told not to bother with the book / online materials, or perhaps not even given the materials, and I believe, as do I think most of you, that it was reasonable of her to rely on her instructor and the dive shop. I am only pointing out that trying this case criminally is hard from a lawyer's point of view. Civilly, the standard of proof is lower -- better chances of a win that motivates change in the sport. One last quibble -- allegations are not proof; the lawyers that decided to pursue this civilly may know things we do not know that could make proving allegations difficult. Finally none of this is meant to bash the video, which is of course made from an expert diver's point of view rather than that of a lawyer.
I think you missed the point in the video where he said he would like to see the instructor and the dive shop owner criminally charged? He didn't say anything about charging PADI criminally. I'm no lawyer, but there has to be something you could charge the people that were directly responsible for her death with. I get that it would be hard to prove negligence on behalf of PADI, but it would be much easier to prove that the instructors and dive shop were grossly negligent.
Can't you do both?
To Arron and Steve, great points! They could separate the dive shop from PADI and even the instructor from the dive shop, and proceed criminally against only the most culpable, though doing so might not EDIT be possible or tactically sound depending on the facts, the law, and court procedure. I wrote my answer assuming that they decided that separating was a bad idea / not possible because, frankly, if they could cleave some Defendants from the PADI written materials and chose not to the whole thing makes even less sense. But yeah, short answer: it's theoretically possible. And you're also right that usually victims can get two bites at the apple if prosecutors charge criminally while victims' lawyers file a civil complaint, but that is not always the case because states have passed various laws that have blurred the lines and sometimes courts let bits from one case into another, which means that attempting two bites can introduce risk for victims seeking redress. Also, most prosecutors have an ethical or policy limitation that precludes filing cases they don't think they can win which could apply here. But bottom line you're both right. Hitting every eventuality or possibility in my RUclips comment would have made it too long. The overall point I'm trying to make is that as horrible as this was, the defense is not unarmed, and that fact probably explains the decision to avoid a criminal case. In the interests of brevity I left much unsaid.
People know driving a vehicle is dangerous as well yet they get involuntary manslaughter charges all the time. I do agree with Steve’s post that no one is asking for paid to get criminal charges but instead the instructor. I know you were addressing padi, but i respectfully disagree with prosecutors decision not to pursue charges against instructor.
@@stevenkundert3274 the title of the video is all about PADI facing liability. And he harps on PADI’s training and certification standards as being problematic. He basically glosses over the instructor and the company being trash, but he harps in PADI.
Thank you for calling it what it is, James. I read up on Linnea’s death and have also followed the updates. I too am horrified by the gross negligence of this instructor and dive shop. I am glad you are speaking up for her and for her family. I hope some swift changes will occur in diving protocols because of Linnea.
As a fellow Englishman, wise words said with passion, You are spot on with your observations on the slack standards that are out there by some, not all PADI instructors. It is up to PADI to sort their methodology out and the certification standards of the instructors. In the UK this would probably have been dealt with by the health and safety at work act where there are unlimited sentence powers given to the court where you commit a criminal office if convicted at court. Let's hope this tragic story has some meaningful improvement in the regulation of instruction given.
There is also manslaughter by gross negligence in English law - negligence leading to death where the negligence is so severe as to amount to a crime.
@@DavidWood2 yep it would have been an easy conviction in UK law, that said having too much litigation in diving and the general overreaction to that is pants.
@@tomriley5790 The UK Law simply renders responsibility (matching authority) accountable, as a matter of common sense. If what happened was foreseeable, then not taking sensible precautions has consequences.
@@DavidWood2 negligence causing death on behalf of the dive leader and I think PADI could be held vicariously liable also as the training body? But I'm not 100% sure
So what do instuctors get for tbeir padi fees??? Permission to work thats it..no support. Corona lock downs proved padi was still money hungry as most instructors went home broke.
This video opened my eyes so much. I did not realise just how blindly I trusted my instructors & Padi. Thankfully I had a great instructor & hopefully many to come. I learned I need to assess everyone I dive with, including my instructors. Thankfully I learned it quickly in my diving journey. Hopefully I never forget it for a moment.
I've watched a number of your videos and I have always appreciated your honesty. This was a difficult conversation to have and yet very much needed. You have a new subscriber because of your willingness to have the tough talks.
Thanks for this honest and meaningful video. This was a very senseless death, which was absolutely avoidable. You honor the sport and the young lady by making certain her death is not forgotten or repeated. Great job again on another video. Be safe and take care.
Thanks for your support! Dive safe.
I’m hoping that Debra Snow serves jail time for negligence, especially now that they found out she took Linnea’s dive computer and sent it out of state. This whole case makes me so angry.
"Two tragedies have already happened." An excellent statement. PADI has had this reputation. My first C-Card was NAUI, then my instructor adivsed that I set aside the time to take the Los Angeles County ADP course for their Advanced Diver certification. That was a FULL SUMMER, weekly academic and in-water, multi-skilled advanced course that included rescue certification and First Aid. My instructor taught PADI when the dive shop switched to PADI from NAUI though she refused to compromise her standards. She'd always said that it is the INSTRUCTOR that makes the course work. She also teaches for Handicapped Scuba Association - another strict organization with some specific/unique standards. We've seen too many divers become open water certified and instructors in a single season of diving after maybe 100 dives. This can (has) lead to Linnea Mills' death. The Linnea Mills case has us both shocked. Your rant here is justified.
I was NASDS Open Water, and have seen some almost near tragedies from PADI trained people. The old style 10 week courses are the only way to go, not these 3 hour cruises!
Thankfully, your instructor was ignoring PADI edict to never add to their curriculum.
I believe you have made one of the most honest videos I have seen in a while. I pray for her and her family and believe her legacy should live on. You have brought light to a situation that I was not aware of. I'm just your average "civilian" PADI Advance Open Water Drive, I received that certification years ago; around 1998-200- when I was 16-17 years old. With that being said, I do not dive all the time and for the most part just live in that world once maybe twice in a good year. I had no idea about the issues with PADI, the behind the scene instructor aspects, ETC. This video for me has a silver lining and you should be proud it is making a difference. I now know, and will be questioning any dive instructor/leader going forward on their credentials as I rely on that experience since I'm not a professional diver, I'm just the Joe Blow with a certification and minor experience in comparison. But prior to seeing you're video I placed alot of trust in them just having that certification and my intuition of there actions in the moment. Thank You
Sir, i’ve been a big fan of your channel for a long time, and I appreciate videos like this. I hadn’t heard of this until I watched your video. Thank you for bringing it to light. It’s a terrible tragedy and my heart goes out to her and her family.
Lotta passion in the comment section, which maybe isn’t a bad thing. Irrespective of one’s position on the matter, I think it’s an excellent conversation to have. Scuba Diving almost fell under government control in the 70s in California, and if things like this continue without deep reflection and self correction, there will be a reckoning in the diving world. Thanks again for the stellar content.
As a father who’s been diving with both my kids since last year this story makes me sick. I cannot believe that such incompetent instructors and sloppy dive shop operators exists.
I firmly believe that dive shop and instructor selection is at least as important as the Agency if not more.
All I can say is that instructor would not have meet the Quebec’s regulations and requirements. And definitely not come close to my instructor’s expectations!
Condolences to the family
Sloppy instructors can happen regardless of the certification agency. You can’t blame PADI for something that they’re not aware of. The quality of the instructors depends completely on the dive shop in which they work. The PADI instructors I know are all first rate, as is the shop that they work for. They won’t certify anyone that isn’t up to the task of diving safely.
@@mudman6156 as I said, instructor and shop selection must come first then the agency.
The value really comes from the instructor not the agency.
Did I blame PaDI?
Do I understand your comment correctly? (Me being french speaking)
Thank you for making this video. I hope you keep it posted
Thanks for watching! Dive safe.
Thank you, John, for your great coverage & spot on opinions of this case.
I shed a tear every time I read or hear something about Miss Mills.
This tragedy was absolutely avoidable.
I too had a great Course Director. I would have failed at least half of my cohort in my IE. Yet, we all passed.
Thanks for your thoughts on this James. I was doing my drysuit training at the time of this tragedy. Feeling the squeeze of a drysuit is something hard to explain to someone who hasn’t experienced it. I cannot imagine what she experienced at the end. I hope you’re comments are heard by someone who can make change.
Thanks for your support! Dive safe.
James has always emphasized the importance of choosing the Instructor, not the Agency. This Montana "instructor" and dive shop should be undone criminally and financially for their negligence and manslaughter. I'm not going to defend or attack any agency because I've seen lacking among several. I believe it's bigger than any one agency - an industry issue. The whole thing with this young lady's demise is sickening, gut wrenching, maddening. May every diver, past-present-future, learn from her tragedy and let it influence every single dive and scuba related choice they make, so as to give a modicum of meaning to her death. May she know peace and may her loved ones find some sense of justice.
All the shop owners need to do is declare bankruptcy, open a new company and continue on using a different agency; they won't be hurt financially, only the instructor will. Don't think this doesn't happen.
well spoken!
as a PADI diver, i never felt any of my courses were difficult, and in light of this accident i truly hope the ramifications lead to more safety and QA.
I am just happy that even though I was instructed under PADI, i had respectful and knowledgeable instructors, that pushed us further, and always spoke of how we are responsible of our own skills and need to constantly work on them.
from this day forward I will most likely transfer over to SSI teachings, if not in a tech program. it's what's available in sweden.
thank you for speaking of it, and looking forward to the G1 review. :)
I agree 100% James. I got my OW cert around the time this happened, and was appalled at what the "instructor" allowed to happen. My wife saw links to this and I had to spend an hour explaining the incident, how it should have been prevented, and how I would work to keep something similar from happening to me. With just my OW and watching some videos on RUclips, I knew more about dry suit diving than this "instructor", and at the time I had no plans to ever dive a dry suit.
I fully believe PADI has serious responsibility for this negligent death, right up there with the "instructor". But I think we as a diving community share some of the responsibility as well. We need to ask more questions of our diving instructors before we sign up for a class to ensure they have the knowledge to safely teach the course. We need to speak to their previous students. We need to ask about their diving experience as it relates to what they're teaching. If inexperienced instructors can't get students to train, they'll stop getting the instructor certifications until they have that experience. I think what you said about requiring 500 dives to get an instructor cert is a great idea, or at least 100 non-training dives. And I think you should have had to get the student cert for any specialty you want to teach and have verified dives using that cert before becoming an instructor. Probably even should pass an instructor level exam and lead a class under an experienced instructor for that specialty, just like you do for OW instructor.
Just as importantly, we need to do independent learning prior to class to fully understand what we will be learning. Had the poor lady watched a few videos on dry suit diving prior to that class, she would have known how dangerous her situation was without the correct hose and being over weighted. She didn't know any better, because all of her knowledge came from an incompetent instructor who had no business teaching anything, let alone that specialty.
I wish they had been able to get a criminal conviction on the "instructor". Since that ship has sailed, or sunk, a hefty judgement against her is the best option left. And a heft judgement against PADI will hopefully get all the agencies looking at how they certify instructors, how they hold them to their standards, and hopefully keep more families from experiencing this horrible tragedy.
"But I think we as a diving community share some of the responsibility as well. We need to ask more questions of our diving instructors before we sign up for a class to ensure they have the knowledge to safely teach the course." - Significant parts of the diving community already do. Sadly the entry level parts is where it's let down the most. PADI is the most prolific agency and has crafted it's image well. Did you know that to be a 5 star PADI shop it's "Are you exclusively PADI and have you taught more than # divers in the last year?" It's not "How good are you" or similar.
"And I think you should have had to get the student cert for any specialty you want to teach and have verified dives using that cert before becoming an instructor. Probably even should pass an instructor level exam and lead a class under an experienced instructor for that specialty, just like you do for OW instructor." That's how BSAC (British Sub-Aqua Club) do it.
The evidence in this case and the accounting of how she died are absolutely ghoulish. My heart aches for the Mills family as well as the young man who tried to help her. Thank you for covering this and continuing to advocate for changes to the system that ultimately failed Linnea, her family, and friends.
I have close to 450 dives under my belt and still have MUCH education to gain. I was SSI trained in the basics of diving and encouraged to continue to dive with experienced divers. This I did. I have gained much knowledge from a former old timer PADI dive instructor who no longer teaches but is a wealth of information/guidance and he has increased my skill set. I now am taking instruction from a NAUI instructor who is just amazing in his knowledge content and no nonsense approach. If I don’t properly conduct the skills, we do it again on another dive. Love his teaching. Recently I have been taking new OW divers into a shallow lake to build up their skill set confidence - not as an instructor but only as a dive buddy who closely monitors the new diver’s actions and advises corrections. Recently I took a diver in that had NO SKILLS. I finally got frustrated (and worried) and asked about their training. I was told that the diver had 3 hours water time… in a pool, before being certified and hitting the lake. It took a few minutes to get my jaw back into my face. You are SPOT ON James.
Confirms an inner thought I’ve had since starting diving at 16 and being exposed to “instructors” who were less than thorough, prepared and instructional. I always thought the validation of the Divemaster title seemed a little fishy as well. Great video. Agree 100%
You are so well spoken, so much respect for your opinion and knowledge!
Great video James. Thanks a lot for bringing many of these issues out. It is quite shocking specially for newbies like me who aspire to do their dive master and instructor courses in the future.
Glad it was helpful! Dive safe.
Thank you James for calling this out. When I wanted to learn to dive I had heard only of PADI and assumed that they were a reputable training organisation. Subsequently, I know that is not the case. Like everyone in the diving community, I hope that this tragedy brings about change. My deepest condolences to her family.
Thanks for your support! Dive safe.
Back in 2000 I knew a PADI scuba instructor from a cruise ship. She told me that she took the instructor's course (6 weeks) and some upgrades (3 weeks) and then took tourists under water. We dove together and she was skilled and knew a thing or two about diving but I remember my bewilderment when she told me that it took her only nine weeks to make it to instructor level.
PADI is not alone.
I was chambered after negligence from SSI drysuit course.
Sold inappropriate gear by the school to combat the poor instruction in briefing 1.
After I complained I ended up getting sacked from a national bank because my boss was the school owner's nephew.
Both SSI and the bank responded with implications it would be expensive and time consuming to pursue.
I agree 100 percent with your thoughts on this topic. I've been diving for years and to see something like this happen casts negative light on what is safe sport with the proper training and supervision. This is like handing your car keys to an 10 year old, showing them how to start the vehicle and telling them to drive cross country on his own.
Very well delivered James. I'm not a PADI diver (though I am Irish lol).
I hadn't heard of the story before watching this and even I was getting angry as you went through it! Completely understandable to get upset when we lose a member of the world wide dive family especially when such a tragedy could have been avoided.
Let's hope those responsible are held accountable! Though sometimes deep pockets and loose purse strings win over what is right...
Keep making the videos.... Keep 'er lit!
Thanks for sharing! Dive safe.
Hi James, I couldn't agree with everything you've said more, I am a PADI Master Instructor that has been diving for over 30 years and teaching since 2008. I have regular one on one conversations with newly qualified instructors who don't even know the basics of in water diver skills let alone the minefield that is teaching. As for self certification, bang on. I believe that you can not teach it until you learnt, by this I mean that If i want to teach a speciality I MUST first become a student of an instructor that will teach me how to become a diver of that speciality. then once I have completed a qty of dives beyond 10mtrs using that new speciality skill then I would be aloud to join an instructor trainer programme that will allow me to then teach that speciality. This particular stance has been my soap box since i became an instructor and I truly believe that changes are needed. Like you said there are many very good, competent and safe PADI instructors out there and some very good dive centres that don't use the minimum PADI criteria and pre requisites to determine a customers eligibility to join a training course. I manage a dive centre where we are struggling to get dive instructors that can teach RDRP or dive theory because they have only ever used eLearning. For what it's worth I know many other instructors that are members of other dive agencies and this is not just a PADI issue, it's a generic one through out the dive industry I am angered to say. Thanks for your awesome content and passion is power. (imagine a fisted hand banging on heart reaching out to you all in solidarity)
As a former instructor I started as a PADI instructor, then crossed over to NAUI and SDI. NAUI and SDI were tougher than PADI
Once again, great video!!! Feel the same as a peer of you and hope we can see changes for better in the industry and not changes in standards to acomodate legal issues by the agencies!!!
I learn’t to dive in Thailand some 15 years ago, when i got back to the UK i visited my local PADI dive centre wishing to continue something i actually loved doing. The dive shop owner bought me down a peg or two, and he got me to divemaster level, he took no crap, if he wasn’t happy he’d make me do it again and again. I felt totally at ease with his methods, he was by the book, and his other instructors were awesome as well!
Holy crap. I had no idea about the details of this incident. Great video
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It truly is a VERY SAD story about Linnea's passing. May she Rest In Peace. I truly feel your pain as I feel it too. I blame the instructor, the dive shop, and the dive shop's DM's or other Instructors. Obviously they are not organized or trained well enough to prevent other diver safety issues. That being said I am a PADI Course Director. I was also the training director for a company that had over 650 DM's and Instructors. We also booked dive boats to the local islands like Catalina and others off the coast. I have sent over 70 divers to the IE and ALL HAVE PASSED. I train my candidates in the 50 to 70 degree Pacific Ocean along the Southern California Coast. There are waves almost every day from ankle high to 8 feet, sometimes more. I train my candidates for the real world of diving and not just to pass the IE. Some DM's won't even try to become instructors because of the additional liability they would be exposed to. I have seen divers from Florida and other warm water destinations who struggle with diving in SoCal. They aren't trained to use 7mm wetsuits with the correct weighting. They rarely inflate/deflate their BC's because they never had to with a 1.5 mm wetsuit or just a bathing suit. On the other hand the divers we train can dive safely almost everywhere because they understand buoyancy. We teach students ( I teach Instructors and DM's) how to dive properly while wearing a dry suit. Our students ALWAYS do their first dry suit dives in a pool before going to the ocean. I have fired DMs and Instructors who don't follow the PADI standards or don't treat students well. And, after teaching numerous IDC's, know the standards and the changes like the back of my hand. I will stay with PADI and will not let the terrible passing of Linnea affect how I teach from Open Water to Instructor. Let me know of ANY dive training organization that requires 500 dives before being allowed to become an Instructor as I don't know of any. Prior to crossing over I was a NAUI instructor and I saw huge differences in the training.
I have a hard time putting all the weight on PADI. This could have happened with any of the organizations. But it wouldn't have happened at all dive shops. They should never have hired the instructor. I'd like to know why she initially failed.
Agree!!! Coulda been any of them.
“Could have been anyone” isn’t a legal defense in the US and the State of Montana. PADI - in my opinion - is guilty of negligent licensing here.
The big difference with SCUBA versus so many other industries is that when corners are cut, people die. PADI and all scuba shops need to take safety seriously and make it a part of their culture. There is *no room* for error.
@@phonk64 I disagree, open water daylight non cave, in warm water is super safe. When you seek more stuff than that it can get dangerous. But for 99 percent of divers on vacation It’s not really dangerous at all.
@@phonk64 I didn't say it was a legal defense. My point is the organization is incidental. It could just as easily been NAUI, SSI, etc.
The shop used really bad judgement hiring such an unsuitable and inexperienced instructor.
Nah, PADI is the McDonald’s of scuba diving no doubt.
I am a Polish SDI / TDI, SSI and, above all, CMAS diving instructor, in which I have been diving since the beginning of my adventure with this sport in 1997. So I feel empowered to make a small assessment of the situation. In my opinion, in these 25 years, no one has done more to collapse the standards of scuba diving training than PADI has done. This applies to divers, but also to instructors. And lowering those standards
constantly goes on. Fall after fall. How to name the clusters of diving instructors trained in ... the pool? How to name the recent recognition of deep pools in Europe or in Dubai as ... open water? Really? (Apart from the fact that in my opinion it is against EU law.) How do you call the permanent shortening of courses and the number of necessary dives? Now you can see the results of doing so. And the worst part is that it's hard to compete with such mediocrity - people are lazy by nature. They go where it is easier and shorter. Because for PADI, money is always the most important thing, there is no idea or passion in it anymore ... And then such degrees of training are to be recognized by other organizations as equal ...
Facts!! PADI has been a quantity over quality cert for far too long. So glad my home dive shop dropped them so long ago! Couldn’t agree more on the reduction of cert dives that seems to be happening across all agencies. I actually got frustrated a couple years ago when I was tag along on some SSI ice diving cert dives so I could log some more time under the ice and found that they had reduced the minimum required from 4 OW dives to 2. I remember when I got my ice I didn’t feel that 4 was actually enough. There are too many “basic dive instructors” that have no clue about the real effects of task loading and how fast a single minor malfunction can turn into a bad decision and snowball into a tragic loss such as this…sry for the book I’m kinda fired up again….
Great video James, clear and thought out of a very touchy topic.
As a newly certified DM & DSD Leader from ‘the way the world learn to dives’ people, I have to say that having has a couple of friends do their IDC & I.E the exam has seemed easy from that I was told,
I feel the 1 year no retake would be a fantastic rule, and it could be implemented agency wide perhaps.
My own opinion, and regarding my future, I will probably do an IDC / I.E through PADI, as they seem to be the only agency who make you redo the whole IDC & I.E just to teach as a PADI instructor, where as I belive ( but please someone correct me if I’m wrong ) that you can crossover to say SDI / TDI, SSI, RAID, NAUI or another agency without doing their whole Instructor Course, where as if you came from another agency PADI make you do the entire IDC & I.E
For ‘convenience’ sake, PADI is amazing in as much they are the ‘Market leader’ and have a larger percentage of schools and shops, aswell as Independent Instructors
Where as from what I hear, the other agencies actually give a sh!t
Given how much PADI charges, you'd have thought their QA cycle would be second to none. I'm a PADI diver and I'm pretty agnostic to the different dive 'brands' but I've been following this case the whole way through. Accidents happen and we all take our lives into our own, and others', hands when we dive, especially so on training dives. However, virtually every step of that dive was dealt with criminal negligence. If had taken a young woman to dive in cold water, at elevation, with enough weight to sink a whole team of divers, in a dry suit that the student has not been prepped for, with no hose to reduce squeeze/help with buoyancy/insulate and left in the company of of another trainee, instead of instructor, I would be asking for two things:
1) Cuff me up, I deserve the book to be thrown at me (not be so much of a backstabbing worm that the instructor was on attempting to pin it on that poor other student) and
2) I would sue PADI/instructor developer course personally for allowing me to get into that position where I could go so very, very wrong in the worst possible ways. The system did not work for her and it's alarming to think how many others may have slipped through that net.
The whole thing is sickening and the fact that (as far as I can recall) the federal courts tried to charge her as though it was intentional instead of negligent is absurd. Of course she didn't do it intentionally (despite being such a crap show it may as well have been). No one should have the book thrown at them to just be a 'made an example of' but justice for the family and victim is expected, instructors and dive agencies taking note is definitely required, responsibility must be taken.
Condolences and justice for the family.
Thank you for putting this out there. I live in Missoula and thought Gull Diving was a joke in the very few times I had dealings with them. Like you I hope PADI is finally held accountable-it is amazing that PADI has not caused more deaths-I think that any diver who has been around and witnessed the "instruction" at PADI resorts and dive shops would, like me, have lots of tales to tell.
Excellent video! I've been diving for only a couple of years with about 20 dives logged. And I've been fortunate to have had two really competent PADI instructors. They always emphasized erring on the side of caution, exercised what I considered general common sense (I'm 63, so I know what that looks like), and stressed practicing within one's limitations as the key to safety and proficiency. The situation with PADI reminds me of the world of martial arts. I'm a second-degree black belt in traditional Okinawan karate with over 15 years of training from a sensei with over 40 years. Much of that world (industry?) has no regulation; pretty much anyone can call himself a master of a particular art. Krav Maga, supposedly overseen by various organizations, is especially corrupt, because anyone who merely completes a course can become an instructor. And people get injured. I agree with you that PADI, the Montana facility, and the "instructor" should be held civilly liable, and the personnel in Montana be criminally convicted of manslaughter. I appreciate your knowledge and tips from all your videos and am sorry I don't live in Florida. I'd love to have you as my in-water mentor.
Thank you for being passionate and angry about this. It sucks and talking about it sucks, but it shows there are people who care about safety and standards. New divers who have found your channel need to know what to look for in an instructor, what questions to ask, and know that there are instructors who care about them. So thank you.
Wow, so much to digest here. I am a PADI instructor. I trained under a world class trainer. (Brilsky) at Pro Dive in Ft Lauderdale. I the time of my training I had thousands of dives. My training was quite thorough. I was very comprehensive. I am also a US Sailing Cruising instructor and a 100 ton Master Captain and an airplane pilot. So no stranger to developed life and death skills. What I liked about PADI was that I could work independently. I did not have to work for a shop. I ran my own dive/sail charter vacation business in the Caribbean from my own sailboat, ranging from the VI’s through to Panama Caribbean and Pacific. PADI worked for me. I felt my training rigorous and through. My training was in 1988. So maybe much different from now.
I agree about the self specialty training. Having done hundreds of wreak and cavern dives I did offer them as specialties. I have NEVER dove with a drysuit and would never train someone with first getting training myself. I have led thousands of dives and taught hundreds of courses. When I reached my late sixties, my life style changed and I did little diving. PADI continually tried to get me to re activate my teaching status up through my mid seventies. Finally requiring me to re train. Ha ha right. There were years in there that I could have been easily re instated to teaching status with little more than money and insurance. After a few more years just quick refresher. NO WAY was I physically qualified to teach or dive master. Didn’t go for it. I thought it strange that I could have gotten back into it that easily. But as I said. I have no complaints on how I was trained. I started diving as a teenager before certification was even a thing. I trained for instructor in my forties so had as I said thousands of dives of all kinds, before becoming an instructor. except extreme cold water/ drysuit.
Sounds like people screwed up here. I think competing agencies love to bash PADI. Some warranted, some not. The comment on “she should be cutting hair” and little to no chance of ever re taking a failed exam in not a realistic or professional attitude. Again, let’s not get too “holier that thou” here. Let’s just improve safety and not build ourselves up by putting other down. I do agree with much of what you say here.
I completely understand. It’s unreal what passes for acceptable in many fields. I’m a truck driver and went to school on 2005 to learn and was horrified at what was allowed to pass and get a CDL.
I obtained my original open water w PADI and I wasn’t impressed. I’m now learning my advanced classes w NAUI. So far I’m happier with what I’m seeing.
This is a horrendous accident and as someone looking to start my open water soon I will definitely be following all your advice on interviewing my instructor very thoroughly. Thanks for all your great advice James. This is so sad.
Most excellent decision! And once you get your cert card, find some responsible old times and dive frequently with them. Emulate their equipment (within the confines of your budget), and NEVER allow yourself to be pushed beyond your hut feelings! Hope to dive with you someday!
Whoops…. That should have said “timers”.
Wow! Thank you for that passionate summary. 1st I am a low-time (17 dives) diver. I wasn't certified under PADI, nor is my dive center a PADI dive center. I cannot imagine that set of circumstances.
As for the way you started. I am a School Bus Driver. I remember the state-required 40-hour training class after I had my DMV license, which started with our reading NTSB Accident Reports for school bus accidents. It set the tone for what our job was going to be.
By the way, there is a large amount of similarity between Diving and School Bus Driving. The core of both is Risk Management. Divers/Drivers, Equipment, Environmental, and instantaneous risks when driving or diving. Always look for the risks and have a way out.
Drove a School Bus myself many years ago. 40 years later, I still occasionally wake up from a nightmare about driving a school bus full of kids over a steep drop, because of icy roads.
Hopefully your company and School district have your back.
Love you mate, a lot to think about here. Thanks for bringing this all to our attentions. I’m hoping to do my DM certification this fall and would definitely like it to be as challenging as possible so I can be very experienced, not looking for an easy route. I’m planning to do it in Thailand as I am in Asia currently. I hope I can find a good club with good morals that will challenge me and not just let me get licensed willy nilly. This kind of situation will definitely influence my choice. I’ve been diving for 12+ years and diving safety is very important to me. Thanks again. Been watching your videos for some time now, very informative!
Taking different dive courses is only one aspect of "experience." You have a responsibility to yourself to do more dives to gain experience.
Such an incredibly informed, insightful and enlightening assessment of the big picture here. As a PADI certified OW diver, albeit with only 100+ dives under my belt, I could not agree more about the ease of meeting PADI’s certification standards. The quality of my training was 100% dependent on the quality of my instructors. Fortunately, mine were excellent. You could not skate through their classes. When I first eat about Linnea Mills horrifically tragic death, I was appalled. And then I read the legal documents pertaining to the lawsuit. Honestly, I had to read them all three times before I could believe I was not misreading them. Such gross incompetence, negligence and malfeasance on the part of everyone in whose hands Ms. Mills placed her life. From my perspective, this tragedy can be attributed to four entities: 30z PADI, 30% Dive Shop, 30% Instructor and 10% the sadly naive Student. I fault the Student only because I firmly believe that when in such a setting someone tells you to do something that you know you are not prepared to do YOU have the responsibility to speak up for yourself definitively. Just say no. As for damages, I would assign treble if not higher penalties for the $12 Million lawsuit to the three 30 percenters and $1 to the Student’s estate. And I would close the Shop forever, ban the owners from the industry and prohibit PADI from certifying students and instructors for one year. As for comments on the original post, if you are not familiar with the details of this incident, through original (source) material, I suggest not commenting. Show respect for Linnea Mills by doing your homework before jumping into the water.
Watched this, then googled the accident and had to stop reading as I got so angry and upset. I think your comments were spot on. Very distressing accident. We dived in Malta, my daughter nearly passed out at 34m buddying with me but was rescued, towed to the shore and had a full recovery (oxygen as soon as she got to the van)- you're bang on with one of your other vids (you pick an instructor not a certification scheme). I just cannot believe that this has been allowed to happen in 2019. Thank you.
Spot on James. Thanks for putting this out there in order to improve the dive community. Safety first😎
I understand your passion and anger. I have trained beach lifeguards and beach lifeguard trainers in the North Sea and in the Red Sea. There are vast differences and whereas I wouldn't be too worried about someone trained to my standards in the North Sea working in the Red Sea there is no way the reverse should happen without further training. Keep up the good work.
I am padi advanced certified and I must admit that my second stage certification was done with 0 professionalism! Thankfully your videos are here to remind me of safety and best practices. Padi is clearly too easy
I'm a 4 star CMAS Belgian diver with about 370 dives starting to pass an assistant instructor course. This case was baffling to me! Even though I'm not an instructor yet I have guided many buddies through their first dry suit dives. An instructor not knowing the importance of a drysuit inflator hose is just insane to me. This signifies that the persons in charge had zero experience with diving a drysuit themselves. Plus, how is your nr 6 dive after only tropical dives any point to start with a drysuit already?
OW dive #1 for me was in a drysuit. Joys of diving in and around the UK.
Well Said Well Done!!!!!
When I started diving in 1986 under FAUI, the training was far more rigorous both in terms of practice and theory. Of course the rec diving industry was far more restricted but the quality of qualified open water divers was much better and first aid/rescue was one of the first courses learnt.
Now as Jamesy said correctly so many instructors go from zero to hero that should not be allowed to instruct others.
I have had a fatality on a dive and the exact thing Jamesy is saying in this clip was the cause of the lass on my eventful dive dying from embolism.
The case development is tragic and the agency's certification processes you described are harrowing. I do however have my doubts on a flat 500 dive entry requirement: First off, logging dives is far from a secure form of documentation: Forgery is way too easy and I doubt that there is a process in any agency to validate them (f.e. by calling dive centers or other divers to confirm whether a dive was actually done as logged)... -there is, in fact, neither a standardized logbook form, nor legal sanction for falsification. This is an industry where digital connectivity for cross-validation has always been challenging. Second, as you correctly pointed out, dive environments are extremely heterogenous: So in an extreme example what is the experience foundation to have dived 500 times in the same lake with the same buddy? Third, achieving 500 dives is a sizeable investment if done honestly. Definitely a nice-to-have, but is it didactically and socially valuable to only have dive instructors of more affluent background? Being a (recreational) dive instructor is not exactly the most financially rewarding occupation, and by increasing entry limits from a financial perspective, such measure might just increase scarcity -in poorer countries, this might even keep experienced locals away from the occupation that would otherwise meet qualifications. And besides knowing local dive sites and customs, someone of poorer background might give better insights on gear maintenance and careful resource conservation because they are personally more exposed to financial risk.
By all means, instructors should meet the requirements on their dive competence skillset (both in normal operations and in emergency procedures), theoretical basis, and lastly didactic soft skills to actually be convey all this knowledge to different student demographics (probably especially for children divers, learning-impaired, and for foreign-language instruction scenarios). Maybe a more targeted and definitely a verifiable differentiation of instructor training and specialization is needed.
I wondered if 500 was realistic too. Maybe that would be best. I don't know. While I certainly understand that going from never been underwater to instructor in a couple of months is crazy, I'd be concerned that 500 is a big enough barrier to entry that it might lead to the sport dying off for lack of instructors. It takes quite a commitment of both time and money to get to that number and many excellent instructors we have today might have been scared off by it. I like the idea of a minimum number, and I think that number should be more than 100, but my gut says 500 is too high. I'm not an instructor, but after about 400 dives, I'd feel more than comfortable enough to pursue an instructor certification if I wanted to work as a dive professional. I would have said the same at 250 or 300 dives.
another point - during my Padi course my dive buddy was the 14-year-old daughter of someone I worked with - we had a snorkeling lake dive in a lake full of weeds just under the surface - I had not had any sleep since the morning before and had worked through the entire night - I was talked into using jet fins for this dive with never using them before - I had negative bouncy to the point I could enter the water down the keys and drop like a rock with full dive gear including BC but no wetsuit - I could not tread water and had to side or breast stroke to stay on the surface - turns out I could not push the fins and the Padi instructor would not delay the class 30 min for me to change fins - he also never noticed I was in extreme trouble during the entire course - as a kid in Chicago all my swimming was underwater since I could not swim on the surface and that is how I survived this I had been in trouble many times before - there was a girl that die in one of these lakes during her course when she got separated from the class and tangled in the weeks -
I have all my dives via padi instruction and it never failed me . I dive with good boyancy and allways check everything before , during and after every dive ( like my instructers always told me to do) . I have been involved in resques and saved some swimmers and some divers to , and i have to give credit to my dive instructers and the manuals of this orginisation . ( sorry my english is off not my native language) . But i know if a group or orginisation grows to big you can and will get problems and that is not only with padi that is for every big dive company . In the Netherlands padi is strickt and gives you good classes . But in the caribbean it is light and it's all about the money . Where i live right now i got angry at some dive shops here about the way they do things ( others are good i give them that) . So to be honest it's not padi who does this . It's the person who did the course right but after completing the dive specialty or complete course they just don't care anymore , it's like a driving licience once you get it , it's up to you . And alot of people can't handle this responcebility. If i have not been in a dive for a while i go through my manuals from padi and i go to a dive shop to do a refresh dive ( i don't realy need it but just to be safe if i forgot something) and i go diving again. I have looked into other dive orginisations and find most realy to " gun ho " about everything . It's good to get good classes and i love that , it's another thing if they pretend to be militairy . So that makes me not want to join the other groups . But that is personal and ok . In my mind in every big dive group there come some sh!tty dive instructers so now and again . And to be honest can't realy blame it on the orginisation . It's on the indivitual who was the instructer or the diver. This incident should not have happend and could have been avoided . All the things this instructer did wrong is on the instructer alone for in class and the manuals it's repeated again and again how to do it right. I know people will hate me for this text but that is how it always goes . The " my side is better than your side" never seems to stop to surprice me . Padi is to big and with it i am sorry to say come more idiots into the world of diving but alot of good people get into this world via padi so how do we fix a good working dive machine that has faulty people so now and again that go by the book during the instructions and classes but after go rogue ?
I performed underwater recovery for 20 years and also conducted dive accident investigation in New England. I was part of an investigation team that looked into a dive accident that included 5 PADI certified Dive Rescue divers. They were diving the wreck of the Chester Polling. 90' to deck 120' to bottom. One diver seperated and was found sitting on the deck without his regulator. One guy came to check on him and replaced his regulator and inflated his vest and grabbed the injured and took him to the down line. He was struggling to get him to the surface. His fellow divers showed up and saw what was going on. They came to assist. They all inflated their vests as well as the injured diver. One diver thought this was wrong and let go and started to shoot for surface. He dumped his vest and dove down to a lower depth and start a slow ascent. One of the divers decided to drop the injured weight belt which got the group going to the surface at a rate to quick.
The conclusion is that if you could do something wrong they did it.
I have no faith in any PADI certifications. They are out to make money period. They have no concern about dive safety.
Hi James. You are so RIGHT. As a master instructor and IDC staff instructor I totally agree with you. Keep up the great work
Thanks for your support! Dive safe.
Wow have not heard of this tragic loss. I’m a retired PADI Master Instuctor having taught over 14 years. I first started diving thru NAUI back in the early 70’s and the training back then was very tough and not meant to just get you a card. Ive seen the part about an instructor can get a card to teach just about anything with out really knowing how to teach it which is absolutely a tearable idea. I could go on and on but wont at this time. As an Instructor I took it very seriously and continued to learn as much about all aspects of diving as possible learning mixed gas diving etc. But just because I certified in it doesn’t mean I would be good at teaching it. Neither myself or the store I taught out of would have let this young lady dive with a dry suit unless she was a certified dry suit diver plus has she ever dived in this kind of environment. All of my instruction was in the Pacific NW in cold water. ITs so much different than warm water. All of my Divemasters and AI’s who were highly trained and competent would never have let her bad equipment slip past them. I’m just speechless as to how this could have happened. The store should have stopped it right up front and required her to have a dry suit cert end of story. Not sure how she got her Divemaster card before the IE….. My heart goes out to the family
I got my basic open water certification with PADI and my instructor was excellent. Safety was his priority and he kept drilling our group of three on out of air situations etc., gave us a lot of advice that I'm sure is not within this program. I had a feeling that he was doing much more than required by the PADI program, so I consider myself very lucky to have practised with him. Now I want to do advanced open water in Thailand next month. I've read tons of reviews of PADI schools there and I have to say that numerous negative reviews online remind me of things I observed when I had a chance to see some other diving groups at the lake I was trained in. I'm sure I saw a group where the instructor skipped (=forgot) buddy checks prior to descent. Based on what I've found out, read and heard, I was only able to find *one* PADI school out of quite a few within a certain area of Thailand that I would like to proceed with. I'll still be vigilant and if I see they don't prioritize safety, I'll walk away.
I agree with everything you said. Do you feel other training agencies do a better job than PADI does at QA and certifying instructors? I'm not sure I think this is a PADI issue as much as an 'all agencies' problem.
James, I totally agree with you 100%. I took a a padi ow course in Okinawa in the early 90’s. The class size was around 8 or 10 people. Some of them were only going to be there a few days and I feel that the instructor just rushed us through the training to pass the students that were there for only a few days. The class room session was pretty easy, and the pool sessions could have been longer so you were comfortable doing the skills. I did not finish the open water portion because I extended too much energy trying to climb down rock steps into the Pacific Ocean. PADI seems to care about money coming in from students, not providing quality service. Even if I have to pay more somewhere else, I would pefer quality service.
I be seen Padi suspended, retrain and expel instructors and dive shops for failing to teach to Padi standards. I’ve been a Padi Pro for decades, there’s good shops , bad shops ,good instructors and bad instructors. Through this is a tragedy, and I’m appalled at all the red flags that happened in this incident.
But this is entirely the point; there shouldn't BE bad shops and bad instructors, PADI QA should weed them out before they can be accredited so they can't kill people. You'd never hear anyone saying the same thing about there being good and bad GUE instructors, for example. I just think it's a really sad state of affairs.
The “on their knees” comment had me in stitches 😂 Another step they could be taken to ensure instructors are truest proficient is to have a third party oversee certification to ensure compliance. I agree that the number of dives to be a divemaster or instructor is insanely low. It shows too on some dives I’ve been on when I had better trim and buoyancy than the divemaster who kept crashing the reef. You said instructors should only teach in conditions they’re comfortable in, but if someone is inexperienced they may be unaware that they shouldn’t have the confidence that they feel. Human factors.
I've seen two, recently certified divemasters, that were so proud of the accomplishment, but had terrible buoyancy and never a thought entered their minds that maybe, just maybe, they needed more experience first. Wonder if the instructor even discussed this aspect with them?
@@ScubaSteveCanada kind of like the fact I’m about to “technically” meet requirements for master diver (a useless marketing level no matter the agency). Even in my mind 50 dives and a couple of specialties doesn’t mean a thing. I think what so many people miss is the fact that the requirements are MINIMUMS. The instructors training don’t exactly make a ton of money either, so it makes sense that they feel pressure to get as many people through training as possible.
I was assigned the most incompetent and unqualified dive instructor to do my AOW (with 25 dives on my log). It was SO unbelievably bad I ended up cancelling until I found a qualified instructor. I was supposed to let this small guy who could barely speak English take me on a deep dive, night dive and more although he got east and west mixed up, had terrible vision and couldn’t wear contact lenses and didn’t teach us anything other than the agenda for the course… it seems like PADI gives certifications like they’re candy and it’s terrifying 😰
Thank you. Praying God will comfort those who are grieving this sad and senseless tragedy. Confident that God will not fail to judge the negligence that caused this untimely death.
Humbled by the severe consequences and possibilities for harm or death.
Due to school of Hard Knocks experience and wise videos like this, I'm learning that in seeking to become an instructor, I'm taking on a GREAT responsibility of becoming not a "certified" instructor, but a truly QUALIFIED one. You have impacted me in a most important way.
As a 70 year old diving instructor from the Netherlands I completely agree with you. The lack of experience of the average instructor is shocking. The same goes for the amateur diver. Only a few dives to obtain the OW certificate is seriously insufficient to be able to function as an independent diver. And then I'm not even talking about the physical fitness and overweight of the current generation.....It's all about money in the end.
@@billbrooke4355 SSI requires 24 logged dives for AOW. After that, you should really push to 50 or more open water dives prior to pursuing any kind of specialty diving. All of these agencies use somewhat of an honor system, the problem is that it's being abused. A lot of this can be fixed by actually checking credentials. "You dove 50 times with the same guy" (I have done this), "If I pick up the phone and call your dive buddy will he confirm?" etc.
this case is heartbreaking. the absolute gross negligence of the instructor is baffling to me, as well as the poor treatment of her students (ignoring Linnea when she was in distress, not supervising her students' set up of gear and actions once they were in the water, ignoring the 14 year old's anxiety/discomfort during her dry suit training, the list goes on). the most painful part is that there were so many places where this could have been prevented if any of the people involved in this had any common sense.
the thing is, i'm a 17 year old girl and i just got my AOW certification about a month ago. i love diving, it's one of the things i'm most passionate about and it's crushing that a teenage girl who was on her way to having that same passion that everyone here has had her life taken away from her by the horrific negligence displayed by the instructor and dive shop. it's fucking disgusting
Thank you so very much as always! One question. I've done course with PADI as well as with SSI. Is there any difference in the QM? Or is it just the same dump packed in different boxes? I'm not an instructor of any kind. I just finished my padi rescuedivercourse.
And while I am not quite ready to drink the kool-aid and travel from ND to FL to take a GUE course, it’s becoming more and more tempting. As a person who is a former trainer in the law enforcement community for 9 years, was a department chair for a college, holds a masters in adult teaching and learning and currently a trainer in industry - I am pretty impressed by GUEs training standards both for students AND instructors (at least what I have been able to find online about them.). Unfortunately PADI is really the only game in my area. The dive instructors I know are top notch people, and I hope that they are able to weather this and make some decisions that positively impact diving in my area. I have my PADI OW/AOW/RESCUE/EO2 through these guys and haven’t been dissatisfied at all, and have considered going the instructor route, but I don’t dive enough the way it is.
James, there is a time and place to be righteously upset and speak your mind - and this was it. And you nailed it. I would be upset if you weren’t pissed off. If I ever make it to Florida, I’d dive with ya!
I too am from ND. Just getting into the diving universe. There is only one place in my area that does training. I believe they are teaching PADI. I've heard they are pretty good. When I read about the Montana incident, I couldn't believe they didn't charge the school. What happened to checking your equipment? I don't get it..
@@billbrooke4355 I totally agree. Pure negligence on both school and instructor. You would think they would have explained everything about a dry-dive suit and the dangers of faulty equipment.
i been a diver since 1992. o was a Divemaster for a few years before I got my PADI Instructor certification in 1996. i also had the opportunity to work with NAUI, SSI, BSAC over my years as an Instructor. Back then it was always safety safety safety! but then in 1998, I found that Scuba instructors were popping up like crazy. some went from Divemaster to Instructor within months. Many didn't know how to fill a tank or even read the weather. Even as a Divemaster role they gave a very bad pre dive briefing. Instructors were like products on a conveyor belt being produced on a mass scale. Then it started, too many instructors in the market with goals to run dive courses. Flood the market and you find cost cutting and rules being bent which leads to safety rules broken. i finally walk away from the industry and watched it decline. Then the case of deaths began.
So here today we see a case where a death that could have easily been avoided. its sad to hear this news. i dive and taught it out of passion. i was a strict instructor and did it the old school way! safety safety safety. As i was once told by my course director, " would you allow your loved one to be taught by this instructor"? Thus, as an instructor, people place they trust in you thus you have to be responsible and be ready with sufficient knowledge and training. i will not teach an open water diver in cold water conditions that i have not been trained and certified in. just as I would not drive an 18 wheeler truck on the road without sufficient training, knowledge and certification. Negligence is no excuse!
James I totally understand your frustration. It really is the worst dive Tragedy I ever herd! I hate when people call it a dive accident, I was no accident! It was total disregard of another persons life. Thank you for sharing the name of the dive Company, they need to be shut down!
Thanks for sharing!
@DiversReady -- James, these are very passionate words in view of a big tragedy. I agree completely with (a) the interval requirement of at least one year after a failed instructor exam attempt, (b) with the requirement to have at least 500 dives before being able to become an instructor, and (c) with the requirement that instructors have to be familiar with the conditions they teach in, before they do so. I have heard that someone can become a PADI instructor with 100 or less dives. That is outright ridiculous. Agencies should have a requirement (as with the agency that I trained with) to have a dedicated number of open water dives before even taking on the next-level course, even below instructor level. Plus, basic drysuit operation can and should be taught in a pool before going into the open water.
It's a pretty hard thing to want to comment on this. I am a ex-PADI MSDT instructor and I have seen some of the things mentioned in this video first hand. First of all, our IDC. 5 of us went through our IDC, and 3 of us had an amazing course director. The other 2 did not and it showed. We felt they may be AOW certified at best. Of course, they passed their IDC. Afterwards, I had done some OW classes and I was then automatically signed off to teach 7 other specialties without ever having taught those specialties before. I was certainly familiar with them and had a lot of experience with things like dry suit diving, night diving.. yes, wreck diving but I had virtually no experience with deep diving at the time as an example. I've certainly rectified that as I've moved my personal diving into tech diving with a rebreather. I'd feel comfortable with it now, but certainly not 20 years ago when I was handed the magic card. I also love that PADI sent me a 10 year member certificate... like I was dumb enough to give them money for 10 years so that deserves a certificate.
I would also advocate for some substantial changes industry wide, as mentioned in the video. I've seen just as bad SSI, NAUI, SDI and even TDI instructors. PADI is definitely not unique in certifying bad instructors to teach. I have not taken a GUE course, and the IANTD courses I have taken have been awesome BUT, the instructor was awesome! Was it the course, or the instructor? I'd wager it was the instructor. So industry changes: Definitely!
The one topic people hammer on this tragedy is the dry suit, but Montana is not sea level either. As a matter of fact, Lake McDonald is 3,153'. Diving at altitude is a whole other beast and I'm wondering if this person acting as an instructor was remotely qualified to even be where they were.
I do think about teaching again one day, but these nightmare stories really put me off.
I completely agree with you, I have been a PADI instructor fot almost 30 years, since 1993, I did my IDC/IE in South East Diving Institute (SEDI) Fort Pierce, FL, and before that I was a diver for 10 years, I got my open water certification in january 1983, and what I see what the IDC are today is a yoke. I have seen people becoming instructors from cero in 6 month, even less. What kind of expirience can you get in that time.
Having been diving since 1995 and I am a BSAC and PADI Instructor .There are so many things that went wrong and resulted in this fatal incident. Everything you mentioned I totally agree with. What I am amazed at is that it happened in the US. I have seen some shocking Instructors and Dive Centers who employ them in Asia. Unfortunately they make it very hard to report Instructors and also Dive Centers, which I have done in the past. From what I have experienced many Instructors won't report incidents as they lose the low paid job. I can only hope after this case the the industry becomes safer for everyone
Great job James. I agree with everything you said about this whole tragic event. My LDS was bought by a new owner and first thing he did was drop PADI. I would love to get another Federal prosecutor to look at this case as well, because it is staggering that no one was charged. I am sure the first question PADI lawyers will be asking of potential jurors is “Are you, or have you ever taken a PADI course and are you a certified diver?” They will be first to be kicked off jury-sadly. I think most people who subscribe to your channel are just as annoyed about what went in with this case from start to finish. I know I was pretty pissed 😤 when I first read the account t as to what happened.
I’ve did only about a 20 dives, and pretty surprised that I saw first emergency on about my 10th time diving, a few dives later our dive master separated from us and lost his/her group of divers which was only 4 people.
Lots of dive masters are just too immature and incompetent to be responsible for other peoples lives.
On another occasion a young girl dive master was assuring a couple that she will issue them their certificate for open diver as they were ( according to what I heard them saying) trying to get certified for almost a year. They were just dangerous as soon as they were submerged in only 25 feet of water they would slam down the bottom and then surface all the way up.
If that’s how things go in diving and I can judge just by my 20 dives , I could see how people can die easily on the 60 feet dives with low vis and string current that I participated.
Thanks for speaking up and bringing awareness. It should be taken way more seriously!
So... more and more i feel like you should always think like a solo diver. I mean, you should always look out for thoses around you, but never feel completely reliant on the people around you. This is of course not entirely possible on your open water course, but after that it's a tricky thing diving with strangers. It takes awhile to develope trust. Choosing instructors is more important than choosing an agency i think.
I’ve seen just the opposite during my initial training with PADI. My PADI instructors actually threw a student out of the class and refused to certify him because the student refused to pay attention during the class. The student was dangerous. Not only did they throw the student out of the class, but they immediately reported that student to PADI because the student bragged that he would just get himself certified at another PADI shop. Even as a student, you must understand that there’s going to be times when nobody is going to be paying any attention to what you are doing. Instructors will have to pay attention to other students as well. So as a scuba diver, you need to pay attention to your own surroundings as well as the gear that you are using. My personal equipment has been fully customized for solo diving. It has built in redundancies in every area. Even when you’re diving with a buddy, that buddy isn’t going to be concentrating on you as he or she is also on the dive to see their surroundings just as you are. During roughly 90% of the time that you’re in the water on every dive you’ll actually have nobody checking on you. Just as you won’t be spending your entire time on a dive checking on your dive buddy. If you did, the dive itself would become completely pointless. I cannot over emphasize the importance of having equipment that’s several steps above the most basic equipment setup displayed in your local dive shops. Spend the money and buy the absolute best equipment you can afford. And have backups in case of a failure. Most importantly, TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN LIFE.
I had no idea how few logged dives were required to become a padi instructor!! I consider myself a beginner and I’m more than halfway there, wtf.
Maybe that explains how my AOW instructor managed to straight up lose me during a dive (I was having an issue but he was off with friends), and also why he dismissively told me “it’s called a headache” when I had an EXTREMELY painful reverse block…
He also definitely self-certified his specialties because he didn’t know shit about any of them and it felt like such a scam. And I finally know why.
Thank you for your enlightening video and keeping up with this case. Had to turn away from it myself because of how much it upset me.
Another great video James. Having passed the IE recently I share the viewpoint that this should be a much more stringent testing environment and the vetting more discerning. I watched as clearly failing candidates passed and being concerned for their future students.
That said, I have trained with NAUI, RAID and PADI - frankly its hard to tell them apart in terms of quality. Why is your rage focused at PADI in particular? If its the post incident handling, I fully get that.
@@billbrooke4355 Well, yes I hear that. But at the same time, do we think this is a PADI thing specifically or is this an industry wide issue? I don't believe other trading agencies do things in a hugely different way to PADI. Although allowing this person to continue teaching was a bit much. I've been through a few training agencies and really don't see a difference aside from PADI being very expensive and doing a better job at marketing themselves to customers. I should Google to see if other agencies have put out any statements related to this incident. Stand by for another comment if I find anything.
I've been a diver since 1984 and I totally agree with your video - PADI today is a JOKE! The standards I was held to in 1984 were leaps and bounds more rigorous than the course my kids took a few years ago. I hope PADI is held to account and decided to revise their training - it will save lives. However, I'm also a lawyer, and as any lawyer will tell you, a civil case only awards damages - it does not force a copy to change anything it does. PADI will only change if the business case for "changing" makes sense - something one lawsuit is unlikely to do. I'm sure PADI had plenty of insurance (and re-insurance) and even if the jury awards 12 million dollars it might not be enough to force them to change their business model.
Hello, I find it very interesting what you said about the padi ie. My question is, is there an agency that has higher standards regarding their instructors exams? Is SSI or SDI any better? I'm now becoming a divemaster, and looking to become an instructor. Do I just look for a great course director or does the agency matter? In that case what agency? Thanks for sharing all your experiences and knowledge. Cheers
Hello James, I've been away for a while and am just now hearing of this awful tragedy. I feel the same disgust you do. I feel the dive instructor and dive shop should be directly charged with this case criminally and that it would FORCE Padi to take actions so this doesn't happen again. This makes me feel shamed as a Padi diver. I feel there needs to be stricter learning requirements as all agencies agree that scuba equipment is LIFE SUPPORT equipment. Thanks for getting this out.
FINALLY!!!! I was angry when it happened and even more angry when they were “lacking evidence.” THANK YOU FOR SHARING THIS. It’s some of the best news I’ve heard in awhile that they’ll finally face fucking charges. There is no reason at all Linnea should be gone from this world.
@@billbrooke4355 If you read the full legal complaint filing, you will find out WAY more about the case; after reading it, I absolutely felt/feel they SHOULD and *hopefully* WILL be convicted of charges. Someone needs to be held accountable.
@@billbrooke4355 I’m not sure why RUclips keeps deleting my replies, unless the video poster is deleting them! 3rd time is a charm or I give up 😂
Essentially, what my previous posts included is:
The dive computers of Linnea, Seth and Deb were released after Gull Dive hid these from the investigation- they turned them over a few days ago, meaning they kept this to themselves for over 2 years!! The NPS investigators, US attorney’s office, and others asked for this from the start, so I hope there are charges for “tampering with evidence” at the very minimum, though hiding key information may be a sign of known guilt from Deb/Seth/Gull?
In addition, Gull did not have Linnea sign a liability release, so I don’t understand how or why Gull and/or PADI won’t be held liable.
Lastly, PADI says that Gull Dive wasn’t active, but Deb and Gull were able to issue diver cert cards AFTER this tragic event. If they were not active, how in the hell would they be able to certify/stamp a card with PADI’s name on it?
Between all of this (and more included in the complaint filing), I really hope someone is actually held accountable. Everything in the filing shows this was easily avoidable.
Post from Linnea’s mother on the dive computers:
m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=5901887613171872&id=100000520759165
Really great video. I saw a video about this case a while ago and couldn't believe what happened. I share your anger. No instructor should have done this. No diver who's ever used a dry suit would have done this. There needs to be consequences.
Thanks for sharing! Dive safe.
I just completed my padi online portion yesterday. Going to rely on personal recommendations when I choose the in-person training.
All valid points, TY for your passion.
Thanks for watching!