Elaphe remains a valued partner in our journey. Due to market constraints last year, we paused some custom engineering projects to explore off-the-shelf solutions that require less capital and offer a faster time to market, while retaining our efficiency ethos. We will have more to share on our production drivetrain soon.
“In our journey” sounds past tense. It appears that 1) Aptera were using Elaphe motors 2) that to modify them became uneconomical 3) a new supplier has been found (Chery?) 4) and perhaps the future could include engineering their own motors using Elaphe’s tech. I look forward to the announcement.
Thanks for jumping in so quickly to at least calm the rampant rumors. It is odd that the internet can go out of control from omissions as well as bold statements. To me it sounds like Aptera will just be using Elaphe's off-the-shelf in-wheel motors, as opposed to having a custom motor that is optimized for efficiency, taking into account Aptera's lighter weight (as opposed to 2-3X as heavy crossovers). And they probably are using a standard inverter, as opposed to the custom one that the were going to engineer. Which means that some special features like optimized torque vectoring, will be put on hold. Just as heated seats and a heat pump have been put as future updates.
It's funny that CPC is 2 hours drive from my home and Costamp just 30 min. Not to mention Elaphe, a little more distant at 5 hours. I have more Aptera parts around me than anybody else in the Club! 😆
Yea, but you can't go there and get a peep at the PI build. I recently drove right through Modena on my trip to aptera.solar EU conference in Fulda, Germany, on the 4th of May, but couldn't stop over and have a 10-minute look because it wasn't permitted. Not even Aptera Motors themselves could help me. Sigh!😥
@adimchionyenadum2962 my point is that northern Italy is the perfect place for an Aptera final assembly plant! So it will be less of a hassle to collect mine! 😁
Gosh, I'll be anxiously awaiting Aptera's update on this. That custom hub motor was a key component, there's not really anything else on the market like it that I know of, and without it, I suspect were talking about a TON of re-engineering. Hopefully if it's the worst case scenario and Elaphe is out, they have someone lined up who's been quietly working on hub motors and has the capital to tool up a line for Aptera. Cherry? 🤞
Aptera had done a lot of re-engineering of the Elaphe M700 motor, including reducing parts count and changing the winding and torque curve They always said they would eventually manufacture the motors in the US.
@@WyndStryke I could be like WAY OFF BASE here. I'm not that plugged into this industry. So please correct me if I'm wrong :D But from what I understand, were talking reworking/validating the motor controller and its integration with the rest of their systems, suspension, wheel selection, redoing the wheel pants; etc for those two options. I assume this given their differences in weight, size, and number of phases on the motor coils/driving strategy vs Elaphe's. I doubt cooling system would have to change other than a few tweaks though. If that's the case, hopefully they have had a good amount of time to already make whatever changes they needed. So if they announce Elaphe is out, it's more like "hey, yeah were using these instead and here is how its already integrated into the new PI vehicle; lets take it for a ride!" VS, "were working with our new supplier to integrate this new and improved motor option as fast as we can to get ready for production"
@@tylerreeves8026 IMO protean would be an easier retrofit than the Mobis UniWheel, the protean is much closer to the Elaphe in terms of the packaging. But I don't think either will be needed, my personal guess is that Elaphe isn't going to be manufacturing the motor themselves, and Aptera will be using a third-party to make it. Maybe FoxConn who were involved with Lordstown before. If this theory is right, Elaphe would no longer be the supplier (just the designer) and disappears off the supplying partner list.
I know for a fact from my March 22 visit that Aptera has some issues with the Elaphe motor. We were told to wait for an official announcement before posting anything. 😮 but I think they’re making the right decision to get vehicles out sooner than later.
My guess was pricing and Aptera at least exploring 1 of 6+ alternative hub-motor manufacturers for favorable terms. "Some issues" suggests at least in part, technical issues… correct? (If OK saying, no specifics needed again unless OK.)
@@scottgreathouse2607 Quick web search yielded 9 or 10 companies but reading comments here people have mentioned Proteon and 1 or 2 others several times, some speculating Chery also as a potential supplier.
Some major shifts here which I find unsettling due to the long term relationships with Aptera. I'm thinking specifically of the headlight development with MagWerks LED, and the hub motors with Elaphe. Lighting source changes might only cause delay, but loosing a co-developed hub motor which is larger diameter and lighter weight than typical, could be very difficult to replace. I hope Aptera will speak directly to these soon. Thank you for this information Steve.
Just speculation and companies going out of business is not a joke, but older partners have a higher possibility of no longer being around. Let's hope a down web site is NOT a sign of a lost business.
@@richardryley3660 I agree. Another thought: If Aptera has ownership of the headlight design, it's possible they could have it produced by someone else.
Steve and others have picked up a very valid point in the investor webinar presentation: why is Elaphe not on it? We at @apterasolar had the privilege of having the CEO of Elaphe as our guest during our first European Meeting on May 4th in Fulda (and online). They were so kind to send us a mockup of the M800 in-wheel motor that was developed together with Aptera. As they invited me to Ljubljana (Slovenia) I brought the M800 mockup back and got a tour through their facility and also a test / race track experience. Obviously we spoke about the collaboration between Elaphe and Aptera now and during the last years. Based on Steve's video, I had a call with Elaphe's CEO about three hours ago and we will be releasing our footage around end of next week. I will meet him in Munich next Thursday at a conference and we'll discuss final details of the video to be released in our channel @apterasolar (where you saw us first in Paris touching the first BINC). Maybe meanwhile you want to watch again Aptera Motors February Update starting at 4:30 ...
My *guess* (and it's only a guess) is that they're going to be using a different manufacturer to actually make them, but Elaphe is still the design partner (hence no longer a supplying partner since they won't be making the motor themselves any more). This is based on ChrisM's comment on reddit that Elaphe is still a long-term partner. In terms of other hub motor manufacturers, I can't see them using Mobis UniWheel this close to production. The UniWheel gives lots of interesting capabilities such as individual wheel steering but I'm sure would need a significant redesign of the front suspension. Protean, maybe.
Cherry Automotive was the big surprise for me on this list. Choosing a Chinese company is bound to be controversial given the US government's position in Chinese imports, and Aptera is already partnered with a South Korean company. So I'm sure there is some reason that Aptera chose Cherry Automotive specifically and not some other company. Likewise, there simply aren't that many options other than Elaphe. As you noted, Elaphe has been the primary developer for automotive hub motors, and two of their three customers have gone out of business. So I just assumed that the silence around Elaphe is simply because the hub motors have been finalized since Gamma, and there's been no reason to talk about it. This is the first I've heard that there are discussions going on behind the scenes. This is just speculation, but maybe Cherry Automotive has been looking into hub motors. Costamp could also produce the aluminum parts for the hub motors if Aptera decided to build their own. A more likely possibly is that the hub motor producer has been left off the list because it's not the right time to make that announcement, so as Chris McCannon said, it was intentionally left blank. There has been a surge in speculation that Elaphe has broken ties with Aptera and Aptera will now have to find a new hub motor producer, which is simply not confirmed. This is precisely what Chris warned people not to speculate about. If Aptera has gotten a new hub motor producer, it is far more likely that they already have their new partner, and are just not announcing it yet. I do not want to speculate if Elaphe is in financial trouble, and in fact if they are struggling with the loss of both Lightyear and ,Lordstown I would think Aptera could help them stay afloat. They may have to stick with mini cars and three wheelers for which hub motors are light enough to be practical.
loosing two big buyers probably put Elaphe in the red if they were financing motor dev themself in full or even in part. i'm thinking since there is no big announcement for change or loss of motor supplier, i suspect Elaphe likely been acquired by bigger company and will be supplying same motors to Aptera but now under different brand. Hence no mention of their name, since acquisition is still in process. hopefully i'm not wrong. finding another motor supplier this close to production could mean more delays for testing and validation and whatever changes might be needed.
The point in time we as "outsiders" find out about something does not necessarily have to be the same point in time when Aptera motors made a decision to work or not work anymore with a supplier. Let's wat until either Aptera Motors releases a statement or we at @apterasolar are releasing our footage taking at and with Elaphe some weeks ago - whichever comes first.
Good catch on the Elaphe motors... maybe they were able to buy the rights? machines? to make the motors themselves? just as they are doing with CTNS (CTNS building the production line then shipping to Aptera)?
You are likely correct. Some months ago Chris said Aptera was planning to build the Elaphe motors in Carlsbad. Best guess: as you said, they bought the rights to the designs and to the machinery and are already shipiing stuff to Carlsbad.
@@NorCalSkeptics Maybe they did buy a portion of them beucase Elaphe had lightspeed (lightyear?) and Lordstown bomb on them, maybe quietly going away. Who knows. HOpe we will get better resolution next month.. or sooner
I heard there is a cost issue with Elaphe. Perhaps the Elaphe design will be manufactured i Asia, but in that case, you would think Elaphe would still be mentioned as a partner.
Not that I know of but if you find something let us know. I think we are all dying for an answer to the motor problem. Until we get one I think we have a legitimate right to be concerned.
@@Rich1Rodriguez Can you tell us where we can confirm it? Was it in an interview? On their website? In a news article? More information please on the concerns we have for the motors. Then maybe we can spread this information.
I remember Chris A. mentioned that they had the rights to build the unique designed Elaphe hub motors for the Aptera, so they could have it built by someone else. If they have to ditch Elaphe because they can’t deliver, the company Protean could be an option for them. Sandy interviewed them and went over their technology a few years ago. What I would see as the benefit to their motor is that the power electronics are built into the hub motor.
Chris A mentioned earlier about him not satisfied about the Elaphe (bearing) Seal and the short maintenance interval (i think every 3 years or so) and he wanted it really robust and not require any maintenance at all. Maybe Elaphe was not able to deliver on this customer requirement... also there are rumors of Elaphe "increasing their unit pricing for their IW motors, clearly not the best way to move forward. maybe they are moving to "Protean" instead... or maybe Axial Flux type motor... (just guessing)
Roush did not make the Elio prototypes. They redesigned the suspension to make it work and ready for large volume. That’s all. Techmark built the prototypes. That’s what they do.
2023 SEC filing had additions to the Elaphe partnership where Aptera would gain the ability to license Elaphe's motor tech AFTER they placed a minimum purchase order with Elaphe...I'm guessing Aptera is unwilling/unable to follow through.
I have wondered, how Elaphe felt about Apteras redesign of their motors and what that would do to pricing. Anytime you customize a standard product, you should expect to pay more for it. Chris has always acted like building the motors was no big deal. I do not think that is the right position to have and maybe Elaphe has been slighted by this attitude. If Elaphe is still in the picture, they should have received a prominent spot in that presentation. Aptera needs to address this concern quickly and honestly. I have also wondered about the failure to mention Yazaki. Remember they sent a batch of engineers to Aptera to help design the wire harness. Now that Aptera has a BiNC to wire up, there is no mention of Yazaki. Is Aptera burning bridges?
@@JoeBManco I want to start off by saying, I don't know anything about the vehicle Chery is making. However, not all 3 wheel vehicles are the same. For example Carver and Helix Motors make a 3 wheel vehicle but I don't see it as a competitor to Aptera. I googled 3 wheel Chery vehicle and didn't find anything. Either way I 100% want an answer to the motor "problem" sooner rather than later. Hopefully on or before the next community update.
What ever is going on with the hub motors it's interesting that it took this long into development to present it's self. if it is a cost or manufacturing issue is Aptera just now figuring out the Elaphe motor cost too much and that they are too hard to manufacture. Aren't the PI vehicles almost finished with most of the parts need to complete them already ordered or allready in stock?
YASA was bought out by Mercedes Benz, which makes in-wheel motors. The technology is not new, and adoption has been slow. But having Mercedes buying out a major producer of in-wheel motors shows that it is viable technology. Elaphe has been a company that got left behind by Lordstown, and the pickup truck that was supposed to produce the Endurance. Lightyear gone, so Elaphe is left out? Maybe Aptera with enough money should buy them outright, like Mercedes did for YASA. This needs to be addressed, because without motors, no Aptera
If Aptera were able to pull that off it would definitely move the time line up for producing the motors in the US. However, money would probably be a huge factor. We’ll wait and see what the next announcement will be.
I think they should have disclosed this sooner before I went ahead and invested another $10k. Motors and inverters are what makes the car go! It's a huge deal. I thought that was locked in and looked really solid. I feel like having a battery drive train and a solid controller for that drive train is 90% of car. We have a car with no drive train, cooling isn't even locked in. This is falling apart on me. I hope they have something awesome for replacing it. Solid in hub motors isn't just a commodity that can be sourced from anywhere. Not yet.
Elaphe may not be able to produce in the volume that Aptera will require. Elaphe was listed in the CA energy matching grant. Interesting challenge. Maybe? Maybe not. Alternate view, Elaphe licenses their design to Chery for manufacturing.
Elaphe and Zayaki are missing. Remember, the BINC was here for wiring fittings. If Zayaki is no longer, would the wiring and connectors from someone else would fit? Between Elaphe and Zayaki, I see a one year delay minimum for the production. Remember Delta to 16 PI pivot? That was a full two years delay.
Good point regarding development and systems integration time. And the BINC which we touched in Paris would have to be adjusted. Hard tom imagine as the forms that make the parts at CPC are long done and would require completely new tools - there's no money for that. I assume.
Licensing 2 Chery EV platform by Aptera? Last time I heard from the Aptera Community Forums, it’s only for the HVAC design/tech. Definitely, it’s more than that. I won’t be surprised, if a Chinese supplier to Chery, will be tapped to manufacture the Elaphe/Aptera variant of the M700 hub motor, under license.
I wonder if they are switching to an in board motor instead of Elaphe wheel motors. If so the source might be Cherry. Wheel motors were always problematic. If you remember there was an issue with seals that needed to be serviced every 30K miles, supposedly they fixed that but maybe they couldn't. The bigger issue is that Aptera is already on thin ice with their financing, Elaphe isn't any better off so they would be doubling the risk by relying on Elaphe.
I am afraid the current BINC front cavity would not be able to house a motor and the gear boxes. Furthermore you would have to make new molds. It would be a mess.
worried about parts from china. in the last month 8 chinese electric car dealers had ttheir entire showroom burn to the ground because of electrical fires. burning ev's are a daily sight in china's parking lots... i really hope theyre not relying on this stellar level of tech for aptera. its serious enough to me that i will delay my purchase until i can be sure that my aptera isnt going to be a three wheeled road flare.
In one of Aptera's videos showing the low voltage electrical system bench, I noticed a Chery tag on the motor assist steering column. So, hopefully, we'll be able to source a Chery steering wheel and airbag to replace that godawful yoke.
I agree the yoke is godawful. However, if the vehicle had steer by wire I wouldn't have a problem with it. BUT, it does NOT have steer by wire and I want a steering wheel that won't cause me to get into an accident because I reach for something that isn't there.
The claim was that 97% is in place. I initially assumed they must still be counting on Elaphe or have a substitute in place. But who knows how they calculated the 97%. If they just have a list of parts, some of which are trivial and some vital but all of which count as 1 item, then hub motors might be part of the missing 3%. But in that case, the 97% figure is awfully misleading. Motors are pretty important in a car. :-)
💯 …Fred Flintstone may disagree 😀 But by value (vs count, wt. volume, etc.) in-wheel motors key, and as previously noted, Elaphe motors customized for/by Aptera.
The chart showing the 97% also showed powertrain complete at 100%. So *somebody* has been selected to do the IWM production. That’s what matters to me.
Anything else would be a major change for the rear wheel drive. Ditching IWM completely would make an AWD drive option difficult IMO. While not impossible, a front motor and half-shaft CV joints would be interesting to package in that nosecone. I’d still buy it if FWD and built that way.
Not many American suppliers identified. This is disappointing, and concerning given the geopolitics these days. With the occupant structure coming from Italy and batteries outsourced the local US content will be very low. That's a recipe for disaster if the US cranks up their protectionist stance.
Hopefully, if there is a new supplier for the hub motors, they'll be able to squeeze a little more power out of the motors than the downgraded Elaphes. I wonder if that was part of the mystery.
It is likely that the joint Aptera/Elaphe motor will be licensed to be built by a 3rd party. This leaves an untested motor and lots of questions. The hub motors are a key element to the Aptera vehicle. Speculation and perception can kill a company. The absence of Elaphe in the presentation and that it was not addressed only fuels the negative. Aptera typically makes announcements on Fridays so hopefully they will address it tomorrow. If I were investing any more into Aptera, I would definitely be holding until some explanation is made. Chris's body language was very much out of character during the presentation and also in the CNN interview. While the Elaphe news is not new news to Chris, I am starting to wonder if our timelines are about to shift once again. If we are not seeing a functional PI build by the end of August and some vehicles go to customers by the end of 2024, I don't see how Aptera will be able to keep the lights on. The only thing worse than bad news is bad news late, when you can't do anything about it. Hopefully this is NOT the case with Aptera but I really hope they douse the flame on this very quickly. The WSJ article is not going to help anything.
Concur! The Elaphe issue is definitely a major fly in the ointment of a believable production schedule and the potential future viability of Aptera. Also since this major issue is a surprise and without clarification, significantly weakens Aptera's claim of being open. Now two unresolved MAJOR issues, Timely $65M funding and status of inwheel motors.
@@johnmalcom9159 Elaphe has some pretty nice innovative motor technology, but it's not like electric motors are new. There are plenty of companies that can produce electric motors for Aptera, and I am sure they will have no problems sourcing them. It has been stated that Aptera does retain the rights to produce their own motors using the Elaphe tech if it becomes necessary.
"If I were investing any more into Aptera, I would definitely be holding until some explanation is made." 💯 Explanation of this KEY component and details on terms/possible dilution of shares with US-Capital deal.
@@patrickmclean8617 per Chris's slides in the presentation, the drivetrain is 100% sourced. If a 3rd party is making the hub motors, that is fine but have they been tested? There is such a huge potential for further delays and while I completely understand the development process has delays, I don't see how they will keep the lights on if they have more delays. I also see that Aptera is short at least $45M in their need for money to go into production. $65 is for equipment and materials for production. They will see a burn rate again at $5M per month, 9 months, at least and you easily have $45M. I was truly hope the presentation was going to answer more questions than it created. Unfortunately, it did not. Funding is still not secured, only that they are working with US Capital Global to secure funding. That is very different than having funding to proceed.
The uncertainty on such a critical part makes me wonder if they can hit their timelines. The PI vehicles will need to drive with something that's "production intent" for most of the tests to be even started. I'm not sure if would want an Aptera without a hub motor.
Awfulizing is so much fun! There is no way they are making the Aptera without hub motors. It would require a complete re-design of already proven systems and structures. Not to worry.
"Aptera without a hub motor" …if suggesting pedals, no thanks I’ll stick to my Bianchi road/race bike 😀 Meanwhile hopefully the takeaway from all this speculation is clarification is important as I’m sure I’m not alone in considering further investment b4 close of accelerator program…. In TWO weeks!
I googled do U.S. Automakers use any Chinese made parts and got this as one of the responses. "Yes. There are hundreds of Chinese companies with office in the US selling components used by car manufacturers, and the trade is worth tens of billions.:
Very little efficiency by shipping rolling chassis across the ocean in containers and then having to ship them nearly forty miles from the nearest port to Carlsbad. All credit for highlighting Elpahe was missing from the webinar actually belongs to that odd Aussie channel that Aptera fans dislike. He picked it up the day of the webinar. I am the poster on Reddit who first asked what happened to Elaphe and I posted the Sandy Munro interview from August 2023 where he flat out stated Aptera could not get the motors. Aptera of course went into full panic mode over it but never once did they ask Sandy to retract his statement. The point is, Aptera knows you will parrot any line they offer up because you are beyond questioning them. My favorite part is watching all the sycophants line up one day to dismiss Sandy's comments as from someone not knowing anything and then the next day using Sandy's position to validate Aptera - cannot have it both ways guys.
Do you have a timestamp on that? Otherwise, kindly give me credit for noticing the Elaphe omission 😀 Seriously, August 2023 Munro comment interesting, missed that then.
@@JoeBManco JoeB(no)Manco (formerly trickey-bikey-boy) said: "Bottom line, you can't have a car without some way of making it move." No $ h l t Sherlock. Bottom line, no, really, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
They won't be able to as they are manufacturing in USA. They shouldn't fear the Union anyway as they should treat the workers fairly, pay them fairly, and understand unions represent their interests which the business is (usually) in direct opposition to, but they don't have to be.
Italy (Giorgia Meloni), Hungary(Viktor Orbán), China (Xi Jinping), Saudi Arabia (Mohammed bin Salman Al Saud). Why is Aptera partnering with so many countries teetering [furthest] on the authoritarianism spectrum? Its highly concerning to me, and calls into question their ability for longer term stability and success choosing to partner with such unstable regions.
Steve, I alluded to this months ago. and I gave you my phone number to discuss it but I did not hear from you. Let me know if you want to talk it over and I’ll give you my number again.
@@johnmalcom9159 Prior post he indicated some direct info/comments from Chris and also the potential sensitivity of getting ahead of an Aptera disclosure… 100% apt and sure he/Steve would clear if/what can be said 1st.
If this company is all about efficiency and sustainability why are they not planning on offering a single rear motor version? 1. Cheaper 2. Most Efficient 3. Less Resources 4. Already previous proven rear wheel drive 3 wheelers on the market. 5. Easier to Manufacture
Alas, Aptera isn't all about efficiency and sustainability; it's about selling dreams and whizzy techie toys. Just like every other EV manufacturer to date.😞
@@EleanorPeterson it's ok if they do it in the beginning, that's how the generate a lot of cash to become eventually profitable. But why are they not offering that option at all?
It would have terrible traction in inclement weather. The front wheel, two motor, option that they plan to offer makes much more sense. If I recall, the Aptera has a 60/40 front weight bias.
@@JoeBManco well Aptera is about efficiency. It doesn’t need to be 0-60 in 6 seconds. Base Toyota Corolla does 0-60 in 10 seconds. Most important factor is the Polaris on an all season tire or summer tire? 🛞
I was shocked and dismayed, when I found out the information. But I support whatever Aptera has to do to get some vehicles on the road. Hopefully plan A comes back soon.
The fact that Chris says to not over speculate, I don't think means they are fully out of the picture. In fact, it's possible it's something positive. No need to cast gloom and Doom just yet, be patient and let's see what comes of it.
Until we get an answer we have legitimate right to be concerned. Hopefully we get good news on the motor problem before or during the next community update.
@@Fairburne69 it's the internet. You have a right to say whatever you want. I'm just advising you to not start on the negative side of this. Because we really don't know what it means. It's just new info.
@@MrStrife622 I agree. I'm hopeful they will get it right. I want them to get it right. I'm concerned because we don't have the answers. I'm currently sitting on the fence leaning towards the positive when it comes to this particular topic. Nothing would make me happier then someone providing the information about the current state of the motors. Then we could spread the good news and quell any concerns others might be having and shut up the grifters.
Elaphe remains a valued partner in our journey. Due to market constraints last year, we paused some custom engineering projects to explore off-the-shelf solutions that require less capital and offer a faster time to market, while retaining our efficiency ethos. We will have more to share on our production drivetrain soon.
“In our journey” sounds past tense. It appears that 1) Aptera were using Elaphe motors 2) that to modify them became uneconomical 3) a new supplier has been found (Chery?) 4) and perhaps the future could include engineering their own motors using Elaphe’s tech.
I look forward to the announcement.
When do you plan on showing the heater exchanger that’s replacing belly cooling?
@@andrewmclean1239"remains" sounds pretty present tense though. Just wait for them to provide the details
I wonder if Orbis is actually close to producing anything, they're local to Aptera I think.
Thanks for jumping in so quickly to at least calm the rampant rumors. It is odd that the internet can go out of control from omissions as well as bold statements. To me it sounds like Aptera will just be using Elaphe's off-the-shelf in-wheel motors, as opposed to having a custom motor that is optimized for efficiency, taking into account Aptera's lighter weight (as opposed to 2-3X as heavy crossovers). And they probably are using a standard inverter, as opposed to the custom one that the were going to engineer. Which means that some special features like optimized torque vectoring, will be put on hold. Just as heated seats and a heat pump have been put as future updates.
It's funny that CPC is 2 hours drive from my home and Costamp just 30 min.
Not to mention Elaphe, a little more distant at 5 hours.
I have more Aptera parts around me than anybody else in the Club! 😆
At least by volume! 🤣
Yea, but you can't go there and get a peep at the PI build. I recently drove right through Modena on my trip to aptera.solar EU conference in Fulda, Germany, on the 4th of May, but couldn't stop over and have a 10-minute look because it wasn't permitted. Not even Aptera Motors themselves could help me. Sigh!😥
@adimchionyenadum2962 my point is that northern Italy is the perfect place for an Aptera final assembly plant!
So it will be less of a hassle to collect mine! 😁
I live 22 miles from the Carlsbad assembly plant
@dr.jerrywolfe1289 as I mentioned, there's more Aptera around me, at the moment! 🤣
Gosh, I'll be anxiously awaiting Aptera's update on this.
That custom hub motor was a key component, there's not really anything else on the market like it that I know of, and without it, I suspect were talking about a TON of re-engineering.
Hopefully if it's the worst case scenario and Elaphe is out, they have someone lined up who's been quietly working on hub motors and has the capital to tool up a line for Aptera. Cherry? 🤞
There are two others, Protean, and the Mobis UniWheel.
Aptera had done a lot of re-engineering of the Elaphe M700 motor, including reducing parts count and changing the winding and torque curve They always said they would eventually manufacture the motors in the US.
@@WyndStryke I could be like WAY OFF BASE here. I'm not that plugged into this industry. So please correct me if I'm wrong :D
But from what I understand, were talking reworking/validating the motor controller and its integration with the rest of their systems, suspension, wheel selection, redoing the wheel pants; etc for those two options. I assume this given their differences in weight, size, and number of phases on the motor coils/driving strategy vs Elaphe's. I doubt cooling system would have to change other than a few tweaks though.
If that's the case, hopefully they have had a good amount of time to already make whatever changes they needed. So if they announce Elaphe is out, it's more like "hey, yeah were using these instead and here is how its already integrated into the new PI vehicle; lets take it for a ride!"
VS, "were working with our new supplier to integrate this new and improved motor option as fast as we can to get ready for production"
@@tylerreeves8026 IMO protean would be an easier retrofit than the Mobis UniWheel, the protean is much closer to the Elaphe in terms of the packaging. But I don't think either will be needed, my personal guess is that Elaphe isn't going to be manufacturing the motor themselves, and Aptera will be using a third-party to make it. Maybe FoxConn who were involved with Lordstown before. If this theory is right, Elaphe would no longer be the supplier (just the designer) and disappears off the supplying partner list.
@@WyndStryke I like that theory and it makes a lot of sense!
I know for a fact from my March 22 visit that Aptera has some issues with the Elaphe motor. We were told to wait for an official announcement before posting anything. 😮 but I think they’re making the right decision to get vehicles out sooner than later.
My guess was pricing and Aptera at least exploring 1 of 6+ alternative hub-motor manufacturers for favorable terms. "Some issues" suggests at least in part, technical issues… correct? (If OK saying, no specifics needed again unless OK.)
I thought I heard $ for inverter development.
Who are the alternative hub motor manufacturers?
@@scottgreathouse2607 Quick web search yielded 9 or 10 companies but reading comments here people have mentioned Proteon and 1 or 2 others several times, some speculating Chery also as a potential supplier.
@@scottgreathouse2607 I only know of Protean that makes in-wheel motors. There are probably others but I just haven't heard of them (yet).
Some major shifts here which I find unsettling due to the long term relationships with Aptera. I'm thinking specifically of the headlight development with MagWerks LED, and the hub motors with Elaphe. Lighting source changes might only cause delay, but loosing a co-developed hub motor which is larger diameter and lighter weight than typical, could be very difficult to replace. I hope Aptera will speak directly to these soon. Thank you for this information Steve.
Just speculation and companies going out of business is not a joke, but older partners have a higher possibility of no longer being around.
Let's hope a down web site is NOT a sign of a lost business.
@@richardryley3660 I agree. Another thought: If Aptera has ownership of the headlight design, it's possible they could have it produced by someone else.
Steve and others have picked up a very valid point in the investor webinar presentation: why is Elaphe not on it?
We at @apterasolar had the privilege of having the CEO of Elaphe as our guest during our first European Meeting on May 4th in Fulda (and online). They were so kind to send us a mockup of the M800 in-wheel motor that was developed together with Aptera. As they invited me to Ljubljana (Slovenia) I brought the M800 mockup back and got a tour through their facility and also a test / race track experience.
Obviously we spoke about the collaboration between Elaphe and Aptera now and during the last years. Based on Steve's video, I had a call with Elaphe's CEO about three hours ago and we will be releasing our footage around end of next week. I will meet him in Munich next Thursday at a conference and we'll discuss final details of the video to be released in our channel @apterasolar (where you saw us first in Paris touching the first BINC).
Maybe meanwhile you want to watch again Aptera Motors February Update starting at 4:30 ...
Thank you . Yes Chris A. had said the glass on the solar is from an Hungarian supplier, so Hirschler could be that!
3 inboard motors would make it a fun track car - front wheel regen for initial understeer then rear wheel drive as a rudder
My *guess* (and it's only a guess) is that they're going to be using a different manufacturer to actually make them, but Elaphe is still the design partner (hence no longer a supplying partner since they won't be making the motor themselves any more). This is based on ChrisM's comment on reddit that Elaphe is still a long-term partner.
In terms of other hub motor manufacturers, I can't see them using Mobis UniWheel this close to production. The UniWheel gives lots of interesting capabilities such as individual wheel steering but I'm sure would need a significant redesign of the front suspension. Protean, maybe.
2023 SEC filing stated that Aptera will not be able to license Elaphe's motor designs until they buy a minimum amount from Elaphe directly.
Thanks for the update.
Cherry Automotive was the big surprise for me on this list. Choosing a Chinese company is bound to be controversial given the US government's position in Chinese imports, and Aptera is already partnered with a South Korean company. So I'm sure there is some reason that Aptera chose Cherry Automotive specifically and not some other company.
Likewise, there simply aren't that many options other than Elaphe. As you noted, Elaphe has been the primary developer for automotive hub motors, and two of their three customers have gone out of business. So I just assumed that the silence around Elaphe is simply because the hub motors have been finalized since Gamma, and there's been no reason to talk about it. This is the first I've heard that there are discussions going on behind the scenes.
This is just speculation, but maybe Cherry Automotive has been looking into hub motors. Costamp could also produce the aluminum parts for the hub motors if Aptera decided to build their own. A more likely possibly is that the hub motor producer has been left off the list because it's not the right time to make that announcement, so as Chris McCannon said, it was intentionally left blank.
There has been a surge in speculation that Elaphe has broken ties with Aptera and Aptera will now have to find a new hub motor producer, which is simply not confirmed. This is precisely what Chris warned people not to speculate about. If Aptera has gotten a new hub motor producer, it is far more likely that they already have their new partner, and are just not announcing it yet.
I do not want to speculate if Elaphe is in financial trouble, and in fact if they are struggling with the loss of both Lightyear and ,Lordstown I would think Aptera could help them stay afloat. They may have to stick with mini cars and three wheelers for which hub motors are light enough to be practical.
Elaphe is fine - I visited them a few weeks ago. That's not the issue.
With two customers of Elaphe going out of business, they may have not been paid what they are owed and as a result are having money troubles.
loosing two big buyers probably put Elaphe in the red if they were financing motor dev themself in full or even in part. i'm thinking since there is no big announcement for change or loss of motor supplier, i suspect Elaphe likely been acquired by bigger company and will be supplying same motors to Aptera but now under different brand. Hence no mention of their name, since acquisition is still in process. hopefully i'm not wrong. finding another motor supplier this close to production could mean more delays for testing and validation and whatever changes might be needed.
The point in time we as "outsiders" find out about something does not necessarily have to be the same point in time when Aptera motors made a decision to work or not work anymore with a supplier.
Let's wat until either Aptera Motors releases a statement or we at @apterasolar are releasing our footage taking at and with Elaphe some weeks ago - whichever comes first.
Good catch on the Elaphe motors... maybe they were able to buy the rights? machines? to make the motors themselves? just as they are doing with CTNS (CTNS building the production line then shipping to Aptera)?
You are likely correct. Some months ago Chris said Aptera was planning to build the Elaphe motors in Carlsbad. Best guess: as you said, they bought the rights to the designs and to the machinery and are already shipiing stuff to Carlsbad.
@@NorCalSkeptics Maybe they did buy a portion of them beucase Elaphe had lightspeed (lightyear?) and Lordstown bomb on them, maybe quietly going away. Who knows. HOpe we will get better resolution next month.. or sooner
Maxeon is located within Singapore.
I heard there is a cost issue with Elaphe. Perhaps the Elaphe design will be manufactured i Asia, but in that case, you would think Elaphe would still be mentioned as a partner.
Did Aptera say that they would dev the motors inverters in house?
Not that I know of but if you find something let us know. I think we are all dying for an answer to the motor problem. Until we get one I think we have a legitimate right to be concerned.
They did
@@Rich1Rodriguez Can you tell us where we can confirm it?
Was it in an interview?
On their website?
In a news article?
More information please on the concerns we have for the motors. Then maybe we can spread this information.
@@Rich1RodriguezThey did? Can't remember any such thing.
I remember Chris A. mentioned that they had the rights to build the unique designed Elaphe hub motors for the Aptera, so they could have it built by someone else. If they have to ditch Elaphe because they can’t deliver, the company Protean could be an option for them. Sandy interviewed them and went over their technology a few years ago. What I would see as the benefit to their motor is that the power electronics are built into the hub motor.
Chris A mentioned earlier about him not satisfied about the Elaphe (bearing) Seal and the short maintenance interval (i think every 3 years or so) and he wanted it really robust and not require any maintenance at all. Maybe Elaphe was not able to deliver on this customer requirement... also there are rumors of Elaphe "increasing their unit pricing for their IW motors, clearly not the best way to move forward. maybe they are moving to "Protean" instead... or maybe Axial Flux type motor... (just guessing)
I was wondering about Protean myself. No one ever seems to mention them.
Roush also made the Elio prototypes. Oops, shouldn't mention the E word in this context LOL
Roush did not make the Elio prototypes. They redesigned the suspension to make it work and ready for large volume. That’s all. Techmark built the prototypes. That’s what they do.
May be Cherry is doing the in wheel motors???
2023 SEC filing had additions to the Elaphe partnership where Aptera would gain the ability to license Elaphe's motor tech AFTER they placed a minimum purchase order with Elaphe...I'm guessing Aptera is unwilling/unable to follow through.
That caught me off guard. There are two other significant hub motor companies out there. This should be interesting.
I worry a bit about Chery. What would happen if the U.S. decides to add large tarrifs on Chinese car parts?
Chery is not adverse to setting-up satellite operations (done so in Europe) but your point stands b/c of serious delay.
FFS, don’t vote Trump in then. Populist BS doesn’t work in real life.
Maxeon is in Singapore.
I have wondered, how Elaphe felt about Apteras redesign of their motors and what that would do to pricing. Anytime you customize a standard product, you should expect to pay more for it. Chris has always acted like building the motors was no big deal. I do not think that is the right position to have and maybe Elaphe has been slighted by this attitude. If Elaphe is still in the picture, they should have received a prominent spot in that presentation. Aptera needs to address this concern quickly and honestly. I have also wondered about the failure to mention Yazaki. Remember they sent a batch of engineers to Aptera to help design the wire harness. Now that Aptera has a BiNC to wire up, there is no mention of Yazaki. Is Aptera burning bridges?
My guess is Chery will provide the motors. Maybe from it's factory in Spain. Time will tell.
@@JoeBManco I want to start off by saying, I don't know anything about the vehicle Chery is making.
However, not all 3 wheel vehicles are the same.
For example Carver and Helix Motors make a 3 wheel vehicle but I don't see it as a competitor to Aptera.
I googled 3 wheel Chery vehicle and didn't find anything.
Either way I 100% want an answer to the motor "problem" sooner rather than later. Hopefully on or before the next community update.
@@JoeBManco Ok. Thanks.
What ever is going on with the hub motors it's interesting that it took this long into development to present it's self. if it is a cost or manufacturing issue is Aptera just now figuring out the Elaphe motor cost too much and that they are too hard to manufacture. Aren't the PI vehicles almost finished with most of the parts need to complete them already ordered or allready in stock?
YASA was bought out by Mercedes Benz, which makes in-wheel motors. The technology is not new, and adoption has been slow. But having Mercedes buying out a major producer of in-wheel motors shows that it is viable technology. Elaphe has been a company that got left behind by Lordstown, and the pickup truck that was supposed to produce the Endurance. Lightyear gone, so Elaphe is left out? Maybe Aptera with enough money should buy them outright, like Mercedes did for YASA.
This needs to be addressed, because without motors, no Aptera
If Aptera were able to pull that off it would definitely move the time line up for producing the motors in the US. However, money would probably be a huge factor. We’ll wait and see what the next announcement will be.
Elaphe may have taken a financial hit with the collapse of Lordstown.
I hope you are right. YASA also announced an adjustable torque low-energy axial hub motor.
I think they should have disclosed this sooner before I went ahead and invested another $10k. Motors and inverters are what makes the car go! It's a huge deal. I thought that was locked in and looked really solid. I feel like having a battery drive train and a solid controller for that drive train is 90% of car. We have a car with no drive train, cooling isn't even locked in. This is falling apart on me. I hope they have something awesome for replacing it. Solid in hub motors isn't just a commodity that can be sourced from anywhere. Not yet.
They still have access to the motor design from elaphe. The only question is who will build it
Elaphe may not be able to produce in the volume that Aptera will require. Elaphe was listed in the CA energy matching grant. Interesting challenge. Maybe? Maybe not. Alternate view, Elaphe licenses their design to Chery for manufacturing.
Elaphe and Zayaki are missing.
Remember, the BINC was here for wiring fittings. If Zayaki is no longer, would the wiring and connectors from someone else would fit?
Between Elaphe and Zayaki, I see a one year delay minimum for the production.
Remember Delta to 16 PI pivot? That was a full two years delay.
It's Yazaki.
Good point regarding development and systems integration time. And the BINC which we touched in Paris would have to be adjusted. Hard tom imagine as the forms that make the parts at CPC are long done and would require completely new tools - there's no money for that. I assume.
@@glennzajic7318
Thank you.
Vertical integration?
A startup company on a shoestring budget can't afford it.
Hopefully as they start to sell vehicles they can get there.
That requires funds, and they have none.
Licensing 2 Chery EV platform by Aptera? Last time I heard from the Aptera Community Forums, it’s only for the HVAC design/tech. Definitely, it’s more than that. I won’t be surprised, if a Chinese supplier to Chery, will be tapped to manufacture the Elaphe/Aptera variant of the M700 hub motor, under license.
Aptera has changed their lighting supplier.
I wonder if they are switching to an in board motor instead of Elaphe wheel motors. If so the source might be Cherry. Wheel motors were always problematic. If you remember there was an issue with seals that needed to be serviced every 30K miles, supposedly they fixed that but maybe they couldn't. The bigger issue is that Aptera is already on thin ice with their financing, Elaphe isn't any better off so they would be doubling the risk by relying on Elaphe.
I am afraid the current BINC front cavity would not be able to house a motor and the gear boxes. Furthermore you would have to make new molds. It would be a mess.
My blind guess is that Protean is in. Munroe did a couple videos on them a year or two ago and they seem to be working with them otherwise.
I begged Elaphe to supply me 8 motors a year for a business idea. If they did sign me up. I could have saved them 😂😂😂
worried about parts from china. in the last month 8 chinese electric car dealers had ttheir entire showroom burn to the ground because of electrical fires. burning ev's are a daily sight in china's parking lots... i really hope theyre not relying on this stellar level of tech for aptera. its serious enough to me that i will delay my purchase until i can be sure that my aptera isnt going to be a three wheeled road flare.
I think they are getting cable assemblies from Chery automotive
In one of Aptera's videos showing the low voltage electrical system bench, I noticed a Chery tag on the motor assist steering column. So, hopefully, we'll be able to source a Chery steering wheel and airbag to replace that godawful yoke.
I agree the yoke is godawful.
However, if the vehicle had steer by wire I wouldn't have a problem with it.
BUT, it does NOT have steer by wire and I want a steering wheel that won't cause me to get into an accident because I reach for something that isn't there.
Chery: latches
The claim was that 97% is in place. I initially assumed they must still be counting on Elaphe or have a substitute in place. But who knows how they calculated the 97%. If they just have a list of parts, some of which are trivial and some vital but all of which count as 1 item, then hub motors might be part of the missing 3%. But in that case, the 97% figure is awfully misleading. Motors are pretty important in a car. :-)
💯 …Fred Flintstone may disagree 😀 But by value (vs count, wt. volume, etc.) in-wheel motors key, and as previously noted, Elaphe motors customized for/by Aptera.
The chart showing the 97% also showed powertrain complete at 100%. So *somebody* has been selected to do the IWM production. That’s what matters to me.
@@JayGrant-hi5ms good catch
@@JayGrant-hi5mswhat makes you sure motors are in-wheel 😢?
Anything else would be a major change for the rear wheel drive. Ditching IWM completely would make an AWD drive option difficult IMO. While not impossible, a front motor and half-shaft CV joints would be interesting to package in that nosecone.
I’d still buy it if FWD and built that way.
Not many American suppliers identified. This is disappointing, and concerning given the geopolitics these days. With the occupant structure coming from Italy and batteries outsourced the local US content will be very low. That's a recipe for disaster if the US cranks up their protectionist stance.
Hopefully, if there is a new supplier for the hub motors, they'll be able to squeeze a little more power out of the motors than the downgraded Elaphes. I wonder if that was part of the mystery.
Because of all the meandering around the question, I'm guessing that Elaphe and Aptera will eventually merge.
Lack of Elaphe is scary
Aptera still has a partnership with Elaphe according to Chris M. but maybe not in the LE.
It is likely that the joint Aptera/Elaphe motor will be licensed to be built by a 3rd party. This leaves an untested motor and lots of questions. The hub motors are a key element to the Aptera vehicle. Speculation and perception can kill a company. The absence of Elaphe in the presentation and that it was not addressed only fuels the negative. Aptera typically makes announcements on Fridays so hopefully they will address it tomorrow. If I were investing any more into Aptera, I would definitely be holding until some explanation is made.
Chris's body language was very much out of character during the presentation and also in the CNN interview. While the Elaphe news is not new news to Chris, I am starting to wonder if our timelines are about to shift once again. If we are not seeing a functional PI build by the end of August and some vehicles go to customers by the end of 2024, I don't see how Aptera will be able to keep the lights on.
The only thing worse than bad news is bad news late, when you can't do anything about it. Hopefully this is NOT the case with Aptera but I really hope they douse the flame on this very quickly. The WSJ article is not going to help anything.
Concur! The Elaphe issue is definitely a major fly in the ointment of a believable production schedule and the potential future viability of Aptera. Also since this major issue is a surprise and without clarification, significantly weakens Aptera's claim of being open. Now two unresolved MAJOR issues, Timely $65M funding and status of inwheel motors.
@@johnmalcom9159 Elaphe has some pretty nice innovative motor technology, but it's not like electric motors are new. There are plenty of companies that can produce electric motors for Aptera, and I am sure they will have no problems sourcing them. It has been stated that Aptera does retain the rights to produce their own motors using the Elaphe tech if it becomes necessary.
"If I were investing any more into Aptera, I would definitely be holding until some explanation is made." 💯 Explanation of this KEY component and details on terms/possible dilution of shares with US-Capital deal.
@@patrickmclean8617 per Chris's slides in the presentation, the drivetrain is 100% sourced. If a 3rd party is making the hub motors, that is fine but have they been tested? There is such a huge potential for further delays and while I completely understand the development process has delays, I don't see how they will keep the lights on if they have more delays. I also see that Aptera is short at least $45M in their need for money to go into production. $65 is for equipment and materials for production. They will see a burn rate again at $5M per month, 9 months, at least and you easily have $45M.
I was truly hope the presentation was going to answer more questions than it created. Unfortunately, it did not. Funding is still not secured, only that they are working with US Capital Global to secure funding. That is very different than having funding to proceed.
The uncertainty on such a critical part makes me wonder if they can hit their timelines. The PI vehicles will need to drive with something that's "production intent" for most of the tests to be even started.
I'm not sure if would want an Aptera without a hub motor.
Awfulizing is so much fun! There is no way they are making the Aptera without hub motors. It would require a complete re-design of already proven systems and structures. Not to worry.
@@GullWingInnMoclips let's hope that that's the case...
"Aptera without a hub motor" …if suggesting pedals, no thanks I’ll stick to my Bianchi road/race bike 😀 Meanwhile hopefully the takeaway from all this speculation is clarification is important as I’m sure I’m not alone in considering further investment b4 close of accelerator program…. In TWO weeks!
Lack of money is scarier. Burn rate is a problem for all startups.
I don't like that they do business with Chinese now. Likely Chery making the new motor?? I don't like it a bit!
I googled do U.S. Automakers use any Chinese made parts and got this as one of the responses.
"Yes. There are hundreds of Chinese companies with office in the US selling components used by car manufacturers, and the trade is worth tens of billions.:
@@garywozniak7742 because everyone does it wrong it's fine to do it wrong.
I hate this fucked up mindset just as much!
I think Munro deserves more credit than you are giving them.
Very little efficiency by shipping rolling chassis across the ocean in containers and then having to ship them nearly forty miles from the nearest port to Carlsbad.
All credit for highlighting Elpahe was missing from the webinar actually belongs to that odd Aussie channel that Aptera fans dislike. He picked it up the day of the webinar. I am the poster on Reddit who first asked what happened to Elaphe and I posted the Sandy Munro interview from August 2023 where he flat out stated Aptera could not get the motors. Aptera of course went into full panic mode over it but never once did they ask Sandy to retract his statement. The point is, Aptera knows you will parrot any line they offer up because you are beyond questioning them.
My favorite part is watching all the sycophants line up one day to dismiss Sandy's comments as from someone not knowing anything and then the next day using Sandy's position to validate Aptera - cannot have it both ways guys.
Do you have a timestamp on that? Otherwise, kindly give me credit for noticing the Elaphe omission 😀 Seriously, August 2023 Munro comment interesting, missed that then.
I have not seen this video nor have I ever seen any references to it. Could you please provide a link?
@@JoeBManco JoeB(no)Manco (formerly trickey-bikey-boy) said: "Bottom line, you can't have a car without some way of making it move." No $ h l t Sherlock. Bottom line, no, really, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
Avoiding the U.S. Union Autoworkers might be the Raison d'etre...
They won't be able to as they are manufacturing in USA. They shouldn't fear the Union anyway as they should treat the workers fairly, pay them fairly, and understand unions represent their interests which the business is (usually) in direct opposition to, but they don't have to be.
Italy (Giorgia Meloni), Hungary(Viktor Orbán), China (Xi Jinping), Saudi Arabia (Mohammed bin Salman Al Saud). Why is Aptera partnering with so many countries teetering [furthest] on the authoritarianism spectrum? Its highly concerning to me, and calls into question their ability for longer term stability and success choosing to partner with such unstable regions.
Steve, I alluded to this months ago. and I gave you my phone number to discuss it but I did not hear from you. Let me know if you want to talk it over and I’ll give you my number again.
did you email me?
@@ApteraOwnersClub no I made a comment. But I would be glad to email you Is your address available on the site.?
If you are not an Aptera employee, what are your credentials for commenting on the Elephe issue? Important for the community to know.
@@johnmalcom9159 Prior post he indicated some direct info/comments from Chris and also the potential sensitivity of getting ahead of an Aptera disclosure… 100% apt and sure he/Steve would clear if/what can be said 1st.
I had a tour and a question and an answer session with Chris M. Which was recorded by Michael Kitt who is the one asking the questions
If this company is all about efficiency and sustainability why are they not planning on offering a single rear motor version?
1. Cheaper
2. Most Efficient
3. Less Resources
4. Already previous proven rear wheel drive 3 wheelers on the market.
5. Easier to Manufacture
Alas, Aptera isn't all about efficiency and sustainability; it's about selling dreams and whizzy techie toys. Just like every other EV manufacturer to date.😞
@@EleanorPeterson it's ok if they do it in the beginning, that's how the generate a lot of cash to become eventually profitable. But why are they not offering that option at all?
It would have terrible traction in inclement weather. The front wheel, two motor, option that they plan to offer makes much more sense. If I recall, the Aptera has a 60/40 front weight bias.
@@garywozniak7742 doesn’t seem that the Polaris sling shot has traction issues day to day. And it has similar vehicle dynamics
@@JoeBManco well Aptera is about efficiency. It doesn’t need to be 0-60 in 6 seconds. Base Toyota Corolla does 0-60 in 10 seconds. Most important factor is the Polaris on an all season tire or summer tire? 🛞
I’ve been vocal about the motors for months. This is damaging.
I was shocked and dismayed, when I found out the information. But I support whatever Aptera has to do to get some vehicles on the road. Hopefully plan A comes back soon.
The fact that Chris says to not over speculate, I don't think means they are fully out of the picture. In fact, it's possible it's something positive.
No need to cast gloom and Doom just yet, be patient and let's see what comes of it.
Until we get an answer we have legitimate right to be concerned.
Hopefully we get good news on the motor problem before or during the next community update.
@@Fairburne69 it's the internet. You have a right to say whatever you want. I'm just advising you to not start on the negative side of this. Because we really don't know what it means. It's just new info.
@@MrStrife622 I agree. I'm hopeful they will get it right. I want them to get it right. I'm concerned because we don't have the answers.
I'm currently sitting on the fence leaning towards the positive when it comes to this particular topic.
Nothing would make me happier then someone providing the information about the current state of the motors. Then we could spread the good news and quell any concerns others might be having and shut up the grifters.