Core-A Gaming I believe fantasy strike and Rising Thunder to be a great game for beginners and also great for advanced players!!! I love those games I can't say it enough!!! You complain competitively and pull off Kick-Ass Combos and not feel like someone's talking down to you........... With that said Guilty Gear XXX L was probably my favorite
7:40. ppl will always find away to teabag, hmm i think yomi counter suck. it ask of the player to leave his def wide open, while other game you can keep blocking and just press 1 or 2 button to tech out if
hahahaha the sheer level of ego and self-importance of the "git gud" elitists crowd... Says who? You? Did I miss the memo on you being named ambassador of some shit? Now, on the actual argument and its apparent logic. On the surface it makes sense, I mean, if your skill ceiling is high, it doesn't affect the players picking up the game whatsoever if the floor is low, that's sound, right? Wrong. Of course the ceiling matters to players wanting to pick up the game. What's the point of picking up a game, if you know you're always gonna be mediocre at it at best? Why botter playing it at all? There's also the fact that the floor has much less room for tweaking. I mean, how complex can you make for someone to make basic stuff in the game? No one will ever make a game where you have to execute a Shun-Goku-Satsu command to throw a heavy punch. People do, however, shove laughably complex stuff as to make the ceiling higher and higher and higher. By making games like the ones mentioned in the video, you're making games that people will know from the start that there's a realistic chance they can become proficient at, that they will be able to play with everything the game has to offer and be competitive, etc. It's easy to say "oh but lowering the floor should be enough", but let's be fucking real, who here sincerely and genuinely believes it's enough to take games like Blazblue or whatever, make stupid "make some lame ass automatic combos by mashing the same button" features and call it a day, thinking throwing that bone will be enough for people wanting to play games where they can actually be competitive? It's almost insulting, it's like giving a disconnected controller to your 3 year old brother so he thinks he's doing shit. But the most glaring and obvious flaw in the argument is this: Is there like, a single unique fighting game in existence? Last time I checked there were countless... So why in hell would anyone care if these types of game exist when you can still play your dear "4000+ hours of gameplay to get good" anime style fighting games? Is there some law in effect now, where the government limits the maximum amount of fighting games that can exist at any given time, that I'm not aware of? Please...
PS: let's not even get into the pros at EVO talking highly of Fantasy Strike (for instance) and saying how it's easy to pick up and master but *hard to actually be good at* and that they wish to see more of it. I mean, what do these guys know, right? XD I mean, why make the games nuanced and being good about subtle aspects of it if you can just shove 178910981768198816 different features in it that the average person won't have time to delve into in a dozen lifetimes and call it a day, right?! XD
Smash Bros has an interesting form of intentionality. When you start, you know what your attacks are and it's super easy. Then you learn advanced techniques and combos, and intentionality goes out the window for a while as you try to get the inputs down.
Alicia Fraser nope, in a Nintendo power issue Sakurai stated that the devs new about wavedashing and the only reason they removed it was to make the game more accessible to newer players
I always thought one of the best fighting game for beginners was Samurai Shodown. It's not a game about combo so execution is not as much mandatory as some other games, it teaches you all the fundamentals like pokes, footsies, placement, zoning, etc. And teaches you to always think before pressing a button because the game was brutal in terms of damage. In fact it did the exact opposite of Fantasy Strike: punishing you for pressing a button when you shouldn't instead of rewarding you. Don't know if rewarding you for that will be more beneficial for players in the long run though.
But fantasy strike punish the player that push buttons with the Wyoming counter system. If you push, you get hit, if not you counter the grab. Samurai showdown only were more punishing (with fucking 85% damage in a single hit lol)
@@Canalbiruta Fantasy Strike's Yomi counter is kind of cheeky, and I get that it's supposed to encourage new players to A. Stop trying to mash out of pressure and B. Anticipate when people are trying to walk up and throw you, but I still don't like it as a teaching tool for the latter. Throw-teching is a little bit of a curve ball compared to teaching people how to deal with regular pressure, since it's the one time you SHOULD be pressing buttons. Teaching them to specifically not do anything when throws are happening is like teaching a new driver that because his car has long range sensors, he doesn't have to look at all before changing lanes; Yeah it works sometimes, but teaching it as a mechanic instills bad habits that have to be unlearned later on.
@@davidk7439 Well, you could also just look at it as its own unique game mechanic in the context of that game instead of imagining that the developers are trying to teach you how to play all fighting games. In reality, different fighting games have never been that similar to one another anyway, for example some games encourage hyperactivity and some encourage extreme patience, one game can't teach you how to play the other and IMO that's what gives each game its own appeal
@@benjman8369 The problem is that this game is specifically marketed and built as a stepping stone for new players entering fighting games. Learning DBFZ helps me learn how to play Skullgirls, which helps me learn Marvel, and vice versa for all. Tekken helps me learn Soul Caliber, and Virtua Fighter. MK11 helps me learn Injustice, and so on. And all of them have mechanics which are shared, like a lifebar, having combos, and throws. Fantasy Strike has a lot of mechanics that make it unique, but its throws going against nearly all other fighting games instills bad habits for every game that ISN'T fantasy strike.
Personally, I don't think Street Fighter needs to be made more accessible. What we need are accessible fighting games in addition to the hardcore ones we already have (which is the point of this video, if I'm not mistaken).
As some one who enjoys fighting games ( I play mostly dragon ball fighterz and I'm purple rank) the reason I have never played Street fighter is the complexity of the input. For me they feel over complicated
The problem in this is that Capcom wants people to buy their games so they don't go bankrupt. The way they managed SFV made a lot of people upset (even though I heard it's gotten much better compared to a couple years ago) but you can't be angry at Capcom for attempting to make a game that would expand their player base. I hope they can get to a better middle ground with the next Street Fighter, but people still play SFV, so it didn't turn out as bad as a lot of people say I guess
@@idkmanp9573 the point is to be complicated. Sf is a heavy footsie game, and most of the footsie of street fighter is to know how to use your special moves at your advantage while knowing when your opponent is going to use their's, hence why the special inputs are complicated, and often put you in a situation that is hard to go back to defense. Dbf is more like mvc in a way that, the input game is based in lots of combos and vertical movement, so i can see why you can't get used to a grounded, footsie heavy game, with weird inputs like guile's super specials
@@MessatsuGoshoryu02 the problem with sf5 accessibility wasn't just lenient inputs, is more like, the game has less options that lead to meaningful choices of your own. Like, every ryu plays the same, every guile plays the same, every juri plays the same. Sf5 doesn't have more space to diferente play styles since the game heavy hand doesn't let you do much. And to be honest, capcom is better of making another franchise that is something more like fantasy strike or divekick (the obviously best fighting game ever)
Great video, but it should be noted that the study that found that judges hand out harsher judgments later in the day was refuted by a different study. There were a lot of problems with the original study. For example, judges schedule easier cases earlier in the day.
There was a similar study that had to do with hunger, whether or not the judge had lunch recently or was anticipating lunch. The more hungry they were, the worse judgement they made, less likely to empathize, etc.
There was a game for PS1 that existed in this space called EVIL ZONE. Very simple to play. Had one attack button and a block button. all moves were made by one direction and tapping, double tapping, or holding the attack button. One of the most fun games I ever played.
Bradon Moore Yes, however that definitely doesn’t mean it “aged poorly.” We were lied to on release and just before release. Them adding things we were promised 1 AND A HALF YEARS LATER doesn’t mean the game got better. It just means the game got finished. Sorry for going on a rant
Me and my nephew just started playing FS. I'm no fighting game veteran or anything, but I've reached "intentionality" in a couple games so i tend to be able to crush beginners at most fighting games i pick up. Some basic fundamentals and directional input familiarity go a long way. However, me and my nephew, who is completely new to fighting games, are having SICK matches. I think he might like fighting games after this. It's a great game!
@@Ramsey276one bbtag is probably fine but I don't think I will ever enjoy it just because I played most of the games crossing over before it and feel so sad every time I pick a character I liked on other games
Nidhogg is like 3/4 of the way between divekick and most fighting games. It has high/low blocking, and that's basically as far as complexity goes. It's great for people who just don't like fighting games (myself included.)
nidhogg is great. it's the kind of game that you can explain to someone in 5 minutes and they'll have a decent chance of winning and yet somehow has a huge amount of complexity to it if you really look into it. none of that complexity is actually needed to have fun or win, but it's there if you wanna learn it. also the game is just extremely fun.
People just need to be more honest with themselves. What I mean is - people need to accept that they are either casual or hardcore (and there are definitely people who want to be somewhere in the middle). Not everyone aspires to be pro. Someone just wants to play the game for fun with their friends on the couch one afternoon. And then you have people who want to compete in tournaments. People should be allowed to be whichever extreme they desire. Hating on either is illogical.
In Guilty Gear Revelator xrd 2, you can choose a type of controls. You can choose between "Manual", wich is very exigent with execution and timing, and "Stylish", wich literaly has auto-combos and the window to preform special attacks is much bigger. So I won't say that no one is aware of this problem, or that there is nothing that has been done to be both accesible for casuals, and yet have depht for competitive players.
Mood. I literally just play fighting games to have fun with my friend; neither of us will ever be fgc material or pull off some crazy ToD, but it's enough to pull up a 2d anime fighter and do some crazy shit for 2 hours
There are games where they are accessable and have enough depth to stay relevant. - Power Stone - Rival Schools - Dead or Alive - Virtua FIghters - Samurai Shodown - Koihime Enbu These last three are a bit "difficult" because you need to learn a bit of the game to enjoy it, but it still more accessable than most.
@@argusy3866 yes it is a lot more than the 2d fighting games. Thats why it was always the one friends and I was playing thqt one casually. Also a friend became really good in it without online videos explaining what meaty normals are etc. When you play with nonclue it still looks good. Some of the rocknpaper scissor parts are really easy to understand etc.
Auso ~ There are some core problems with multiple mechanics in Fantasy Strike. Yomi Counter: Fantasy Strike does not have an answer to both players throwing at the same time, and I cannot think of a worse way to implement throw teching. On top of that, forward attacks in a game with proxy throws does not work.
it has a response: a random player gets thrown. so every if both players ignore the mechanic, they will get random results rather then solid. and yomi counter works just fine. every time i get yomi countered i feel like i deserved it for being too repepititve. this game is about reads, madude. complaining about a read-based mechanic in it is like complaining about assists or character swith mid-combos on marvel. both are there to add "emphasis" to the games's style.
I love that so much the hardest part of fighting games for me was always trying to figure out what combo I should do next or if I should block, Low attack, high attack and all of that and it took me forever to learn those skills, so easier motions that allow more thought to the actual thinking, reading and strategy would’ve been nice for me personally
sometimes it seems like parts of the industry still think complexity=depth and accessability means less depth. I liked the concept you call "intentionality," and I think it highlights the first turning point in accessibility wherein players will decide to drop your game or not. I want to seemore games where intentionality is found early in players, but the game is still very deep. I don't think we must go to the extreme of divekick to achive this.
I think a decent tutorial in fighting games would fix this, but i've only ever seen one in smash. Then again, smash mashing is punishable early on so it doesn't need to be in the tutorial.
The thing is fgs were developed for arcades. The desire to get better originated from wanting to play longer on your coin. There was a core gameplay loop that involved thee NEED to get better in prder to play longer. To overcome the challenge of the machine and then of other players. While fgs evolved, the core loop that took players from noobs to vets erroded (arcades). Now were left with a casm of skill and tones of technical knowledge between vets and newbies and the only thing that we have to replace that is tutorials(which when compared to arcades is obviously an inferior motivator from a psychological perpective). Without that loop players dont currently have a strong enough incentive to bridge the gap other than passion for the genre. I remember renting sf4 from blockbuster spending the entire rental trying to learn to throw a fireball. I almost gave up. If not for my intense curiousitu i would have never ended up playing competetively, an period of my life that spanes 5 years and meeting many friends.
You should have mentionned Virua Fighter 5 fs. The deepest fighting game ever has only one punch button one kick button and a guar to simplify at maximum and to have to most natural and insticive executions. Easy to play hard to master because of its unluimited creativity potential..
RIP Virtua Fighter, a fighting game series without spammy noskill fireball spam made it 100x more enjoyable with actual fist fighting than spam fighter/throw fighter and its copy cats. RIP Sega never forget.
@@cattysplat Best thing about Virtua Fighter was that you could concentrate on fighting instead of worrying about your controls. It was very intuitive for its time and it introduced the simplified control scheme for fighting games that was later used by Tekken and SSB. It's a shame that because Sega didn't add enough backstory (in most people's eyes) and stuff like that that it got labeled as boring and too hard to learn or play.
I think that one of the games that could be interesting to look at is Mortal Kombat Armageddon on Wii. Not only they clearly show the buttons to press for the combos in the characters commands menus but special attacks have they own button dedicated (although pretty awkward at first (motion controls)) and there's no charge command, no quarter circles or other thing like that for combos. And you don't have to worry about the timing, you just have to enter the right imputs really quick and the combo will go with the right rhythm. It's not perfect per say but it's definitively a good step towards accessibility while still keeping the complexity of the franchise.
Really appreciate you covering Fantasy Strike. It is a great entry point for new gamers trying to get into fighting genre. It just doesn't have a lot of publicity to draw in more players considering that it's free to play.
Core-A-Gaming videos be the coolest ever. I love how you analyze every aspect of fighting games. I wonder if you will branch out to more than fighting games.
Great video. Really, I love watching fighting games, and to an extent love playing them too. But even after months - years of casually playing them, I still cannot for the life of me perform motion inputs properly and end up missing them a lot of times. I can't really tell what my problem is, either... Wrong timing, incorrect input, strict game, who knows. But regardless, it gets tedious and annoying to play them when I make the right decision at the right time - but the move I wanted doesn't come out for one of those reasons. It's not the "defeat" aspect that bothers me, but it's the fact that it's an annoying way to lose. It makes me wish games like Rising Thunder that had easier accessibility while retaining depth of gameplay were more common. Or that Riot didn't kill Rising Thunder.
Losing cause you can't do inputs is annoying cause that's not the way you're suppose to lose. So you are right to dislike losing that way. Other dude is suppose to outplay you ya know.
Did you practise the same input for hours upon hours on end. Go into training mode and spend 6 hours trying to do the inputs consistently. Fighting games take months of lab time to get decent, if you just fight other people you wont get better
Hakkar6993 I know this is a year old comment, but it’s mostly about retaining your composure and getting in that muscle memory. if you practice your inputs consistently you’ll begin to remember them easier, and if you maintain your composure you won’t get nervous as easily so you can lock down your inputs easier. (signed; a once floundering fish)
@@zoggere4226 : That's everything I dislike about conventional fighting games. I don't really want to have devote hours on hours to beating on stationary AI to master the perfect timings for button combos. I want to be worrying about the psychological elements of the game, reading/predicting opponents and outplaying people. If I wanted to do nothing but master exacting inputs in a solo session, I'd be playing Dance Dance Revolution or a rhythm game. It's a fighting game, I want to fight people. People that are into hardcore fighters seem to think that fighting games are supposed to be more a job than a game.
Making new accessible games is awesome! Like what with fantasy strike is doing. Making existing games/franchises more “accessible” while not to be written off entirely, needs to be done much more carefully than it seems like it’s been done so far. Accessibility at the cost of depth, (in my opinion) in any of the three major areas that you mention is not worth it.
I've started playing Fantasy Strike about a week ago, and I absolutely love it. I was so put off from fighting games after SFV and DBFZ, but this...I think it's right up my lane. Simple enough to get in and play, but complicated enough to have fun with neutral/footsies and trying to read your opponent.
I'm surprised/disappointed differentiation between cognitive skill vs. mechanical skill wasn't brought to bear in your earlier "Consequences of Reducing the Skill Gap" video. Good to see them addressed here.
Yeah. I watched his video on how he plays fighting games and it's amazing. He doesn't need to be faced towards the screen to beat you, he only needs to hear things and react to them. I still don't have a slightest idea on how this works in his brain (like how does he know he's in certain range of his opponent to do a combo if he can't see the range he's in and it's not supposed to be performed at close distance) but it works.
@@gabikralj94 he can hear when he gets hit or when he hits something. If you throw low probing light kick and it hits someone is close...If he shoots he hears if the opponent block or jump. He can even gauge how long it took for the 🔥 ball to hit something to guess the range. Maybe the jump is audible too in most games.etcetcetc...modern fight game give a lot audio clues probably for what's happening...we just don't know how to make sense of that.
@@gabikralj94 well, since he has no sight, he must have extremely good hearing, and while he can't see distance from the opponent, he can probably make educated guesses based on when he last hit and where you start in the game. that's how I think it at least, I'm not really familiar with how blind people do things
THANK YOU!!!! I feel like sometime in the early 2000s I blinked and suddenly I couldn't play fighting games anymore so I just gave up on it. Hadn't heard of Fantasy Strike before so now I want to throw all my money at them.
I really enjoy the thoughtful content on this channel. it reminds me of when i first got into fighting games and i was awful and then i learned the good old 2 piece combo and beat all my friends, and then i got new friends and i was still awful lol. one of those friends took me on as a student so that i would at least be a challenge and here i am 10 years later...still awful. i forget what the point of this comment was. probably just nostalgia. keep up the good work!!
I feel like ARMS is another good example of these accessible fighting games that fall between the gulch of Divekick and everything else. All you can do at any given time is dash, jump, charge, shield, punch with either arm or grab. The depth comes from the inerplay of these abilities and how well you can use them to outplay opponents and land your hits. Also with how simple and streamlined the control scheme (except blocking with the pro controllers) it also makes reaching intentionality much easier.
it can make it accesible but it also takes away alot of variety and options when it comes to player expression and just what a character is even able to do. its why it works best with games like smash who have huge rosters of characters who often have copies of other characters or tag fighters who kind of combines the assorted moves but also sadly suffers from lots of copied characters like Fighterz atleast a quarter of that entire roster plays almost entirely the same
Honestly, if Fantasy Strike have existed in the 2000s (where I started playing fighting games) I would be a much better player than I am now. Everyone that want to learn fighting games should play Fantasy Strike
I love how the video started on the theme for Infinite Azure and ended on the Jazz cover of the same song, as if making a statement through soundtrack about how something can be enjoyed through varying levels of complexity. Maybe I am reading too much into it though.
I feel like Soul Calibur 6 has done exactly this in a complex and wonderful fashion. The game feels far, far more accessible than other fighters like T7 or SFV. On the surface of the recent beta, it retains huge character depth in decision making and matchups, and also skill ceilings are still high. Other titles can possibly (and did in my case) alienate a lot of newer people who teeter on the edge of desiring to get better yet struggling to find realistic stepping stones to improvement without an absolute truckload of time in "the lab" repeating inputs over and over until ingrained in my head. All this reduction in input-proficiency while ensuring that better players handily win through the game making space for a skilled individual to triumph AND while allowing difficult inputs to remain but not to be paramount since ridiculous 70%+ juggle combos aren't really a thing. I love it. To perform most of what your character does isn't particularly difficult, but to enable your character to run circles around the opponent, mind-gaming them and successfully baiting and/or punishing them is so satisfying but is at the core of what makes the game difficult. This is also part of the reason why losing also feels satisfying. You know you can do what they can do and without much trouble or a decade in labs, but the finesse an opponent can execute their onslaught is impressive and immediately easy to perceive. You know they've studied what, where, when and how, not just an endless string of inputs created after dancing around for most of the match looking for a launcher/poke. I don't mean this to dismiss other fighting games which have this more difficult wall in front of them, but as someone who has been out of fighting games for 15 years and only recently fallen back in love with them thanks to this new accessibility, I can say it gives me inspiration to actually practice because the steps aren't so much any easier overall to become a lot, lot better. Instead they're so much easier to become aware of whether or not you see it from yourself or your opponent.
Making a game easy to follow is key to viewers and esport growth. A game that displays its intentionality in an easy to discern but stylish way will receive the greatest praise from the new fan.
Lethal League and its sequel Lethal League Blaze are probably two of the most accessible fighting games out there, but the amount of depth it retains is amazing. I highly recommend checking it out if any of you haven't already.
Stylish system for Blazblue just confused me. I felt more in control with the default setup. If I remember correctly, it also removes certain options so players who use it effective handicap themselves.
its frowned upon if you want to be taken seriously of course, but if you're using it most players are going to understand you're not good and just want to have fun.
Great video, but do we know what the Rising Thunder devs are up to? I know Riot brought them on, but I haven't heard anything from them, and I was really excited about Rising Thunder.
No real information was given by the Rising Thunder team. The whole studio was acquired by Riot Games, but what happened to the team is up for debate. Some believe that they went to work on Riot's balance team, and some believe they were meant to develop a League of Legends inspired fighting game, but neither have been confirmed, and if the fighting game bit is true, nothing has been announced or it has been cancelled.
rising thunder was cancelled... mark my words lol the fighting game is coming and with it; its toxic fanbase which will collide with the toxic fanbase of the fgc . ladies an gentleman grab the popcorn and watch the blood bath.
I think, for honor is an extremely interesting and rewarding to master unconventional fighting game. There us basically no tutorial, and you have to get all your information from external sources. But the depth of the game is simply incredible
There's nothing wrong with accessibility in fighting games but it gets a bad rap because it's usually so poorly implemented. Games like MvCI seem to be under the impression that if you give the player one button combos that makes it easier to approach but it doesn't. There's so much knowledge required to play a fighting game adequately that simple technical ability isn't enough. Positioning, footsies, defense, etc. These are important concepts that simplified special moves and one button combos don't teach you. The game feels shallow as a result and beginning players will still be getting thrashed by the more experienced ones and they won't understand why. Fantasy Strike seems to understand this by still requiring you to think about your actions but keeping the game simple enough that you won't be so overwhelmed by a better player.
N00BSYBORG MvCI isn't the only fighter with one button mash combos. KOF14 has it on at all times and can't be disabled. BlazBlue and GG have seperate modes as well. Hell MvC1 has a mode that has 1 button special moves. A hadouken.......with one button press. The fact is, anyone can mash but they won't win if they don't understand advanced concepts like nuetral, spacing, footsies, etc. And everyone who has played MvCI can confirm its still quite complex. MvC has a bigger problem in its mediocre roster and awful presentation. But if there's one thing it does have, is complexity.
Damion Dixon How is any of that relative to the point I'm making? MvCI's shit roster has nothing to do with teaching beginners how to play a game. I only used it as an example because it was brought up in the video. I'm well aware other fighting games do this too and they're just as useless there. Find me a new player who uses simplified controls in Rev2 and can put up a fight against people who've been playing it for years. You can't because GG is too complex of a game to expect a beginner to figure out with just simplified controls. Most fighting games are.
I agree with what ur saying in all honesty, but i feel like accessibility in fighting games is getting out of hand right now. Yeah, auto combos and stuff dont really make a difference on a competitive level, but like you said, it makes the game feel dry and boring. Take Street Fighter for example, from SF4 u have all these 1 frame links, execution heavy characters, and when you see someone use a character that combo has like 4 one frame links or something like daigo vs momochi at Stunfest USF4, its hype as hell to see. Now with SFV, u have not even like half the amount of combos u see compared to USF4. U have a Medium hit link into a special or something similar. It takes nowhere near the same amount of execution as before and as a player who knows how easy it is, its nothing rly special to see. I guess what im getting at is from a spectators perspective it takes some of the hype away from the genre imo.
My first fighting game was doa4 i believe. Learned some combos, beat the story modes and then made the decision to try some matches online and i got an achievement.... lose 20 matches in a row. Needless to say i havnt played a (real) fighting game since.
I think the biggest problem with fighting game accessibility is that they are mostly played by veterans, because they are so complex and therefor have a gigantic skill gap from button masher, to decesion maker. When a developer try to make a game easier to play ie. one button combos, or easier specials people who have invested hundreds of hours into the genre feel cheated. Rightfully so I might add. So as a developer you are kinda' stuck with two choices, make the game more accessible and alienate your core audience or make the game more complex for the veterans so they don't get bored.
I just played Fantasy Strike for the first time today and had a lot of fun. The rollback and crossplay help me find matches even in my country. I chose to main Geiger, because the suit aesthetic and the time stop powers are to big character sellers for me. Plus I enjoy his mechanica.
Fantasy Strike may get me back into fighting games. Rising Thunder was going to do that, but RIOT Games had to go and ruin everyone's fun. A major hurdle with most fighting games is whether or not you start when the game launches. The larger the window between launch and when you start playing exponentially increases the amount of information/matchups/tech/etc. you'll need to memorize. So you're left with 2 options: 1) Get in on the ground floor and help build that encyclopedia of information with the community, 2) Find a simpler game that won't punish you for not knowing everything on day 1. This is why I want Fantasy Strike to succeed.
This video remembered me of Super Smash Land a fangame of Super Smash Bros that demake it to a game boy level, it is simple enough to only have 4 movement buttons, a jump button, and an attack button.
This was actually a good video. Unlike many of your other videos, you don't take a position for which you argue within this video, making this one more informative, rather than an attempt to convince others and yourself, that your position is right one.
honestly, I've always found fighting games fun ... untill i exit the group of 2 other friends tht are around my level, then it feels like a god came down just to make my life miserable against my friends i can play with intent, and have a match tht can go either way, but i can't get variety because as soon as i try i get someone who seems to know all the awnsers and wont give me a chance. And this makes it feel like it's impossible to get into, so needless to say, id love to find a fighting game with a low skill floor allowing me to play casually with the world, and a high skill ceiling so there's actually a community
I really like that whole "easily learned; hardly mastered" thing about games. It's why I like Smash so much. Another game I dig for that reason is Hammerfight.
This was an excellent analysis. I'm not much of a competitive FG gamer but I always appreciate the methodology behind the design of these types of games.
I think accessibility in video games as a WHOLE is good, that's why I like motion controls. Not everyone understands video game controllers, how to use them, or button inputs, so that way, people like that can play video games too and enjoy them.
Hadn't heard of fantasy strike until now, that game looks super cool. Another good fighting game to bring up for that would be Pocket rumble, it's inputs are just holding diagonal so it's super easy to get into and understand
Thanks for actually teaching me what Junpei does. There's not enough videos on P4AU, and a lot less guides. Moopoke doesn't even do guides and he plays that game religiously.
I actually don't think fighting games are less accessible than other genres. I used to think that, but not anymore. I simply think they are too niche (not because of them per se, but because, well, the situation developed that way, it could have been the other way around in an alternate history or whatever) which reflects in certain ways. 1-developers have this incestuous relation with the "community" and thus simply refuse to experiment - not with depth and such, but with, say better tutorials, accessibility, easing one into the game etc. It's a vicious circle of being "true to fgc". Someone who's not Sirlin, but a big developer instead (think blizzard with overwatch, which many might mock, but it's actually a very accessible fps, unlike others, yet it has a high skill ceiling, unlike others (modern shooters)), needs to break that circle. Risking of being a "fgc pariah". 2-perhaps lack of funds or a consequence of point 1, there are no good tutorials in fighting games. GG is lauded only because it has a good tutorial RELATIVE to other fighting games. But the tutorial is bare bones, it doesn't provide you with deliberate course of action scenarios (no, missions don't do that), it doesn't mask itself into a non-chore-looking system etc. Let's take a look at a genre perhaps even tougher to break into and play (at least true in my case), RTS. If we take a look at, say, SC, we'll see that we actually have a 20 hour or so long tutorial which doesn't feel like one. You are put in actual gameplay situations and you've been given gradually more complex tasks and your skill and awareness are being spontaneously elevated through the course of the campaign. New mechanical elements you have to worry about are introduced very slowly, but consistently, masked as story elements. You never get that feeling of doing work, you want to "see how the story goes". And you are actually happy when you are burdened by the system because your brain interprets those new elements as some reward, instead of "more homework". This is of course, not enough to make you a solid player, but you are definitely prepared to queue for a multiplayer game and probably place somewhere where you belong - instead of NOT HAVING a place to belong because the worst player in the whole game is a demigod. 3-to continue from the point 2, lack of player base which will constitute a working MM. Some fighting games (not all) are enjoyable on the lowest level and provide steady learning curves. This isn't in correlation with their inherent depth or difficulty. For example, SFV is unrewarding at the lowest level, as matches will look like two people mashing jabs for the whole time. Tekken, on the other hand, even though harder to master, offers excellent lowest level experience. Stuff comes out, people are happy... I've even seen money matches at parties. Tekken is the only fighting game absolutely uninitiated people ask for if a console is nearby at some gathering. Meaning, this can be done. But, there aren't enough players to form a good matchmaking. I don't think MOBA games are easy. For me, at least, they are harder than fighting games, but I'll take that as a personal thing. Regardless, let's take something like DotA. It's a heavy legacy-based game, it exists for a long time and it's extremely complex, not to mention the knowledge one has to possess to play it even at a below average level. Well, you can install DotA and play it off the bat. Because DotA is a very popular game and, regardless of how bad you are, MM is bound to match you with 9 others who are just as hopeless as you are. This isn't an inherent fault with fighting games, but rather with their popularity - but I don't think their lack of popularity stems from them being difficult. I think it's just a random status quo. For example, one look at a FPS game control interface is enough for a headache for an uninitiated person. I think people regard FPS games as "easier to get into" just because most people are ALREADY experienced at FPS games, more or less. I mean, in order to even play it at a lowest of the lowest level, you need to move with one hand, look around with the other AND perform other skills and moves. Add to that the notion that mouselook is something completely counter-intuitive regarding transferring mouse movements to a 3d plane and you have a recipe for disaster. I had people telling me how street fighter is hard and quake isn't. Then I ask them how many fps games have they played before quake and how many fighting games they played before street fighter and, well, you can guess the answer. Not to mention that they are very, VERY bad at quake:) 4-this stems from 1. everything that's "suffering-based" is lauded and carried as a badge of honor. Sometimes validly, sometimes without any sense, carried just by that incestuous nature I've mentioned. "hey, I am a beginner and everyone wrecks me and I can't do anything" - a very valid issue. Which is looked down upon as weakness or some kind of lack of willpower or battle scars or whatever. Which is ridiculous. Playing someone 10% better than you? Good thing. Playing 1v1 basketball against Michael Jordan with you being a fat highschool kid? Not good. Nothing to learn from there. That matchup should be legally forbidden:) But that's what happens. And no, it doesn't happen because fighting games are inherently like that, it happens due to lack of player base to form a working MM. BUT - the problem lies elsewhere - this notion is LAUDED. This notion is something perpetuated by the community, then it's perpetuated by the developers and we have that vicious circle. I am not the one to praise some theme park "skilless" approach, but to glorify something that's objectively a problem - well, that's a problem, I'd say. 5-again, stemming from 1 (I do think this is the biggest hurdle). Devs make fighting games for fighting game fans, instead of trying to make fighting games as fighting games, but everyone is welcome to try them (big difference, actually). If Justin Wong can play and like the game, that's good direction. No, that's not good direction. But, mark my words, if some big developer even made a fighting game with a 20 hour long GOOD tutorial (not GG-good, but starcraft-good), they would be booed by the "fgc" because hey, that tutorial could have been three characters or five stages or whatever instead of regurgitating something "we already know". I guarantee that. Sirlin won't accomplish anything with his game. Fighting games need Overwatch effect, a high profile, surgically executed and expensive fighting game which can carry the burden of both high end play and low end play - and attract the player base to support that. I've tried Fantasy Strike. It's actually hard to play in a way. It's wonky, I can't jump normally, sf or gg feel much more intuitive, regardless of one's proficiency. It's hard to make a breakthrough with an indie product in a market that doesn't need indie products to do that.
People don't give Fantasy Strike enough praise as a gateway drug for newcomers to get into the genre. As someone who had very little experience with fighting games, I was able to get to a point of making meaningful decisions within 2 hours of practice/research. I feel as though I have achieved some level of competence. Most importantly, I'm having fun since I am not so hopelessly mechanically far behind everyone else. For comparison, I had previously dumped 10 hours into Skullgirls and I still felt like I had no idea wtf I (or my opponent) was doing. All the "fun" strategic gameplay I had never experienced (but kept being told existed) seemed to be locked behind 30 hours of practicing combos and getting roflstomped by veterans in quick match.
This is exactly what fantasy strike did for me. Excellent analogy. That game gave me the desire to build a more complex microscope, and look further into the cosmos of fighting games. Love the content.
The fighting game genre must learn....take chess, very accessible but almost impossible to master. The problem is control systems. Many fighting games have what seems simple controls but can have difficult directional and buttons inputs to learn, especially if your unfamiliar to the fighting game genre. Time and effort is needed to learn the control systems (before you can even get into game mechanics). What is needed is more accessible/quick to pick up and play/easy to learn control systems that don't damage the game mechanics. It can be done. I think this could help new comers to the fighting game genre, yes the hardcore fans will not like change but the fighting game genre needs to evolve. The fighting game genre needs to stay with the times, the arcade is dead and home console rules and that's where it will shine. The fighting game genre needs to reach this big home console audience by becoming more accessible.
Instead of changing existing titles, making new ones would be better. The ones that stayed (SF, Tekken, Guilty Gear) are still here because those that played them liked how the game is. Suddenly changing that would just be horrible to the established community. We should instead give the accessibility to new games. Instead of forcing existing games to be easier, we should leave it be for those who are dedicated and desire the complexity while creating a new game to have that accessibility for newcomers. A variety is good. Arcsys has been doing this for a while. Guilty gear and blaz blue are notorious for their execution but they are still beloved while games like cross tag and Grandblue are more accessible and easier for those who want to try the genre out. Dont force games to be the same.
What's wrong with making a dragon punch easier to do? All making it hard achieves is discouraging some people from playing. Anyone who's been playing for a while will be doing it right every time. Personally I'd much rather be doing the moves and playing the game rather than discouraging people because some people want a higher skill floor.
Especially since it was already been made easier but without writing it down, so beginners have no clue of the easier commqnds try the harder thing while more experienced people do it while crouching
The zig zag input you do for the shouyuken is something I never like. I play Marvel vs Capcom 2 and some times I try to input it, I accidently do a Haduken instead
You have to make sure you press the button ON THE DOWN FORWARDS, if you press it while holding forwards it’s too late (I know this comment is very late but still)
I feel like game complexity shouldn't be a from input complexity. The input should be as easy as possible, with positioning, timing, and technique providing depth. I whish there was a fighting game where smooth input control was also rewarded.
Oh god, Fantasy Strike is a game I've been looking for for the last few weeks! How come Steam has never recommended it to me? And there is even a macOS version!
I'm making a fighting game for my final year project at university, and I'm in the process of analysing existing products. Divekick is a very intriguing pick and I think I'll do a lot of analysis of it, because it is so simple and my game is not focused on depth but just being a game, and also AI opponents. It really strips back all the fighting of the fighting genre, but remains fun and challenging, and still somewhat deep.
Damn, dat No Man Sky burn was savage......though a bit outdated. Still surprised by the lack of a Smash section, though. Maybe I should try Fantasy Strike. As for MvCI, only Ryu & Doctor Strange still have DP motions so far.
Are you going to revisit this now with SFVI's modern controls in mind? Its clear its something Capcom is trying for years and modern input is the latest iteration of this input reduction, and it felt like the community received it quite well?
Sure im not him, but a few things Id like to note. The depth is still there as far as I know. You still cant sonic boom going forward since you need to press back + sp like geiger. It is still on average faster, so moves done with modern inputs have 20% dmg reduction. The only complaint that then stands is people using classic inputs on modern mode, but then doing modern critical. Gives a speedy crit, but still high dmg on all other moves. If they nerf that imo its fine. People have mixed feelings about it, but if they adjust the critical somehow Im fine with it.
There was this old fighting game I really like to play on my PC in the late 90s that only used the joystick and one button. It was pretty deep for one button. Basically if you used the joystick without the button held you moved like in most fighting games, however if you were holding the button pushing any of the 8 directions produced a different attack. The attacks were different based on if you were in the air, standing, or crouching. It lead to some interesting game play for example holding down and tapping the attack button was different from holding the attack button and then tapping down. Likewise if you held down to crouch, then pressed the attack button, then tapped down it was a third different thing. Everyone still had super moves because you might have that while standing, holding the attack button and pushing up and forward was a dragon punch. Moves were super easy to pull off but there were a surprising number of varieties you could do with such a simple input scheme. I really wish I could remember the name of it, because it seems to fit exactly the discussion you are having in this video.
i feel like with all the rumors of marvel infinite inputs and combos being easier it might create a disconnect and a separation between the 2 games like the separation between melee and smash 4 players
That already happened with the MvC2 scene. A bunch of MvC2 players hated MvC3 so they didn't play it and just stuck with MvC2. Happens with most games that change a lot between entries, it's very pronounced in the SF community. ST and Third Strike still have people who play just them even now and SF4 is still getting side tournaments at events. Even outside of the Capcom games, there are Guilty Gear fans who don't like Xrd and just stuck with AC+R. It happens with any series that fundamentally changes between entries.
Nobody starts Smash understanding how the game is played at higher levels. They start out mashing the best attacks and frantically trying to knock the opponent off the stage. People seem to think having 1-button specials somehow makes Smash and Fantasy Strike achieve the same thing. FS is miles ahead of Smash when it comes to accessibility.
IMHO that deviation from the norm is what makes or breaks a sequel. Fans of the old game don't have to buy a new one, if the last one is still mechanically good with a healthy community, while the new one may attract crowds from both directions of the scale. Look at the latest Tekken, all the fancy stuff they've done to improve it but it is still the same core game. Learning curve is what usually breaks it for me. Like, it's easier to learn the mechanics and a character in Tekken, Smash Bros, than in, say, Street Fighter. Lowering the bar of entry is acceptable if it makes the game more fun/fluent (Dota vs Hots). Players who can frame read in SF will surely be able to do so in other games, thus gaining a competitive edge. Personally, I like GG's and especially BlazBlue's for their stories, art-style and unique characters - yet - even in the modes where you learn your combos I wasn't able to execute most of the advanced moves (ref.: 4:48) aaaand the community is almost non-existent on PS4 (Blazblue, EU east).
I absolutely love fantasy strike and I usually play Tekken - one of the hardest fighting games to play. I've gotten my partner to play FS and she only used to ever know button mashing in fighting games, and now she's able to to put people into mixups, play footsies, be defensive, and know when it's appropriate to jump. Fantasy Strike does some amazing things and I think it's really a fighting game for everyone, no matter if you're a novice or a veteran. It's also impossible to forget how to play so you can still enjoy the fighting games you already are dedicated to while still being able to play competently in FS at any given time.
IDK if simplicity is my issue with fighting games. My issue tends to be in intuition. A lot of moves and combos in fighting games when their inputs are designed seem to only take the difficulty of the input vs its power. When I think of well implemented input, I want the input to cognitively map out in a way that makes sense. Like, say a game has a punch button and a kick button, and in order to do a heavy version of both you hold punch and release and in order to do a medium you double tap. Then if you want to transform these further, the vertical direction you press before or after effects direction and left and right direction effects the level of aggression (effecting say, hit box range and recovery frames) I could add further layers and this would contribute to complexity and tactics, but retain a level of intuitive flow for decision making for a player. To some degree, I feel like if you were dedicated to this as a player, you could try remaping your controls in arbitrarily designed input fighting games on a per character basis (assuming you don't do tag battles) in order to artificially somewhat recreate something like this (sort of). This sort of shows that some of the complexity isn't really complexity but merely irritating counter intuition.
It's a good ramp for going into more complex fighting games. But there are still things in Fantasy Strike like command normals in a game with proximity grab that are very unintuitive. I'm kind of more interested in designing fighting games that make players want to get better or more competitive instead of giving up so easily. I think non FG players could pick up Fantasy Strike. Understand it fairly quickly and have fun while thinking they are pretty good. But when they do try to move on they won't get that almost instant gratification of understanding and doing well. So they will go back or give up. So is another baby step up from Fantasy Strike the answer? I think according to the method in this video that would be the conclusion. But when is constantly learning another fighting game too cumbersome? I personally gave up on anime fighters after learning and competing in 4 brand new titles within a year. If we look at other genres we can see that players will learn complex mechanics, execution, and strategy. But the gratification is also there. I don't think we have that in fighting games yet.
As for someone who is an outsider to Fighting games, I agree. I have a longer spiel on this but I'll keep it short. Two games I think Fighting games could learn from to improve accessibility without sacrificing complexity or lowering the skill Ceiling. Freespace 2 and Reciever Freespace 2 because of how it measured out it's tutorials then threw the player in a few situations where they actually needed to use them in order for them to stick, and Reciever where the game used a help menu and an A.I to guide the player in how to use a complicated firearm to the point it becomes muscle memory. I'm not saying carbon copy these, but I think it's something fighting game devs can take lessons from. I'm sure others can throw out more examples
What about things like Stylish mode in GG? Wouldn't that be the step up from Fantasy Strike? It would lower the execution barrier, so instead of having to learn inputs and combos, they can focus on the instant gratification of understanding the match. From there they can slowly learn to execute stuff once they get more comfortable with the game and want to learn more options.
Thank you for this video! I understand pretty well the purpose of Fantasy Strike. I am trying to do it myself, trying to get into fighting games considering I did never play any of them as a child. I know games like Smash Bros, that can be played as a party game, or Pokken, with mecanics that prevent you from being stuck in a combo, really help me a lot to understand the genre :)
Good grief the FGC elitists (or wannabe elitists) here... I think there's quite an easy distinction to be made: Is this something that a player can learn on his own just by firing up the game, going to training mode, and drill-and-killing the same input motion over and over? We want that time to go to zero as fast as possible. That's the skill floor. The "you must be able to perform X, Y, and Z or you can't play the game competitively." For instance, SHFFLing and wavedashing in melee. As someone that tried getting the hang of those techniques but couldn't, there is nothing my opponent does that prevents me from doing those techniques--it's literally a matter of muscle memory. So to my opponent, whether or not I spent a thousand hours practicing those inputs, or was able to master them in two hours is completely irrelevant. At the end of the day, it's ultimately the following question: is the player playing against his opponent, or the controls? Anyone who says there needs to be any amount of "fighting the controls" is the reason that fighting games are so niche and not bigger than they are.
" is the player playing against his opponent, or the controls? Anyone who says there needs to be any amount of "fighting the controls" is the reason that fighting games are so niche and not bigger than they are." This. Very much this. If a game's depth is heavily dependant on fighting the controls, then that's not depth. It's a crutch. An illusion. If a game isn't fun if the special move or super move inputs are easy, that's not a problem with input ease. It's the devs not making a good game.
"Is the player playing against his opponent, or the controls? Anyone who says there needs to be any amount of "fighting the controls" is the reason that fighting games are so niche and not bigger than they are." This blatantly false. You know what game has terrible controls? League of legends. And presumably other MOBAs. And yet those games are popular as fuck. Also, your melee arguments are flawed. SHFFLing, wavedashing, and other advanced tech are not required to play, have fun, or understand the game. They are only required if you're trying to play optimally, which *should* reward dedicated practice. Optimal play *should* be hard to execute. Watching pros do superhuman shit is core to the spectator experience for sports of any variety. Now if you really want to criticize melee, bring up discoverability. Like, it's not obvious that any of the tech exists if you don't already know about it, so even if you want to practice, you don't know how. This is a legitimate flaw.
@@warlordsquerk5338 Most game's depth is partially dependent on physical skills. "Fighting the controls" may be frustrating to a beginner, but in most cases it ends up adding depth to the game, while also increasing the skill ceiling. The goal of development shouldn't be to remove all executional skill, but to design the game in a way that beginners don't perceive it as "fighting the controls". Executional barriers are only a problem of player perception, not a problem themselves (see physical sports). Saying they should always be removed and pretending a game's depth will be completely unaffected is naive.
@@AllUpOns What do you mean when it comes to "terrible controls" when referring to League of Legends. MOBAS, in general, have a whole lot less of "fighting controls." than fighting games who wear the crown for sure.
Funny, the portion about Fantasy Strike and this topic of accessibility makes me think a lot about this fighting game I'm playing right now. It's a fangame for an anime that was popular in Japan just earlier this year, so audience is already pretty large from the get go. And then the description of some of Fantasy Strike's mechanics reminded me of this particular game as well. ruclips.net/video/ptORAwAJN5c/видео.html I did a translation of the game's tutorial video for its surface level mechanics here ruclips.net/video/r6mZHoSBtNw/видео.html it's only 6 minutes long. It's a 4-button fighter where each button is clearly doing something different and there's not much information overload through each phase of being a new->knows mechanics->experienced->good player. In this game, specials are executed by just direction + a button, and everyone has their own invulnerable special (like a Shoryuken). Specials are definitely more valuable than normals with how they have low minimum scaling, the obvious special properties like being projectiles or lunging attacks, combo extensions, etc. However, the limiter for these like Rising Thunder's cooldown is that there's a meter for using specials. You need to have your "Skill Gauge" filled to use a special, and you can stock up to 3 meters of this. This meter will not fill up normally while combo'ing, giving an added sense of balance. There are no highs and lows, but blocking is the usual hold-back mechanic, so crossups are indeed a thing. Normals here are two buttons A and B, but each of these 2 buttons are different. A could be short for "Auto-combo"; anyone could simply mash this button to perform very barebones combo with most characters, and ends with the "Blowback", which is a universal move for launchers/ground bounce/wall bounces like a variation of Marvel vs. Capcom 3's special button. B is the "Blowback" button and people could opt to use their B's earlier in the combo instead of following the Auto-combo, giving combo variety. The Blowback is very powerful. Successful B recovers one Skill meter and 1 meter for the "Kemono gauge", which is a 5-bar gauge used for both Supers and Bursts. Successful B also launches/wall bounces/ground bounces the opponent, which means you can continue combo'ing after it, even infinite with it... However, to balance it, there is an important mechanic that also seems to be kinda unique to this game: Counter, which is the direct opposition to Blowbacks. You can counter Blowbacks by inputting the opposite direction of the blowback: for example, to counter a Launch Blowback, you must hold down; to counter a wall bounce blowback you must hold forward; ground bounce blowback, hold up. *This all involves letting go of the Block direction,* which gives it the depth it needs by making both the attacker and defender think about what each other is doing; the attacker could get a potential reset if they know the defender is not blocking or continue his 'infinite' if he is, but if the defender decides right then he could stop or even turn around the momentum. There's deep level mechanics to this game that also come from how each of its controls interact, which I won't get in to because that would make this comment longer than it already is. I mainly played UMvC3, Blazblue, and Skullgirls back when I was still competing, and these are pretty damn deep games, especially Skullgirls, but I enjoy this game I'm playing right now very much and the Japanese community have players of different varying skillsets and it's easy for the good players and the new players to connect. I think it's an okay example of games that could fill the in-between. It also has a bunch of fighting game shout outs in it. The character I main references a number of Doctor Doom's moves, for example. (don't tell the Pokken community, but KemoFre Fight is what I wish Pokken would have been)
I honestly can't believe this is what's become of anime. I remember in the 80s I watched Bubblegum Crisis and was introduced to cyberpunk. Project Ako had girls running up walls and the zaniest shit imaginable. Everything from noir, to comedy, scifi space operas and somehow even managed to put some cowboys in them long before Firefly ever tried the same, and then there is this. I don't, know the kind of person whose market for this is. I can't imagine how this kind of thing appeals, I mean I know there is to each their own but I can at least usually 'get it'. I can 'get' people even liking getting peed on before this even if I think its gross, it's warm and there's the whole sexual reveal thing and anticipation whatever. I can get wanting to hike up everest, I think it's stupid and you could die and the excitement of being at the top and hurray omg did you see that dead guy on the way up that was nuts ok lets head back down....yeah stupid, but I get it. I don't think this game is stupid. I don't think it's gross. I don't get how or why or who could play it with any sort of respect. Like, what are you a fan of about it? What the hell could make someone sit in a room and watch others play it, etc. Im really confused.
I really hope that the movement to keep the complexity and depth of fighting games don't turn to harassing people who literally can't play the game or can't enjoy the game without assistance options and things like that.
Lethal league is a great example of a simple but deep fighting game too! I'd recommend it to everybody who wants to get the fun of a fighting game without all the complexity
![[ GAME MUGEN ] SCREENPACK CHIP MUGEN](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/q69_It8bb3A/mqdefault.jpg)
The original title of the video was confusing to a lot of people, so I changed it. Now it's more accessible.
+Core-A Gaming nothing like good old self-deprecation
Core-A Gaming stop lowering the skill gap lol
Core-A Gaming I believe fantasy strike and Rising Thunder to be a great game for beginners and also great for advanced players!!! I love those games I can't say it enough!!! You complain competitively and pull off Kick-Ass Combos and not feel like someone's talking down to you........... With that said Guilty Gear XXX L was probably my favorite
7:40. ppl will always find away to teabag, hmm i think yomi counter suck. it ask of the player to leave his def wide open, while other game you can keep blocking and just press 1 or 2 button to tech out if
That's so meta.
lowering skill floor is okay
lowering skill ceiling is not
And this is what fighting games fail to pull off, anymore.
This guy nailed it
Top tier comment
hahahaha the sheer level of ego and self-importance of the "git gud" elitists crowd...
Says who? You? Did I miss the memo on you being named ambassador of some shit?
Now, on the actual argument and its apparent logic. On the surface it makes sense, I mean, if your skill ceiling is high, it doesn't affect the players picking up the game whatsoever if the floor is low, that's sound, right? Wrong. Of course the ceiling matters to players wanting to pick up the game. What's the point of picking up a game, if you know you're always gonna be mediocre at it at best? Why botter playing it at all? There's also the fact that the floor has much less room for tweaking. I mean, how complex can you make for someone to make basic stuff in the game? No one will ever make a game where you have to execute a Shun-Goku-Satsu command to throw a heavy punch. People do, however, shove laughably complex stuff as to make the ceiling higher and higher and higher. By making games like the ones mentioned in the video, you're making games that people will know from the start that there's a realistic chance they can become proficient at, that they will be able to play with everything the game has to offer and be competitive, etc. It's easy to say "oh but lowering the floor should be enough", but let's be fucking real, who here sincerely and genuinely believes it's enough to take games like Blazblue or whatever, make stupid "make some lame ass automatic combos by mashing the same button" features and call it a day, thinking throwing that bone will be enough for people wanting to play games where they can actually be competitive? It's almost insulting, it's like giving a disconnected controller to your 3 year old brother so he thinks he's doing shit. But the most glaring and obvious flaw in the argument is this: Is there like, a single unique fighting game in existence? Last time I checked there were countless... So why in hell would anyone care if these types of game exist when you can still play your dear "4000+ hours of gameplay to get good" anime style fighting games? Is there some law in effect now, where the government limits the maximum amount of fighting games that can exist at any given time, that I'm not aware of? Please...
PS: let's not even get into the pros at EVO talking highly of Fantasy Strike (for instance) and saying how it's easy to pick up and master but *hard to actually be good at* and that they wish to see more of it. I mean, what do these guys know, right? XD I mean, why make the games nuanced and being good about subtle aspects of it if you can just shove 178910981768198816 different features in it that the average person won't have time to delve into in a dozen lifetimes and call it a day, right?! XD
Smash Bros has an interesting form of intentionality. When you start, you know what your attacks are and it's super easy. Then you learn advanced techniques and combos, and intentionality goes out the window for a while as you try to get the inputs down.
To be fair a lot of those "Advanced techniques" are glitches that were never intended to be in the game.
Alicia Fraser actually the devs knew about some of these techniques
+Red Hawk They didn't know about them until after Melee was released, and after that they did everything they could to get rid of them
Alicia Fraser nope, in a Nintendo power issue Sakurai stated that the devs new about wavedashing and the only reason they removed it was to make the game more accessible to newer players
Truer words have never been spoken. I took me about 5 minutes to learn how to wavedash, but at least a week before I could do it effectively in battle
I always thought one of the best fighting game for beginners was Samurai Shodown. It's not a game about combo so execution is not as much mandatory as some other games, it teaches you all the fundamentals like pokes, footsies, placement, zoning, etc. And teaches you to always think before pressing a button because the game was brutal in terms of damage. In fact it did the exact opposite of Fantasy Strike: punishing you for pressing a button when you shouldn't instead of rewarding you. Don't know if rewarding you for that will be more beneficial for players in the long run though.
Not the one i have. The tutorial is a video with no retentive function.
But fantasy strike punish the player that push buttons with the Wyoming counter system. If you push, you get hit, if not you counter the grab. Samurai showdown only were more punishing (with fucking 85% damage in a single hit lol)
@@Canalbiruta Fantasy Strike's Yomi counter is kind of cheeky, and I get that it's supposed to encourage new players to A. Stop trying to mash out of pressure and B. Anticipate when people are trying to walk up and throw you, but I still don't like it as a teaching tool for the latter.
Throw-teching is a little bit of a curve ball compared to teaching people how to deal with regular pressure, since it's the one time you SHOULD be pressing buttons. Teaching them to specifically not do anything when throws are happening is like teaching a new driver that because his car has long range sensors, he doesn't have to look at all before changing lanes; Yeah it works sometimes, but teaching it as a mechanic instills bad habits that have to be unlearned later on.
@@davidk7439 Well, you could also just look at it as its own unique game mechanic in the context of that game instead of imagining that the developers are trying to teach you how to play all fighting games. In reality, different fighting games have never been that similar to one another anyway, for example some games encourage hyperactivity and some encourage extreme patience, one game can't teach you how to play the other and IMO that's what gives each game its own appeal
@@benjman8369 The problem is that this game is specifically marketed and built as a stepping stone for new players entering fighting games. Learning DBFZ helps me learn how to play Skullgirls, which helps me learn Marvel, and vice versa for all. Tekken helps me learn Soul Caliber, and Virtua Fighter. MK11 helps me learn Injustice, and so on. And all of them have mechanics which are shared, like a lifebar, having combos, and throws.
Fantasy Strike has a lot of mechanics that make it unique, but its throws going against nearly all other fighting games instills bad habits for every game that ISN'T fantasy strike.
4:58 lmao I just tried these inputs in Smash and they do execute the True Shoryuken.
Bruuuuhhhhh
So thaaaaats how crescent kick turns into Shoryu
Smash ken and ryu have true inputs. There's even a move you can only do with true input.
Terry Bogard: *Hold my hat.*
Carlos Castor it quite literally says it works in the moves list
Personally, I don't think Street Fighter needs to be made more accessible. What we need are accessible fighting games in addition to the hardcore ones we already have (which is the point of this video, if I'm not mistaken).
As some one who enjoys fighting games ( I play mostly dragon ball fighterz and I'm purple rank) the reason I have never played Street fighter is the complexity of the input. For me they feel over complicated
The problem in this is that Capcom wants people to buy their games so they don't go bankrupt. The way they managed SFV made a lot of people upset (even though I heard it's gotten much better compared to a couple years ago) but you can't be angry at Capcom for attempting to make a game that would expand their player base. I hope they can get to a better middle ground with the next Street Fighter, but people still play SFV, so it didn't turn out as bad as a lot of people say I guess
@@idkmanp9573 the point is to be complicated. Sf is a heavy footsie game, and most of the footsie of street fighter is to know how to use your special moves at your advantage while knowing when your opponent is going to use their's, hence why the special inputs are complicated, and often put you in a situation that is hard to go back to defense. Dbf is more like mvc in a way that, the input game is based in lots of combos and vertical movement, so i can see why you can't get used to a grounded, footsie heavy game, with weird inputs like guile's super specials
@@MessatsuGoshoryu02 the problem with sf5 accessibility wasn't just lenient inputs, is more like, the game has less options that lead to meaningful choices of your own. Like, every ryu plays the same, every guile plays the same, every juri plays the same. Sf5 doesn't have more space to diferente play styles since the game heavy hand doesn't let you do much. And to be honest, capcom is better of making another franchise that is something more like fantasy strike or divekick (the obviously best fighting game ever)
@@Canalbiruta yeah dragon Ball fighterz also uses a lot of neutral. And I'm good at neutral in third strike I just have trouble with combos
Great video, but it should be noted that the study that found that judges hand out harsher judgments later in the day was refuted by a different study. There were a lot of problems with the original study. For example, judges schedule easier cases earlier in the day.
what about the candy?
There was a similar study that had to do with hunger, whether or not the judge had lunch recently or was anticipating lunch. The more hungry they were, the worse judgement they made, less likely to empathize, etc.
Cool, thanks for the heads up.
If you increase a judge's mortality salience they also become harsher as evidenced by Terror Management Theory :D
Why no mention of Pocket Rumble in the video?
There was a game for PS1 that existed in this space called EVIL ZONE. Very simple to play. Had one attack button and a block button. all moves were made by one direction and tapping, double tapping, or holding the attack button. One of the most fun games I ever played.
Glad someone remembered it!
"The worse your decisions become" - shows clicking on add to cart button for No Man's Sky. I'm dead right now 😂
best part of the video lol
3:04
For anyone wondering where that is.
If this video was made today, the game would have been replaced with: FALLOUT 76 or Battlefield V. (pick your poison)
That part actually aged somewhat poorly. NMS is actually a pretty sweet game now.
Bradon Moore Yes, however that definitely doesn’t mean it “aged poorly.” We were lied to on release and just before release. Them adding things we were promised 1 AND A HALF YEARS LATER doesn’t mean the game got better. It just means the game got finished.
Sorry for going on a rant
Me and my nephew just started playing FS. I'm no fighting game veteran or anything, but I've reached "intentionality" in a couple games so i tend to be able to crush beginners at most fighting games i pick up. Some basic fundamentals and directional input familiarity go a long way. However, me and my nephew, who is completely new to fighting games, are having SICK matches. I think he might like fighting games after this. It's a great game!
great to hear that! well done.
*Starts the video by talking about a persona 3 character*
Me: I'm listening
That's why I love P4U
They made RPG Character
FGC CHARACTER
Pity BBtag didn't keep the status ailments
MARIN KARIN!
"WTF Jin?! ARE YOU HIGH!?!"
i didn't expect that
@@Ramsey276one bbtag is probably fine but I don't think I will ever enjoy it just because I played most of the games crossing over before it and feel so sad every time I pick a character I liked on other games
And now 4 years later so many people understand what you mean
I seriously thought you were going to mention nidhogg
Nidhogg is like 3/4 of the way between divekick and most fighting games. It has high/low blocking, and that's basically as far as complexity goes. It's great for people who just don't like fighting games (myself included.)
Nidhogg has a lot more going for it than that. It has many completely unique mechanics. Trust me when I say Nidhogg’s meta is completely underexplored
Nidhogg is a fucking masterpiece, though if smash is not a fighting game, much less is nidhogg
Carlos Espinosa full agree. Don’t tell me Smash isn’t a fighter but try to defend nidhogg
nidhogg is great. it's the kind of game that you can explain to someone in 5 minutes and they'll have a decent chance of winning and yet somehow has a huge amount of complexity to it if you really look into it. none of that complexity is actually needed to have fun or win, but it's there if you wanna learn it. also the game is just extremely fun.
People just need to be more honest with themselves. What I mean is - people need to accept that they are either casual or hardcore (and there are definitely people who want to be somewhere in the middle). Not everyone aspires to be pro.
Someone just wants to play the game for fun with their friends on the couch one afternoon. And then you have people who want to compete in tournaments. People should be allowed to be whichever extreme they desire. Hating on either is illogical.
Yet the industry is trying to remove one extreme.
In Guilty Gear Revelator xrd 2, you can choose a type of controls. You can choose between "Manual", wich is very exigent with execution and timing, and "Stylish", wich literaly has auto-combos and the window to preform special attacks is much bigger. So I won't say that no one is aware of this problem, or that there is nothing that has been done to be both accesible for casuals, and yet have depht for competitive players.
Yups
Mood. I literally just play fighting games to have fun with my friend; neither of us will ever be fgc material or pull off some crazy ToD, but it's enough to pull up a 2d anime fighter and do some crazy shit for 2 hours
I wanna like, but that dang 69
There are games where they are accessable and have enough depth to stay relevant.
- Power Stone
- Rival Schools
- Dead or Alive
- Virtua FIghters
- Samurai Shodown
- Koihime Enbu
These last three are a bit "difficult" because you need to learn a bit of the game to enjoy it, but it still more accessable than most.
DOA accessible?.... oook
@@argusy3866 yes it is a lot more than the 2d fighting games. Thats why it was always the one friends and I was playing thqt one casually.
Also a friend became really good in it without online videos explaining what meaty normals are etc.
When you play with nonclue it still looks good. Some of the rocknpaper scissor parts are really easy to understand etc.
I’d say blazblue cross tag battle is also on this list
5:19 this dude's right eye is warping
THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING!
Good eye!
hey folks
if youre coming here binging all the core a videos
i suggest you stop scrolling and not read the comments
its pretty rough down here
Probably gonna buy Fantasy Strike now. Thanks for the recommendation!
Syn Starr wait no stop! Pocket Rumble is just straight up better.
why not just buy both then? :>
Auso ~ There are some core problems with multiple mechanics in Fantasy Strike. Yomi Counter: Fantasy Strike does not have an answer to both players throwing at the same time, and I cannot think of a worse way to implement throw teching. On top of that, forward attacks in a game with proxy throws does not work.
it has a response: a random player gets thrown. so every if both players ignore the mechanic, they will get random results rather then solid. and yomi counter works just fine. every time i get yomi countered i feel like i deserved it for being too repepititve. this game is about reads, madude. complaining about a read-based mechanic in it is like complaining about assists or character swith mid-combos on marvel. both are there to add "emphasis" to the games's style.
Auso ~ ...random results for a CORE mechanic is just bad game design, especially for a 2D fighter. Go play Pocket Rumble and you'll see what I mean.
Infinite Azure Stage Music - 10/10
i know i love that song
How about that smooth jazz rendish? I didn't know I needed a sax version until watching this video.
You know shits about to get real when that Makoto theme comes on!
Nine the Phanthom That, The Skullgirls character select theme, or the Megaman X Sigma Stage theme
I share Sirlin's view on Fantasy Strike and really hope to see more games like it in the future. I'd love to see games across that whole spectrum.
I love that so much the hardest part of fighting games for me was always trying to figure out what combo I should do next or if I should block, Low attack, high attack and all of that and it took me forever to learn those skills, so easier motions that allow more thought to the actual thinking, reading and strategy would’ve been nice for me personally
This is why we need another Power Stone and Bushido Blade. Both are immensely fun and MUCH easier to pickup than most 'traditional' fighting games.
MrStrikecentral power stone is just a 3d smash Bros.
And it's much better too.
MrStrikecentral Are you sure about that?
Yeah. Pretty damn sure. How about you?
MrStrikecentral smash>>>>>>>>>>>power stone
sometimes it seems like parts of the industry still think complexity=depth and accessability means less depth. I liked the concept you call "intentionality," and I think it highlights the first turning point in accessibility wherein players will decide to drop your game or not. I want to seemore games where intentionality is found early in players, but the game is still very deep. I don't think we must go to the extreme of divekick to achive this.
I think a decent tutorial in fighting games would fix this, but i've only ever seen one in smash. Then again, smash mashing is punishable early on so it doesn't need to be in the tutorial.
The thing is fgs were developed for arcades. The desire to get better originated from wanting to play longer on your coin. There was a core gameplay loop that involved thee NEED to get better in prder to play longer. To overcome the challenge of the machine and then of other players. While fgs evolved, the core loop that took players from noobs to vets erroded (arcades). Now were left with a casm of skill and tones of technical knowledge between vets and newbies and the only thing that we have to replace that is tutorials(which when compared to arcades is obviously an inferior motivator from a psychological perpective).
Without that loop players dont currently have a strong enough incentive to bridge the gap other than passion for the genre.
I remember renting sf4 from blockbuster spending the entire rental trying to learn to throw a fireball. I almost gave up. If not for my intense curiousitu i would have never ended up playing competetively, an period of my life that spanes 5 years and meeting many friends.
You should have mentionned Virua Fighter 5 fs. The deepest fighting game ever has only one punch button one kick button and a guar to simplify at maximum and to have to most natural and insticive executions. Easy to play hard to master because of its unluimited creativity potential..
RIP Virtua Fighter, a fighting game series without spammy noskill fireball spam made it 100x more enjoyable with actual fist fighting than spam fighter/throw fighter and its copy cats. RIP Sega never forget.
@@cattysplat Best thing about Virtua Fighter was that you could concentrate on fighting instead of worrying about your controls. It was very intuitive for its time and it introduced the simplified control scheme for fighting games that was later used by Tekken and SSB. It's a shame that because Sega didn't add enough backstory (in most people's eyes) and stuff like that that it got labeled as boring and too hard to learn or play.
I think that one of the games that could be interesting to look at is Mortal Kombat Armageddon on Wii. Not only they clearly show the buttons to press for the combos in the characters commands menus but special attacks have they own button dedicated (although pretty awkward at first (motion controls)) and there's no charge command, no quarter circles or other thing like that for combos. And you don't have to worry about the timing, you just have to enter the right imputs really quick and the combo will go with the right rhythm.
It's not perfect per say but it's definitively a good step towards accessibility while still keeping the complexity of the franchise.
Really appreciate you covering Fantasy Strike. It is a great entry point for new gamers trying to get into fighting genre. It just doesn't have a lot of publicity to draw in more players considering that it's free to play.
Core-A-Gaming videos be the coolest ever. I love how you analyze every aspect of fighting games. I wonder if you will branch out to more than fighting games.
Great video.
Really, I love watching fighting games, and to an extent love playing them too. But even after months - years of casually playing them, I still cannot for the life of me perform motion inputs properly and end up missing them a lot of times. I can't really tell what my problem is, either... Wrong timing, incorrect input, strict game, who knows.
But regardless, it gets tedious and annoying to play them when I make the right decision at the right time - but the move I wanted doesn't come out for one of those reasons. It's not the "defeat" aspect that bothers me, but it's the fact that it's an annoying way to lose. It makes me wish games like Rising Thunder that had easier accessibility while retaining depth of gameplay were more common. Or that Riot didn't kill Rising Thunder.
Losing cause you can't do inputs is annoying cause that's not the way you're suppose to lose. So you are right to dislike losing that way. Other dude is suppose to outplay you ya know.
Did you practise the same input for hours upon hours on end.
Go into training mode and spend 6 hours trying to do the inputs consistently.
Fighting games take months of lab time to get decent, if you just fight other people you wont get better
Yes, I did. Eventually I start doing them the slightest bit more consistently, but soon as I get into an actual match that goes out the window.
Hakkar6993 I know this is a year old comment, but it’s mostly about retaining your composure and getting in that muscle memory. if you practice your inputs consistently you’ll begin to remember them easier, and if you maintain your composure you won’t get nervous as easily so you can lock down your inputs easier.
(signed; a once floundering fish)
@@zoggere4226 : That's everything I dislike about conventional fighting games. I don't really want to have devote hours on hours to beating on stationary AI to master the perfect timings for button combos. I want to be worrying about the psychological elements of the game, reading/predicting opponents and outplaying people. If I wanted to do nothing but master exacting inputs in a solo session, I'd be playing Dance Dance Revolution or a rhythm game. It's a fighting game, I want to fight people. People that are into hardcore fighters seem to think that fighting games are supposed to be more a job than a game.
Making new accessible games is awesome! Like what with fantasy strike is doing.
Making existing games/franchises more “accessible” while not to be written off entirely, needs to be done much more carefully than it seems like it’s been done so far. Accessibility at the cost of depth, (in my opinion) in any of the three major areas that you mention is not worth it.
7:35 okay five inputs. when a game is simplistic i like to see if it has less than five essential inputs. why? donkey kong bongos.
The Junpei intro introduced me to P4U and I'm so glad it did
Iori is so, so hard but so, so satisfying
I've started playing Fantasy Strike about a week ago, and I absolutely love it. I was so put off from fighting games after SFV and DBFZ, but this...I think it's right up my lane. Simple enough to get in and play, but complicated enough to have fun with neutral/footsies and trying to read your opponent.
I'm surprised/disappointed differentiation between cognitive skill vs. mechanical skill wasn't brought to bear in your earlier "Consequences of Reducing the Skill Gap" video. Good to see them addressed here.
The hell theres a blind fgc player?!
Yeah. I watched his video on how he plays fighting games and it's amazing. He doesn't need to be faced towards the screen to beat you, he only needs to hear things and react to them. I still don't have a slightest idea on how this works in his brain (like how does he know he's in certain range of his opponent to do a combo if he can't see the range he's in and it's not supposed to be performed at close distance) but it works.
@@gabikralj94 he can hear when he gets hit or when he hits something. If you throw low probing light kick and it hits someone is close...If he shoots he hears if the opponent block or jump. He can even gauge how long it took for the 🔥 ball to hit something to guess the range. Maybe the jump is audible too in most games.etcetcetc...modern fight game give a lot audio clues probably for what's happening...we just don't know how to make sense of that.
@@gabikralj94 well, since he has no sight, he must have extremely good hearing, and while he can't see distance from the opponent, he can probably make educated guesses based on when he last hit and where you start in the game.
that's how I think it at least, I'm not really familiar with how blind people do things
Blind SPEEDRUNNING
FIREBALL ECHOLOCATION!!!
Link please?
THANK YOU!!!! I feel like sometime in the early 2000s I blinked and suddenly I couldn't play fighting games anymore so I just gave up on it. Hadn't heard of Fantasy Strike before so now I want to throw all my money at them.
I really enjoy the thoughtful content on this channel. it reminds me of when i first got into fighting games and i was awful and then i learned the good old 2 piece combo and beat all my friends, and then i got new friends and i was still awful lol. one of those friends took me on as a student so that i would at least be a challenge and here i am 10 years later...still awful.
i forget what the point of this comment was. probably just nostalgia. keep up the good work!!
I feel like ARMS is another good example of these accessible fighting games that fall between the gulch of Divekick and everything else. All you can do at any given time is dash, jump, charge, shield, punch with either arm or grab. The depth comes from the inerplay of these abilities and how well you can use them to outplay opponents and land your hits. Also with how simple and streamlined the control scheme (except blocking with the pro controllers) it also makes reaching intentionality much easier.
Agreed, I play ARMS with my friends who aren't good at smash because it is much easier for them to get into.
I think that having similiar inputs in all characteres can make a fighting game very accesible. Like Smash or DBFighterz
Pokken Tournament also does this.
Melty Blood Type Lumina has most inputs standarized, which helps you test and learn different character more easily
it can make it accesible but it also takes away alot of variety and options when it comes to player expression and just what a character is even able to do. its why it works best with games like smash who have huge rosters of characters who often have copies of other characters or tag fighters who kind of combines the assorted moves but also sadly suffers from lots of copied characters like Fighterz atleast a quarter of that entire roster plays almost entirely the same
Early Mortal Kombat games were like that, too. They all had the same basic moves, but different specials.
I fuckin suck at fighting games but can't stop watching your vids
No tea bagging in Fantasy Strike haha! Didn't even think of that.Great video as always Gerald. Man I need a PC...
Honestly, if Fantasy Strike have existed in the 2000s (where I started playing fighting games) I would be a much better player than I am now. Everyone that want to learn fighting games should play Fantasy Strike
I'm still sad about Rising Thunder
Alex Franco and now we might get a rising thunder reskinned as league of legend fighting game.
I love how the video started on the theme for Infinite Azure and ended on the Jazz cover of the same song, as if making a statement through soundtrack about how something can be enjoyed through varying levels of complexity. Maybe I am reading too much into it though.
good observation, I think you're right
I feel like Soul Calibur 6 has done exactly this in a complex and wonderful fashion.
The game feels far, far more accessible than other fighters like T7 or SFV. On the surface of the recent beta, it retains huge character depth in decision making and matchups, and also skill ceilings are still high. Other titles can possibly (and did in my case) alienate a lot of newer people who teeter on the edge of desiring to get better yet struggling to find realistic stepping stones to improvement without an absolute truckload of time in "the lab" repeating inputs over and over until ingrained in my head. All this reduction in input-proficiency while ensuring that better players handily win through the game making space for a skilled individual to triumph AND while allowing difficult inputs to remain but not to be paramount since ridiculous 70%+ juggle combos aren't really a thing.
I love it.
To perform most of what your character does isn't particularly difficult, but to enable your character to run circles around the opponent, mind-gaming them and successfully baiting and/or punishing them is so satisfying but is at the core of what makes the game difficult. This is also part of the reason why losing also feels satisfying. You know you can do what they can do and without much trouble or a decade in labs, but the finesse an opponent can execute their onslaught is impressive and immediately easy to perceive. You know they've studied what, where, when and how, not just an endless string of inputs created after dancing around for most of the match looking for a launcher/poke.
I don't mean this to dismiss other fighting games which have this more difficult wall in front of them, but as someone who has been out of fighting games for 15 years and only recently fallen back in love with them thanks to this new accessibility, I can say it gives me inspiration to actually practice because the steps aren't so much any easier overall to become a lot, lot better. Instead they're so much easier to become aware of whether or not you see it from yourself or your opponent.
WHO'S DA MAN?
JUNPEI
TAH DA DA DAAAA
Ace detective
@@shisuiki More like Stupei, Ace Defective
sofielundsskolan *D O N ‘ T L O O K U P*
he da man
Do nothing to counter throws is really intresting. The joke you made with it was on point
Making a game easy to follow is key to viewers and esport growth. A game that displays its intentionality in an easy to discern but stylish way will receive the greatest praise from the new fan.
8:55 that's Vega's (dictator) throw animation right there
Didn’t mention that smash is incredibly accessible with children able to have a good time while also being very competitive
cuse smosh NOTTA feithingeam ....
only melee is competitive
Well no considering Nintendo made changes to Sm4sh and Ultimate to make it more competitive
Salty Tsunami ...and failed miserably
@@bonelesscommunism4031 its a fine game other than online but to be fair... almost every good fighting game has shit online
Lethal League and its sequel Lethal League Blaze are probably two of the most accessible fighting games out there, but the amount of depth it retains is amazing. I highly recommend checking it out if any of you haven't already.
I'm kind of disappointed Blazblue and Guilty Gear's stylish systems were not mentioned. While being flawed, these are relevant to the subject at hand.
Stylish system for Blazblue just confused me. I felt more in control with the default setup. If I remember correctly, it also removes certain options so players who use it effective handicap themselves.
Yeah, I'm a total noob at fighting games, but simply fell in love with the GG franchise and using the "Stylish" mode would feel like a betrayal... :/
its frowned upon if you want to be taken seriously of course, but if you're using it most players are going to understand you're not good and just want to have fun.
its more for those ppl who like to mash the buttons, not really for ppl try to get good.
Because people hate BB over GG, but still dislike GG over older fighters.
Great video, but do we know what the Rising Thunder devs are up to? I know Riot brought them on, but I haven't heard anything from them, and I was really excited about Rising Thunder.
Schizomantis I tried to find some information about it all over the place but I couldn't find it.
Me too, I might just be looking in the wrong places. I'm almost positive they're still working on a game, so I guess we just have to be patient.
No real information was given by the Rising Thunder team. The whole studio was acquired by Riot Games, but what happened to the team is up for debate. Some believe that they went to work on Riot's balance team, and some believe they were meant to develop a League of Legends inspired fighting game, but neither have been confirmed, and if the fighting game bit is true, nothing has been announced or it has been cancelled.
Rising Thunder itself has been cancelled.
rising thunder was cancelled... mark my words lol the fighting game is coming and with it; its toxic fanbase which will collide with the toxic fanbase of the fgc . ladies an gentleman grab the popcorn and watch the blood bath.
I think, for honor is an extremely interesting and rewarding to master unconventional fighting game. There us basically no tutorial, and you have to get all your information from external sources. But the depth of the game is simply incredible
There's nothing wrong with accessibility in fighting games but it gets a bad rap because it's usually so poorly implemented. Games like MvCI seem to be under the impression that if you give the player one button combos that makes it easier to approach but it doesn't. There's so much knowledge required to play a fighting game adequately that simple technical ability isn't enough.
Positioning, footsies, defense, etc. These are important concepts that simplified special moves and one button combos don't teach you. The game feels shallow as a result and beginning players will still be getting thrashed by the more experienced ones and they won't understand why. Fantasy Strike seems to understand this by still requiring you to think about your actions but keeping the game simple enough that you won't be so overwhelmed by a better player.
N00BSYBORG MvCI isn't the only fighter with one button mash combos. KOF14 has it on at all times and can't be disabled. BlazBlue and GG have seperate modes as well.
Hell MvC1 has a mode that has 1 button special moves. A hadouken.......with one button press.
The fact is, anyone can mash but they won't win if they don't understand advanced concepts like nuetral, spacing, footsies, etc. And everyone who has played MvCI can confirm its still quite complex.
MvC has a bigger problem in its mediocre roster and awful presentation. But if there's one thing it does have, is complexity.
Damion Dixon How is any of that relative to the point I'm making? MvCI's shit roster has nothing to do with teaching beginners how to play a game. I only used it as an example because it was brought up in the video.
I'm well aware other fighting games do this too and they're just as useless there. Find me a new player who uses simplified controls in Rev2 and can put up a fight against people who've been playing it for years. You can't because GG is too complex of a game to expect a beginner to figure out with just simplified controls. Most fighting games are.
I agree with what ur saying in all honesty, but i feel like accessibility in fighting games is getting out of hand right now. Yeah, auto combos and stuff dont really make a difference on a competitive level, but like you said, it makes the game feel dry and boring. Take Street Fighter for example, from SF4 u have all these 1 frame links, execution heavy characters, and when you see someone use a character that combo has like 4 one frame links or something like daigo vs momochi at Stunfest USF4, its hype as hell to see. Now with SFV, u have not even like half the amount of combos u see compared to USF4. U have a Medium hit link into a special or something similar. It takes nowhere near the same amount of execution as before and as a player who knows how easy it is, its nothing rly special to see. I guess what im getting at is from a spectators perspective it takes some of the hype away from the genre imo.
My first fighting game was doa4 i believe. Learned some combos, beat the story modes and then made the decision to try some matches online and i got an achievement.... lose 20 matches in a row. Needless to say i havnt played a (real) fighting game since.
I think the biggest problem with fighting game accessibility is that they are mostly played by veterans, because they are so complex and therefor have a gigantic skill gap from button masher, to decesion maker. When a developer try to make a game easier to play ie. one button combos, or easier specials people who have invested hundreds of hours into the genre feel cheated. Rightfully so I might add.
So as a developer you are kinda' stuck with two choices, make the game more accessible and alienate your core audience or make the game more complex for the veterans so they don't get bored.
"doing nothing is too hard for you?" x'D
I just played Fantasy Strike for the first time today and had a lot of fun. The rollback and crossplay help me find matches even in my country. I chose to main Geiger, because the suit aesthetic and the time stop powers are to big character sellers for me. Plus I enjoy his mechanica.
Fantasy Strike may get me back into fighting games. Rising Thunder was going to do that, but RIOT Games had to go and ruin everyone's fun. A major hurdle with most fighting games is whether or not you start when the game launches. The larger the window between launch and when you start playing exponentially increases the amount of information/matchups/tech/etc. you'll need to memorize. So you're left with 2 options: 1) Get in on the ground floor and help build that encyclopedia of information with the community, 2) Find a simpler game that won't punish you for not knowing everything on day 1.
This is why I want Fantasy Strike to succeed.
This video remembered me of Super Smash Land a fangame of Super Smash Bros that demake it to a game boy level, it is simple enough to only have 4 movement buttons, a jump button, and an attack button.
This was actually a good video. Unlike many of your other videos, you don't take a position for which you argue within this video, making this one more informative, rather than an attempt to convince others and yourself, that your position is right one.
honestly, I've always found fighting games fun ... untill i exit the group of 2 other friends tht are around my level, then it feels like a god came down just to make my life miserable
against my friends i can play with intent, and have a match tht can go either way, but i can't get variety because as soon as i try i get someone who seems to know all the awnsers and wont give me a chance. And this makes it feel like it's impossible to get into, so needless to say, id love to find a fighting game with a low skill floor allowing me to play casually with the world, and a high skill ceiling so there's actually a community
Git gud scrub
JK
just play smash brudda
try playing games with matchmaking, competitive games will always have this skill gap.
7:04 No, that's Damon Gant.
And I'm glad he's finally in a fighting game.
I’ve played Fantasy Strike and I really enjoy it. It’s easy to teach to friends too because it’s so simple.
I really like that whole "easily learned; hardly mastered" thing about games. It's why I like Smash so much. Another game I dig for that reason is Hammerfight.
this is my fourth time watching this video but tbh it's only to rewatch the divekick footage
TRY NO JOYSTICKS.
This was an excellent analysis. I'm not much of a competitive FG gamer but I always appreciate the methodology behind the design of these types of games.
I think accessibility in video games as a WHOLE is good, that's why I like motion controls. Not everyone understands video game controllers, how to use them, or button inputs, so that way, people like that can play video games too and enjoy them.
Hadn't heard of fantasy strike until now, that game looks super cool.
Another good fighting game to bring up for that would be Pocket rumble, it's inputs are just holding diagonal so it's super easy to get into and understand
SaltyTuna that time stop tho
This video introduced me to Fantasy Strike and Divekick. For that I say, thank you.
Decision Fatigue: the thing that leads people to buying no man's sky
Lmao
Fantasy strike has gotten a huge glowup
Thanks for actually teaching me what Junpei does.
There's not enough videos on P4AU, and a lot less guides. Moopoke doesn't even do guides and he plays that game religiously.
I actually don't think fighting games are less accessible than other genres. I used to think that, but not anymore. I simply think they are too niche (not because of them per se, but because, well, the situation developed that way, it could have been the other way around in an alternate history or whatever) which reflects in certain ways.
1-developers have this incestuous relation with the "community" and thus simply refuse to experiment - not with depth and such, but with, say better tutorials, accessibility, easing one into the game etc. It's a vicious circle of being "true to fgc". Someone who's not Sirlin, but a big developer instead (think blizzard with overwatch, which many might mock, but it's actually a very accessible fps, unlike others, yet it has a high skill ceiling, unlike others (modern shooters)), needs to break that circle. Risking of being a "fgc pariah".
2-perhaps lack of funds or a consequence of point 1, there are no good tutorials in fighting games. GG is lauded only because it has a good tutorial RELATIVE to other fighting games. But the tutorial is bare bones, it doesn't provide you with deliberate course of action scenarios (no, missions don't do that), it doesn't mask itself into a non-chore-looking system etc.
Let's take a look at a genre perhaps even tougher to break into and play (at least true in my case), RTS. If we take a look at, say, SC, we'll see that we actually have a 20 hour or so long tutorial which doesn't feel like one. You are put in actual gameplay situations and you've been given gradually more complex tasks and your skill and awareness are being spontaneously elevated through the course of the campaign. New mechanical elements you have to worry about are introduced very slowly, but consistently, masked as story elements. You never get that feeling of doing work, you want to "see how the story goes". And you are actually happy when you are burdened by the system because your brain interprets those new elements as some reward, instead of "more homework".
This is of course, not enough to make you a solid player, but you are definitely prepared to queue for a multiplayer game and probably place somewhere where you belong - instead of NOT HAVING a place to belong because the worst player in the whole game is a demigod.
3-to continue from the point 2, lack of player base which will constitute a working MM. Some fighting games (not all) are enjoyable on the lowest level and provide steady learning curves. This isn't in correlation with their inherent depth or difficulty. For example, SFV is unrewarding at the lowest level, as matches will look like two people mashing jabs for the whole time. Tekken, on the other hand, even though harder to master, offers excellent lowest level experience. Stuff comes out, people are happy... I've even seen money matches at parties. Tekken is the only fighting game absolutely uninitiated people ask for if a console is nearby at some gathering.
Meaning, this can be done.
But, there aren't enough players to form a good matchmaking. I don't think MOBA games are easy. For me, at least, they are harder than fighting games, but I'll take that as a personal thing. Regardless, let's take something like DotA. It's a heavy legacy-based game, it exists for a long time and it's extremely complex, not to mention the knowledge one has to possess to play it even at a below average level. Well, you can install DotA and play it off the bat. Because DotA is a very popular game and, regardless of how bad you are, MM is bound to match you with 9 others who are just as hopeless as you are.
This isn't an inherent fault with fighting games, but rather with their popularity - but I don't think their lack of popularity stems from them being difficult. I think it's just a random status quo.
For example, one look at a FPS game control interface is enough for a headache for an uninitiated person. I think people regard FPS games as "easier to get into" just because most people are ALREADY experienced at FPS games, more or less. I mean, in order to even play it at a lowest of the lowest level, you need to move with one hand, look around with the other AND perform other skills and moves. Add to that the notion that mouselook is something completely counter-intuitive regarding transferring mouse movements to a 3d plane and you have a recipe for disaster. I had people telling me how street fighter is hard and quake isn't. Then I ask them how many fps games have they played before quake and how many fighting games they played before street fighter and, well, you can guess the answer. Not to mention that they are very, VERY bad at quake:)
4-this stems from 1. everything that's "suffering-based" is lauded and carried as a badge of honor. Sometimes validly, sometimes without any sense, carried just by that incestuous nature I've mentioned. "hey, I am a beginner and everyone wrecks me and I can't do anything" - a very valid issue. Which is looked down upon as weakness or some kind of lack of willpower or battle scars or whatever. Which is ridiculous. Playing someone 10% better than you? Good thing. Playing 1v1 basketball against Michael Jordan with you being a fat highschool kid? Not good. Nothing to learn from there. That matchup should be legally forbidden:) But that's what happens. And no, it doesn't happen because fighting games are inherently like that, it happens due to lack of player base to form a working MM. BUT - the problem lies elsewhere - this notion is LAUDED. This notion is something perpetuated by the community, then it's perpetuated by the developers and we have that vicious circle.
I am not the one to praise some theme park "skilless" approach, but to glorify something that's objectively a problem - well, that's a problem, I'd say.
5-again, stemming from 1 (I do think this is the biggest hurdle). Devs make fighting games for fighting game fans, instead of trying to make fighting games as fighting games, but everyone is welcome to try them (big difference, actually). If Justin Wong can play and like the game, that's good direction. No, that's not good direction. But, mark my words, if some big developer even made a fighting game with a 20 hour long GOOD tutorial (not GG-good, but starcraft-good), they would be booed by the "fgc" because hey, that tutorial could have been three characters or five stages or whatever instead of regurgitating something "we already know". I guarantee that.
Sirlin won't accomplish anything with his game. Fighting games need Overwatch effect, a high profile, surgically executed and expensive fighting game which can carry the burden of both high end play and low end play - and attract the player base to support that. I've tried Fantasy Strike. It's actually hard to play in a way. It's wonky, I can't jump normally, sf or gg feel much more intuitive, regardless of one's proficiency. It's hard to make a breakthrough with an indie product in a market that doesn't need indie products to do that.
People don't give Fantasy Strike enough praise as a gateway drug for newcomers to get into the genre. As someone who had very little experience with fighting games, I was able to get to a point of making meaningful decisions within 2 hours of practice/research. I feel as though I have achieved some level of competence. Most importantly, I'm having fun since I am not so hopelessly mechanically far behind everyone else. For comparison, I had previously dumped 10 hours into Skullgirls and I still felt like I had no idea wtf I (or my opponent) was doing. All the "fun" strategic gameplay I had never experienced (but kept being told existed) seemed to be locked behind 30 hours of practicing combos and getting roflstomped by veterans in quick match.
This is exactly what fantasy strike did for me. Excellent analogy. That game gave me the desire to build a more complex microscope, and look further into the cosmos of fighting games. Love the content.
The fighting game genre must learn....take chess, very accessible but almost impossible to master. The problem is control systems. Many fighting games have what seems simple controls but can have difficult directional and buttons inputs to learn, especially if your unfamiliar to the fighting game genre. Time and effort is needed to learn the control systems (before you can even get into game mechanics). What is needed is more accessible/quick to pick up and play/easy to learn control systems that don't damage the game mechanics. It can be done. I think this could help new comers to the fighting game genre, yes the hardcore fans will not like change but the fighting game genre needs to evolve. The fighting game genre needs to stay with the times, the arcade is dead and home console rules and that's where it will shine. The fighting game genre needs to reach this big home console audience by becoming more accessible.
Instead of changing existing titles, making new ones would be better. The ones that stayed (SF, Tekken, Guilty Gear) are still here because those that played them liked how the game is. Suddenly changing that would just be horrible to the established community.
We should instead give the accessibility to new games. Instead of forcing existing games to be easier, we should leave it be for those who are dedicated and desire the complexity while creating a new game to have that accessibility for newcomers.
A variety is good.
Arcsys has been doing this for a while. Guilty gear and blaz blue are notorious for their execution but they are still beloved while games like cross tag and Grandblue are more accessible and easier for those who want to try the genre out.
Dont force games to be the same.
"The worst your decision will become"
-hovers over buying No Man's Sky
Ok that was funny
"worse", but sure.
I'm a huge proponent of accessibility in fighting games. Easy to play does not mean easy to win. Great analysis.
What's wrong with making a dragon punch easier to do? All making it hard achieves is discouraging some people from playing. Anyone who's been playing for a while will be doing it right every time. Personally I'd much rather be doing the moves and playing the game rather than discouraging people because some people want a higher skill floor.
Especially since it was already been made easier but without writing it down, so beginners have no clue of the easier commqnds try the harder thing while more experienced people do it while crouching
The zig zag input you do for the shouyuken is something I never like. I play Marvel vs Capcom 2 and some times I try to input it, I accidently do a Haduken instead
I pretty much ALWAYS do that 😭
You have to make sure you press the button ON THE DOWN FORWARDS, if you press it while holding forwards it’s too late (I know this comment is very late but still)
I usually just do: right, down, right
It tends to work for me most of the time
Started playing fantasy strike after watching this video a couple of months back
Got master ranking of 299 yesterday
Thanks n awesome content
I feel like game complexity shouldn't be a from input complexity. The input should be as easy as possible, with positioning, timing, and technique providing depth.
I whish there was a fighting game where smooth input control was also rewarded.
T1Oracle I feel like what you’re talking about is smash
There’s fantasy strike and it’s free
PLAY FIGHTERZ
Oh god, Fantasy Strike is a game I've been looking for for the last few weeks! How come Steam has never recommended it to me? And there is even a macOS version!
I'm making a fighting game for my final year project at university, and I'm in the process of analysing existing products. Divekick is a very intriguing pick and I think I'll do a lot of analysis of it, because it is so simple and my game is not focused on depth but just being a game, and also AI opponents. It really strips back all the fighting of the fighting genre, but remains fun and challenging, and still somewhat deep.
Damn, dat No Man Sky burn was savage......though a bit outdated. Still surprised by the lack of a Smash section, though. Maybe I should try Fantasy Strike.
As for MvCI, only Ryu & Doctor Strange still have DP motions so far.
Are you going to revisit this now with SFVI's modern controls in mind? Its clear its something Capcom is trying for years and modern input is the latest iteration of this input reduction, and it felt like the community received it quite well?
Sure im not him, but a few things Id like to note. The depth is still there as far as I know. You still cant sonic boom going forward since you need to press back + sp like geiger. It is still on average faster, so moves done with modern inputs have 20% dmg reduction. The only complaint that then stands is people using classic inputs on modern mode, but then doing modern critical. Gives a speedy crit, but still high dmg on all other moves. If they nerf that imo its fine. People have mixed feelings about it, but if they adjust the critical somehow Im fine with it.
There was this old fighting game I really like to play on my PC in the late 90s that only used the joystick and one button. It was pretty deep for one button. Basically if you used the joystick without the button held you moved like in most fighting games, however if you were holding the button pushing any of the 8 directions produced a different attack.
The attacks were different based on if you were in the air, standing, or crouching. It lead to some interesting game play for example holding down and tapping the attack button was different from holding the attack button and then tapping down. Likewise if you held down to crouch, then pressed the attack button, then tapped down it was a third different thing.
Everyone still had super moves because you might have that while standing, holding the attack button and pushing up and forward was a dragon punch. Moves were super easy to pull off but there were a surprising number of varieties you could do with such a simple input scheme.
I really wish I could remember the name of it, because it seems to fit exactly the discussion you are having in this video.
i feel like with all the rumors of marvel infinite inputs and combos being easier it might create a disconnect and a separation between the 2 games like the separation between melee and smash 4 players
What's the game in between that capcom tries to kill off like nintendo tries to kill off PM?
Some Mugen fan made game with 10x more content than infinite
That already happened with the MvC2 scene. A bunch of MvC2 players hated MvC3 so they didn't play it and just stuck with MvC2. Happens with most games that change a lot between entries, it's very pronounced in the SF community. ST and Third Strike still have people who play just them even now and SF4 is still getting side tournaments at events. Even outside of the Capcom games, there are Guilty Gear fans who don't like Xrd and just stuck with AC+R.
It happens with any series that fundamentally changes between entries.
Nobody starts Smash understanding how the game is played at higher levels. They start out mashing the best attacks and frantically trying to knock the opponent off the stage. People seem to think having 1-button specials somehow makes Smash and Fantasy Strike achieve the same thing. FS is miles ahead of Smash when it comes to accessibility.
IMHO that deviation from the norm is what makes or breaks a sequel. Fans of the old game don't have to buy a new one, if the last one is still mechanically good with a healthy community, while the new one may attract crowds from both directions of the scale.
Look at the latest Tekken, all the fancy stuff they've done to improve it but it is still the same core game. Learning curve is what usually breaks it for me. Like, it's easier to learn the mechanics and a character in Tekken, Smash Bros, than in, say, Street Fighter.
Lowering the bar of entry is acceptable if it makes the game more fun/fluent (Dota vs Hots). Players who can frame read in SF will surely be able to do so in other games, thus gaining a competitive edge.
Personally, I like GG's and especially BlazBlue's for their stories, art-style and unique characters - yet - even in the modes where you learn your combos I wasn't able to execute most of the advanced moves (ref.: 4:48) aaaand the community is almost non-existent on PS4 (Blazblue, EU east).
The only fighting games I've played are smash & Fantasy Strike. In my IMO, Fantasy Strike is easy to get into but still has incredible depth.
I absolutely love fantasy strike and I usually play Tekken - one of the hardest fighting games to play. I've gotten my partner to play FS and she only used to ever know button mashing in fighting games, and now she's able to to put people into mixups, play footsies, be defensive, and know when it's appropriate to jump. Fantasy Strike does some amazing things and I think it's really a fighting game for everyone, no matter if you're a novice or a veteran. It's also impossible to forget how to play so you can still enjoy the fighting games you already are dedicated to while still being able to play competently in FS at any given time.
IDK if simplicity is my issue with fighting games. My issue tends to be in intuition. A lot of moves and combos in fighting games when their inputs are designed seem to only take the difficulty of the input vs its power. When I think of well implemented input, I want the input to cognitively map out in a way that makes sense.
Like, say a game has a punch button and a kick button, and in order to do a heavy version of both you hold punch and release and in order to do a medium you double tap. Then if you want to transform these further, the vertical direction you press before or after effects direction and left and right direction effects the level of aggression (effecting say, hit box range and recovery frames)
I could add further layers and this would contribute to complexity and tactics, but retain a level of intuitive flow for decision making for a player.
To some degree, I feel like if you were dedicated to this as a player, you could try remaping your controls in arbitrarily designed input fighting games on a per character basis (assuming you don't do tag battles) in order to artificially somewhat recreate something like this (sort of). This sort of shows that some of the complexity isn't really complexity but merely irritating counter intuition.
It's a good ramp for going into more complex fighting games. But there are still things in Fantasy Strike like command normals in a game with proximity grab that are very unintuitive. I'm kind of more interested in designing fighting games that make players want to get better or more competitive instead of giving up so easily.
I think non FG players could pick up Fantasy Strike. Understand it fairly quickly and have fun while thinking they are pretty good. But when they do try to move on they won't get that almost instant gratification of understanding and doing well. So they will go back or give up.
So is another baby step up from Fantasy Strike the answer? I think according to the method in this video that would be the conclusion. But when is constantly learning another fighting game too cumbersome? I personally gave up on anime fighters after learning and competing in 4 brand new titles within a year.
If we look at other genres we can see that players will learn complex mechanics, execution, and strategy. But the gratification is also there. I don't think we have that in fighting games yet.
As for someone who is an outsider to Fighting games, I agree. I have a longer spiel on this but I'll keep it short.
Two games I think Fighting games could learn from to improve accessibility without sacrificing complexity or lowering the skill Ceiling. Freespace 2 and Reciever
Freespace 2 because of how it measured out it's tutorials then threw the player in a few situations where they actually needed to use them in order for them to stick, and Reciever where the game used a help menu and an A.I to guide the player in how to use a complicated firearm to the point it becomes muscle memory.
I'm not saying carbon copy these, but I think it's something fighting game devs can take lessons from. I'm sure others can throw out more examples
Tardation Fair, but admittedly never true for me. (When talking about traditional fighting games)
What about things like Stylish mode in GG? Wouldn't that be the step up from Fantasy Strike? It would lower the execution barrier, so instead of having to learn inputs and combos, they can focus on the instant gratification of understanding the match. From there they can slowly learn to execute stuff once they get more comfortable with the game and want to learn more options.
Thank you for this video! I understand pretty well the purpose of Fantasy Strike. I am trying to do it myself, trying to get into fighting games considering I did never play any of them as a child. I know games like Smash Bros, that can be played as a party game, or Pokken, with mecanics that prevent you from being stuck in a combo, really help me a lot to understand the genre :)
Good grief the FGC elitists (or wannabe elitists) here...
I think there's quite an easy distinction to be made:
Is this something that a player can learn on his own just by firing up the game, going to training mode, and drill-and-killing the same input motion over and over? We want that time to go to zero as fast as possible. That's the skill floor. The "you must be able to perform X, Y, and Z or you can't play the game competitively."
For instance, SHFFLing and wavedashing in melee. As someone that tried getting the hang of those techniques but couldn't, there is nothing my opponent does that prevents me from doing those techniques--it's literally a matter of muscle memory. So to my opponent, whether or not I spent a thousand hours practicing those inputs, or was able to master them in two hours is completely irrelevant.
At the end of the day, it's ultimately the following question: is the player playing against his opponent, or the controls? Anyone who says there needs to be any amount of "fighting the controls" is the reason that fighting games are so niche and not bigger than they are.
" is the player playing against his opponent, or the controls? Anyone who
says there needs to be any amount of "fighting the controls" is the
reason that fighting games are so niche and not bigger than they are." This. Very much this. If a game's depth is heavily dependant on fighting the controls, then that's not depth. It's a crutch. An illusion. If a game isn't fun if the special move or super move inputs are easy, that's not a problem with input ease. It's the devs not making a good game.
"Is the player playing against his opponent, or the controls? Anyone who says there needs to be any amount of "fighting the controls" is the reason that fighting games are so niche and not bigger than they are."
This blatantly false. You know what game has terrible controls? League of legends. And presumably other MOBAs. And yet those games are popular as fuck.
Also, your melee arguments are flawed. SHFFLing, wavedashing, and other advanced tech are not required to play, have fun, or understand the game. They are only required if you're trying to play optimally, which *should* reward dedicated practice. Optimal play *should* be hard to execute. Watching pros do superhuman shit is core to the spectator experience for sports of any variety.
Now if you really want to criticize melee, bring up discoverability. Like, it's not obvious that any of the tech exists if you don't already know about it, so even if you want to practice, you don't know how. This is a legitimate flaw.
@@warlordsquerk5338 Most game's depth is partially dependent on physical skills. "Fighting the controls" may be frustrating to a beginner, but in most cases it ends up adding depth to the game, while also increasing the skill ceiling. The goal of development shouldn't be to remove all executional skill, but to design the game in a way that beginners don't perceive it as "fighting the controls". Executional barriers are only a problem of player perception, not a problem themselves (see physical sports). Saying they should always be removed and pretending a game's depth will be completely unaffected is naive.
Borp says hi.
@@AllUpOns What do you mean when it comes to "terrible controls" when referring to League of Legends. MOBAS, in general, have a whole lot less of "fighting controls." than fighting games who wear the crown for sure.
Funny, the portion about Fantasy Strike and this topic of accessibility makes me think a lot about this fighting game I'm playing right now. It's a fangame for an anime that was popular in Japan just earlier this year, so audience is already pretty large from the get go. And then the description of some of Fantasy Strike's mechanics reminded me of this particular game as well. ruclips.net/video/ptORAwAJN5c/видео.html I did a translation of the game's tutorial video for its surface level mechanics here ruclips.net/video/r6mZHoSBtNw/видео.html it's only 6 minutes long. It's a 4-button fighter where each button is clearly doing something different and there's not much information overload through each phase of being a new->knows mechanics->experienced->good player.
In this game, specials are executed by just direction + a button, and everyone has their own invulnerable special (like a Shoryuken). Specials are definitely more valuable than normals with how they have low minimum scaling, the obvious special properties like being projectiles or lunging attacks, combo extensions, etc. However, the limiter for these like Rising Thunder's cooldown is that there's a meter for using specials. You need to have your "Skill Gauge" filled to use a special, and you can stock up to 3 meters of this. This meter will not fill up normally while combo'ing, giving an added sense of balance.
There are no highs and lows, but blocking is the usual hold-back mechanic, so crossups are indeed a thing.
Normals here are two buttons A and B, but each of these 2 buttons are different. A could be short for "Auto-combo"; anyone could simply mash this button to perform very barebones combo with most characters, and ends with the "Blowback", which is a universal move for launchers/ground bounce/wall bounces like a variation of Marvel vs. Capcom 3's special button. B is the "Blowback" button and people could opt to use their B's earlier in the combo instead of following the Auto-combo, giving combo variety.
The Blowback is very powerful. Successful B recovers one Skill meter and 1 meter for the "Kemono gauge", which is a 5-bar gauge used for both Supers and Bursts. Successful B also launches/wall bounces/ground bounces the opponent, which means you can continue combo'ing after it, even infinite with it...
However, to balance it, there is an important mechanic that also seems to be kinda unique to this game: Counter, which is the direct opposition to Blowbacks. You can counter Blowbacks by inputting the opposite direction of the blowback: for example, to counter a Launch Blowback, you must hold down; to counter a wall bounce blowback you must hold forward; ground bounce blowback, hold up. *This all involves letting go of the Block direction,* which gives it the depth it needs by making both the attacker and defender think about what each other is doing; the attacker could get a potential reset if they know the defender is not blocking or continue his 'infinite' if he is, but if the defender decides right then he could stop or even turn around the momentum.
There's deep level mechanics to this game that also come from how each of its controls interact, which I won't get in to because that would make this comment longer than it already is.
I mainly played UMvC3, Blazblue, and Skullgirls back when I was still competing, and these are pretty damn deep games, especially Skullgirls, but I enjoy this game I'm playing right now very much and the Japanese community have players of different varying skillsets and it's easy for the good players and the new players to connect. I think it's an okay example of games that could fill the in-between.
It also has a bunch of fighting game shout outs in it. The character I main references a number of Doctor Doom's moves, for example.
(don't tell the Pokken community, but KemoFre Fight is what I wish Pokken would have been)
Kemono Friends > Fantasy Strike
For starters it's already complete and doesn't run on a pyramid scheme, that puts it lots of levels above FS.
god DAYUM those clips you linked are so Japan haha
I honestly can't believe this is what's become of anime. I remember in the 80s I watched Bubblegum Crisis and was introduced to cyberpunk. Project Ako had girls running up walls and the zaniest shit imaginable. Everything from noir, to comedy, scifi space operas and somehow even managed to put some cowboys in them long before Firefly ever tried the same, and then there is this. I don't, know the kind of person whose market for this is. I can't imagine how this kind of thing appeals, I mean I know there is to each their own but I can at least usually 'get it'. I can 'get' people even liking getting peed on before this even if I think its gross, it's warm and there's the whole sexual reveal thing and anticipation whatever. I can get wanting to hike up everest, I think it's stupid and you could die and the excitement of being at the top and hurray omg did you see that dead guy on the way up that was nuts ok lets head back down....yeah stupid, but I get it. I don't think this game is stupid. I don't think it's gross. I don't get how or why or who could play it with any sort of respect. Like, what are you a fan of about it? What the hell could make someone sit in a room and watch others play it, etc. Im really confused.
yea no, don't link that again.
Can I play Kemono Friends online?
Purchased fantasy strike last week. Totally agree with you. Hopefully this will open up the genre to many others. Great video
I really hope that the movement to keep the complexity and depth of fighting games don't turn to harassing people who literally can't play the game or can't enjoy the game without assistance options and things like that.
As always, great episode Gerald.
Love these, well made, thought provoking videos.
Anyone know any other channels like this one?
Game Makers Toolkit
Lethal league is a great example of a simple but deep fighting game too! I'd recommend it to everybody who wants to get the fun of a fighting game without all the complexity
tbh after the skill gap and tutorial videos i thought this was gonna just criticize accessibility for making things easier but boy was i wrong