Here’s the CoreXY explainer comment! The primary goal, as Ivan said, is to reduce the moving weight of the system. By keeping the motors stationary, you accomplish this. Unfortunately, it becomes difficult to isolate the movement of the motors into the two separate X and Y axes, so they end up getting combined like he demonstrated. Previously, in industrial machinery with very stiff gantries, you could accomplish this with a kinematic system called an H-bot (called this because the belt forms an H shape), which was very simple and didn’t involve any belt crossing. It does however, REQUIRE the gantry to be very stiff, as X direction moves applied force to only one side of the gantry, exerting a twisting force on it. With the advent of 3D printers, pretty much the first consumer-tier high speed cartesian robots, a new system was needed, in order to not require a super stiff (and therefore heavy and expensive) gantry. CoreXY had been used throughout history, most notably in computerized drafting tables, but didn’t see it’s big moment until people realized it’s perfect for fast (or in this case very large) 3D printers. As for how each system actually works: here’s a quick explainer: - H-bot kinematics use one very long belt, which wraps around each motor with both ends at the carriage. This means that there is only one way to pull the carriage in each direction. Since each end comes from a different side of the gantry, those same forces are applied to only one side of the gantry, causing it to twist. - CoreXY kinematics essentially just double up the H-bot design, adding a second belt, running in the opposite direction to the first (with one motor per belt) so that each carriage move produces two equal and opposite forces on the gantry, cancelling out the twisting forces.
I built a CoreXY, well, I modded my weird XY bedflinger to be a CoreXY bedflinger, and there is always a tradeoff. In the case of the CoreXY, you trade the mass on one axis for much longer belts that are a bit more prone to ringing. And you still have one axis with a greater mass than the other. A crossed gantry design (sometimes called "quadrap") has shorter belts and both axes have the same mass, but it requires more hardware to prevent racking.
@@TDOBrandano yeah, honestly on something this big I’d probably do rack and pinion or a stationary belt drive just for precisions sake. Most of the time spent printing is gonna be long straight lines, so the lower accelerations needed for a heavier gantry wouldn’t have as much of an impact on print time.
@@ionstorm66 I want the same answer. I thought about getting a quote to see if it is worth it or not. However, if they do not exist already off the shelf, the cost could be worth it. Hopefully it is low enough to not regret the purchase after the fact. Inevitably this size of printer is going to become commonplace in the next few years and the parts will be readily available. I have been collecting parts for a couple years and plan on making one at least this size. I just need the space.
For folks building their own printer: When tensioning the belts on coreXY, you need to keep the Y-gantry square with the frame. The easiest way to do that is to move it to one end of the printer and tie it down there temporarily while you tension the belts. When you pull on one belt, it will want to move the gantry out of square, and this is normally held in check by the tension from the other belt. This is why both belts need to have the same tension, and why you need the gantry held square while the belt tensions are uneven while being adjusted.
foam filling will reduce noise or stick some rubber sheet in different locations to stop reverberations and hollow tubes that are magnifying the sound. awesome built Ivan. Well done
Aw man I love this kind of engineering, everything is so modular and well planned/fitting. Bolts everywhere, no destructive connection. It's like a giant toy lol
Bravo, excellent design, Ivan. All of those long-length belts and frame stability are a big challenge. I can't wait to see the printing quality of this machine. Keep going
Seriously amazing. It seems straight forward but CoreXY is still a mystery to me. Hey, thanks for the constant encouragement at the end of your videos. I'm finally back working on one of my project while watching this.
Hey Ivan, please check out vzbot AWD for example adding 2 more motors on top :) shorter paths realy would help this build ! the shorter the paths the less problem with torque cause of the heavy belts adding 2 more motors on the top would realy make a big difference a specialy for a printer this size :)
Very cool to see it work first try :D I just finally finished building your desktop cnc, was so thrilled when I got everything working and moving around, such a great feeling :D
It's beautiful! Obviously it won't print at those speeds but now I want to see someone try to make a reinforced VORON this size. That'd be hilariously dangerous.
Love the sci-fi spaceship sounds from the motors running, though if you find it gets annoying maybe switching to idlers with teeth on them might be quieter than the belt teeth running over the smooth idlers?
One source of the noise are the teeth of the belts running over ball bearings instead of fitting pulleys. The xy System should then be significantly quieter
Might need to look at replacing the washers on the roller guide parts to get less up and down movement of the belt. That is going to translate into slight location errors.
So if we consider the corner pieces at 3:50, scale them up so they fill the whole bed of this printer then the next printer that uses those parts will be the size of a two storey building. Now that could print a tank...
Considering the size of the machine and the torque of the motors a little grease on the idler axles could help some of the noise and shouldn't affect performance
When are you going to pull a Snapmaker and develop interchangeable heads for these monster printers? I'm imagining your tank with a custom cut Plexiglass type front and side screens for tank battles. Or removable safety shields for your printers to keep heat in and still be able to see what's going on.
Don't miss what's coming: he will use this 3D printer to make a larger 3D printer. ;-) I am not someone who easily creates 3D models on a computer, so I always thought that making parts out of wood was much faster for me. But when you factor in fine details, sanding, finishing, different tools for specialist things and that you still need to design the thing you're making parts for and the actual parts, I am starting to be convinced that 3D printing is pretty cool and worthwhile to learn/do.
Try using a belt with smaller bumps so you can have milimetric presicion, since with that belt you only get the presition of one of that bumps (which looks big)
Thats some nasty stepper whine. I suggest something like the nano zero stepper (servo) from misfit tech, or the mks servo boards. Much quieter, plus you can up acceleration and speed without fear of losing steps. I use the nano zero boards on the nema23s we have on a 1.5x3m plasma cutter at work. Dead silent.
Given the rigidity and hollowness of the frame, and the tightness of the belts, are you at all concerned about the printer being one big audio resonator? Would it be worthwhile to add dampeners or fill to the frame?
corexy usually don't scale very well b/c belt path/length. You should do a test to see what the max acceleration the machine can achieve. kind of curious
What if you used some kind of spray foam inside the metal frame? do you think it would help on sound? I am thinking some automotive type foam not the kind on your house. You may need to do some kind of resonance noise tuning as well.
I feel like if weight savings on your gantry is your goal, you could probably effectively do away with the aluminum channel and all the screws and just have printed mounts to join the X rail with the Y rails. That rail is pretty stout and unless you're putting a large pellet extruder on your gantry (which would definitely negate any benefit of ~25g of omitted bolts) you can probably get away without the aluminum square tube for additional rigidity.
I'm pretty sure that Polymaker has a dedicated factory just for the red filament.
just for Ivan
maybe not before, but now they need to xD
They have a factory dedicated only for Ivan
I count 33 boxes, how many kg is that.
@@SidneyCritic 165?
Here’s the CoreXY explainer comment!
The primary goal, as Ivan said, is to reduce the moving weight of the system. By keeping the motors stationary, you accomplish this. Unfortunately, it becomes difficult to isolate the movement of the motors into the two separate X and Y axes, so they end up getting combined like he demonstrated.
Previously, in industrial machinery with very stiff gantries, you could accomplish this with a kinematic system called an H-bot (called this because the belt forms an H shape), which was very simple and didn’t involve any belt crossing. It does however, REQUIRE the gantry to be very stiff, as X direction moves applied force to only one side of the gantry, exerting a twisting force on it.
With the advent of 3D printers, pretty much the first consumer-tier high speed cartesian robots, a new system was needed, in order to not require a super stiff (and therefore heavy and expensive) gantry. CoreXY had been used throughout history, most notably in computerized drafting tables, but didn’t see it’s big moment until people realized it’s perfect for fast (or in this case very large) 3D printers.
As for how each system actually works: here’s a quick explainer:
- H-bot kinematics use one very long belt, which wraps around each motor with both ends at the carriage. This means that there is only one way to pull the carriage in each direction. Since each end comes from a different side of the gantry, those same forces are applied to only one side of the gantry, causing it to twist.
- CoreXY kinematics essentially just double up the H-bot design, adding a second belt, running in the opposite direction to the first (with one motor per belt) so that each carriage move produces two equal and opposite forces on the gantry, cancelling out the twisting forces.
Told'ya
@@ivanmirandawastaken Just doing my job ;)
I built a CoreXY, well, I modded my weird XY bedflinger to be a CoreXY bedflinger, and there is always a tradeoff. In the case of the CoreXY, you trade the mass on one axis for much longer belts that are a bit more prone to ringing. And you still have one axis with a greater mass than the other. A crossed gantry design (sometimes called "quadrap") has shorter belts and both axes have the same mass, but it requires more hardware to prevent racking.
For extreme large machines like this a cross xy gantry would work better. Way shorter belt so less resonance on it.
@@TDOBrandano yeah, honestly on something this big I’d probably do rack and pinion or a stationary belt drive just for precisions sake. Most of the time spent printing is gonna be long straight lines, so the lower accelerations needed for a heavier gantry wouldn’t have as much of an impact on print time.
Our pleasure to help you fab these parts out and most importantly, nice content as always, Ivan 👍
Cheers!
@@ivanmirandawastaken What is the cost of those pulleys in aluminum though?
@@ionstorm66 I want the same answer. I thought about getting a quote to see if it is worth it or not. However, if they do not exist already off the shelf, the cost could be worth it. Hopefully it is low enough to not regret the purchase after the fact. Inevitably this size of printer is going to become commonplace in the next few years and the parts will be readily available. I have been collecting parts for a couple years and plan on making one at least this size. I just need the space.
$1000
@@jesuslovesyou5819 that would be too much, for sure. I hope it's not that high.
First print will be a corner piece to an even larger printer. 😁
Deal! 👊
@@ivanmirandawastaken I sure hope it will max out the print area!
@@ivanmirandawastaken Make a printer that's mounted on the walls of the room you're in, also using COREXY. :)
Perhaps with 'belt & pinion' - would be cool to see, and less problems with tension/stretching.
Hey Sean, caught you there 😊
For folks building their own printer: When tensioning the belts on coreXY, you need to keep the Y-gantry square with the frame. The easiest way to do that is to move it to one end of the printer and tie it down there temporarily while you tension the belts. When you pull on one belt, it will want to move the gantry out of square, and this is normally held in check by the tension from the other belt. This is why both belts need to have the same tension, and why you need the gantry held square while the belt tensions are uneven while being adjusted.
foam filling will reduce noise or stick some rubber sheet in different locations to stop reverberations and hollow tubes that are magnifying the sound. awesome built Ivan. Well done
Aw man I love this kind of engineering, everything is so modular and well planned/fitting. Bolts everywhere, no destructive connection. It's like a giant toy lol
Bravo, excellent design, Ivan. All of those long-length belts and frame stability are a big challenge.
I can't wait to see the printing quality of this machine.
Keep going
change the idles with puly's so the ribs of the belt doesnt slide over the idlers -> makes it more silence and less vibrations.
Seriously amazing. It seems straight forward but CoreXY is still a mystery to me.
Hey, thanks for the constant encouragement at the end of your videos. I'm finally back working on one of my project while watching this.
00:34 Fantastic explanation. You made it simple to understand the Core-XY system of movement.
Your wire management is really nice. I wish I had the patience to do that.
on a printer this large, you have to manage the wires or you'll run into problems at one time.
Love the last shot with the camera on the gantry 😁 this project is amazing!
Hey Ivan, please check out vzbot AWD for example adding 2 more motors on top :) shorter paths realy would help this build !
the shorter the paths the less problem with torque cause of the heavy belts adding 2 more motors on the top would realy make a big difference a specialy for a printer this size :)
At that point, crossed gantry would probably be more worth it imo- significantly shorter belt paths and a lot more rigidity
Very clean build 👌 i like your wire management. Awesome progress. Cant wait to see the rest. Good job
I enjoy that you explained the model you were printing even though you weren't printing
Something about the sound of that machine is so satisfying!😂👍🏻
WOW....this thing gets better and better!
Extremely impressive work as always, Ivan! This thing is turning into a seriously solid fabrication rig. Super excited to see what’s next. :)
Ivan, very cool videos from the very beginning I have been following all your projects.
Even the noise is nice 😅. Great job. I'm excited to see the first printing.
That's a thing of beauty!
Very cool to see it work first try :D I just finally finished building your desktop cnc, was so thrilled when I got everything working and moving around, such a great feeling :D
Yes!! WELL DONE!
Your cable routing is legendary
@7:41
That is some REALLY satisfying cable management.
The captions are great - apparently when the gantry moves, it's "foreign music" and "applause". Excellent video as usual!
Awesome!! I cant wait to see it printing and all the crazy project you will do with it!! 😀👍
Literally how an etch-a-sketch works 😂 funny how this technology can be used from industrial applications to a kids toy!
It's beautiful! Obviously it won't print at those speeds but now I want to see someone try to make a reinforced VORON this size. That'd be hilariously dangerous.
i tried the polymaker pteg recently and was extremely satisfied
Smart choice Ivan! It sounds haunted.... How appropriate! XD
fill the hollow profile with mounting foam, the sound will be quieter...
Great editing!
Sir, you have brass ones to stand THAT close to tensioned, untested belts at that speed lol. Looks amazing! Can't wait too see the hotend choice!
Love the sci-fi spaceship sounds from the motors running, though if you find it gets annoying maybe switching to idlers with teeth on them might be quieter than the belt teeth running over the smooth idlers?
Great build. The design and implementation is very impressive. Thank you!
I can feel the thrill just by watching the machine moving!!
One source of the noise are the teeth of the belts running over ball bearings instead of fitting pulleys. The xy System should then be significantly quieter
Nice video and that's like a lot of red filament spools! I never saw that much of one color ;)
Why can't I like this video more than once!!!
you made my day man thanks!
Toothed idler pulleys would probably be good with belts that coarse, maybe also use a larger radius
Gotta love some core XY
❤‼️😃 Great! And fun!
Great content and SUCH great editing! 🥰
Tap drill for M4 is 3.3mm with Aluminium you can also go lower to 3.2mm, if you want holding quality threads.
I love your designs. Clean and simple. 👌
I'm not a CoreXY fan btw. This belt is long enough to make problems.
Might need to look at replacing the washers on the roller guide parts to get less up and down movement of the belt. That is going to translate into slight location errors.
I can't even imagine how you'll be able to extrude filament fast enough to print as fast as that gantry can move fast. Would be cool to see though!
It sounds like a racetrack! Is the noise caused by the belt teeth on the smooth pulleys and if so, wouldn't it be quieter to have toothed pulleys?
You're a good sport Ivan. I hope this printer makes your dreams come true!
You're absolutely inspiring man!
So if we consider the corner pieces at 3:50, scale them up so they fill the whole bed of this printer then the next printer that uses those parts will be the size of a two storey building. Now that could print a tank...
yeah a print-in-place tank 😁
admirable effrots. thanks for sharing.
Sorted, can't to see your first print👍
3d printer and whale call. Brilliant. 🎉
@Araye : I knew I recognised that sound! 👍 😀
You're going to have to build a small room around it and insulate it for sound. And then you can have a heated enclosure as well. LOL
the ball bearings one the corners of the XY system wouldn't they wear out the belt? should you not replace them by a belt gear?
Nghe Phúc hát mà nước mắt rơi mãi ....quá nhiều cảm xúc ùa về, quá nhiều kỉ niệm. Cảm ơn Đức Phúc thật nhiều, giọng hát anh ấm tựa nắng mùa Thu vậy.
Sounds like an air raid siren when it is running! lol
NICE Printer XY Core
polymaker!!!! yeaaa
ensure all belts are totally parallel and corners/idlers are all at 90 degrees. gantry squareness is determined by equal belt tension.
Reminds me of the 1m^3 Hevort I designed and built last year. Nice work.
That belt noise is interesting, but can be reduced by flipping the belts around so the flats are riding on the wheels rather than the teeth.
Congratulations. You made a very complex air raid alarm!
Considering the size of the machine and the torque of the motors a little grease on the idler axles could help some of the noise and shouldn't affect performance
Absolutely outstanding! I love your projects!
I love polymaker filament
Impresionante Iván.
Gracias por todo
Saludos
When are you going to pull a Snapmaker and develop interchangeable heads for these monster printers? I'm imagining your tank with a custom cut Plexiglass type front and side screens for tank battles. Or removable safety shields for your printers to keep heat in and still be able to see what's going on.
Super cool channel! :) I'm following this build only but wow, 10/10.
That noise is terrifying, but I kinda like it
Is the noise amplified by all those hollow tubes? If so, you could fill them with high density spray foam or something else light but, erm, filling.
Don't miss what's coming: he will use this 3D printer to make a larger 3D printer. ;-)
I am not someone who easily creates 3D models on a computer, so I always thought that making parts out of wood was much faster for me. But when you factor in fine details, sanding, finishing, different tools for specialist things and that you still need to design the thing you're making parts for and the actual parts, I am starting to be convinced that 3D printing is pretty cool and worthwhile to learn/do.
What a monster
Would’ve loved to see a g2 arc circle drawn at high speed while testing it.
Absolutely brilliant work👏👏
Given the size of the gantry and the weight of the linear rails, I wonder if the Exoslide-system wouldn't be better in such a case.
Try using a belt with smaller bumps so you can have milimetric presicion, since with that belt you only get the presition of one of that bumps (which looks big)
Thats some nasty stepper whine. I suggest something like the nano zero stepper (servo) from misfit tech, or the mks servo boards. Much quieter, plus you can up acceleration and speed without fear of losing steps. I use the nano zero boards on the nema23s we have on a 1.5x3m plasma cutter at work. Dead silent.
Awesome project and video !! Where can we find details about the CNC board qnd the command Android App you used ?
Given the rigidity and hollowness of the frame, and the tightness of the belts, are you at all concerned about the printer being one big audio resonator? Would it be worthwhile to add dampeners or fill to the frame?
Or maybe a stereo amplifier?
9:05 like a voron you should make the two belts the same size.
This just got epic!
You should consider making this print with more than plastic, you could try clay or concrete in a paste extruder
corexy usually don't scale very well b/c belt path/length. You should do a test to see what the max acceleration the machine can achieve. kind of curious
you should order some mellow 3d 5160 v1.2 pro drivers, they can do 6 amps and have stealthchop which would get rid of like 80 percent of that noise
This printer needs to be named the Beluga. It sounds like a whale song when it moves!
those 2 extra screwholes that were in the wrong place would drive me bonkers and restart the build :P (true story haha)
Always amazing! Keep up the great work!
need to get idler with teeth for the inside of the belt , it will likely increase quality and reduce some of that noise ....
Your stepper noise is from the drivers. My CNC mill was loud until i installed these STEPPERONLINE DM860T drivers now it is almost silent.
What if you used some kind of spray foam inside the metal frame? do you think it would help on sound? I am thinking some automotive type foam not the kind on your house. You may need to do some kind of resonance noise tuning as well.
you going to be able to get that thing out of your shop if you ever have to move it :D
ivan i have a suggestion to upgrade to dual extrusion sets (1 mm and 0.4 mm nozzle). you can save 5X time for printing
Do you have a shredder/filament extruder for all the parts you could recycle?
are the steppers the main source of the noise or the resonance of the hollow frame?
you could try different stepper drives in order to get this thing to be more quiet.
I feel like if weight savings on your gantry is your goal, you could probably effectively do away with the aluminum channel and all the screws and just have printed mounts to join the X rail with the Y rails. That rail is pretty stout and unless you're putting a large pellet extruder on your gantry (which would definitely negate any benefit of ~25g of omitted bolts) you can probably get away without the aluminum square tube for additional rigidity.
please once its running do a klipper resonance test with and adxl, that could be scary !