Western Rite Orthodoxy: Its History and Its Importance for the Orthodox Church Today | DIH #12
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- Опубликовано: 6 окт 2024
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What is the western rite? Is it canonical? Where did it come from? Why do I keep hearing about western rite Orthodoxy? All these questions and more answered on today's conversation with John.
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I left my Protestant church with anger and dissatisfaction. I found Christ (or better to say Christ found me) in the Orthodox church. That journey has taught me to recapitulate all that is good in the West, and has made it far far easier to for me to converse with other non-Orthodox Christians, and thereby find common ground in Christ.
I think the term you found Christ would be better since Christ already knows everything, huh?
Seek and you shall find.
I left The Last Protestant Church I Was In For The Greek Orthodox Church!!
Thank you so much for having John on the show! It’s wonderful to see the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate receive coverage on RUclips, and I would love to see more discussions with John and WR Orthodox in general.
"Orthodoxy" is not Orthodox, it's false Christianity, as shown here: ruclips.net/video/_Rrzo55G364/видео.html
"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must be Eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies." -St. John Maximovitch
As with all of Orthodoxy, you have to live the Western Rite first before you can understand it and make a judgement call.
I was so blessed to have seven months in Cañon City at Our Lady of St Lawrence under Fr. Abbott Theodore ♥️♥️♥️.
There is so much healing there. The Western Rite is an acquired taste if you are unfamiliar with it, which is a good thing.
Through the prayers of Saint Benedict of Nursia, the Mother of God (Our Lady of St Lawrence) and of all the Saints, Dómine Jesu Christe, Fili Dei miserere nobis.
It's not even Orthodox, it's false Christianity debunked here: ruclips.net/video/_Rrzo55G364/видео.html
Agnus Dei qui tollis peccata mundi miserere nobis
Oooh, my favourite saint. He was a good part of the history of the Western Rite.
Can you tell me where that St. John maximovich quote comes feom
I have attended a WRO church three times. I absolutely adore St. Peter Orthodox Church in Ft. Worth. My home parish of St. Sava in Allen is amazing and I won’t be leaving. But I could easily be at home in WRO as I am more at home with Latin and western culture for several reasons. If most Orthodox churches were WR then there would be far more converts to Holy Orthodoxy. ☦️❤️
"if more Orthodox churches were WR there would be more converts to orthodoxy"
I 100% believe this. Unfortunately, I doubt it will ever happen. I do not understand why Eastern Orthodox seem to treat their form of holy Communion (e.g. common spoon) as a hill to die on. That's my impression, anyway.
After 35 years in orthodoxy I'm heading toward Ukrainian Catholic Church.
@@genemyersmyers6710having started life in the Uniate -I could never go back to loyalty to the Roman church. May God bless and keep you, ❤️☦️
Totally agree, as much as the Orthodox keep the faith as far as theology, things like the common spoon is clearly not the original practice and frankly not a helpful custom for attracting converts @@bddogcatball
@@bddogcatballThat's a bizarre take, the use of liturgical chalice and spoon can be utilized in any liturgical rite. It's not really a hill to die on, it's just the way it is. It's also a way to easily administer both the body and blood which has been completely lost in much of the world, but at the same time it matters little if they don't have the true Eucharist to begin with.
As a high church confessional Lutheran who will be transitioning into Orthodoxy, I really wish there were more Western rite Orthodox Churches for a couple of reasons.
1. I don’t have to completely learn a new liturgical rite. It feels and looks familiar.
2. It’s would make it an easier transition for my kids.
I really like the Eastern rite of St. John Chrysostom, it’s a beautiful liturgy. But if I had a choice I would rather stay in the Western rite … but there is non in my area.
Having Western rite Orthodox Churches would be appealing to many Catholics, Anglicans and Lutherans.
A unified authority under the bishop of Rome makes more sense
@@JJ-cw3nf That would be a hard no. Catholics are the first Protestants.
@@P-el4zd Catholics can trace the Pope to Jesus.
@@JJ-cw3nf
Except he is now in schism and is a heretic.
@@orthonews2176 according to who with what authority?
Rite needs to conform to Church dogmas and for as long as that connection to dogmas is in check I do not see problem with having western rite Orthodoxy.... even though I am cradle eastern rite Orthodox who have never seen any other rite but original Byzantine rite.
It does. Even the Liturgy of St. Tikhon is Anglican/Episcopal in origin but St. Tikhon changed it to reflect Orthodox theology and dogma.
And you can bet your prayer rope that ROCOR ensures it in our Vicariate
History often clouds our understanding of how the Orthodox Church operated. Fo example look at the various Eastern Rite groups in communion with Rome. Originally all of these groups were part of the Orthodox Church but were wrested away during the great Christological councils coupled to the 1054 schism. We had multiple liturgical families but in time only the Byzantine use became the only form of the Liturgy that is used.
There are still many W rite parishes which accepted western heresies such as worshipping a body part of Christ, like his heart, venerating Catholic post schism Saints. So there is no uniform conformity. So I am glad you said this.
@@kyle.hortonExcept when your WR priest venerates the immaculate heart idea, and later RC saints.
As a western person, previously Protestant, I prefer Eastern rite Orthodox. I think the only purpose of the Western rite is to attract Roman Catholics, who feel more comfortable there. The Irish Church was Orthodox until the Norman invasion.
It has nothing to do with "attracting" people. The Western Rite has never been an issue.
I entered the Orthodox Church via the AWRV. My experience is that for a rare few, it's a transition to the ER. Most don't stay WR. The parish I entered through is dying. That's a sad thing because the WR is a beautiful thing that speaks to some people at a very deep level.
We are Western Rite Orthodox here in the Philippines under Met. Anthony (Bondi) of New York.
Oi kapatid!😅😅
Thank you for doing this interview. I'm looking forward to more!
:D
Why no mention of the Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia under Metropolitan John Lobue who have made a major contribution in researching and restoring the pre-Schism Sarum Rite? They have conducted a significant publishing effort in making their Sarum Rite liturgical books available to those serious about Orthodoxy rooted in the pre-Schism West.
Because they are not Orthodox. They are schismatics not recognized by the Church, similar to the Roman Catholic Church just after the great Schism but just going in a different direction.
It would definitely be cool to get more videos on this topic. A lot of websites tend to have dead links or haven't been updated in years. Also there are a number of parishes that pop in and out of existence and news on new parishes would be nice.
Oh wow! that's my parish on the thumbnail of this video. I love the Western Rite!!! Thanks for doing this.
Cool! Thanks for the comment :D
Wonderful! Very nice overview.
We have to note that the priests of the Western Orthodox Church didn't shave their beards. It is a post-schism characteristic.
Some Eastern rite priests shave too (and many Antiochian Eastern Rite bishops shave). Most WR priests have beards (Fr. Patrick Cardine being an example).
Pray for us 🙏🏼 Ethiopian Orthodox Christians are now being massacred by the gov't 🙏🏼 No int'l media has raised the big issue 😔
The current gov't of Ethiopia is pro LGBTQ+ (Which is not supported by The Holy Bible)
Throughout history shaving has only been applied on priests whom offended the Church by committing a crime, as evidence that they have been defrocked and stripped of their Priesthood. Reference on it can be taken in the Holy Canons, i.e. Canon XXI of Quinisextum Ecumenical Synod (Trullum 692). As for modern priests cutting their facial hair and so on, Saint Paisios the Athonite warned us very clearly by saying «Tradition will be gone and transgression shall come». In conclusion, solid proof for this case is also the depiction of the pre-schism Popes who had their hair untouched.
@@meiteamorf interesting. So the point of having a beard as a priest is so that if you get defrocked they shave it off and everyone can see youre not a legit priest anymore. Thats actually pretty practical. So symbolically all the catholics are in schism cuz they dont have beards then.
@@meiteamorfso what about a beard which is shaved to be shorter but not clean faced? I'm starting at an Antiochan Western Rite Church
Brother, Keep doing what your doing! 🙏🌺☦️🌺🙏
Thank you !
I love the western rite. As said in one of the comments, many eastern rite folks that don’t like the western rite haven’t lived it. There’s a rampant anti-western polemic that’s just gone too far. I agree that the western rite needs some uniformity. That said, the western rite is young. Here is a link to a western rite mass. The priest is mic’d for the video so he can be heard for the video. ruclips.net/video/Ixor3GA8obk/видео.html
@Theoria Do you know if the benedictine monastery on Mount Athos used liturgy of Saint Peter; which I believe is the liturgy of the roman church in a Byzantine frame of liturgy? I heard that Sts. Cyril and Methodius actually used this form of liturgy. It is still used at the Hilandar monastery on Mount Athos.
Where could I research to find about this practice in Hilandar Monastery or “Liturgy of St Peter”?
@@nicodemussmithMaybe go to Mount Athos.
I found this podcast linked on Gab, thankful that I did.
Subbed.
Thank you!
Very cool
As a Roman Catholic who loves the Traditional Latin Mass, I encourage western rite orthodoxy and SSPX. catholic bishops need to be less autocratic and suppressing the TLM. I hope they learn that people thirst for beautiful liturgy.
Glory to God for the Western Rite! I hope someone can answer an innocent question I have. I watched a Western Rite Liturgy on RUclips and was a bit surprised to see that an innovation such as a white circular disk was being used instead of Leavened Bread. Is there a reason for this difference that originated with the Latins? I am asking as a fellow Orthodox Christian who desires to one day participate in a Western Rite Liturgy. I have much love for our Western Saints, such as Saint Patrick.
But, Orthodoxy, throughout history, has been an imitator of Christ, for those who speak and read Greek will understand my question based on the very words of Christ in Koine Greek during the First Supper: "λαβὼν ὁ Ἰησοῦς [ ΆΡΤΟΝ ] καὶ εὐλογήσας ἔκλασεν καὶ δοὺς τοῖς μαθηταῖς εἶπεν· λάβετε φάγετε· τοῦτό ἐστιν τὸ σῶμά μου" ΕΥΑΓΓΕΛΙΟΝ ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΘΘΑΙΟΝ 26/Matt 26:26
In Christ Gregori
We use leavened bread, but it's baked or cooked to be flat. Some parishes make their's more flat than others. Because it's been flat in the west for so many centuries, even before the schism, making it like this helps with the offertory and ablutions, not to mention distribution, in the traditional western fashion.
@@LRung Thank you for taking the time to answer, God bless you!
Im Catholic / Orthodox first time the Lord led me to an Eastern Divine Liturgy in my area ..it had an overwhelming sense of ethnic and eastern 100s of Icons 0 of my fav Saints i was treated like a child like i know nothing as a Catholic they were kind and had lunch after the service and what a great family of God very tight with each other and i felt welcome...if the two halves the the body of christ ever comes together? Benedict was reaching out to Orthodox brothers lots of resistance and misunderstanding . we have the same God and Savior ...
I pray that Orthodoxy is part of the organic revival.
To my understanding teh Holy Mass or Western Rite comes from Saint Gregory the Great. This is the first time I hear that it comes from St Peter. I am a Roman Catholic, but I appreciate knowing things of other Apostolic Churches. It was nice to find this podcast
So, In The Western Rites Orthodox, do they use the filioque?
No, no filioque.
I attended an Orthodox Church of Ukraine -- Kyiv Patriarchate church last Good Friday here in Singapore, and the Western Rite felt very Roman Catholic albeit without the post-Vatican II innovations. It appears that WR Orthodoxy actually does have some inroads in terms of evangelism and outreach to societies more familiar with Protestantism and Roman Catholicism in terms of geographical area.
@andrej_hh not according to the Patriarch of Constantinople
I grew up Episcopalian, teen years left Christianity, twenties actually read the bible, and after a bit of searching around became a high church Episcopalian. Studied history and theology as the Episcopalians were totally falling apart. Realized that only Orthodoxy was the one true church. After several years our priest needed me to do much of the catachetical work as we had so many.. It wasn't too hard to educate protestants, but Romans and Episcopalians thought they knew it all. I had a terrible time getting them to realize that although much of the language might be the same, the meaning was different. Since the liturgy and the hours are totally necessary in learning an Orthodox mindset, I am totally against the WR. It is not our job to make Christianity pretty and comfortable. We are to battle Satan and scrub sin from our lives that we may shine forth the love of Christ.
Good thing the bishops in the Antiochian Archdiocese are not against it.
I've gone through a bit of a transition with my view on the Western Rite. When I was first converting, I was very excited about it, despite there being no Western Rite parishes in my area. After a while I began to have some issues with it. The addition of the Epiclesis bothered me. The idea that it needs to be added when it wasn't present in ancient times undermines the legitimacy and full communion with the East of the ancient Western practice. For some reason, there are some visual and aesthetic aspects that just felt odd to me. The use of the organ isn't perfectly suited to my taste, though I have to say, when it is done well on a high-quality organ it can sound absolutely stunning. The problem is that in the videos I've seen, it is often a tacky electric organ being played pretty badly. Now, I get it. We don't currently have access to full Cathedral organs, and hopefully one day we will. It's just something I've noticed, that's all.
I've recently come to the point where I realise the long-term importance and value of it, and come to the conclusion that some of the issues with the implementation of this excellent idea will be solved in time. I don't think I would ever want to completely stop attending the Eastern Rite Liturgy, but as someone from a 3/4 Catholic, 1/4 Anglican background, it would be wonderful to have the opportunity to worship in the same way that my ancestors did. I include some pre-Schism Western prayers in my prayer rule.
I did want to ask, can the Western prayers associated with the two Western Rites be used by all Orthodox Christians? I live in England which has (or had) a culture steeped in the content of the Book of Common Prayer. Could I as an Orthodox Christian received by the Serbian Jurisdiction make use of the corrected version of that used by those who attend the Mass of St. Tikhon?
Hi!
As with all matters, check with your SF/parish priest. With that said, we have some resources that would be familiar to you as a former Anglican. The English Office Noted is approved for usage in the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America - which would be the daily office/hours of prayer for those who use the Liturgy of St. Tikhon. Lancelot Andrewes Press publishes a corrected Book of Common Prayer that you might find edifying as well. God bless!
@@roratecaeli777 thank you very much! I should clarify that I am not a former Anglican, though my Father was raised Anglican, and the family attended the local Anglican parish at Christmas and Easter, and myself with Scouts on Church Parade days. Growing up, the general culture was also steeped in the language of the Book of Common Prayer. I myself was not baptised until I became Orthodox however, as both my father, and my mother who was raised Roman Catholic, became secular agnostics in their teens.
ruclips.net/video/Ixor3GA8obk/видео.html
Hi genuine question. Who determined in 1054 schism the Catholic church in communion under the Bishop of Rome's authority, was excommunicated and under what authority could they do so? Also, does the Eastern Orthodox officially consider the Oriental Orthodox heretical or validly part of the church?
The EOC considers Oriental Orthodox in schism due to their rejection of the Counci of Chalcedon; it was the first major schism, and there is debate over whether it was a translative and political schism or a deep rooted theological schism; both churches have people that are prayerful for reunion in our lifetimes, and both have vehement opponents to reunion. As for the Schism of 1054, that was plainly caused by an overeager Papal delegate who excitedly delivered a Papal Bull of excommunication in violation of the canons of both east and west, as the Bishop of Rome had died before it was delivered. It was not an immediately known event worldwide, as Crusaders 40 years later asked why the Bishop of Rome wasn't mentioned on the dyptichs in Constantinople, and nobody knew at that time. It's a nuanced argument, both sides again having hard liners and ecumenists prayerful for reunion in our lifetime.
I am confused about that too. It is my understanding that we consider ourselves to be "in comnunion". I think we are one with Ethopia, Antonician, some African Othodox. too.
@@marycayburkindine1003 the Greek, Slavic, & Georgian Churches are not in communion with the Ethiopian or Coptic Churches. There are multiple Syrian churches. The Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch and all the East is the only Syrian Church in communion with Constantinople. There is a Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and all Africa
@@kyle.horton I don’t think it answers my questions. But I appreciate the response
@@marycayburkindine1003 No one in the Eastern Orthodox Church has been able to answer these questions. I guess I’ll ask others. I know there’s multiple orthodox churches not in communion with one another, but don’t know if they are viewed as valid or heretical churches by the Eastern Orthodox. And also the 1054 authority that had the power
Where did you get the Saint John quote on Western Saints? I want to save that.
I certainly was interested in this video. Also, I don't know who you are, other than somewho connected to the Orthodox church...Russian, I think. I will not say much because many people view the video and read these comments. How can I get in touch with either of you? Thank You.
You can find contact info on the about secition of our page: ruclips.net/channel/UCLXxULchJCYPZF4SlG8XS4A
The world must become like Holy 🇷🇺
Why are your ancestors from Scotland, and then Ireland? Some of mine are as well, I just don’t know why there was such a migration from Scotland to Ireland, and then Ireland to America. (Particularly via Liverpool in my case).
The Plantation of Ulster maybe? It might also be the case that prior to the English conquest of Ireland, some Scots moved to Ireland due to the Celtic connection during periods in which Scots were coming under attack by incursions from England. I'm not sure about that though, it's just a shot in the dark.
@@joer9156 it would all be speculation on my part as well. The only thing I have is some immigration records.
Joachim to understand it you might want to read up about the "highland clearances" and the "lowland clearances". Also famine in Ireland might have played a big role.
@@joer9156 nor shot missed. has to do with the highland and the lowland clearances.
nothing to do with "celticness"
@@joachimjustinmorgan4851 the Scots aren't that Celtic as most people think they are. especially not us from the Scottish Borders. Historically belonged to Northumbria. and culturally more related with Englishness/Saxonness than the highlanders are.
It would seem to me, that the Western Rite has remained unchanged as opposed to the Eastern Churches, simply because the Western Rite disappeared for close to five hundred years. Making this comment at the 5:02 mark. Let's see if this video proves otherwise.
The Rite has been alive and well in The ROman Catholic Church. It did not dissapear.
I've become emotionally exhausted trying to find a healthy church community for me. I haven't seen much of Orthodoxy, but I'm more curious than I can explain. I really think it's the next direction I want to explore.
However, I live in Iowa - no Western Rite here as far as I know. So for now I'm stuck with the wimpy Protestant churches where I live.
I converted to Orthodoxy this past summer, and we attend an Eastern Rite parish. It is quite nice. If you can find an eastern rite churcu nearby, I would say to go there.
Where can I read about St. Gorazd?
I had looked at the video of this, but why unleavened bread, after all the writings I have read from Eastren orthodoxy, and what happened in around the great schism, this I don't understand. I was a former Roman Catholic that went to Masses very close to this.
It's not unleavened bread. It's flattened leavened bread.
Could someone inform me do these western rite parishes use Gregorian or Ambrosian chant or something else?
Western Rite! Let's go!
Hey bro my priest told us that rocor gave them permision to do western rite for three years only ?
There have been rumors about ROCOR WR being shut down for years. But all that happened was a reorganization. The three years thing is new though. Is your priest ROCOR WR?
I’m ROCOR-WR and we have the full blessing & support of his eminence Metropolitan Nicholas
No oca
No oca by default @@LRung
What I have learned just recently, and what may be looking like and might be the eventual end of ROCOR WR, is that the WR ROCOR parishes are now all under their diocesan bishop, without any overarching directive. So what the WR looks like in each parish depends on the preferences of the local bishop. For some this will be very Western, for others this will be Byzantized out of existence. @@genemyersmyers6710
Sounds a bit like the Anglican Ordinate that Pope Benedict 16 started so far.
Encyclical on the ‘Western Rite’ by Metropolitan Bishop Anthony (GOA) of Blessed Memory: “His Grace makes clear that while we accept the priests and lay people of these parishes as fully Orthodox we are to avoid any activity which would tend to imply agreement with the formation of such parishes. The reason for this disagreement is twofold: it is both liturgically unsound and pastorally unwise. Liturgically unsound because these rites are not in direct continuity with the worship of the early Church in the West, but are primarily the result of 16th century Reformation or Counter Reformation debates; pastorally unwise because this adds still further to our fragmentation as a Church in the Americas and creates a tiny group of missions and parishes that are liturgically isolated from the rest of the Church."
He's frankly incorrect on the matter
I disagree with him on much of that except the discontinuity argument. There is some truth to that, as I would have preferred that they sourced a pre-Tridentine (or better, a Pre-Schism) missal and rubrics and use those as the basis for the restored Western Rite. And I would argue that all the rites peculiar to specific areas or people groups and their progeny in America should be revived as well: the Use of Sarum for Anglo-Saxons and their descendants; the Mozarabic Rite for the Latins, Latin Americans, and former Spanish colonies; the Gallican Rite for the French and former French colonies; etc.
There are pre-Tridentine (and likely pre-Schism) sources for all of these, and each should be restored to Orthodoxy, as its spiritual inheritance and gift to the world as the One, Holy, _Catholic,_ and Apostolic Church.
And the argument by some that they are no longer living traditions to be handed down in the Church beggars belief. Are we now reversing the words of Christ? Are all the countless thousands of Western saints not alive to God? Is God now the God of the dead and not of the living? Lord, have mercy!
First you state they are fully Orthodox, then you dump on their liturgical practices. SMH....... If they are Orthodox then mind your own business and SHUT UP.
Is there a Western Rite Orthodox that does Novus Ordo Protestant masses ?
No. The novus ordo was made by Rome in the 60’s. There’s no novus ordo in the western rite or anywhere in the Orthodox Church. You’ll only find the liturgy of St. Gregory and the liturgy of St. Tikhon.
Do they bow to the pope?
Obviously not. We’re orthodox.
@@FashSilverback so why did you split with the original Church what did they do? And wouldn't that make you a form of protestant?
@@robert-oq9jq I really don't think you understand. It seems like either you didn't watch the full video or you don't speak english as a first language. The Orthodox Church is reappropriating the liturgical heritage of the West that was lost in the schism.
@robert-oq9jq at the very minimum, the Orthodox are just as much the original church as the Roman Catholics are. They have both been around for 2000 years. However, Rome has continued innovating and changing the faith.
No, Orthodox are not protestant. That's because the absolute authority the Pope claims simply did not exist back in the early church and was never granted by the eastern churches.
❤
Someone told me that Eastern Orthodox/orthodoxy is "one size fits all.". It seems to me that is tantamount to "this is how we do it, take it or leave it ". What about cultures who don't want to kiss icons, priests hands, share a common spoon?
Imo, surely this holds back orthodoxy from spreading farther and growing more.
Some things are adaptable, but some things are just the core parts of the faith. Icon veneration is one example. If you want to be a part of the original Christian church, you're going to have to do some things that you don't like.
Watering down the church to make it comfortable is how Protestants ended up with secular concerts on stage, fog machines, and lgbt "pastoresses."
Lots of people don't kiss the hands of the priest. I've never seen a priest make an issue of this. You can also bow to an icon. You don't have to kiss it. The spoon cannot be changed however.
@@roytofilovski9530 thank you for the information. Very strange to me that sharing a common spoon is foundational. Due to this, I hope the western rite of Eastern Orthodoxy becomes more widespread. The western rite doesn't use a common spoon, not do they drink from a common cup.
@@bddogcatball The Eastern Rite does not drink from a cup. We use a spoon. You are thinking of Catholicism.
@@bddogcatball The Eastern Rite uses a spoon and that cannot be modified by a Bishop or even a Patriarch. But most of the other things are not really mandatory.
Quite latin smelling...
Typical bias! Everything western is looked at with suspicion
Sad.
Nope, don’t want it.
Thanks for the comment.
The Church is not a democracy, but a Kingdom. God bless ☦️
Orthodoxy is not the byzantine rite
@@roratecaeli777 I have never seen a more graceful and accurate reply on social media. Thank you 🙏🏻
@@empirical_blade6926 But the Eastern Rite is objectively better. It’s not heretical, or anything as long as they’re not using unleavened or anything. It’s just not stunted compared to eastern rite, as eastern rite never died off like western rite did.
@@MrWesford All of the major heresies of the first millennium came from the East.
Honestly, Western Rite should be sunsetted.
It would be a travesty if that were to happen.
Whats the name of the monastery in athos ?
Is there any answer?
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalfinon_Monastery