Yo guys! I've noticed all the traction this video's getting and Ijust wanna thank you guys, not only for the views, but also for staying very respectful in the comments! I am shocked by how nicely you guys are and giving more insight on why Joker won (even though I do get why he won after a day or so, so don't take my thoughts in the vid at pure face value LOL) I still do believe that in some cases Joker should have lost, like how he shouldn't have been able to summon Satanael because it is the masses that give him the power of controlling Satanael for a bit, it's reserved for when the populace is with him (Maruki is a good reason as to why he couldn't get Satanael in the fight) BUT if everything is fair game, then this outcome does make sense. Again thank you guys for the support, regardless of the thoughts we share I hope you enjoyed the video and the Death Battle itself, it was a great showing and stay safe :D
Even if we don’t count Satanael in (although Death Battle allows it anyway), there is still a good amount of Almighty moves like say Morning Star, Megidolaon and Black Viper respectively. Although it would be more hype animation wise to have Satanael in the fight itself soooo
Here's the G1 Blog's conclusion (G1 is made by a group of non-death battle powerscalers, they often make very detailed predictions for upcoming or desired death battles. While not always correct, they're highly respected): Joker (Winner) Advantages: Infinitely stronger regardless of high or low ends Immensely faster at low ends, and can match Giorno’s highest speed argument and surpass it with stat buffs Far more skilled and experienced, and possesses theoretically far greater knowledge via Personas Resists his willpower being returned to zero Has multiple arguments to resist Return to Zero itself, as well as bypassing it completely Possesses strong win conditions even if he lacks resistance to Return to Zero Capable of resisting and escaping the death loop if it lands Has far greater versatility due to his many more hax options Better stamina and recovery options Has experience against reality and time bending opponents Can make himself immune to Giorno and GER’s attacks via skills and the Omnipotent Orb Is probably going to get another 3 spin-offs before Atlus drops Persona 6 Managed to attract the attention of the Goddess of Fertility by simply being that good of a womanizer Actually has a “Jo” in his name Disadvantages: Cannot resist his defense being returned to zero Generally has worse showings of being a tactical fighter by comparison Anime is dogcrap Persona 5 fans don’t play Persona 5 2/14 Girono (Loser) Advantages: Smarter and more tactical Gold Experience Requiem is a very difficult opponent to overcome Could return Joker’s defense to zero… Potentially faster with his high end arguments… Anime is godlike Has the better theme song Disadvantages: Immensely weaker …But Nulls, Omnipotent Orb, and Dekunda can subvert this effect …But Joker can match that speed with his own high ends Has no real way to kill Joker Joker has several win conditions he has no way around, even with Requiem Far less experienced and skilled Cannot return Joker’s will to zero RtZ can be bypassed in a few ways Has no way of resisting the scale of reality warping Cognition has That stupid ass donut ass haircut Bro’s ultimate stand was there for like, 2 minutes Yeah, Giorno literally couldn't win.
It’s kind of funny with you thinking Giorno was going to stomp, because while the casual viewer were uncertain of how it would go, it was near unanimous in the vs community that Joker was the one going to stomp. And on the inverse side, while most Persona fans outside the vs community thought Giorno was going to win; it was the completely opposite perception on the JJBA fandom where they thought Joker was going to win. It’s kind of an interesting juxtaposition of fandoms when you think about it. But in the end, while Giorno and GER is strong in his own verse, he’s absolutely not touching Joker. It would have been even more one sided if Joker had a Persona like Arahabaki which reflects physical damage (which would mean Giorno literally couldn’t touch him).
@@muffetmissulena6540 The research probably thought about Arabhabaki but was as important to include in the analysis and in the fight animation didn't have time to fit him in. Would have been cool to see him though maybe when Yu or Yuki get an episode we will see him.
Here's the thing@@thunfire459 Including Arahabaki in the analysis is basically like saying "hey, here's something that can literally render all the opponent's attacks useless :)" Atp, just tell us Joker wins
Okay before I say this, I don’t mean this in a mean way but as a person who was on Death Battle Sub Reddit and debated for Joker winning this match and saw how the persona and Jojo fans reacted during the lead-up to the episode I just want to say this reaction video is the perfect analogy of how the persona fans thought the matchup was going to go. They thought Joker was going to lose. What makes it funnier is that Jojo fans thought Joker would win Nothing against you, I think your reaction was great. I was just reminded of it and thought it was funny.
I dont keep up with powerscales and all that sorta stuff, I didnt know we were taking into account small details like being able to dodge a morning star means the character is 10000000000 light years/s fast LOL They did raise good points, in some way and I understand the results, but some of the factors like the one I mentioned doesnt feel right to put in as an ability for Joker, idk Thanks for watching, and this is my first time ever doing a death battle sorta thing, so I'm fine with whatever people think
Maybe but i thought that Joker would lose because Giorno has the Return to Zero Ability. tbh it could have gone either way but i feel like Giorno would have had the slight lead. i am not a Persona fan (but i have watched the anime) but i am a big jojo fan. also the spin of game that may not be canon due to it being a combine all jojo fighter game but i dont think that would work.
Joker wins and it isn't even close. These characters aren't even in the same tier. Giorno is completely carried by hax, and his hax are extremely overrated.
GER is indeed a powerful ability, but it’s completely overblown with how strong it actually is. It’s absolutely not the trump card the anime community makes it out to be.
I understand why you're confused bc for some reason they put a lot of the important evidence for why Joker can counter reality warping and pierce reality warping defense in the footnotes.
Anyway Yaldabaoth basically has RTZ (strips the PT of all their will and deletes them, rewrites reality via mementos merge so that all attacks against it are nullified.) And the velvet room + Satanael were able to counter and defeat that.
@@PhantomRAQ50And don’t forget, even if Satanael is not allowed in the fight there is still moves like Black Viper, Megidolaon and Morning Star for almighty moves. And also how the Lucifer Morning Star speed feat should be at least a bit more higher with Heat Riser on, which not only buffs Joker’s speed, but also his attack and defense.
as a fan of both series, it was pretty obvious that joker was going to win. I knew that the dubiously non-canon eyes of heaven reality warper negation feat was going to be used to negate GER, so it felt pretty obvious. The only way I thought of that they could've potentially had giorno win was using his stand stats, which GER is stated to have a none in all stats as it is so immeasurably powerful that it cannot be measured on the same scale as other stands(including stands with infinite speed, durability, attack power) to wank giorno's stats, but I figured that they wouldn't use it since it's so vague and we never see GER do anything like it, that is until the bardock vs omniman video came out and the sundisk feat was used and I thought that they might seriously use it
they also brought in stuff from shin megami tensei which its been stated that its canon that shin is part of the persona universe which the lore in those games can get insane along with the villians and that is putting it lightly according to what ive seen and lets put it like this G.E.R bends reality to bring back time that was erased when he went up agaisnt diavolo thats the same thing as the omnipotent orb which can "bend the laws of the universe" to avoid any damage except almighty which he has plenty of personas that can use almighty and in the black box with the eyes of heaven segement they said it was written by the original author and the only reason they brought it up was to get more context with G.E.R
Ahh I see, yeah I didnt know they gave Joker omnipotent orb, thought it was gonna be somewhat of a balanced fight LOL And yeah the SMT stuff on top of that add even more power to Joker I appreciate adding more context :)
@@VieuxCroutonCrumbs Death Battle gives the fighters their strongest versions from their canon/canon adjacent. So they usually give them the most broken equipment, skills and attacks they have. Sometimes the severely nerf the winners because if they give them all their broken stuff it's going to be overkill.
I mean throughout the waiting period I saw people put Joker as high as outerversal and 7D with immeasurable speed to country or even as low as building level. I don’t blame him for being confused since powerscaling is niche and usually interpretive.
Fire emblem fans were the same way with Dimetri vs Guts. What's up with that? FE fans are still struggling with the idea Dimertri is anywhere above peak human (which he most definitely is)
@@KEEPTALKIN8215 Because power scaling is niche and most people don’t think about scaling. If you tell someone that Joker can survive a universe exploding because of a weird burger attack in the game. they will probably think your crazy.
It's mostly JRPG fans that powerscale their characters lower because most of them only use direct feats that are shown in cutscenes and don't use the things in gameplay like the dialogue, stats and equipment since it's mostly player choice.
As someone that like persona and is a massive jojo fan even i knew joker win just cause he has so many couters to GER while giorno doesn't have the speed or the strength to permanently put down joker for good
even if some people disagree with the result of the match-up. The whole debate leading up to the episode was messy in the first place, which was why everyone was trying to hone their expectation because really this debate is heavily "up to interpretation" and its just that after seeing the data, many people agreed that Joker would win. It's also funny how despite the result of the matchup, the reaction was pretty tame from both the persona and jojo fandoms and not as controversial as people thought (except for a few jojo fans).
For real. The response to this episode was actually pretty supportive (a lot of people were already leaning on Joker to begin with). Omnidock had way bigger backlash (understandably too).
Even without Almighty attacks, Joker can do things like use mental ailments (which wouldn’t activate GER’s RtZ) to bypass the use of the Stand through the Forget status, use an insta-kill spell, or literally just convince GER to come over to his side. In other Persona media actual Personas have been stolen before and Joker’s Sun Confidant line outright compares his charisma to mind control (with the ability to instantly recruit Personas). Giorno still has to hit Joker to activate the death loop, which isn’t happening with the Omnipotent Orb and Personas that passively nullify physical attacks. Joker held all of the cards here, and that isn’t even getting into how monstrous his stats can actually get. In Catherine (which is canon to the Persona series) he was able to affect Ishtar, who sees the game world as fiction and physically interacts with the player.
This is why fans of the JoJo series won't understand that there is a way to bypass giorno's absolute zero technique just by Joker remembering that he has actual friends and he needs to kick giorno's a** using a by using a technique that bypasses anything that negates damage and that is the almighty damage and that is something that was able to pass by the omnipotent orb very similar to Gionino's g e r experience🔥🔥 it's all Joker needed to land the finishing blow with sinful shell🔥🔥
I think those guys fundamentally don't understand what Cause and Effect is. Reality obeys the laws of causality. Reality warping power is subservient and beneath manipulation of causality. Example; I use a reality warping ability to create an infinite attack damage weapon to kill Giorno. Giorno uses his power to disassociate cause from effect. My infinite damage weapon no longer exists because I never performed the action to create it in the first place. See? Joker can have all Phantom Thieves he's getting nodiffed. They literally needed Igor and Lavenza's help to just survive Yaldabaoth reality warping based on perception. Giorno obliterates them. Giorno was able *to undo an erased timeline while not even being conscious of it being erased.*
Argument for Joker resisting GER #1: Omnipotent Orb A popular argument for Joker resisting Return to Zero has always been the Omnipotent Orb, with it nulling all attacks - however, the Japanese raws give this item much more power then you would initially think. Its description on said raws says that it is a “ball that grants you the will to determine the world’s logic.” Obviously, this kind of power is something that Giorno has never had to deal with, and law manipulation on this scale being used defensively would make Joker practically untouchable to him, even with Return to Zero. However, that’s not all that this description provides for Joker. Despite it granting this insane defensive utility, Almighty Attacks can still bypass the orb’s effects, making it reasonable that they could bypass GER, considering they’re able to affect beings who can control and remove themselves from the world’s logic. As a result of this, it’s likely that the Omnipotent Orb makes Joker untouchable, and any of his Almighty attacks could do the trick to defeat Requiem. Argument for Joker resisting GER #2: Trickster Physiology Next of all, Joker’s nature as the Trickster could likely give him resistances to Requiem. As the Trickster, Joker naturally defies his own and the fates of others around him - this is well established several times throughout Persona 5, to the point some descriptions of Joker straight up say he has a knack for changing fate, and his fate altering powers changing the fate of Ishtar, a goddess who views him and his world as a fictional story. This is, frankly, an absurd level of fate manipulation and resistance to fate manipulation for Joker. However, how is this relevant to this matchup? Simple. The death loop. Requiem putting you in the death loop on contact likely involves some degree of fate manipulation to ensure the first death, as shown with Diavolo. It was his fate to never reach the truth, and so he died at the hands of that mugger - it’s the only explanation that makes said scene make any real sense. However, with Joker’s own resistances to fate manipulation, it’s unlikely such a trick would work on him, and as such, even if hit by Requiem, it’s unlikely the death loop would be able to properly start on Joker, as there’s no real way for Giorno to ensure his death to begin with, especially given interfering with Joker is more likely to change Giorno’s own fate then for Giorno to be able to change Joker’s fate. Argument for Joker resisting GER #3: Chronos The final boss of Persona Q is the God of Time, Chronos - and befitting his nature, he has several time manipulating abilities. The most pertinent of these to this debate, however, is his ability to reverse time. Notably, when he uses this attack, despite the background and himself being affected, the party is not. As Persona users gain their resistances from their power and not innately for the most part, and anyone in the P3/4 crew resists this ability, Joker would have a similar resistance. Against Return to Zero, this is a game changer. Reversing time is comparable to Requiem’s ability, after all - and Joker resists that. You could argue, from there, that Return to Zero wouldn’t do anything against Joker, as its main function is something Joker has resisted entirely. Though this isn’t entirely solid, as Return to Zero is more of a cause and effect removal rather than direct time reversion. Argument for Joker resisting GER #4: Yaldabaoth Against Yaldabaoth, Joker was able to reclaim his own existence despite him being erased from cognition itself, which would both destroy his existence and erase him from the history of the world - and despite this, he along with the other Phantom Thieves were able to come back from having all their actions in time erased completely. Considering Joker was able to come back from this level of messing with his time and history, and the fact Yaldabaoth was unable to try this on him again, it’s unlikely that Return to Zero, with this in mind, could actually do anything to him. Now, people may counter-argue this with the fact that Joker was able to fall victim to Enlil and Maruki’s similar abilities, but this isn’t an anti-feat for Joker. When he fought Enlil, he was massively weakened, not even having the Wild Card, and when Enlil tried to erase Joker from cognition, it just… didn’t work. Meanwhile, Maruki is stronger than Joker, and Joker had lost his peak he had gained with Satanael, having given said power to Maruki - this moreso shows the potency of Maruki’s hax rather than an anti-feat for Joker’s resistances. Especially given his other direct feats of resisting or nullifying cognition, such as the fight against Yaldabaoth when he negated his Rays of Control. Argument for Joker resisting GER #5: Cogs of Fate Joker’s arguments for resisting fate manipulation aren’t limited to just Trickster arguments. Within Tactica, there’s an attack the final boss, Salmael - who’s noted as having fate manipulation capabilities strong enough to affect the Velvet Room - can use, named Cogs of Fate. And naturally, Erina shows resistances to the capabilities of these cogs within a cutscene. As Erina is a weaker Phantom Thief then Joker and this story also has Joker immensely weakened in comparison to any other point in Persona, Joker resisting fate manipulation and thus being unable to be affected by the death loop is likely. And there you have it. Joker has not one, but five arguments for resisting Return to Zero or the death loop by himself. Even if you don’t buy one of them, you’d have to debunk every single one for Giorno to win here. However, what about Joker’s own win conditions? Well, if he resists Return to Zero by itself, he could shoot Giorno… but, that’s really boring. Let’s go over Joker’s win conditions. Win Condition #1: Almighty Attacks/Omnipotent Orb As discussed in the Omnipotent Orb section, Almighty Attacks can bypass the Orb’s ability to change the laws of the world to protect the holder. This should allow it to bypass Return to Zero and be able to hit Giorno directly, nuking him on the spot, especially given the existence erasure properties of Megidolaon. The Omnipotent Orb itself being able to control the logic of the world could also allow for Joker to use said power offensively against Joker to break through Requiem. Win Condition #2: Cognition Within Persona 5’s climax, the public puts their faith in the Phantom Thieves, making them - and by extension, Joker himself , the new rulers of Mementos, giving them the impressive cognitive powers both Yaldabaoth and Maruki were able to tap into at their peaks. As a result of this, Joker’s Sinful Shell, made from the collective desire of the people, could likely overpower Return to Zero due to the cognition of the people powering it - Giorno has never resisted such a power and has anti showings against such forms of reality warping, as per Eyes of Heaven, meaning that it’s unlikely he could stop the Sinful Shell at all, its potency being a major factor in this. Sinful Shell was able to one-shot Yaldabaoth, the God of Control and e being made from the cognition of the people desiring a ruler - and yet, Sinful Shell destroyed him utterly. In addition, Joker is drawing upon the same power as Yaldabaoth and Maruki - i.e., the entire Collective Unconscious. Suffice it to say, Giorno has not dealt with a reality warping attack coming from a 7D source of power, and especially given Requiem’s showings against reality warping on a far less level, it’s not a great sign for him. Win Condition #3: Mental Ailments As a JRPG protagonist, Joker has access to several mental ailments, a few of which have interesting properties in a fight against Giorno - namely, Makajamaon allowing him to use Forget, which would apply power nullification to Giorno, making him and GER forget how to use its abilities entirely and bypassing any resistances to mindhax they may have. In addition, Abysmal Words would apply Despair to Giorno, which would both nullify his ability to use Requiem and would kill him after some time, making it impossible for him to do anything. Joker’s mindhax is also extremely powerful, as they’re able to affect Personas, despite the fact they and the Persona User’s Will of Rebellion can even defend them when the user’s mind has been stolen from them, meaning any resistance GER could potentially had would be ineffective against the potency of the hax. Win Condition #4: Death Manipulation As a JRPG protagonist, Joker also has a plethora of instant death spells. Return to Zero Interacting with this is odd, because these attacks would kill Giorno or GER instantly. It’s an odd situation, but with GER having not interacted with such an ability or situation before, it’s hard to concretely say Giorno would be able to return his death to zero instantly. Win Condition #5: Nice Requiem, Can I Have It? Joker has shown the ability to turn Shadows into Personas and seal them into his mask. It’s also been shown in other Persona material that Personas can be stolen by other Persona users using methods similar to this - therefore, you could theoretically argue Joker could take Requiem for himself and from there leave Giorno utterly defenseless.
Abou the whole Joker being millions of times faster than light thing, they literally acknowledged in the video that since GER can act independently of time, Joker's speed didn't mean anything against it.
I ALSO am a Persona Fan BUT even I too am surprised of The result. I know The World of Personas & Shadows is Its own insanity BUT hearing Jojo World’s own insanity, I was intimidated and believed that Giorno would Win…BUT I Wanted to still support Joker cause He’s MY Boi in This Fight…THUS MY Surprise of The Result… …BUT with certain reasons I actually agreed with DB (most ESPECIALLY His Confidants recharging His Will) and most importantly, certain reliable sources that say WHY This was correct & that a Majority of BOTH (non-Toxic) Persona Fans AND (non-Toxic) Jojo Fans agreed on This, This is One of The Moments wherein I’m actually Happy I am wrong about something…MY BOI LEGIT WON THIS!!!🎭😎🥰 Excitement aside, NOT sure This would be make it to MY Top10Fave DB’s of This Season cause I don’t think Sprites do Justice in doing How Awesome This Battle would be🤔
I agree the animation (while great for the most part) could have been better, with more sprites and all that specifically. And yeah know that Jojo's already stupidly strong stands could be beaten by Persona characters was quite a shock, I think that was pretty clear from my reaction LOL! And they did manage to bring a lot to back this, and I do understand why Joker won I'm glad you enjoyed the battle and had level-headed convos with other people in the community, it seems to be a welcoming one, which is good to see :)
@@VieuxCroutonCrumbs Jojo isn’t really strong when I comes to stats Haxes is an different story. The way I would describe Joker vs Giorno is this. Giorno's haxes are strong but Joker’s hax resist are even stronger.
It's weird that veteran Persona fans think Giorno was going to win and as a JoJo's fan I knew that Joker was going to win. It's just that. Bro, all the Persona protagonists at the end of the games are cheated (sad about Yuki, it destroyed me) but bro they literally leave with all-powerful powers. I love Persona and I ADORE Jojos that I literally can't think of anything that isn't a Jojo reference but it's just that with what I saw in Persona 3 and 4 I already imagined the victory. Anyway, I loved the death battle, it was on another level. And it's cinema.
Maruki: -has an ability that's almost exactly the same as GER, gets beat by Joker- And yet... you think Giorno should have won? :v Joker's abilities as a wild card are literally defying fate and rebelling against those who try to control him. It's literally "the power to say 'NO'" vs "the power to say 'YES' to people with the power to say 'NO'".
I wasn't upset, I was more so shocked and weirded out that I was wrong, Jojo characters are stupid strong and seeing that shattered was unreal. And what does it have to do with me being a Persona fan? LOL And dont be hurt by my thoughts pwease :(
Yo guys! I've noticed all the traction this video's getting and Ijust wanna thank you guys, not only for the views, but also for staying very respectful in the comments!
I am shocked by how nicely you guys are and giving more insight on why Joker won (even though I do get why he won after a day or so, so don't take my thoughts in the vid at pure face value LOL)
I still do believe that in some cases Joker should have lost, like how he shouldn't have been able to summon Satanael because it is the masses that give him the power of controlling Satanael for a bit, it's reserved for when the populace is with him (Maruki is a good reason as to why he couldn't get Satanael in the fight) BUT if everything is fair game, then this outcome does make sense.
Again thank you guys for the support, regardless of the thoughts we share I hope you enjoyed the video and the Death Battle itself, it was a great showing and stay safe :D
Even if we don’t count Satanael in (although Death Battle allows it anyway), there is still a good amount of Almighty moves like say Morning Star, Megidolaon and Black Viper respectively. Although it would be more hype animation wise to have Satanael in the fight itself soooo
Here's the G1 Blog's conclusion (G1 is made by a group of non-death battle powerscalers, they often make very detailed predictions for upcoming or desired death battles. While not always correct, they're highly respected):
Joker (Winner)
Advantages:
Infinitely stronger regardless of high or low ends
Immensely faster at low ends, and can match Giorno’s highest speed argument and surpass it with stat buffs
Far more skilled and experienced, and possesses theoretically far greater knowledge via Personas
Resists his willpower being returned to zero
Has multiple arguments to resist Return to Zero itself, as well as bypassing it completely
Possesses strong win conditions even if he lacks resistance to Return to Zero
Capable of resisting and escaping the death loop if it lands
Has far greater versatility due to his many more hax options
Better stamina and recovery options
Has experience against reality and time bending opponents
Can make himself immune to Giorno and GER’s attacks via skills and the Omnipotent Orb
Is probably going to get another 3 spin-offs before Atlus drops Persona 6
Managed to attract the attention of the Goddess of Fertility by simply being that good of a womanizer
Actually has a “Jo” in his name
Disadvantages:
Cannot resist his defense being returned to zero
Generally has worse showings of being a tactical fighter by comparison
Anime is dogcrap
Persona 5 fans don’t play Persona 5
2/14
Girono (Loser)
Advantages:
Smarter and more tactical
Gold Experience Requiem is a very difficult opponent to overcome
Could return Joker’s defense to zero…
Potentially faster with his high end arguments…
Anime is godlike
Has the better theme song
Disadvantages:
Immensely weaker
…But Nulls, Omnipotent Orb, and Dekunda can subvert this effect
…But Joker can match that speed with his own high ends
Has no real way to kill Joker
Joker has several win conditions he has no way around, even with Requiem
Far less experienced and skilled
Cannot return Joker’s will to zero
RtZ can be bypassed in a few ways
Has no way of resisting the scale of reality warping Cognition has
That stupid ass donut ass haircut
Bro’s ultimate stand was there for like, 2 minutes
Yeah, Giorno literally couldn't win.
Giorno loses?! Cap, he has the better anime AND theme song, that's gotta put him at 10d atleast!
It’s kind of funny with you thinking Giorno was going to stomp, because while the casual viewer were uncertain of how it would go, it was near unanimous in the vs community that Joker was the one going to stomp.
And on the inverse side, while most Persona fans outside the vs community thought Giorno was going to win; it was the completely opposite perception on the JJBA fandom where they thought Joker was going to win. It’s kind of an interesting juxtaposition of fandoms when you think about it.
But in the end, while Giorno and GER is strong in his own verse, he’s absolutely not touching Joker. It would have been even more one sided if Joker had a Persona like Arahabaki which reflects physical damage (which would mean Giorno literally couldn’t touch him).
@@muffetmissulena6540 The research probably thought about Arabhabaki but was as important to include in the analysis and in the fight animation didn't have time to fit him in. Would have been cool to see him though maybe when Yu or Yuki get an episode we will see him.
Here's the thing@@thunfire459
Including Arahabaki in the analysis is basically like saying "hey, here's something that can literally render all the opponent's attacks useless :)"
Atp, just tell us Joker wins
Okay before I say this, I don’t mean this in a mean way but as a person who was on Death Battle Sub Reddit and debated for Joker winning this match and saw how the persona and Jojo fans reacted during the lead-up to the episode
I just want to say this reaction video is the perfect analogy of how the persona fans thought the matchup was going to go. They thought Joker was going to lose.
What makes it funnier is that Jojo fans thought Joker would win
Nothing against you, I think your reaction was great. I was just reminded of it and thought it was funny.
LMAO
I dont keep up with powerscales and all that sorta stuff, I didnt know we were taking into account small details like being able to dodge a morning star means the character is 10000000000 light years/s fast LOL
They did raise good points, in some way and I understand the results, but some of the factors like the one I mentioned doesnt feel right to put in as an ability for Joker, idk
Thanks for watching, and this is my first time ever doing a death battle sorta thing, so I'm fine with whatever people think
Maybe but i thought that Joker would lose because Giorno has the Return to Zero Ability. tbh it could have gone either way but i feel like Giorno would have had the slight lead. i am not a Persona fan (but i have watched the anime) but i am a big jojo fan. also the spin of game that may not be canon due to it being a combine all jojo fighter game but i dont think that would work.
@@Goldrex434 May god bless your soul if you watched the P5 anime LMAO (I did)
Joker wins and it isn't even close. These characters aren't even in the same tier. Giorno is completely carried by hax, and his hax are extremely overrated.
GER is indeed a powerful ability, but it’s completely overblown with how strong it actually is. It’s absolutely not the trump card the anime community makes it out to be.
They should’ve used Gappy at least 😭
@@wonderofu230
Joker: For my special ability, here's a bullet the size of a house
The 4-balled Gappster in the Sailor Outfit: BUBBLES GO BRRR
I understand why you're confused bc for some reason they put a lot of the important evidence for why Joker can counter reality warping and pierce reality warping defense in the footnotes.
Anyway Yaldabaoth basically has RTZ (strips the PT of all their will and deletes them, rewrites reality via mementos merge so that all attacks against it are nullified.) And the velvet room + Satanael were able to counter and defeat that.
@@PhantomRAQ50And don’t forget, even if Satanael is not allowed in the fight there is still moves like Black Viper, Megidolaon and Morning Star for almighty moves. And also how the Lucifer Morning Star speed feat should be at least a bit more higher with Heat Riser on, which not only buffs Joker’s speed, but also his attack and defense.
as a fan of both series, it was pretty obvious that joker was going to win. I knew that the dubiously non-canon eyes of heaven reality warper negation feat was going to be used to negate GER, so it felt pretty obvious. The only way I thought of that they could've potentially had giorno win was using his stand stats, which GER is stated to have a none in all stats as it is so immeasurably powerful that it cannot be measured on the same scale as other stands(including stands with infinite speed, durability, attack power) to wank giorno's stats, but I figured that they wouldn't use it since it's so vague and we never see GER do anything like it, that is until the bardock vs omniman video came out and the sundisk feat was used and I thought that they might seriously use it
they also brought in stuff from shin megami tensei which its been stated that its canon that shin is part of the persona universe which the lore in those games can get insane along with the villians and that is putting it lightly according to what ive seen and lets put it like this G.E.R bends reality to bring back time that was erased when he went up agaisnt diavolo thats the same thing as the omnipotent orb which can "bend the laws of the universe" to avoid any damage except almighty which he has plenty of personas that can use almighty and in the black box with the eyes of heaven segement they said it was written by the original author and the only reason they brought it up was to get more context with G.E.R
Ahh I see, yeah I didnt know they gave Joker omnipotent orb, thought it was gonna be somewhat of a balanced fight LOL
And yeah the SMT stuff on top of that add even more power to Joker
I appreciate adding more context :)
They even gave joker stuff from DEVIL SUMMONER
@@VieuxCroutonCrumbs Death Battle gives the fighters their strongest versions from their canon/canon adjacent. So they usually give them the most broken equipment, skills and attacks they have. Sometimes the severely nerf the winners because if they give them all their broken stuff it's going to be overkill.
Persona fan realizing their Verse is powerful 😂
I mean throughout the waiting period I saw people put Joker as high as outerversal and 7D with immeasurable speed to country or even as low as building level.
I don’t blame him for being confused since powerscaling is niche and usually interpretive.
@@thunfire459 high outerversal 7D? that doesnt even make sense, a 1-A cant be 7D.
Fire emblem fans were the same way with Dimetri vs Guts. What's up with that? FE fans are still struggling with the idea Dimertri is anywhere above peak human (which he most definitely is)
@@KEEPTALKIN8215 Because power scaling is niche and most people don’t think about scaling. If you tell someone that Joker can survive a universe exploding because of a weird burger attack in the game. they will probably think your crazy.
It's mostly JRPG fans that powerscale their characters lower because most of them only use direct feats that are shown in cutscenes and don't use the things in gameplay like the dialogue, stats and equipment since it's mostly player choice.
As someone that like persona and is a massive jojo fan even i knew joker win just cause he has so many couters to GER while giorno doesn't have the speed or the strength to permanently put down joker for good
even if some people disagree with the result of the match-up. The whole debate leading up to the episode was messy in the first place, which was why everyone was trying to hone their expectation because really this debate is heavily "up to interpretation" and its just that after seeing the data, many people agreed that Joker would win. It's also funny how despite the result of the matchup, the reaction was pretty tame from both the persona and jojo fandoms and not as controversial as people thought (except for a few jojo fans).
For real. The response to this episode was actually pretty supportive (a lot of people were already leaning on Joker to begin with). Omnidock had way bigger backlash (understandably too).
@@PikachuPikahue Most of the Jojo fans that disagreed and toxic about it were on RUclips, didn’t really see any toxicity on Twitter or Reddit.
Persona is still connected to SMT that means some of the persona's have outerversal scaling Giorno doesn't have a victory condition
you never see it coming
Even without Almighty attacks, Joker can do things like use mental ailments (which wouldn’t activate GER’s RtZ) to bypass the use of the Stand through the Forget status, use an insta-kill spell, or literally just convince GER to come over to his side. In other Persona media actual Personas have been stolen before and Joker’s Sun Confidant line outright compares his charisma to mind control (with the ability to instantly recruit Personas).
Giorno still has to hit Joker to activate the death loop, which isn’t happening with the Omnipotent Orb and Personas that passively nullify physical attacks.
Joker held all of the cards here, and that isn’t even getting into how monstrous his stats can actually get. In Catherine (which is canon to the Persona series) he was able to affect Ishtar, who sees the game world as fiction and physically interacts with the player.
This is why fans of the JoJo series won't understand that there is a way to bypass giorno's absolute zero technique just by Joker remembering that he has actual friends and he needs to kick giorno's a** using a by using a technique that bypasses anything that negates damage and that is the almighty damage and that is something that was able to pass by the omnipotent orb very similar to Gionino's g e r experience🔥🔥 it's all Joker needed to land the finishing blow with sinful shell🔥🔥
I think those guys fundamentally don't understand what Cause and Effect is.
Reality obeys the laws of causality. Reality warping power is subservient and beneath manipulation of causality.
Example; I use a reality warping ability to create an infinite attack damage weapon to kill Giorno. Giorno uses his power to disassociate cause from effect. My infinite damage weapon no longer exists because I never performed the action to create it in the first place. See?
Joker can have all Phantom Thieves he's getting nodiffed. They literally needed Igor and Lavenza's help to just survive Yaldabaoth reality warping based on perception. Giorno obliterates them.
Giorno was able *to undo an erased timeline while not even being conscious of it being erased.*
Argument for Joker resisting GER #1: Omnipotent Orb
A popular argument for Joker resisting Return to Zero has always been the Omnipotent Orb, with it nulling all attacks - however, the Japanese raws give this item much more power then you would initially think. Its description on said raws says that it is a “ball that grants you the will to determine the world’s logic.”
Obviously, this kind of power is something that Giorno has never had to deal with, and law manipulation on this scale being used defensively would make Joker practically untouchable to him, even with Return to Zero. However, that’s not all that this description provides for Joker.
Despite it granting this insane defensive utility, Almighty Attacks can still bypass the orb’s effects, making it reasonable that they could bypass GER, considering they’re able to affect beings who can control and remove themselves from the world’s logic.
As a result of this, it’s likely that the Omnipotent Orb makes Joker untouchable, and any of his Almighty attacks could do the trick to defeat Requiem.
Argument for Joker resisting GER #2: Trickster Physiology
Next of all, Joker’s nature as the Trickster could likely give him resistances to Requiem.
As the Trickster, Joker naturally defies his own and the fates of others around him - this is well established several times throughout Persona 5, to the point some descriptions of Joker straight up say he has a knack for changing fate, and his fate altering powers changing the fate of Ishtar, a goddess who views him and his world as a fictional story. This is, frankly, an absurd level of fate manipulation and resistance to fate manipulation for Joker. However, how is this relevant to this matchup?
Simple. The death loop.
Requiem putting you in the death loop on contact likely involves some degree of fate manipulation to ensure the first death, as shown with Diavolo. It was his fate to never reach the truth, and so he died at the hands of that mugger - it’s the only explanation that makes said scene make any real sense.
However, with Joker’s own resistances to fate manipulation, it’s unlikely such a trick would work on him, and as such, even if hit by Requiem, it’s unlikely the death loop would be able to properly start on Joker, as there’s no real way for Giorno to ensure his death to begin with, especially given interfering with Joker is more likely to change Giorno’s own fate then for Giorno to be able to change Joker’s fate.
Argument for Joker resisting GER #3: Chronos
The final boss of Persona Q is the God of Time, Chronos - and befitting his nature, he has several time manipulating abilities. The most pertinent of these to this debate, however, is his ability to reverse time. Notably, when he uses this attack, despite the background and himself being affected, the party is not. As Persona users gain their resistances from their power and not innately for the most part, and anyone in the P3/4 crew resists this ability, Joker would have a similar resistance.
Against Return to Zero, this is a game changer. Reversing time is comparable to Requiem’s ability, after all - and Joker resists that. You could argue, from there, that Return to Zero wouldn’t do anything against Joker, as its main function is something Joker has resisted entirely. Though this isn’t entirely solid, as Return to Zero is more of a cause and effect removal rather than direct time reversion.
Argument for Joker resisting GER #4: Yaldabaoth
Against Yaldabaoth, Joker was able to reclaim his own existence despite him being erased from cognition itself, which would both destroy his existence and erase him from the history of the world - and despite this, he along with the other Phantom Thieves were able to come back from having all their actions in time erased completely.
Considering Joker was able to come back from this level of messing with his time and history, and the fact Yaldabaoth was unable to try this on him again, it’s unlikely that Return to Zero, with this in mind, could actually do anything to him.
Now, people may counter-argue this with the fact that Joker was able to fall victim to Enlil and Maruki’s similar abilities, but this isn’t an anti-feat for Joker. When he fought Enlil, he was massively weakened, not even having the Wild Card, and when Enlil tried to erase Joker from cognition, it just… didn’t work. Meanwhile, Maruki is stronger than Joker, and Joker had lost his peak he had gained with Satanael, having given said power to Maruki - this moreso shows the potency of Maruki’s hax rather than an anti-feat for Joker’s resistances. Especially given his other direct feats of resisting or nullifying cognition, such as the fight against Yaldabaoth when he negated his Rays of Control.
Argument for Joker resisting GER #5: Cogs of Fate
Joker’s arguments for resisting fate manipulation aren’t limited to just Trickster arguments. Within Tactica, there’s an attack the final boss, Salmael - who’s noted as having fate manipulation capabilities strong enough to affect the Velvet Room - can use, named Cogs of Fate. And naturally, Erina shows resistances to the capabilities of these cogs within a cutscene. As Erina is a weaker Phantom Thief then Joker and this story also has Joker immensely weakened in comparison to any other point in Persona, Joker resisting fate manipulation and thus being unable to be affected by the death loop is likely.
And there you have it. Joker has not one, but five arguments for resisting Return to Zero or the death loop by himself. Even if you don’t buy one of them, you’d have to debunk every single one for Giorno to win here. However, what about Joker’s own win conditions? Well, if he resists Return to Zero by itself, he could shoot Giorno… but, that’s really boring. Let’s go over Joker’s win conditions.
Win Condition #1: Almighty Attacks/Omnipotent Orb
As discussed in the Omnipotent Orb section, Almighty Attacks can bypass the Orb’s ability to change the laws of the world to protect the holder. This should allow it to bypass Return to Zero and be able to hit Giorno directly, nuking him on the spot, especially given the existence erasure properties of Megidolaon. The Omnipotent Orb itself being able to control the logic of the world could also allow for Joker to use said power offensively against Joker to break through Requiem.
Win Condition #2: Cognition
Within Persona 5’s climax, the public puts their faith in the Phantom Thieves, making them - and by extension, Joker himself , the new rulers of Mementos, giving them the impressive cognitive powers both Yaldabaoth and Maruki were able to tap into at their peaks. As a result of this, Joker’s Sinful Shell, made from the collective desire of the people, could likely overpower Return to Zero due to the cognition of the people powering it - Giorno has never resisted such a power and has anti showings against such forms of reality warping, as per Eyes of Heaven, meaning that it’s unlikely he could stop the Sinful Shell at all, its potency being a major factor in this. Sinful Shell was able to one-shot Yaldabaoth, the God of Control and e being made from the cognition of the people desiring a ruler - and yet, Sinful Shell destroyed him utterly. In addition, Joker is drawing upon the same power as Yaldabaoth and Maruki - i.e., the entire Collective Unconscious. Suffice it to say, Giorno has not dealt with a reality warping attack coming from a 7D source of power, and especially given Requiem’s showings against reality warping on a far less level, it’s not a great sign for him.
Win Condition #3: Mental Ailments
As a JRPG protagonist, Joker has access to several mental ailments, a few of which have interesting properties in a fight against Giorno - namely, Makajamaon allowing him to use Forget, which would apply power nullification to Giorno, making him and GER forget how to use its abilities entirely and bypassing any resistances to mindhax they may have. In addition, Abysmal Words would apply Despair to Giorno, which would both nullify his ability to use Requiem and would kill him after some time, making it impossible for him to do anything.
Joker’s mindhax is also extremely powerful, as they’re able to affect Personas, despite the fact they and the Persona User’s Will of Rebellion can even defend them when the user’s mind has been stolen from them, meaning any resistance GER could potentially had would be ineffective against the potency of the hax.
Win Condition #4: Death Manipulation
As a JRPG protagonist, Joker also has a plethora of instant death spells. Return to Zero Interacting with this is odd, because these attacks would kill Giorno or GER instantly. It’s an odd situation, but with GER having not interacted with such an ability or situation before, it’s hard to concretely say Giorno would be able to return his death to zero instantly.
Win Condition #5: Nice Requiem, Can I Have It?
Joker has shown the ability to turn Shadows into Personas and seal them into his mask. It’s also been shown in other Persona material that Personas can be stolen by other Persona users using methods similar to this - therefore, you could theoretically argue Joker could take Requiem for himself and from there leave Giorno utterly defenseless.
Abou the whole Joker being millions of times faster than light thing, they literally acknowledged in the video that since GER can act independently of time, Joker's speed didn't mean anything against it.
I ALSO am a Persona Fan BUT even I too am surprised of The result.
I know The World of Personas & Shadows is Its own insanity BUT hearing Jojo World’s own insanity, I was intimidated and believed that Giorno would Win…BUT I Wanted to still support Joker cause He’s MY Boi in This Fight…THUS MY Surprise of The Result…
…BUT with certain reasons I actually agreed with DB (most ESPECIALLY His Confidants recharging His Will) and most importantly, certain reliable sources that say WHY This was correct & that a Majority of BOTH (non-Toxic) Persona Fans AND (non-Toxic) Jojo Fans agreed on This, This is One of The Moments wherein I’m actually Happy I am wrong about something…MY BOI LEGIT WON THIS!!!🎭😎🥰
Excitement aside, NOT sure This would be make it to MY Top10Fave DB’s of This Season cause I don’t think Sprites do Justice in doing How Awesome This Battle would be🤔
I agree the animation (while great for the most part) could have been better, with more sprites and all that specifically.
And yeah know that Jojo's already stupidly strong stands could be beaten by Persona characters was quite a shock, I think that was pretty clear from my reaction LOL! And they did manage to bring a lot to back this, and I do understand why Joker won
I'm glad you enjoyed the battle and had level-headed convos with other people in the community, it seems to be a welcoming one, which is good to see :)
@@VieuxCroutonCrumbs Jojo isn’t really strong when I comes to stats Haxes is an different story. The way I would describe Joker vs Giorno is this. Giorno's haxes are strong but Joker’s hax resist are even stronger.
It's weird that veteran Persona fans think Giorno was going to win and as a JoJo's fan I knew that Joker was going to win. It's just that. Bro, all the Persona protagonists at the end of the games are cheated (sad about Yuki, it destroyed me) but bro they literally leave with all-powerful powers. I love Persona and I ADORE Jojos that I literally can't think of anything that isn't a Jojo reference but it's just that with what I saw in Persona 3 and 4 I already imagined the victory. Anyway, I loved the death battle, it was on another level. And it's cinema.
10:53 Thanks for telling us you’re not a true Persona fan. If you were, you would know Joker wins.
By that logic, most people in the Persona 5 sub are not Persona fans.
@@thunfire459It’s kind of like the Fire Emblem fandom where they underestimate just how powerful their verse actually is.
@ They aren’t then.
@@muffetmissulena6540 Doesn’t most of the high tier fire emblem stuff come heroes?
@ Then does that mean that most of the people on the Jojo sub aren’t Jojo fans because they thought Joker was going to win.
Maruki: -has an ability that's almost exactly the same as GER, gets beat by Joker-
And yet... you think Giorno should have won? :v
Joker's abilities as a wild card are literally defying fate and rebelling against those who try to control him. It's literally "the power to say 'NO'" vs "the power to say 'YES' to people with the power to say 'NO'".
Only 21 subs tf you quality
Idk about quality, but thanks for watching
Kinda hurts that despite being a persona fan...you're upset about joker getting the win. You sir are not a persona fan.
I wasn't upset, I was more so shocked and weirded out that I was wrong, Jojo characters are stupid strong and seeing that shattered was unreal.
And what does it have to do with me being a Persona fan? LOL
And dont be hurt by my thoughts pwease :(
soo your telling him he should be bais that his favorite charecter won
girono is stronger
death battles suck at picking winners
THEY SAID OMNI MAN BEATS BARDOCK
@@gokugames1756 at least happy lol
@@gokugames1756 giorno is overrated af. But I do agree, Bardock was underplayed hard
Na Giorno win
Prove it