Birch Ply Alternatives? [video 527]
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- Опубликовано: 26 ноя 2024
- I used a couple of boards on the recent workshop drawer cabinet that have been widely touted as Birch Ply alternatives, and in this video I’m going into the details of how the Birch-faced Poplar plywood, and Maple-faced reinforced Globulus plywood, worked out. Enjoy!
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Thanks for this Peter, really useful and interesting, I totally agree, although the price of all 3 boards is quite staggering (to me at least) as the 2 alternatives are inferior in a number of ways it's not enough of a price difference ( 10-15% ) to make It worth switching in my opinion !
Thanks [edit for spelling] again for this, Peter. In the USA prices are not quite so horrible and the Globulus type plywood is touted as an alternative. Some folks have an allergic reaction to eucalyptus, so that might also be a consideration. (I know in my own case I can hack and wheeze for the better part of a day with plain old pine, spruce, and fir if I neglect my PPE.) My local "big box" supplier has hardwood veneer core maple plywood for $80.00 (£63.43 this morning) per sheet and I have a big gas guzzling pickup truck to get the stuff from the store to my shed. This stuff is 7-ply B2 grade, rotary cut and for anything but utility fixtures and shop furniture I would probably edge band it. The UV prefinished material is the same price but requires mechanical fasteners (pocket screws, etc.) to join a carcass, very popular with the shops that make kitchen cabinets. End customers display a prejudice against MDF, particle board, etc. in the USA. Not my problem I am my own end customer but the MR type MDF is impossible to find out in my part of the USA.
Great point about the allergic reaction to Globulus - I’d missed that, thanks! 🙌👍
How are you able to buy Baltic Birch? It’s been illegal to sell in the United States, since the Ukraine / Russian War. Baltic Birch is made in Russia. If you already had a stock, and made consumer products, you’d better be prepared to prove when it was bought.
If just for shop cabinets, can highly recommend hardwood faced ply. I paid £35 a sheet for 18mm B/BB Q Mark Hardwood Plywood to make some shelving in the workshop. It's a little gappy, but no worse than those cheaper alternatives. I picked the best edges, used a little filler on the couple of gaps I couldn't avoid and it looks really good with a coat of danish oil! Not Birch ply quality, but then 1/4 of the price!!
Thanks for the Video informative as usual, A video on the ply that BBQ is selling would be interesting at 1/4 of the price from your video alternatives,thanks
Holy moly plywood is expensive over there. I will honor your struggle by not wasting any of the $80 sheet I can buy in the US.
I pay about twice what you pay here in England, I lived in America Massachusetts materials are much easier to get and a lot cheaper in America,.
I recently bought some hardwood faced ply through Building Materials online for £53.87 although it was supplied and delivered by Rembrand Timber in Dundee. Even with my ulta cheap circular saw it cuts very nicely and I only found one small void exposed by the cuts. The hardwood facing is very thin as expected but at that price not unexpected.
I completely agree with you. I think you are correct in saying it's not a true replacement.
Really hoped you had found a proper birch ply alternative at half the price!
He has! He never said it would be "proper" or half price!
@@gbwildlifeuk8269 Sorry, I missed it. Where was that alternative in the video?
I was hoping for ¼ of the price...
@@gbwildlifeuk82696:38 he literally says they aren't good enough.
@@Macron87 the video was about the alternative to birch ply! 🤦♂️
Great video Peter. I will be fitting out my hall cupboard soon and had considered birch ply but the high cost is putting me off given it'll just be to store shoes, jackets and the wife's handbags. Looks like I'll be opting for 18mm MDF and a few coats of gloss paint.
I’ve always wondered why North American manufacturers can’t make full ply thickness plywood similar to Baltic Birch out of our native species. Is it just that it would cost too much? I’ve also wondered why we don’t see South American plywoods. In my US big box stores the cheapest stuff is still coming from SE Asia.
Someone did at one time. It was called 'Appleply'. Same thin internal plies from some species of hardwood, birch faces. I haven't seen it mentioned in a decade or so though. And the biggest South American ply manufacturer suffered a 'convenient' fire back a year or so before CoVid - we were even getting their product here is Australia cheaper than the locally made stuff, then suddenly nothing.
Peter, thanks for another excellent, informative video. In Ohio we have a sheet good listed as “Sande Plywood” I have done some preliminary research and found it is manufactured in Ecuador and is a mixture of 9 kinds of mulberry. The different areas and species have different regulations for harvesting so you get the species that is available when they’re making it I guess. It is listed as “marine grade” but it’s a bit cheaper than everything else. It seems to have a very soft face but very clear. Very few voids or weird discolorations in the plies. For reference,
23/32” Birch is 93 (not the best birch either )
23/32” maple faced mystery centers is 75
23/32” red oak plywood 85 (this one is very high quality right now. )
23/32 Sande is 70
23/32 Radiata pine is 55
I'm using that "sanded plywood" in a few DIY cabinets myself. You aren't kidding about how soft they are but it's workable. I'm treating them as paint grade, filling voids with wood filler, sanding with 120 grit, hitting it with sanding sealer, and then hitting it with 320 grit per the instructions on the sealer. It will require a primer before painting but when done the surface is smooth, the voids are filled, and the edges will be covered with edge banding. It's by no means a viable option for a production shop but us DIY garage guys have more time to throw at the problem.
I REALLY liked this video......Baltic Birch has gone crazy in price and availability here in Canada as well. I use only B/BB for the rounds we sell because of all the reasons you mention. I've tried other types of plywood and always return to the Baltic Birch. Here's hoping the price subsides a bit so I can continue making the rounds without having to increase the prices again.
we have a birch plywood called premcore in California that Im realizing now is a bargain ($70/sheet). very light and strong. awesome for workshop cabinets and my van. but it splinters like crazy, and the layers are not really presentable.
on a related note, i wish we could get colored mdf here. no valchromat or any alternatives here.
Try to find "Forescolor", a very nice throughly colored MDF that is very resistant to humidity and very stable.
@@alfredomarquez9777 thanks! will check them out.
Thanks for sharing, we are out of Brownsville Texas USA and have noticed those same issues with cheap alternatives and high prices.
Thanks for your thoughts and opinions.
I've been struggling with available birch ply coming out of China. I've decided that it's worth the extra cost to buy Baltic birch. The time spent repairing tearout and delamination more than makes up for the price difference.
I've heard that eucalyptus dust is really, really bad for your health, so please look into this before decide to use it. That aside. I've been enjoying your videos. For some reason I find them not just educational in value, but also calming. Thank you very much. (A retired Brit living in Washington State, USA)
Recently bought a couple of sheets of 'Birch' ply from one of the woodyards I use... having signed for the order I was left to go and load onto my van. Spent a good 30 minutes trying to find some decent sheets of ply (1x18mm, 2x9mm) and just about looking at every sheet in the stack I went off with something just about acceptable. Few days later was in the orange barn and their ply certainly looks better and amazingly enough there, at the time, hardwood ply was same price as their softwood ply; and over half the price of what I'd paid in the woodyard! I just hope we get back to having some decent ply soon 'cause I'm close to giving up trying to use stuff from the woodyard. Just really glad I don't have to do jobs using marine ply...
I built myself an 8ft long desk out of "big orange shed" hardwood ply a few years go, standing on a £20 set of Aldi sawhorses, then 18 months ago swapped the sawhorses for a pair of pedestals with drawers big enough for 60x40 crates and 45cm drawer slides. All pocketholes and glue. I didn't bother finishing it, so the wood's been "oiled" a little where my arms reach for the keyboard, but the edge rounding came out beatifully smooth despite using an incredibly cheap set of amazon router bits.
So long as you go and choose your own sheets so you don't get an arch (or your design has enough bracing to pull it straight) I don't see how these premium plywoods are worth 3x the cost of big orange's hardwood sheets.
Here in the US I found some plywood made from South American Trees, it's called Sande Plywood. Its fairly lightweight and straight.
Not really of fan of sande ply . Mine had a lot of nylon strings in it
@@revisionindustries667 I hadn't noticed nylon strings, one thing I did notice was. I don't dare cut it without a good dust mask on, very irritating sawdust
We have Sande here as well. It cuts ok but if you try to run a router on an edge you get lots of strings. The finished side also has a strange texture to it. The smell is also terrible.
After a few attempts to use and like Sande ply I've come to the conclusion that it's garbage. Same issues as everyone else posted.
I had the unplesant experience recently of using some Vietnamese "birch ply" alternative and the plys were so wavy and full of voids that the pieces were beyond shabby. I also noticed the veneer would lift if under too much pressure from a cabinet screw. So each screw had to be predrilled and a countersink used so the head of the screw wouldn't cause the bubble to form etc. Here in the US we have a product called Purebond that does a pretty good job and with the added benefit of not having formaldehyde used in the bonding process but instead a soy based one is used. However the veneer on both are incredibly thin these days and some brands like the first one aren't even slightly oversized for getting a clean square edge.
In 2019 I was getting bb/bb grade 18mm 4x8 Baltic birch for $35 a sheet. Still kicking myself for not stocking up 🤦♂️😂
5:36 Ok, I need the details on this grooving setup. It's ingenious! (I think I only need to know which bit you're using, I think I can figure out the rest 👍)
Thanks Peter, an interesting review. Appalling to see the cost of birch ply now. A long time since I bought any. Mike
Mike, same here. Far too expensive for a hobby woodworker like me.
Hi Peter..Very interesting video and as a long time user of Birch ply,there really is no alternative to solid hardwood board which it is.
Poplar is also known as lightweight, used in caravans and motorhomes. Not cheap around £150 for 8x4 and can still have voids. (Also not exactly light when you carry it! 😂)
Prices are still insane aren't they?
I remember years ago I stumbled across some maple veneered plywood in Homebase (of all places) and snapped it up at a very low price, I don't know how it ended up there since it's not usually the type of thing they would sell.
I tried some china birch. I could actually see through the face sheet. So easy to sand through. The china sheet goods also would warp, often pinched the blade, as I ripped through it the 96” length.
Watching you work with it and comments you've made previously, I already assumed this would be your conclusion. Interesting nonetheless.👍
Another super-informative video. I've gained a higher appreciation for birch plywood.
Same problem here in the States. You have to be a bit picky when selecting your sheets now. And it's hard to find good 9 ply as well. The big problem is that once you move away from Birch ply, the layers in the plywood seem to be more pours and it's ability to hold a glue connection decreases.
Beginning to be concerned about using hidden fasteners like floating tenon's and dowels without using screws or staples/brads to hold boxes together while the glue drys. I'll still use domino's or dowels for alignment, but I'm looking for other mechanical fasteners to supplement the connection.
There's more than just price inflation. Many birch plywood manufacturers have been confronted with sky high energy prices in 2022. As a result they started cutting corners between autumn and spring by no longer drying the material properly before assembling the plywood sheet. The quality is no longer the same all year round. There's "winter plywood", which arrives warped, and "summer plywood" which doesn't warp.
It's from Russia.
@@unabonger777 If you have nothing to say, then please don't comment.
I'm referring to the energy crisis of 2022.
@@jacquesmertens3369 I had something to say, and I said it. If you can't handle that, then don't comment or don't read the responses. Or perhaps you would like to explain what is causing the energy crisis for us. Just ignore the embargoes and tariffs and trade bans if that helps you feel smarter.
@@unabonger777 You just write 1 sentence "It's from Russia" which has nothing to do with what I wrote about the energy crisis of 2022, which has hit ALL types of laminated wood, regardless of the origin.
If you want to explain what you meant, here's your opportunity.
Here in Australia, we use eucalyptus timber as firewood (decking, flooring, beams, telegraph poles…)
Love your work 👍
Here it’s usually what gets ground up and use to make MDF! 😂👍
You are totally right to be picky! It's funny because I'm a carpenter by trade and show up on site and materials are already (or better be!😬) there, but when I go to the lumber yard to buy my own to work on my own home or do side jobs, I'm picky as heck. I'll even sort through 2x4 studs - which got really expensive a couple of years ago, like everything else - because super knotty, bowed or chewed up seemed an insult for $8 or more! And sheet goods: it better be damn-near perfect and come with a free kitten!
First video of yours I've seen--really great analysis and video clips really show the details you're calling out. I look forward to watching many more of your videos.
Thanks, and welcome. 👍
Just Subscribed to your channel, the birch plywood being my first choice material. You asked about thinner poplar plywood....well it is available marketed as
Laser Ply,
the glue used is only interior grade glue and "better" in the laser cutter.
It is sold by school suppliers and elsewhere in small handy sizes to drop into a laser machine in 3 or 4 or 6 mm thicknesses. Not as 8 x 4 sheets, but a company like Lathams sheet material specialists must stock it. They do list the ultra thin Aeroply, in birch, which was my prefered laser material. Which I can buy in small sheets from model shops.
The poplar is just not as strong, or stiff or solid as birch plywood IMHO.
With the cost so high, I'm considering veneered MDF.
Here’s hoping they get a few more mills online in Finland to get us a more steady supply.
I have bad news for you. The 3rd name for this product is “Russian birch plywood”.
Finland doesn’t have enough raw wood to produce amount of ply needed to cover everyone’s needs.
I think those who are marketing these as birch alternatives should be given the birch!
Peter, here in Aliquippa Pa USA we pay $84.00 for a 3 3/4x4'x8' of c-3 birch ply. C-3 is A3, B3, C3 are for plywood that will be seen from one side, but the back side must be clean, although there may be some stain or discoloration on the back, spliced veneer, and so on. One might use this material for the sides of a dresser (who looks inside?), for drawer sides, and shelving. Is ply made there in the UK
Great video Peter, I'd almost be tempted to laminate some wide boards at the price of birch ply, unless i needed a particularly large sheet.
Your comments are 100% dead on. Even before the Baltic Birch shortage I used some Vietnamese "birch ply" which has a very thin birch veneer and a dense mystery wood core. The walls of my shop are covered in this "birch ply" and while it looks nice, it's a pain to work with. It never fails to impale me with fine splinters of the veneer. Structurally, I think it's better than the "Corebond" maple veneered, poplar cored ply I've used that only has 5 core plies even though it has an abundance of voids and overlaps in the core plies. Some of my workshop mobile furniture is made with the 3/4" (18mm) Vietnamese product and it is completely adequate for structural purposes. The maple veneered poplar ply looks very nice but the poplar core definitely is not as strong and for heavy loads requires good design work. I need to make a mobile cabinet for a 700 pound mill-drill machine and will use cabinet grade fir plywood from Home Depot. I only mention the store name because they seem to be the only company carrying a good paint grade 7 ply 3/4" plywood. This tool is far too heavy to use pretty instead of functional sheet goods.
i just priced 3/4 inch 5x5 baltic birch g2s cabinet grade at $ 97 a sheet here in western NY so your prices are really crazy high. wow and 4x8 ft birch bp1 cabinet grade sheet is only $69.95
Building a set of cupboards with bookshelves above for son. No Birch ply available so have gone for the 18mm Globules Maple (from Ferguson’s). I had some 9mm birch ply in the shed so have used that for backs but the Globules has been disappointing especially given the price. The face is very thin and as you pint out does not machine as well. Had a lot of breakout using Lamello - I plunge very slowly and that seems to work. Hoping that son and wife stick with painted finish because I don’t think the veneer is thick enough to stand much abuse.
Happy to see a new video 😁
Got some ply from Wickes the other day, made in china, £40.50 a sheet after trade discount, normally pretty good but I cut 1 sheet & found a huge split within where it was delaminated as the glue was missing. The veneer is paper thin..
Another great video Peter, and I agree that these boards are not a genuine alternative (and as you say certainly not a cheap alternative!)
Great video Peter liked your tips on track saw use.😊
Thank you, sir! Your opinions and observations are very helpful.
And to think I currently have a commercial client that wants to use 18mm Birch plywood inside his partitions as patressing 🤣 His architect thought is was a splendid idea. I really enjoyed emailing a response! Regards JP
I think this was an excellently scripted video! Fantastic editing to boot. tHanks for an enjoyable time.
I have prayers and my fingers crossed for peace and prices.
Peter, excellent (succinct and easily digestible) explanation as always - thank you 👍 Maybe you’ve already done this (in which case my research hasn’t been extensive enough 😳😁), but I’d be very interested in your comparison of MDF versus Birch Ply as a raw material - when to use, relative pluses and minuses depending on what you’re trying to build?
I recently made a cabinet basing my efforts on your alcove unit series, to a good degree of success (even though I say so myself)! So I’m kinda leaning towards MDF as a preferred raw material at the moment -but I guess Ply has its place. Anyway, if you’ve thought about it or done it….
Thanks as always👏👏👏
Thanks Michael! Ply vs MDF is on the list, definitely! 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Try to compare HMR or "High Moisture Resistant" MDF... Like the one called "Forescolor", please.
Damn, I love this channel. That is all.
Very interesting. I haven’t bought any birch plywood recently as we had and have a good stock. I would only advise people to be careful when comparing prices of “birch plywood”; not all birch ply are made equal. You do need to check on the number of plus and also the codes for the surface quality (B or BB etc.). Then select the quality you need for a particular job.
But is the price for any of them “appalling”? I don’t think so. The prices we are paying for all board, in fact all timber, have fluctuated enormously over the last 3 or 4 years. Events such as the war in Ukraine, sanctions on Russia plus the pandemic saw a sudden and extreme change on the laws of supply and demand such that prices soared. Some of those increases have peaked and are dropping but certainly not yet back to levels of, say, 2019.
Timber is a commodity in the same vein as gas, oil, wheat, iron ore and hundreds of others. Subject to supply, demand and speculators.
Is anyone making fortunes out of all of this? I’m not so sure. The producers were operating at reduced levels due to labour shortages but their fixed overhead costs remained largely the same. So the overhead recovery per sheet or per pallet had to soar. We have all heard how the cost of shipping have increased as has the cost of diesel or petrol for transport.
Lastly, we have the timber merchant. I know one of ours quite well. He prices his stock based upon a mix of what it cost him and what it will cost him to replace. So, if a cubic metre cost him £2000 but the replacement will cost £3000, then he prices at £2500. So, he gets a windfall profit. Now. But, when he buys at high prices (say £3000) but will replace at £2000, then his cost price is £2500 which is a paper loss. Then, of course, he has to add his margin to cover fixed and variable overhead costs.
Going back 10 years or so, the price of waney edged boards was very low. If it had defects like checks, splits, inclusions, then it was probably as good as firewood. Now? The price of a defective waney edged boards is, per cubic metre, higher than processed square edged board. And yet, if I have to process waney edge onto square edged, I will probably have a wastage of 40, 50, 60%. Now that equation of waney to square does make no sense; except it is supply and demand. So, someone who was producing firewood is now making a lot of mone.y good on them.
Sorry, but I don't think you're correct. Firstly, Maersk shipping like a lot of corporations have posted record profits in their last financial year, and the global shipping price index is low, reflecting reduced economic activity in global markets. Right now, it's not business as usual and price gouging is a thing throughout supply chains as every supplier tries to raise prices. Those with enough market power will succeed until demand drops off. There are those who are testing just testing price tolerance, because you know these prices are not going back to what they were.
@@BigHenFor I can’t talk about Maersk but I know that al out of shipping rates are booked well in advance; just as people forward buy currency in order to get a price certainty. Of course, a key part of marketing is understanding how much the market will bear - I’m sure that controls the prices that Festool, for instance, charge. However, pricing of most commodities is a factor of supply and demand. If the production requirements (to keep a factory running) of a particular product that is made across various companies and countries are high and demand is less than that, then prices almost certainly fall. At the moment, from what I am told, that supply and demand balance, which was so heavily in favour of restricted supply, is currently falling somewhat towards lesser demand. I’m told to expect further easing of prices but we shall see.
A great, thorough review. Thank you ☺
Totally agree with your summary Peter. Haven't used the Globulus board, but did use some BF Poplar on a recent project and I can't see how they justify the price. The cynic in me would suggest that these two products are exploitatively overpriced due to the scarcity of the real thing...
That’s my take on it as well - it’s only an alternative because the real deal isn’t readily available, and slapping a commercial veneer on an ordinary board doesn’t make it the ‘real’ alternative! 🤦♂️👍
Slightly pinker than Birch, if you like the colour, Eucalyptus is much cheaper. My new bench tops are made from it, and to be honest, I don't mind the colour.
Excuse the potentially naïve question but apart from the look of the endgrain, how are these plywoods such a difference to say a sheet of 18mm hardwood ply at about £40 from Wickes et al and especially if you're just making carcasses, shelf units, and the like?
I do go into the details in the Baltic Birch Basics vid - link in the description - but it’s basically a much better quality board with better core layers and face veneers. I’d check out the other video though. 👍👍
Hey Peter, in Turkey, beech is widely available tree in our country and beech plywood manufactered locally. We use beech timber to frame everything (chairs, beds, sofas etc.) and beech ply used in Marine Industry way more than Birch ply. Prices were considerably cheaper when you compare it to birch before, now its more closer(%40 cheaper still). But sheet size are diffrent for beech (170x220) which gives you a little bit more sqm2 per sheet(about 0,615). Prices here are 92 euro for birch ply per sheet and 75 euro for beech ply, VAT included. I dont know about the availability in UK but can share some photos for edge with you.
I think its a bit nicer to work with Birch ply tho, Beech feels a bit more rough than birch on surface, but after sanding and finishing it, it has its own look which i really like.
I'd be interested to see that, and especially to see whether it's available in the UK. Love the look of beech.
Thanks! Never seen a beech ply before, I’ll make some enquiries. Thank you! 🙌👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop google STREtek by falcon timber. Looks interesting. Be interested to see how available it is.
Another excellent informative video and I fully agree about the price of timber.
You just saved me a trip to garnica dealer… I still may try them out just for the purpose of trying.
But hey. I am wondering. How did it happen that we are not capable of making any better?
I agree - it's not worth paying almost as much for a product that is no where near as good. If we keep demanding quality, some plywood manufacturer will eventually have to step up with a quality product. (I hope)
Excellent in depth look at other plywoods. If I were building cabinets with edge banding &/or the ply layers weren’t visible, I’d use the globulous. At least it seems strong/robust enough to last a while and the maple veneer is quite attractive. However, when you add in the cost of edge banding, filler for the voids and such, it would negate the roughly $30 savings of not buying real birch ply. Hopefully other companies in different countries will be able to step into the birch ply arena in the near future.
Cheers Paul! The main issue is availability - 18mm Birch is hard to get at any price - but edgebanding can only go so far, of course, and would be hard to use on tight curves, say. There''s another video (or two...) to come in this series, I think! 👍
B&Q's 18mm plywood cores are about the same as the Globulous plywood ... £45 a sheet. Easily edge banded, for next to nothing.
Came here to say the same!
The guy in my supplier told me the birch faced ply particularly comes from russia hense the issue. Theyve been selling me a beech faced 72hour ply instead. Supposedly a half way between marine and general hardwood ply. Good enough for £50.
Real Birch ply is such a superb product, it’s worrying to think we may never again be able to obtain it at reasonable cost! 😢😢😢
Good video, now my birch supply has dried up I've been quoted for Beech ply from a local merchant. 18mm, 13 ply layup on an A/B finish. £108 + VAT per sheet. Might be worth a try?
That sounds more like it; have you seen it or used it?
@@10MinuteWorkshop not yet, Alsford timber down in Sussex have only just got it in stock. I've got some kitchens coming up that I'll be trying it on.
In the South West, Bradfords do quite a good exterior B grade ply. Probably far eastern, and nothing like birch ply, but I made a pretty decent set of cabinets from it. At £55 a sheet (trade) I'd use it again. It's a bit pink (stains fine though) and there are occasional defects, but with careful selection and cutting I was pretty happy.
Thanks for the Bradford’s tip off - I’ve returned 2 boards this week to other shops due to extremely poor quality
Your prices seem high Peter, what was your supplier? I can get a single full sheet for around £130 inc VAT 'up here in the North'. Less if going for larger quantities...
Thanks for your take on the alternatives, ... I've not used Baltic Birch plywood, although I'd love to, but just far too expensive ... the cost of the 'alternatives' is just taking the proverbial ... I'd pay the small amount extra to get the real deal!
Once the current madness in the world is over, prices will revert to more normal levels ..... and fairies will start living at the bottom of your garden!!
Found a perfect sheet of 3/4 Aspen ply at the building center and when I took it to the till they said it was free because it was marked as being the bottom sheet from the lift
A good day! 😂👍
Thanks for testing them, Peter! 😊
But yeah... The world has been weird and expensive...
Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
Falcon Panels are now doing an 18mm poplar ply with 11 plies to replicate the look of birch. Visually it is very very close to birch on both edges and faces. The quality and consostency is excellent . £115 inc vat from my local supplier.
Yes, I’ll be taking a look at this with Robin Clevett soon. 👍
If the issue is just the visual appearance of the cores then do a demo on edge banding or veneer. It's really fast with the right tools.
I think In the future we will need to learn to appreciate the defects in more basic materials such as shuttering and softwood ply, and make the best of simpler cheaper materials.
Edgebanding can only go so far - try edgebanding a tight internal curve like a handle cut-out in a drawer front, for example - and a large part of the appeal of Birch is the lack of any special edge treatment needed. But I agree, we'll need to get used to less than stellar, cheaper materials; unfortunately these two boards are too costly to be in that category! 👍
Brilliant Peter, I've been waiting for this video even if the end take away isn't what I wanted to hear. I haven't worked with birch ply since I was in school, now I have the skills and the tools it's a little off putting at that price.
More to com on this story. I’m homing in in a proper alternative, but it’s a while away. 👍👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Great news looking forward to being educated
Have plywood prices really gone that high? This is crazy...
Termites love it.
Super useful - thanks!
Eucalyptus ply has triggered my curiosity not least because I would guess it is probably one of the most environmentally friendly trees to grow for exploitation on account of its fast growth. Why not a pure eucalyptus ply though? Why is the poplar needed?
The way things are going, bamboo ply will be commonplace - read: the only available material - pretty soon.
Was wondering myself, Eucalyptus actually has a pretty attractive grain pattern (from what I have seen) so a purely eucalyptus plywood might be quite nice. It is dark though, when finished it's often a reddish brown with streaks of pink and is quite beautiful in my opinion but wouldn't be for anyone looking for a true alternative to birch with its paleness.
Fast grown plantation Eucalyptus is pretty porous, the hybrid cultivar that is generally used was 'designed' as pulpwood for paper manufacture. There is a lot of difference between forest grown Eucalypts which are very hard and dense and those planted in parks and plantations. Oh, and most species of Eucalypts have a high silica content which pretty rapidly destroys cutting edges on tools & machinery, so they would cost more overall to process - even in Australia Eucalypts haven't been used for ply in the last half century, its all plantation grown core with maybe a plantation hardwood face veneer like Meranti (ptooey!) 'Pacific Maple' (you think Poplar is bad!)
@@brucelee3388 Ah that explains it then! I always thought it was a really hard wood but then most accounts I have come across describe it as soft. Why does the plantation tree differ from the naturally grown? I doubt they use fertilisers so could it be that they are artificially watered perhaps or that it is a different subspecies?
Your last sentence above surely was meant to read "have been used" instead of "haven't been used", right?
Yes. Regular watering, but also more sunlight because the plantation trees are further apart and have no 'over storey' of older trees shading them, better/richer soil even without additional fertilizer. If you are growing the trees for pulp wood then having more knots from branches isn't a problem - the timber marketed in the US as 'Lyptus' comes from the trees which stick to their original form and grow straight up with few branches, the rest get turned into wood chips for paper. Australian Eucalypts were also popular park trees on the US West Coast, but the timber they produce is only used for firewood as it is soft and knotty, even cats sharpening their claws will shred it (as some friends found out). Combined with the native Chaparal it makes for horrendous fires which are very hard to control or extinguish. Australia -used- to make ply from locally grown hardwoods, but starting in the 1950's there was a considerable effort to create large plantations growing exotic species (for Australia) like Monterey pine (aka Radiata pine), Slash Pine (one of the species sold as Southern Yellow pine) and poplar (for matches). Radiata pine was the most successful, now being the major source of building timber as well as ply - the poplar plantations were largely destroyed by industrial sabotage (someone went around and spread a poplar specific fungus on most of the plantations which had to be destroyed, but none of the decorative poplars in parks or along railway lines got it). Slash pine is grown in plantations in Queensland but it is not widely available elsewhere, possibly the Radiata growers have better marketing & distribution.
@@brucelee3388 I've heard about the eucalyptus trees being being very prone to huge forest fires where they have been imported. Is the same the case for Australia? I do not understand why they are so inflammable as it takes some effort to light up their dried leaves.
This by the way, reminds to me ask why they were imported in the first place? I have been puzzled by the number of municipalities in Greece that have planted eucalyptus trees. I guess this must have happened some time in the sixties as these trees are invariably huge and I'm not really sure I see new trees having been planted anywhere. They do not integrate with the natural environment (they do not offer home to any native bird or animal as far as I can tell), they produce a lot of fall out that the town must regularly clean as it tends to pile up and cover streets (which their huge roots destroy anyway) and they pose a great danger when their branches grow so large that they can snap off at any moment. I guess the reason for their introduction must have been the quick growth rate and somewhat passable shadow they produce (I don't think they offer any great shadow in a hot summer anyway, not compared to many other native species).
Yes, quite frustrating. It wasn't long ago that I begrudgingly payed $35 for a 1/2" sheet of authentic Baltic birch here in the US. $35!!
That would be like a dream come true now.
Same here. $50 for a 5’x5’ sheet of 3/4 here in Seattle. Absolutely gorgeous stuff to work with. I made a desktop from laminating 2 layers together for 1-1/2 *heavy* inches. All the plies looked so nice I just sanded and oiled. Shame to have edge-banded over it.
The poplar ply will be for me if I can convince the females of the family that I need to build myself a small one man (plus dog) camper as I be aiming to keep the weight down. I'll just have to design the build so that the edges aren't on show.
Years ago there was a sheet product that was called 'cabinet board'. It had a core of particle board with a laminated veneer on each side. Best I remember it was about half the cost of similar thickness birch plywood. Is there a similar product today or perhaps something with an OSB core ???
You can get veneered chipboard/particleboard certainly, but it’s a different product to plywood. 👍👍
TFL/HPL in PB or MDF core. Usually used by commercial since its really just paper decorative with a hard finish.
HI Peter, Could you tell me what finishing wax you have used on this or point me in the direction of any of your videos which contain information about finishes on PLY. The wax looks like a good option for my needs. Cheers
Hi. My go-to finish for Birch ply is a simple liquid beeswax, usually liberon because I can get it easily, but pretty much anything works.👍
Hi Peter Richard Russel in south London had to send their batch of the Asian stuff back because the quality was so bad so just went for the real thing 18mm at £125 + so not to bad 👍
Interesting, thanks! £125+ isn’t bad - roughly what I was paying pre-madness! 👍
Once upon a time I bought an 18mm 8x4 sheet of birch ply for £80….those were the days!
I had a source where I could get 18mm for around £55 - just before the pandemic.
Thanks for that informative video
At those sorts of prices, would bamboo be a viable option? 19mm 8x4 sheets are around £200-£250 from somewhere like UK Bamboo Supplies. Obviously looks are subjective, and I've no idea how it works but might be an alternative to other ply or mdf.
Not worked with bamboo sheets but fitted some bamboo worktops and they required extreme care to minimise splintering, not a fun material to work with.
What are your thoughts on dust generation? My experience with what I believe was poplar ply was that it made a lot of very fine choking dust, even some later after I improved.
I haven’t noticed anything different about it tbh, but I always use dust extraction so it would need to be pretty bad to be noticeable. 👍
I've used walnut veneered popular ply, I so regretted it I got there in the end but a real chore to work with compared to Birch. For now I've put a pin in cabinet making till either I win the lotto or Birch ply comes down Pointless investing the time designing and making something that'll just to be let down by poor quality over priced materials.
I’m curious, as someone who only occasionally buys plywood, what were the pre inflated prices for the 3/4 aka 19 mm Baltic birch per sheet.
For some set building I’ve done they insisted on what was un affectionately called “dragon ply”. Ultra thin veneer but apparently half price.
Our big box stores in Canada don’t really sell Baltic birch so have no idea what the prices are.
Last time I bought a sheet it was about £80 here in the UK, a few years back. Now well over £200.
Thanks for this Peter, I have been looking at the alternatives recently given the supply and cost of proper birch ply, I am building a room divider in my hall way and I have used Birch ply to make new doors for my kitchen cabinets so I wanted to carry this material through the house.
To be honest I have been thinking about getting Veneered MDF sheet and buying Birch ply edge banding to give me the effect I want.
I could do this with maple veneered sheet and the proper ply edge banding for about £118 a sheet. Still stupid expensive but is more than half the price of birch ply.
I wonder if you have ever done this before?
I haven’t, but it’s in my list of things to try out! I have the birch ply edgebanding, jus need the MDF! 👍
I think the best alternative is ApplePly, but being more expensive than BB, it's hard to call it an alternative.
Thanks
Thanks Peter, interesting video. Do you ever use blockboard at all? Seems to have gone out of fashion but might be a useful substitute for ply in some situations.
Can you still buy it? Haven’t seen it for donkeys years!
@@10MinuteWorkshop Absolutely. Google throws up lots of suppliers, £40-£80 a sheet for 18mm. All I have seen so far look thinly veneered, not Baltic Birch quality but there maybe some good stuff out there as well. Obviously not a direct replacement for ply because of the directional grain but would be a good substitute for carcasses etc and maybe not as poisonous as mdf.
I’ve fell into the Baltic birch hype and bough a bunch of sheets of 1/4” and 1/2”. I’m building out a van and am curious opinions on if it’s too heavy to use or it’s worth it.
Van and caravan fits often use Poplar ply because very lightweight; might be worth a look - just be aware that it's very soft in comparison to Birch. 👍
Hi Peter wow those alternatives are still expensive fortunately my local timberyard are quoting £135 for 18mm Birch ply which is still a lot of money but they don't have the alternatives
At £135/sheet I’d snap it up if it’s decent quality. 👍👍
What buildes merchant is that?
Well, if Kevin does name the merchant it will all be gone by the time The King has his hat on tomorrow.
@@emmetworkshop2829 comment of the day, thanks for the 😂
Thank you, I have been waiting for this one :)
Although poplar is much cheaper then birch locally, I guess because birch is even more expensive lol
Peter, what grade baltic birch are you discussing here? I presume B grade face and BB grade back?
Yes, B/BB is my go-to for Birch. 👍
Peter have you seen Eucalyptus plywood £40 a sheet @18mm?
No, I haven’t - where are you getting it from?
Which plywood do you recommend for cabinets to be painted not stained ?
It something I’ve ever done I’m sorry. 🤷♂️👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop thanks for the reply ;).
Thanks.