It doesn't act as a sway bar, it simply keeps the body a bit more stiff. Sway bars are used to reduce roll, which is not what strut bars are used for. I have a video on sway bars if you're curious.
@@mohsinrasul8450 It is not designed to. They go over-top of the engine usually so they wouldn't even be in the way in most cases. Even if they were in the way, if there's a force strong enough to bend the frame, break engine mounts and move the engine backwards, I doubt a few extra bolts are going to help very much.
I believe double wishbone type suspensions allow for maintaining the geometry of the wheel across a wider range of travel than MacPherson struts, without compromising the wheel camber.
I could watch your channel all day! I have always enjoyed math and physics, but it makes it so much easier to get into when it is being used to explain something like automotive technology. Keep the great content coming. Also I really like your Integra 👍🏻
Correct, the MacPherson strut is load bearing of the forces from lateral acceleration, where as a double-wishbone handles the vast majority of the forces through the control arms. Of course, the weight of the car, bumps, and weight transfer by cornering still put additional pressure on the coils, thus a force on the strut tower.
Many companies do it quite differently - I'm not sure of what's ideal. But I do want to get a few videos out eventually on weight transfer and roll centers.
4 points just means the forces will be distributed more evenly, this is a good thing. Also, sway bars will have a much larger impact on understeer/oversteer - check out my video "anti-roll bars - explained" for more details.
First question, not really. Don't know much about Bose suspensions. If you're referring to the "active" part of the suspension, it is unrelated to the strut bar.
Strut bars works well in Macpherson struts. One reason why? Because car manufacturers now, have placed strut towers very near the firewall where they can bolt a part of the chassis (usually at the base of the windshield) unto them. Acting as a strut bar on mass production cars, like a Honda CRV or a Nissan Sentra. So yes, buying and installing a $20-$50 aluminum strut bar on your old car is NOT a waste of money. Even if you don't use it for racing, it does make your chassis a tiny bit tighter for maintaining the correct geometry that can go a tiny bit off thru the years. Take it as an investment not as a racing mod.
i put i strut brace on my totally stock beater mazda protege and the difference is amazing. the car feels so flat in corners now. im planning to put one on the rear of my e46 m3, but everything im seeing is saying it wouldnt do anything. a bit confused with the consensus on that, the rear of the car definitely feels like a week point in handling so i cant imagine how it wouldnt make a big difference.
@@AC-wl7ve only problem with the rear is that you might need the trunk space of hauling your junk. Unlike in the front where it would not take up any space. Otherwise yeah, I don’t see why it wouldn’t help, even if just a tiny bit. It’s actually a BMW engineer who said that strut bar might not help in “handling” but it would help maintain chassis shape that may sag thru the years. Specially 90’s car or older.
your videos are great! you present difficult auto concepts in a format that's very easy to understand. i've learned more from you in the past few days about how cars work by watching your videos than ever before.
Anti-roll bars connect independent suspension set-ups (at the control arms), so that when one wheel travels up, it causes the other to have a vertical force as well.
I don't see it making a huge difference, unless there is considerable flex in the strut towers upon lowering the car back onto the ground. Regardless, if installed once lowered it will attempt to negate any force which differs from the car when it is stationary. The bar will experience compression and tension, so pre-loading it one direction (which could be the case if installed while lifted) may not always be best. Interesting question though - feel free to expand anyone...
I'm not an engineer. I am a retired automotive technician of 44 years. I used to race cars. I added a strut bar to a car I'd driven every day and raced after two years. After the first race, the windshield cracked. I had customers who installed strut bars and experienced the same. One of those cars was a VW GTI that, as I stated, cracked three windshields. In my circle of racing acquaintances, it became common knowledge that adding a strut bar to a car w/glued-in w/shield would likely suffer.
Well, it certainly shouldn't be very easy to bend it, but as you mentioned it's really only in tension/compression along the length of it. A vertical force wouldn't be applied, except possibly at the very ends.
Minimizing flex is always a good thing in suspension. If any flex does occur during movement, the suspension geometry then gets thrown off as well thus decreasing overall handling. Good video!!
As long as the components are strong enough for the forces they see, it shouldn't matter too much. A single piece will likely be able to handle stresses better as it wont have as many sheer points.
Awesome. I love mine, haven't really started doing anything to it, though I plan on turning into a track car once I get another car. That's when the fun starts!
Excellent! Except double wishbone suspensions are load bearing at the top also. The full weight of the car is transferred from the body to the lower control arms through this point in both designs.
This has a been very insightful. I’m always trying to understand the concept on how strut-bars function. Many individuals explain the mechanics in short, however you put the science behind it in detail which is what I prefer so thank you
While on track in my E36 M3 (was running very sticky rubber) I cracked a windshield after negotiating a quick right-left-right section of track...in video you could see the crack form and grow as the chassis twisted left and right. Adding a sub-frame brace and a strut bar significantly reduced chassis flex...I haven't broken a windshield since.
im planning to do a rear strut brace on my e46 m3 as i definitely feel some flex in the rear of the car, it seems like a weak point (sub frame is reinforced as well.) but it seems the general consensus is that a rear strut bar would do practiacally nothing so im a bit confused on this. i imagine it would make a huge difference.
Well, you want it to be as small and light as possible, while still managing to link the two bars without compromise. What the perfect balance is, I do not know. Would have to use some strain gauges.
I did install these - the video will be up Saturday. I haven't installed the catback because I want to do engine upgrades differently - I want to prove they've made a difference, which requires dyno testing. I want to be able to tear apart my car and leave it in a garage, without needing it - which requires another car. This should all be solved within a year, as I'm saving for a new car currently. My channel grew a bit faster than I expected, so I'm just trying to keep up!
This is why I like this channel. I think I can learn more about something as simple as a strut bar when I thought I already knew all there was to know on that subject. Thank you for explaining the differences between how it reacts with a MacPherson strut and double wishbone suspension.
I enjoyed this video! Its also impotent to consider that some thinner/ cheaper strut braces are not very effective if they flex easier then the chassis its self (eg if you can bend it by leaning on it) Very nice video! :D
I have strut bars everywhere on my Type R; boot brace, rear upper strut bar, rear lower strut bar, front upper strut bar and a H brace under the engine. The car is so stiff, turning onto a road or car park with a fairly steep incline and the car likes 3 wheels instead of 4 lol
+elliot438bcfc Interesting. Did you feel that change in the car's behaviour with these mods alone or in conjunction with stiffer springs? Do you have stock springs or stiffer aftermarket ones?
Siddharth Rajkumar Well all of the braces other than the H brace under the engine are stock. It is on Ohlins coilovers so not overly stiff or hard. The car is definitely a cornering champ and I believe the front and rear strut braces aswell as the H brace definitely help. Obviously a good brand of coilovers such as my Ohlins will make a huge difference even over the already great DC2 suspension
elliot438bcfc I see. As far as strut bars/braces go, the baseline you seem to have for your car's handing is NOT without those parts in place. I was hoping to know if all the strut bars were installed by you and that's what improved the handling. The improvement you have achieved seems to be mostly due to the coilovers. Of course, I am only deducing that from your comment since you are the one who drives your car. However, if all the strut bars (save for the H brace) came as stock, the car actually needs them to handle well and would not be as poised without them. I wonder how much of an improvement a strut bar provides in real world circumstances in a car that does not come stock with it. All theoretical questions I guess...
Siddharth Rajkumar I believe strut bars will have a small effect on handling. I don't think Honda would put them there for no reason as they made the car to be as light as possible. During hard cornering (providing grip is adequate) there will be flex and strut bars will definitely lessen this flex. Similar to how brake stoppers work.
+elliot438bcfc That makes sense. If they made the shell of the car as light as possible, that means some load bearing parts (like strut mounts) might flex under cornering stress. To make up for that they must have installed strut bars instead of adding large areas of thicker sheet metal. Brake stoppers? Do you mean bars or link rods that connect the chassis/body to brake calipers to prevent them turning about the rotors?
On any car with shock towers and unit body construction, some flexing will occur. An upper strutbar is mostly for show (and adds weight) and only partially effective unless a lower bar is used to tie it all together; essentially you are boxing the suspension as a true frame would do. Upper and lower A-arms are the best means for keeping tire contact and have better travel (and respond better to lowering springs).
Cheers to your ideas and opinion. Cars are carefully engineered for purpose, appeal, and a certain lifespan; but it's a business, so compromises are made. Simply, if something minor like a an upper strut bar really added so much precision, and hence safety, to the suspension then it would be found on more cars wouldn't it?
Great video describing the suspension load forces! A strut bar will definitely help stiffen a McPherson strut suspension vehicle, but at the same time it will increase ride harshness, noise and vibration. I put one on my 1984 VW Jetta GLi coupe, and on harsh road conditions, it sounded like someone was hitting my dash with a sledgehammer. Unless you track your vehicle or have very smooth roads where you live I wouldn't recommend them in daily use. That said, I did mount a lower control arm brace and a rear strut bar - those helped the vehicle corner better without any increase in NVH.
Water is cannot be compressed, so if you have water in a cylinder and it attempts to compress, it will fail to do so. This likely results in a broken connecting rod, and could cause other damage as well.
Car stays more stable if one side of the car hits a bump, because the force is transferred more evenly between the L and R strut towers. He explains it in the video
A thought processes through my mind, since you're installing an aftermarket strut bar.. What about the OEM acura strut bar, installing one more. What I'm questioning is.., would there be even more support? Not just one but two? Pros/cons? Difference?
Ok. Ok. Thank you very much for this post! Until today, I had no idea what a strut bar was or what it did. We have a PT Cruiser and the previous owner installed a strut bar (Alutec UltraStrut) that is welded right beside the strut bolts, as you indicated. My problem is it goes directly over the power steering reservoir which means I can't open that reservoir to check it. It almost blocks the coolant reservoir ▬ but at least I can open that one.
I had a Honda Civic Ep3 Type R. I ended up fitting a supercharger, coilovers, exhaust system etc. However one of the first modifications I made was to fit a front upper strut brace. It made a noticeable difference. Why? Because the European Ep3 type r had lifeless steering and no limited slip diff. So the strut made a huge difference.
Street Car - Don't touch the suspension, you just make it worse. Race Car: Double Wishbone Suspension - Don't add any strut bars, MacPherson - Maybe. Few Important concepts are missing in the video: When you tighten up the front by adding a tower brace, you make the car tight. More Understeer. When you tighten up the rear, you make the car lose. Oversteer . So you are screwing with the balance. Adding of a strut bar very often makes the car handle worse, and it always makes for a stiffer ride. When you add so much bracing to a car, all the sudden the car is so tight it mishandles on uneven roads (Most of US). This works on a track to a point, but even then it can get too tight. None of my race cars ever had strut bars in them. Street car - leave it the way it is. People spent hours at the factory trying to make a balanced ride for you, and you want to throw their work out the window in few minutes. There are situations where a use of a brace could make sense. For example: Toyota Supra has a huge understeer by default. Adding a brace to the rear will give you more neutral balance.
Russain Guy Gang the presenter is explaining the use of a strut bar. struts are fastened or installed in car’s steel plate rather than bolted in car’s chassis. struts installed in car’s steel plate body gives a bending effect on the plate and that’s where the bracket comes to its purpose. My question is, how can a strut bracket eliminate that bending effect on the plate when he the presenter uses a folding end brackets? is it the purpose is to make the struts rigid in order to hold the struts swaying movement? please help me understand the purpose. Ty
Loony Linn Exactly, most off -the-shelf strut bars pivot at the ends because the bolts holding the bar are horizontal i.e. the same rotational placement as the exact motion it's meant to stop. You want a strut bar where the bar bolts in vertically through the brackets. Alternatively, I suppose if that's all someone had available for their car, then the brackets could just be welded to the bar.
Street car: leave it the way it is, people spent hours at the factory trying to make an UNDERSTEER prone ride for you... Fixed it for you... almost ALL vehicles (unless you are buying a halo model sports car that is factory tuned for performance) will have a suspension tune that is biased towards understeer. Which is not a BAD thing, as most point A to point B drivers will never take a car to its handling limits unless they are trying to avoid a collision... understeer is "SAFE" Now, as a driving enthusiast, you know - a car tuned for neutral handling or a small amount of oversteer is the faster car in the corners. Being able to rotate the car in a corner and correct with a dab of opposite lock is more desireable than plowing out of a corner, or worse, plowing out, lifting off and spinning the car... if spirited or track driving is your thing. Just saying, the engineers that designed the suspension in most cars didn't set it up to handle at its absolute potential. they set it up so the soccer mom that will flip the hell out if the car unexpectedly rotates in a corner and crash...doesn't Also not saying a strut bar is the answer to any particular question. I tend to agree that they are largely un needed... unless it is. I would argue the point that alot of modern cars tend to handle better when pushed to the limit when you install a stiffer than factory rear sway bar...
No, understeer is more complicated than simply being "loose" or "tight," or it being bad vs good, it's way oversimplifying the dynamics. The short of the answer is the function of the body is to be rigid platform for the suspension to generate consistent grip under load. If you're talking street car, there's no way it "mishandles" on even roads due to it being too tight. Street cars by nature are underdamped for comfort. Plus, strut bars are about reducing unregulated, sloppy motion. Actually, now that I think about it I think you're confusing strut bar with sway bar. Even assuming it's creating understeer, there are a million ways to offset that, like more camber in the front, stiffer rear sways, heck even changing front/rear tire pressure.
Coming from someone that has been through 4 suspension setups in his Focus ST since he blew his original monroe struts 2 years ago I can say you may be right. Unless you plan on having a race team to adjust your ride height, damping, preload, and camber in my case on both front and rear plus adjustable sway bar link all atound and adjustable control arms in rear...my car catches a dip and literally launches itself up and back down so hard yet its semi controlled so I guess you can say it works but it iant ideal. Roads suck and unless you plan on driving your car to the track and adjudting it there I would leave things alone except for maybe a mild lowering spring at most. Even that is playing with fire. I am up to a 1,000 set of coilovers, my second set, and have tried multiple adjustments and even brought it to every shop in town. I am gathering parts to put it back to stock and will be selling all the crap I wasted money on for half the price on ebay. The car is so stiff its jumpy and what sucks is there is enough adjustment in it where you could probably raise it up and adjuat the coilovers to a softer setting and get away with that but between me and the people at the shops around here it seems to be more of a hassle than they are willing to deal with. I cant even get my mecjhanic to replace parts on my car until they are noticeably bad. He wont replace struts that has 60k miles on them that he thinks are fine. The rears were leaking at 30k miles and replaced by factory though. What a joke.
I've found a new purpose to my mechanical engineering studies: understand properly your videos haha! Having just started, I remember oh so well doing moments and forces last semester... Great video by the way, as always !!
i love these videos. i wanna b a mechanic, not only fixing cars as stock conditions, but i want high performance techniques. i want it to be my reference. so i love these techniques, technologies that improve car's performance IN A SIMPLE way, thats amazing!
Really disappointed you didn't use a welded strut brace triangulated to the firewall. This is a good explanation of the concept for the layman but you could have gone further by explaining how compliance in those fasteners/threads, how those steel brackets are hilariously cantilevered away from the load path make a two point bar a very very marginal improvement, if any, in the handling dept.
marc mendes Even a 3 point strut bar is an ultra fine tuning component, like adding a massive gt wing for example. For handling start with tires, coilovers, weight, and then nitty gritty stuff like chassis modifications.
marc mendes my bro and i were talking about the 3 point strut bar this morning. since i won't take my delsol to the track and its just street we went with a basic strut bar. i wouldn't see why any car on the street would need three point strut
A street car doesn't NEED a lot of things, but people do them anyways. Like a blown 800hp 3mpg camaro or a civic with a giant turbo that doesnt spool until 5k. You can make whatever choices you want and ultimately it comes down to what car you have and what you want to do with it. but me, id save the money for just about anything else over a 3 piece, 2 point strut bar. It was more a comment hoping they would have explained some real engineering concepts behind chassis stiffness and take things a step further than the standard explanation you can get on any forum and why people continue to have people buying up those useless 2 piece bars. I think you'll find your strut bar is mostly just in the way for a street car (it was in mine)
Since we're talking street cars, triangulated braces aren't all that beneficial to them. The firewall isn't a strong point for mounting something like that. A basic design, solid sway bar would work better unless the firewall was reinforced. I've yet to read any positive feedback from tri-braces and just looking at the overall design, you can see that as a corner is moving up/down it will be pulling that bar, and therefore firewall itself, to it.
You've missed something, the most important function of a strut bar is to increase rigidity of the chassis. When you corner or hit a bump, the chassis will compress and bend slightly between the struts, the strut bar is there to minimise the compression, hence improve rigidity.
One thing I have wondered is, why strut bars have oval holes for the bolts? Is this to allow flex or adjust for misalignment? It just seems odd that if the bar is supposed to increase rigidity, but at the same time is allowing some form of flex or movement from the strut towers.
Dear Engineer, the force analysis of mechanisms can not be performed like your ıntiutive approach. You should first learn degree of freedom of joints. A revolute joint as in chassis side of the lower control arms has one freedom in rotation along its axis and there can not be a moment reaction which you wrote as "friction moment" thus your all analysis is wrong.
What youre talking about? the pivot point of the lower control arm is not coincident with the friction vector... therefore there MUST be a moment created lol
Why are some strut bars mounted to the top of the strut tower and some are mounted with the top of the shocks? Does this effect performance? Which is better?
+Engineering Explained Does adding a strut bar to a car reduce or increase stress on the original chassis? Basically, would it prolong a chassis's structural integrity or the opposite?
Alex Yang depends on how you drive. increasing the rigidity of the vehicle puts more stress to the tires. I noticed this after I put a front sway bar on my 96 corolla. I got wayyyyy less body roll but noticed my tires wear faster. then again the increased stability gave me more confidence to corner faster soooo it's debatable.
Would a strut bar be beneficial or counterproductive for a damaged strut tower? I have a strut tower with a hole in it (not due to rust) and would like to do something to strengthen it and keep the hole from getting any bigger.
can someone PLEASE do some double blind testing with and without a strut bar? include lap times as well. everyone says "the car FEELS better" etc. but there's ZERO proof on the entire internet that these actually do anything.
lampim. Agreed. The car might feel a bit "tighter" as the slight ( as in thousands of an inch) flexing of the strut towers would be reduced, but actual lap times would be the same. The crap ones shown in this video are weak at the brackets, as the brackets extend upwards and can flex themselves. The bars are bent, which in itself is a weak design. And the brace is not triangulated to the firewall, therefore the strut towers could technically flex front to rear. Mostly rubish! If your strut towers are flexing that much, the car is scary weak.
Its not marketing some of the times. The fact is... It will depend on the quality of the bar but most important the state of the car. A 10 year old car might notice a huge difference, while a 1 year car wouldnt notice difference at all. Strut braces are also used on racing.
Sorry to say this, but my struts that had a little over 80k miles, felt newer after putting on my strut tower brace bar. But now, I have been riding on Koni yellow sport shocks and struts with that same strut bar. It is even more wicked of a ride. Oh... and I put them in my vehicle myself too! Even modded my car to accept the Koni yellow sport struts to go onto, since Koni doesn’t make their yellow sports for it.
Does strut bars effect comfort of the car as the force gets transferred from one side to another while hitring bumps? Is it OK & good to use strut bar in a bumpy road or is it meant for a flat carpeted road?
hahaha get some performance stickers and that will give you a whopping five horse power to the wheels my main point with my car is a solid transmission and handling and I'm also installing a roll cage and working seat belts. when I was in the fire dept I seen some nasty shit I'm talking brains in the console that was enough for me to change my plan I haven't done nothing to my cars paint or carpet I went straight for the motor but this guy could come with a straight answer I like you're style
+Martin Corleone There is a link on the right of the screen to watch other videos...it's real easy just click onn one of them and you can watch MCM or some other BS channel instead of learning something, lol. Just my thoughts...
great video, just wonder if there is any disadvantage of installing a strut bar? For normal people driving a normal car, do we need strut bar? many thanks
I wouldn't call it the "strongest shape in physics." If anything, that would be awarded to circles as they distribute stress the most evenly - hence the use of cylinders in many structural systems, and why you can stand on an empty soda can without it crushing. That said, triangles are a strong shape in 2d, as they don't allow for movement as easily (degress of freedom) like a square.
![Strut Braces & Bars - Do You Need Them? [Car Handling Tips] Pros & Cons: Strut Bars vs no Strut Bar](/img/1.gif)
His delivery and confidence have improved dramatically over the past many years. Watching this in 2020.
Hey same bro
That’s crazzzy. Same here
Big ass dick
True that
@@NFLYoungBoy223 ayo??
It doesn't act as a sway bar, it simply keeps the body a bit more stiff. Sway bars are used to reduce roll, which is not what strut bars are used for. I have a video on sway bars if you're curious.
Would the strut bar help in a head on collision?
I. E. Stop the engine moving towards the cabin?
@@mohsinrasul8450 It is not designed to.
They go over-top of the engine usually so they wouldn't even be in the way in most cases.
Even if they were in the way, if there's a force strong enough to bend the frame, break engine mounts and move the engine backwards, I doubt a few extra bolts are going to help very much.
Yes.
No.
Thanks! That was the simplest to understand engineering explanation I’ve heard. AWESOME!!!! Nice FBD!
I believe double wishbone type suspensions allow for maintaining the geometry of the wheel across a wider range of travel than MacPherson struts, without compromising the wheel camber.
Check out the "FAQs" link on my "about" page on my channel.
So far Redline360 and Yonaka have been very kind to help out with videos. I do believe this trend will continue as long as all goes well.
Nope, check out my FAQs (link on my "About" page) for more info.
if i paint the bar red will my car go faster?
+25KW
If u paint it red it won't b street legal
Definitely
clownavenger yeah it's not street legal to paint it red. But each sticker you slap on it adds roughly 5 HP
Antonio Conejo i know about the power of stickers but it may get too hot down there when i rev my rotary to 9500.
This is like Khan Academy for cars.
Mordant Vistas omfg I couldn’t have explained it better myself
he kinda looks 10 and 35 at the same time
Whatever his looks may be, I'll tell you this. He's intelligent.
so 25 ?
10 and 35.... so 45?
Exactly, he body of a 10yr old with a degree of a 40 yr old scientist.
Hblog - 10 and 35.... so 1035?
I could watch your channel all day! I have always enjoyed math and physics, but it makes it so much easier to get into when it is being used to explain something like automotive technology. Keep the great content coming. Also I really like your Integra 👍🏻
Thanks, glad you enjoy the channel! Donated the Integra but I have an S2000 now! :)
+Engineering Explained could you please explain how cadalayic converters work
Damn donated lol you ballin?
Correct, the MacPherson strut is load bearing of the forces from lateral acceleration, where as a double-wishbone handles the vast majority of the forces through the control arms. Of course, the weight of the car, bumps, and weight transfer by cornering still put additional pressure on the coils, thus a force on the strut tower.
Many companies do it quite differently - I'm not sure of what's ideal. But I do want to get a few videos out eventually on weight transfer and roll centers.
You can get stiffer spring without changing the ride height. But if you want to go around a corner quickly I'd look at your tires first.
the way this guy explains things I wouldn't be surprised if he did a video on how spaceships go into hyperdrive.
Decepticon Leader pretty simple my man
Yeah, he explains clearly and very detailed rather than others who said it's just to tighten the suspension and chassis
I almost choked on a peanut butter and honey sandwich laughing at this comment
lol
4 points just means the forces will be distributed more evenly, this is a good thing. Also, sway bars will have a much larger impact on understeer/oversteer - check out my video "anti-roll bars - explained" for more details.
First question, not really. Don't know much about Bose suspensions. If you're referring to the "active" part of the suspension, it is unrelated to the strut bar.
Strut bars works well in Macpherson struts. One reason why?
Because car manufacturers now, have placed strut towers very near the firewall where they can bolt a part of the chassis (usually at the base of the windshield) unto them. Acting as a strut bar on mass production cars, like a Honda CRV or a Nissan Sentra.
So yes, buying and installing a $20-$50 aluminum strut bar on your old car is NOT a waste of money. Even if you don't use it for racing, it does make your chassis a tiny bit tighter for maintaining the correct geometry that can go a tiny bit off thru the years. Take it as an investment not as a racing mod.
thanks dude, it was that kind of information that I was looking for
Make a sense .thanks bro
Very well said
i put i strut brace on my totally stock beater mazda protege and the difference is amazing. the car feels so flat in corners now. im planning to put one on the rear of my e46 m3, but everything im seeing is saying it wouldnt do anything. a bit confused with the consensus on that, the rear of the car definitely feels like a week point in handling so i cant imagine how it wouldnt make a big difference.
@@AC-wl7ve only problem with the rear is that you might need the trunk space of hauling your junk. Unlike in the front where it would not take up any space. Otherwise yeah, I don’t see why it wouldn’t help, even if just a tiny bit.
It’s actually a BMW engineer who said that strut bar might not help in “handling” but it would help maintain chassis shape that may sag thru the years. Specially 90’s car or older.
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Snell rated.
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your videos are great! you present difficult auto concepts in a format that's very easy to understand. i've learned more from you in the past few days about how cars work by watching your videos than ever before.
Anti-roll bars connect independent suspension set-ups (at the control arms), so that when one wheel travels up, it causes the other to have a vertical force as well.
They all leave feeling a bit stiffer.
An innocent response to a RUclips comment 6 years ago; a "that's what she said" joke today.
@@Romulus1001 AHAHA
I don't see it making a huge difference, unless there is considerable flex in the strut towers upon lowering the car back onto the ground. Regardless, if installed once lowered it will attempt to negate any force which differs from the car when it is stationary. The bar will experience compression and tension, so pre-loading it one direction (which could be the case if installed while lifted) may not always be best. Interesting question though - feel free to expand anyone...
I'm not an engineer. I am a retired automotive technician of 44 years.
I used to race cars. I added a strut bar to a car I'd driven every day and raced after two years. After the first race, the windshield cracked.
I had customers who installed strut bars and experienced the same.
One of those cars was a VW GTI that, as I stated, cracked three windshields.
In my circle of racing acquaintances, it became common knowledge that adding a strut bar to a car w/glued-in w/shield would likely suffer.
Well, it certainly shouldn't be very easy to bend it, but as you mentioned it's really only in tension/compression along the length of it. A vertical force wouldn't be applied, except possibly at the very ends.
Best springs i've ever seen drawn by hands :D
You may be thinking of a sway bar, strut bars won't have much (if any) influence on understeer/oversteer, where as sway bars certainly will.
Minimizing flex is always a good thing in suspension. If any flex does occur during movement, the suspension geometry then gets thrown off as well thus decreasing overall handling. Good video!!
As long as the components are strong enough for the forces they see, it shouldn't matter too much. A single piece will likely be able to handle stresses better as it wont have as many sheer points.
Awesome. I love mine, haven't really started doing anything to it, though I plan on turning into a track car once I get another car. That's when the fun starts!
You're welcome! Thanks for watching.
Excellent! Except double wishbone suspensions are load bearing at the top also. The full weight of the car is transferred from the body to the lower control arms through this point in both designs.
Correct, to increase chassis rigidity.
At :22 I was really expecting him to say, when he said “your car will be predictable once you HIT.... VTEC” 😂😂😂
Very good vid and explanation! 👍🏼👍🏼
This has a been very insightful. I’m always trying to understand the concept on how strut-bars function. Many individuals explain the mechanics in short, however you put the science behind it in detail which is what I prefer so thank you
While on track in my E36 M3 (was running very sticky rubber) I cracked a windshield after negotiating a quick right-left-right section of track...in video you could see the crack form and grow as the chassis twisted left and right. Adding a sub-frame brace and a strut bar significantly reduced chassis flex...I haven't broken a windshield since.
im planning to do a rear strut brace on my e46 m3 as i definitely feel some flex in the rear of the car, it seems like a weak point (sub frame is reinforced as well.) but it seems the general consensus is that a rear strut bar would do practiacally nothing so im a bit confused on this. i imagine it would make a huge difference.
Well, you want it to be as small and light as possible, while still managing to link the two bars without compromise. What the perfect balance is, I do not know. Would have to use some strain gauges.
Watch at 240p he looks like he's wearing a helmet.
Maybe he does :))
Hahahhahahahahshhdhdjdkkf
Port Land the helmet ⛑ of knowledge
Lol
That's brilliant
I did install these - the video will be up Saturday. I haven't installed the catback because I want to do engine upgrades differently - I want to prove they've made a difference, which requires dyno testing. I want to be able to tear apart my car and leave it in a garage, without needing it - which requires another car. This should all be solved within a year, as I'm saving for a new car currently. My channel grew a bit faster than I expected, so I'm just trying to keep up!
They increase cornering horsepower..
i thought they kept the headlight fluid level
This is why I like this channel. I think I can learn more about something as simple as a strut bar when I thought I already knew all there was to know on that subject. Thank you for explaining the differences between how it reacts with a MacPherson strut and double wishbone suspension.
I enjoyed this video! Its also impotent to consider that some thinner/ cheaper strut braces are not very effective if they flex easier then the chassis its self (eg if you can bend it by leaning on it)
Very nice video! :D
Lol! 2023 wants your helmet! That said I loved this video and your 2023 videos. Keep it up!
I have strut bars everywhere on my Type R; boot brace, rear upper strut bar, rear lower strut bar, front upper strut bar and a H brace under the engine. The car is so stiff, turning onto a road or car park with a fairly steep incline and the car likes 3 wheels instead of 4 lol
+elliot438bcfc Interesting. Did you feel that change in the car's behaviour with these mods alone or in conjunction with stiffer springs? Do you have stock springs or stiffer aftermarket ones?
Siddharth Rajkumar
Well all of the braces other than the H brace under the engine are stock. It is on Ohlins coilovers so not overly stiff or hard. The car is definitely a cornering champ and I believe the front and rear strut braces aswell as the H brace definitely help. Obviously a good brand of coilovers such as my Ohlins will make a huge difference even over the already great DC2 suspension
elliot438bcfc I see. As far as strut bars/braces go, the baseline you seem to have for your car's handing is NOT without those parts in place. I was hoping to know if all the strut bars were installed by you and that's what improved the handling. The improvement you have achieved seems to be mostly due to the coilovers. Of course, I am only deducing that from your comment since you are the one who drives your car. However, if all the strut bars (save for the H brace) came as stock, the car actually needs them to handle well and would not be as poised without them. I wonder how much of an improvement a strut bar provides in real world circumstances in a car that does not come stock with it. All theoretical questions I guess...
Siddharth Rajkumar
I believe strut bars will have a small effect on handling. I don't think Honda would put them there for no reason as they made the car to be as light as possible. During hard cornering (providing grip is adequate) there will be flex and strut bars will definitely lessen this flex. Similar to how brake stoppers work.
+elliot438bcfc That makes sense. If they made the shell of the car as light as possible, that means some load bearing parts (like strut mounts) might flex under cornering stress. To make up for that they must have installed strut bars instead of adding large areas of thicker sheet metal. Brake stoppers? Do you mean bars or link rods that connect the chassis/body to brake calipers to prevent them turning about the rotors?
It is possible, depending on how flexible the chassis/body is.
On any car with shock towers and unit body construction, some flexing will occur. An upper strutbar is mostly for show (and adds weight) and only partially effective unless a lower bar is used to tie it all together; essentially you are boxing the suspension as a true frame would do. Upper and lower A-arms are the best means for keeping tire contact and have better travel (and respond better to lowering springs).
Cheers to your ideas and opinion. Cars are carefully engineered for purpose, appeal, and a certain lifespan; but it's a business, so compromises are made. Simply, if something minor like a an upper strut bar really added so much precision, and hence safety, to the suspension then it would be found on more cars wouldn't it?
tyler t Totally agree. Ive changed from Alfa sport suspension to a Bilstein B12 kit and the need to brace the strut pilars is clear.
Won't affect comfort.
Great video describing the suspension load forces! A strut bar will definitely help stiffen a McPherson strut suspension vehicle, but at the same time it will increase ride harshness, noise and vibration.
I put one on my 1984 VW Jetta GLi coupe, and on harsh road conditions, it sounded like someone was hitting my dash with a sledgehammer. Unless you track your vehicle or have very smooth roads where you live I wouldn't recommend them in daily use. That said, I did mount a lower control arm brace and a rear strut bar - those helped the vehicle corner better without any increase in NVH.
Water is cannot be compressed, so if you have water in a cylinder and it attempts to compress, it will fail to do so. This likely results in a broken connecting rod, and could cause other damage as well.
How do strut bars affect vehicles over impacts/bumps while racing?
Car stays more stable if one side of the car hits a bump, because the force is transferred more evenly between the L and R strut towers. He explains it in the video
Not from rotation of the strut, but from forces passing to the strut (whether it be tension or compression).
Love from Iraq learning a Lott , love the integra
Thank you, glad you enjoy the videos!
How much HP will it give my car?
***** Zero horsepowers.
Engineering Explained Lol
***** You could always paint your brake calipers red you know, +25KW.
***** It just increase your car stability
NorwayVFX i bet your a mighty car mod viewer :)
You're very welcome, thanks for the kind words.
A thought processes through my mind, since you're installing an aftermarket strut bar.. What about the OEM acura strut bar, installing one more.
What I'm questioning is.., would there be even more support? Not just one but two?
Pros/cons?
Difference?
I only check He's videos when I want deep details on anything to do with the car... He's the best
Ok. Ok. Thank you very much for this post! Until today, I had no idea what a strut bar was or what it did. We have a PT Cruiser and the previous owner installed a strut bar (Alutec UltraStrut) that is welded right beside the strut bolts, as you indicated. My problem is it goes directly over the power steering reservoir which means I can't open that reservoir to check it. It almost blocks the coolant reservoir ▬ but at least I can open that one.
I had a Honda Civic Ep3 Type R. I ended up fitting a supercharger, coilovers, exhaust system etc. However one of the first modifications I made was to fit a front upper strut brace. It made a noticeable difference. Why? Because the European Ep3 type r had lifeless steering and no limited slip diff. So the strut made a huge difference.
It shouldn't affect the steering dynamics. Stiff is a good thing in this case.
Street Car - Don't touch the suspension, you just make it worse.
Race Car: Double Wishbone Suspension - Don't add any strut bars, MacPherson - Maybe.
Few Important concepts are missing in the video:
When you tighten up the front by adding a tower brace, you make the car tight. More Understeer. When you tighten up the rear, you make the car lose. Oversteer .
So you are screwing with the balance.
Adding of a strut bar very often makes the car handle worse, and it always makes for a stiffer ride.
When you add so much bracing to a car, all the sudden the car is so tight it mishandles on uneven roads (Most of US). This works on a track to a point, but even then it can get too tight.
None of my race cars ever had strut bars in them.
Street car - leave it the way it is. People spent hours at the factory trying to make a balanced ride for you, and you want to throw their work out the window in few minutes.
There are situations where a use of a brace could make sense. For example: Toyota Supra has a huge understeer by default. Adding a brace to the rear will give you more neutral balance.
Russain Guy Gang the presenter is explaining the use of a strut bar. struts are fastened or installed in car’s steel plate rather than bolted in car’s chassis. struts installed in car’s steel plate body gives a bending effect on the plate and that’s where the bracket comes to its purpose. My question is, how can a strut bracket eliminate that bending effect on the plate when he the presenter uses a folding end brackets? is it the purpose is to make the struts rigid in order to hold the struts swaying movement? please help me understand the purpose. Ty
Loony Linn Exactly, most off -the-shelf strut bars pivot at the ends because the bolts holding the bar are horizontal i.e. the same rotational placement as the exact motion it's meant to stop. You want a strut bar where the bar bolts in vertically through the brackets.
Alternatively, I suppose if that's all someone had available for their car, then the brackets could just be welded to the bar.
Street car: leave it the way it is, people spent hours at the factory trying to make an UNDERSTEER prone ride for you...
Fixed it for you... almost ALL vehicles (unless you are buying a halo model sports car that is factory tuned for performance) will have a suspension tune that is biased towards understeer. Which is not a BAD thing, as most point A to point B drivers will never take a car to its handling limits unless they are trying to avoid a collision... understeer is "SAFE"
Now, as a driving enthusiast, you know - a car tuned for neutral handling or a small amount of oversteer is the faster car in the corners. Being able to rotate the car in a corner and correct with a dab of opposite lock is more desireable than plowing out of a corner, or worse, plowing out, lifting off and spinning the car... if spirited or track driving is your thing.
Just saying, the engineers that designed the suspension in most cars didn't set it up to handle at its absolute potential. they set it up so the soccer mom that will flip the hell out if the car unexpectedly rotates in a corner and crash...doesn't
Also not saying a strut bar is the answer to any particular question. I tend to agree that they are largely un needed... unless it is.
I would argue the point that alot of modern cars tend to handle better when pushed to the limit when you install a stiffer than factory rear sway bar...
No, understeer is more complicated than simply being "loose" or "tight," or it being bad vs good, it's way oversimplifying the dynamics.
The short of the answer is the function of the body is to be rigid platform for the suspension to generate consistent grip under load. If you're talking street car, there's no way it "mishandles" on even roads due to it being too tight. Street cars by nature are underdamped for comfort. Plus, strut bars are about reducing unregulated, sloppy motion. Actually, now that I think about it I think you're confusing strut bar with sway bar.
Even assuming it's creating understeer, there are a million ways to offset that, like more camber in the front, stiffer rear sways, heck even changing front/rear tire pressure.
Coming from someone that has been through 4 suspension setups in his Focus ST since he blew his original monroe struts 2 years ago I can say you may be right. Unless you plan on having a race team to adjust your ride height, damping, preload, and camber in my case on both front and rear plus adjustable sway bar link all atound and adjustable control arms in rear...my car catches a dip and literally launches itself up and back down so hard yet its semi controlled so I guess you can say it works but it iant ideal. Roads suck and unless you plan on driving your car to the track and adjudting it there I would leave things alone except for maybe a mild lowering spring at most. Even that is playing with fire. I am up to a 1,000 set of coilovers, my second set, and have tried multiple adjustments and even brought it to every shop in town. I am gathering parts to put it back to stock and will be selling all the crap I wasted money on for half the price on ebay. The car is so stiff its jumpy and what sucks is there is enough adjustment in it where you could probably raise it up and adjuat the coilovers to a softer setting and get away with that but between me and the people at the shops around here it seems to be more of a hassle than they are willing to deal with. I cant even get my mecjhanic to replace parts on my car until they are noticeably bad. He wont replace struts that has 60k miles on them that he thinks are fine. The rears were leaking at 30k miles and replaced by factory though. What a joke.
I've found a new purpose to my mechanical engineering studies: understand properly your videos haha! Having just started, I remember oh so well doing moments and forces last semester... Great video by the way, as always !!
i have a 95 civic eg hatchback, should i get bars for both front and back?
you don't really need them
Bill Wilkins You only need strut bars on cars that can go fast and corner. in other words not civics.
A rear bar might be a decent idea if you want a cheap mod. Those cars don't even have rear sway bars... It might actually help.
Dude you're a genius for explaining all these components so well
“Strut bars are used to increase the virginity of the car”
Uhh.... too late.
It must feel great having big companies like that give you components, lucky guy!
are u a beatle fan?
🤣
i love these videos. i wanna b a mechanic, not only fixing cars as stock conditions, but i want high performance techniques. i want it to be my reference. so i love these techniques, technologies that improve car's performance IN A SIMPLE way, thats amazing!
You look so much like a young Joachim Lowë. Aka the coach for the Germany National Team 😂😂😭
Because they serve different purposes.
That man always wears his helmet no matter where he is 😂😂😂
I believe air springs are much costlier. But you can alter your ride height in a matter of seconds rather than taking an hour or so.
Really disappointed you didn't use a welded strut brace triangulated to the firewall. This is a good explanation of the concept for the layman but you could have gone further by explaining how compliance in those fasteners/threads, how those steel brackets are hilariously cantilevered away from the load path make a two point bar a very very marginal improvement, if any, in the handling dept.
marc mendes Even a 3 point strut bar is an ultra fine tuning component, like adding a massive gt wing for example. For handling start with tires, coilovers, weight, and then nitty gritty stuff like chassis modifications.
marc mendes my bro and i were talking about the 3 point strut bar this morning. since i won't take my delsol to the track and its just street we went with a basic strut bar. i wouldn't see why any car on the street would need three point strut
A street car doesn't NEED a lot of things, but people do them anyways. Like a blown 800hp 3mpg camaro or a civic with a giant turbo that doesnt spool until 5k. You can make whatever choices you want and ultimately it comes down to what car you have and what you want to do with it. but me, id save the money for just about anything else over a 3 piece, 2 point strut bar.
It was more a comment hoping they would have explained some real engineering concepts behind chassis stiffness and take things a step further than the standard explanation you can get on any forum and why people continue to have people buying up those useless 2 piece bars. I think you'll find your strut bar is mostly just in the way for a street car (it was in mine)
Since we're talking street cars, triangulated braces aren't all that beneficial to them. The firewall isn't a strong point for mounting something like that. A basic design, solid sway bar would work better unless the firewall was reinforced. I've yet to read any positive feedback from tri-braces and just looking at the overall design, you can see that as a corner is moving up/down it will be pulling that bar, and therefore firewall itself, to it.
No, I have a video on anti-roll bars if you'd like to watch.
You've missed something, the most important function of a strut bar is to increase rigidity of the chassis. When you corner or hit a bump, the chassis will compress and bend slightly between the struts, the strut bar is there to minimise the compression, hence improve rigidity.
um sorry, what?! that's literally one of the first things he said lmao
Hold this L macbrush
Depending if you track it or not, perhaps. Basically you're just ensuring a bit more that the body stays as is.
Aren't you one of the Beatles?
That would likely cause uneven wear when you don't need it (ie going straight).
Dude would you please simplify your videos like I got lost the first 45 seconds💯🔥👌
One thing I have wondered is, why strut bars have oval holes for the bolts? Is this to allow flex or adjust for misalignment? It just seems odd that if the bar is supposed to increase rigidity, but at the same time is allowing some form of flex or movement from the strut towers.
Dear Engineer, the force analysis of mechanisms can not be performed like your ıntiutive approach. You should first learn degree of freedom of joints. A revolute joint as in chassis side of the lower control arms has one freedom in rotation along its axis and there can not be a moment reaction which you wrote as "friction moment" thus your all analysis is wrong.
What youre talking about? the pivot point of the lower control arm is not coincident with the friction vector... therefore there MUST be a moment created lol
Why are some strut bars mounted to the top of the strut tower and some are mounted with the top of the shocks? Does this effect performance? Which is better?
+Engineering Explained Does adding a strut bar to a car reduce or increase stress on the original chassis? Basically, would it prolong a chassis's structural integrity or the opposite?
Alex Yang depends on how you drive. increasing the rigidity of the vehicle puts more stress to the tires. I noticed this after I put a front sway bar on my 96 corolla. I got wayyyyy less body roll but noticed my tires wear faster. then again the increased stability gave me more confidence to corner faster soooo it's debatable.
Exactly what I have been looking for ! Intelligent scientific explanation of cars - just brilliant and thank you 🙏
Would a strut bar be beneficial or counterproductive for a damaged strut tower? I have a strut tower with a hole in it (not due to rust) and would like to do something to strengthen it and keep the hole from getting any bigger.
WHY Manufacture never install , i dont think really work
My car manufacture install proton preve
They're installed from the factory on some premium cars, like Shelby Mustangs.
Depends how much force it actually sees. As it's a double wishbone suspension they may be fine as is.
can someone PLEASE do some double blind testing with and without a strut bar? include lap times as well. everyone says "the car FEELS better" etc. but there's ZERO proof on the entire internet that these actually do anything.
lampim. Agreed. The car might feel a bit "tighter" as the slight ( as in thousands of an inch) flexing of the strut towers would be reduced, but actual lap times would be the same. The crap ones shown in this video are weak at the brackets, as the brackets extend upwards and can flex themselves. The bars are bent, which in itself is a weak design. And the brace is not triangulated to the firewall, therefore the strut towers could technically flex front to rear. Mostly rubish! If your strut towers are flexing that much, the car is scary weak.
Most tower bars won't be straight because it needs to actually get over the engine. Or they will need to be raised. There's no way around that
Just another point to further reduce flexing.
strutbar are a marketing scam , just like sport airfilters.. its good bussines
Free man most of the time, but not always.
Sebastian Tri for a high flow intake to work, you need a high flow exhuast for the air to escape as fast as its going in.
Its not marketing some of the times. The fact is... It will depend on the quality of the bar but most important the state of the car. A 10 year old car might notice a huge difference, while a 1 year car wouldnt notice difference at all.
Strut braces are also used on racing.
Sorry to say this, but my struts that had a little over 80k miles, felt newer after putting on my strut tower brace bar. But now, I have been riding on Koni yellow sport shocks and struts with that same strut bar. It is even more wicked of a ride. Oh... and I put them in my vehicle myself too! Even modded my car to accept the Koni yellow sport struts to go onto, since Koni doesn’t make their yellow sports for it.
Does strut bars effect comfort of the car as the force gets transferred from one side to another while hitring bumps? Is it OK & good to use strut bar in a bumpy road or is it meant for a flat carpeted road?
Can use this on a bycicle? Lol
Yes and on your nuts
have you done it before ?
+henry Sanson what brand are looking for ??
+Ashton Thao for the one that adds like 50 hp lmao
+shinkueagle but then he needs drag tires
If it was noticeably negative camber, it's just for show. In all likelihood the handling would be worse and the tire would wear unevenly.
jesus christ, i just need a simple explanation, how to install it, not a college math class
So watch my video on how to install it, and be grumpy about your new found knowledge.
hahaha get some performance stickers and that will give you a whopping five horse power to the wheels my main point with my car is a solid transmission and handling and I'm also installing a roll cage and working seat belts. when I was in the fire dept I seen some nasty shit I'm talking brains in the console that was enough for me to change my plan I haven't done nothing to my cars paint or carpet I went straight for the motor but this guy could come with a straight answer I like you're style
+Martin Corleone There is a link on the right of the screen to watch other videos...it's real easy just click onn one of them and you can watch MCM or some other BS channel instead of learning something, lol. Just my thoughts...
Martin Corleone Where is collage math in there?
Martin Corleone
Engineering Explained is primarily for explaining the engineering. Imagine that.
Why OBD1?
great video, just wonder if there is any disadvantage of installing a strut bar? For normal people driving a normal car, do we need strut bar? many thanks
Do these work in tandem with or separately from sway bars?
I wouldn't call it the "strongest shape in physics." If anything, that would be awarded to circles as they distribute stress the most evenly - hence the use of cylinders in many structural systems, and why you can stand on an empty soda can without it crushing. That said, triangles are a strong shape in 2d, as they don't allow for movement as easily (degress of freedom) like a square.
This guy knows his stuff. Great videos
I'm leaning towards an STI, but I want to hear about the new model.