Pros and cons of LFP vs cobalt batteries explained
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- Опубликовано: 28 янв 2023
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100% charging and battery chemistry
LFP and NCM refer to the chemical composition of the cathode. This is where the lithium ions go when the battery is discharged. When charging the battery, the li-ions leave the cathode to go to the anode. LFP and NCM are both 3D structures in which the li-ions can sit. The difference is in the 'density' of the structure.
NCM is a layered structure. You can think of it as a high-rise building with only floors and no walls. The li-ions between the floors need to keep the structure, they are acting as walls or studs themselves. We just saw that charging means the li-ions leave the cathode. The more li-ions leave, the more unstable the whole structure becomes, as there are fewer li-ions to keep the floors up. If all li-ions would leave, the floors would collapse and the battery is 'kaput'. At high SoC, the cathode may become slightly unstable and that can cause 'cracks in the floors' (mechanical damage).
LFP is an olivine structure. You can think of it as a high-rise building with floors and walls from front to back (but not from left to right). Basically, it's a lot of tubes stacked upon each other. The li-ions don't need to hold up the floor, the structure is inherently stable. Even if all the li-ions leave while charging, the structure will hold. So from a chemical point of view, it's perfectly safe to charge LFP to 100%.
By the way, you can see now why NCM is lighter (no walls in the structure) and charges faster (li-ions can move freely in 2 directions between the floors, instead of 1 by 1 through tiny tubes).
100% charging and degradation
There are several degradation mechanisms, but two of the more important ones (SEI layer growth and lithium plating) occur at the anode. Since LFP and NCM both use graphite anodes usually, these mechanisms occur in either type of battery.
Lithium plating is usually the mechanism associated with degradation due to high SoC. While a battery charges, li-ions need to attach themselves to the graphite. This is called intercalation. Sometimes however li-ions react with the environment and form a solid lithium layer on the graphite. This is called plating. Plating is irreversible. Under normal circumstances, intercalation goes much quicker than plating, so that's good.
However, sometimes li-ions have a hard time finding a spot on the graphite and that's when plating might occur. This difficulty in finding a spot on the graphite can occur due to many circumstances. For instance, because a lot of li-ions try to find a spot at the same time (very fast charging) or when there are very few spots left (high SoC). When plating occurs, li-ions are removed from the active battery chemistry and so it degrades the capacity.
One of the most important functions of the BMS is preventing lithium plating. It's now clear why charging throttles at high SoC: many li-ions approaching the anode with very few spots left is a recipe for disaster.
Hope this helps...
Thank you for the best description of LFP vs NCM I've seen after weeks of searching. That was a fantastic read.
this is awesome! so how does temperature come into this? just faster chemical reaction?
@@MrBwSBwS Thanks, but I can't take credit for the high-rise building analogy. I heard it a long time ago and it's very helpful to understand the differences between the chemistries.
@@alliao82 I know that charging at low battery temp increases the chance that lithium plating might occur. But I don't know why that is.
I also know that charging at high battery temp increases the chance that the other important degradation mechanism (SEI layer growth) might occur. So temperature control is essential while charging.
@@leobreevoort9151 huh never knew about low temp charging I guess that's why so many said they used supercharger exclusively and still didn't suffer major degradation, too bad the onboard computer don't do such with 3rd party chargers
Cobalt is also used extensively for refining petroleum, but people complaining about its use in batteries tend to ignore that inconvenient fact.
something that bothers me. when i tell people i am vegan (i try to avoid that topic usually) to many people this seems to be an invitation to analyse my behaviour and point out why certain aspects are not sustainable etc.
It is used as a catalyst to remove sulphur from the oil, so it's used over and over and is very recyclable so actually the overall usage of cobalt in the petroleum industry is actually a very small fraction of the overall global usage of cobalt - the vast bulk goes to batteries. There are many issues with the use of fossil fuel, and the cobalt argument is just a tiny one and not the best one to use.
We're better off moving to EV's but sadly, this also mean extensive use of cobalt (batteries does consume the largest amount of cobalt than any other industries by far). It's not exclusive to just cars though - there's laptops, mobile phones, power banks etc etc that all use cobalt. For anyone to criticise the use of cobalt - point out their phone that they're likely to have, there's cobalt in the battery...At least we actually have cobalt free batteries available now with LFP even if it's not the best, and I'm sure we eventually will find better going forward.
It's disgusting that governments etc aren't doing more to combat child labour - ie going against companies that enable the industry etc instead of taking steps to eliminate child labour. It can be done.
@@byddar Hello, do you want these kids to starve because you want to combat child labour? They are working to feed themself and their families. I understand them because I've been there. I grew up in a third world country and I worked when I was 8 years old. I want to provide food and water so I chose to work. And here I am well and alive, I still finished my education even though i was a little later than regular full time student.
You people that grew up with food on your plate 3 times a day cannot seem to understand.
@Triplee Faail even here in Europe 80 years ago kids had to work in family business normally. Me as kid work all the time I could make some bucks we were lot of kids so if I needed something I had to work.
Has anyone actually seen these artisanal cobalt mines with child labour ?
"Forgive me father, I have hammered" sounds like Thor apologizing to Odin.
Can't wait to see how the MG4 compares to the BYD Atto 3.
I'm a fan of LFP, mainly due to its potential longer life. I think battery life is a major factor in total cost of ownership over EVs life (not to mention value of the car as it gets older). To me if you live in a moderate to warm climate (and if the LFP has sufficient range for your needs) then its a no brainer! Here in the South Island of NZ (moderate climate), I have not had any major issues during winter - although I noticed that in cold weather both Regenerative braking and acceleration can be limited sometimes (the answer is to preheat prior to leaving and before charging).
Personally I typically charge my Model 3 LFP to 100% at least once a week (as recommended by Tesla) but I try, when I can, to time it so that I drive it straight after its charged (to avoid it sitting for long periods at 100%).
glad to hear it, I was hesitant to drive down to south island last winter since I wasn't sure about the range in cold.
I live in Finland, no problems with LFP, you haven't even seen a winter =D I've never had any limits in acceleration with LFP Model 3. Even charging from normal SUKO at 13A/3kw/h works just fine with 90%~ efficiency at winter in -16-20 C. I heard NCA batteries don't sometimes charge at all when in too cold... I mostly use preheat only for 10-15 minutes before driving if it's super cold to melt the ice off the windows.
@@sundflux haha I agree! do you usually kept the car plugged in? I think it must use some power to keep the battery heated for optimal performance.. heated or insulated garage? or completely out in the cold?
@@alliao82 I plug in for the nights when I'm charging (not every night). It's out in cold, no carage, but parking at front of the house which has suko plug, charged with mobile charger @ 13A for first year, no problems, but now going to install wall charger for 11kw
@@alliao82 oh and to add on performance, enabling AC starts heating the battery automatically. Never had problems without pre-heating either, apart from freezing butt
So nice of you, Bjørn, to focus on other aspects than just the driving experience. Very good video, keep up your good work. Stay safe in Thai traffic
I have the BYD Tang, and i dont experience any of the drawbacks with LFP. With 509 HP it goes like a beast, and Bjørn came 465km with it. Also in a winter test with multiple cars the Tang with LFP did loose least range in the cold.
I have the same car and I agree with you wholeheartedly.
I have no favorite but i went with MY rwd with the LFP. We're driving 60 km to and from work, which seems like the best deal. Its gonna be fun to see how it does on longer trips.
We love rambling videos!
Thanks for the video. I didn't think of batteries on that level before but now I have a point of reference to ask questions. Be well.
The reason LFP needs to be charged to 100% is the lower cell voltage so the error is bigger and the BMS has a hard time to know the exact capacity, this will also degrade an LFP battery, but because it has more charge cycles it takes longer, except if you need to charge to 100% many times … so all in all it’s better to not charge the LFP to 100%, it’s not good, but is needed because the BMS needs to know what capacity you still have …
i charge mine to 100% every week, while quickly draining it to 90%
Tesla says you have to charge LFP up to 100% once a week
@@sasastojanovic5552 : Tesla thinks it's a small compromise to accelerate degradation for accurate SOC/range reading, but we won't know how "BAD" it is until the real world data is out a few years down the road.
Yeah many years ago I used LFP batteries on my custom motorcycle, the need to fully charge regularly was important to ensure the BMS kicked in and cells were balanced. Knowing the state of charge due to narrow voltage range was very difficult. Moving to LG Chem batteries ended up being a massive improvement.
I bought my tesla M3 RWD in Canada specifically because of the LFP battery. Degradation was key for me, I don't know how long I will hold the car for but if it turns to be a decade (highly unlikely) I would like it to be driveable. I've seen videos on YT comparing older teslas with LFP and NCM degradation, after years LFP was down to about 95% while NCM in many cases were around 70% original capacity. And safety also, I don't want my house to be on fire because I had my tesla parked in the garage :)
I didn't really had a choice since i needed a car fast, so i bought a used 2022 RWD M3 with LFP battery (made in China variant). I have to come to love the LFP battery. Usually i have to charge once a week or so for my normal driving, and being able to charge to 100% basically gives me another day of driving before i have to charge again.
However, i did have recently my first cold gating. Arrived at night with roughly 8% SoC, got the usual warning (low battery status in cold weather is not good). Next morning i drove the 300m to my usual charging spot (50 kW triple charger where charging for me is free), and although the car was parked in the underground garage (sadly no socket/charging port there) at around 15° C, it warned on charging that it had to heat up the battery to reach full speed. When i checked a few minutes later in the app it was still only charging at 37 instead of the usual 45 kW and still told me it was warming up the battery. I did not care really, as i was shopping during that time anyway and time spent charging is of no matter as i can do plenty of other stuff in the meantime.
Hopefully, the claim was those batteries will last longer than the car, but fast forward 5-8 years later, they have a huge failure rate and £30k+ repair bills. Testing many cycles in a short space of time at 20c is one thing, keeping the car exposed to the elements for 10+ years is another. There are reason to be excited for LFP though, as long as you aren't anywhere that gets cold! - I wonder how usable they would be in the UK.
It’s interesting though that many with LFP model 3’s are reporting nearly 10% degradation in two years… would that mean it’ll stop degrading after that initial drop off snd hold steady for many years?
@@jm31828 I've been doing a lot of research since my original post and seems 15% within 3 years is not unusual, you need to lose 30% before you can claim a warranty repair. Many actually do claim a warranty repair within 5 years or under 80k miles (around 7 to 11% depending which poll you believe).
The biggest issue is all they do is give you a second hand battery that already failed in another vehicle and was repaired.
Looking at forums, sometimes those last 100k+ miles but sometimes fail within as little 50k miles, it seems to be the luck of the draw (as well as how careful you are with sticking between 20 and 80%).
A bit disappointing considering just a repair sets you back $15k (refurb) with only 60k mile warranty - that's $0.31 per mile, easily more than double the cost of using diesel (!!) - this isn't accounting for other things potentially breaking during this time or charging costs.
CleanWatt, citing Tessie's range data, reports that Tesla LFP's lose range twice as fast to 90% SOH. Recurrent has data showing similar degradation speed. It is widely understood that Tesla's LFPs recommends charging full to 100% frequently to recalibrate BMS to avoid misreading SOC and cell imbalance.
At 7:28 Bjørn says: "How can the cars tell you that you have, like now, 43 percent battery? Well, it looks at the voltage to figure out how much it has."
That is incorrect. No production electric car manufactured today uses only voltage to determine its main battery's state of charge. It would be very imprecise even under no load. The battery voltage might be taken into account, especially at the very high and very low state of charge, as an additional check and a calibration input. But it is definitely not used as the main indicator of the battery's state of charge. That might have been acceptable perhaps in the very early EVs from 2000s. But not today.
Since a long time ago, almost all EVs, laptops, mobile phones etc. count the electric charge (Ah) that is put into the battery while charging. And they also count the electric charge that is taken out of the battery while discharging. By knowing the charging efficiency and other physical properties of the battery, they can then determine, very precisely, the actual state of charge.
This approach is sometimes referred to as "coulomb counting" because it measures the electric charge coming in and out of the battery. And the unit of electric charge is coulomb (C) which is dimensionally equivalent to Ah, a unit more commonly used in relation to battery capacity.
Using this method, determining the state of charge of LiFePo (LFP) batteries, cobalt-based batteries, LTO batteries, lead-acid batteries or any other batteries is equally simple.
Hey Bjorn! Its soon spring over here. First out in the next 1000km test should be the slick Ioniq6 with battery preheating. Come home and get going 🙂
I was initially thinking about the LR, but now I'm convinced the SR is the one to buy
I’m driving a Model 3 SR+ with 55kWh LFP (one of the first ones without heat pump) now for over 2 years and still happy with the car and the battery after Tesla fixed the software and BMS bugs at the beginning.
Yes, in winter it needs some time to heat up for fast charging, but on long trips it’s always warm after 200-300km of driving and it gets 168kW peak at a Supercharger V3.
Would buy LFP again! :)
Have you experiences much battery degradation? - What kind of real world km range are you getting in winter at 120kph from keeping the battery between 10 and 90%? (i.e. how far have you comfortably driven on the motorway with the heating on before needing to charge).
@@DigiDriftZone The degradation is about 5.6% after this time. Note on this: Degradation is not linear, at the beginning it is always slightly higher than in the further course in the years after.
On the Autobahn at 120-130kph I manage about 230-250km in winter, depending on the outside temperature - always with heater on (21°C), music and lights on. In summer, it's more like 260-310km - with AC on. On country roads clearly more.
Meanwhile, there is the 60kWh battery in the Model 3/Y - with slightly increased range compared to my 55kWh version.
@@monsieurb90 That's really good! - happy to hear it's working for you :) - I've seen some comments with people having more like 10-13% degradation after just 2 years and Tesla refusing to do anything until it gets to 30%, hopefully these are rare cases.
@@DigiDriftZone That's a lot - haven't had anyone in my circle of friends with such high degradation on the LFP battery yet.
Perhaps they are measuring from the wrong starting value. Tesla once corrected the mileage display downward by 10-15km because they programmed a higher buffer for the battery at the bottom. All subsequent SR+ variants with LFP already had this buffer from production. However, this is not a degradation but a software change.
@@monsieurb90 >> The degradation is about 5.6% after this time. Note on this: Degradation is not linear, at the beginning it is always slightly higher than in the further course in the years after
This reflects what I'm seeing in my MG ZS SR (facelift with LFP battery). Winter range vs summer is much worse than my Ioniq 38kwh. Also there is no 80% restriction setting on the charging screen vs the cobalt LR which has that - sort of encouraging charging to 100%.
Good video Björn top tx😊😊😊😊regarts from the Netherlands.
A car with a LFP battery will also maintain its acceleration/power until almost empty, because of the relatively flat voltage curve.
>> A car with a LFP battery will also maintain its acceleration/power until almost empty, because of the relatively flat voltage curve.
80% of Congo cobalt is extracted from mining companies and doesn't employ kids. 10% from cooperative companies who also doesn't employ kids. Last 10% is from citizens who discover cobalt on their piece of land. This is an exaggeration of petrol companies to manipulate peoples. Search for Belgium video in French called À contre sens.
Got an MG4 with LFP battery in December last year. I expect to see the standard range and the long range battery cars to have the same range in ten years time or maybe before that.
LFP use AH for % instead of voltage because the flat curve voltage area 3.3v - 3.2v.
@@Jeddin That is incorrect. Measuring electric charge (i.e. Ah) is only marginally more expensive. But its extra price is in the order of 10s of dollars at most. Today it makes no difference whatsoever in the design decision of cars which cost thousands of dollars.
For years now, every electric car measures the battery capacity this way. Relying on battery voltage is very inaccurate and also the voltage changes with the battery load. It could have been acceptable perhaps in the first generations of EVs in early 2000s but definitely not today.
@@Jeddin You use voltage readings to determine when the battery is completely full/empty, so voltage is used for "calibrating" SOC by detecting when battery reaches maximum and minimum charge. To determine SOC between these two extremes you measure Ah taken in/out from the battery to calculate SOC. You can also use voltage readings to complement Ah readings, but when doing so, you have to compensate in calculations for voltage sag when there is load applied.
LFP batteries improving for the win in 2024. I loved your beautiful and interesting Thailand street video from last year, Bjorn.
From EV owner perspective, I would prefer LFP. 90% of the time I charge at home. And I am the type of person who keeps a car for extended periods. Having A car that requires next to no maintenance and doesn't degrade much over 400-600 thousand KM would be perfect. In fact, the next car I will be looking for is a used Tesla model 3 with an LFP pack. Maybe in 3 years I will look at current models. What I hope to see is reduced prices on these used cars without much worry about the state of health of the battery.
I like this kind of rambling video
Barely anyone uses voltage as a battery SoC estimation. It’s the simplest algorithm existing and only useful for simple devices or when not enough capacity pot software is available. I’m pretty sure no car manufacturer uses voltage to estimate battery level. Car ECUs have more than enough capacity to use improved algorithms like Coulomb Counting.
Because Tesla doesn't ask to charge NMC batteries to 100% on a regular basis, I think they have no choice but to use voltage to estumate state of charge.
Bjørn and other experts: do you know if it’s really no problem to charge LFP to 100%? Or is it still uncomfortable, BUT a) required for calibration and b) not as big of a problem because of 3x longer lifecycle?
great drive and information Cheers Bjorn
I had difficulties concentrating on Bjørns speech due to the crazy traffic and loading of pickups and bikes 😲 I did not help either that it is left hand driving 😳 phew... Take care Bjørn...
Turn off the monitor.
I can see the use of instant torque under your situation mate !!!
Australia and USA also mine cobalt, its also used in phone batteries and computers. There are many uses it has. However manufacturers of EVs are moving away from cobalt. Similar to oil as oil is not just to fuel vehicles it has nearly 7000 uses but people focus on the one use of fuels cobalt has other uses also
interesting video
While Bjorn didn't technically say anything incorrect his grasp of the subject is more anecdotal than technical. LFP has some limitations when compared to NCM or NCA. It has a much higher lower temperature range at about 5 deg C. Therefore some way of heating the battery pack is essential in cold climates. It's also about 30% heavier per Wh. It has a very flat discharge curve between about 3.35V and 3.1V but Bjorn is wrong when he says the car uses voltage to estimate range. It doesn't. It continually monitors the power in Watts coming from the battery. It uses this to calculate the total energy being used and therefore remaining capacity. I think pretty much all EVs use that method. LFP is not really power constricted. There's plenty of examples of LFP batts that are rated at 10C continuous, so a 50kWh battery could deliver 500kW. It comes down to the quality and cost of the cell. And since the main driver with LFP is lower cost cells that's what you get. A123 who made high quality LFP cells rated them at 30C. They had extremely low internal resistance and very high cycle life but were expensive.
We have an LFP battery for our home. Right now it's 5 modules totaling 24kWh but we're going to take it up to 8 which will be 38kWh. BMW is also trying to reduce cobalt, supposedly the batteries in the i4 (and iX?) use less cobalt and all the cobalt is sourced from ethical locations that don't use child labor.
4K podcast, Nice!!!
7:44 not sure if this has been mentioned in the comments, but cars do not use the voltage to determine SoC, at least not by itself. They use a method called “coulomb counting”, which literally measures the energy (in coulombs) that enters/leaves the battery.
I got a reservation on a fisker ocean, and definitely getting a sport, not only for the price but is the one model that come with the LFP battery! To me longevity and safety is more important that huge range. I now Drive an i3s with a 42kwh batt and a range of 150-170 miles and it’s sufficient. With the ocean sport I’ll get roughly 250 miles range which is perfect!
Hi Bjorn, Would you care doing a new Ioniq 5 1000km challenge with the preconditioning update - once you're back in Norway? Thank you.
So in the US we don’t have many options for LFP besides Tesla, although ford and VW are promising to introduce it to lower priced EVs down the line.
Personally LFP has been growing on me. I started looking into them for home storage, where they make a ton of sense and are really cost efficient, but they’re starting to make sense for cars to me as well, particularly with the high cell to pack ratios.
If you compare the Tesla model 3 with the NCA and LFP batteries, obviously on paper the ranges are dramatically different. But for normal driving with home charging, the range you get from being able to charge to 100% daily more than makes up for that. As someone who doesn’t road trip or fast charge often, the range difference is minimal, and the smart thermal control makes them just as usable in cold temperatures. Your video showing the preconditioned LFP M3 charging at near NCA speeds at freezing temperatures really solidified it for me.
Of course the lower power draw is a downside, but I don’t have the need or budget for hyper fast accelerating EVs, so their limited power output and somewhat limited charging isn’t a downside. And with the cost difference, the ethical consideration, and the longevity, it almost makes the Long range and performance model 3s hard to justify.
Perhaps other automakers will demonstrate the drawbacks of LFP once they introduce it here with subpar thermal management and range estimation, but so far (ever since the price drop and credits), when considering a Tesla 3, the LFP seems like the obvious choice to me.
I have a naturally aspirated V8 engine that outputs similar torque with a model Y LFP.. it's more than enough for us.
@@alliao82 yep, it’s plenty of output for just about anyone, particularly in a daily driver. I had an is350 at one point with nearly identical power and acceleration to an LFP model 3, and even that’s hard to use in daily driving. Of course with electric motors unlike engines they feel torquey at lower speeds so you don’t need an oversize power output to make moderate acceleration effortless.
And I’ve driven the 3 performance and it’s something else entirely, though to be fair I don’t have a similarly fast ICE comparison. The ease with which that acceleration comes at any legal speed or any situation could be outright dangerous in the wrong hands. Stability control and lane keep can only do so much, and while I’m glad performance EVs exist, they’re wholly unnecessary for most.
@@graemestevens2398 that’s very interesting to know. I guess I bought into that idea, although there is a grain of truth to it when it comes to charge cycles on a giant car battery. LFP supports so many more charge cycles than NCM that you virtually could charge it to 100% all the time and not suffer meaningful losses in normal car ownership. If I wanted to keep it for 20 years, I suspect I would limit charging to 80 or 90% except for the BMS calibration.
Honestly, I’ve had many lithium ion battery powered devices over the years and while I’ve experienced degradation on smaller cells, li polys, and even 18650s, I think the sheer scale of capacity that ~80kWh gets you makes the discussion different. Most well managed NCM cars don’t lose a ton of range over the lifespans EVs have experienced, and I’d figure LFP equipped EVs would have a few times less degradation.
But either way, fair point, lithium secondaries don’t like being at either extreme unlike say lead acid batteries. So I’ll keep that in mind if I manage to end up with an LFP EV.
I drive a small sedan tata tiago electric car which has a 24 kilowatt battery here in India which is of, LFP chemistry. One thing i notice is that Lfp batteries are most efficient at temperature around 20 degrees Celsius to 28 degrees. More or less than this, the battery consumption increases, especially in winter when temperature goes below 15 degrees Celsius.
If the car has been parked outside and it’s like -30C and the car is also.
Will the LFP work immediately or does the car need to heat up the battery before driving?
My question is: would LFP batteries would be a good choice for a vehicle parked off street that’s going to stand daily temperatures between -5°C and +12°C in winter and spring?
Haha :) Closing the gap when someone tries to merge, that sounds like they all come from Borås. They didn't learn that you should "hug each other when in the traffic" ;)
Very interesting and informative video! Just one thing in it whats not true: Real BMW drivers never blink 😆 Now I'll try to find out whats inside my Zoe ZE 50 battery.
LFP for the WIN!
Since i watched lfp Batteries capabilities i think they are amazing and Tesla m3 have it on the new cars if i buy an ev it Will BE lfp because i live in Portugal we have good hot Weather, now it's developing a new tech salt battery lets see how it Will perform
LFP is also perfect for people who can charge their car at home. You can always charge to 100 % without worries to damage the battery and range is then almost similar to the range of a larger NMC battery with charge limit of 80 % (eg Model 3 SR LFP vs M3 LR with NMC). And the car is cheaper.
This is a huge mistake and dont give wrong advice to people pls. LFP is still lithium battery. It only needs to be charged once every week to 100% or once in every two weeks, depending on how much you drive. It is only done to let the BMS calibrate estimated range because LFP has much smaller voltage diferences when full and empty than NMC so it needs to be charged to 100% as I said earlier. Keep it at 80 max 90 for the rest and you will get even more life out of that great and reliable battery chemistry.
@@sindoorbelic8036 Tesla recommends charging LFP Model 3 to 100 % on a daily basis. Quote from Tesla M3 user manual "If your vehicle is equipped with an LFP Battery, Tesla recommends that you keep your charge limit set to 100%, even for daily use, and that you also fully charge to 100% at least once per week. " So I think my statement is valid, at least for Tesla Model 3 SR with LFP.
@@TheArminOF Ok you are right. But LFP still lives longer if kept at 80% for majority of time. LFP still degrades more if charged to 100% but compared to NMC and NCA much nuch less. If you dont need 100 every day stay 80-90 ,than charge it once a week to 100. Thats the best use of lfp. Again not huge difference between not caring at all and being very picky :).
The battery should be in 100% SOC so long time every now and then that the cell balancing can be done in equal cell temperatures. If the balancing is done weekly, it doesnt need long time, if the battery is already in steady temperature.
My quess is that Tesla's 100% SOC is 90-95% of real 100%. That already makes the battery last much longer than if it is charger to absolute maximum ratings.
If you want to maximize the longevity, a CAN-reader and TeslaSpy app is a good tool to read the battery condition and need for balancing. (CAN is the dataconnection/data bus for service, and one can read each cell voltage, temp, SOH etc. )
You won't like me for this but I feel that EVs should only be using LPF batteries just on the grounds of safety at least untill something else comes along with the same safety standards of fire, and ability to be constantly charged to 100% and discharged to low levels with no damage , wish the long range mg4 came with me the LRP battery ,and a rear wiper would be nice. Have you Heard the stories of people getting locked inside the MG4.
Or get over the ocd factor?
@@samusaran7317 it's not about getting over any factor,it's about manufacturers advising the customer not to charge a nickel-based battery over 90% or discharge below 10% so lossing 20% of their range on a low capacity battery than add in winter conditions, resulting in a large decrease in range at least with LPF you can leave a battery in a fully charged state more safety. it's not good to leave nickel batteries under 100% loading ,most people will just want to come home and stick the car on charge and walk away not thinking about what harm is being done to the pack thats continuosly being at 100%
LFP's do burn. Sure, they have lower risk of thermal runaway, but in China, for instance, there were no fewer than 45+ LFP EV fires last year (counting those only reported by the media).
Hej Bjørn.
Im from Denmark, so you know the weather and winter here.
Im about the buy a TM3, but not sure if I go for the LR or SR+??
Will the SR+ be fine for winter in Denmark, will it lose much range? And does home charger only charge for 7kw for the SR+?
I drive about 100km a day, and I have home charger.
Should I go for the LR or SR+ ?
I have the same conversation with myself driving in Canada about the slow drivers or reckless drivers. LOL
People also need cobalt. We get it through vitamin B12.
Hey Bjorn please test the BYD E2, it's a really cheap EV hatch for $21000. It's basic motoring for the masses, not some rich man's toy.
I'm curious about NaIon(Sodium), how they realy perform. Stats were verry promising, in comparsion to LFP, faster charging, lower degradation, better performance in cold temp. CATL should bring first NaIon Batteries to Market this year ...
Good discussion Bjørn. 😀 I would say LFP is my favorite. Clearly it is better for stationary storage. Modern EVs with LFP have enough range. Tesla’s Model 3 RWD has EPA rating of 273 miles, more than the 270 mile range my 2015 Model S had when new (85D). However, I do like extra range for road trips. Not really needed, with today’s supercharger network, but the extra range gives more flexibility on where and when to stop. So I am not sure if I would buy an LFP car as a primary road trip car. Since we are a two car household, I think one small-med LFP car for most daily driving, plus one large NCA or NMC car for road trips would be ideal. If needed we could take the smaller LFP car on road trips, so it is a good fall back in case the larger car is not available for some reason.
LFP model 3 charges np at 120-130kw/h at superchargers, small 60kw battery also fills up fast, I don't see how extra 60 miles vs long range (at 100% difference, but daily 90% charge limited!) is worth it for more dangerous chemistry. I've lived with LFP RWD M3 now through 1 and half winters in Finland, works just fine even in cold, gives 400km+ range. You likely have stop just as many times on road trips anyway, at most saving 1 quick charge at superlong trips, mostly you just drag around unnecessarily big battery...
@@sundflux what speed are you driving at in Finland to get 400 km?
@@ora10053 Summer time limits are 80 to 120km/h, Winter 80 to 100km/h. I usually add +5 to speed limit. So no German style autobahns here. Also Finland is relatively flat all over, no big mountain roads like in Norway either.
@@ora10053 oh but to add, at winter 350-370km is more realistic in practice, especially if its shitty snow on the roads
@@sundflux >> oh but to add, at winter 350-370km is more realistic in practice, especially if its shitty snow on the roads
For me the main reason to choose LFP is cycle lifetime being 3-10 times greater -- your EV will last 3-10 times longer before the battery degrades. Also the capacity loss (shelf life) is far better and they're far safer. You'd have to be crazy to choose the old child-slavery tech.
Far from all the cobalt being from child slavery as suggested it was Always a tiny fraction and a myth.
Majority of Cobalt comes now from australia.
>> For me the main reason to choose LFP is cycle lifetime being 3-10 times greater -- your EV will last 3-10 times longer before the battery degrades. > Also the capacity loss (shelf life) is far better and they're far safer > You'd have to be crazy to choose the old child-slavery tech.
LFP =
Lithium ferro-phosphate
Ferro from ferrum for iron
LFP bettery is not suitable for EV. LFP do have longers lifespan and safety than NCM battery. however, that is under special cricumstances. LFP bettery have longer lifespan and safety when you deal EV under 0.5 C-rate. But average EV c rate that we perform with our EV is well above 1 crate. When you perform your EV on 1 Crate, life span and safety of LFP dramatically decrease so that lifespan becomes similar to NCM. But when you perfrom way bigger C rate, lifespan of LFP decrease than NCM and also safety too.
For exampke, BYD use LFP on PHEV. Capacity is 15kWh or 17kWh depand on model. But it's electric motor spec is like 130kW and 140kW. Such high C-rate performance. And outcome is that last year, more than BYD's 40 PHEV caught fire in China.
When you deal high Crate, NCM is safer, and longer lifespan then LFP.
LFP is suitable on such EV like smart, Hong mini, and ect.
LFP cells have a significantly lower internal resistance, less voltage loss under load. Maybe this explains the faster acceleration (to 100kph) of the MG4 SR compared to the LR version because it's only a little lighter than the LR one.
My MG5 SR (same battery as the MG4, I believe) accelerates like hell, even in ECO!
Hi Byorn. Have you done comparison of EV heat pumps? Efficiency, reliability, noise, etc
Not much you can test is there? They are more efficient than not having one. Whether the cost (if it's available as an option) is beneficial is another matter.
*Bjorn
@@FFVoyager It would be interesting to see an ID3 test heat pump vs resistive heater. As you can spec it either way. Common sense says the money isn't worth it. But in reality winter range is worth it as that trumps pay back.
Really the stupidest thing is to not have it. Because all cars already have a heat pump. The AC compressor is a heat pump. All you need is a reversing valve and some software. That's it.
@@dgurevich1 it adds cost though. There's not even an option to have it on the MG ZS EV.
BYD blade LFP is slowly becoming the best, while Tesla 4680 NCM the worst. You have forgot to speak about REPAIR and REUSE in your video. Basically the 4680 Tesla is using is a really shitty design. The 2170 they had before was hard to repair, but still doable. The 4680 is all glued together with the foam and a nightmare to repair or reuse for solar storage afterwards. The modular NMC pouch batteries that most European and Korean brands currently use are easy to repair and reuse, but weight a bit more, because they are not structural. It's almost same pack weight for a modular NMC vs structural blade LFP now.
So the structural BYD blade LFP has most advantages and barely any disadvantage, also the CATL Qilin, with a similar design. Hope more and more producers start adopting them, otherwise the second hand market will bring problems and bad reputation for the manufacturers like Tesla that keep using non-repairable cells. An EV that costs 50k you cannot throw away after 3-4 years and 150k km as you do with an Iphone that costs 1k, just because the battery is out of warranty and one module has gone bad or has been sightly damaged. There are many cars that do more that 150k km in the first 5 years and are out of warranty afterwards. And even under warranty, to recycle a full pack because of one cell gone bad, makes no sense.
All the cells are non-repearable. Tesla's old batteries usually didn't break because of a single cell fault, but because of moisture inside the pack or fault in connections. The new pack is likely much more reliable, because most of fault mechanisms are mitigated.
I think the faulty new pack can be used as stationary battery by disconnecting the faulty part of the battery and leave it unused. The new pack still is arranged as groups of cells, so it is possible to use for example 300 V of total 400V series connected cells.
LFP is the winner for today. Tomorrow I hope that Natriu... um, sorry, Sodium batteries will make all this go away.
If not, last week Norway announced a “substantial” amount of metals and minerals ranging from copper to "rare" earths on the seabed of its extended continental shelf. So each way we are set, and Kongo could get back to digging out Blood Diamonds.
I you want to learn more about the different batteries, the channel "the limit factor" has very through explanations. It also covers other EV topics.
Bjørn, er you going to test mg 4?
Battery life of LFP is many times more because as you say the Voltage is in a smaller range, maybe it's about 3.2 - 3.4. Greater battery damage at higher volts in Cobalt batteries the higher you go above say 3.95v (80%). The smaller voltage range is why Tesla says to charge LFP to 100% each time so the car can then calculate it's range - otherwise it can't estimate accurately when nearly empty. Presumably it measures volts and amps to measure how much of the 54kWh pack it has used.
Cobalt batteries. Just stay between 15 and 80%. And if you go above or below go there for the shortest possible time.
They dont say you charge it to 100% every time but once a week, or even once in two weeks. Rest of the time its better to keep it at 80-90.
SAIC Maxus 5+ (6 seater) 70kwh SAIC Lithium battery - would you also recommend 20% to 80% charging rule applies or has the manufacturer built in some buffer that allows charging to 100% safely each time
Just charge to 80% for daily use. Easy peasy
Will the MG4 dual motor eventually also be offered in Europe??
Yes, they said they will release both the dual motor with 400ps and a RWD 77kw extended range model with 500km range
I go for alcaline batteries as of now
As far as I know cobalt is used in petrol refining too, (between other things) so don’t use petrol if you want feel good about child slave work 9:05
Model Y LR LFP would be my favorite. With ventilated seats 😅
for TAXI lfp is beter ??
What about LFP discharge for levels below 20% such as 5% or less? Causes increased degradation over time?

What kind of battery does the MEB cars have? 😅
I just switched from Model 3 LR to model 3 with LFP and oh boy is it bad in cold weather. I have reduced or even no recuperation even at like 7-8 degrees Celsius outside. Unplanned supercharging is also a nightmare.
do you normally keep it plugged in? i wonder if their advice is so that it'd use some power to keep the battery heated
I wonder why the car makers do not add a powerfull heating resistor for regenerative breaking. It is still better to heat the battery that the brake disks.
Use pre-heating.
there is a battery chemistry called manganese LFP & it promising
I have been ordering a Model Y rwd 2023 for delivering in the first half of this year. I will Pick it up in Århus Denmark. I assume it will be manufactured in Giga-Berlin. Is it a LFP battery and if it is, is it a bad choice thinking of the changing weather in Denmark. ?
bad choice.
RWD teslas should have the sound system as an optional. Think I will grab an AWD for a few extra €€ even though I don't need the extra range or power, but want the sound system.
I think all the hardware is there so it could emerge as a software update or package. I'm guessing that will happen if they drop the LR.
LFP does not have much discharge issues in cold weather. Only issue is charging below 0 C - it'll cause lithium plating. Discharge is not an issue and battery conditioning before charge will easily fix this issue. Considering you can charge to 100% and very flat charge and discharge curve and safety, LFP will be used more an more for vehicles. Chinese companies are reducing weight and increasing energy density. Also Sodium Iron Phosphate batteries are on the horizon... Sodium, Iron and Phosphate are abundant. Future looks bright for cheap batteries and cheap EV's.
It has discharge issues if it's cold and SoC is low.
Sodium ion is much bigger than Lithium ion. That makes problems with cathode longevity, because the bigger ion needs more space inside the cathode and anone structures.
Just an engineering problem to be solved.
For stationary battery the metallic molten sodium and molten salt electrolyte is cheap and has a long lifetime.
09:11 - You know, Bjorn, it's weird how people complain about Cobalt now, when EVs are on the streets, but gave no -sheeet- attention to this issue for more than 20 years in the past... I'm looking at cell phones/smartphones and other batteries that are being used in households. And for me, this argument doesn't stand. Suddenly we remembered that we have some weird African dictatorships, that weren't a point of concern in the past.
The % of cobalt in a battery is low. Think it's less than 30kg per EV. So on a swings and roundabouts basis vs taking 20 years of oil out the air. And yes, shorter range EV's using LFP is a great thing!
Waiting for an EV with hybrid battery, best of both worlds NMC when you need the power & LFP for the everyday stuff
NIO has a combined LFP + NCM battery, but it's not available in markets outside China.
TM3 0-60mph in 5.8 secs is enough power I'd say. My passengers complain when I accelerate fast in a TM3 standard.
The amount of cobalt and nickel in the NCA battery is actually quite low. About 10kg if a 50kWh pack. Lithium too, only about 30-50kg.
@@altern8tive That is non drinkable salt water.....
It’s well and good to complain about this and that element used in EVs but what about the use of same in multiple other products necessary for modern life.
❤❤❤
I have a 64kwh MG4 and I tend to charge it between 80 and 20% (or < 30% depending). I think charging to 100% without worrying about degradation is a major advantage of LFP as is the better charge cycles before degradation but only if the overall capacity is the same which it isn't quite yet. I've seen videos saying that they can dope batteries with manganese and increase the energy density so perhaps in a few years LFP will be the default in most cars.
>> I think charging to 100% without worrying about degradation
@@tooltalkTesla now uses LFP cells for its new Powerwall 3 that has a capacity of 13.5 kWh and has a continuous power of 11.5 kW.
I think LFP batteries will do very well in cars.
@@pauld3327 : China's LFPs already have significant problems:
Tesla LFP Battery 10% RANGE LOSS PROBLEM? | Model 3 RWD
The brand new LFP batteries will degrade substantially quicker. There's not long-term retention data for LFP batteries on the market yet, but the trend tends to be substantially faster degradation. Trends show them stabilizing around that 10% degradation mark in about half the time as non-LFP batteries - around 50,000 miles instead of 100,000 miles."
@@tooltalk Several studies show that LFP batteries have a cycle life of 2 to 4 times longer than NMC batteries.
@@pauld3327 : sure, that's in ESS applications. In EVs, they are under high SOC and higher c-rates. In other words, LFPs in EVs must be charge to 100% frequently to recalibrate the BMS which in turns damages batteries faster. Most studies don't include this fact.
Hey Byorn. I have a MG4 LFP in Germany. The preheating does not work really. I test the car with preheating the battery by 0g outside temp. and without preheating.The charge performance was the same, 52kw not more. And I drive 40 min with preheating. This car is not good for long distance in german winter. And what I observe in my 9000km and 3 month is that the consumption is so high. I have a consumption up to 26 kwh. I don´t drive on highway. I also have a TM3 LFP this car consumed much less. Same kind of using only with 174 Wh/km. Tesla is more heavy and have a way better performance and charge way better also in winter. What did Tesla better with the same battery?
Aerodynamics. TM3 drag coefficient = 0.23, MG4 = 0.27. Add rims and tyres, and there’s your difference, without even getting into drivetrain efficiency.
@@omarbabakarkhail If he doesn’t drive on highways, the cw shouldn’t produce such a difference
Tesla thermal, energy and battery management has several years of experience behind it. Add aerodynamics and tires (especially important on the motorway) and you get the big difference. But the MG is a much cheaper car, so not surprising.
EVs turn traditional drivetrain thinking on its head. The more powerful the car, the more efficient it is. And power is determined by the battery capacity and design, not the motor, it is trivial to make very powerful electric motors compared to ICE cars.
*Bjorn
Don't buy Chinese sheeet
Especially re the MG4, LFP is not an option (for Europe): no seat heating and no heat pump (luxury version options only). Still great for a Model 3 or so, though.
The 51kw lfp model is sold in the EU and UK. I don't really do any long journeys in the winter, so a heat pump is not a must for me anyway
I believe both model 3 and Y uses NCA (nickel cobolt aluminium) cathode, not NMC
Correct. I was referring to 64 kWh MG4 when I talked about NCM.
Tesla uses NCA (Panasonic) in North America, but NCM (LG Chem) in China and EU.
LPF 👍👍
In regards to cobalt…The U.S. only has one cobalt mining company, which is in Idaho. China has tons!
Most cobalt come from Congo, not China.
Shouldn't home storage batteries be re-purposed EV batteries that have a second life? Does that make sense?
In UK the law is that there is a fine for flashing your headlights for any other reason than to warn people that you are there.... but the convention amongst most drivers is similar to Norway; eg do come on, or go ahead and make your manoeuvre. People also flash to say thank you?????
9:15 those pickups hauling some huge amount of weed 😁 Maybe they are Norweedian? 😅😂
Anyone know what type of battery the Citroen C4e has? it loses quite a bit of performance in cold weather so maybe LFP?
Stellantis has no LFP afaik.
The reduction in range is really a big 30% in the winter in the case of my Citroen eC-4, I asked the service and the brand representative, but I didn't get an answer! In the service, the mechanic said that the battery is a CATL product, but he doesn't know the chemistry of the cell!
It's a nmc battery. Loss of performance can be attributed to supbar thermal management
@@csabagugg3478 Yes - agree its a really big drop. Makes the car a lot less attractive for longer trips in winter. I am looking forward to spring!
@@Scrap-press Thank you! Okay so the drop in cold weather performance is due to how Stallantis implimented the tech. Quite glad I got the car on a two year lease only! The car works great in warmer weather however.
13:34 blink once like a bmw driver, LOL.
LFP with batteries with 300kms range is better than one with Li-ion what 400 kms range because of the 20-80% rule it is 240 kms in reality.
This is nonense. The 20-80% rule appllies to all LIB (lithium ion batteries) including LFP. Remember, Tesla does NOT recommend their customers to charge their LFPs' to full (or discharge to 0%) all the time. Their LFP EVs must charge to 100% only b/c it's difficult to read the SOC accurately without recalibrating it every week.
Lfp = lithium iron phosphate
Purposely chose TM3 RWD for the benefits of LFP for 99% of our use.
LFP for lower degradation
I hope we move away from not only cobalt, but also even so much lithium. I’m hoping that sodium and sulphur are the next big things in battery manufacturing since they’re vastly more prevalent and easier on the environment.
As for child labor, even in the US I worked at 10 years old delivering newspapers and then at 12 in construction for my father’s asphalt paving and underground pipeline business. Clearly not the same as working in a mine, but the company I worked for at 10 yrs old still profited off of using children. Should they have been held accountable? Should my father have been? I’m not defending child labor in mines, but it makes sense to me that, as other commenters have mentioned, some of these children are doing whatever they can to support their families. Ideally it wouldn’t be that way, ideally there would be adults that could do it, or social services to help those families that don’t have those means. But that’s not how it is in these countries. It’s sadly unfortunate. Do we eliminate a means for them to survive? I honestly don’t know.
Well, battery chemistry is one thing, pack design and engineering a different one. In the future, most cars will likely use LPF, LMFP and sodium ions, the limitation of these, having a lower energy density, can easily be compensated by improving wrap to storage ratio in the packs. Most packs have a 60:40 or 70:30 ratio in favor of the wrap. What we need is a 20:80 ratio in favor of the storage material. Cars could become lighter, cheaper and more spacious. In addition one could fit a larger battery pack in the car, creating more range, even with a battery chemistry, which has a lower density than NCM/NMC.
I like maximum range so I'm trend toward Cobalt. Since it can be recycle, I believed in the future we'll not need to mine huge amount anyway
@@HermanWillems Misinformed. Typical fanboy
@@HermanWillems Point went over your head....
@@HermanWillems Lightyear one 109 wh/km
I would prefer cobalt battery in cold wheather and without home charging. Then the cold charging quickly up to 80% is an issue. With home charging LFP charged to 100% vs NMC to 80% is not big difference, and LFP lasts longer. For ling distance driving the difference is small with proper termel management.
LFP in -25C driven 400 km/week in small legs would be awfull without home charging. (Or working place charging or several hours per week in Type2 chargers during hobby)
Even some 8 Amp 230V home charging would be enough to avoid need for charging really slowly more than once a week.
LFP batteries may be suitable in countries with warm climates, but not in countries where sub-zero temperatures are common. There is also a problem with LFP in determining the state of charge (SoC) as Bjørn mentioned. While LFPs are more durable, they also degrade when charged to 100%, which is why they don't charge to 100% SoC even in energy storage. In general, I think NMC batteries are better suited for use in cars.
Okay, let's look at the facts then.
If you take the Model 3 SR+ for example, that one ships with LFP since End of 2020. Let's ignore the first few months where Tesla had no idea how to handle that battery and cars couldn't charge.
It's right that LFP also doesn't like to sit at 100% or a very high cellvoltage for too long. So why does Tesla still recommend the 100% charge once a week? It's to calibrate the BMS because as you said it needs that to correctly determine SoC. But against your complain, the 100% isn't 100% for too long. The cell voltage drops like a rock once the car is done with calibrating. Like really, hook up ScanMyTesla and you will see it. This means that Tesla does indeed not let the LFP battery stay at 100% or a high cellvoltage after charging. The issue with degredation is basically mostly solved with that. You can also see this in the real world data shared on the Tesla forums.
LFP batteries have no issue in the cold whatsoever for power output, in fact they are actually better in outputting power when cold than the NMC counterparts. They only can't charge when they are cold. However as you can see in Norway, charging with 11kW AC which likely is 90% of the time for most people, 5°C or so in the pack are enough. For fast charging you have more than enough time to heat up the battery before the first HPC. And this also needs to be done with the NMC batteries.
Additionally LFP has a big charging advantage, they can sustain way higher peak C-Ratings than the NMC batteries without degrading more. They also can sustain a higher rating on mid-high SoC. That's also why a Model 3 SR+ charges way faster if plugged in at 50% SoC compared to an Model 3 LR plugged in at 50%.
I don't see a reason to not use LFP in cars. They are cheaper, more environment friendly, have drawbacks which aren't really big but have a way longer lifespan. NMC should still be used for high-capacity packs due to higher energy density but that's it imo
Tesla advise weekly charging of LFP to 100% partly to help with determining battery life - and don't warn about 100% charging. But they do warn against charging their cobalt batteries to 100%. The "80%/100% trip" graph limit is NOT there on LFP battery displays in Tesla's. LFP is FAR more tolerant of going to 100%. High voltage causes battery degradation - but LFP works in a very narrow voltage band (3.3-3.5v) vs 2.8 - 4.2 for NCA/NCM.
@@kruemelfelix The problem with using LFP batteries in an EV is still with determining the correct SoC value, check out the video "I drove a Tesla Model 3 SR+ LFP until the car stopped". Tesla was behaving strangely. And consider that this was a test with a new car, what behavior can be expected when the battery is more degraded?
@@markyates5744 LFP batteries are more tolerant to a full charge, which does not mean they are immune to degradation. It's still true that you can't leave an LFP battery at 100% SoC either. See the study "Best charging behavior for LFP batteries"
Tesla with LFP does not have these problems.