I've long been a huge fan of this approach - everyone wins (except maybe traffic light and other such road furniture manufacturers). I hope it spreads like wildfire throughout the world.
Ed, right, but we have a battle on our hands. Most public money is in the hands of people whose vested interest is the maintenance of the current system of control. The forces of reaction are powerful
If Doris Day, likes it, I like it. Here in downtown Buenos Aires, some streets are being converted into shared space. Curbs have disappeared and zones are marked by different colored pavement. There are some additional elements, like small columns to avoid parking, since motorists here are notoriously unconcerned by regulations. But I lived downtown for 20 years and I can't recognize those streets now. They seem drab and dark even when empty, on weekends, now they look wide and sunlit. And quiet. People and cars mingle and nobody honks, though a street down it is bedlam. It really, really, works.
I use this junction maybe five times a year as a car driver. When the traffic flow has been light it's very pleasant. At rush hour I felt the queues were worse for cars(ok, maybe that's not a bad thing!) I think mainly because some drivers , like the car coming from the left at 8:22 , are overly cautious and the flow isn't as efficient as it could be. I've used it once as a pedestrian. It felt a bit odd but traffic , which was already moving at a very modest pace, adjusted their speed to give way. They didn't actually have to stop. I think that keeps a momentum up. Some motorists must get frustrated and accelerate hard off the roundabout but it felt like a minority ,,, and overall it is a much more relaxed atmosphere than when there were traffic lights.
I wonder how much time it adds to a commute. Once the road opens up again to two or three lanes, don't you just speed along until the next congestion? Unless of course it is the only spot you ever slow down.
@@carlporter My thoughts exactly. But I once arrived at the junction from one of the lesser roads at rush hour. The queue was about 300m and took about ten minutes. I'd avoid it in the future if I remember! If there was an accepted 'zipper' \ merge in turn they'd work better. In the rush hour the stream was so continuous in one direction of the major road that there was rarely a gap for traffic on the lesser road.
@@richH1625 Zipper merge defined here: ruclips.net/video/cX0I8OdK7Tk/видео.html&ab_channel=AlbertaMotorAssociation That would be teaching people road etiquette. I can see how that would help to keep all cars in motion, albeit very slowly. To calculate the time difference, you'd have to know how long the traffic lights used to hold the traffic, and then can you get through on the second or third cycle? Very interesting, thanks.
The lesson for me is that when you remove restrictions from humans they become nicer to each other and accept responsibility. In a world heading towards ever more digital control and questionable rules this is a great example to how we CAN all co-exist. I use the junction regularly and love it as a pedestrian, a driver and as a cyclist. Freedom wins! Every time I drive in Poynton I naturally make eye contact with pedestrians. I enjoy giving way and the appreciation that comes back in return is amazing - surely a lesson to town planners who just want to demonize car drivers. Pedestrians and drivers really smile at each other which makes it a happier village. Well done. (PS yes I admit - I was slightly cynical during the roadworks!). The major challenge will be to maintain the safe flat cobbled / brick surfaces.
Thanks Steve. I've been banging on about this for over two decades, to TV and radio commissioning editors, newspaper editors (occasionally they commmission an article), councillors, traffic managers, roads ministers. Most of the time it's like banging my head against a brick wall. At my website/blog, Equality Streets, is a contact email if you'd like to be in touch.
In answer to the question: No, the available space on that part of the pavement is not "shared" but clearly set aside for car parking. I was just suggesting that as this is not shared the carefully separated footways and roads would have been perfectly complemented by separated cycle lanes. Sorry for the delay replying, I don't want a bunfight over the merits of the scheme, which works well on the quieter shopping section in Park Lane and works well for motorised traffic flow and pedestrians.
Great piece Martin. This just shows that drivers and pedestrians can co-exist and share the same space. I hope to see more of this throughout the world.
I took the National Highway Institute (US) two day course on Applying Flexibility in Highway Design this week. They used this video as a case study. I understand they are in the process of building the relief road. It would be interesting to revisit after the bypass opens.
I work for Free Wheel North, the Glasgow based special needs cycling and access charity. We work with thousands of people with additional mobility needs. Poynton village is an exemplar of how things should be, combining human access rights with a vast increase in quality of life and safety. We are advocating similar changes to the town of Kirkintilloch near Glasgow. Once people see it action they usually can see how shared space works. This is a return to public space for people, the foundation of civilisation as it evolved over thousands of years. Contemporary examples regenerate community rich in shops, cafes, post offices pubs; the fabric of village, town or city life. This was how it was before cars destroyed all our urban spaces. We visited Poynton and sent a small boy across the main junction without hesitation. No problem. See youtube clip Poynton Village shared space Free Wheel North.
+norman armstrong Please explain why, in Poynton, most cyclists avoid the road and use the pavement. That usually means they are frightened of using the road.
+norman armstrong Please explain why, in Ashford, 91% of women were afraid of the shared space, and the more people used the shared space, the more they wanted it changed. Don't trust me, don't trust people that make money out of installing shared space schemes, do trust disinterested observations of what happens in the real world. See, for example, eprints.uwe.ac.uk/17937/ "The authors conclude that some of the claims made on behalf of shared space have overstated the available evidence", which is fighting talk in that context!
+Tom Gardner. Cyclists don't avoid the roads in Poynton, as indeed the video I made at Poynton proves. Tiny cyclists use the pavement, as they do everywhere, which is good. Regarding the vested interest argument, one should look to the multi-trillion pound business of selling speed, cars, traffic lights, oil and traffic engineering. My organisation provides more activity for the disabled than any other in Scotland and we are a voice for shared space and its link to human rights. Shared space is the birthright of all human beings and existed for at least 10,000 years, until the motor business systematically removed it during the last 100 years. The fear of shared space is interesting. It's a function of institutionalisation. Freedom is terrifying if you are not used to it. People come out of prison unable to cope with decision making due to never exercising any autonomy. Everyday tasks cause great anxiety. In street life we have become inured to machine control, herded like cattle and diverted away from desire lines. Navigational ability atrophies and replaced with terror. Once 'they' have us in the grip of fear in its easy to remove our human right to move freely and our will to move is ceded to the traffic light, kerb, railing and barrier. Shared Space reinstates the right to freedom of movement and individual autonomy: you have the ability and right to cross anywhere and anywhen. Fear of freedom is the psychological barrier to shared space. But that fear has no basis in reality, for it removes the greatest threat to safety in modern life: speeding traffic.
+norman armstrong Please read what I *actually* wrote. Whenever I have been to Poynton the *majority* of the cyclists have *illegally* been on the *pavement* with pedestrians. Most of the cyclists on the road were lycra-clad "dedicated" cyclists. Those on the pavement were exclusively "normal" people in everyday clothes.
+norman armstrong Your philosophical claptrap about institutionalisation (etc) is demonstrably false. (1) the more people used Ashford, the more they wanted changes. In other words, familiarity breeds fear of shared spaces. (2) desire lines were *not* followed; people huddled against the edges out of fear! (3) The majority of people, and 91% of women, felt anxious there. Take the trouble to read the UWE report eprints.uwe.ac.uk/17937/ and you will see how "unusual" your viewpoint is.
I visited Poynton in 2013 and witnessed the best example of how deregulation can build a caring, supportive and collaborative society; and it involves cars!!! Poynton is typical of small high street towns in the north of England, it was a mining town originally and eventually became part of the greater Manchester conurbation. The main high street is a major trunk road ( A road) with a steady stream of N/S traffic. Also typical of many UK high streets, the shops have struggled and many were closing down due to the GFC and general poor environment. Low a miracle.....someone was inspired to sort it out from an urban design point of view and develop a deregulated, uncontrolled shared surface concept. The local council and the transport authorities embraced the idea and had the courage to say yes!! This as many know is not a new idea, but one that is hard to get over the line especially in Australia!! I see this as much more than a great example of excellent urban design or even social engineering. It is a metaphor for how we should be approaching many issues in society, in health, education, housing. Let us remove the burden of control and regulation which breeds expectations that, somehow it is someone else’s responsibility to manage the individuals interaction with their environment and within their community. We have all to varying degrees abdicated responsibility for our own actions, There is clearly another way to get us Poynton in the right direction. Australia should look and learn David Bagshaw -architect change by design
Thanks Martin. I have nothing but praise for the film and the whole project. Thats why I put the inverted commas around 'marketing' - it's probably not the word I was looking for. I think the film is brilliant in presenting the problem/solution in a very effective way (the opening sequence traffic noise, whilst emotive, is so indicative of much of our daily lives). I'm a cyclist, a pedestrian, a motorist and a regular train user and now inspired once again by a little section of our populace.
It would be really nice to see some footage of the intersection now that the relief road has been opened for a while. I assume traffic in the center is less busy now? Especially less large trucks?
I started watching with the attitude of "this is an accident waiting to happen", but I'm very impressed by it. It is true...a green light at a junction is almost a sign to say "It's your turn - get through as fast as you can, nothing is going to happen", yet when the lights are down everyone creeps through, checking all around them and being extra spacially aware. I cycle through Chorlton and Salford most days and constantly feel like I'm on borrowed time. We need more of these.
Brilliant. The scheme we have waited for in the UK and that should be the tipping point for UK Shared Space street design. Other schemes have had the distraction of minor flaws. Poynton benefits from the perfect storm: having and wanting to do something, appointing a great designer with clear vision, a supportive highway authority and especially a politician with the drive to push it through. Lucky to have all four.Great detailing. Inclusion of non-priority 'roundels was a work of genius! Bravo!
No, this is the best that can be done with the narrow Park Lane road, but there's no pretending the provision along London Road or Chester Road wouldn't have been better for cyclists-particularly children- if the segregated narrow vehicle lanes had been accompanied by protected cycle lanes. Cycling that section when it's quiet in the evening and you're the only obstacle to an aggressive motorist is not "congenial". I'm a huge fan of the scheme, this is just honest experience.
Mr. Cassini, Youll be happy to hear that your approach to a more social and common sense traffic operation is being utilized in two different complex cross streets in Long Beach, Ca. If it can be done in the US; it can be done anywhere. Good day.
Are there any pavements in the meaning of the Highway Code clause 145? If so, where do they begin/end? (Of course, shared spaces *require* that it is ambiguous, and frequently drivers do cross what I would think of as the pavement.)
Ben Hamilton-Baillie Thank you. Of course the kerbs are smaller and easier to cross than many of the ruts/potholes now found in many roads :( Also blind people that have been to Poynton cannot use the kerbs and find Poynton "horrendous" and "impossible". See the Walthew House Newsletter issues 8, 9, 10 for the full context.
Martin Cassini Please do post the URL containing the entire unedited conversation; it has been 5 months since the conversation which seems to have included Kay Kelly's comment "I'm sorry Martin, but your reply just underlines your lack of knowledge about visual impairment."
Hi Martin! I'm from Brigham Young University-Hawaii's University Communications department. May we have your permission to use your video for a public university lecture?
Poynton, Cheshire. My partner and I went to see this groundbreaking shared space scheme for ourselves yesterday and were completely blown away. The gently flowing traffic meandered calmly through the junction with only three minor instances of irritability in 45 minutes. It was mesmerising. All traffic deferred to pedestrians and, even though the volume of traffic was very high, the slow speed and consequent low noise, together with the greenery, paving and absence of signage, created an attractive and inviting streetscape that the locals we spoke to told us had made a significant difference to the pedestrian footprint for businesses on the junction. I’m more than ever convinced that this type of scheme could revolutionise Hereford.
Tom Gardner Thanks Tom. I've read the report and can't say I'm surprised to read that higher volumes and speeds result in greater driver hostility and reluctance to give way to pedestrians or that pedestrians go the long way round to avoid traffic or comments like "Across most of the sites, pedestrians gave way to vehicles more often than vice versa". In fact none of the report's findings are surprising but that's a reason for refining the concept rather than binning it, surely? Shared space is not a panacea but, having visited The Netherlands on two separate study trips, it's clear that it does work in the Home Zones. I don't think we should allow the perfect to the enemy of the good. We've had fifty years of designing pedestrians and cyclists off the network and encouraging motorists to bully them and Rome wasn't dismantled in a day. Whatever the concerns about imbuing the concept of shared space with all sorts of objectives and capabilities that its original authors never envisaged or intended, it has to be an improvement on the grim reality of British urban spaces as they stand. If nothing else it sets us on the right trajectory. It kickstarts the long and painful process of dismantling the now deeply entrenched assumption that motorists have priority on the street and it's just up to everyone else to keep out of the way and, more disturbingly, the trend in thinking that cyclists who don't venture out in full Kevlar are somehow "asking for it". I don't really understand why we're constantly going round this loop. Why aren't we just cherry picking the ideas that work elsewhere? In Hereford, I sense so much driver hostility and resentment that I've pretty much stopped cycling but with a likely change of political control on the horizon, we could see some radical changes soon. Quite exciting.
Amanda Martin I broadly agree with your measured thoughtful reply. I believe that shared spaces do have some benefits - as well as problems. What do I fight against is the stated position that shared spaces are good everywhere, that they don't bring *new* problems, and that if they are introduced everything will automatically be sweetness and light (e.g. see Martin Cassini' statements here and aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2014/06/16/poynton/ ). It is necessary for shared space advocates to address the fact that in Poynton the majority of cyclists *choose* to cycle *illegally* on the pavements, not on the road - presumably they don't feel "equal enough" with the HGVs. (I'm particularly sensitive to this since last Wednesday a cyclist on the pavement clipped my crutches, almost sending me flying and back into hospital.) It is also necessary to decide whether it is acceptable to design features which *actively* *exclude* the disabled. Blind people, despite multiple tries, say Poynton is "horrendous" and "impossible". Neither they nor their guide dogs can spot the edge of the pavement - which frightens them and the motorists. See the Walthew House Newsletter, or any of the organisations representing blind people. The points in the UWE report that surprised me was the proportion of people that felt unsafe (91% of women), the more people used it the more they wanted it changed, and that in general shared space activists overstated the available evidence. Any responsible person will recognise that any solution has disadvantages as well as advantages, and won't simply ignore the problems.
Tom Gardner Yes I agree with that, particularly your points in relation to cycling and folk with disabilities and that was the one qualm I had on seeing the Poynton scheme. As a traffic engineering measure that keeps traffic flowing at a civilised pace and manages hostility, it's excellent but apart from the tangential benefits that arise from reducing speed, it doesn't level the playing field between traffic and other road users. In Hereford if It's Our County win the election, we're going to be starting from scratch in May to undo decades of crass engineering by the Council and, unhelpfully, from the Highways Agency in late 2013. There will be a lot of debate about what we do and what we do first. It's going to be emotional.
Amanda Martin You might like to consider that shared space proponents often use the beguiling mantra “dangerous is very safe”, and use it to “justify” removing standard safety features that drivers expect will warn them of danger. Almost all - but not all - people entering a reduced demarcation zone will become anxious and slow down - that was exactly my reaction when I unwittingly entered the Poynton scheme before I even knew shared spaces existed. But that reaction critically relied on *all* these preconditions being true: 1) *seeing* that it isn't normal, and/or seeing vehicles behaving unexpectedly 2) *recognising* that danger 3) *reacting* correctly and slowing down Unfortunately we've all seen many examples where those preconditions are broken, e.g. driver adjusting audio system, driver chatting to passengers, driver using cellphones, poor visibility in bad weather or at night, driver drunk or otherwise under the influence, driver deliberately being reckless due to excess testosterone or showing off, driver just inexplicably stupid Sure, those are all “driver errors”, but so what? In each case the consequence is that “*dangerous* *is* *dangerous*”! Any responsible scheme should be designed presuming such “non-ideal” driver behaviour will occur, and include design features that minimises both the probability and the consequences.
Hello Martin I work for Active Cheshire. We are the Lead Body for Physical Activity and Sport in Cheshire and Warrington. We really love your example of what has happened in Poynton and would like to feature it as an great exemplar of Active Design working in a busy transport environment. Could this be okay to use and share your video please? Aiden Wilkinson - Active Cheshire.
Makes sense, I used to commute into Liverpool city center, one my easiest journeys was when there was a blanket failure of the traffic lights, the tailbacks that usually stretched from the tunnel entrance right round the city where gone, people just found there way through.
Very well done Poynton! Public space is for people and their chosen method of using it should not confer advantage nor disadvantage. Stage one in creating a better world.
Martin, Loved the video and the concept. Hoping cities in the US can follow this example...though it would definitely require a reversal of current trends. My question for you is: are there any metrics taken from Poynton before and after the change (average time to navigate the intersection, average speed of moving cars, average number of pedestrians, and safety statistics)? The video alludes to all of those aspects, but didn't present any stats.
The best statistics that I have seen are for a different shared space scheme. You may find them enlightening - I and others have. See the PDF of the full peer-reviewed report at eprints.uwe.ac.uk/17937/
Oh yes, a couple of other points worth making. Firstly the majority of cyclists in Poynton choose to cycle illegally on the pavements. Yesterday lunchtime a pavement cyclist clipped one of my crutches, very nearly sending me flying and seriously injuring me. Secondly for blind people it is "horrendous" and they are completely excluded: neither they nor their dogs can tell where the pavement ends and the road begins, so they accidentally wander into traffic.
Seth J. Alberty Seth, I only just saw your post. I know of no studies along the lines you enquired about. All I know is that under standard traffic control, the accident record was poor. Since the scheme opened, there have been no personal injuries or accidents to speak of. To the best of my knowledge, the complaints in the above replies to your posts are exaggerated or unfounded.
Seth J. Alberty Learn from Portishead's 5 years of experience. The pedestrian lights are being *reinstated*, and they are planning to *reverse* the other so-called improvements. Why? To improve safety, reduce waiting times, and reduce the near misses. For a more nuanced description, see www.northsomersetmercury.co.uk/Peak-time-traffic-lights-return-Cabstand-resort/story-26266061-detail/story.html Shared spaces have their place, but they aren't the panacea that some dreamers claim. I'll be interested to see how shared space advocates spin this!
Inspiring. The film has answers not just in relation to how we can radically improve traffic & improve safety, but profound implications in re-learning how to relate & communicate. If we can get people to understand what 'shared space' really means, then the implications are wider than traffic concerns alone; in cities where we all share space, each individual's part can be realised, with the awareness of the true meaning of shared space leading to huge benefits in terms of noise, litter, crime
Wonderful. Proves people aren't the problem, control (law) was the problem. When law removed, people automatically become grace us, and the benefit is no accidents at all. Grace, Mercy, Peace to all.
Thanks. True, I have been campaigning for years for this kind of approach, but I was only hired to film the transformation of Fountain Place. Certainly if I were in power I would be promoting the approach nationwide. In the specific case of Poynton, it's Councillor Howard Murray who was the driving force behind the project. After hearing about shared space from a colleague, he researched it, understood its merits, and took action by raising the money and commissioning Ben. So hats off to them!
Equity is central to sustainability on so many levels. This is a great example of the built environment giving form and balancing the need for public space and human mobility for all populations.
Absolutely amazing. The city of Bayreuth, Germany, where I am currently studying, could learn so much from this. But as of now we still have 4-lane-roads going right through the city center, with ridiculously oversized intersections.
Is there any difference in traffic volume on any of the approaches since this treatment has been installed? Sometimes traffic will choose a different route as a result of improvements or disincentives along a particular route. The observed improvement may be the result of less traffic (which might be a good thing) and not necessarily the result of the new design.
For me, the continued flow of traffic through the town and the wider spaces for pedestrians is a secondary benefit compared to the base improvement in social interaction and friendliness evident in the film. I realise we are, in effect, watching a 'marketing' clip, edited for the purpose of promoting the ideology, but the positivity of even the naysayers is just heart-warming. Three cheers for all involved!
I really like the thinking here! In Sweden we also have examples similar to this. A concept I really like are streets that are built really for pedestrian and cyclists, but where cars are allowed. So when you drive on such a street, you feel like you always have to watch out and know where pedestrians/cyclists are, which creates alot more safety.
I noticed an interesting phenomenon here in Australia. When two lanes merge and there is a line demarcating the lane that is ending the drivers in the continuing lane will simply refuse to courteously give way to the leading car in the ending lane. Take away that line and you observe a lot more sensible behaviour.
Bravo. It is very uplifting to see how this scheme is working out, and the tranfsormation not only of the intersction, but of the attitude some of the interviewees who were concerned about it ahead of time. There's nothing like evidence to dispel the clouds of bigotry against shared space, but I suspect many will choose to cling onto their habit of belief in traffic lights and ghastly over-controlled segregated highways in spite of the evidence that there are other solutions.
This is brilliant! Should it really be so astounding that given a well designed space and the removal of arbitrary controls, people revert to their natural ways, and start being cautious and courteous with one another? Well done to all the people involved with this!
Client was jointly Cheshire East Council and Poynton Town Council. Hamilton-Baillie Associates were lead designers. Plan-It Landscapes (Lindsay Humblet and Johannes Dobrat) did the detailed design. Stockley Associates (Stephen O'Malley) supported Cheshire East as project engineers. Phil McNeal was project manager. Contractors were English Landscapes (Phase 1) and Casey (Phase 2).
Lots of interesting comments (and understandable concerns) on this novel 'experiment' which was extensively researched and observed working in other countries before it was proposed. As a user of this junction for 7 years: before, during and after construction, on a daily commute basis, I feel I can offer valuable insight into the perceptions, habits and subtle changes which occurred in all users of that particular section of road. Bottom line: we are all adaptable humans. We adapted to traffic, road signs, junctions where previously none had barely existed. By the same measure we can, and have adapted to the concept of learned behavior when all users enter the shared spaced area of Poynton village centre. Of course it was scary at first. I was not only a car driver, but a pedestrian shopper in my lunch hours too. The major behaviour felt and noticed, was EYE CONTACT. We look left and right, still, before crossing, and we look at each other as drivers and pedestrians as our journeys transect. A period of adaptation happened by osmosis, and I can tell you now.. as a driver, you take the notion of 'consideration for fellow human' into your everyday driving behaviour. Finally... and this is important to note: the road from Stockport to Poynton to the motorway and airport is one of the most heavily used in the north of England. As part of the infrastructure regeneration for the north, currently the SEMMS motorway intersection is being build both sides of the wider area of Poynton ( namely High Lane, Hazel Grove, and Woodford ) which will prevent, I reckon, about 70% of current traffic volumes from needing to enter into Poynton village. Once it's complete, there will be a marked difference in quality of life for villagers and people driving through who isn't heading for the airport etc. Take a look at this: www.semmms.info/
I come from Manchester so know Poynton and it's good to see the local council took the steps to improve the roads. I now live in Thailand where often they just switch off the lights even at major junctions and even though the standard of driving here is absolutely awful it does seem to work. I also found the experiment in Swindon to be interesting with the scrapping of speed cameras which drastically reduced accidents.
this was fascinating I have driven a roundabout just twice in my life and it was unsettling. I hesitate too much to take my turn. Is that a problem in poynton?
I have observed drivers taking *very* strange trajectories around and across the roundels-not-roundabouts in Poynton. Most drivers (quite reasonably) assume they are roundabouts, some know that (for unclear reasons) they aren't actually roundabouts - and go whereever thaes their fancy! You have to assume that blind people might be walking across/in/along the road, since neither they nor their guide dogs can tell where the road is and isn't. About 5% of drivers "mount the kerb" around the edges of the "roundabouts", without noticing it.
This is really interesting, but I have a question: how do you prepare/warn drivers that they are approaching a shared space zone? Is there some type of signage outside the village that warns drivers that pedistrians will be walking out in front of them? I like this idea alot but I feel it could catch motorists off guard if they have never driven through a shared space area
I'm a road-user, a human being. Sometimes I'm in a car, sometimes on a bike, sometimes on foot, as you are. No road-user is safe in the regulated system which puts us at odds with each other, and makes us compete for gaps and green time. In a space like this which stimulates empathy, people rediscover their humanity. All are equal and all are safe.
Well, thats quite an emotional watch. Whatever your views on shared space (or anything traffic related) how inspiring to see the brains, talent and drive we have in this country in abundance finally being given an opportunity to express itself. Creativity, foresight, fresh ways of thinking needn't cost the earth and just look at the positive effects.
With the space freed up by removing traffic lanes, we were able to increase the amount of on-street parking significantly on London Road. There is a bit (not much) additional short term delivery parking on Park Lane. Poynton is unusual in having very substantial amounts of off-street parking spaces. We used a particular method of parking control called "Restricted Parking Zone" (RPZ) which does away with the need for yellow lines etc..
Well done Poynton! And I hope that in the long term, your scheme will prove to be as successful as it seems to have been so far. I think that councils down south have a lot to learn from you! Take note Hertfordshire County Council!
It's terrible! We were trying to get through Poynton today and at about 10:30 AM the tailback was about half a mile. The approach to the junction is reduced to one lane so no wonder. What a mess, no doubt the result of the Anti-car lobby.
Andy Howlett Before, when there were traffic lights and multi-lane approaches, traffic routinely backed up to Hazel Grove to the north, which I think is more than a mile (?). One thing I disagreed with at the time of the redesign was that buses weren't given lay-bys to pull into when dropping off or taking on passengers. Hence they caused tailbacks. Do you know if this is still the case?
Martin. Soon after the change, there was a bus stop which was clearly in a stupid place and whenever a bus stopped there it would bring the junction to a halt. I think that one has been moved or altered.
Andy Howlett Thanks. The scheme designer didn't expect congestion to disappear as a result of the changes, but thought at least it shouldn't be any worse than before, and expected it to be better outside peak times. In your view and your experience, is congestion worse than before, or about the same? What do you think of other results of the scheme, eg are speeds lower, road-user relationships any better, the feel and look of the place improved?
It's difficult to come to a firm conclusion as we use this road infrequently, but I don't recall a half-mile tailback at this point at an off-peak time on a weekday morning. It may have been even worse if the roadworks ( a short distance before this point) had not been 'throttling' the approaching traffic. As for generally, I suppose it's a brave attempt, but I'm not sure it's a good location to try this 'shared space' idea, as it is just too busy and some kind of by-pass is urgently required.
Andy Howlett I understand a bypass is in the pipeline. Sorry you experienced such dire congestion but presumably it would be no better with traffic lights, and everything else would be so much worse
Anyone who's been through Poynton on a Sunday around church chucking-out time will realise that while this works well for moderate volumes of rolling traffic, it is an absolute nightmare when there are large volumes of pedestrians (particularly as a cyclist - pedestrians aren't looking for you, they're looking at cars/generally dozing). I think this system could be used in small villages/suburbs elsewhere but isnt going to work in inner city areas where the traffic problems are much worse and there are people walking everywhere all the time. Its good that they've tried something different and improved the situation over how it was before, but getting large volumes of people out of their cars has to be the priority nationally.
That's also the case elsewhere. A good study of what users actually fell and what actually happens (as opposed to theory) is at eprints.uwe.ac.uk/16039/ It uses some very strong "academic language" when describing the evidence for shared spaces.
in reply to hee163 "absolute nightmare" - an exaggeration? When you leave a rock concert or race meeting, you see the reason for slow progress: loads of other people leaving at the same time. You're in the same boat, so it's acceptable. Why should people on foot look out for people on wheels? The point is restore the balance of power in favour of the vulnerable road-user. Given roads that are fit for people, above all fit for children, you would see car use decline, but in response to life-enhancing culture change, not mind-numbing regulation.
Martin Cassini The whole premise of shared space is that it is that everyone has responsibility for their own safety and those around them in order to maintain smooth and safe flow of traffic (inc. pedestrians), and has EQUAL priority. In order for it to work everybody should keep moving where safe to, and should be keeping their eyes open for all other traffic... vehicles, bikes and pedestrians.
+Robert Walker So you're comparing a location with a lot of traffic with this intersection to......what? Are you comparing this location with the previous intersection? Another solution could have been congestion pricing for this and other nearby areas. What causes traffic congestion exactly? Driving! It's driving that causes congestion. We need to get more people out of their personal motor coaches.
+Robert Walker Part of the point of voonerfs is UNCERTAINTY. The "green light" gives drivers no reason to think and every reason to drive fast. Yes, but you are not comparing this exact intersection to the before version, which was also a "horrible mess". This looks to be a lot better than what this town had before, especially for the pedestrians and people breathing the air. There are just too many cars. Congestion pricing of this and nearby roads for peak times would help.
StreetsAre ForPeople I don't want to have to guess what the other guy is going to do, Using your logic we should get rid of all road signs. If someone makes a wrong guess people die.
@@robertwalker6684 The point is that each road is narrowed to one lane each direction before the intersection, which narrows the stream of vehicles. Also, the unusual layout of the intersection, combined with no regulation, makes all the drivers become very alert to what everyone else is doing. Everybody also go very slowly through the intersection. But because there is no traffic signal, you never have to stop and wait for a light. You may have to stop for pedestrians, but you won't be stopped for long. My guess is, the average time a person would spend going through the intersection is a bit better than it was before, and the conditions for the pedestrians are much better.
Really glad to see a positive comment from a blind person - in York there is strong resistence to the idea on basis of it being 'dangerous' for the elderly and disabled and that it gives a green light to cycling on pavements etc because of the lack of kerbs.
Thanks for the reply. And perhaps the character restriction made me overstate the "anti-car" sentiment. I hold a license and own a car, although I'd say cycling is my primary mode of transport where I live in Manchester, so I don't want to ban cars completely. But I would route main roads around village centres rather than through them. The Dutch have a principle of establishing the purpose of a road, and here there were previously two purposes - village centre and through route.
An an ex Macclesfield resident, all I can say is what a fantastic improvement on a junction that was a nightmare previously. Well done. Swindon has the Magic Roundabout which was a bit confusing, this looks much better. Congratulations.
I've seen the whole of central London with lights out of action - never was it less congested or more pleasant to move around. So what works on a micro scale works on a macro (not that Poynton is micro - it carries a lot of traffic). Give humans a decent framework, and their decent instincts will thrive. By contrast, give them a mean-spirited setting, and their mean spirits will flourish
From a pedestrian and cyclists perspective I think it is wonderful in the centre; the junction feels very safe to use also. Just a pity the attitudes of drivers approaching on Chester Road doesnt change, and the constant use of the cycle lane as parking spaces has not been addressed.
How much would it have cost to restructure the junction as two roundabouts, if the work had been done using standard road building materials. Did anyone calculate that, before this block-paving approach was taken?
Thanks for being the hero of the resistance you are, Martin. You inspire me. I will (I am, but not with all the necessary effort) try to be like you for Brazil.
A lovely example of how *low density* traffic navigates intersections with neither traffic lights nor markings. I've watched cars attempting to do this kind of thing at the Poynton rotary-not-roundabout, but it can't really happen in Poynton because the traffic density is higher and the junction smaller. I wonder if removing all the markings on Swindon's "magic roundabout" would have the same effect? Negotiating a Crazy Intersection at Ethiopia
May I ask whether you have often used this stretch of road, before and after? As a vulnerable road user myself, I think people here (Edinburgh) would give their eye-teeth to convert our road network into something like this! In fact, I'm tempted to come down on a fact-finding trip, although it's a bit of a hike (4h by train)...
My 5 year old probably won't be happy sharing the road with any number of vehicles, though. Like I said, though, given the circumstances, this is light years ahead of where it was, for which everyone involved deserves congratulations.
Great to see! Especially the contrast between the part with traffic lights and the part without ^^ It "feels" more open and friendly. As a driver, I guess I would be terrified the first time I had to take part in this but one can get used to everything. As a pedestrian I love how this looks and gives you a.. well.. nicer feeling. In addition, you save all the electricity for the traffic lights *g*
Thanks! I think, parking is the greatest issue in downtown regenerations here in Hungary, even in the smaller towns. In the bigger ones it's hard even to imagine such great pedestrian areas not to be parked in, unless defended by pollers (or strict fines). But it is slowly getting better.
No signage outside necessary. The detailing of the approaches and highway-to-village transition points at the entrances is enough to change to mindset of drivers. Drivers are very sensitive to subtle cues from their surroundings.
I used to drive minicabs around the Yorkshire resort of Scarborough from 1992 to 2000, during that time, the council removed two key roundabouts at the intersections of arterial routes. Traffic got worse. The only time that it appeared to ease was when they failed. Sure you will get the odd jerk, but indecision does tend bring the best out of most British drivers.
What a fantastic scheme - giving the roads back to people, not vehicles, while creating a benefit for everyone (including those same vehicles). This is a model of what Britain's roads should look like.
I can't really comment about Poynton as a place to live, but I enjoyed being there and met some delightful people. I did find the lack of B+Bs in town disappointing - the closest one I found was in Hazel Grove. Commiserations though about the high cost of rail travel.
A truly inspiring video: I met Ben when he was trying to get this sort of thing going in Bristol. It is wonderful to see intelligence and vision being applied - well done to all involved.
The shared space outside the Hippodrome (1) looks a mess because of tarmac scars across it (2) has caused too many people to walk in front of 7 ton busses, with the obvious detrimental effect to their health. No doubt Ben would claim it "isn't a true shared space" and "they did everything wrong".
Ben Hamilton-Baillie Rephrase: "can you tell us what was done right and wrong, please?". I'm interested *solely* in avoiding predictable mistakes elsewhere in the future, not in apportioning past blame. Hence "they" is the set of *anonymous* individuals and organisations that created the mess, and I'm interested in the results not in the process that lead to the results.
This is a model that could work almost anywhere. It clearly works for drivers, cyclists and pedestrians, which I approve of as I use all three modes on a regular basis.
Great Quote: "There’s a misconception that if you take away the lights people will drive fast. Actually the opposite is true. It’s the green light that encourages the speed that licenses the aggression. If you take away the light and there’s uncertainty at the junction then people naturally approach slowly and filter."
In reply to DreamTheory: you could be forgiven for thinking the current rules of the road license killing. The point of Poynton is to shift the balance of power in favour of the vulnerable, allowing motorists to rediscover their humanity. Would you jump a cash point queue? No. Well, on the road too, use your manners to give way to others who were there first. Simples
It's amazing how well that particular junction is working. I am surprised that it only cost £4m. I tricycle as my only means of transport and never go through large junctions on the road but will always use the pavement. However, the junction in the video I am sure I would feel completely at ease cycling around. Having it with only enough space for single traffic around both roundels makes it safe for any form of transport to join in with, unlike our British roundabouts.
Very brave stuff, I really applaud the initiative and drive that must have gone into realising this excellent scheme. Non motor traffic should have 'the right of way' in all town centres I think
Great to see interesting concepts and ideas come to shine in such a phenomenal way. However I do have a question about water runoff. England can can get quite snowy and wet and from what I gathered- you don't have any pavements - does that mean you don't have any gutters to relocate and move the water off the roads?
Martin can we do this without block paving? I guess that contributed a lot to the cost. We have an area called Stanningley in West Leeds where a similar concept is being mooted as part of the £29 million 'Cycle Superhighway' and I think it would work in Pudsey. Pedestrians there often ignore the red man on some crossings, and drivers don't have the heart to honk them. Live and Let live! Your video and the BBC Coventry one have inspired me to look drivers in the eye and walk across in front of them just in ordinary streets. No one has actually tried to mow me down yet!
What happens when, not if, utility companies dig up the pretty surface? Are they required to reinstate the pretty surface, or can they just leave an ugly asphalt "scar"? Shame if it ends up like this, St. Augustine's Parade, Bristol
paulincumbria - you mean Howard Murray. He is that rare beast: a councillor with the guts to stand up to traffic officer jobsworths who do not know what's best, indeed they practise what's worst
Amanda, thanks for your comment, depressing though it is. I was there with recording equipment on at least four separate days. I did not choose busy and slack times. I always wanted busy times. But the weather was against us on numerous proposed shooting dates. On the "after" filming day, I tried to interview drivers, but guess what - the traffic was always moving gently, even during evening rush-hour, so no-one could stop to talk, because they would have caused a jam. Out of space ...
I love the idea of "Shared Space" - everyone is so annoyed with all the signals/lights in Sandpoint, ID. I think this would be a great idea for our community!
Just turn the signals off, and enliven the streetscape with nice things and interesting people! It's easy. Want to borrow an angle-grinder? Always fancied visiting Sandpoint, ID!
Ben Hamilton-Baillie Are you thinking of things like the pedestrian at 3:50 in this vimeo.com/118137432 video? Any comments on the points the blind people make in the other parts of the video, especially from 2:40 onwards? Or are they to be ignored and dismissed?
Fonant, in another comment which I saw somewhere, you said you wouldn't cycle with your family through the junction. Are you saying you prefer the old system of traffic lights? Are you aware than 44% of personal injury "accidents" occur at traffic lights? Maybe this is a case of 'you can't please all of the people all of the time'.
Thanks for your efforts! Let's hope we can convince more councils to consider this approach. Is there any data out there indicating how much this approach costs compared to the conventional one?
Amanda. Through traffic drivers have certainly benefited, based on the initial findings on journey times and delays. These have dropped significantly since the scheme was completed. Lots of data on pre- and post-completion, and most suggests that the junction works significantly better than the traffic -signal controlled former arrangement. But the purpose of the scheme was NOT traffic flows. It was about economic regeneration of Poynton. And this has clearly worked.
Actually, it isn't refreshing to see it in action. It isn't all sweetness and light. An FoI request has apparently revealed that there 10 times (!) more pedestrian accidents in Poynton. FFI see www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2014/04/where-crashes-are-shared-space-and.html See eprints.uwe.ac.uk/17937/ for an unbiassed peer-reviewed report that dispels some of the claims made by those whose livelihood is tied up with shared spaces. The entire report is well worth reading; here's a taster from the abstract: "... most pedestrians diverted away from their desire lines, gave way to vehicles in most cases and felt safer under the original road layout. ... The authors conclude that some of the claims made on behalf of shared space have overstated the available evidence" (which is academic "fighting talk").
It was published in our newsletter Martin. If you let me have an email address I will happily email it to you. And yes the feedback we had was that it was safer for blind people before the scheme, particularly on Park Lane. When there was a regulated crossing people who couldn't see the traffic could be sure that vehicles had stopped for the red light and could cross in safety.
Peter, is this attack based on legal opinion or conjecture? It's established case law that motorists have a higher duty of care towards vulnerable road users, especially in an area like this where there is no expectation on vulnerable road users to "keep clear". I find it unbelievably unlikely that cyclists and pedestrians would be in a worse position vis-a-vis compensation than if struck on an ordinary road layout (but that, FWIW, is just my conjecture).
Also an important point to be made here: legal reform is more likely to follow the de-facto results of rebuilding our urban environments to be more humane, as here, than it is to preceed the same. For instance, if enough towns were redesigned this way, it's possible to see the government found new powers and/or issue new legal guidance because otherwise they will be getting a lot of bad press. The converse is not true.
Ben might be able to answer better the question of why people don't park on the extended sidewalks - presumably it's because they can see from the design that those are walking, not vehicle or parking areas. There are in fact quite a number of free parking bays along the A-road, and as far as I know, parking is largely unrestricted on side roads too, also there is parking behind many of the shops on Park Lane
Quite agree. Shared use is fine so long as the motor vehicles are few and far between, and not in a hurry to get somewhere. So fine for cul-de-sacs but not so good for major through routes. With the traffic in this video it's a brave pedestrian or cyclist who just crosses in front of a motor vehicle: it's shared, but only on the motorists' terms.
I've long been a huge fan of this approach - everyone wins (except maybe traffic light and other such road furniture manufacturers). I hope it spreads like wildfire throughout the world.
Ed, right, but we have a battle on our hands. Most public money is in the hands of people whose vested interest is the maintenance of the current system of control. The forces of reaction are powerful
If Doris Day, likes it, I like it.
Here in downtown Buenos Aires, some streets are being converted into shared space. Curbs have disappeared and zones are marked by different colored pavement. There are some additional elements, like small columns to avoid parking, since motorists here are notoriously unconcerned by regulations.
But I lived downtown for 20 years and I can't recognize those streets now. They seem drab and dark even when empty, on weekends, now they look wide and sunlit. And quiet. People and cars mingle and nobody honks, though a street down it is bedlam.
It really, really, works.
I use this junction maybe five times a year as a car driver.
When the traffic flow has been light it's very pleasant.
At rush hour I felt the queues were worse for cars(ok, maybe that's not a bad thing!) I think mainly because some drivers , like the car coming from the left at 8:22 , are overly cautious and the flow isn't as efficient as it could be.
I've used it once as a pedestrian. It felt a bit odd but traffic , which was already moving at a very modest pace, adjusted their speed to give way. They didn't actually have to stop. I think that keeps a momentum up.
Some motorists must get frustrated and accelerate hard off the roundabout but it felt like a minority ,,, and overall it is a much more relaxed atmosphere than when there were traffic lights.
I wonder how much time it adds to a commute. Once the road opens up again to two or three lanes, don't you just speed along until the next congestion? Unless of course it is the only spot you ever slow down.
@@carlporter
My thoughts exactly.
But I once arrived at the junction from one of the lesser roads at rush hour.
The queue was about 300m and took about ten minutes. I'd avoid it in the future if I remember!
If there was an accepted 'zipper' \ merge in turn they'd work better.
In the rush hour the stream was so continuous in one direction of the major road that there was rarely a gap for traffic on the lesser road.
@@richH1625 Zipper merge defined here: ruclips.net/video/cX0I8OdK7Tk/видео.html&ab_channel=AlbertaMotorAssociation That would be teaching people road etiquette. I can see how that would help to keep all cars in motion, albeit very slowly. To calculate the time difference, you'd have to know how long the traffic lights used to hold the traffic, and then can you get through on the second or third cycle? Very interesting, thanks.
The lesson for me is that when you remove restrictions from humans they become nicer to each other and accept responsibility. In a world heading towards ever more digital control and questionable rules this is a great example to how we CAN all co-exist. I use the junction regularly and love it as a pedestrian, a driver and as a cyclist. Freedom wins! Every time I drive in Poynton I naturally make eye contact with pedestrians. I enjoy giving way and the appreciation that comes back in return is amazing - surely a lesson to town planners who just want to demonize car drivers. Pedestrians and drivers really smile at each other which makes it a happier village. Well done. (PS yes I admit - I was slightly cynical during the roadworks!). The major challenge will be to maintain the safe flat cobbled / brick surfaces.
Thanks Steve. I've been banging on about this for over two decades, to TV and radio commissioning editors, newspaper editors (occasionally they commmission an article), councillors, traffic managers, roads ministers. Most of the time it's like banging my head against a brick wall. At my website/blog, Equality Streets, is a contact email if you'd like to be in touch.
In answer to the question: No, the available space on that part of the pavement is not "shared" but clearly set aside for car parking. I was just suggesting that as this is not shared the carefully separated footways and roads would have been perfectly complemented by separated cycle lanes.
Sorry for the delay replying, I don't want a bunfight over the merits of the scheme, which works well on the quieter shopping section in Park Lane and works well for motorised traffic flow and pedestrians.
Wonderful! More of this kind of thinking needed all over the country.
Great piece Martin. This just shows that drivers and pedestrians can co-exist and share the same space. I hope to see more of this throughout the world.
I took the National Highway Institute (US) two day course on Applying Flexibility in Highway Design this week. They used this video as a case study. I understand they are in the process of building the relief road. It would be interesting to revisit after the bypass opens.
I work for Free Wheel North, the Glasgow based special needs cycling and access charity. We work with thousands of people with additional mobility needs. Poynton village is an exemplar of how things should be, combining human access rights with a vast increase in quality of life and safety. We are advocating similar changes to the town of Kirkintilloch near Glasgow. Once people see it action they usually can see how shared space works. This is a return to public space for people, the foundation of civilisation as it evolved over thousands of years. Contemporary examples regenerate community rich in shops, cafes, post offices pubs; the fabric of village, town or city life. This was how it was before cars destroyed all our urban spaces. We visited Poynton and sent a small boy across the main junction without hesitation. No problem. See youtube clip Poynton Village shared space Free Wheel North.
+norman armstrong Please explain why, in Poynton, most cyclists avoid the road and use the pavement. That usually means they are frightened of using the road.
+norman armstrong Please explain why, in Ashford, 91% of women were afraid of the shared space, and the more people used the shared space, the more they wanted it changed. Don't trust me, don't trust people that make money out of installing shared space schemes, do trust disinterested observations of what happens in the real world. See, for example, eprints.uwe.ac.uk/17937/ "The authors conclude that some of the claims made on behalf of shared space have overstated the available evidence", which is fighting talk in that context!
+Tom Gardner. Cyclists don't avoid the roads in Poynton, as indeed the video I made at Poynton proves. Tiny cyclists use the pavement, as they do everywhere, which is good.
Regarding the vested interest argument, one should look to the multi-trillion pound business of selling speed, cars, traffic lights, oil and traffic engineering. My organisation provides more activity for the disabled than any other in Scotland and we are a voice for shared space and its link to human rights. Shared space is the birthright of all human beings and existed for at least 10,000 years, until the motor business systematically removed it during the last 100 years. The fear of shared space is interesting. It's a function of institutionalisation. Freedom is terrifying if you are not used to it. People come out of prison unable to cope with decision making due to never exercising any autonomy. Everyday tasks cause great anxiety. In street life we have become inured to machine control, herded like cattle and diverted away from desire lines. Navigational ability atrophies and replaced with terror. Once 'they' have us in the grip of fear in its easy to remove our human right to move freely and our will to move is ceded to the traffic light, kerb, railing and barrier. Shared Space reinstates the right to freedom of movement and individual autonomy: you have the ability and right to cross anywhere and anywhen. Fear of freedom is the psychological barrier to shared space. But that fear has no basis in reality, for it removes the greatest threat to safety in modern life: speeding traffic.
+norman armstrong Please read what I *actually* wrote. Whenever I have been to Poynton the *majority* of the cyclists have *illegally* been on the *pavement* with pedestrians. Most of the cyclists on the road were lycra-clad "dedicated" cyclists. Those on the pavement were exclusively "normal" people in everyday clothes.
+norman armstrong Your philosophical claptrap about institutionalisation (etc) is demonstrably false. (1) the more people used Ashford, the more they wanted changes. In other words, familiarity breeds fear of shared spaces. (2) desire lines were *not* followed; people huddled against the edges out of fear! (3) The majority of people, and 91% of women, felt anxious there. Take the trouble to read the UWE report eprints.uwe.ac.uk/17937/ and you will see how "unusual" your viewpoint is.
I visited Poynton in 2013 and witnessed the best example of how deregulation can build a caring, supportive and collaborative society; and it involves cars!!! Poynton is typical of small high street towns in the north of England, it was a mining town originally and eventually became part of the greater Manchester conurbation. The main high street is a major trunk road ( A road) with a steady stream of N/S traffic. Also typical of many UK high streets, the shops have struggled and many were closing down due to the GFC and general poor environment.
Low a miracle.....someone was inspired to sort it out from an urban design point of view and develop a deregulated, uncontrolled shared surface concept. The local council and the transport authorities embraced the idea and had the courage to say yes!! This as many know is not a new idea, but one that is hard to get over the line especially in Australia!!
I see this as much more than a great example of excellent urban design or even social engineering. It is a metaphor for how we should be approaching many issues in society, in health, education, housing. Let us remove the burden of control and regulation which breeds expectations that, somehow it is someone else’s responsibility to manage the individuals interaction with their environment and within their community. We have all to varying degrees abdicated responsibility for our own actions, There is clearly another way to get us Poynton in the right direction.
Australia should look and learn
David Bagshaw -architect
change by design
Thanks Martin. I have nothing but praise for the film and the whole project. Thats why I put the inverted commas around 'marketing' - it's probably not the word I was looking for. I think the film is brilliant in presenting the problem/solution in a very effective way (the opening sequence traffic noise, whilst emotive, is so indicative of much of our daily lives). I'm a cyclist, a pedestrian, a motorist and a regular train user and now inspired once again by a little section of our populace.
It would be really nice to see some footage of the intersection now that the relief road has been opened for a while. I assume traffic in the center is less busy now? Especially less large trucks?
I started watching with the attitude of "this is an accident waiting to happen", but I'm very impressed by it. It is true...a green light at a junction is almost a sign to say "It's your turn - get through as fast as you can, nothing is going to happen", yet when the lights are down everyone creeps through, checking all around them and being extra spacially aware. I cycle through Chorlton and Salford most days and constantly feel like I'm on borrowed time. We need more of these.
Brilliant. The scheme we have waited for in the UK and that should be the tipping point for UK Shared Space street design. Other schemes have had the distraction of minor flaws. Poynton benefits from the perfect storm: having and wanting to do something, appointing a great designer with clear vision, a supportive highway authority and especially a politician with the drive to push it through. Lucky to have all four.Great detailing. Inclusion of non-priority 'roundels was a work of genius! Bravo!
No, this is the best that can be done with the narrow Park Lane road, but there's no pretending the provision along London Road or Chester Road wouldn't have been better for cyclists-particularly children- if the segregated narrow vehicle lanes had been accompanied by protected cycle lanes. Cycling that section when it's quiet in the evening and you're the only obstacle to an aggressive motorist is not "congenial". I'm a huge fan of the scheme, this is just honest experience.
Mr. Cassini, Youll be happy to hear that your approach to a more social and common sense traffic operation is being utilized in two different complex cross streets in Long Beach, Ca. If it can be done in the US; it can be done anywhere. Good day.
Are there any pavements in the meaning of the Highway Code clause 145? If so, where do they begin/end? (Of course, shared spaces *require* that it is ambiguous, and frequently drivers do cross what I would think of as the pavement.)
Yes, there are conventional pavements, delineated by kerbs.
Ben Hamilton-Baillie Thank you. Of course the kerbs are smaller and easier to cross than many of the ruts/potholes now found in many roads :( Also blind people that have been to Poynton cannot use the kerbs and find Poynton "horrendous" and "impossible". See the Walthew House Newsletter issues 8, 9, 10 for the full context.
Tom Gardner I had extensive correspondence with Walthew House which I mean to post at Equality Streets
Martin Cassini Please do post the URL containing the entire unedited conversation; it has been 5 months since the conversation which seems to have included Kay Kelly's comment "I'm sorry Martin, but your reply just underlines your lack of knowledge about visual impairment."
Martin Cassini Have you published this conversation yet? If so, URL, please!
Hi Martin! I'm from Brigham Young University-Hawaii's University Communications department. May we have your permission to use your video for a public university lecture?
Poynton, Cheshire. My partner and I went to see this groundbreaking shared space scheme for ourselves yesterday and were completely blown away.
The gently flowing traffic meandered calmly through the junction with only three minor instances of irritability in 45 minutes. It was mesmerising. All traffic deferred to pedestrians and, even though the volume of traffic was very high, the slow speed and consequent low noise, together with the greenery, paving and absence of signage, created an attractive and inviting streetscape that the locals we spoke to told us had made a significant difference to the pedestrian footprint for businesses on the junction.
I’m more than ever convinced that this type of scheme could revolutionise Hereford.
Have a look at eprints.uwe.ac.uk/17937/ for a decent review of a different shared space scheme. I, and others, have found it enlightening.
Tom Gardner Thanks Tom. I've read the report and can't say I'm surprised to read that higher volumes and speeds result in greater driver hostility and reluctance to give way to pedestrians or that pedestrians go the long way round to avoid traffic or comments like "Across most of the sites, pedestrians gave way to vehicles more often than vice versa". In fact none of the report's findings are surprising but that's a reason for refining the concept rather than binning it, surely? Shared space is not a panacea but, having visited The Netherlands on two separate study trips, it's clear that it does work in the Home Zones.
I don't think we should allow the perfect to the enemy of the good. We've had fifty years of designing pedestrians and cyclists off the network and encouraging motorists to bully them and Rome wasn't dismantled in a day. Whatever the concerns about imbuing the concept of shared space with all sorts of objectives and capabilities that its original authors never envisaged or intended, it has to be an improvement on the grim reality of British urban spaces as they stand. If nothing else it sets us on the right trajectory. It kickstarts the long and painful process of dismantling the now deeply entrenched assumption that motorists have priority on the street and it's just up to everyone else to keep out of the way and, more disturbingly, the trend in thinking that cyclists who don't venture out in full Kevlar are somehow "asking for it".
I don't really understand why we're constantly going round this loop. Why aren't we just cherry picking the ideas that work elsewhere? In Hereford, I sense so much driver hostility and resentment that I've pretty much stopped cycling but with a likely change of political control on the horizon, we could see some radical changes soon. Quite exciting.
Amanda Martin I broadly agree with your measured thoughtful reply. I believe that shared spaces do have some benefits - as well as problems. What do I fight against is the stated position that shared spaces are good everywhere, that they don't bring *new* problems, and that if they are introduced everything will automatically be sweetness and light (e.g. see Martin Cassini' statements here and aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2014/06/16/poynton/ ).
It is necessary for shared space advocates to address the fact that in Poynton the majority of cyclists *choose* to cycle *illegally* on the pavements, not on the road - presumably they don't feel "equal enough" with the HGVs. (I'm particularly sensitive to this since last Wednesday a cyclist on the pavement clipped my crutches, almost sending me flying and back into hospital.)
It is also necessary to decide whether it is acceptable to design features which *actively* *exclude* the disabled. Blind people, despite multiple tries, say Poynton is "horrendous" and "impossible". Neither they nor their guide dogs can spot the edge of the pavement - which frightens them and the motorists. See the Walthew House Newsletter, or any of the organisations representing blind people.
The points in the UWE report that surprised me was the proportion of people that felt unsafe (91% of women), the more people used it the more they wanted it changed, and that in general shared space activists overstated the available evidence.
Any responsible person will recognise that any solution has disadvantages as well as advantages, and won't simply ignore the problems.
Tom Gardner Yes I agree with that, particularly your points in relation to cycling and folk with disabilities and that was the one qualm I had on seeing the Poynton scheme. As a traffic engineering measure that keeps traffic flowing at a civilised pace and manages hostility, it's excellent but apart from the tangential benefits that arise from reducing speed, it doesn't level the playing field between traffic and other road users.
In Hereford if It's Our County win the election, we're going to be starting from scratch in May to undo decades of crass engineering by the Council and, unhelpfully, from the Highways Agency in late 2013. There will be a lot of debate about what we do and what we do first. It's going to be emotional.
Amanda Martin You might like to consider that shared space proponents often use the beguiling mantra “dangerous is very safe”, and use it to “justify” removing standard safety features that drivers expect will warn them of danger. Almost all - but not all - people entering a reduced demarcation zone will become anxious and slow down - that was exactly my reaction when I unwittingly entered the Poynton scheme before I even knew shared spaces existed. But that reaction critically relied on *all* these preconditions being true:
1) *seeing* that it isn't normal, and/or seeing vehicles behaving unexpectedly
2) *recognising* that danger
3) *reacting* correctly and slowing down
Unfortunately we've all seen many examples where those preconditions are broken, e.g. driver adjusting audio system, driver chatting to passengers, driver using cellphones, poor visibility in bad weather or at night, driver drunk or otherwise under the influence, driver deliberately being reckless due to excess testosterone or showing off, driver just inexplicably stupid
Sure, those are all “driver errors”, but so what? In each case the consequence is that “*dangerous* *is* *dangerous*”!
Any responsible scheme should be designed presuming such “non-ideal” driver behaviour will occur, and include design features that minimises both the probability and the consequences.
Hello Martin
I work for Active Cheshire. We are the Lead Body for Physical Activity and Sport in Cheshire and Warrington. We really love your example of what has happened in Poynton and would like to feature it as an great exemplar of Active Design working in a busy transport environment. Could this be okay to use and share your video please?
Aiden Wilkinson - Active Cheshire.
Makes sense, I used to commute into Liverpool city center, one my easiest journeys was when there was a blanket failure of the traffic lights, the tailbacks that usually stretched from the tunnel entrance right round the city where gone, people just found there way through.
Very well done Poynton!
Public space is for people and their chosen method of using it should not confer advantage nor disadvantage.
Stage one in creating a better world.
Martin, Loved the video and the concept. Hoping cities in the US can follow this example...though it would definitely require a reversal of current trends. My question for you is: are there any metrics taken from Poynton before and after the change (average time to navigate the intersection, average speed of moving cars, average number of pedestrians, and safety statistics)? The video alludes to all of those aspects, but didn't present any stats.
The best statistics that I have seen are for a different shared space scheme. You may find them enlightening - I and others have. See the PDF of the full peer-reviewed report at eprints.uwe.ac.uk/17937/
Oh yes, a couple of other points worth making.
Firstly the majority of cyclists in Poynton choose to cycle illegally on the pavements. Yesterday lunchtime a pavement cyclist clipped one of my crutches, very nearly sending me flying and seriously injuring me.
Secondly for blind people it is "horrendous" and they are completely excluded: neither they nor their dogs can tell where the pavement ends and the road begins, so they accidentally wander into traffic.
I hate break it to you but this only sounds good... If you went there at rush hour, you would realise what i mean when i say LOADS of traffic
Seth J. Alberty Seth, I only just saw your post. I know of no studies along the lines you enquired about. All I know is that under standard traffic control, the accident record was poor. Since the scheme opened, there have been no personal injuries or accidents to speak of. To the best of my knowledge, the complaints in the above replies to your posts are exaggerated or unfounded.
Seth J. Alberty Learn from Portishead's 5 years of experience. The pedestrian lights are being *reinstated*, and they are planning to *reverse* the other so-called improvements. Why? To improve safety, reduce waiting times, and reduce the near misses. For a more nuanced description, see www.northsomersetmercury.co.uk/Peak-time-traffic-lights-return-Cabstand-resort/story-26266061-detail/story.html
Shared spaces have their place, but they aren't the panacea that some dreamers claim. I'll be interested to see how shared space advocates spin this!
Inspiring. The film has answers not just in relation to how we can radically improve traffic & improve safety, but profound implications in re-learning how to relate & communicate. If we can get people to understand what 'shared space' really means, then the implications are wider than traffic concerns alone; in cities where we all share space, each individual's part can be realised, with the awareness of the true meaning of shared space leading to huge benefits in terms of noise, litter, crime
Wonderful. Proves people aren't the problem, control (law) was the problem. When law removed, people automatically become grace us, and the benefit is no accidents at all. Grace, Mercy, Peace to all.
Thanks. True, I have been campaigning for years for this kind of approach, but I was only hired to film the transformation of Fountain Place. Certainly if I were in power I would be promoting the approach nationwide. In the specific case of Poynton, it's Councillor Howard Murray who was the driving force behind the project. After hearing about shared space from a colleague, he researched it, understood its merits, and took action by raising the money and commissioning Ben. So hats off to them!
Equity is central to sustainability on so many levels. This is a great example of the built environment giving form and balancing the need for public space and human mobility for all populations.
Absolutely amazing. The city of Bayreuth, Germany, where I am currently studying, could learn so much from this. But as of now we still have 4-lane-roads going right through the city center, with ridiculously oversized intersections.
Is there any difference in traffic volume on any of the approaches since this treatment has been installed? Sometimes traffic will choose a different route as a result of improvements or disincentives along a particular route. The observed improvement may be the result of less traffic (which might be a good thing) and not necessarily the result of the new design.
For me, the continued flow of traffic through the town and the wider spaces for pedestrians is a secondary benefit compared to the base improvement in social interaction and friendliness evident in the film. I realise we are, in effect, watching a 'marketing' clip, edited for the purpose of promoting the ideology, but the positivity of even the naysayers is just heart-warming. Three cheers for all involved!
Super inspiring, way to take the town back! Would love to see this approach around City Hall here in Philadelphia.
I really like the thinking here! In Sweden we also have examples similar to this. A concept I really like are streets that are built really for pedestrian and cyclists, but where cars are allowed. So when you drive on such a street, you feel like you always have to watch out and know where pedestrians/cyclists are, which creates alot more safety.
I noticed an interesting phenomenon here in Australia. When two lanes merge and there is a line demarcating the lane that is ending the drivers in the continuing lane will simply refuse to courteously give way to the leading car in the ending lane. Take away that line and you observe a lot more sensible behaviour.
Bravo. It is very uplifting to see how this scheme is working out, and the tranfsormation not only of the intersction, but of the attitude some of the interviewees who were concerned about it ahead of time. There's nothing like evidence to dispel the clouds of bigotry against shared space, but I suspect many will choose to cling onto their habit of belief in traffic lights and ghastly over-controlled segregated highways in spite of the evidence that there are other solutions.
This is brilliant! Should it really be so astounding that given a well designed space and the removal of arbitrary controls, people revert to their natural ways, and start being cautious and courteous with one another? Well done to all the people involved with this!
Client was jointly Cheshire East Council and Poynton Town Council. Hamilton-Baillie Associates were lead designers. Plan-It Landscapes (Lindsay Humblet and Johannes Dobrat) did the detailed design. Stockley Associates (Stephen O'Malley) supported Cheshire East as project engineers. Phil McNeal was project manager. Contractors were English Landscapes (Phase 1) and Casey (Phase 2).
Lots of interesting comments (and understandable concerns) on this novel 'experiment' which was extensively researched and observed working in other countries before it was proposed.
As a user of this junction for 7 years: before, during and after construction, on a daily commute basis, I feel I can offer valuable insight into the perceptions, habits and subtle changes which occurred in all users of that particular section of road.
Bottom line: we are all adaptable humans. We adapted to traffic, road signs, junctions where previously none had barely existed. By the same measure we can, and have adapted to the concept of learned behavior when all users enter the shared spaced area of Poynton village centre.
Of course it was scary at first. I was not only a car driver, but a pedestrian shopper in my lunch hours too. The major behaviour felt and noticed, was EYE CONTACT. We look left and right, still, before crossing, and we look at each other as drivers and pedestrians as our journeys transect.
A period of adaptation happened by osmosis, and I can tell you now.. as a driver, you take the notion of 'consideration for fellow human' into your everyday driving behaviour.
Finally... and this is important to note: the road from Stockport to Poynton to the motorway and airport is one of the most heavily used in the north of England. As part of the infrastructure regeneration for the north, currently the SEMMS motorway intersection is being build both sides of the wider area of Poynton ( namely High Lane, Hazel Grove, and Woodford ) which will prevent, I reckon, about 70% of current traffic volumes from needing to enter into Poynton village.
Once it's complete, there will be a marked difference in quality of life for villagers and people driving through who isn't heading for the airport etc.
Take a look at this: www.semmms.info/
I come from Manchester so know Poynton and it's good to see the local council took the steps to improve the roads. I now live in Thailand where often they just switch off the lights even at major junctions and even though the standard of driving here is absolutely awful it does seem to work. I also found the experiment in Swindon to be interesting with the scrapping of speed cameras which drastically reduced accidents.
this was fascinating
I have driven a roundabout just twice in my life and it was unsettling. I hesitate too much to take my turn. Is that a problem in poynton?
I have observed drivers taking *very* strange trajectories around and across the roundels-not-roundabouts in Poynton. Most drivers (quite reasonably) assume they are roundabouts, some know that (for unclear reasons) they aren't actually roundabouts - and go whereever thaes their fancy! You have to assume that blind people might be walking across/in/along the road, since neither they nor their guide dogs can tell where the road is and isn't. About 5% of drivers "mount the kerb" around the edges of the "roundabouts", without noticing it.
Can you use the wide pavements to cycle on, using the side nearer the road?
This is really interesting, but I have a question: how do you prepare/warn drivers that they are approaching a shared space zone? Is there some type of signage outside the village that warns drivers that pedistrians will be walking out in front of them? I like this idea alot but I feel it could catch motorists off guard if they have never driven through a shared space area
Congratulations to all those involved in this. A brilliant job and a stunning result. Other councils take note!
I'm a road-user, a human being. Sometimes I'm in a car, sometimes on a bike, sometimes on foot, as you are. No road-user is safe in the regulated system which puts us at odds with each other, and makes us compete for gaps and green time. In a space like this which stimulates empathy, people rediscover their humanity. All are equal and all are safe.
Well, thats quite an emotional watch. Whatever your views on shared space (or anything traffic related) how inspiring to see the brains, talent and drive we have in this country in abundance finally being given an opportunity to express itself. Creativity, foresight, fresh ways of thinking needn't cost the earth and just look at the positive effects.
With the space freed up by removing traffic lanes, we were able to increase the amount of on-street parking significantly on London Road. There is a bit (not much) additional short term delivery parking on Park Lane. Poynton is unusual in having very substantial amounts of off-street parking spaces. We used a particular method of parking control called "Restricted Parking Zone" (RPZ) which does away with the need for yellow lines etc..
Well done Poynton! And I hope that in the long term, your scheme will prove to be as successful as it seems to have been so far. I think that councils down south have a lot to learn from you!
Take note Hertfordshire County Council!
A massive improvement - much, much, much better.
Brilliant design & implementation. This is what's needed across all major junctions in our towns and cities. Who were the designers for this scheme?
It's terrible! We were trying to get through Poynton today and at about 10:30 AM the tailback was about half a mile. The approach to the junction is reduced to one lane so no wonder. What a mess, no doubt the result of the Anti-car lobby.
Andy Howlett Before, when there were traffic lights and multi-lane approaches, traffic routinely backed up to Hazel Grove to the north, which I think is more than a mile (?). One thing I disagreed with at the time of the redesign was that buses weren't given lay-bys to pull into when dropping off or taking on passengers. Hence they caused tailbacks. Do you know if this is still the case?
Martin. Soon after the change, there was a bus stop which was clearly in a stupid place and whenever a bus stopped there it would bring the junction to a halt. I think that one has been moved or altered.
Andy Howlett Thanks. The scheme designer didn't expect congestion to disappear as a result of the changes, but thought at least it shouldn't be any worse than before, and expected it to be better outside peak times. In your view and your experience, is congestion worse than before, or about the same? What do you think of other results of the scheme, eg are speeds lower, road-user relationships any better, the feel and look of the place improved?
It's difficult to come to a firm conclusion as we use this road infrequently, but I don't recall a half-mile tailback at this point at an off-peak time on a weekday morning. It may have been even worse if the roadworks ( a short distance before this point) had not been 'throttling' the approaching traffic. As for generally, I suppose it's a brave attempt, but I'm not sure it's a good location to try this 'shared space' idea, as it is just too busy and some kind of by-pass is urgently required.
Andy Howlett I understand a bypass is in the pipeline. Sorry you experienced such dire congestion but presumably it would be no better with traffic lights, and everything else would be so much worse
Can you give details of the accidents you mention? Presumably damage to vehicles only, not personal injury (because of the low speeds)?
Anyone who's been through Poynton on a Sunday around church chucking-out time will realise that while this works well for moderate volumes of rolling traffic, it is an absolute nightmare when there are large volumes of pedestrians (particularly as a cyclist - pedestrians aren't looking for you, they're looking at cars/generally dozing). I think this system could be used in small villages/suburbs elsewhere but isnt going to work in inner city areas where the traffic problems are much worse and there are people walking everywhere all the time.
Its good that they've tried something different and improved the situation over how it was before, but getting large volumes of people out of their cars has to be the priority nationally.
That's also the case elsewhere. A good study of what users actually fell and what actually happens (as opposed to theory) is at
eprints.uwe.ac.uk/16039/
It uses some very strong "academic language" when describing the evidence for shared spaces.
WotNoEngine
I do not accept Steve's melia-mouthed criticism. For him, the glass will never be half-full.
in reply to hee163
"absolute nightmare" - an exaggeration? When you leave a rock concert or race meeting, you see the reason for slow progress: loads of other people leaving at the same time. You're in the same boat, so it's acceptable. Why should people on foot look out for people on wheels? The point is restore the balance of power in favour of the vulnerable road-user. Given roads that are fit for people, above all fit for children, you would see car use decline, but in response to life-enhancing culture change, not mind-numbing regulation.
Martin Cassini Ad hominem attacks = you've lost the plot (and argument)!
Martin Cassini The whole premise of shared space is that it is that everyone has responsibility for their own safety and those around them in order to maintain smooth and safe flow of traffic (inc. pedestrians), and has EQUAL priority. In order for it to work everybody should keep moving where safe to, and should be keeping their eyes open for all other traffic... vehicles, bikes and pedestrians.
Recently I while visiting the UK I went through this "shared space" It was a mess. Terrible.
+Robert Walker So you're comparing a location with a lot of traffic with this intersection to......what? Are you comparing this location with the previous intersection? Another solution could have been congestion pricing for this and other nearby areas. What causes traffic congestion exactly? Driving! It's driving that causes congestion. We need to get more people out of their personal motor coaches.
StreetsAre ForPeople I went thru this exact intersection and it was a horrible mess. Nobody had any clue who had the ride away.
+Robert Walker Part of the point of voonerfs is UNCERTAINTY. The "green light" gives drivers no reason to think and every reason to drive fast.
Yes, but you are not comparing this exact intersection to the before version, which was also a "horrible mess". This looks to be a lot better than what this town had before, especially for the pedestrians and people breathing the air.
There are just too many cars. Congestion pricing of this and nearby roads for peak times would help.
StreetsAre ForPeople I don't want to have to guess what the other guy is going to do, Using your logic we should get rid of all road signs. If someone makes a wrong guess people die.
@@robertwalker6684 The point is that each road is narrowed to one lane each direction before the intersection, which narrows the stream of vehicles. Also, the unusual layout of the intersection, combined with no regulation, makes all the drivers become very alert to what everyone else is doing. Everybody also go very slowly through the intersection. But because there is no traffic signal, you never have to stop and wait for a light. You may have to stop for pedestrians, but you won't be stopped for long. My guess is, the average time a person would spend going through the intersection is a bit better than it was before, and the conditions for the pedestrians are much better.
Really glad to see a positive comment from a blind person - in York there is strong resistence to the idea on basis of it being 'dangerous' for the elderly and disabled and that it gives a green light to cycling on pavements etc because of the lack of kerbs.
Thanks for the reply. And perhaps the character restriction made me overstate the "anti-car" sentiment. I hold a license and own a car, although I'd say cycling is my primary mode of transport where I live in Manchester, so I don't want to ban cars completely. But I would route main roads around village centres rather than through them. The Dutch have a principle of establishing the purpose of a road, and here there were previously two purposes - village centre and through route.
An an ex Macclesfield resident, all I can say is what a fantastic improvement on a junction that was a nightmare previously. Well done. Swindon has the Magic Roundabout which was a bit confusing, this looks much better. Congratulations.
Cracked led me hear and I am glad that they did XD
Also this is genius and I think it could possibly help revitalize a lot of communities!
I've seen the whole of central London with lights out of action - never was it less congested or more pleasant to move around. So what works on a micro scale works on a macro (not that Poynton is micro - it carries a lot of traffic). Give humans a decent framework, and their decent instincts will thrive. By contrast, give them a mean-spirited setting, and their mean spirits will flourish
From a pedestrian and cyclists perspective I think it is wonderful in the centre; the junction feels very safe to use also. Just a pity the attitudes of drivers approaching on Chester Road doesnt change, and the constant use of the cycle lane as parking spaces has not been addressed.
How much would it have cost to restructure the junction as two roundabouts, if the work had been done using standard road building materials. Did anyone calculate that, before this block-paving approach was taken?
Thanks for being the hero of the resistance you are, Martin. You inspire me. I will (I am, but not with all the necessary effort) try to be like you for Brazil.
A lovely example of how *low density* traffic navigates intersections with neither traffic lights nor markings. I've watched cars attempting to do this kind of thing at the Poynton rotary-not-roundabout, but it can't really happen in Poynton because the traffic density is higher and the junction smaller. I wonder if removing all the markings on Swindon's "magic roundabout" would have the same effect?
Negotiating a Crazy Intersection at Ethiopia
May I ask whether you have often used this stretch of road, before and after? As a vulnerable road user myself, I think people here (Edinburgh) would give their eye-teeth to convert our road network into something like this! In fact, I'm tempted to come down on a fact-finding trip, although it's a bit of a hike (4h by train)...
My 5 year old probably won't be happy sharing the road with any number of vehicles, though. Like I said, though, given the circumstances, this is light years ahead of where it was, for which everyone involved deserves congratulations.
Great to see!
Especially the contrast between the part with traffic lights and the part without ^^
It "feels" more open and friendly.
As a driver, I guess I would be terrified the first time I had to take part in this but one can get used to everything.
As a pedestrian I love how this looks and gives you a.. well.. nicer feeling.
In addition, you save all the electricity for the traffic lights *g*
Thanks!
I think, parking is the greatest issue in downtown regenerations here in Hungary, even in the smaller towns. In the bigger ones it's hard even to imagine such great pedestrian areas not to be parked in, unless defended by pollers (or strict fines).
But it is slowly getting better.
No signage outside necessary. The detailing of the approaches and highway-to-village transition points at the entrances is enough to change to mindset of drivers. Drivers are very sensitive to subtle cues from their surroundings.
I used to drive minicabs around the Yorkshire resort of Scarborough from 1992 to 2000, during that time, the council removed two key roundabouts at the intersections of arterial routes. Traffic got worse. The only time that it appeared to ease was when they failed. Sure you will get the odd jerk, but indecision does tend bring the best out of most British drivers.
Very impressive - really well done on having the vision and strength to make this happen, I want to see something like this near my house soon!
Can we get a 6 years on?
What a fantastic scheme - giving the roads back to people, not vehicles, while creating a benefit for everyone (including those same vehicles).
This is a model of what Britain's roads should look like.
I can't really comment about Poynton as a place to live, but I enjoyed being there and met some delightful people. I did find the lack of B+Bs in town disappointing - the closest one I found was in Hazel Grove. Commiserations though about the high cost of rail travel.
The before/after video here makes a compelling case. I never knew this was happening so close to me ... visionary!
A truly inspiring video: I met Ben when he was trying to get this sort of thing going in Bristol. It is wonderful to see intelligence and vision being applied - well done to all involved.
The shared space outside the Hippodrome (1) looks a mess because of tarmac scars across it (2) has caused too many people to walk in front of 7 ton busses, with the obvious detrimental effect to their health. No doubt Ben would claim it "isn't a true shared space" and "they did everything wrong".
Tom Gardner I would indeed! It isn't, and they did.
Ben Hamilton-Baillie Can you tell us what they did right and wrong, please.
Who is "they"?
Ben Hamilton-Baillie Rephrase: "can you tell us what was done right and wrong, please?". I'm interested *solely* in avoiding predictable mistakes elsewhere in the future, not in apportioning past blame. Hence "they" is the set of *anonymous* individuals and organisations that created the mess, and I'm interested in the results not in the process that lead to the results.
This is a model that could work almost anywhere. It clearly works for drivers, cyclists and pedestrians, which I approve of as I use all three modes on a regular basis.
Has there been any increase in accidents at the junction since installation as drivers become more complacent and the novelty wears off?
Great Quote: "There’s a misconception that if you take away the lights people will drive fast. Actually the opposite is true. It’s the green light that encourages the speed that licenses the aggression. If you take away the light and there’s uncertainty at the junction then people naturally approach slowly and filter."
In reply to DreamTheory: you could be forgiven for thinking the current rules of the road license killing. The point of Poynton is to shift the balance of power in favour of the vulnerable, allowing motorists to rediscover their humanity. Would you jump a cash point queue? No. Well, on the road too, use your manners to give way to others who were there first. Simples
It's amazing how well that particular junction is working. I am surprised that it only cost £4m. I tricycle as my only means of transport and never go through large junctions on the road but will always use the pavement. However, the junction in the video I am sure I would feel completely at ease cycling around.
Having it with only enough space for single traffic around both roundels makes it safe for any form of transport to join in with, unlike our British roundabouts.
Very brave stuff, I really applaud the initiative and drive that must have gone into realising this excellent scheme. Non motor traffic should have 'the right of way' in all town centres I think
Great to see interesting concepts and ideas come to shine in such a phenomenal way.
However I do have a question about water runoff. England can can get quite snowy and wet and from what I gathered- you don't have any pavements - does that mean you don't have any gutters to relocate and move the water off the roads?
Martin can we do this without block paving? I guess that contributed a lot to the cost. We have an area called Stanningley in West Leeds where a similar concept is being mooted as part of the £29 million 'Cycle Superhighway' and I think it would work in Pudsey. Pedestrians there often ignore the red man on some crossings, and drivers don't have the heart to honk them. Live and Let live!
Your video and the BBC Coventry one have inspired me to look drivers in the eye and walk across in front of them just in ordinary streets. No one has actually tried to mow me down yet!
What happens when, not if, utility companies dig up the pretty surface? Are they required to reinstate the pretty surface, or can they just leave an ugly asphalt "scar"? Shame if it ends up like this, St. Augustine's Parade, Bristol
paulincumbria - you mean Howard Murray. He is that rare beast: a councillor with the guts to stand up to traffic officer jobsworths who do not know what's best, indeed they practise what's worst
Brilliant. So much better than segregation. APPCG please take note for your enquiry.
Amanda, thanks for your comment, depressing though it is. I was there with recording equipment on at least four separate days. I did not choose busy and slack times. I always wanted busy times. But the weather was against us on numerous proposed shooting dates. On the "after" filming day, I tried to interview drivers, but guess what - the traffic was always moving gently, even during evening rush-hour, so no-one could stop to talk, because they would have caused a jam. Out of space ...
I love the idea of "Shared Space" - everyone is so annoyed with all the signals/lights in Sandpoint, ID. I think this would be a great idea for our community!
Just turn the signals off, and enliven the streetscape with nice things and interesting people! It's easy. Want to borrow an angle-grinder? Always fancied visiting Sandpoint, ID!
Ben Hamilton-Baillie Are you thinking of things like the pedestrian at 3:50 in this vimeo.com/118137432 video? Any comments on the points the blind people make in the other parts of the video, especially from 2:40 onwards? Or are they to be ignored and dismissed?
Great project! I hope that this will catch on.
Fonant, in another comment which I saw somewhere, you said you wouldn't cycle with your family through the junction. Are you saying you prefer the old system of traffic lights? Are you aware than 44% of personal injury "accidents" occur at traffic lights? Maybe this is a case of 'you can't please all of the people all of the time'.
Thanks for your efforts! Let's hope we can convince more councils to consider this approach. Is there any data out there indicating how much this approach costs compared to the conventional one?
Top mRks for this scheme, Martin. I visited Drachten a few years back and can see the similarities.
Amanda. Through traffic drivers have certainly benefited, based on the initial findings on journey times and delays. These have dropped significantly since the scheme was completed. Lots of data on pre- and post-completion, and most suggests that the junction works significantly better than the traffic -signal controlled former arrangement. But the purpose of the scheme was NOT traffic flows. It was about economic regeneration of Poynton. And this has clearly worked.
What a refreshing idea to see in action.
Actually, it isn't refreshing to see it in action. It isn't all sweetness and light. An FoI request has apparently revealed that there 10 times (!) more pedestrian accidents in Poynton. FFI see www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2014/04/where-crashes-are-shared-space-and.html
See eprints.uwe.ac.uk/17937/ for an unbiassed peer-reviewed report that dispels some of the claims made by those whose livelihood is tied up with shared spaces. The entire report is well worth reading; here's a taster from the abstract: "... most pedestrians diverted away from their desire lines, gave way to vehicles in most cases and felt safer under the original road layout. ... The authors conclude that some of the claims made on behalf of shared space have overstated the available evidence" (which is academic "fighting talk").
Great film Martin! Street equality!
It was published in our newsletter Martin. If you let me have an email address I will happily email it to you. And yes the feedback we had was that it was safer for blind people before the scheme, particularly on Park Lane. When there was a regulated crossing people who couldn't see the traffic could be sure that vehicles had stopped for the red light and could cross in safety.
Thank you for your input, Dave
Thank you for this upload it's really interesting !
Peter, is this attack based on legal opinion or conjecture? It's established case law that motorists have a higher duty of care towards vulnerable road users, especially in an area like this where there is no expectation on vulnerable road users to "keep clear". I find it unbelievably unlikely that cyclists and pedestrians would be in a worse position vis-a-vis compensation than if struck on an ordinary road layout (but that, FWIW, is just my conjecture).
Good to see you here, Ted.
Also an important point to be made here: legal reform is more likely to follow the de-facto results of rebuilding our urban environments to be more humane, as here, than it is to preceed the same. For instance, if enough towns were redesigned this way, it's possible to see the government found new powers and/or issue new legal guidance because otherwise they will be getting a lot of bad press. The converse is not true.
Ben might be able to answer better the question of why people don't park on the extended sidewalks - presumably it's because they can see from the design that those are walking, not vehicle or parking areas. There are in fact quite a number of free parking bays along the A-road, and as far as I know, parking is largely unrestricted on side roads too, also there is parking behind many of the shops on Park Lane
Quite agree. Shared use is fine so long as the motor vehicles are few and far between, and not in a hurry to get somewhere. So fine for cul-de-sacs but not so good for major through routes. With the traffic in this video it's a brave pedestrian or cyclist who just crosses in front of a motor vehicle: it's shared, but only on the motorists' terms.