Appreciate all the effort in printing the turbines. One thing I would consider a major flaw in the testing was the directing of the stream of air to what made the turbine spin the fastest. Sitting out in the actual wind, BOTH sides of the turbine will be getting hit by wind in the same direction. I think the design of the side turning INTO the wind would have a huge impact on efficiency. Doing it the way you did we couldn't get a realistic result. I'm not trying to trash your test by any means. I am genuinely curious to see how each turbine would respond with equal wind force hitting both sides. Maybe move the blower back more and center it? Even if it goes slow we can get an idea how it works as a whole.
I'm currently working on a wind tunnel design, along with a fan blade to attach to my rotary tool. This should give a better simulation, with laminar flow wind pushing against the respective turbines.
@@edeniaAJ For your wind tunnel, you could test it with a fog machine and a laser to verify that the flow is laminar indeed. If not, you could 3D print an extruded grid to create straight channels that force the air flow from the fan to move in straight lines.
I thought exactly the same. The hair blower is rediculous as windsource, the guy should get AT LEAST a bigger fan to blow from far and regular winds. So it remains rediculous and is for sure not a test! Appreciate his interest though, and he will become better soon in his methods.
I am considering a vertical axis wind turbine that looks exactly like a tree, I call it : e-tree, the trunk of the e-tree is brown, the spinning blades are green, attached to the trunk of the e-tree are features of : wifi/mobile network, light and power outlet, to charge a car for example
Not a very good test method as there was no air pressure on the advancing faces, if you selectively direct the air in the manner of your test you could get a power reading out of almost any shape, also changing the angle of the air source can influence the output as demonstrated in your test, for a fair test you would need an air source wider than the test subject to assert force on the advancing and trailing faces at the same time, you could maybe try building a small form wind tunnel, but it would (for a fair test) have to demonstrate laminar flow at the test distance, this could be achieved by the straw stack method, there are quite a few examples of this design of tunnel on youtube, thank you for the video anyway.
Very much enjoyed your video. I am a strong believer in wind power and plan on mocking up and measuring performance very much like what you have demonstrated.
Hey, I hope to be not patronizing but....lift turbines are called lift turbines since they derive power from the same effect airfoils undergo... well....lifting entire airplanes from the ground, and hardly the direction the air comes in at it. Or not at all. The reason the turbine Rob designed has a cone shape in it, is the air gets trapped in when it isn't guided down orr out somehow. Fairly suprising anyway to see how big the difference in voltages is. I'd love to see them put out voltage in real life conditions, since I'm working on a bike with airpower support. Considering implementing Robs designs of the Pelton turbine, asking youtube for other points of views and ideas brought me here! Grtz from (no suprise I guess) the Netherlands
You're welcome. If you're willing to partake? Asking about a bit on the internet and publishing my plans to fence for the open source nature of this project. I think it would be great if bikes would be assisted by wind, headwind especially ofcourse to reduce the amount of force put in by muscle power. 'E-free bikes' could be a thing i guess
if a turbine performs much better using a particular angle or cross section you can also shield the turbine from the outside wind using a directional plate in front of it that redirects the wind into the best angle and shields the remaining parts of the design from external turbulence etc... in a Pelton wheel this is of course necessary because they ALWAYS direct the flow only to one side... 3 cup wind anemometers are Pelton designs that use a triangular offset to assure rotation however there are still significant efficiency losses with that design...
Free wheel speed is a matter of pitch and airflow velocity. The next test should be to load them to best efficiency point, and see which one can actually generate the most power based on swept volume and airflow velocity. The different turbine designs will for sure, produce their maximum power at different speeds and torque.
when doing comparison test, it's better to put the blower at the same position corresponding to the circle center ( if the radius of the three types are the same). I felt the distance between blower opening and the edge of the turbine in second test is closer than that in the first one. third one (Pelton design) is the best without any question even I felt the distance of the blower open is far a little bit
Very good! However, one note: I would explain lift type devices as those that through their aerodynamical shape create a pressure differential which redirects an airflow around them because the higher pressure air strives to flow to the lower pressure region . And redirected airflow provokes a counter-reaction, which drives the turbine.
Nice tests. I remmeber mentioning the pelton design to Rob in a comment a few years ago, even giving a quick hstory of its orgins, i think in response to one of his hydro generator videos where he was demonstrating the dead weight of an urgrinsky water wheel. The pelton designs uses the opposite effect, not the dead weight of the water but the speed or "pulse" of if as they called it. I knew Rob would get a kick out of it, he's very receptive to new ideas and shares his as well and ecourages you to use them, but i never thought he'd incorporate it into a wind turbine. And the added effect of the drag, even superior then the urgrinsky turbine he actually introduced to us too, very cool to see his remixed design do so well. But not surprised, his focus changed to wind power generation over anything lately so its nice to see some real results.
Keep your turbines and make a proper test with the air hitting the all turbine soon, that test was 100% useless tbh. Hope to see more about wind turbine comparisons.
To be fair to the Ugrinsky, I believe it was actually designed to be a "Smoll water wheel," with only half submerged at a time. I haven't, yet, but I'd be curious to see what a Ugrinsky would do in a ducted enclosure. I shall now buy a 3D printer and start a RUclips channel!
Probably not much actually, I printed most of it so I think it was enough to get some nice results. I was surprised because it was the smallest of the 3!
Beautifully made models. But this way of testing can tell us little more than that each turbine actually works. Was the dynamo connected to any consumer at all? Just measuring the open-circuit voltage only tells us how fast this specific dynamo spins in just this specific setup. It doesn't tell us anything about how much power the apparatus might be able to extract from the air and deliver in terms of watt if running with an electrical load. That your source of wind should be closer to actual outdoor conditions has already been said. I might add that it should be somewhat defined and reproducible for a meaningful comparison of your different turbines. I suggest you wire up some circuit that draws power from your turbine and enables you to measure it in watt or milliwatt. Feeding the output to some adjustable resistor and reading an amperemeter in addition to the voltmeter may do. I'd be curious to watch that!
For the Ugrinsky design you had to blow more on one side than on the other? I am very surprised to see how the pelton design perform. Indeed, the three turbines had the same diameter, and I suppose that the voltage is proportional to the rotational speed which can't be greater than the tangential speed of the air. It would be interesting if you actually draw current of your generator, to compare the actual produced power. Thank you for your testing, I subscribed!
Your wind testing would be greatly improved by testing these designs using laminar wind flow rather than a blow drier which has already a vortex like output which creates many interfering attributes. To create laminar flow you need to feed the blower through a tube structure of many smaller tubes inside one larger tube of about 6 to 12 inches in length.. This will produce a laminar wind flow that is mush closer to natural wind blowing. This can also be incorporated into the turbine design with a bit of engineering thought. Of course natural wind is already much more laminar so it can be directed into the turbine with mush less manipulation and added drag. If you want a reference for laminar flow devices study how they made the famous fountains at the Belagio Casino in Las Vegas. these can shoot long columns of laminar water flow using simple nozzles as I have described. Cheers and thanks for the work!
To the previous comment, by JVielo, is of course, 100% correct so after making the source into a laminar flow then you can make a rectangular horn with deflector plates that simulate an even delivery across the entire cross section of the turbine being tested. So in short build a small wind tunnel to do lab testing...
The test is stupid and completely wrong. You need a uniform flow and not a directed one. Measuring the voltage is irrelevant too because it is just a function of the speed of rotation. You have to measure POWER in a uniform flow field
nice try but sadly your test is just too flawed. The weight is of course different as those designes had different bases, different sizes, different stability. And any power-reading is also sadly not comparable as the airstream is far too small and irregular. Windturbines operate in near uniform wind - getting blasted with air that has the same general velocity everywhere. Your test only has air coming from one specific spot at one specific angle, no pressure on the other side, and that from a not controlled outlet.
not the original commentor, but a box fan blowing across the test blades would be a good test. I would hope that you can clear out a space behind the blade as well so there's no backpressure from obstacles behind the test item@@edeniaAJ . Really good effort at a scientific approach, love the citizen science here.
@@edeniaAJA leafblower from 2m away aimed at the center. With the current test a flat bladed impeller (as found in some pumps) would even perform well.
1. Make a wind tunnel that gives even air speed across the cross section, and ensures the whole turbine is subjected to the same wind. TBH your test attempt was worthless because your wind was cr*p!. You need a bigger more energetic fan as the air source to give representative wind velocities for the tests. 2. With the Ugrinsky, the design is optimised when there is a disk top and bottom spaced at about 1.5 diameters. This has important constraining effect on air flow and hence efficiency. I would imagine the others would be similar. So make then all 1.5 dia high, with disks either end. Good luck beating the Ugrinsky. 3. Free-wheeling RPM and Volts are useless measures without having some load on the turbines. Tip speed to wind speed ratios are informative. Measure the RPM at varying loads to find where the wind speed to load curve is optimised. A copper disk with a magnet (pushing on a spring balance) closer or farther away from the disk will give you a 'dynamometer' setup with load data output. Keep up the interesting work!
I'm currently working on a wind tunnel design, inspired by some instructables stuff. I think I will need to print a fan blade and attach it to my rotary tool, as I can't find a suitable OTS fan online.
Appreciate all the effort in printing the turbines. One thing I would consider a major flaw in the testing was the directing of the stream of air to what made the turbine spin the fastest. Sitting out in the actual wind, BOTH sides of the turbine will be getting hit by wind in the same direction. I think the design of the side turning INTO the wind would have a huge impact on efficiency. Doing it the way you did we couldn't get a realistic result. I'm not trying to trash your test by any means. I am genuinely curious to see how each turbine would respond with equal wind force hitting both sides. Maybe move the blower back more and center it? Even if it goes slow we can get an idea how it works as a whole.
I'm currently working on a wind tunnel design, along with a fan blade to attach to my rotary tool. This should give a better simulation, with laminar flow wind pushing against the respective turbines.
@@edeniaAJ For your wind tunnel, you could test it with a fog machine and a laser to verify that the flow is laminar indeed. If not, you could 3D print an extruded grid to create straight channels that force the air flow from the fan to move in straight lines.
I thought exactly the same. The hair blower is rediculous as windsource, the guy should get AT LEAST a bigger fan to blow from far and regular winds. So it remains rediculous and is for sure not a test! Appreciate his interest though, and he will become better soon in his methods.
@hellothisismax tests VAWTs in a wind tunnel! You might find his channel interesting. He even does user submissions which I find pretty entertaining.
I am considering a vertical axis wind turbine that looks exactly like a tree, I call it : e-tree,
the trunk of the e-tree is brown, the spinning blades are green,
attached to the trunk of the e-tree are features of : wifi/mobile network, light and power outlet, to charge a car for example
Hey! nice video! you mind if I test these in my wind tunnel? it kinda my thing!
Cool idea, I'm designing and printing my own wind tunnel myself!
@@edeniaAJ that's amazing!
Not a very good test method as there was no air pressure on the advancing faces, if you selectively direct the air in the manner of your test you could get a power reading out of almost any shape, also changing the angle of the air source can influence the output as demonstrated in your test, for a fair test you would need an air source wider than the test subject to assert force on the advancing and trailing faces at the same time, you could maybe try building a small form wind tunnel, but it would (for a fair test) have to demonstrate laminar flow at the test distance, this could be achieved by the straw stack method, there are quite a few examples of this design of tunnel on youtube, thank you for the video anyway.
yes totally. 100% this. 👍
You're testing them wrong, wind does not come from one point or direction!!
I agree. They need to be tested in a laminar airflow stream, to simulate blowing wind.
I think @hellothisismax does a great job with these. I bet he'd be willing to test these designs
We do turbine wind tunnel testing on my channel, I would be happy to do a collabo. Thanks for sending me this @sman27
Link to the cited paper: www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/15/7/2478
Turbines:
Savonius - www.thingiverse.com/thing:5463425/files
Ugrinsky - www.thingiverse.com/thing:2238394
Pelton - www.thingiverse.com/thing:6141589/files
that pelton design is pretty cool
Very much enjoyed your video. I am a strong believer in wind power and plan on mocking up and measuring performance very much like what you have demonstrated.
Wow that pelton turbine is super effective...thanks for posting
Thanks for the feedback, will definitely be doing more stuff with wind turbines soon!
You have no idea
Great work, hope you shared with Robert as well, I will
Outstanding overview with comparisons! Great channel, too!
Thanks for the nice comments :)
Hey, I hope to be not patronizing but....lift turbines are called lift turbines since they derive power from the same effect airfoils undergo... well....lifting entire airplanes from the ground, and hardly the direction the air comes in at it. Or not at all.
The reason the turbine Rob designed has a cone shape in it, is the air gets trapped in when it isn't guided down orr out somehow.
Fairly suprising anyway to see how big the difference in voltages is. I'd love to see them put out voltage in real life conditions, since I'm working on a bike with airpower support. Considering implementing Robs designs of the Pelton turbine, asking youtube for other points of views and ideas brought me here!
Grtz from (no suprise I guess) the Netherlands
Thanks!
You're welcome. If you're willing to partake? Asking about a bit on the internet and publishing my plans to fence for the open source nature of this project. I think it would be great if bikes would be assisted by wind, headwind especially ofcourse to reduce the amount of force put in by muscle power. 'E-free bikes' could be a thing i guess
if a turbine performs much better using a particular angle or cross section you can also shield the turbine from the outside wind using a directional plate in front of it that redirects the wind into the best angle and shields the remaining parts of the design from external turbulence etc... in a Pelton wheel this is of course necessary because they ALWAYS direct the flow only to one side... 3 cup wind anemometers are Pelton designs that use a triangular offset to assure rotation however there are still significant efficiency losses with that design...
Will take note of this
Free wheel speed is a matter of pitch and airflow velocity. The next test should be to load them to best efficiency point, and see which one can actually generate the most power based on swept volume and airflow velocity. The different turbine designs will for sure, produce their maximum power at different speeds and torque.
when doing comparison test, it's better to put the blower at the same position corresponding to the circle center ( if the radius of the three types are the same).
I felt the distance between blower opening and the edge of the turbine in second test is closer than that in the first one.
third one (Pelton design) is the best without any question even I felt the distance of the blower open is far a little bit
Very good! However, one note: I would explain lift type devices as those that through their aerodynamical shape create a pressure differential which redirects an airflow around them because the higher pressure air strives to flow to the lower pressure region . And redirected airflow provokes a counter-reaction, which drives the turbine.
Nice tests. I remmeber mentioning the pelton design to Rob in a comment a few years ago, even giving a quick hstory of its orgins, i think in response to one of his hydro generator videos where he was demonstrating the dead weight of an urgrinsky water wheel. The pelton designs uses the opposite effect, not the dead weight of the water but the speed or "pulse" of if as they called it. I knew Rob would get a kick out of it, he's very receptive to new ideas and shares his as well and ecourages you to use them, but i never thought he'd incorporate it into a wind turbine. And the added effect of the drag, even superior then the urgrinsky turbine he actually introduced to us too, very cool to see his remixed design do so well. But not surprised, his focus changed to wind power generation over anything lately so its nice to see some real results.
Thanks! I'm working hard on a follow up to this: A 3d printed wind tunnel for a more accurate test!
You need a wind tunnel and turbines that are the same weight for comparison sake.
Keep your turbines and make a proper test with the air hitting the all turbine soon, that test was 100% useless tbh. Hope to see more about wind turbine comparisons.
To be fair to the Ugrinsky, I believe it was actually designed to be a "Smoll water wheel," with only half submerged at a time.
I haven't, yet, but I'd be curious to see what a Ugrinsky would do in a ducted enclosure.
I shall now buy a 3D printer and start a RUclips channel!
Nice work! Do you think a full print of the pelton would make any difference? I was geeked out to see you get over 20v with it.
Probably not much actually, I printed most of it so I think it was enough to get some nice results. I was surprised because it was the smallest of the 3!
Beautifully made models. But this way of testing can tell us little more than that each turbine actually works. Was the dynamo connected to any consumer at all? Just measuring the open-circuit voltage only tells us how fast this specific dynamo spins in just this specific setup. It doesn't tell us anything about how much power the apparatus might be able to extract from the air and deliver in terms of watt if running with an electrical load.
That your source of wind should be closer to actual outdoor conditions has already been said. I might add that it should be somewhat defined and reproducible for a meaningful comparison of your different turbines.
I suggest you wire up some circuit that draws power from your turbine and enables you to measure it in watt or milliwatt. Feeding the output to some adjustable resistor and reading an amperemeter in addition to the voltmeter may do. I'd be curious to watch that!
I will take all this into consideration for my next episode!
For the Ugrinsky design you had to blow more on one side than on the other? I am very surprised to see how the pelton design perform. Indeed, the three turbines had the same diameter, and I suppose that the voltage is proportional to the rotational speed which can't be greater than the tangential speed of the air. It would be interesting if you actually draw current of your generator, to compare the actual produced power. Thank you for your testing, I subscribed!
Your wind testing would be greatly improved by testing these designs using laminar wind flow rather than a blow drier which has already a vortex like output which creates many interfering attributes. To create laminar flow you need to feed the blower through a tube structure of many smaller tubes inside one larger tube of about 6 to 12 inches in length.. This will produce a laminar wind flow that is mush closer to natural wind blowing. This can also be incorporated into the turbine design with a bit of engineering thought. Of course natural wind is already much more laminar so it can be directed into the turbine with mush less manipulation and added drag. If you want a reference for laminar flow devices study how they made the famous fountains at the Belagio Casino in Las Vegas. these can shoot long columns of laminar water flow using simple nozzles as I have described. Cheers and thanks for the work!
Thanks! I'm currently working on a wind tunnel as we speak!
To the previous comment, by JVielo, is of course, 100% correct so after making the source into a laminar flow then you can make a rectangular horn with deflector plates that simulate an even delivery across the entire cross section of the turbine being tested. So in short build a small wind tunnel to do lab testing...
The test is stupid and completely wrong. You need a uniform flow and not a directed one. Measuring the voltage is irrelevant too because it is just a function of the speed of rotation. You have to measure POWER in a uniform flow field
Thank you!
Obviously the blowwer distance not same for the tests.
how about the current... fix a laad on in ..so we can see what it does in terms of power..
I will keep this in consideration for future videos
That’s not a good test. Put the flow to middle
A very unscientific test. The idea is good but the individual tests need to be under exactly identical conditions for the test to be valid.
nice try but sadly your test is just too flawed.
The weight is of course different as those designes had different bases, different sizes, different stability. And any power-reading is also sadly not comparable as the airstream is far too small and irregular. Windturbines operate in near uniform wind - getting blasted with air that has the same general velocity everywhere. Your test only has air coming from one specific spot at one specific angle, no pressure on the other side, and that from a not controlled outlet.
Your test is MASSIVELY flawed. A hair drier ? Concentrated air flow on one side, does not account for drag on the other side of the blades.
So what do you propose?
not the original commentor, but a box fan blowing across the test blades would be a good test. I would hope that you can clear out a space behind the blade as well so there's no backpressure from obstacles behind the test item@@edeniaAJ .
Really good effort at a scientific approach, love the citizen science here.
A large fan would give you a more real world result.@@edeniaAJ
@@edeniaAJA leafblower from 2m away aimed at the center. With the current test a flat bladed impeller (as found in some pumps) would even perform well.
1. Make a wind tunnel that gives even air speed across the cross section, and ensures the whole turbine is subjected to the same wind. TBH your test attempt was worthless because your wind was cr*p!. You need a bigger more energetic fan as the air source to give representative wind velocities for the tests.
2. With the Ugrinsky, the design is optimised when there is a disk top and bottom spaced at about 1.5 diameters. This has important constraining effect on air flow and hence efficiency. I would imagine the others would be similar. So make then all 1.5 dia high, with disks either end. Good luck beating the Ugrinsky.
3. Free-wheeling RPM and Volts are useless measures without having some load on the turbines. Tip speed to wind speed ratios are informative. Measure the RPM at varying loads to find where the wind speed to load curve is optimised. A copper disk with a magnet (pushing on a spring balance) closer or farther away from the disk will give you a 'dynamometer' setup with load data output.
Keep up the interesting work!
I'm currently working on a wind tunnel design, inspired by some instructables stuff. I think I will need to print a fan blade and attach it to my rotary tool, as I can't find a suitable OTS fan online.
People have sad I'm full of hot air blowing. 😮😅
Harry Potter 😂😂😂😂😂
☑️✨☺️
Promo*SM
Thank you for the effort pls make a turbine that can make 126 watts per hours and you will be a superstar
"that can make 126 watts per hours"
And do you want those watts in green or apples?