twisted crank. tossin the flywheel off. got me on this one for sure. agreed tho 10 hours wtf i wonder how far out of round the hole is ??? you had no smoke for bein stuck rings...
I think the compression test told the story. The Briggs without it's CR installed, should have been much higher than 80 pounds. The scrub cadet, with it's CR installed and working, was correct at about 60 pounds.
You’re awesome! I love seeing you stumped because I know you’re not going to stop until you find out what the issues are. I’m going to learn… You care about us grass 🐀’s in Georgia.
had a bad coil spin a fly wheel and keep sheering keys before, you'd think they'd either spark or not spark but sometimes when they go bad they go off-time a bit
Lawn mower shops, its fun to try to run it as a flat rate shop, he is spending all this time on one project, i have been here several times chasing strange no start issues, or machine function issues, sometimes not enough hours in the day
I cant believe that B&S would make a Clone of the qualiity Honda motor, They obviously couldn't get that right ever. So bad piston rings, they paid that quickly, PR is working hard for the mistake of the Bean Counter's!
I was blown away when he said he’s never done a cylinder leak down test before. If I get an engine I can’t diagnose quickly with the usual test, I do a cylinder leak down test. It only takes a few minutes, literally, and you know if one or both valves are leaking, if it’s losing compression past the rings, if it’s a blown head gasket, etc. it would’ve saved him a lot of time. That leak down tester he used from Harbor Freight is garbage. They sell one now made by Maddox that works great. Another thing I noticed. When you do a cylinder leak down test, you have everything connected to the cylinder from the start. You do not pressurize the tester and then connect it to the cylinder hose. Lol. You use the leak down tester to find exact top dead center, once there, you do have to clamp the engine into place. If it’s at exact top dead center it will stay there even after you put pressure into the cylinder.
Not many channels will do what Taryl does. Most channels wouldn't upload themselves struggling but thats part of yhe process and an invaluable step in diagnosis. This channel is a treasure ❤
Taryl's a Super Man! I can't believe how many times he pulled that recoil and never was out of breath or even slowed down! He might be on the thin side, but I'm guessing he's wiry as heck and all muscle! I might have been like that in my 30's and 40's and maybe even into my early 50's before I ruptured a disc, but now at 76 that much pulling would have pretty much have finished me for any kind of strenuous work for the day. ;-)
Yeah I noticed that too pulling like that would throw you back out if you weren't warmed up at my age I'm 62... And I think he did it to show that Briggs & Stratton it's just another one of these companies that's really chins and out and putting plastic f****** camshaft ....
This year I refurbished a 1948 Whizzer-you know what they are-I couldn't get the engine to run right-good spark, fuel, etc. Finally I pulled the cylinder off, and found that the rings were completely worn out-put in new rings, and it runs like a champ-it had me stumped as well-thanks, Taryl and crew!
I'm still stumped why the thing had 80 lbs. compression with stuck rings. Great video Taryl. Thanks! I'd have thought that officer wasn't a rookie with how he handled that arrest. Great job Officer Faryl!
Because the leak was not a constant and sometimes the rings even sealed which is why it would run occasionally. This is a guess until someone has a better answer. Excellent work !!!
The way the compression tester works is that it goes up to the maximum compression achieved but doesn’t go down again until you push the release pressure button. The leak down tester compares pressure in the cylinder on a steady state basis versus the pressure being introduced using an air line. With perfect a no leak down cylinder if Taryl introduced air at 60 lbs(it just bleeds air in) the cylinder would show 60 lbs also. However there is always some leak down past the rings in any engine. The problem is that there was WAY too much.
@@jasoncook5307 Compression rings are supposed to seal the combustion chamber from the crankcase. Oil control rings regulate how much oil is on the cylinder walls. I highly doubt any engine manual would say oil control rings create compression.
You know Daryl, I was an green aircraft mechanic many, many, years ago. I used a differential air compression tester, not knowing how it worked, but only once did I find a cylinder not hold pressure, because it had a hole in the piston. I keep learning more and more as I watch these video’s. Keep up the good work.
Thanks guys! I had a great time helping solve crimes. See you next time. PS the Dunkman's donuts were great but I'm still waiting for that steak dinner.
You're getting better all the time. I can't believe how far your production value has come and I love that you have a way for your business to not only survive, but thrive. God bless you brother.
Wow..thnks for takng the time to figure this 1 out. As a homeowner who doesn't have much time to figure these our it nice to see you take the time to trbleshoot rather than charge, replace, or junk the whole show. I knw one guy who wantd a tune up for his toro, it cost him as much as a new rather than just doin most himself
Thank you for sharing that problem, & the paths you took trying to figure out the real problem. That is for sure one of those hard learned most remembered lessons! Briggs quality tanked years ago, & they are barely running on reputation at this point. How do they pay your time on something like this?
Just like , stihl , husksvarna , echo and toro , ford , Chevy , GE , the list goes all the way down the line , the leaders in charge ned to fix these problems or be held accountable
That certainly helped me add to my things to look at, had a Briggs, their Vanguard line, on a Cyclone rake come into the shop. Needed a carb and coil initially to just try and get it running. Mouse chewed coil wire jacket and I figured coil was shorting out through the hole in the jacket to the metal covers or head. Carb was gummed up and pitted. Get that replaced and still wouldn’t start. Found this engine to have no compression. Customer opted to not fix or repower it. Appreciate these videos as they help me better myself and skills as some of these things are not covered in trainings offered by the manufacturers.
I had this same issue on an old 18hp opposed twin for the whole season last year. Every time I would go to start it, I'd have to fight it again. Starter fluid and jump starting, etc.etc.. and nothing would ever work until randomly-- it would just start for no apparent reason; drove me nuts because I'm usually good at fixing this stuff. But it ran strong I could mow with it non-stop.. but after I parked it, I would have to fight it all over again the next time. Well finally one day when I couldn't start it: it was bad enough that it was blowing pressure out of the oil fill cap.. literally spraying oil out of the cap when I took it off. So I knew that it had stuck rings after that and had really bad blowby.. Once I took it all apart, I realized that it had a good amount of grass secretly hiding under the covers when I had already cleaned it at the start of the season-- so it must have been over heating too. It's on the healing bench at the moment; I'll get to it eventually
Great video Taryl. Just about everything you need to know in order to troubleshoot and repair a small engine. These companies really need to STOP outsourcing their builds to China. It's real Grade 'A' Crapola!
Stuck rings is the last thing I would have thought of. I really like using a leak down tester. It doesn't take that much more effort to use over a compression tester and it provides a lot more information. The leak down tester will tell you about leaking intake or exhaust valves, holed pistons and blown head gaskets all in one test.
Agreed. But it sucks that Taryl had to resort to a leak-down test on a practically new engine. So much junk on the market from previously solid name brands. This video's got me thinking I should rebuild an old engine in my scrap pile. All of the parts are such higher quality.
I'm at 32:00. I think you have low compression. With the compression release on it, you will get 60 PSI, but without it I would expect higher compression, more than 100. Wouldn't you think? I bet if you took the compression relief off the predator and checked it like you did the Briggs it would be much higher. Just my guess at this point. Finished video. Stuck rings probably a quality control problem, and obviously not something you would expect on a new engine! I bet the machining on the ring grooves was out of spec, too tight. To clarify what I said above, the compression release will function only at low RPM (ie: while starting) and keep the compression only at 60 PSI, but as soon as it fires and the RPM climbs the compression release should stop functioning and the compression should quickly increase to max compression which I would expect more like 100+ PSI, but that may vary with the engine. I'd be really interested if you did a follow up and checked the compression on that predator without the compression release. Interesting video, thanks for posting.
Howdy Cuz! I just got back home and had a chance to watch the whole video. Excellent job for not giving up, one of your best vids yet. I had a similar thing happen several years ago and once I used a cylinder leak down tester, I found the problem. Those things are great at telling where the air is leaking - if you hear air coming out of the carbitrator it's the intake valve, mufkin it's the exhaust valve, oil fill hole it's the rings and if the head gasket is leaking externally you can spray soapy water around the gasket area and look for bubbles. In any case you now have something to help find the problem. I sure had fun visiting with you guys and being part of Lawn Mower Detectives. You guys are the best!!!
Great job sticking with it thank you for all your sharing of knowledge. Really didn’t think you’d get 80lbs with stuck rings I guess the leak down test was worth it. Ed
Holy buckets !!!Good video . I can't tell you how many times I've been stumped like that🤯. had quite a few CT70s do that same thing rings sticking then im pounding my head against the wall (not to Alice in chains 😆) before i Figure out whats going on
Good fix Taryl. I would still change the fuel cap because when it did run it would die after a few minutes. Also I had a briggs riding lawn mower that had a bad compression release, Would start and locked up the starter. Briggs said the cam was back ordered for about six months. I bought an aftermarket cam and held my breath that it would not fail. So far it is still good. Thanks for a great video.
I totally agree , enjoyed it while eating breakfast. Taryl can figure it out . My shoulder cringed when I watch how many times you had to pull that rope “ it’s not starting” said in * high pitched voice . (Hubby always cracks up when Taryl talks to himself in this way) we love your show Taryl LOL Had to pause it so I wouldn’t choke while laughing at the lawn mower detectives skit too !
I felt your frustration throughout the video. I still don't understand how you can get good compression readings and have stuck rings... I don't think I would have found that problem! It's true to life, things don't always go as expected when you're troubleshooting.-- thanks for the great work!!!
I would not have thought of stuck rings. My son would have lol but Taryl you are still the go to guy. Thanks for the video and all the great info. There's your dinner wooooooo
Leak down testing has saved me time and helps to quickly identify or rule out problems. I have a HF leak down tester, but a better one than Taryl used. The better ones give you a direct pressure loss reading and you can calculated % loss.. About $85 at HF. I highly recommend you get a leak down tester that allows you to calculate the % loss. Helpful video in many areas.
I rebuilt my dads Honda GSV190 powered Honda lawnmower which I filled up with semi synthetic oil,it has done only 5 hours of work but it will start getting a workout tomorrow since it's late spring in my area here in Australia, the rain & heat has made the grass grow like crazy. That stuck ring issue is what sort of happened to the Intek engine on my grandfathers John Deere lawn tractor which my uncle gave him,he didn't change the oil & he kept on cranking & cranking the engine until he burned out the starter motor. Even the local lawnmower mechanic in town thought that a broken compression release on the camshaft was a cause of the starter motor problem until he pulled the cover off the engine. It still had compression albeit a scored cylinder & my grandfather hasn't really wanted to talk to me ever since because I unbolted the engine & he thought that I was wrong about things,I always never have a habit of stuffing things up like they did. When my uncle got remarried 2 weekends ago he didn't want to talk to me at the wedding either,I think that it was because I got a different McDonagh whose wasn't a Green one of whose Mahers whose a Gray !
I’ve been saying the same about Briggs going down hill, I know the Chinese Powermore engines are mainly on MTD stuff but I’ve always liked the ones on the snow blowers. The ones on the mowers seem fine too, I think They’re made by Zongshen and I believe they’re one of the better Chinese manufacturers probably the same ones that make Predator motors. Parts can be pricey though
@@evanknight3629 no experience with the little pit bike engines but I've got a Chinese dual sport(zongshen 230cc Honda ch clone engine) and it's at least survived 20,000 miles so far and still running well from what I can tell, so regardless they seem to be worth the money 1600 for a new motorcycle I've got my moneys worth even if it blows up tomorrow
Fascinating video Taryl Fixes all! This is a total 'back to formula' video! You were very calm! *high pitched voice. 'Lawn mower detectives!'.. Henceforth, I hereby nominate, this day, November 12 National Grass Rats day! Happy 4 you!
I kept thinking a broken valve stem valve - but you said it would run occasionally. I did notice that there was no vent on the gas cap. But didn't know if that would cause an issue. Now I wonder if that caused an increase in cylinder pressure and cooked the rings? Doubt it - no cylinder wall damage mentioned. Good work man.
Thank you for sharing this video. I have a TORO Time cutter with the 2P77F v Twin motor. this is an older zero turn that has just quit o me. In my "Detective" diagnosing, I ended up doing a compression test. One cylinder has 150pi, the other has 60psi, obviously, not right. I thought it was a valve, so I lapped the one with low compression. If I crank the engine for about 3 min, it will eventually start, some times. Just like yours. I have adjusted the valves, still not running. So I was thinking it was the Compression Relief, or the CAM, but that does not make sense since the valves were functioning. The one cylinder also is dry and is not getting gas on start up. IF I get it running, it runs like it is on 1.5 cylinders, Then I thaought it must be the rings, bt since it has compression and the compression does not drop, I rued it out. But now that you did a leak down test, I bet that if I did the test on mine, I would have the same results as your. So, off I go to pull the motor and check the rings on the one cylinder.
I have a Poulan Pro PR621 snow blower, it came with an STB 208cc engine. I bought it around 2009, and a couple years ago the engine stopped starting, just about like this one. Now that was after quite a few years. The blower was still in pretty good condition and I had just replaced the paddles and some other stuff. So I bought a Predator 212 for $99 (before the massive inflation). I retrofitted the side cover, carb, muffler, pull, etc. from the STB so I could keep the blowers cover and controls and all that, and for example the top oil dipstick. After looking at the engines, they are both the Honda clones just like these. I could tell they probably were manufactuered in the same plants (maybe not), even the way the laser etching of the serial was very similar but obviously different between 10 years. I didn't check if the cams were identical, BUT the side cover fit without any modification so at least the bearing IDs were the same. Was a fun little project.
An old car tech showed me a spark plug lower he welded on to a air nipple. I did the same, always works! Just listen and see where the air is leaking out when you pressurize the cylinder. You don't need the vise grips on a car engine, but you will on a mower/small engine. That guy showed me that in 1982.
It's not like China isn't capable of producing high quality steel. They are very capable. Briggs isn't REQUIRING them to do it. They certainly could but they don't care.
I enjoyed this episode. You covered alot of diagnostic scenarios, good stuff for us amateurs. Thanks Taryl and I also enjoyed seeing my favorite character Jackyl, he is the funniest man in show business
The compression was low, he removed the compression release but compared it against a motor that had the compression release installed. Without a compression release it should have been over 100 psi easy and he should have felt difficulty in pulling the engine over. The whole, "pulling this engine over is easy, I don't know why they would even need a compression release" should have made him suspect compression issues.
When you had that exhaust off, the sound it made was very strange. I figured something was up with the cylinder. And I hardly never use compression tester on 4-strokes, that compression release throws off the readings, and can very. Leak down testers saves alot of time and helps me narrow down where to start looking. I suggest a OTC leak down tester. I had good luck with mine. Great video Taryl
That’s really common. All these minibikes you see at Walmart or tractor supply have plastic cams in them. It doesn’t cause a quality problem. Had a few bikes with Chinese engines with the same plastic cam for over 10 years and still run fine. They’re not designed to overspin past 4,500 rpm’s.
Briggs & Stratton started using plastic cams about 30 years ago, actually probably a little longer than that on the 3.5 Classic L heads. They aren't normally a problem
It's usually a plastic gear that fails before the cam lobes, and that failure is usually from some other original cause. A typical scenerio for B&S engines is fuel from a failing carburetor flows into the crankcase, diluting the oil and raising the level. Somewhat later the engine breaks a timing gear, perhaps after running great for its last few seconds. Did it fail from overspeed, the long term fuel soak weakening the plastic gear, or the high oil level putting too much load on the valve system?
A buddy of mine was telling me the other day that BMW has or is working on this thing were instead of having a throttle cable or even throttle by wire they are going further now,they will be moving the camshaft back and forth (inside the engine!!!) to lower the idle,lol,lets forgo the 10 dollar throttle cable and do something ridiculous and complex,cars are getting so insane and expensive pretty soon all you'll be seeing are old cars on the road. I realize this video is about mowers but everyone is being affected by these crazy times we are living in,Ive heard of the industrial revolution but this is ridiculous,lol
@@dntlss BMW has had throttle-by-wire for a quarter century. The 1998-era M52tu engine was a transition. It had a throttle cable going to the throttle body, where it moved a throttle position sensor. The engine computer read that position, and moved a motorized throttle plate that was immediately adjacent. That allowed using the new throttle-by-wire engine into vehicles designed around a throttle cable. (There was actually a mechanical throttle shaft between the two. But it was a backup in case of a failure, using an incomplete coupling. The computer was normally the only source of throttle plate movement, but the mechanical linkage could partially open the throttle plate if the motor failed.) The next generation M54 engine used a very similar intake manifold and throttle body, but with the throttle position sensor half removed. That engine could only be used with an electronic throttle pedal. The recent engines control the intake charge entirely by controlling the intake valve opening, part of the variable valve timing. Initially that was paired with a traditional throttle body that was largely redundant, but later the throttle body was removed.
I know because you can get them at harbor freight everybody used to love them because they were only $100 but now there like $160 everybody builds them 212cc engines up to 20hp for minibikes
@@seanmckay3392 Yep! Man you show is funny as monkey with a beanie! Haven't laughed so hard since 'Married with Children'! Kept it up! Better than most shows on Network TTTTVVVV!😜😄
I can see frozen rings after 10 hrs of run time. I've had that problem in the past with valves. With these modern cheap engines, their design is sensitive to burning stale gas. So the customer runs for a few hrs one year, puts up for the winter, comes out in the spring and starts up, runs with stale gas and the varnish, while the engine is running and hot coats the valve stems (in my case) which freeze up after the engine cools back down and the engine wont start the next time (or any time after that until you take it apart and clean the valve stems up). In your case, I suspect the varnish, for whatever reason, migrated to the cylinder walls and got picked up by the rings which froze when the engine cooled back down. It would have been interesting to see if you could free up the stuck rings in your video - my guess is that you could have. Always run the engine out of gas - let it just sit there and idle if that's what it takes - a dry fuel tank over the winter time and your rig will start and run reliably the next year.
I'm 31 minutes in to this thing. This is a little frustrating. I didn't see him put the B&S cam back together with decompression in the machine when he was testing the compression. so 80 psi is very low if there is no decompression on the cam, 80 is way too low to run. Should have closer to 150 psi. I bet the top end is toast from lack of lubrication. Just a prediction. UPDATE: just finished it. So it was the top end, stuck rings. I was close. I love he brought out the leak down tester. That is the 4th or 5th item we use when something like this happens at the shop. We usually start with carb (shot of starter fluid), spark plug (does it spark, is it wet), exhaust (air coming out?), compression test (60-80psi for hand start engine), leak down test if all tests come back good. Glad you got it running! Very informative as always.
I bought a new B&S arbor for a 1970's Simplicity mower deck a year ago, and it came with the shaft having a thick coating of hard paint. I had to use paint remover and a few hours of labor to strip it off. It's a darned shame thing have gone this south with B&S - engine failure after 10 hours. Nice to see Ronnie Jerkenstein guest star.
I was gonna say ignition after everything hung you talked about. Here last winter I installed a msd coil on my 5.0 mustang that I bought just to complement the 6al2 box on it, and just for insurance off having a new coil on it. Was on there for about 3-4 months and I noticed the car having starting issues, really long cranks, done random misfires. Well one day when dropping my son off at school, it just died and would not fire back up. Hitched a ride to work, where I had my stock ford coil and brought it home with me. Went back to the school and car till was a crank no start, plugged the old Ford coil back in and it fired right up. The car has been running way better than before, no more random misses and long cranks. It just slowly started messing up. Now I’ve learned that the new msd stuff is junk these days, heck even the old 6al2 box has taken a crap. But the coil seemed to ohm out ok, 1.2 on the primary and 3.3k on the secondary? Kinda seems like what your dealing with here.
I love that if something stumps you you don't give up. You always figure out what it is. And that's what I like to do makes you feel good when you figure it out. Good job Taryl👍👍👍👍
Wow.. that was a doosey of a problem Taryl. Great troubleshooting tutorial though! Thanx for taking us along for the ride to learn how to check everything! 👍
Amazing is all I can say. B&S probably makes double on those foreign parts so that they can pay those warranty claims as quickly as they do. Like you Ive seen plenty of stuck rings especially on two strokes, but very few on 4 strokes that had oil in them. Good Job Taryl.
AgraFab leaf vacuum suggestion - I've had a couple and if you run it too long and fill the cart, the chute can clog up and take quite a bit of time to restore air flow. I made a view window. I cut an opening on the top next to the chute and covered it with a plastic plate. Noe I can see when the cart is about full and empty it before the chute clogs.
I wonder if the ringlands on the piston were machined too thin. Enough room for the rings to move initially, but even a slight bit of sludge from normal operation caused them to stick. Adequate clearance might have accommodated the little bit of sludge. That's my theory.
I am thinking the same thing. A machining problem from the factory, and the most tiny amount of 'varnish' or sludge forming in the ring land caused them to stick real quick. It's totally normal to have a little bit of varnish form on any engine, new or old, but when the factory screws up and doesn't provide correct clearance, BOOM !!! It's junk.
I'm thinking something in the fuel, some oil, additives, contaminates, old fuel, etc. sometimes additives can be very bad if the tolerances are tight and they run lean for emissions cruft.
Another terrific vid Taryl! I've been trying get a Krohler K-141 to run without success. It used to run fine but then after a long day's work it just gave up. I've been convinced it was from lack of spark so have tried two coils one of which was a brand new genuine Krohler part. Still no joy. I had experts look at the magnets in the flywheel but still no go. But with this experience of yours perhaps my piston rings have seized in the slots ? I can see a small blue spark when I turn it over but I'm a 67-year old pencil pusher so don't have the puff to keep pulling the cord and look for spark at the same time. Maybe it was running rich - anyway I'm going to do a leak down test (it has an ACR so compression test is difficult) and see what I find out. Never woulda occurred to me without your words of wisdom. From across the pond in Jolly Old (wet) England....thanks again!
Great job Taryl. Yep, that one was odd for as new as it was. I'm sure it would have stumped me for a bit also. Thanks for the great detail. T-bone Redneckville, South Carolina
This all reminds me of recently when my ATV didn’t want to start anymore. It died suddenly while riding just slowly around the property… i took all the plastics off and stripped it down, did troubleshooting for months before giving up. The bike was a few years old by now, but only had about 400 hrs on it. It had spark, held compression, and had good fuel pressure. Bench tested the temp sensor, the crank position sensor, the map sensor, and tps. Bench tested the magneto and pdm. Did continuity tests on all wires, harnesses and clips. Replaced the fuel pump and injector and a whim. Also replaced the idle air control valve solenoid on a whim. Replaced spark plug, plug wire, and coil. I checked the woodruff key and it was beauty. I absolutely had nothing left to go on except for valves and clearances, rings, crank/piston, decompression valve, timing etc. but it seemed waaaay to soon for that and in order to dig that deep the engine would need to come out, plus if any of those were the issue thats total bs and id be contacting Polaris directly - so I brought it to an authorized dealer. Took them almost 3 weeks to find the issue after repeating everything i had done previous. Turns out the timing chain tensioner failed at some point which advanced the timing by a few teeth retarding the engine AND the piston made contact with one of the valves and damaged almost everything internal… piston, crank, shaft, valves, lifters, keepers, rockers, retaining plate, and jug. Plus the oil pump had metal run through it, the timing chain is compromised, and it needs a new tensioner obviously - which I hope to upgrade to a hotcams brand aftermarket. Took pictures of everything and sent an enquiry to Polaris, even tho the bike is 11 months out of warranty at the time. They agreed it was a manufacturer defect and offered to pay for all the parts, but not labour. I resent another inquiry soon after thanking them, but saying just parts wasn’t enough… they agreed again and said they’d cover all parts, plus 50% of labour. Im sooo glad I sent those inquiries and very lucky Polaris stood by their product! Its been about 3 months now since and im still waiting to this day… some parts are on back order unfortunately, but im being patient and playing the game. Total repair cost is estimated at around 5000$ total… ill still be on the hook for around 1500$ but thats a hell of a cry better than writing off my 2017 ATV after less than 500 hours of use and being left with nothing but a frame, plastics and tires!
The push rods would probably interchange as long as you change the tappets too. The Briggs push rod was a little longer and the tappet was a little shorter, and the opposite for the predator by what looks to be the same amount. Unless the tappets won't fit into each other's blocks.
A 212 hemi will interchange including the crank, and cam. Non hemi have smaller cam mounts like the gx 160- 200 Honda so non hemi, and Honda interchange.
I moved to the Philippines 4 years ago and I just recently had a very similar problem with my generator. It also has a Cinesium Honda clone engine and it drove me nuts figuring out what was causing the problem. Power outages here are a weekly thing here, but I still run the gas out of the carb every time that I use it because of humidity and gas is never in the tank for more than 2 months. The first thing that I checked for was water in the tank and there wasn't any water in it and I had just put "fresh" gas in it just before this happened. I checked everything and could not figure out what happened until I bought gas at the same gas station for my motorcycle and it started running really bad. I bought some gas at a different companies station since every brand of gas use their own trucks, drained the tank and carb, added the new "fresh" gas and the problem was solved. I don't know what they diluted the gas with, but there wasn't any water in it. It kinda smelled like it was mixed with diesel fuel, which makes sense since most cars are diesel here. I don't know if it was deliberate or not, but I wouldn't be shocked if it was done intentionally. I asked a few friends about it and they said that they had bough gas for there bikes there and had similar problems and didn't go back to that station for gas anymore, so it must be intentional. It is also sad and funny at the same time that Briggs and Stratton are having problems from Chinese engines that are cloned from one of their competitors. American companies should have kept it American. At least the Japanese (Honda) want to keep there reputation by designing and building their own engines. Briggs deserves to lose their customers for buying junk that was copied from someone else and manufactured poorly in China!
The older I get, the more I appreciate value, especially when I consider how expensive power equipment is these days. So what has happened to a famous name like Briggs and Stratton is pretty sad. Also, I'm just a learn by doing homeowner --not a professional mechanic -- but my common sense tells me plastic cam lobes in a high pressure part of an engine isnt a good idea.
Tecumseh used plastic camshafts on their OHV engines. As long as you don't run them low on oil or use high strength valve springs they last just fine. I've sprayed starting fluid in many junkyard tecumsehs and had them start up first pull.
Its really the only way to test piston aircraft engines. Never used a compression gauge because the differential tester did it all. Holding the prop at TDC made it easy. You would of heard the air leaking from the oil fill or dipstick.
My Agri Fab leaf vac works pretty good but has the B&G 900 Intek series 205cc 9ft.lbs motor. The factory hose was replaced with premium vac hose and on front of top plastic raised section added a plexiglass window to see when full to avoid clogging.I don't dump it but have a plastic ice fishing sled inside and just pull out all the leaves saving time.
The scrub cadet had 60 pounds of compression because it still had it's compression release operating. The Briggs, with the CR removed, was actually too low, I thought.
Yes but not by much it should have had about 80-90 with not CR, but without a CR, he wasn't able to pull it at full speed either. But stuck rings might seal enough down in the hole to get somewhat decent compression, but if the stuck rings were leaking at or just past TDC, what was happening was every time the cylinder fired, and the piston began to move on the power stroke, all the pressure would blow-by. I was noticing when he had it running with no valve cover, it looked quite smoky, like it had too much blowby. It was way too much blowby for only 10 hours so I was already thinking bad rings, or scored cylinder wall at that point in the video. Look at @21:45
@@brnmcc01 He actually remarked that the Briggs was easy to pull and did not need a compression release. It was easy to pull because it had low compression, imo.
I hade a honda engine with the same problem as the Briggs went through everything like you did. Finally found the problem the rings on the piston were hanging up fixed it and it ran
I'm 16 minutes in and before I see the whole video I want to say that these engines came with plastic crankshaft gears, if the molded key shears or is installed incorrectly (or melts) the cam timing will change every time you pull the rope. I taught small engine repair for votech and had a student with the same engine and problem. Took me a while to figure it out.
Question : if it's determined that rings are stuck, is there a chance that soaking the cylinder with snake oil, ATF, or something like marvel could remedy the situation? This video was absolutely amazing and I really learned from it. I claim myself as an efficient grass rat, but so many times have been tunnel visioned in the wrong direction. Thank you for sharing the struggle!
The chances are that you’ll free them rings all right. The challenge now is to keep them from getting stuck again. So to prevent this from happening again in the future change the rings or even better piston and rings together. Don’t forget to break in the piston rings as you would do with new engine (5-6 hours run at minimum with first oil change after 1-2 hours)
Hey Taryl that was a interesting one. I'm not a small engine mechanic but have learned a lot in the year i have been watching your videos. So when the cylinder head heated up and expanded, the engine lost compression and slowly lost power and died because the piston rings were stuck closed around the piston. Good job showing that to Briggs.
Taryl, it seems like all of these manufacturers are dropping the ball. I had a nice little Hustler Dash with the junk single cylinder Power Built engine. I knew the crank was eventually going to fail. I sold it and got an older mower
At least the warning label is still available! At $20.99! I love your channel. As a former mechanic, I feel your pain. The world reset hadn't happened yet when I was still employed so I REALLY feel sorry for those still in it!
That's awesome that you figured this problem out, good info for us diy'rs. And those Predator engines usually have really good reviews. I've read many of them on RUclips, I wouldn't hesitate at all to use one on a piece of equipment.
The reason one motor had 60psi and other had 80psi is because the 60psi had the compression release working. The motor that had 80psi without a compression release is too low. Should have been 100+ without a compression release. Also, you can tell where the leak is by feeling over the carb, muffler and oil check port to see where the leak is when doing the leak down test.
Oh! That explains the higher compression, which to my mind should have been lower if the rings were stuck into the grooves. I forgot he'd already removed the compression release! Thanks so much for catching that and mentioning it - saved me asking the obvious question.
I love using my leakdown- so useful. Taryl should have remembered about the comp release he took off. It looked like he had low blood sugar or was coming down with something! Or lack of sleep.
I just repaired one of the Mow-N-Vacs from the late 90's the other day. It was cream colored and had the engine turned sideways (pull rope was towards the back). Anyway, it had a 5hp Briggs on it. Ended up needing a carb service with new diaphragm and oil change. Would run while cold, but wouldn't start back once hot. Long story short, had to put a new coil, plug. $500 later in parts and labor, it ran like new. Customer questioned if he made the right choice to get the old one repaired instead of buying a new one. I told him the old ones would last a LONG time and new ones are kinda junk. Looks like this video confirms he made the right choice to repair the old one. In old machines, I put Castrol Syntec High Mileage full synthetic oil. Very expensive but lasts a very long time in small machines. Great for people who rarely do oil changes, which is basically everyone under 35.
Stuck rings could have been caused by running it too hard for the first 20 hours. We used an old broken piston ring to clean out the grooves, so they had the correct 2 thou or so clearance... It happened more often with two-stroke motors.
Having just spent 3 years on a breaks and scrappem in my rare spare time, and after a life time repairing and building engines, I was also stumped on this one engine. It had all sorts of broken parts all at the same time, bent valve push rods, valve seats leaking, broken spark module, blown head gasket, gummed up carby worse than ever seen before, and they don't make the carby parts any more. Wiring harness issues, Start decompressor outside of max Crank RPM specs, Bad spark plug, and sheered flywheel keyway all at the same time. Repaired all and it still would not run. Passed all the tests I could think of. It would fire every stroke, but not run. A bit like yours. Got it running last week, turned out the first repair I did to the engine broke again, without it even starting and running and being put to use. That fault turned out to be a sheered flywheel keyway, that put the timing out just a bit, enough to fire every stroke but too much out to let it run. I never thought to recheck a new item just replaced, but that is what it was. Lightening sometimes strikes twice. Now it's the easiest starting engine I own. The mower is years old but has hardly had any use... as it was always in the shop broken with something. Without watching your video past 34 mins, that's my guess as to your problem as well... now, let's see the rest of the video.
Well there you go, very interesting video Tarryl. Wasn't my guess, but something even rarer, that being stuck rings and couldn't suck fuel or compress at higher rpm and probably had a lot of blow by. Similar to when a decompressor spring is too stiff and most of the starting stroke blows air back the wrong way through the carby, so it can't suck enough fuel to start.
Love this guy, just a few questions please address them, been working on small engines also, a little while, lol,,, why didn't you check fuel line delivery first ? Also if rings are stuck, wouldn't compression be either very low, or very high ? 80 psi is about normal for that size piston. Seems if fuel delivery was normal, when the muffler was removed and the pull start was engaged , over and over, there would have been either fire thru the exhaust port, or at least backfire? I personally believe this engine suffered from , fuel starvation and a partially sheared flywheel key,, advanced or retarded timing?, please address these questions, I really enjoy this channel, but stuck rings, the psi was too on point to be the reason, exhaust valve was loose as he explained, so good fuel delivery would or should have delivered backfire or severe flooding, please get back, thanks
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twisted crank. tossin the flywheel off. got me on this one for sure. agreed tho 10 hours wtf i wonder how far out of round the hole is ??? you had no smoke for bein stuck rings...
I think the compression test told the story. The Briggs without it's CR installed, should have been much higher than 80 pounds. The scrub cadet, with it's CR installed and working, was correct at about 60 pounds.
Are the valves bent?
So you are telling me a Predator engine is now better than a B&S engine? We are screwed!
You’re awesome! I love seeing you stumped because I know you’re not going to stop until you find out what the issues are. I’m going to learn… You care about us grass 🐀’s in Georgia.
It's refreshing to see a seasoned tech struggle with a engine. It gives us backwoods hacks a glimmer of hope to keep on keeping on. Thank you Taryl
had a bad coil spin a fly wheel and keep sheering keys before, you'd think they'd either spark or not spark but sometimes when they go bad they go off-time a bit
Lawn mower shops, its fun to try to run it as a flat rate shop, he is spending all this time on one project, i have been here several times chasing strange no start issues, or machine function issues, sometimes not enough hours in the day
I cant believe that B&S would make a Clone of the qualiity Honda motor, They obviously couldn't get that right ever. So bad piston rings, they paid that quickly, PR is working hard for the mistake of the Bean Counter's!
I was blown away when he said he’s never done a cylinder leak down test before. If I get an engine I can’t diagnose quickly with the usual test, I do a cylinder leak down test. It only takes a few minutes, literally, and you know if one or both valves are leaking, if it’s losing compression past the rings, if it’s a blown head gasket, etc. it would’ve saved him a lot of time.
That leak down tester he used from Harbor Freight is garbage. They sell one now made by Maddox that works great.
Another thing I noticed. When you do a cylinder leak down test, you have everything connected to the cylinder from the start. You do not pressurize the tester and then connect it to the cylinder hose. Lol.
You use the leak down tester to find exact top dead center, once there, you do have to clamp the engine into place. If it’s at exact top dead center it will stay there even after you put pressure into the cylinder.
Not many channels will do what Taryl does. Most channels wouldn't upload themselves struggling but thats part of yhe process and an invaluable step in diagnosis. This channel is a treasure ❤
Taryl's a Super Man! I can't believe how many times he pulled that recoil and never was out of breath or even slowed down! He might be on the thin side, but I'm guessing he's wiry as heck and all muscle! I might have been like that in my 30's and 40's and maybe even into my early 50's before I ruptured a disc, but now at 76 that much pulling would have pretty much have finished me for any kind of strenuous work for the day. ;-)
That would've destroyed me after the 1st set! LOL Either a heart attack or another round of back surgery! Taryl's stamina blew my mind!
Yeah I noticed that too pulling like that would throw you back out if you weren't warmed up at my age I'm 62... And I think he did it to show that Briggs & Stratton it's just another one of these companies that's really chins and out and putting plastic f****** camshaft ....
Taryl workout video dressed like Richard Simmons 😂
This year I refurbished a 1948 Whizzer-you know what they are-I couldn't get the engine to run right-good spark, fuel, etc. Finally I pulled the cylinder off, and found that the rings were completely worn out-put in new rings, and it runs like a champ-it had me stumped as well-thanks, Taryl and crew!
Whizzers are cool. I used to ride with the West Coast whizzer club in California.
That unnatural metallic squeaking when you're trying to start it... What the???
Total length of tappet + push rod probably equal between B&S and HF... B&S rod longer, tappet shorter... HF rod shorter, tappet longer
I'm still stumped why the thing had 80 lbs. compression with stuck rings. Great video Taryl. Thanks! I'd have thought that officer wasn't a rookie with how he handled that arrest. Great job Officer Faryl!
Because the leak was not a constant and sometimes the rings even sealed which is why it would run occasionally. This is a guess until someone has a better answer. Excellent work !!!
oil control rings create compression
The way the compression tester works is that it goes up to the maximum compression achieved but doesn’t go down again until you push the release pressure button. The leak down tester compares pressure in the cylinder on a steady state basis versus the pressure being introduced using an air line. With perfect a no leak down cylinder if Taryl introduced air at 60 lbs(it just bleeds air in) the cylinder would show 60 lbs also. However there is always some leak down past the rings in any engine. The problem is that there was WAY too much.
@@jasoncook5307 Compression rings are supposed to seal the combustion chamber from the crankcase. Oil control rings regulate how much oil is on the cylinder walls. I highly doubt any engine manual would say oil control rings create compression.
@@KStewart-th4sk because manuals are not made for engines with stuck compression rings.
That crazy engine was even pissun ME off,... but the Lawn Mower Detectives brought some great humor to the day. Great video guys.
You know Daryl, I was an green aircraft mechanic many, many, years ago. I used a differential air compression tester, not knowing how it worked, but only once did I find a cylinder not hold pressure, because it had a hole in the piston. I keep learning more and more as I watch these video’s. Keep up the good work.
Thanks guys! I had a great time helping solve crimes. See you next time. PS the Dunkman's donuts were great but I'm still waiting for that steak dinner.
You're getting better all the time.
I can't believe how far your production value has come and I love that you have a way for your business to not only survive, but thrive.
God bless you brother.
Now THIS is real mower detective work! Excellent video!
Wow..thnks for takng the time to figure this 1 out. As a homeowner who doesn't have much time to figure these our it nice to see you take the time to trbleshoot rather than charge, replace, or junk the whole show. I knw one guy who wantd a tune up for his toro, it cost him as much as a new rather than just doin most himself
Thank you for sharing that problem, & the paths you took trying to figure out the real problem. That is for sure one of those hard learned most remembered lessons! Briggs quality tanked years ago, & they are barely running on reputation at this point. How do they pay your time on something like this?
Just like , stihl , husksvarna , echo and toro , ford , Chevy , GE , the list goes all the way down the line , the leaders in charge ned to fix these problems or be held accountable
My intec have been good if you keep mice nests out of them.
That certainly helped me add to my things to look at, had a Briggs, their Vanguard line, on a Cyclone rake come into the shop. Needed a carb and coil initially to just try and get it running. Mouse chewed coil wire jacket and I figured coil was shorting out through the hole in the jacket to the metal covers or head. Carb was gummed up and pitted. Get that replaced and still wouldn’t start. Found this engine to have no compression. Customer opted to not fix or repower it. Appreciate these videos as they help me better myself and skills as some of these things are not covered in trainings offered by the manufacturers.
I had this same issue on an old 18hp opposed twin for the whole season last year. Every time I would go to start it, I'd have to fight it again. Starter fluid and jump starting, etc.etc.. and nothing would ever work until randomly-- it would just start for no apparent reason; drove me nuts because I'm usually good at fixing this stuff. But it ran strong I could mow with it non-stop.. but after I parked it, I would have to fight it all over again the next time. Well finally one day when I couldn't start it: it was bad enough that it was blowing pressure out of the oil fill cap.. literally spraying oil out of the cap when I took it off. So I knew that it had stuck rings after that and had really bad blowby.. Once I took it all apart, I realized that it had a good amount of grass secretly hiding under the covers when I had already cleaned it at the start of the season-- so it must have been over heating too. It's on the healing bench at the moment; I'll get to it eventually
The Healing Bench! Nice!
Great video Taryl. Just about everything you need to know in order to troubleshoot and repair a small engine. These companies really need to STOP outsourcing their builds to China. It's real Grade 'A' Crapola!
Stuck rings is the last thing I would have thought of. I really like using a leak down tester. It doesn't take that much more effort to use over a compression tester and it provides a lot more information. The leak down tester will tell you about leaking intake or exhaust valves, holed pistons and blown head gaskets all in one test.
Agreed. But it sucks that Taryl had to resort to a leak-down test on a practically new engine. So much junk on the market from previously solid name brands. This video's got me thinking I should rebuild an old engine in my scrap pile. All of the parts are such higher quality.
I wonder if he could measure crank case pressure compared to a properly running engine.
@@dumbluck6180 I wood a nd metal hydraulics and may tag fun
Could brim
K
Could broken valve spring cause hard starting ?
I'm at 32:00. I think you have low compression. With the compression release on it, you will get 60 PSI, but without it I would expect higher compression, more than 100. Wouldn't you think? I bet if you took the compression relief off the predator and checked it like you did the Briggs it would be much higher. Just my guess at this point.
Finished video. Stuck rings probably a quality control problem, and obviously not something you would expect on a new engine! I bet the machining on the ring grooves was out of spec, too tight. To clarify what I said above, the compression release will function only at low RPM (ie: while starting) and keep the compression only at 60 PSI, but as soon as it fires and the RPM climbs the compression release should stop functioning and the compression should quickly increase to max compression which I would expect more like 100+ PSI, but that may vary with the engine. I'd be really interested if you did a follow up and checked the compression on that predator without the compression release. Interesting video, thanks for posting.
God bless your Sunday Taryl, You ROCK!
Howdy Cuz! I just got back home and had a chance to watch the whole video. Excellent job for not giving up, one of your best vids yet. I had a similar thing happen several years ago and once I used a cylinder leak down tester, I found the problem. Those things are great at telling where the air is leaking - if you hear air coming out of the carbitrator it's the intake valve, mufkin it's the exhaust valve, oil fill hole it's the rings and if the head gasket is leaking externally you can spray soapy water around the gasket area and look for bubbles. In any case you now have something to help find the problem. I sure had fun visiting with you guys and being part of Lawn Mower Detectives. You guys are the best!!!
There's your engine on your dinner! Great job Taryl! Never would have thought of that. Especially in a new or almost new engine.
Great job sticking with it thank you for all your sharing of knowledge. Really didn’t think you’d get 80lbs with stuck rings I guess the leak down test was worth it. Ed
Holy buckets !!!Good video . I can't tell you how many times I've been stumped like that🤯. had quite a few CT70s do that same thing rings sticking then im pounding my head against the wall (not to Alice in chains 😆) before i Figure out whats going on
Good fix Taryl. I would still change the fuel cap because when it did run it would die after a few minutes. Also I had a briggs riding lawn mower that had a bad compression release, Would start and locked up the starter. Briggs said the cam was back ordered for about six months. I bought an aftermarket cam and held my breath that it would not fail. So far it is still good. Thanks for a great video.
This skit went above and beyond. It was really funny and a nice way to start my morning
I totally agree , enjoyed it while eating breakfast. Taryl can figure it out . My shoulder cringed when I watch how many times you had to pull that rope “ it’s not starting” said in * high pitched voice . (Hubby always cracks up when Taryl talks to himself in this way) we love your show Taryl LOL Had to pause it so I wouldn’t choke while laughing at the lawn mower detectives skit too !
I felt your frustration throughout the video. I still don't understand how you can get good compression readings and have stuck rings... I don't think I would have found that problem! It's true to life, things don't always go as expected when you're troubleshooting.-- thanks for the great work!!!
I have seen good compression readings and leak down showed intake valve was leaking. That is when I started using a leak down tester exclusively.
I would not have thought of stuck rings. My son would have lol but Taryl you are still the go to guy. Thanks for the video and all the great info. There's your dinner wooooooo
Leak down testing has saved me time and helps to quickly identify or rule out problems. I have a HF leak down tester, but a better one than Taryl used. The better ones give you a direct pressure loss reading and you can calculated % loss.. About $85 at HF. I highly recommend you get a leak down tester that allows you to calculate the % loss. Helpful video in many areas.
I rebuilt my dads Honda GSV190 powered Honda lawnmower which I filled up with semi synthetic oil,it has done only 5 hours of work but it will start getting a workout tomorrow since it's late spring in my area here in Australia, the rain & heat has made the grass grow like crazy.
That stuck ring issue is what sort of happened to the Intek engine on my grandfathers John Deere lawn tractor which my uncle gave him,he didn't change the oil & he kept on cranking & cranking the engine until he burned out the starter motor.
Even the local lawnmower mechanic in town thought that a broken compression release on the camshaft was a cause of the starter motor problem until he pulled the cover off the engine.
It still had compression albeit a scored cylinder & my grandfather hasn't really wanted to talk to me ever since because I unbolted the engine & he thought that I was wrong about things,I always never have a habit of stuffing things up like they did.
When my uncle got remarried 2 weekends ago he didn't want to talk to me at the wedding either,I think that it was because I got a different McDonagh whose wasn't a Green one of whose Mahers whose a Gray !
I’ve been saying the same about Briggs going down hill, I know the Chinese Powermore engines are mainly on MTD stuff but I’ve always liked the ones on the snow blowers. The ones on the mowers seem fine too, I think They’re made by Zongshen and I believe they’re one of the better Chinese manufacturers probably the same ones that make Predator motors. Parts can be pricey though
Communist made motors!
Zongshen engines are sweet they come on 4 speed Chinese pit bikes and can take serious abuse
@@evanknight3629 no experience with the little pit bike engines but I've got a Chinese dual sport(zongshen 230cc Honda ch clone engine) and it's at least survived 20,000 miles so far and still running well from what I can tell, so regardless they seem to be worth the money 1600 for a new motorcycle I've got my moneys worth even if it blows up tomorrow
Fascinating video Taryl Fixes all! This is a total 'back to formula' video! You were very calm!
*high pitched voice. 'Lawn mower detectives!'.. Henceforth, I hereby nominate, this day, November 12 National Grass Rats day! Happy 4 you!
I kept thinking a broken valve stem valve - but you said it would run occasionally. I did notice that there was no vent on the gas cap. But didn't know if that would cause an issue. Now I wonder if that caused an increase in cylinder pressure and cooked the rings? Doubt it - no cylinder wall damage mentioned. Good work man.
Running lean for too long will overheat it I think
Thank you for sharing this video. I have a TORO Time cutter with the 2P77F v Twin motor. this is an older zero turn that has just quit o me.
In my "Detective" diagnosing, I ended up doing a compression test. One cylinder has 150pi, the other has 60psi, obviously, not right. I thought it was a valve, so I lapped the one with low compression.
If I crank the engine for about 3 min, it will eventually start, some times. Just like yours.
I have adjusted the valves, still not running.
So I was thinking it was the Compression Relief, or the CAM, but that does not make sense since the valves were functioning.
The one cylinder also is dry and is not getting gas on start up. IF I get it running, it runs like it is on 1.5 cylinders,
Then I thaought it must be the rings, bt since it has compression and the compression does not drop, I rued it out.
But now that you did a leak down test, I bet that if I did the test on mine, I would have the same results as your.
So, off I go to pull the motor and check the rings on the one cylinder.
Love the fact he’s a Briggs dealer and still calls them Breaks and Scrap ‘em 😄
I have a Poulan Pro PR621 snow blower, it came with an STB 208cc engine. I bought it around 2009, and a couple years ago the engine stopped starting, just about like this one. Now that was after quite a few years. The blower was still in pretty good condition and I had just replaced the paddles and some other stuff. So I bought a Predator 212 for $99 (before the massive inflation). I retrofitted the side cover, carb, muffler, pull, etc. from the STB so I could keep the blowers cover and controls and all that, and for example the top oil dipstick.
After looking at the engines, they are both the Honda clones just like these. I could tell they probably were manufactuered in the same plants (maybe not), even the way the laser etching of the serial was very similar but obviously different between 10 years. I didn't check if the cams were identical, BUT the side cover fit without any modification so at least the bearing IDs were the same.
Was a fun little project.
2 yrs and I’d imagine low hrs. What junk. You know it’s an issue when parts are Nla. Great channel thanks for the laughs and education.
An old car tech showed me a spark plug lower he welded on to a air nipple. I did the same, always works! Just listen and see where the air is leaking out when you pressurize the cylinder. You don't need the vise grips on a car engine, but you will on a mower/small engine. That guy showed me that in 1982.
Appreciate you showing us how to save bucks on gaskets for these rebuilds.
Great show by the way!
This was one of the best videos I have seen. Learn a lot of stuff about motors. Thanks.
@briggsandstratton are you guys paying attention? All the chinesium in your products are destroying what’s left of your once sterling reputation
Pieces ain't available because they've broke on everybodies elses engine too, they're sold out😂
To be clear do they care? Everyone else's engines made in China as well.... If there's no good options at least a brand name alone will sell
It's not like China isn't capable of producing high quality steel. They are very capable. Briggs isn't REQUIRING them to do it. They certainly could but they don't care.
Not sure if their rep was always so sterling. For decades Briggs engines have been notoriously tempermental. Will it start today or not? 😢😢
There Sterling reputation began disappearing 60 years ago
I enjoyed this episode. You covered alot of diagnostic scenarios, good stuff for us amateurs. Thanks Taryl and I also enjoyed seeing my favorite character Jackyl, he is the funniest man in show business
Great video. How do you get such high compression with such a big leak down? Stuck rings, seems to me would result in low compression
The compression was low, he removed the compression release but compared it against a motor that had the compression release installed. Without a compression release it should have been over 100 psi easy and he should have felt difficulty in pulling the engine over. The whole, "pulling this engine over is easy, I don't know why they would even need a compression release" should have made him suspect compression issues.
When you had that exhaust off, the sound it made was very strange. I figured something was up with the cylinder.
And I hardly never use compression tester on 4-strokes, that compression release throws off the readings, and can very.
Leak down testers saves alot of time and helps me narrow down where to start looking.
I suggest a OTC leak down tester. I had good luck with mine.
Great video Taryl
Plastic gear is one thing.. but the fact that it has plastic cam LOBES is just nuts
That’s really common. All these minibikes you see at Walmart or tractor supply have plastic cams in them. It doesn’t cause a quality problem. Had a few bikes with Chinese engines with the same plastic cam for over 10 years and still run fine. They’re not designed to overspin past 4,500 rpm’s.
Briggs & Stratton started using plastic cams about 30 years ago, actually probably a little longer than that on the 3.5 Classic L heads. They aren't normally a problem
It's usually a plastic gear that fails before the cam lobes, and that failure is usually from some other original cause.
A typical scenerio for B&S engines is fuel from a failing carburetor flows into the crankcase, diluting the oil and raising the level. Somewhat later the engine breaks a timing gear, perhaps after running great for its last few seconds. Did it fail from overspeed, the long term fuel soak weakening the plastic gear, or the high oil level putting too much load on the valve system?
A buddy of mine was telling me the other day that BMW has or is working on this thing were instead of having a throttle cable or even throttle by wire they are going further now,they will be moving the camshaft back and forth (inside the engine!!!) to lower the idle,lol,lets forgo the 10 dollar throttle cable and do something ridiculous and complex,cars are getting so insane and expensive pretty soon all you'll be seeing are old cars on the road.
I realize this video is about mowers but everyone is being affected by these crazy times we are living in,Ive heard of the industrial revolution but this is ridiculous,lol
@@dntlss BMW has had throttle-by-wire for a quarter century.
The 1998-era M52tu engine was a transition. It had a throttle cable going to the throttle body, where it moved a throttle position sensor. The engine computer read that position, and moved a motorized throttle plate that was immediately adjacent. That allowed using the new throttle-by-wire engine into vehicles designed around a throttle cable.
(There was actually a mechanical throttle shaft between the two. But it was a backup in case of a failure, using an incomplete coupling. The computer was normally the only source of throttle plate movement, but the mechanical linkage could partially open the throttle plate if the motor failed.)
The next generation M54 engine used a very similar intake manifold and throttle body, but with the throttle position sensor half removed. That engine could only be used with an electronic throttle pedal.
The recent engines control the intake charge entirely by controlling the intake valve opening, part of the variable valve timing. Initially that was paired with a traditional throttle body that was largely redundant, but later the throttle body was removed.
Was thinking of minute cracks in engine or carb problem. My thoughts before watching full video. Well done Taryl.
Hey...It seems everyone loves those Predator Engines! They've even put them in old ranger pickups and they actually pull the darn thing!
I know because you can get them at harbor freight everybody used to love them because they were only $100 but now there like $160 everybody builds them 212cc engines up to 20hp for minibikes
@@seanmckay3392
Yep! Man you show is funny as monkey with a beanie!
Haven't laughed so hard since 'Married with Children'!
Kept it up! Better than most shows on Network TTTTVVVV!😜😄
I can see frozen rings after 10 hrs of run time.
I've had that problem in the past with valves. With these modern cheap engines, their design is sensitive to burning stale gas. So the customer runs for a few hrs one year, puts up for the winter, comes out in the spring and starts up, runs with stale gas and the varnish, while the engine is running and hot coats the valve stems (in my case) which freeze up after the engine cools back down and the engine wont start the next time (or any time after that until you take it apart and clean the valve stems up). In your case, I suspect the varnish, for whatever reason, migrated to the cylinder walls and got picked up by the rings which froze when the engine cooled back down. It would have been interesting to see if you could free up the stuck rings in your video - my guess is that you could have.
Always run the engine out of gas - let it just sit there and idle if that's what it takes - a dry fuel tank over the winter time and your rig will start and run reliably the next year.
I really enjoyed this video and learned a lot. B&S has really gone down in recent years. Keep up the great work Taryl and crew.
Thank You The dry plug is a clue to the piston ring problem You nailed it! Thanks for sharing.
Great video Taryl, keep them coming.
I'm 31 minutes in to this thing. This is a little frustrating. I didn't see him put the B&S cam back together with decompression in the machine when he was testing the compression. so 80 psi is very low if there is no decompression on the cam, 80 is way too low to run. Should have closer to 150 psi. I bet the top end is toast from lack of lubrication. Just a prediction. UPDATE: just finished it. So it was the top end, stuck rings. I was close. I love he brought out the leak down tester. That is the 4th or 5th item we use when something like this happens at the shop. We usually start with carb (shot of starter fluid), spark plug (does it spark, is it wet), exhaust (air coming out?), compression test (60-80psi for hand start engine), leak down test if all tests come back good. Glad you got it running! Very informative as always.
You'll get it going bro you are a good mechanic
I bought a new B&S arbor for a 1970's Simplicity mower deck a year ago, and it came with the shaft having a thick coating of hard paint. I had to use paint remover and a few hours of labor to strip it off. It's a darned shame thing have gone this south with B&S - engine failure after 10 hours. Nice to see Ronnie Jerkenstein guest star.
As tenacious as a pit bull! Indeed TarylFixesAll!
I was gonna say ignition after everything hung you talked about. Here last winter I installed a msd coil on my 5.0 mustang that I bought just to complement the 6al2 box on it, and just for insurance off having a new coil on it. Was on there for about 3-4 months and I noticed the car having starting issues, really long cranks, done random misfires. Well one day when dropping my son off at school, it just died and would not fire back up. Hitched a ride to work, where I had my stock ford coil and brought it home with me. Went back to the school and car till was a crank no start, plugged the old Ford coil back in and it fired right up. The car has been running way better than before, no more random misses and long cranks. It just slowly started messing up. Now I’ve learned that the new msd stuff is junk these days, heck even the old 6al2 box has taken a crap. But the coil seemed to ohm out ok, 1.2 on the primary and 3.3k on the secondary? Kinda seems like what your dealing with here.
80 pounds with stuck rings. That oil ring was really trying to keep up and take one for the team 😂
I would have call in the Marvel Mystery oil Team for the save
I love that if something stumps you you don't give up. You always figure out what it is. And that's what I like to do makes you feel good when you figure it out. Good job Taryl👍👍👍👍
Good to know that I am not alone when it comes to getting stumped! Thanks Taryl!
Honestly I thought the coil had messed up, until you proved that wrong! I would have never thought about stuck rings. Thank you for a great video sir
That was a hell of a lot of time to spend on that repair!!!
Time spent finding the problem just replaced the engine with a HF engine
Wow.. that was a doosey of a problem Taryl. Great troubleshooting tutorial though!
Thanx for taking us along for the ride to learn how to check everything! 👍
Amazing is all I can say. B&S probably makes double on those foreign parts so that they can pay those warranty claims as quickly as they do. Like you Ive seen plenty of stuck rings especially on two strokes, but very few on 4 strokes that had oil in them. Good Job Taryl.
AgraFab leaf vacuum suggestion - I've had a couple and if you run it too long and fill the cart, the chute can clog up and take quite a bit of time to restore air flow. I made a view window. I cut an opening on the top next to the chute and covered it with a plastic plate. Noe I can see when the cart is about full and empty it before the chute clogs.
I wonder if the ringlands on the piston were machined too thin. Enough room for the rings to move initially, but even a slight bit of sludge from normal operation caused them to stick. Adequate clearance might have accommodated the little bit of sludge. That's my theory.
I am thinking the same thing. A machining problem from the factory, and the most tiny amount of 'varnish' or sludge forming in the ring land caused them to stick real quick. It's totally normal to have a little bit of varnish form on any engine, new or old, but when the factory screws up and doesn't provide correct clearance, BOOM !!! It's junk.
I'm thinking something in the fuel, some oil, additives, contaminates, old fuel, etc. sometimes additives can be very bad if the tolerances are tight and they run lean for emissions cruft.
I bet you're right.@@throttlebottle5906
Another terrific vid Taryl! I've been trying get a Krohler K-141 to run without success. It used to run fine but then after a long day's work it just gave up. I've been convinced it was from lack of spark so have tried two coils one of which was a brand new genuine Krohler part. Still no joy. I had experts look at the magnets in the flywheel but still no go. But with this experience of yours perhaps my piston rings have seized in the slots ? I can see a small blue spark when I turn it over but I'm a 67-year old pencil pusher so don't have the puff to keep pulling the cord and look for spark at the same time.
Maybe it was running rich - anyway I'm going to do a leak down test (it has an ACR so compression test is difficult) and see what I find out. Never woulda occurred to me without your words of wisdom. From across the pond in Jolly Old (wet) England....thanks again!
Mind boggling. I learned something about leak down testers. Thanks!
Thanks for a great episode from an old ag teacher small engines instructor. You are great.
Mustie 1 would be amazed at an hour vid from grass rats
Great job Taryl. Yep, that one was odd for as new as it was. I'm sure it would have stumped me for a bit also. Thanks for the great detail. T-bone
Redneckville, South Carolina
This all reminds me of recently when my ATV didn’t want to start anymore. It died suddenly while riding just slowly around the property… i took all the plastics off and stripped it down, did troubleshooting for months before giving up. The bike was a few years old by now, but only had about 400 hrs on it. It had spark, held compression, and had good fuel pressure. Bench tested the temp sensor, the crank position sensor, the map sensor, and tps. Bench tested the magneto and pdm. Did continuity tests on all wires, harnesses and clips. Replaced the fuel pump and injector and a whim. Also replaced the idle air control valve solenoid on a whim. Replaced spark plug, plug wire, and coil. I checked the woodruff key and it was beauty. I absolutely had nothing left to go on except for valves and clearances, rings, crank/piston, decompression valve, timing etc. but it seemed waaaay to soon for that and in order to dig that deep the engine would need to come out, plus if any of those were the issue thats total bs and id be contacting Polaris directly - so I brought it to an authorized dealer. Took them almost 3 weeks to find the issue after repeating everything i had done previous. Turns out the timing chain tensioner failed at some point which advanced the timing by a few teeth retarding the engine AND the piston made contact with one of the valves and damaged almost everything internal… piston, crank, shaft, valves, lifters, keepers, rockers, retaining plate, and jug. Plus the oil pump had metal run through it, the timing chain is compromised, and it needs a new tensioner obviously - which I hope to upgrade to a hotcams brand aftermarket. Took pictures of everything and sent an enquiry to Polaris, even tho the bike is 11 months out of warranty at the time. They agreed it was a manufacturer defect and offered to pay for all the parts, but not labour. I resent another inquiry soon after thanking them, but saying just parts wasn’t enough… they agreed again and said they’d cover all parts, plus 50% of labour. Im sooo glad I sent those inquiries and very lucky Polaris stood by their product! Its been about 3 months now since and im still waiting to this day… some parts are on back order unfortunately, but im being patient and playing the game. Total repair cost is estimated at around 5000$ total… ill still be on the hook for around 1500$ but thats a hell of a cry better than writing off my 2017 ATV after less than 500 hours of use and being left with nothing but a frame, plastics and tires!
The push rods would probably interchange as long as you change the tappets too. The Briggs push rod was a little longer and the tappet was a little shorter, and the opposite for the predator by what looks to be the same amount. Unless the tappets won't fit into each other's blocks.
A 212 hemi will interchange including the crank, and cam.
Non hemi have smaller cam mounts like the gx 160- 200 Honda so non hemi, and Honda interchange.
I moved to the Philippines 4 years ago and I just recently had a very similar problem with my generator. It also has a Cinesium Honda clone engine and it drove me nuts figuring out what was causing the problem. Power outages here are a weekly thing here, but I still run the gas out of the carb every time that I use it because of humidity and gas is never in the tank for more than 2 months. The first thing that I checked for was water in the tank and there wasn't any water in it and I had just put "fresh" gas in it just before this happened. I checked everything and could not figure out what happened until I bought gas at the same gas station for my motorcycle and it started running really bad. I bought some gas at a different companies station since every brand of gas use their own trucks, drained the tank and carb, added the new "fresh" gas and the problem was solved. I don't know what they diluted the gas with, but there wasn't any water in it. It kinda smelled like it was mixed with diesel fuel, which makes sense since most cars are diesel here. I don't know if it was deliberate or not, but I wouldn't be shocked if it was done intentionally. I asked a few friends about it and they said that they had bough gas for there bikes there and had similar problems and didn't go back to that station for gas anymore, so it must be intentional.
It is also sad and funny at the same time that Briggs and Stratton are having problems from Chinese engines that are cloned from one of their competitors. American companies should have kept it American. At least the Japanese (Honda) want to keep there reputation by designing and building their own engines. Briggs deserves to lose their customers for buying junk that was copied from someone else and manufactured poorly in China!
The older I get, the more I appreciate value, especially when I consider how expensive power equipment is these days. So what has happened to a famous name like Briggs and Stratton is pretty sad. Also, I'm just a learn by doing homeowner --not a professional mechanic -- but my common sense tells me plastic cam lobes in a high pressure part of an engine isnt a good idea.
Tecumseh used plastic camshafts on their OHV engines. As long as you don't run them low on oil or use high strength valve springs they last just fine. I've sprayed starting fluid in many junkyard tecumsehs and had them start up first pull.
No matter what it is now , everything is junk!
Great episode 👍🏻
I replaced a Tecumseh snowblower engine with a Chinese made Princess Auto Pro-Point engine. Rebuilding the Tecumseh was crazy $$$.
Glad to see Jaryl Jack is back in action! Also we need more Donnie!
Thanks for making my life easier when I face my problems, Would have given up and replaced engine, I loose my KOOL easy and throw wrenches.
Its really the only way to test piston aircraft engines. Never used a compression gauge because the differential tester did it all. Holding the prop at TDC made it easy. You would of heard the air leaking from the oil fill or dipstick.
My Agri Fab leaf vac works pretty good but has the B&G 900 Intek series 205cc 9ft.lbs motor. The factory hose was replaced with premium vac hose and on front of top plastic raised section added a plexiglass window to see when full to avoid clogging.I don't dump it but have a plastic ice fishing sled inside and just pull out all the leaves saving time.
The scrub cadet had 60 pounds of compression because it still had it's compression release operating. The Briggs, with the CR removed, was actually too low, I thought.
Yes but not by much it should have had about 80-90 with not CR, but without a CR, he wasn't able to pull it at full speed either. But stuck rings might seal enough down in the hole to get somewhat decent compression, but if the stuck rings were leaking at or just past TDC, what was happening was every time the cylinder fired, and the piston began to move on the power stroke, all the pressure would blow-by. I was noticing when he had it running with no valve cover, it looked quite smoky, like it had too much blowby. It was way too much blowby for only 10 hours so I was already thinking bad rings, or scored cylinder wall at that point in the video. Look at @21:45
@@brnmcc01 He actually remarked that the Briggs was easy to pull and did not need a compression release. It was easy to pull because it had low compression, imo.
I hade a honda engine with the same problem as the Briggs went through everything like you did. Finally found the problem the rings on the piston were hanging up fixed it and it ran
I have had the intake valve stick because of old fuel. And that is what I was thinking it was. Never thought of the rings being stuck.
I'm 16 minutes in and before I see the whole video I want to say that these engines came with plastic crankshaft gears, if the molded key shears or is installed incorrectly (or melts) the cam timing will change every time you pull the rope. I taught small engine repair for votech and had a student with the same engine and problem. Took me a while to figure it out.
Question : if it's determined that rings are stuck, is there a chance that soaking the cylinder with snake oil, ATF, or something like marvel could remedy the situation? This video was absolutely amazing and I really learned from it. I claim myself as an efficient grass rat, but so many times have been tunnel visioned in the wrong direction. Thank you for sharing the struggle!
The chances are that you’ll free them rings all right. The challenge now is to keep them from getting stuck again. So to prevent this from happening again in the future change the rings or even better piston and rings together. Don’t forget to break in the piston rings as you would do with new engine (5-6 hours run at minimum with first oil change after 1-2 hours)
The mower shop across the street from us has the SAME kind of issues with parts. It's nice that you've shared your struggles with us.
I told my wife after you checked the valves and timing that this engine had a ring issue. I knew you would get there eventually...😉👍
I said the same thing to my wife, she said “Speaking of rings Christmas is coming!” It was then I knew I Fudged Up!
Hey Taryl that was a interesting one.
I'm not a small engine mechanic but have learned a lot in the year i have been watching your videos.
So when the cylinder head heated up and expanded, the engine lost compression and slowly lost power and died because the piston rings were stuck closed around the piston.
Good job showing that to Briggs.
Taryl, it seems like all of these manufacturers are dropping the ball.
I had a nice little Hustler Dash with the junk single cylinder Power Built engine. I knew the crank was eventually going to fail. I sold it and got an older mower
At least the warning label is still available! At $20.99! I love your channel. As a former mechanic, I feel your pain. The world reset hadn't happened yet when I was still employed so I REALLY feel sorry for those still in it!
I’m betting the customer has never changed the air in the tires … good luck getting the engine warranted
Tray did get the engine warrantied from B-S
The engines the problem not the leaf attachment
@@juniorlazaro289 I think it's a joke.... Don't over analyze it.
That's awesome that you figured this problem out, good info for us diy'rs. And those Predator engines usually have really good reviews. I've read many of them on RUclips, I wouldn't hesitate at all to use one on a piece of equipment.
If you think it's hard getting parts from Briggs then you should try getting them from harbor freight
Glad to see Ronnie's involved, of course he's always up to no good, thanks taryal, Jr and slippers , the cousin , and all we all thank you very much
If you're not testing then you're guessing TARYL!!!! Great work. I appreciate your videos. They're full of great information.
The reason one motor had 60psi and other had 80psi is because the 60psi had the compression release working. The motor that had 80psi without a compression release is too low. Should have been 100+ without a compression release. Also, you can tell where the leak is by feeling over the carb, muffler and oil check port to see where the leak is when doing the leak down test.
Oh! That explains the higher compression, which to my mind should have been lower if the rings were stuck into the grooves. I forgot he'd already removed the compression release! Thanks so much for catching that and mentioning it - saved me asking the obvious question.
I love using my leakdown- so useful. Taryl should have remembered about the comp release he took off. It looked like he had low blood sugar or was coming down with something! Or lack of sleep.
Yep he compared the compression between one with a compression release working and the bad engine it was removed should have been over 100,
I just repaired one of the Mow-N-Vacs from the late 90's the other day. It was cream colored and had the engine turned sideways (pull rope was towards the back). Anyway, it had a 5hp Briggs on it. Ended up needing a carb service with new diaphragm and oil change. Would run while cold, but wouldn't start back once hot. Long story short, had to put a new coil, plug. $500 later in parts and labor, it ran like new. Customer questioned if he made the right choice to get the old one repaired instead of buying a new one. I told him the old ones would last a LONG time and new ones are kinda junk. Looks like this video confirms he made the right choice to repair the old one. In old machines, I put Castrol Syntec High Mileage full synthetic oil. Very expensive but lasts a very long time in small machines. Great for people who rarely do oil changes, which is basically everyone under 35.
Stuck rings could have been caused by running it too hard for the first 20 hours. We used an old broken piston ring to clean out the grooves, so they had the correct 2 thou or so clearance... It happened more often with two-stroke motors.
Having just spent 3 years on a breaks and scrappem in my rare spare time, and after a life time repairing and building engines, I was also stumped on this one engine. It had all sorts of broken parts all at the same time, bent valve push rods, valve seats leaking, broken spark module, blown head gasket, gummed up carby worse than ever seen before, and they don't make the carby parts any more. Wiring harness issues, Start decompressor outside of max Crank RPM specs, Bad spark plug, and sheered flywheel keyway all at the same time. Repaired all and it still would not run. Passed all the tests I could think of. It would fire every stroke, but not run. A bit like yours. Got it running last week, turned out the first repair I did to the engine broke again, without it even starting and running and being put to use. That fault turned out to be a sheered flywheel keyway, that put the timing out just a bit, enough to fire every stroke but too much out to let it run. I never thought to recheck a new item just replaced, but that is what it was. Lightening sometimes strikes twice. Now it's the easiest starting engine I own. The mower is years old but has hardly had any use... as it was always in the shop broken with something. Without watching your video past 34 mins, that's my guess as to your problem as well... now, let's see the rest of the video.
Well there you go, very interesting video Tarryl. Wasn't my guess, but something even rarer, that being stuck rings and couldn't suck fuel or compress at higher rpm and probably had a lot of blow by. Similar to when a decompressor spring is too stiff and most of the starting stroke blows air back the wrong way through the carby, so it can't suck enough fuel to start.
It ain't got no gas in it.
Good one
Very nice to see the whole process and problem solving. Thank you.
Love this guy, just a few questions please address them, been working on small engines also, a little while, lol,,, why didn't you check fuel line delivery first ? Also if rings are stuck, wouldn't compression be either very low, or very high ? 80 psi is about normal for that size piston. Seems if fuel delivery was normal, when the muffler was removed and the pull start was engaged , over and over, there would have been either fire thru the exhaust port, or at least backfire? I personally believe this engine suffered from , fuel starvation and a partially sheared flywheel key,, advanced or retarded timing?, please address these questions, I really enjoy this channel, but stuck rings, the psi was too on point to be the reason, exhaust valve was loose as he explained, so good fuel delivery would or should have delivered backfire or severe flooding, please get back, thanks