BEST SLEEPING PAD for Cold // Xtherm vs DownMat vs Ether Light XT Extreme
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- Опубликовано: 4 сен 2024
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Thermarest X-Therm: geni.us/xtherm
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Exped DownMat 7: geni.us/DownMa...
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This is probably the best comparative sleeping pad video I've ever seen on RUclips! Very well done! Personally, my preference is to use a 3 season pad all year, and just add foam layers beneath in winter. For snow camping I use Nemo Tensor Insulated+Thermarest Z-Lite+ Gossmer Gear Thinlite1/8". The combined stack provides an R-value of 6, and I don't need to buy more than one inflatable pad.
You are no doubt the best outdoor gear reviewer on RUclips Justin!
This was the most thorough and precise video on this subject matter that I’ve seen. Great job. From my experience down to -8F, you are correct in your science. Thanks damn good
Hey Justin, You can deflate the Exped Mat by inserting the toggle attach with the elastic in the valve instead of using your finger. I makes the deflation way easier. I took me some time to understand that too!
Yes, that's why the toggle is there. I have an Xtherm and a summer Exped pad, once you know the Exped is much faster to inflate and deflate than the Thermarest. The Exped inflation bag is also great because it is big enough to line my pack and fit all my clothes and sleep gear. This saves me bringing a pack liner/cover separately. It's also very flexible so a light breeze easily fills the Exped pump sack. Thermarest pads are still better quality, but I find the Exped more convenient.
I came in here to say this lol
Check out the rectangular DownMat. Yes it's a couple ounces heavier but it addresses your major critiques - it has a dedicated deflate valve and the outer baffles are filled. Also with the down shift you can easily see it by holding the inflated pad up to the sun or over a headlamp. A few taps and shakes are inflation and its good to go - just like fluffing a down bag.
As an active side sleeper my experience with the Etherlight XT Extreme is that it’s a really cold pad.
I’ve taken it out twice in the past few weeks with low temps of -6C and -3C. I was cold both nights. For me it only works well down to 0C, which in my opinion is really disappointing for such a big and heavy pad. The last time I even inflated it so much it became uncomfortable. In milder temps it’s a superbly comfortable pad though.
What's your pad of choice? I'm a side sleeper and want a winter pad
To all the other gear reviewers out there, this guy is KING! Great info. So appreciate your videos. Concise and science based with some actual experience thrown in too. Adore your channel! Thank you!!!
Exped really stands behind their products: My DownMat UL 7 failed after 10+ years, and they just sent me a brand new Ultra 7R to replace it. That's more than double the 5 year warranty! Both new and old are rectangular 72x20" down-filled pads, and neither have any of the problems you had:
- There is down insulation in every part of the pad, including the two larger diameter side baffles - the air filled regions are probably limited to mummy-shaped pads.
- There are separate inflate and deflate ports, making deflation quick and easy.
- The cold spots where there's no down are almost certainly because your pad is new, as I explain below.
It's obviously critical that the down be uniformly distributed. You can actually see the down if you look through the pad into strong sunlight. It's also easy to feel the down when you roll up the pad, as every part of the pad should compress to about the same thickness. Exped recommends storing the pad laying flat with both valves open, so the down should remain evenly distributed once you get the clumps out.
My old pad has had evenly distributed down for as long as I can remember, with no cold spots. My new pad had lots of clumping when I first inflated it, with at least half the space being completely empty. Hardly surprising given that the down was compressed since the pad left the factory. The pad comes with an instruction sheet that says: "to ensure the down insulation stays optimally-distributed, periodically shake and tap the surface of the mat whilst it is half-inflated". There's a 2D bar code you can scan to see this video demonstrating how to do this: ruclips.net/video/luAfJa0jtKY/видео.html. I just tried this, and it works very well, breaking up the clumps and filling the empty spaces. You should only have to do this once if you store your pad properly.
My Exped is the Downmat 9, from a couple of years ago. It's square cut instead of mummy cut. It has a dual valve, one for inflation and one for deflation, so it doesn't have the deflation problem you found. I also found that technique matters with the inflation bag, but I love it once I figured it out. The big opening makes it easy to hold open and flap a couple of times and fill it up with air like you do with a new garbage bag after you take the trash out. I don't try to roll the top like you were doing, I grasp it in my hand just below the opening like I'm choking it, then I bear hug it to push the air through. I find it very quick and easy to use with this method. It's comfortable and warm, but heavy. I've been wanting to try the Etherlight to see if I could get similar warmth and comfort with lighter weight. The X-Therm is just too thin and crunchy sounding for me.
Yeah, I just got back from an REI store, and after laying on the X-Therm, there is no way I could sleep on such a noisy pad. I would much rather carry a little more weight for a quieter pad.
I am pondering the Exped Ultra 7R for winter camping. Based on your experience with the 9, do you recommend this option for me?
@@Jonnyvids14 I've never tried the newer 7R in person so I can only really comment with experience on the Downmat 9. But with that in mind. The weight is really the only thing I can find to complain about it. It's warm, comfortable, and easy to inflate once you get the hang of it. All of my best nights of sleep in the wilderness have been on that pad.
@@musubk
Thanks Jason.
Your best video, Mix of scientific testing AND practical outdoor experience. Brilliant!
Thanks for the breakdown - This really helped explain a lot of my issues being cold with the Ether XT Extreme. I'll definitely be picking up the Xtherm, if I can find one :p
You don't have to constantly push the valve on Exped. You just insert the puller into the valve and it stays open so you can deflate the pad quickly
Yeah, huge miss in this video. It's kind of obvious.
If the valve is the most important factor to you with a sleeping pad, then maybe a huge miss. The Exped valve is still the worst of the bunch, even when you pull the flap out to deflate.
Used one exped pad for more than ten years. Now I got two: one three season and one four season (the ten year old one). They never failed me yet! As MP says you just insert the puller. Works perfect!
@@JustinOutdoors The wee plastic tag is there to use to keep it open. Works fine and it stops down coming out. The down mat 5m is less warm but probably the most comfortable mat I have ever used. The long tubes cradle you.
Somehow I get the feeling you started off with a downer on the exped.
I have the Exped Synmat Winter HL M and it has the same valve. To deflate it you just pull on that little green bit that's poking out of the center and it pops the green bit halfway out, allowing you to simply lay on the mat and roll it to deflate it like the others. You definitely do not have to push it in the whole time.
Very informative video and really appreciate your “user oriented “ review format vs simply regurgitate manufacturers specs.
Absolutely the most informative pad video ever.
Comfort is more important to me and the winters here in Tennessee don't get as cold as where are you are living. Thanks for the comparisons and I am going to buy the Ether Light XT Extreme. This will be my 3rd pad to try out and I am hoping I will be able to sleep the whole night!
Breath of fresh air, you are like the America's Test Kitchen or Consumer Reports of camping gadgets.
Thorough and concise as ever Justin. Will definitely use this as a reference.
Best comprehensive and factbased comparing review for wintermats I have ever seen. Big Up!
For me, on the Thermarest pump sack, I used the draw cord to close the bag slightly. Blowing into it from about 4-5 inches away creates air pressure that easily inflates the bag (bernoulli effect?). Since the opening is already small, it's easy to close it up and squeeze the air through the valve.
Great tip!
Excellent tip, something I'll be doing with my XTherm from now on.
Warm Regards from Reno, Nevada U.S.A.
Would be very interesting to see the XT Extreme tested with an S2S quilt, which are designed to surround the edges of the pad. Insulating the pad edges more might help with convective heat loss.
Yeah, I've got the Exped. It's got cold spots. But, I value the quieter nature of it so I keep reflectix under it when temps are below freezing.
Thanks for including Exped! A quick note, maybe you know but most of Exped's sleeping pads (including my Downmat UL 7) have separate inflate/deflate valves. Looks like it may be only the HL line that has the single valve. But even with dual valves, it's still slow to deflate. My girlfriend has Ether light XT and I'm so jealous lol
Wow man, your videos get better every time. So much detail and effort, thanks for the insights
The Exped Pump bag is the best of the three.
- It is the fastest and easiest to inflate the mat with. This becomes clear once you switch bag between the STS and Exped mat (the fit both pads).
- It is lighter than STS bag.
- It is 100%waterproof and seam taped. You can pack the mat in the bag, and it stays dry in the rain, in your canoe and your kayak.
- It is the easiest bag to fit the pad in. Fold the mat in the middle, roll it, and put it in the bottom of the bag.
I switched my STS bag to a Exped Schnozzle bag (size M is standard). Much better 👍
I've never used the Downmat but I do have the 2 Exoed Synmats that I've had at 20° and slightly below and never had an issue.
Very nice video! I just tested my sea to summit etherlight extreme in about -10C with a closed cell mat under.. and I was cold during the night! Very dissapointing! Your video explained why.. I toss and turn alot. Will test my exped synmat 9 lw next.
I've given mine 4 nights now and every night was cold below me. from -3C (26F) down to -23C (-9F) and I had a CCF pad underneath. My bags rated down to -30C (-25F) The only time I was warm was when I put my CCF mat on top of the EitherXT Extreme Pad. I move around but I think its due to the ambient temperature and a bit of a breeze when I was tarp camping. ill be picking p the Xtherm if I can find one
@@XanderBudnick I have since tested my exped synmat 9 LW with a Hennessy double bubble wrap (
You don't have to hold the Exped valve with finger to deflate. Touch the stem back into the valve to hold the flap open.
Yea Justin you missed the mark here. The Exped is the best inflation system of the lot. The pad comes with a plastic dongle hooked to the valve cover that holds the flapper open for deflation. It's not as slick as a dump valve but it works essentially the same and it's one less valve seal to fail. The schnozzel pump sack also doubles as a roll top dry bag which none of the other pad inflation sacks can do so they're dead weight. They even come in sizes large enough to use as a full pack liner. I like mine so much I bought the adapter to use it with Thermarest pads.
The insulation complaints are fair but you aren't really suppose to sleep on the edges. The outer two baffles are enlarged to keep you between them and stop you from rolling off. After you inflate the pad you're suppose to shake it a few times to redistribute the down. I just don't like the sharp taper their mummy pads have. I think you'd of liked their rectangular pad much better.
Also a slight addendum on the warranty. On paper it's 5 years but they fairly regularly replace pads with something like a baffle failure even after 10 years. I think the worst customer service I've seen someone get out of warranty was a 40% off coupon after they punctured their pad.
For a winter pad though it's impossible to ignore the massive weight advantage the Xtherm has over the other two. Particularly in the rectangular large sizes. The S2S Etremes in particularly are so bad for weight and pack volume they're basically best for base camp or car camp mats. I briefly had both and for rectangular large the S2S was a full 12oz heavier than the Xtherm and has the pack volume of a sleeping bag. You could haul it in a pulk but you won't want it in your backpack
Fair enough on the valve. It's still the worst of the lot! haha. The lack of down in the side baffles of the DownMat is just too much of a compromise in my opinion. I have tried my best to work with the DownMat but can't get there (I've done a bunch of shaking of the pad a well to redistribute the down). I have heard rumors Exped is coming out with a new line of pads, so hopefully that addresses some of the issues they have had in the past.
The Ether Light XT Extreme is barely a worthwhile pad for self-propelled travel, like you said. The size regular is 21.5in wide though and sleeps like a wider pad, so I am willing to take it on trips. Agreed, the size large is just too bulky and heavy.
The Schnozzle also works for the S2S and Tensor.
thermarest is soooo comfy I slept on mine for 2 years solid. Vertical baffles are awful in my opinion and I've had both.
I've even used it in the middle East with 35°c night heat and it was still tolerable.
Thanks for the video. Would you consider doing it again with the pads upside-down on the heat pad because that's the direction of heat transfer they're designed for? Also, what thermal imager did you use? I'm considering building some thermal sensor grids for testing equipment.
The Exped UL series of pads have dual inflate and deflate valves and doesn't have this problem . Unfortunately the HL series doesn't have this. I feel that they could add the deflate valve to the other end of the pad on the HL series.
you make such great videos. answering questions that I have before I can even ask them. Thank you!!
One of my favorite videos of yours! Full of lot of really cool information that isn't just opinion based
The Exped Ultra 7R (new downmat) just came out and I'd be really curious how that stacks up. Some of the negatives this video mentions about the downmat have been addressed in the 7R, like a better valve. Also i have an Etherlight and the Exped and I think the pump bag is 100% better on the exped... the Exped's can double as a dry sack, but the Etherlight one is kind of useless for other purposes besides being an inflation pump bag.
I have the Exped Ultra 7R LW and it's garbage. I don't trust it below 0C. Even at 0C I feel the cold coming through it. It's bulky, heavy and expensive. Save yourself the hassle and just buy an XTherm. That's what I should have done.
This is a really interesting video and I like how you tested them/shared your own experience of winter camping. Thank you!
I have the X-Therm and used it on it's own down to -35C on ski mountaineering trips in the Canadian Rockies and it's amazing, just amazing. Under 500g and super compact? Damn! Combined with my Western Mountaineering Puma, I am warm sleeping at some ridiculously cold temps...
But is it uncomfortable like Justin said it was?
Great video!
Just got back from a colder weather trip, nighttime temps in the low 30s (F), and super damp.
Used an uninsulated pad on top of a CCF pad. Still quite chilly! I usually hammock, but thought I’d “tent it” for old times sake...bad decision for cold weather.
I don’t choose to sleep in a tent very often and after this trip, probably won’t do it again until the summer.
0 degree under quilt and top quilt FTW!
Gotta have the right bottom insulation :)
Appreciate all your hard work and thorough review Justin I just purchased the STS ether can't wait to try it in the cold!!😁✌💚
Read the instruction for the exped valve. To dump air, use your finger on the opposite side of the mat to push the flap in «dump air» position ;)
Thanks for another great video :-)
I have really been waiting for such a video, with test of winter pads, but I really hoped that you would have included the Exped Downmat XP 9 pad in the test, as it is in a stronger material and has a higher r-value, the r-value on that pad is 8, and suitable for -38 ° C and no cold spots issues i think, and the word is, that it's the warmest pad out there..
And the Nemo Tensor Alpine would have been great to see too, among the others.
For sure, there are tons of pads out there! The DownMat 9 is super heavy at over 30oz though and the Tensor Alpine only has an r-value of 4.8.
The DownMat 9 long wide is only 100 grams more than the similar Sea to Summit Rectangular Large, and the DownMat 9 medium is only 55 grams more than the similar Sea to Summit Rectangular Regular, so not much more weight, for a way higher r-value i think.
@@JustinOutdoors .. I enjoy and really appreciate all of your videos! The Sea to Summit is a great pad, but I feel that you used an older version of the Exped. the Exped DownMat XP 9, is their newer version, has a better valve system and insulation r value. I think you should try the newer exped and then give us a better apples to apples feedback on that. Again, keep up the great content!
@@scottdemmy5603 The Exped Downmat is the UL version and the XP is considered to be an 'expedition' version.
@@scottdemmy5603 The HL Downmat and Synmat series has only one inflate/deflate valve. The UL and XP series, which are the rectangular pad, has both valves.
The XP series of the Synmat and Downmat are way more durable with a 75D fabric face. They also have a .5-1 better R value.
For car winter camping the ultimate mat however is the Megmat 15 LXW with an R value of 11.
Great Video, perfect to chose which pad to buy. I chose the ether light extrem, but i take the Women's large, length is enought for me but i like it a little bit wider.
Thanks for the video, I recommend using the Exped Pump sack to compress the sleeping bag, in my case a Marmot Lithium long, and I'm amazed with the result, in fact you can put some more garment and compress it all together, as for the mat I use, the DOWNMAT HL WINTER MW and I could not be happier on my starry nights. greetings from Spain 😁
P.S. For me the deciding factor is noise, I am a very light sleeper. 😅
Thanks Justin, that's was very thorough real world review, very rare with other gear reviews.👍
This was a very good insightful video Justin, well done 👏🏼
great video!!
justin could you also test out EVA mats?
Those are really cheap and actually with EVA30 pretty lightweight (the thin thinlight is pretty popular)
There are some winter EVA mats with 2+cm thickness and the EVA50 from gloetrotter claims to have R 5.4 for a 50€ mat
Can this be true?
Awesome informative video Justin. Keep them coming...
Could you do a companion vid at some point talking about the other factors influencing warmth? E.g. ground temp etc.
awesome vid Justin, finally got a infrared camera :)
Thanks for the review, Justin. Liked and subbed. Cheers.
Hi Justin - I'd love it if you could do a followup that includes the new Nemo Tensor pads with higher R values. How do they compare?
Best backpacking channel
Interesting review. Thanks for the food for thought.
I love the Xtherm but the old valve sucks and I fully agree with that. I hope to get a new one with the new valve. The comfort is okay. I can confirm your experiences with this mat.
Great video! Would it help to put the heat pad on top of the sleeping pads for 10mins then once you take the heat pad off, time how long the sleeping pad retains the heat and also show the hot spots on too of the pads? Also would you add a foam mat like the z-lite into the mix for people who can't afford $200 on a pad they may only use a hand full of times in winter. Adding a z-lite style mat can bump up the r-value of a cheap pad but would be interesting to see how a $30 foam mat holds up against the $200 pads.
I'm looking more at how much heat resistance there is through the pad. I'm not sure placing the pad on top tells a better story. I tried to mimic the ASTM testing standard as best I could without their fancy machine.
Rather than having a dedicated winter pad, I prefer layering, for the following reasons. My Nemo tents are insulated easily gets me down to approximately 20° comfortably in Mid-Atlantic January so the ground has had time to get cold. I then layer that with a thermarest Prolite 4, now called the Pro. Combined the R-value is 6.7. The two reasons I prefer this are
1. Budget. Instead of having to spend money of a top end 3 season and Winter mat I have a top end 3 season mat and a decent back up.
2. Redundancy. Inflatable pads will fail and if the Nemo fails I will still have the insulation from the Prolite.
Now this set up probably only works with the temperature range I winter camp in which is above 0° fahrenheit, typically no lower than the teens.
That sounds like a great system! Layering like that is always a great choice for exactly the reasons you laid out.
My Sea To Summit was cold from the ground in the high 20's 😑
Which pad?
I've heard the insulation is only effective if the pad is fully inflated (like rock hard). Thoughts?
Thanks!
Good review, unfortunately the wide version of the xtherm and xt extreme seem to be back order everywhere in Canada. I tried my my xlite combined with a zlite pad last night in my backward. It was barely enough for -10 Celcius.
I did xlite with close cell pad on the snow, at -17C and I slept fine, I guess the personal perception comes here into picture too
When it comes to winter camping, I don't even consider weight for my pad (within reason). I'd rather carry a little extra weight if it means I'm warmer at night.
Another great and relatable hreakdown
Awesome video! Scratched my nerd itch. I’m a little surprised at the exped with no insulation in the sides. That rules it out immediately for me. And those hot/cold spots make a ton of sense on their performance, but I wonder what is causing them.
The Downmat UL series (the rectangular one) doesn't have this problem and has down in all baffles. It also has a dedicated deflate dump valve.
Great review! Did you try to shake the Exped DownMat a little to get the down to disperse more evenly? From what I understand that should work. (Would still be an inconvenience of the system of course.)
I did! I've tried everything with it. The side baffles are really the biggest factor though.
@@JustinOutdoors thanks for the info! since i am using closed sleeping bags and also always the wide versions of the mats i don't think that will be as much as a problem for me as it was for you with quilt + regular size. This is why the only thing scaring me about buying this mat for winter adventures is the possible down dispersion issue (and not the cold side baffles). (i don't want the extra weight of the sea to summit one and can't stand the sounds of the thermarest, so I feel really pushed towards the exped.)
Thanks for the great info
I just add a foam mat to my sea to summit ether light to my winter system.
For etherlight extreme can it be used comfortably during the summer?
I would love to see your opinion on some of the Big Agnes Insulated pads in comparison.
Working on it!
Nobody speaks about one fact... When you're in the summer, with temps around 30° C at noon and your going for a night to sleep at 5°C in the mountains, is different than when you are in the fall with temps around 10° C and you're going to sleep at 5° C... Our body is adapting to season temperatures, in time...
Exped Synmat winter is better than Exped Downmat HL. I guess its totally 16.
Very interessting test
Would’ve been nice to see the comparison. Too many ads on your channel now to see anything.
I wonder why the exped got such a bad review compared to the others. Exped is one of the go to choices here in Norway, the others are not considered to be very good compared to exped. I wonder what the difference is 😊
Because it doesn't keep me warm and is difficult to use. haha
I want to buy one that will rule them all for all seasons that is durable, and i’m leaning towards xtherm. Toughts?
Great video, specially when it comes to the relativity of measures and what may affect them.
Have you ideas to improve insulation of each of these pads ? Yes, an additional closed cells pad can be put under these pads, but it won't solve the problem of the Sea to Summit pad... How can a lateral insulation can be added ?
I have the s2s. Yesterday I took it to -16C, had a closed cell foam pad on the ground, a mylar blanket in between and s2s on top. I was out with a summer tent so there was a lot of breeze. It did ok. Maybe the lateral heat loss could be reduced by making some kind of mylar rim around it, or maybe use pad straps from a quilt to pull the mylar, reflectix or whatever you have under it up to cover the sides 🤔
I think the designs of the pads could be tweaked to help with insulation
I have the 3 season version of all three of these pads. While using the S2S in colder temps, I sleep on top of a 1/8" Gossamer Gear Thinlight pad. If used on top of the ground, but under the pad, you are correct, it doesn't provide much insulation. I find the ExPed warmer than the S2S even though it has less Rvalue. Justin's explanation is exactly what S2S said to me. I guess its a great pad if you never move around or use it in warmer temps.
If you are not in sub 30 degrees weather would you go with the light xt version of the sea to summit instead of the extreme?
Great video ... Lots of good information ... But I have to ask ... Justin which of these three pads do you take winter camping the majority of the time?
That would be the Xtherm, it's warmth and weight are just too hard to ignore. When not going out in cold Canadian temperatures, the Ether Light XT Extreme's comfort is nice to have.
First and foremost folks need to know the importance of a sleeping pad is paramount, and the wrong choices are the "number one killer of mountaineers/hikers." This is per the GOV/Forest Service.
I use nothing but tTermarest, and a sure fire way to make things work, or to improve r value, is to place something under the tent floor, or under the mat, and this can be most anything you already have in your pack, or nature has many offers.
Extra clothing can be spread out under the mat, and my favorite is to find mosses, grasses, leaves, what nature provides, and actually placing this under the tents footprint, in the area you'll be sleeping or the entire floor. You can do both to add even more warmth!
Before you leave the alpines, heading up to snow and ice, do grab mosses, leaves, and a pound or two can go a long way!
In case of deflation/puncture the x-therm should provide you with at least some insulation/heat because of the thermal layers inside!?
Or am I wrong?
if deflated, the reflective layers will not provide any insulation because they will be in contact with the shell material. Reflective layers need air above or below them in order to prevent radiative heat loss, otherwise they are just conducting.
Could you do the same test with Nemo alpine
It's r-value is so low I don't consider it a cold-weather pad
I think the Hilleberg noeir äxträäm 150gram is the best
Nnäääääääjjjj
Hi ! Great review, exactly what I was looking for as I'm changing my mats for winter expeditions. One question: you say that the Exped downmat7 is 480g but on Exped site and on your rei link, it is stated at 650gr. Is it a different/newer version or a mistake ? Cheers !
They released newer versions since I made this video. The Tensor Extreme will be coming out this fall with an r-value of 8.5, but I am still testing it out. The Xtherm will be hard to beat as my go-to!
@@JustinOutdoors I think I'll go for the XTherm, as it is also possible to pair it with the chair kit, very useful when eating inside the tent for several weeks, on long expeditions.
Thanks for your feedback!
Nice Video! :) do u have any opinions about the longevity of the Pads? For example :
Xthem prone to holes in the inner mylar sheet?
sts exteme synthetic fill prone to loose loft after more and more uses?
I haven't experienced the reflective film deteriorating but I do have synthetic pads that lose a lot of insulative ability after 4-5 years. Not sure if the ether light pads will be as susceptible to that
Toss the Nemo Tensor Alpine in the loop please!!
It if ever gets a higher r-value!
I heard the Nemo makes a good winter sleep pad. Have you reviewed it?
They don't have any sleeping pads with an r-value above 5, which isn't high enough for the winter conditions I head out in.
Sorry but all that tech stuff sounds like blah I’ve used the sea to summit for a while never felt cold I’m sure tents, base layers , and bags should be taken into consideration with these alleged R values I mean they are a factor in warmth that you feel or lack there of
Cool. Wondering, can't you up the R value by putting a pad of some sort below your sleeping pad? I'm interested in the Sea to Summit Comfort Plus, just because its gotten so many good reviews on how comfortable it is. Only has an R value of 4 though. How about putting something like a Theremarest Z Lite or similar closed cell foam pad underneath to up the R value for winter? Of course this increases your carry weight but would be good to have one to sit on around camp anyway.
R-value stacks, so if you put anything with r-value, whether that is a foam pad or another sleeping pad, under your existing sleeping pad, you're going to increase the r-value of the overall system. So if you have a comfort plus with an r-value of 4 and put a nemo switchback under it, which has an r-value of 2, you'll be about at an overall r-value of 2.
@@JustinOutdoors wouldn't that be an overall R-value of 6 than? they two are adding up, correct?
@@coffee-deet Yes, that's what he meant.
I wish you would have got a Nemo alpine to compare too
As I mentioned in another comment. It's 4.8 r-value is not even close to the other pads.
@@JustinOutdoors Don't be afraid. Old timers have been using closed cell foam pads in winter camping for years and I think they are about 1.5 r-value. Try it and see how it goes.
I'm kinda bummed out now as I just bought the Exped. If find it comforable but agree the valve system is not the best. I've heard the S2S Extreme is not really as warm as it claims unless it's fully inflated which does not work for me as a side sleeper and reduces the R value. Thoughts? Furthermore, it seems impossible to buy the Xtherm in Large at the moment with no end in sight to the shortage. One last point -I think it's unfair to have a category called 'quality' and then say one is better or worse than others based on construction such as fabric choices, etc. Designers, Engineers and Marketing need to make compromises to achieve their desired goals. Those choices do not necessarily mean one product has less 'quality' than an other. Quality should address things like de-lamination, leaky valves, microscopic leaks etc.
R-value is directly linked to the pad inflation regardless of the pad. I could do an entire video on quality but have to pick and choose specific things to address. With most products, I think warranty is always the biggest factor. P.S. Exped used film lamination for the air-tight seal while thermarest and s2s use liquid extrusion lamination.
Actually you want it fully inflated especially when side sleeping. When you're laying on your back, your weight is more distributed and can do with less inflation. When you're on your side, the weight concentrates and you need full inflation to keep you from bottoming out. The S2S is certainly the most comfortable in its class, it's the thickest.
@@kke I find it far more comfortable with less inflation when I'm side sleeping. Of course I don't let out so much that I bottom out.
@@JustinOutdoors Right -I returned the Exped based on your review. Now I'm searching for a winter pad but Xtherm's (and even xlights in size Large) seem to be unobtainable with no end in sight to the supply issues. What should I do?? The EL XT Extreme just seems too big, heavy and according to your review fundamentally flawed like the Exped. n Also, a rock-hard inflated XT Extreme would not be comfortable for me since I'm a side sleeper.
wow, thanks for all your videos! i am looking for sleeing mat since 2 weeks now (comparing etc) and whatever i search, i find a video of YOU, thats pretty amazing! subscribed! 😀
not sure if you or the communiy reads comments under 1.5year old videos, but lets try.
i usually dont do winter camping, but now i prepare for the "laugavegur" trek in iceland (august) and think about "upgrading" my gear a bit for possible temperatures below 0celcius at night (possible in iceland in august in the highlands).
for the last 10 years i have used a "self-inflatable" thermarest "trail pro large". it is heavy and bulky. but 10 years ago the technology of today's sleeping mats didn't exist, so that was one of the best mats to buy. i googled the old specs: 1210g! 18x33cm packed! but: 75d(!) r-value 4.0(!). i can say that the 75d seems true, never had any "hole" in it since 10 years, still doing well. but the 4.0r, not sure, seems hard to believe.
the coldest i took the mat to was during the "kungsleden" trek in sweden in early september. i slept "ok" most of the time. just 1 night temperatures dropped to -4celcius. and WOW that night was COLD. i didnt sleep much and just waited for the night to be over, that sucked! i WORRY to have such temperatures in iceland and not having good sleeps..
i have to admit though, that my sleeping bag is also 10years old and has a "comfort" of "+6 to +1" celcius. so maybe i just felt cold because of the sleeping bag... (for "history gear geeks": mammut ajungilak compact spring)
at the moment my favourite to buy is the thermarest xtherm. just because it its the WARMEST. i dont care about the "noise".
but then YOU mentioned something in this video: 5:54 "i've had times where my arm or my leg has fallen asleep". WOW! that's exactly what happens to me EVERY night on my old mat (i never sleep through, difficult to sleep long). i always thought "oh thats just me", but maybe it is a problem of my old mat.
so now i STRUGGLE: xtherm (warmest, 610g) or seatosummit (comfiest, 950g). 300+ grams for the comfort?
Am I looking at the wrong mat on the exped site or is the Downmat 7 just a 5.8 R value?
Personally using the Downmat UL Winter LW which has added an extra deflation valve and has a higher insulation value for a similar weight, also bigger.
the downmat HL 7 is 7.1. The HL versions are much lighter than the UL versions
So is r-value a marketing scam?
Are there any more budget friendly winter pads on the market?
Not with a low weight. Due to patents and the technical difficulties in making pads that are both lightweight and warm, there are very few options out there. For a budget option, your bets bet is to use foam mats under your current pad and/or stack pads. R-value stacks.
Did you really use your phone for heat measurement? Didn't know that was possible, which app did you use? :)
It had a FLiR infrared sensor attached, I just pulled up the image for the photo :)
I’ve got the XPED Downmat 9 - I am convinced I could lay on ice with it and not feel it. R 7.8 if I recall correctly. Heavy, but worth every ounce in the cold weather!!!!! The 9 also has 2 separate valves - 1 for inflating and fine adjusting, and the other for fast-dump deflation.
The UL versions do address some of the issues I encountered but at a significant weight penalty.
curious to know if supplementing with a foam pad would mitigate some of the issues
It would add some r-value. R-values stack, but a lot of foam pads are around 1-2 in r-value.
@@JustinOutdoors how about if they lightly curl up the side - like inside the pad straps for the quilt - to prevent the side to side cold transfer?
Which one would provide the most insulation without inflation?
i.e.- "Oh, no! I've sprung a leak!"
If you're in the conditions when you need one of these pads... They will all give you an uncomfortable cold night.
Probably the ether light xt extreme, but it would be minimal
0° ??? I've uses a zlite a 0°
The warranty argument is invalid, the sea to summit limits it by so many things that it it is actually not worth more than two years. Against that, the Exped's 5 years is pretty good.
I just warrantied a 4 year old sleeping pad from S2S with no issues. Super smooth process.
@@JustinOutdoors What was the defect you were facing?
You can't reflect cold, cold is the absence of warmth.
thanks tips
Yeah sorry no. You have failed. I use the exped down mat 9 wide and it beats all of these hands down.
Tried Them all ?
Is there anything that can be done about the noise of the pads?
A sheet over top might help
Thanks Justin, Big fan here. Sadly, ex Calgarian. Love your content
@@JustinOutdoors
I was thinking maybe a large sleeping bag liner pulled over the top like a sleeve?