Sometimes it seems the present time "Digital" Pilots expect the systems of 40 to 50 years ago to be as smart as the present systems... This was a major improvement over what I was flying 10 yrs before! NOT saying THIS implementation is working right, but things were different 50 yrs ago...
It’s not just flight sims. The more critical the function to you and your passengers’ survival,, the more complicated the switchology and the less obvious the indication of whether you got it right. This is a Law of Aircraft Controls, Ergonomic Design.
I own the GTN750 Premium and this is the first plane capable of radio switching from 530 to 750 with In-cockpit WTT mode. This was achieved with this update. Working Title Technology (WTT) makes it kinda like the G1000Nxi. It requires an extra package. Hopefully, other planes will follow such as the steam gauge Caravan. I can't switch radios inside cockpit while in the WTT mode. The autopilot did play better with the GTN 750. I did, I think, get it to work where is automatically pitched at 500 feet. I'll have to fly it again and check it out. At least the altitude capture now works.
Ok I decided to test this out again so been flying a bit this afternoon while looking at that old video again, I guess it actually seems to work more correctly now than it used to as originally the VS button did nothing at all. In any case this works for me, did a few tests. Set your desired altitude, AP and FD itself must be on, click the VS button so the VS letters appear on the display, right click on the small SET button which changes the display to set your desired VS, up or down also shows with arrows, small one does hundreds and large one does thousands. Once set the plane immediately starts to climb or descend, after a few secs it also goes back to the altitude screen showing the altitude you had set, now click the 'arm' button which should then show in the bottom right corner. When you are 1000 feet from your armed altitude it will say 'alert' in the top right and when it reaches the set altitude it levels out and ALT also illuminates on the bendix unit. Can also confirm that if you simply set your altitude, then click the vs button, then right click on the 'set' button to set your desired VS but don't click arm itself it will just keep climbing/descending as per your set vs without stopping at the set altitude, not being armed that makes sense too. It will still 'alert' 1000 feet prior but won't level out. You can still set an altitude and arm it at any time even if climbing/descending already so the order in which yo do things doesn't matter. While doing any of these actions on the altitude unit the 'ALT' won't illuminate on the bendix until it reaches an armed altitude. You can just hit it any time in which case it illuminates and stops wherever altitude you're at and show that altitude on screen and thus interrupting the current climb/descend behaviour. So yeah it may not work as it's supposed to as per manual so certainly not defending the current AP behaviour but it does nevertheless worked perfectly for me when I followed those steps.
@@jonbeckett Yeah just looked at the Carenado manual as well and definitely doesn't match what's in there, no argument there. So I just went full OCD here on trying to find out how the 'real' unit behaves, mission! :-) Started looking for some cockpit photos, then found mooney's for sale and eventually I found one which has this unit still as most have upgraded avionics now. Luckily the listings have details on the plane specs including avionics so there I learned that it's an optional extension to the Bendix Kap 150 known as the King KAS-297B Altitude Preselect / Vertical Speed Select. I eventually found a manual for it and it actually behaves correctly based on that, the auto 500fpm vs after arming a set altitude is definitely not a thing at all in the real unit. Not sure what Carenado was doing there, seems they coded it correctly based on the real behaviour but then got it wrong when documenting it,so their own manual for this part is fundamentally incorrect, if anything needs updating its the manual, not the in sim unit. There are a few things it doesn't do in sim like pressing multiple buttons simultaneously to cancel/reset things but that's easily enough to work around. After all this pedantic me will at least enjoy the plane even more now. :-D.
@@Herbie71 the sim version USED to work correctly. It's broken. It should have an LED that lights up on it too - that's not there either :) (again, it used to light up)
I'm a bit confused. You're saying that the way it works now is not correct, but what is your reference for how it should work? The Carenado documentation, or the Real world documentation? What if the Carenado documentation is incorrect? Or is it just that the documentation and implementation do not match? I would prefer that the implementation match the real world behavior *regardless* of whether the documentation is correct.
@@jonbeckett We don’t have any documentation about how they work IRL. We only have the Carenado documentation. Before we say it’s wrong, let’s find out what the IRL documentation says.
I found the Working Title 530 is still broken from the Marketplace so reverted back to the PMS50 version, the result I found was that I was unable to turn on NAV mode in flight.
In order for nav mode to work, you need to at least be flying a heading to intercept the track. This behavior is correct for most airplanes and autopilot systems. The altitude preselect is all kinds of screwed up however.
Yep - I've been in touch with Carenado about the altitude preselector - the WT GNS530/430 broke it. They are working with Asobo and Working Title on a resolution.
@@jonbeckett It's only arguably an obsession if it is someone debating high frame rates. 30 fps is only half of the frame rate of 1950s TV and not enough. Any video where motion is important shouldn't be below 50fps, and ideally 60.
I had bought this aircraft in the recent Carenado sale and the auto-pilot had worked perfectly for me until this update. Its unfortunate. Hopefully they fix it soon.
Several add-ons have weird vertical AP behaviour (not just a Carenado thing). The annoying thing with Carenado is that they're locked so you can't easily mod in a different cfg for the autopilot.
Hi Jonathan, I ask "Carenado" if they knew about or better still have fixed the AP and VS in the "Carenado M2OR Mooney", this was there answer, "Yes, we had to change the AP logic a bit in order to make it compatible with all the avionics (WT GNS530/430, PMS GTN750, TDS GTN750) With the outer knob, you can increment by 1000ft. With the inner knob, you can increment by 100ft. Right click on the inner knob, will open the VS screen, you can set it the same way. Once VS is selected click on ENG and ARM", personally I still can't make head or tails of it, which means I have paid for a product that still does not work as stated.
The interception work properly. If you read the KFC 150 autopilot manual, it’s says that you need to direct the plane in heading mode to intercept DTK manually, and it will never work when plane is flying parallel to the DTK or with more angle. AP was never meant to do all the work, it is just a very useful tool so you can focus on other things while flying singlehanded. But I am not sure about Nav mode, because from what I read, it should be blinking when armed, and I kinda miss it in comparison to steam cessna 172 when the armed is clearly visible. Made me wonder like you for the first time if something is broken or I am just doing something wrong. Sadly things like that and ALT selector put me in doubt if I should learn from my mistakes in this plane, because maybe I am doing everything right, but the plane is broken. Regarding altitude selector - it’s frustrating. One year later and it still is working like somebody just doesn’t care about a proper functionality. I know it’s not a study level aircraft, but it’s not an excuse for me if it comes to payed product :(
The altitude pre-selectors and NAV tracking with the autopilots don't quite work properly in the Carendo aircraft. Although saying that, each real-world aircraft model has different hardware which could work differently too. It all keeps us on our toes :)
@@jonbeckett By the way, maybe you will know something about that alarm that goes off when I’m on idle while descending? It’s not happening when I’m taxing after start up, and it’s totally new to me. I cannot see any information about it on the alarm panel, it’s just when I’m descending after some time in the air and I set the throttle to idle and the MAP goes below some value, there is a constant alarm and sometimes the engine just shut down. Is it related to fixed pitch propeller? Maybe it must have some power to not shut off when idle and highest rpm? I’m frankly very new to the „blue lever”.
@@JagermeissterThe M20P has a gear warning system that signals an alarm when MP is low and airspeed is above 60 knots (in other words, you're flying and at a low power setting, as if on final descent) but the gear is still up. I suspect the M20R is the same. If you lower the gear or increase MP the tone should stop.
Its funny because they still haven't fixed the altitude option, and infact wheb i try turn on vertical speed it automatically turns itself off too so they even managed to break that too. I hope issues like this doesnt accure in msfs2024 because the vs doesnt work for most of the aircraft you get for free once you get the game
Haven't checked the AP since the update but I do recall being very confused with its AP upon release as it's totally counter intuitive but this video at the time was useful and did work, had it bookmarked ever since. As to whether that matches the actual aircraft IRL I don't know. Again not sure if the AP still behaves the same but you may want to check it out ruclips.net/video/vujlcamv1S4/видео.html
@@jonbeckett Cheers, I'll have to pull the Mooney out of the hangar again and give it another spin, probably the first addon I bought and do still like the plane. Currently we are so spoiled for choice there simply is not enough time to fly them all.
Those words from the Carenado documentation are incorrect if you want a realistic behaviour. Perhaps have a read of a manual or two about how this stuff works IRL. Most of the behaviour seen in this video is correct to the real unit.
As far as I'm aware, the Carendo preselectors don't work like the real units - although they *used* to. The Black Square aircraft work correctly. To be honest, it depends which autopilot is installed.
@@jonbeckett The autopilot model is largely irrelevant. The way all autopilots that have these capabilities work is essentially the same. Select target altitude first, then the method of transition VS, FLC/IAS. The only variable being if you need to manually arm the alt capture or if it does it automatically for you. KAP 140, Stec 55X, this one (KFC 150) and the newer Garmin autopilots are all essentially the same. If you know how they fundamentally function it’s easy. BTW this one happens to use a separate ALT selector KAS 297 but some of them have it build into the main autopilot unit. As someone else mentioned you can find pilots guides online.
ruclips.net/video/ObJ2JtV2ML8/видео.html In this real life video he 1. preselects (dials in) the target altitude (no "arm" yet), then 2. engages VS and 3. sets a climb/descent rate and then 4. switches back to altitude and then 5. eventually arms the target altitude. This works perfectly fine with the Mooney preselector. I agree though, that the documentation from Carenado doesn't fit this procedure. The procedure in the documentation should be supposed to work, too, arming without vertical speed engaged, this is also true. So - as you say in your video, Carenado implemented only half of the functionality.
The documentation is the correct way it should work - it's completely broken in the plane(s) that use it. I've been in touch with Carenado. The GNS530/430 upgrade has caused it. They are working on it.
As a software engineer, I really don't like the constant use of the word "broken". There is "working as intended" or not. "Broken" is a meaningless term.
@@artswri it conveys no useful information. All it means is, it’s not working the way you think it should. It doesn’t mean that it’s not working the way it’s intended.
@@mapolinski At the time I was guessing - but there is history to flight sim updates breaking aspects of multiple aircraft in all sorts of interesting ways.
I found a .pdf which explains how to use the Mooney "Altitude Preselector". Community/carenado-aircraft-m20r-ovation/SimObjects/Airplanes/Carenado_M20R_Ovation/Documentation/Altitude Preselector.pdf
This has the nicest binnacle compass that I have seen in a Carenado aircraft. You can read it!
The first 200 mph plane I ever flown in. Always a fav. Good Video!
Cool, thanks!
My dad had an m20 when i was a kid. Grew up in that plane, and now i can fly a better one. Real and sim its a great plane
The first low-wing plane I ever flew (in real life). It was rock-steady.
Sometimes it seems the present time "Digital" Pilots expect the systems of 40 to 50 years ago to be as smart as the present systems... This was a major improvement over what I was flying 10 yrs before! NOT saying THIS implementation is working right, but things were different 50 yrs ago...
It’s not just flight sims. The more critical the function to you and your passengers’ survival,, the more complicated the switchology and the less obvious the indication of whether you got it right. This is a Law of Aircraft Controls, Ergonomic Design.
Hahahaha
I own the GTN750 Premium and this is the first plane capable of radio switching from 530 to 750 with In-cockpit WTT mode. This was achieved with this update. Working Title Technology (WTT) makes it kinda like the G1000Nxi. It requires an extra package. Hopefully, other planes will follow such as the steam gauge Caravan. I can't switch radios inside cockpit while in the WTT mode. The autopilot did play better with the GTN 750. I did, I think, get it to work where is automatically pitched at 500 feet. I'll have to fly it again and check it out. At least the altitude capture now works.
Do you know if TDS GTN can be set up in cockpit?
Removing the last update of gns 530 from working title makes that autopilot runs perfectly.
Yep.
Nice demo of the bug. Hope it’s resolved soon. What is the flight planning tool that you are using?
Little nav map
Ok I decided to test this out again so been flying a bit this afternoon while looking at that old video again, I guess it actually seems to work more correctly now than it used to as originally the VS button did nothing at all.
In any case this works for me, did a few tests.
Set your desired altitude, AP and FD itself must be on, click the VS button so the VS letters appear on the display, right click on the small SET button which changes the display to set your desired VS, up or down also shows with arrows, small one does hundreds and large one does thousands.
Once set the plane immediately starts to climb or descend, after a few secs it also goes back to the altitude screen showing the altitude you had set, now click the 'arm' button which should then show in the bottom right corner. When you are 1000 feet from your armed altitude it will say 'alert' in the top right and when it reaches the set altitude it levels out and ALT also illuminates on the bendix unit.
Can also confirm that if you simply set your altitude, then click the vs button, then right click on the 'set' button to set your desired VS but don't click arm itself it will just keep climbing/descending as per your set vs without stopping at the set altitude, not being armed that makes sense too. It will still 'alert' 1000 feet prior but won't level out.
You can still set an altitude and arm it at any time even if climbing/descending already so the order in which yo do things doesn't matter.
While doing any of these actions on the altitude unit the 'ALT' won't illuminate on the bendix until it reaches an armed altitude. You can just hit it any time in which case it illuminates and stops wherever altitude you're at and show that altitude on screen and thus interrupting the current climb/descend behaviour.
So yeah it may not work as it's supposed to as per manual so certainly not defending the current AP behaviour but it does nevertheless worked perfectly for me when I followed those steps.
Yep - my issue isn't that it doesn't work at all - it's that it doesn't work as it's supposed to :)
@@jonbeckett Yeah just looked at the Carenado manual as well and definitely doesn't match what's in there, no argument there. So I just went full OCD here on trying to find out how the 'real' unit behaves, mission! :-)
Started looking for some cockpit photos, then found mooney's for sale and eventually I found one which has this unit still as most have upgraded avionics now. Luckily the listings have details on the plane specs including avionics so there I learned that it's an optional extension to the Bendix Kap 150 known as the King KAS-297B Altitude Preselect / Vertical Speed Select. I eventually found a manual for it and it actually behaves correctly based on that, the auto 500fpm vs after arming a set altitude is definitely not a thing at all in the real unit. Not sure what Carenado was doing there, seems they coded it correctly based on the real behaviour but then got it wrong when documenting it,so their own manual for this part is fundamentally incorrect, if anything needs updating its the manual, not the in sim unit. There are a few things it doesn't do in sim like pressing multiple buttons simultaneously to cancel/reset things but that's easily enough to work around.
After all this pedantic me will at least enjoy the plane even more now. :-D.
@@Herbie71 the sim version USED to work correctly. It's broken. It should have an LED that lights up on it too - that's not there either :) (again, it used to light up)
I'm a bit confused. You're saying that the way it works now is not correct, but what is your reference for how it should work? The Carenado documentation, or the Real world documentation?
What if the Carenado documentation is incorrect?
Or is it just that the documentation and implementation do not match? I would prefer that the implementation match the real world behavior *regardless* of whether the documentation is correct.
The way altitude pre-selectors work in the real world :)
@@jonbeckett We don’t have any documentation about how they work IRL. We only have the Carenado documentation.
Before we say it’s wrong, let’s find out what the IRL documentation says.
@@mapolinski You can find the RL AP pubs online...
@@jonbeckett Does it operate as described in the Carenado manuals?
Yep, I'm pretty sure it was screwed up on update 11, before that the Alt armed worked fine. Don't forget the Mooney has spoilers to slow down.
Yeah - I think the Working Title GNS 530 mod has a hand in it too.
I found the Working Title 530 is still broken from the Marketplace so reverted back to the PMS50 version, the result I found was that I was unable to turn on NAV mode in flight.
Good to know.
In order for nav mode to work, you need to at least be flying a heading to intercept the track. This behavior is correct for most airplanes and autopilot systems. The altitude preselect is all kinds of screwed up however.
Yep - I've been in touch with Carenado about the altitude preselector - the WT GNS530/430 broke it. They are working with Asobo and Working Title on a resolution.
Re "MSFS2020 - Carenado Mooney M20R - After 2 years does it still have bugs?" No problems with this AP when used within its limits.
The only problem with the Carenado aircraft is the ones that have altitude preselectors work... very differently :)
Nice graphics it's 4k ? If yes how many FPS do you have with this setting? Thanks
4K downrated to 1080p for RUclips. I limit it to 30fps. I don't understand people obsessing over framerate.
@@jonbeckett It's only arguably an obsession if it is someone debating high frame rates. 30 fps is only half of the frame rate of 1950s TV and not enough. Any video where motion is important shouldn't be below 50fps, and ideally 60.
I had bought this aircraft in the recent Carenado sale and the auto-pilot had worked perfectly for me until this update. Its unfortunate. Hopefully they fix it soon.
Yep - I remember it working. Apparently the Working Title GNS 530 mod is part of the problem.
Several add-ons have weird vertical AP behaviour (not just a Carenado thing).
The annoying thing with Carenado is that they're locked so you can't easily mod in a different cfg for the autopilot.
Erm... as of Sim Update 10 (I think) all the aircraft are unlocked. Just go to the Official package folder.
@@jonbeckett thanks for the heads-up. MSFS has been taking a back seat to rl lately.
Hi Jonathan, I ask "Carenado" if they knew about or better still have fixed the AP and VS in the "Carenado M2OR Mooney", this was there answer, "Yes, we had to change the AP logic a bit in order to make it compatible with all the avionics (WT GNS530/430, PMS GTN750, TDS GTN750)
With the outer knob, you can increment by 1000ft.
With the inner knob, you can increment by 100ft.
Right click on the inner knob, will open the VS screen, you can set it the same way.
Once VS is selected click on ENG and ARM", personally I still can't make head or tails of it, which means I have paid for a product that still does not work as stated.
That's a hack. The Black Square Bonanza has a working altitude pre-selector.
cannot believe it has a flight director
Wondering if this is fixed after the recent avionics update?
I doubt it. The altitude option appears to be completely broken in lots of carenado aircraft. I'll go post on their support forum - see what they say.
I have never bought a Carenado plane that was worth the money. In most cases I just trashed them after experiencing just one flight.
The interception work properly. If you read the KFC 150 autopilot manual, it’s says that you need to direct the plane in heading mode to intercept DTK manually, and it will never work when plane is flying parallel to the DTK or with more angle. AP was never meant to do all the work, it is just a very useful tool so you can focus on other things while flying singlehanded. But I am not sure about Nav mode, because from what I read, it should be blinking when armed, and I kinda miss it in comparison to steam cessna 172 when the armed is clearly visible. Made me wonder like you for the first time if something is broken or I am just doing something wrong. Sadly things like that and ALT selector put me in doubt if I should learn from my mistakes in this plane, because maybe I am doing everything right, but the plane is broken. Regarding altitude selector - it’s frustrating. One year later and it still is working like somebody just doesn’t care about a proper functionality. I know it’s not a study level aircraft, but it’s not an excuse for me if it comes to payed product :(
The altitude pre-selectors and NAV tracking with the autopilots don't quite work properly in the Carendo aircraft. Although saying that, each real-world aircraft model has different hardware which could work differently too. It all keeps us on our toes :)
@@jonbeckett By the way, maybe you will know something about that alarm that goes off when I’m on idle while descending? It’s not happening when I’m taxing after start up, and it’s totally new to me. I cannot see any information about it on the alarm panel, it’s just when I’m descending after some time in the air and I set the throttle to idle and the MAP goes below some value, there is a constant alarm and sometimes the engine just shut down. Is it related to fixed pitch propeller? Maybe it must have some power to not shut off when idle and highest rpm? I’m frankly very new to the „blue lever”.
@@JagermeissterThe M20P has a gear warning system that signals an alarm when MP is low and airspeed is above 60 knots (in other words, you're flying and at a low power setting, as if on final descent) but the gear is still up. I suspect the M20R is the same. If you lower the gear or increase MP the tone should stop.
Its funny because they still haven't fixed the altitude option, and infact wheb i try turn on vertical speed it automatically turns itself off too so they even managed to break that too. I hope issues like this doesnt accure in msfs2024 because the vs doesnt work for most of the aircraft you get for free once you get the game
Haven't checked the AP since the update but I do recall being very confused with its AP upon release as it's totally counter intuitive but this video at the time was useful and did work, had it bookmarked ever since. As to whether that matches the actual aircraft IRL I don't know. Again not sure if the AP still behaves the same but you may want to check it out
ruclips.net/video/vujlcamv1S4/видео.html
Oh, it's broken :) It's a combination of Sim Update 11, and the Working Title 530 mod.
@@jonbeckett Cheers, I'll have to pull the Mooney out of the hangar again and give it another spin, probably the first addon I bought and do still like the plane. Currently we are so spoiled for choice there simply is not enough time to fly them all.
Those words from the Carenado documentation are incorrect if you want a realistic behaviour. Perhaps have a read of a manual or two about how this stuff works IRL. Most of the behaviour seen in this video is correct to the real unit.
As far as I'm aware, the Carendo preselectors don't work like the real units - although they *used* to. The Black Square aircraft work correctly. To be honest, it depends which autopilot is installed.
@@jonbeckett The autopilot model is largely irrelevant. The way all autopilots that have these capabilities work is essentially the same. Select target altitude first, then the method of transition VS, FLC/IAS. The only variable being if you need to manually arm the alt capture or if it does it automatically for you. KAP 140, Stec 55X, this one (KFC 150) and the newer Garmin autopilots are all essentially the same. If you know how they fundamentally function it’s easy. BTW this one happens to use a separate ALT selector KAS 297 but some of them have it build into the main autopilot unit. As someone else mentioned you can find pilots guides online.
just flown the Seneca V from Carenado or Care not do the autopilot is nutty as well since SU 11 but flyable though
Yep.
I do hope the 337 is unharmed
I'll try it out soon :)
ruclips.net/video/ObJ2JtV2ML8/видео.html In this real life video he 1. preselects (dials in) the target altitude (no "arm" yet), then 2. engages VS and 3. sets a climb/descent rate and then 4. switches back to altitude and then 5. eventually arms the target altitude. This works perfectly fine with the Mooney preselector. I agree though, that the documentation from Carenado doesn't fit this procedure. The procedure in the documentation should be supposed to work, too, arming without vertical speed engaged, this is also true. So - as you say in your video, Carenado implemented only half of the functionality.
The documentation is the correct way it should work - it's completely broken in the plane(s) that use it. I've been in touch with Carenado. The GNS530/430 upgrade has caused it. They are working on it.
Carenado seems not to bother about fixing the autopilot. Thats bad. 👎🏻 and such a shame for a great aircraft
They are working on it. It's complex, and doesn't require a fix just from them.
Shadows are soooo bad in this game. WTF Assobo ?
What's wrong with them ?
As a software engineer, I really don't like the constant use of the word "broken". There is "working as intended" or not. "Broken" is a meaningless term.
So if a change to functionality somewhere causes another funtion to not operate correctly, it hasn't "broken" it? (btw I'm a developer too - hi!)
Dunno… broken seems pretty clear to me(!)
@@artswri it conveys no useful information. All it means is, it’s not working the way you think it should. It doesn’t mean that it’s not working the way it’s intended.
@@jonbeckett is that in fact, what happened? Or are you guessing?
@@mapolinski At the time I was guessing - but there is history to flight sim updates breaking aspects of multiple aircraft in all sorts of interesting ways.
I found a .pdf which explains how to use the Mooney "Altitude Preselector". Community/carenado-aircraft-m20r-ovation/SimObjects/Airplanes/Carenado_M20R_Ovation/Documentation/Altitude Preselector.pdf