Mitsubishi Ecodan 14Kw Air Source Heat Pump review
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- Опубликовано: 13 сен 2024
- A review and my personal thoughts on our Mitsubishi Ecodan air source heat pump, which we've had installed for almost a year. Learn what we like and don't like about it.
Sorry about the focus during the video, not sure what happened there.
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I installed my7kw heat pump in my new pasif sips 3 bed detached single story house and its only for the underfloor heat,,,,no tank its direct to the floor,,,,works like a dream,,,,,,,
Great review. We’ve just had an Ecodan 8.5kw fitted. I too am surprised at how basic the controller is after having a Honeywell. Naively I assumed it would work with the Ecodan. My installers suggested using space in my garage/utility for the tank and associated gubbings. A good move, you can just hear a low hum in total silence. And we’ve gained storage in the redundant airing cupboard. I altered the Legionella setting to once a week at 1am. Off peak , I heat the water off peak too. I’m quite pleased after a week.
We have one and very happy with it, coming from a 1930’s style gas powered heating then moving to a newer six year old property which one was fitted we were sceptical. After a year being here we are very happy with it , but don’t be fooled to paying out for one if you live in a traditional British double brick house you will be cold. It works best with newer insulated homes and underfloor heating with larger radiators upstairs. Also make sure it’s installed by a competent company who know what they are doing. Mitsubishi are the best don’t use the online app it’s on 24/7 has to be to work properly, you can’t switch it on and off like gas central heating.
I think most hp manufacturers advocate insulating first vs a straight swap. Not much point generating constant low temp heat if its all going out the attic/window frames/walls because smart insulation back then was a lagging jacket on the hot water cylinder. Old homes can be insulated to A level. Attic insulation is the easiest but external or cavity insulation is more expensive but has the biggest impact presuming the attic and draughty 60's windows are upgraded
I have the 8kw version and the FTC5 fully enclosed water tank. Yes, it's big, but mine makes no noise whatsoever (are you sure your pump is ok). As other people have stated you can turn off the Legionella protection (as I have done). I have the water tank set at 50C and have replaced the thermostat with one that I can set to whatever temp I want and that is set to 60C and controlled by a solar i boost which uses excess solar which would otherwise be exported to the grid to top up the hot water. Even in the dead of winter my water gets heated to 60C at least once a week if not more. I live in a traditional brick built house with triple glazing on the north side and double glazing on the south in order to take advantage of the solar gain through the windows which I would not get with triple glazing. I had all of the radiators replaced with eco-power rads which are much more efficient with heat pumps. They are a lot smaller than normal radiators and have a small fan in them which makes about the same sort of noise as a computer. They take a bit of getting used to as they never get hot to the touch. If the noise of the fan in the bedroom bothers you at night you can turn it off if you want (just remember to turn it back on in the morning). We leave ours on all the time and they never bother us.
Getting a proper survey done by a reputable company is a must. I could only find 2 companies who installed air souce heat pumps in my area when I wanted mine fitted in 2006. 1 guy came round took a few mesurements and after much prompting gave me an estimate a week later. The 2nd guy measured every room in the house and the very next day sent me a 90 page report and a very resonable fixed price for the job which included replacing all the pipework and installing my new radiators which I had already purchased.
Getting a regular service is always a good thing and Mitsubishi actually have a plan where they come out once a year and service both the outside and inside units and the price includes breakdown insurance covering all parts and labour apart from £50 callout fee. They also fit a gizmo on the first visit which can control your system from a computer or tablet.
A very good review of your system. We have all the same issues, with our almost identical system; right down to it being too big to close the airing cupboard doors and it waking up 'er indoors if it comes on in the night. One trick, you can poke around in the menu options of the control box and switch off the legionnaires protection just by removing a tick. Of course you should only do this if you are confident your water tank regularly gets hot enough to kill any diseases! The internet app really is pants - but our installer gave us a portable battery powered thermostat box which is a game-changer. It's right by my chair and guarantees I'm cozy.
In menu you also have silence mode and %, which can be adjusted right to the night time. In mine I did it, and everything is good now.
Mitsubishi is a good make - I have 25kw of the air to air in work cooling various things and even our 8+ year old unit has only had basic yearly maintenance. It's a shame they have not kept up with the software and control systems for the modern age.
Great review very interesting findings. 10 years ago I installed a Daikin ASHP it is connected to 125 sqm of under floor heating. We had to install it quickly as the old oil boiler gave up the ghost so I didn’t have time to connect any thermostats and just set it to run constantly at a set flow temp and in 10 years it’s never run above 28C I turn it on October the 1st and off April 31st no zone control or time control purely controls the indoor temp on flow temp and just drips heat into the building,if I feel it’s a little nippy i notch the flow up 1C at a time until we are comfortable. I never bothered setting the weather compensation as I probably change the flow temp about three or four times during the winter and I have a spread sheet that I know what’s the lowest flow to outside temp to be comfortable. Hot water is done with a 250 litre tank and immersion on economy 7 tariff I think Heat pumps work better as dedicated low temp heating systems not DHWS well that’s my experience.
Seems a waste to have to rely on night rate power to heat the domestic water and hope its still hot enough before it starts up again. Seems worth getting the hp to take over in the summer when house heating demand it low (or zero) and there is still a demand for hot water that a hp in warm air temp could exploit very well and cut your power bill.
I am looking to buy a Mitsubishi heat pump and your information was very eye opening and useful. Thank you.
Super review. Mine (14,4kW) will be installed next month, however, I opted for a direct condensation buffer tank of 850L. So the inner Ecodan unit becomes obsolete. The control unit will be a non-Mitsubishi universal device.
Cool. I hope it works well. Maybe you could do a video?
People invest in such products for reliability, user friendly control , environment etc , I'm also installing and econ Dan and didn't come across this review but wished I had as it would make think twice and look at other similar system. Great unbiased review
May I ask if you the same issues? and what power is your ASHP please?
I installed a 15 watt bulb under the frost stat to keep the temperature above 5c as the boiler was running all day as it was in the cold attic. I switched it on from below when needed. The bills were huge.. That was on the gas boiler. Thanks for the review. It's made me aware..I need to wait another 5 years I feel.
Would insulating your cold attic not have avoided this especially as the thermostat was put in the attic? Same for a HP?
Hello
It is very easy to switch off the frost function and the legionella process
If the glycol protects to minus 15 degrees C, you can adjust the temperature which you have set to 5 degrees C down - it will go to 3 followed by an asterisk - the asterisk indicates that the frost function has been deactivated
However, you must be sure of your lowest outdoor temperature and the freezing point of the glycol
Normally the heat pump will be running when it is cold outside but there could be a power cut; in which case the unit relies on the antifreeze
Legionella is simple to switch off, you just untick the box - however, you have to be sure that the water has been securely pasteurised by keeping an eye on it
If you check out the you tube video of setting up the controls on this system, I think it advises 60 degrees C for 1 hour once a week - that means not using the water for that period as this would cool the cylinder
I have never had a complaint about the pump noise but you may be able to reduce this noise by changing the pump or pumps speed/s
Changing the speed will affect a number of things so you would need to check the flow rates too
Hope this is helpful, I cannot give you my contact details on a public site
Best to call Mitsubishi helpline - they should be able to go through what I have mentioned here
Also, you need to be certain that the glycol freezing point is as the commissioning document shows - some installers can be lazy and not put enough glycol in the antifreeze mix
This is checked with a propylene glycol refractometer - about £30 I think
A very useful couple of tips, thank you very much.
Thanks for the detailed review here! Just wondering... has there been any firmware updates or anything since? Or are this issues you've had still present?
Thanks for your insights. We have the R410a predecessor of your unit, which has been fine since it was installed in 2019. Like you, ours wasn't fitted into a new build - it replaced an oil boiler system in a 1960s bungalow. We didn't have the luxury of converting to underfloor heating, but the place does get warm enough.
Our engineer told me that the legionella function would know when our PV panels heated up the tank enough, so the heat pump wouldn't run weekly - I never checked to prove him wrong!
Yes, I think everyone agrees that the app and controller are total crap. Sadly, there's nothing we can do about that, but the units themselves are very good, with great long-term reliability. Maybe the dearer Nibe or Stiebel Eltron equivalents are better, but would a better app & control be worth another couple of grand?
We've got a Dimplex 300 litre cylinder. The installation's not as neat as yours, but there's more space to work on it if required, plus it'd be simpler to replace than one like yours with all the gubbins clinging to it. All that's in the old brick airing cupboard, far from the bedrooms so noise isn't an issue. The ASHP's right outside our living room, but it's no noisier than the old boiler with its fan running from 2 rooms away.
If anyone's got one of these and UFCH, bear in mind that there's a switch somewhere to allow reverse flow, to keep the floors cool in summer - an ideal use for solar panels in the sunnier months! Don't try this if you've got radiators though - condensation streams down them onto the floor.
Thanks. This video along with all of the corresponding comments are realy useful. 👍
Glad it was helpful! Thanks
Good video. I have the same pump now for 7 years. I agree completely with all your 'annoying tech bits - frost protection etc'.
Could you comment on what i do.
1)I switch mine off in the summer months as it keeps running to keep the buffer tank warm even though the rooms dont need any heat.
2) i set my buffer to 40C in winter and 30C in spring and autumn as i find this is enough to heat Underfloor.
3) i have PV and a solar switch which works perfectly, you mentioned solar hot water panels. Woukd. You recommend them. 4 people in house. No grants available to me.
4) my running costs are £2600 for all my heating and eletric in 3000sq ft modern bungalow, how does this compare with yourself. thanks
Great points and thank you for the positive response. I'll try to answer your questions.
1 & 2. We don't have a buffer tank, so this isn't something I can comment on. I don't know how much extra performance we'd gain from having one, but we don't have the space, so I guess I'll never know.
3. The previous house owners installed the panels, so I can't really comment on the value aspect. From what I understand, they have a very good payback period after your initial investment compared to other options like PV. I think it's great - with the right settings on the hot water timing, we can largely rely on solar thermal throughout the summer. Even on sunny winter days, it can contribute a surprising amount of hot water. With the addition of a blending valve (see one of my other videos), you can get even more benefit from it. With your buffer tank, you may well do even better.
4. The ASHP has consumed 4944 KwH in the last twelve months heating our house and hot water. I'm expecting/hoping this will drop when we complete our house improvements. Given the fluctuation in electricity costs at the moment, I'll leave you to work out how that compares to yours.
We are having our house accessed for air sauce heating, if the are able to I think I’ll place the water tank in the garage as it would be direct feed so the pressure should get so anywhere in the house no problem. This way we don’t hear the pump running lol. I’ll see what options there is.
In view of your comments I think I might consider the Mitsubishi heat pump, but try and opt for the Mixergy tank system. From what I've read and viewed the Mixergy appears to have much better control functionality. Great review.
Sounds like a good plan. I hope they work well together. Any chance you can keep me/us updated?
Thanks man! Was just about to order a similar Mitsubishi pump but, you made me change my mind :) I'm all after having either, a nice app, or some open APIs to get some automations running. Of course, the unit also is required to be reliable which at least seems to be Mitsubishi's strong characteristic.
There are just so few critical reviews out there.
Hi Pawel, please let me know if you find an overall better unit out there. It may be best to combine the Ecodan with a different smarter controller.... I am planning to move to an Ecodan ASHP this year and this review has made me think twice too.
@Jesse Tindall Hi Jesse!
Last week I had a good conversation with a guy that is services heat pumps for around 2 decades now and he told me that I shouldn't consider anything else than a monoblock unit. The main reason that he gave was the fact that there is gas being transported between in-house and outdoor units under very high pressure. He said it is very hard to get these connections done 100% tightly and it's very often (in around 90% of the split installations) required to refill the gas after the first year of usage already. Lower gas pressure, in turn, causes the compressors to become faulty, these guys are very expensive which may imply the need of spending higher amounts just to get the heat pump working again. All in all, he made me start looking at monoblock units.
Currently, I'm hesitating between Alpha Innotec and Viessman, both are quite expensive :/ and I'm checking whether I can get any of these at a decent price.
@@pawelewandowski2992 thanks for the extra detail. The Ecodan is also a monobloc system and so is it the controls that are making good you look at alternatives? And do you think the alternatives have better controls? Do you have any info or links? Thanks again. 👍
I can recommend the Midea units, I've just had a 12kw installed and it's good points addresses all of the bad points this guy has reeled off! There were a few teething issues but it works perfectly with the Tado thermostat.
I have an ecodan and solar thermal - we have disabled the legionella cycle having seen that solar thermal will get the temperature up high enough on odd days through the winter as well as continuously through the summer. I've never seen a scientific basis for the weekly cycle - but did find research suggesting legionella took 2 years to establish in a domestic HW system, so actually even if you don't it that hot over winter it is probably fine
Interesting. I should look that up.
Thanks for your honest review.
You might find the pumps are loud because of how hard they work with your microbore. Once that is upgraded you can turn them down. We have it in a spare room with two pumps. Can't hear either when you are next to them. It will get better!
All the microbore has gone and it's still noisy!
@@GreenTubers sorry to hear that. Pumps can be quite. I guess how the pump is mounted, all the elbows and things all contribute hope you can get to the bottom it.
Not many HP users also have rooftop solar so Mitsu does not integrate that. It should be something that could be changed with a software update that would use the water temp sensors to record the heat in the cylinder. As for the frost protection, I presume even with the glycol (that breaks down over time) that the 5 deg setting is there as the temp can often fall faster to sub zero. Also this water is flowing very slowly and therefore the water can freeze faster than higher flow water in pipes.
The water tank has fittings and an additional loop to accommodate the solar thermal, so it's very much supported by Mitsubishi, at least from a hardware perspective.
I still haven't come up with a satisfactory answer for the glycol/5 degree noise problem.
Very helpful , I’m an air source heat pump skeptic and live in a very peaceful place with little background noise so I’m not sure I could deal with the sound , sounds like it would be like tinnitus if you live rurally , a bloody annoying pain in the arse
This was more than very useful thank you for your time. At the momment solar thermal seems to be a better option with a larger tank. Either that or all this stuff needs to be in an outside space and just the underfloor heating pipes need to access the house.
Except solar thermal is only useful in colder months. Solar PV can heat the water as well as offset power bills and Solar PV is now cheaper than thermal. In summer you dump the (large) excess power into the water cylinder, in winter you offset your power bill or dump the lot into keeping the water from getting cold
Nice Video Graeme. 👍🏻
Why dont you build a soundproof enclosure for your airing cupboard, solve the noise problem?
There's not much room, but I do plan on installing some sound insulating panels when I find some time.
@Green Tubers your installer hasn't done a good job commissioning your system.
- Your legionella cycle should be turned off based on the information you provided
- Having glycol between the monobloc and the pre-plumbed cylinder means your frost protection can be disabled
- There is a 1-5 pump speed setting in the installer menu, I assume yours is set to 5, dropping it to 4 should make it quieter whilst maintaining an adequate flow rate.
- If you aren't already, I highly recommend switching to a heat curve for your flow temperature, it will give nice performance improvments
Thanks for the review very useful! Just wondered how far from the house your heat pump is? - looks like you have a lot of insulated pipework needed just to get to the house. I will have the same issue with the pump noise from the airing cupboard - good highlight; I will look into having my pumps put elsewhere. I didn't understand the issue with the anti-legionella tank heating; if your solar cells heat the tank to a sufficiently high temperature then the Mitsubishi heating cycle shouldn't even activate because the tank heating sensor will be telling the controller the temperature is already high enough - is that not the case?
Hi Andy,
The heat pump is a few metres from the house. The pipe run goes up the front of the house and in under the roof line so there's probably a total of about 4 or 5 metres of insulated pipework outside.
The legionella cycle only takes the temperature sensor into account while it's running. So if it's already up to temperature, it won't run or try to push it higher. The issue is that it doesn't consider when the last high temperature was, only when the cycle last ran. So if the solar pushes the temperature up high on Tuesday, the legionella cycle will still run on Wednesday regardless, because that's a week since it last ran (assuming it always runs on Wednesdays). If the solar gets the temperature up high enough a couple of times a week (easily possible) then we could skip the legionella cycle entirely. But the British weather isn't regularly and consistently sunny for me to be confident of turning it off myself.
I hope that helps and I've made it clearer.
Thanks!
All your concerns have an answer but there is one: the defrost mode is happen because the evaporator coil behind the pump can freeze at 3 degrees outside temperature, nothing to do with the glycol in the pipes.
Great video! Thank you! Does it make sense in UK , extremely humid climate? I am thinking of getting one (UK)but still researching the subject.
Extremly humidity is a BIG problem for all air to water heat pumps, BIG. Outdoor unit=ice cube for short period during operate=high electricity consumption!
I have just been quoted for 2 Mitsubishi ecodans , may I ask if the software has improved , I would want to fiddle and specify as you clearly want to , however if the controls or software are still poor it’s enough to put me off and maybe look at valiant .
Thanks
Water does freeze from 4 deg Celsius and below
The heat pump does appreciate solar heating. It does heat up from the the current temperature up.
So if there is 200l of 30deg Celsius then heat pump will heat from 30 to 60°C
Insted from 5 ° to 60° (without solar thermal)
Thanks for a sensible and easy to listen to review of ASHPs. I'm just starting to look into it as my LPG boiler is increasingly unpredictable. It's so hard to know who to speak to for site / property specific advice. I'm still not sure if our property is suitable. Could be an expensive mistake!
It's definitely worth considering an ASHP, but you'll also need to look at the fabric of your building and be prepared to make changes. Be wary of basic surveys that make assumptions based on the age of the build. We have discovered insulation in some of the ground floors and some walls where it was assumed we had none. This can have quite an impact, positive in our case.
Maybe you can experiment with the existing boiler and set the 'flow' temperature of the water leaving the boiler to 40 degree C (and pump speed at maximum), and see if that is enough to keep the house warm while the average outside temp is +5 C.
If it turns out you need 50 or even 55 C, consider hunting down draft, poor insulation and see if bigger radiator surface area (more or bigger radiator can give of more power at a given temperature)
The lower 'flow temp' that will keep you satisfied, the more efficient any heat pump will work, and the less electricity it will consume.
Edit: Legionella is a risk, so if you do not know for sure that the hot tap water is heated to high enough temperature set by an other dedicated thermostat (like in "hot water priority") than the one for central heating, only experiment for a short time, like 24 hours or so
@@NikolaiBeier
Why to set maximum speed of pump?
You have only noise in installation in that case.
If you have delta T 3-5°C on medium speed it's perfect and no noise !
I set water pump to 2600 rpm.
@@inspektor. Sorry for not being precise.
It was a simplification regarding the way to experiment (not how to run a system in general, for long periods).
One may need to increase the flow rate (volume per time) to get enough heating power out of the radiators, but how much depends on the individual system.
As you found out, it may be below maximum when the pump can do much more than needed.
Overdoing the pump speed is not a benefit, in general. But if a radiator system cannot deliver enough heat to a building at "low" flow temp even at max pump speed, some things need to be improved, like better insulation and perhaps bigger radiators.
Be very careful setting boiler temperature down to that level. If your existing boiler is old it will be unlikely that is has hot water priority and you will fail to heat up the water to kill legionaries disease. Also if your boiler has a cast iron heat exchanger you DO NOT want it to condense as condensate is acidic and will eat through it. You are also unlikely to save any money doing that since you will be burning the gas for longer.
If you are considering a heat pump then it is VITAL to have the system designed properly. If you don’t then you may well end up with something that will cost you a fortune to run. The critical thing is to get the heat loss calculations right, then size the system.
Check out the heat geek channel, they know their stuff and they train installers so can point you in the right direction.
I’m not affiliated with them in any way and personally I am not going to have a heat pump in my place, but they do make sense in the right situation.
Nice run-through
Interesting points.
I've had a 11.2kW version of this for the last year and a half, and had a similar issue with the circulation pump. Although technically it's nothing to do with the heat pump really.
I ended up relocating the pump 3 times in various places in the house, finally it's now in a sealed metal box on the exterior wall next to the actual heat pump. I think Vaillant incorporate the circulator into the heat pump itself which is the perfect place really. Vibration isolation via the feet and flexi hoses. Ours still whines through the wall a little as it's rigidly mounted but its 90% better than it was bolted to the loft floor directly above our bedroom.
It's mad that installers are even allowed to do this with these powerful pumps.
I agree the app sucks, but actually the platform itself is really good. The API is open so it can be integrated into Home Assistant for monitoring, and the app also runs natively in Windows via the store, and online too it's the same interface. They just need to update it.
The controller on the wall isn't particularly well suited for heating controls because that's the same controller Mitsubishi use for lots of HVAC systems - air recouperation, air to air systems, etc.
But also some of the other brands are so shockingly arcaic it beggars belief.
PS regarding legionella - boosting the tank to 50c in the night is what we do, and as long as that temp is retained for 30 mins it's all it needs. No need to explicitly run legionella protection. In Home Assistant I have an automation which changes the set point to 50c at 2am which is when our EV tarriff starts. After 6am it's down to 44 degrees.
And in the summer, I connect the immersion directly to a PV diverter for hot water, so it thinks it does legionella but doesn't actually.
Thanks for taking the time to write a detailed response.
I hadn't thought about relocating the main pump. It's certainly a possibility and I'll speak to our installers about it.
Do you have a link to the API documentation? I had a look a while ago but I couldn't find anything at the time.
All the best!
@@GreenTubers no problem!
Yeah I'm not 100% sure if having it outside is compliant with regs or warranty or whatnot, but our installer was so uncooperative and we were literally losing sleep, so I just did it. And it works great. No issues 1 year on. Pump is on 'high', flow rate is 17 as reported by the Mitsubishi FTC (running information > 540). It might require a bit of fabrication though, my pipes are suspended as to not transmit too much into the wall, and this needed a lot of fiddly metalwork.
API wise, I use Home Assistant and it has the Melcloud integration - I'm not sure if it's reverse engineered or official, but it works so reliably, i've not had any issues or downtime in 1.5 years so far 👏
Interesting about the pv diverter. My installer said that fitting one invalidates Mitsu’s warranty…I’ve emailed Mitsu to try to get an answer
Maybe a bigger Expansion Vessel could Help with the constant kicking in of those Pumps, or also look at insulation on the Pumps and also within your Press to try to tamper down the humming Sound...
Thanks for the video.
You mentioned the poor controls and bad app, but have you tried the integration with Google Assistant or Alexa?
Additionally, is it possible to use a Nest with one of these?
Do you think soundproofing the cupboard it's in could help with the noise?
We don't have Alexa or similar installed and so I can't comment on their integration. From what I understand it is possible to install a Nest, but only as a remote thermostat rather than taking over complete control.
Line the inside of your airing cupboard with acoustic insulation.
Pardon my technical ignorance on this subject, but as I understand it, the heat pump itself extracts heat from the outside air, correct?
So what if the outside unit was inside a glass box, like a green house? The box would trap the heat from the sun (when it's actually sunny here in the UK!) and the heat pump would then be working in a much warmer environment than simply being exposed to the elements.
Wouldn't that make it run more efficiently and lower ones electric bills?
That isn't such a daft question! Sadly once the heat has been extracted from the surrounding air, its expelled again, much colder. This cold air is expelled quite quickly and would negate any greenhouse type affect which would be much slower. It would also make it harder for the ASHP as any air that it sucked in would be getting colder and colder rather than at ambient temperatures. When you install a unit, there are limits around how close surrounding walls etc can be, to ensure there's enough airflow so it's always getting fresh air instead of recycling its own cooled air. I hope that makes sense.
@@GreenTubers Ahh interesting, yea it does, thanks. So it's a bit like a fridge, but in reverse.
I wonder if there's a way around this, though
I watch a lot of videos on home made/DIY solutions to heating rooms or outside buildings and one of simple and very cheap home made ways to heat them is to construct a solar air heater panel. Basically the same idea as a green house, you have a tall 5ft-6ft panel filled with black aluminium cans or something like that.
If you hooked up one of those to the intake of an air source heat pump, then the air drawn in would pass through these heat absorbing cans, raising the temperature of the air that's drawn in. (Assuming the sun is out, but they work to a lesser degree even with light cloud.)
Example of what I mean by a solar air heater is here - ruclips.net/video/SniCLlTIIAs/видео.html
Even in snowy conditions these simple devices are able to pump out very warm air, when the sun is out at least.
A huge thank you for being so honiest about your system. What was your bills like for winter months, was hot water OK enough for home.
There has always been plenty of hot water. Heating could have been better, but only on the coldest of days. I'm expecting this to change when we finish our modifications. The things we've already done have already had a noticeable improvement. The bills have been a bit high over winter, but not eye-wateringly so. Again, this will change.
@@GreenTubers I am waiting for the high temperature modles to appear as they claim its a straight swap for a combi boiler. We are in the process of going back in time and fitting secondary glassing to our home which already has k glass on the double glazed windows. A freind did this and it was a massive differance. Fingers crossed as we need to cut back on our bills to run ours.
Good luck with the ‘high temperature modules’ to replace a combi boiler.
I’m still waiting for someone to explain the physics involved with that. An ASHP is very old technology, 60 years or more depending on where you draw your line.
We can have high temp heat pumps now, you just have to find a way of paying for all the electricity they use. Heat pumps work best on a warm day in a warm house. Add high electricity costs if you are unfortunate enough to live in a country with high costs of generation and it is looking scary.
@@gino2465 Best you could hope for (in the UK at least) is for the government to stop subsidizing domestic gas. If they just tax gas instead of electricity, current heat pumps on the market will become efficient enough without any need for further technological innovation. Sale prices of heat pumps would probably then increase so government intervention will be needed there as well. We don't use heat pumps due to lack of political will (lobbying and straight up corruption essentially).
@@m23605 my neighbour just had a heat pump fitted weeks ago and the engineers have been back 6 times already as heating issues..he has just purchased to calor gas heaters to supplement the loose of heat he had from his oil system
There is the open therm non propriety weather comp protocol that should be available for all manufacturers to use. Whether they do install or apply it is another matter.
You could switch the legionella off completely for the summer. I have a copper hwc which in itself controls legionella so my legionella cycle has never been on. The instructions manual is like any software manual, it tells you all the functions but not how to integrate them. I have a time of use electricity tariff which is 7.5p for 6 hours overnight. At that price I don’t care about the COP. It took me some time to find the riming settings so that hot water is only produced at night. Similarly between March and October most of the heating is done overnight with solar gain normally taking us through the rest of the day. Given the slow delivery of heat it is best to run it over the full 24 hours in winter. Finally your pump should be silent. Quite possibly some swarf has damaged the bearing? Or the pipe work isn’t designed to smooth out the flow. A design fault.
Thanks for sharing interesting review. Circulation pumps are usually quite quiet so it could be to do with where & how they are mounted & you might be able to move them . Or are they vibrating on something?? Good point about not needing heat up to 60 if the solar has done it , Can you not just switch that feature off for the summer ?
Good points!
The pumps are attached directly to the cylinder, with all of the connecting pipework in place when it was delivered. I don't think there is a great deal we can do to improve the anti-vibration properties, although I'll definitely take a look.
We could turn off the Legionnaires' disease prevention feature, but I'm not confident of at least one sunny day through the English summer!
I need to ask why the pumps are running at night when your set temperature at night should be alot lower. I would also wonder why the pump is so loud. From the image, its grundfoss as very well known pump supplier and I have a similar one in my home. Its noisy . However doing some research since, Grundfoss offers the same pumps in a much quieter version and any pump should be installed against some vibration dampening material (cork etc) and they can be covered to dampen some of the exterior sound emitted. Perhaps you should consider adding some noise dampening material to the boiler door.
As for external HP eyesore. Well if you live anywhere warm, the exterior Aircon units are a total eyesore. You might ask Mitsubishi, if the exterior can be painted (most of it is metal) to blend into your background. I presume the creme colour is not used for a strategic-design efficiency reason. In your case then it could be painted the red-brick colour or black/dark green.
It's set to off during the night, so it's only the frost protection mechanisms and legionnaire protection that run at night (and make a noise).
I'm actually quite happy with the exterior unit in terms of its appearance.
@@GreenTubers are you saying the external unit powers up overnight. If so seems strange as the fluid in a HP is not water nor does it mix with your domestic water so why worry about legionnaire protection. The temp in winter would have to be regularly falling below zero (and the liquid in hp has an even lower freezing point) to kick in for frost protection. These are used un scandanavia, so are they less concerned about overnight noise? Unless their homes have better noise insulation as part of their winter protection
Hope the market for them becomes more competitive.
the important for me is the noise after the heat but looks like I have to cancel mine before hear the annoying sound at night. obviously, like any other products are injected by someone who knows someone and got permission to bring these without matching the device with the UK living and environment. like the Renault car, the engine wasn't working in damp air.
I have thermomax solar HW panels now 20yrs old. Cost £3500 in 2000. A 45m2 conservatory £40,000. These cover most of the year for space and water heating. A wood burner, electric underfloor heating and LPG boiler as a last resort. How much was the heat pump?
Total cost for the heat pump, tank and installation was just over £12k. After grants (some of which are paid back over time), the total cost to us is much lower.
I've just released a new video that goes over our facts and figures. ruclips.net/video/GU1cx8908b4/видео.html
@@GreenTubers do you mind revealing which company you used? I am looking for a second quote. Concerned that my elderly mum, who always wants to be green (first gen prius, solar panels etc etc) is being taken for a ride. Her quote is £18K for a 4-bed 2 bath terrace house. She cannot get a second company to quote for some reason. I am sure prices have increased due to the mess the world is in but it seems steep to me and i) to be blunt she is not going to be around long enough to see back her investment and ii) I don't think it would add that much value to a home. I think she should do internal thermal cladding to exterior walls (no cavity construction) as she has retro fitted window seals etc already.
@@yolliedolly We used Caplor Energy
Hello.
Any chance of an update?😊
we have an Mitsubishi Ecodan heat source pump. Very expensive to run, so expensive we have completely turned it off. The company that installed it says that it should cycle on and off 24 hours a day even when the timer for the hot water and central heating is not calling for heat, I cannot believe that to be right. What would the reason be for it to come on at 4am on a summers morning? Not sure our central heating has glycol in the pipes, I'd be very surprised if they do.
With you on the internal pump noise Vs the outdoor unit everyone is worried about
Well done, thanks
Thanks for the vid. I went with Daikin Altherma 3H HT over a Mitsubishi. Single fan, rather than double. Will the Ecodan run just one fan if it doesn’t need full power? We went with a Mixergy hot water cylinder, rather than Daikin’s own. Daikin doesn’t have an app (unless I paid an extra £150 for some online module). I’m using Nest currently to thermostat for a year. Before switching to weather compensation to compare. My pump is in the utility room boiler cupboard (used to have an oil boiler) but it doesn’t seem noisy. Also my system runs water in the external pipes. Not glycol. I think I’m at an SCOP of about 3.22. Using 48% less electric than MCS prediction. So very pleased with my ASHP installation. I’m glad yours is working out.
It depends on the size of your property if you need a double fan or single fan unit, we have the double fan Zubadan unit and yes both fans work at the same time. Before we viewed our present property to buy we viewed another property which was about 3700 square feet internal living space, they had a double fan unit and single fan unit or two heat source pumps working in conjunction with each other. Due to the size of the property a large double fan unit wouldn’t have been sufficient to heat the house and hot water.
Nice review dude. What's the running cost vs gas?
We were on oil rather than gas, so it was comparatively expensive anyway. Gas isn't available in our area. It's been a bit more expensive than oil, but I'm expecting this to change a lot when we complete our home improvements. I wouldn't go back!
Soundproof cylinder cupboard and door to combat noise
I've just released a new video that goes over our facts and figures. ruclips.net/video/GU1cx8908b4/видео.html
heatpumps have come along way in the last 20 years,still alittle way to go.i live a area that gets well below freezeing and i work on heat pumps.in cold climates haveing multiple outdoor units,[condenser /evaporator] absorbing heat or extracting heat can be cheaper and benificial.two 3ton indepedant units versas,1 6ton unit outside with several heads inside can cost more.then when it breaks down atleast you still have heat.all heating systems make noise ,buy some sound deading insulation.for safty i like to tell customers to keep old system operational for back up,or when really cold winter conditions come around.doing doing somewhat of a hybred type thing.it depends on your climate.i live in newengland usa,most winters see temps -40 with windchills,two month's mostly below freezeing.
14kW ASHP does seem OTT, might your ASHP be over-speced causing the problems ie cycling, just a thought.
Thanks very much for so much information, can you suggest alternative to mitsubishi .
I am in the process of getting quotes. Daikin what are your thought?
Sorry but I haven't researched other manufacturers. I'm not so dissatisfied that I would consider paying to swap mine out.
Our ECODan is very quiet. We don’t know if it is on if we stand close
Is that both inside and out?
@@GreenTubers yes. System set up with 300l insulated tank, underfloor heating. We have to look at the dials to see if it is on
@@GreenTubers we also have radiators in whole house; slight gurgle cured by bleeding; we have to touch them or look at thermostat to see if they are on
@@GreenTubers outside we have to stand close to hear if it is working. We have 11kW model; yours is 2 x 7kW which may be older design (not sure).
Neighbour (normally a fusspot) didn’t know it was there until we told her
Yeah pump must be faulty. I don’t hear mine at all, though it’s an enclosed unit, looks like a big white refrigerator.
Check out Heat Geek on RUclips, my friend has a EcoDan and he had the same problem with the pump until he had it serviced by Mitsubishi. Make sure the heat pump isn't running at full speed, it needs to be set to weather compensation. Poor installers turn these settings off.
Wondering if it would be a good idea to build a sort of greenhouse around the unit with white walls to maximize the "external" temperature? Ideally south facing.
With all the airflow from the unit, I don't think you'd get much benefit from any heat reflected back from nearby walls.
Great review! We are getting Samsung one, does anyone know if they are any good? Can't find any reviews!
I hear that you should put underfloor heating downstairs and rads upstairs. Underfloor saves energy as it creates warm surfaces and cooler air so less stuffy and more comfortable. Heat is where you want it too.
That's exactly what we plan to do, other than we'll have underfloor heating instead of a radiator in the upstairs bathroom. Mostly because it will feel nice when you're wandering around with bare feet!
It’s a legal requirement that legionella cycle must run , I’m not sure if the Mitsubishi has the ability to read in solar thermal readings , but it should have some sort of feedback from the hot water tank temp to register if it’s up to temp already , if any Plummer out there can confirm if I’m right or if some sensors need to be added to feed back to the echodan
I haven't turned the cycle off, I just wish it was smarter and didn't run when there's no need.
@@GreenTubers right there should be a heat sensor Wire from thermostat on cylinder if fitted or 3rd party heat probe this should have been fitted to prevent overheating cycle which in tern turns off the echodan,( there should be a lead going from the hot water cylinder to the echodan if it’s not fitted then call your installer and demand it to be done properly ) it up to temp already from additional solar thermal if correctly setup it shouldn’t run period if up to temps to kill legionella, ideally 5 minutes minimum is all it needs to kill (well 3 mins but add 2 mins for seasonal difference) this can be lowered in the built in menu if left on default it will run for 30 mins
"on the coolest days its not so good " surely thats when you need heat !!!
True. In those conditions it just needs a little help. We run the wood burner in one room and it's enough to provide a small top up. When we finish sorting out the fabric of the house, that should no longer be needed.
Did you think about a sunamp instead of the cylinder?
Ooh, interesting. I haven't seen those before, so I didn't consider them. With ours, the cylinder and heat pump are sold as a package, although it's probably possible to buy them separately. I only really considered them as a package though.
We've been recommended the 14kW one because we have 2 floors (ground, first and second floors), wondering if this is better than the Samsung with Homely, which apparently can heat the water at up to 70 degrees. How does this compare in running costs compared to a gas boiler? What is it set-up for 22 degrees or more? To me nice and warm means I can take my jacked off and stay in my t-shirt and shorts, that's how I ran my gas boiler for the last 10+ years.
To big and unecessary.. calculate your properties heat loss requirements to size the heat pump.. low flow temperature for longer periods.. higher flow rates effect scop, again unnecessary.. as long as the house properly insilated and draught proofed and your pipework aint microbore or undersized rads itl work perfectly (consider a good installer)
@@ciaranclose192 We got the Samsung 12kW HT one. But I am not happy so far, and our electric bills has been between £450 and £500 since October. I was going to make a video about our experience. Right now I will tell everyone to stay away from heat pumps. The way it is going, we may see the next mis selling scandal. Honestly I would jump on that the moment it happens. The whole installation cost £23k.
With your knowledge now, what system would you get? 🤔
Good question. I have no intention of changing our unit, so I've not bothered reviewing the market to see what else is available. I'm still very happy to have ASHP in general, so I'd definitely go that route again. But I would approach any supplier with questions about noise, location and how 'smart' any device is.
@@GreenTubers cheers, I just bought a house that needs a full renovation apparently I can get a £10k for a ASHP, I don't have the space for the cylinder so may need to build an extension for it 🤷♂️
What’s the running cost I have been thinking about changing my oil boiler to a heat pump
I'm hoping to release another video shortly which will cover all my costs in detail. The short version is that it's a bit more expensive that oil was, but that's running on our old radiators and pipework. When we change these, I expect my costs to drop. I wouldn't go back!
Thanks yea I have major renovation so will be changing all the pipe work and having underfloor heating ground floor and 1st floor plus the price of oil keeps going up thanks for your reply
It's out! ruclips.net/video/GU1cx8908b4/видео.html
How long have you had that system ? It’s on R22 from the label which is a banned refrigerant here in the UK and has not been used in Heat Pumps for nearly 20 years. The efficiency of these systems is not that great.
It's using R32, not R22. Although I wouldn't know the difference!
@@GreenTubers Crap eye sight just had a better look, R32 it is my apologies.
How much is your monthly electricity bill?
I have a 'Facts and figures' video which details some of the running costs. With the instability of electricity prices in the UK, I'm not sure a monthly £ figure would be very useful though.
Newbee question : how did you integrate a solar panel in your system ?
The solar panels aren't directly integrated into the ASHP. They're just the standard sort that you find on roofs normally (although ours are in our field). The power is fed into our house circuit and if we don't use it, it feeds back to the grid.
The pumps are loud because of the resistance in the system, your pipes are probably too small, creating resistance in the system thus noise, nothing to do with MItsubishi, it’s your system.
Thanks, consumption in kwh per month?
I'm planning to do a follow up which goes through all the figures, so please keep an eye out for that.
@@GreenTubers Thanks, for decembar 2022, LG Split 16kw Therma V eat 2300kwh, 15 radiators type 22 and house 230m2, no need buffer. Now i plan to replace some old radiators with new type 33 and +15cm knauf more on roof isolation...flow temperature is set by smart "curve" depending of outside air temperature. Flow temperature is 32°C - 43°C with delta T about 3°C. Room temperature is stabil 24-25°C.
No mention of cost or running costs ?
Given that our radiators and pipes are far from ideal, I didn't think it was fair to go into detail with figures. I am keeping a record though and I plan to do something in future showing what difference it makes once we have switched to low temperature radiators and underfloor heating. (Assuming it does make a difference!)
I ise mine for hot water and underfloor heating and so far until now, from May until mid Oct, its cost me on average 60p a day. Winter time I expect that to go up to 1.20-1.50. Cheap considering the present cost of electricity.
I sat and worked some figures out, each radiator in my home is roughly 1.7 kw so if I have to double them each one would be 3.4 kw, so 13 radiators x3.4 is 44kw output needed to maintain my heat. They claim that it’s 3kw output for 1kw going in so rounding up needs 15kw per hour to run so that’s two systems to generate this , cost over 25k install , and this is a quote I had but the missing part, they have to run 24/7 to run so 15kw per hour at .20 per unit of electricity so that’s £3 per hour x24 hours running £72 per day, £504 per weeks 2k per month so five months average heating 10k , so how do I save here compared to my current gas of £500 for the same period and £300 for electricity?
I think your maths is a bit flawed.
Firstly, low temp radiators are larger to take into account the reduced temperature of the water so you end up with the same heat output. You therefore don't have to double that number.
Secondly, you're working on the heat output running at max all the time, which won't be the case. ASHPs do work better when they run all the time, but they should only be running at a very low level to provide a constant top-up most of the time. It's like trying to work out the MPG of your car by assuming you're always on the autobahn with your foot flat to the floor.
You'll get a much more accurate figure by calculating the heat loss for your property. That will allow you to work out how much energy an ASHP would need to output in order to keep you toasty and warm. You'll probably need to get a professional in to do that though. If you've had an EPC done recently, that will include a rough figure for space heating. They tend to make all sort of assumptions, so take that figure with a large pinch of salt. You can find yours here - www.gov.uk/find-energy-certificate.
Ours gives a figure of 25662 kWh per year, which equates to around 70 kWh heat output per day. If yours is similar, and assuming pessimistic COP of 2 times, you'd use 35 kWh per day, on average. In reality, we only use that amount of energy on the coldest days and most of the time it's much less. Our average over the last 12 months is less that 10 kWh per day. Way less than your figure of 15 kWh per hour.
Hope that helps
Been looking inti a heat pump but looks like a lot of the negatives are true
I'm not sure I'd really call them negatives. It's just differences in the way an ASHP works, which can become a negative if not handled properly. I would definitely choose to have an ASHP again if I had the opportunity.
UK Homeowners,
If you are thinking of swapping your gas boiler out for an ASHP, please do your homework. Don't fall for the SCOPs that EU manufacturer's state on their product brochures. You'll be disappointed.
The SCOPs are definitely achievable, but only with the right radiators or other heat emitters. You shouldn't take the figures for granted, but it's not entirely wishful thinking either.
What country do you live in because minus 15 is very common in britain
I'm in the UK, in south Herefordshire
Where is Britain does it get to minus 15 Deg c ?
In the north of scotland we were working in loch carron and it was common to be minus 12 plus in the mornings
Vaillant is better.. probly more expensive but you get what you pay for these days
Not a fan of Mitzi. Their claims of scop etc don’t seem to add up to me
My review after 8 years. Its shit and expensive and I'm always freezing and my electric bill is now almost 400 a month and I live in a tiny 2 bedroom bungalow.
Sorry to hear that Sara. Have you tried to figure out why it's underperforming? Is it the heat pump setup or the fabric of the house?
So much non relevant talk and rattling on. Please understand how MUCH info you’re bringing on!
You've just sold me not to buy Mitsubishi. 👍
But hopefully not the idea of a heat pump!
are we really going to be forced to install these monstrosities in our homes
who voted for this
Despite my complaints, I actually rather like mine.
@@GreenTubers
That's no problem for some people air and ground source heat pumps are great
It's just people are being sold the idea that pump systems are just a straight swop for there gas and oil boilers this is clearly not the case
Perhaps the government should just slow down a bit.