Hey everyone, hope you enjoyed the video! Feel free to discuss Steve and Tier List stuff in the comments, but please be mature with your discussions. The last thing I want is my comment section to become a battleground.
I actually talked about this with some people at a tournament I frequent. The problem with certain tech Steve can do is that not all of it is clear if it was intentional or worked. You can tell when you're wobbled or when MK is scrooging, but it's much harder to see if Steve actually implemented a glitch or just having a multihit fail for some reason. If it were something as simple as a wobble, then we could easily ban the techniques, piece of cake. The issue is that they are both numerous (especially with how much probably isn't even discovered yet) and hard to detect. A lot of people are deciding that it's better to ban Steve than to ban the glitches. Also, it does still stand that Steve hasn't won a crazy amount of supermajors, but that also doesn't shed light on slightly lower levels, like "tri-state" tourneys Just finished watching the video entirely. I can see what you're trying to say for banning the tech first, but the issue is trying to convince people otherwise. Also, for the tier list, it's somewhat solid. Nowhere near perfect, but it's got a great base. Not to mention that we have to see how.it stands the test of a constantly evolving meta
I really just wanna see a steve villain pop up, one who shamelessly uses this tech and steve to his fullest potential and just trash talks everyone. It would be so funny.
You can’t just ban the tech. It seems like you really haven’t thought this through. You should watch Larry Lurrs video. It takes way too many resources to determine if it happened and enforce it. Especially in a huge tournament. It needs to either be patched, or Steve banned. Banning the tech is unreasonable. Tier lists continue to be nearly useless in this game. An “official” one doesn’t really change that.
The problem with your argument about all of the "banned techniques" you mentioned is that all of them are easily tracked or proven. Airtime and ledge grabs are statistics that the game tracks and can be seen at the end of every match, and Wobbling/Bomber Stall/Pound Stall/etc are all clear as day when it happens The problem with this tech is that it's not always obvious when it happens, even to the player being hit, or during the replay. The only player who knows for sure that it happened is the Steve player, because the tech mostly only affects one of the most inconsistent mechanics in the game: multi-hit moves. The only indication that the tech has occurred is that Steve magically falls out of a multi-hit, and occasionally (not always) an icon will appear beneath Steve. I don't like the ban, either, but unless a more concrete way to track the tech is found, or it gets patched out, then I really do believe it's necessary to ban the character
@@jaydenhohman2590 a lot of characters like Pit have janky multihits, if Steve falls out of a multihit without doing the tech people would not know without taking a lot of time analyzing the match trying to find a hard to spot tech.
@@josephtpg7329 Okay. Then analyze it, it would take literally 3 minutes and it's not like there's gonna be 30 Steve's at one tournament it really won't be that difficult to monitor it
@@jaydenhohman2590 there are definitely gonna be a lot of Steve mains at tournaments if Steve goes unbanned. The amount of Steve mains has been on the rise, if even 5 Steve mains were in a tourney and 3 of them were accused of abusing the tech, that's 9 minutes of analyzing. Of course, there are gonna be way more than 5 Steve mains in a tourney.
My only concern with the ban as you said is what happens with international competitors and tournaments when there is no universal consensus. Otherwise, like many people are saying, tracking this tech (especially in online brackets) would be an immense headache compared to other ban-worthy tech in the past. It makes more sense to not allow a character to compete who can theoretically steal a game and tournament prize money by taking advantage of subtle design glitches with an already top-tier character.
Ima hard disagree with not banning steve, even before this busted tech was announced i was all for a steve ban and thats not cause i hate him, i love minecraft but steve and smash dont work well imo. He just has wayyy too many tools available to him and he can do things NO OTHER character can. Ill avoid the specifics but a big thing is: this is just the tip of the iceberg, he has almost infinite potential and who knows an even more busted tech might be discovered in the future. Banning steve was really the only logical decision because TOs and venues already have enough stuff to worry about, adding 1 more thing on top of that is unreasonable and a controversial one at that, plus I dont think having 1 entity making all the decisions is wise. Thats putting all your eggs in 1 basket so to speak.
I enjoy your content and think it's consistently high quality. That said, the basketball example is a flawed analogy. Banning a player would have serious ramifications on their career, salary, and reputation. Not to mention it could hurt an entire team's chances of success. Moreover, enforcing a goal tending rule in basketball is easy for professional referees to spot and causal fans to notice. By contrast, the Steve tech has almost no visual cue in some circumstances. It would be incredibly easy for TO's to miss it in a hectic tournament setting. Plus, what should the penalty be for using the tech? SD? Forfeit the match? Forfeit the entire set? The Steve tech rewards Steve players for losing neutral, which would be like awarding the other team a point every time they lose possession of the ball in basketball.
IMO, the way SSBU tournaments are structured isn't all that great. It's not like we have our own NFL, which is pretty detrimental to the scene when you think about it. No general rulesets are available that run throughout every tournament in the country, so some major tournaments will ban Steve, and others won't. This can be pretty bad because now fewer people will have experience against Steve, and Steve will dominate even more in the tournaments that DO allow him. I could talk about the financial problems the scene is facing as well, but it's self-explanatory at this rate. The official tier list is good, but it screams "skill issue" on multiple occasions. Kazuya should not be as high up as he is, and some characters are surprisingly too low. You can tell the list is more based on recent results and popularity and not based on character strengths. While that isn't inherently bad, it is flawed. I also don't like that Marth placement. He should be in low A tier. His match-up spread is too good for that placement, but he hasn't gotten the results yet to show the top players up. Still, it's a good list.
As always, tier lists aren't usually supposed to be relied upon. Even "official" ones can make mistakes or be subject to opinions. Also, Kazu does deserve to be that high. His advantage state being a much easier 0td than a vast majority of the cast (see Ice Climbers or Bayonetta) and massive killpower makes up a ton for his flaws
@Survivor of the Curse His disadvantage is super bad, though, and he loses hard to zoners (and there's a decent amount in the game). Then you have swordies that do well against Kazuya, and then Steve... He's a high tier, not a top tier. I guess he's top tier, nowadays since most people don't know how to fight him. I see people respect him too much. I do agree that tier lists will always be flawed and therefore unreliable, but that doesn't mean I can't share any criticisms.
The only issue is bracket time for the Steve tech. Personally, I'd ban Steve in Online as brackets may take too long trying to find when the PMLG of the screenshared/phone recorded replay, and either give the round or set to the person reporting. Takes too much time. Offline the TECH should be banned, as its a lot easier and way less time consuming than Online to get the replay.
The problem is theres also thousands of matches a day at big tournaments. If you think the TOs (usually a group of 20-30 at most) can just supervise all the Steve matches thats just not going to work.
My problem with this is, at least at the local region I live in, we barely have enough time as is to properly finish our weeklies, monthlies, and big local tourneys before the venue closes for the day. Adding this nonsense every single time there's a Steve player in our region would kill much needed time the TOs in our region badly needs to run other sets instead.
Hot take, Kirby should at least be low B, high C tier. He has good edge guards and decent kill power, as well as good mix-ups and shield pressure. Dair in particular in tandem with up tilt and his other aerials. Yes, he does have short range and he is light, but that does make him slightly harder to combo. I could be wrong, I am no smash veteran, just speaking from experience.
While Kirby does have a pretty decent advantage, the rest of his character is pretty rough. His neutral isn’t great due to his extremely low air speed and stubby hit boxes. His disadvantage is abysmal. He gets juggled easily due to his low fall speed and lack of decent landing hit boxes. Kirby’s out of shield game is pretty bad with nair being the fastest option at frame 9-10 iirc. Kirby recovery is pretty bad too. His low jumps along with bad air speed and recovery leads to him getting edge guarded very easily.
Agreed. He has good highs, but the lows are way too much, especially considering how easily he can be countered. A ton of characters can wall out, juggle, and create safe pressure. That's mostly what the heart of tier placement is: an overall judgement of how well that character performs over the majority of the characters
Goddamn people are underestimating Mewtwo in Ultimate as well, in Melee people call him bottom tier garbage when in reality he's a mid tier, and in Ultimate people call him a mid tier when in reality he's he a high tier!
I understand where you're coming from but there's another hidden reason behind the banned. It's to force Nintendo to do a much needed patch to the game. I'm sure everyone would love one more balance patch for specific characters such a Kazuya's 0 to death combo and such. Banning Steve worldwide will instigate another Ultimate patch for sure. Wouldn't you say so?
Or Nintendo doesn’t care which has been proven time and time again and instead since the smash community loves naivety and pedophilic activities and protects pedophiles where they not only aren’t banned but they make money off the community which is disgusting in so many levels the smash community or at least the loud ones decided for the whole world of smash to ban a entire community of players who have been practicing and figuring out new tech for there character since Steve release . All that work these individuals made are for nothing just because the majority of pro players with a platform deemed the character broken. They won’t even wait for tourney results which was the most logical way to go about this issue. Smash community deserves to self implode by its own community again
I still think it would be really cool if we could have sudo squad strike. You can pick 3 characters or just the same one 3 times. It would really open up the game to more variety and interesting strategies. Sadly moding calls down Nintendo so it can't be done
Agreed with WFT. Most other reactions I’ve watched they agree with it and say they suck and it boggles my mind. That character has a lot going for them there’s no way they’re low tier.
I love Mewtwo, but they're so hard to play. I know skill issue, but it takes more mental focus to do well with them then other characters. Pikachu and Pokemon Trainer are easier, and sometime more fun to play. Because I don't HAVE to do tight timing techs. I'm just bad now, but I'm hoping to get better at doing instant double jumps.
DISABLE ALONE puts Mewtwo in B tier; it's a move like falcon punch or ridley down b skewer tail EXCEPT when you miss it- So what? It's an absurdly high reward; little risk move. All the other stuff solidifies Mewtwo in A tier imo. If Cloud can still be considered top 10 while having a poor and very gimp able recover like chrom (worse than lil mac without limit) then Mewtwo's strengths as well can be overcome to achieve amazing results too
Tbh, A Tier list doesn't mean nothing to me. In the dbz lore: Goku said "Any low class warrior can surpass an elite, witg hard work, effort and if the fighter puts his mind to it." I main Mewtwo, Falcon and Lucario from the very best to my least best.
I hate to break it to you, but everything has its limits. Just because you play Ganon a ton doesn't mean you'll get to grandfinals at moderately large tournaments. I can get behind the idea on a moderate scale. Ignaize, Lima, and Akakikusu have made leaps and bounds with surprising characters (P.S. Reminder that Goku died multiple times. Kirby hasn't) /hj
I'm kinda mad steve is this good, minecraft is my favorite video game so of couse Im gonna main steve, lucky for me unlike other steve mains I did not drop my old mains being sonic and grenininja, and I hate playing broken characters but I love the depth steve has, I hope they do another balance patch that fixes steve and slighter nerfs him in combos and camping by making blocks easier to break (like make projectiles able to break them and make dirt break in one hit by everything or something) and reduce damage of most attacks and increese knockback growth a bit on some attacks, and/or make uptilt slower, I hate these types of moves I can just spam and walk with (mega man is cool tho)
Finally someone thh he at says it how is cloud top 10 spargo is very goated. He is very good and could be s tier but with his limitations I don’t think he should be that high
As bad as a character he is, nothing stops the fact DK can still kill you at 60 from ding dong. Lol That being said, Mew2 is higher then people think to the point that Mkleo was scared enough to cover the character from getting a rank in his old tier list. We all know he never cared what people think…..this was BEFORE buffs(but also before some DLC). Character is definitely high mid tier minimum. As for his advantage state being some of the best in the game, I can’t say that’s actually true. I’ve seen your play, and you definitely get away with way too much due to online and probably aren’t ready for real risk/reward strats that META RELEVANT players could throw at you.
Airtime rules are so easy to track compared to counting frames to check if pmlg was used. What local or even major is going to look through every time steve gets combo'd by sheik or peach or rob to see if they didn't pmlg to airdodoge 1 frame earlier? It's a lot of effort to attempt to ban something that we know is impossible to implement. Even if a major is run and they succesfully call out any pmlgs, this fact still remains and is not tennable. And I don't see why steve being beaten by top players or if he wasn't represented by top players is relevant at all. Just fuck everyone else then and leave the possibility open. I can see 2 possibilities - ban steve, or remove pmlg with an unofficial patch.
Despite the DK hate automatically making you my enemy (LMAO jk, but I DO NOT think he's bottom 10) I also think this list has quite a few hot takes in top 10. I don't normally care about the tier meta, but not having Mario in top 15 is CRAZY to me
Same here with DK and Mario. And Pika being not top 5 is insane to me. The only reason for it is because its results based. Nothing can convince me otherwise
Joker is broken, but i don't think he is top 3. The thing is that they look any results and MKLeo exists, so he is really high, bit i think that other characters should be higher
Phones can record Steve sets, players can remember when it might have happened, find that part, send a 5 second clip, and let TOS go frame by frame. Either he takes damage and doesn't move (no icon sighting required) or it's something else (SDI = movement, slipout = no damage on a given hit). I'm baffled that people got fixated on the inconvenience of reviewing saved replays.
The tech only got discovered a week ago. I think letting it play out for now would have been a better decision. We don’t know how broken it is yet. I still don’t think steve is as bad as smash 4 bayo or brawl metaknight.
Why wouldn't Cloud be top 10? His Bair is better than many characters' entire movesets. He has good mobility, reversal tool, range, kill power, damage output, good weight and fall values, all desirable traits in a meta with Kazuya, Joker, Roy, Aegis, Sonic, and Peach. Pikachu for all his supposed goodness his meta impact in the 4 years of Ultimate has been laughable, people make excuses that he is hard to play yet more people play Peach, and both were soft banned in the covid era by Nintendo's awful online. There's no excuses, if Pikachu is so good somebody on planet Earth must have picked him up, but you often hear breakout stories of players using weird characters like Luigi, Bayonetta, Ryu, Corrin, and so on. Joker is accused of being overrated yet more people play him than Pikachu, even during the covid era. More people play Shulk, Sheik, and Pichu than Pikachu. Hell, Zackray, who is among the most talented players on the planet would rather play freaking Pit than Pikachu. And ESAM....he doesn't make the character favors, he often gets upset by unranked players, and loses matchups that in his own words are free. What a broken character right?
@@joecoolberry911 How do you get Cloud offstage though when it's hard to hit him in the first place? Sparg0 very rarely gets sent offstage. The other thing is that Cloud can suicide kill if you attempt to edgeguard him, and he has good air drift to just jump back to the stage, and he has big hitboxes to protect himself on return, and he can stall his momentum with Side B. Nowhere close to bottom 5 recovery.
Saying what Spargo can do with Cloud doesn't justify all Clouds. It is true that a bad disadvantage only applies to being sent into disadvantage in the first place... but not everyone can play at an extremely high level. Being sent offstage on a nearly equal playing field is inevitable; it will happen a sizable amount and there's little circumventing it
C tier is a mess, I don’t agree with jr, mewtwo, Wii fit, Lucas especially, villager robin or Lucario down there i also don’t think Isabelle is D tier :/ I think their all B tier they really made this tier list offa tourney results and online games rather then individually ranking every character that’s just funny to me after all the buffs I thought jr became too easy to win with so to me it just shows tier lists never mattered especially in a game like ult but it also shows that the community will be salty if u win cuz in their eyes jr is low tier and it’s like he’s really not hard to get wins with he can carry u if u played him since Wii U the only bad thing he has is his Grab n recovery being gimpable but it’s not gimpable like Luigi XD whose sitting in b+ tier I could go on n on this tier list is pretty much hey lemme copy ur homework smash community but change just a lil bit about it and it’s really wrong on a lotta levels but yah as I said never cared about tier lists never will and now that Steve is banned Imma start goin to tourneys n playing the game again that ban saved this game for me
Like FR this is so bias who puts Roy n cloud in S tier XD they still see this game as smash 4 in certain aspects Lucina is A+ tier while marth is like bottom of b tier no way dude right next to pichu and iceys
Dude I could go on and on and on about how stupid this official tier list is sheik is like A- tier even thoe she got so nerfed in this game she can still results but u gotta work so hard, Sephiroth A- tier????? Haha what????? This is all made off quickplay n like tourney results it’s not actually based on the real game it’s based on popularity with tourney results and just quickplay results so everyone plays sephiroth so he’s like A+ tier when in reality he’s like a really solid b- at best he’s in the same tier as wario and PT dude no wayyyyy no wayyyy the only right part about this is Imma just copy the general smash consensus that’s the only part that’s right besides shulk bein top 10
@@BigMamaSSB Lower mid tier. And let's be real, that's kinda accurate for him considering he just doesn't work that well and has next to no results. This reminds me of Smogon tiering system, where you don't know which one is the absolute best but you have a mostly accurate vision of the meta at the time. Btw, is likely that Marth will rise a bit for a good reason: MkLeo. That's how tier lists work: Someone sucks until proven otherwise.
"Here's my new teir list everyone!" "Boo this list doesn't match up to my standards!" Honestly, I've never listened to teir lists. I've just played the game as best as I can.
They're definitely a thing, and there is some concreteness in them, it's not all opinions. Zero made a video discussing if you have to main a top tier to be good
@@dogyX3 Oh I do agree that there is some level of truth to them. I just hate how...touchy people get about them and how they get mad at the creator of each list. It's silly.
There's a limit to everything. While they do have a general idea of how good or bad characters are, it's hard to make an official one. Also, tier lists tend to leave a flaw in a lot of the lower player base: seeing what is good or bad, but not why or how
@@survivorofthecurse717 I agree. Mainly because top players play the "top teir" characters to win. They don't want to put in the hours to truly learn the low rank ones. Can’t fully blame them though.
It's not exactly because "they don't want to put in hours on low tiers", per se. A lot of times, it's because people value a strong, but consistent performance. You'll rarely see that in "low/mid" tier characters because of how frequently they struggle in certain matchups. Yes, everything has counterplay: but how frequently you can counterplay it makes it that much more of a struggle One other food for thought is that most characters that are higher up have strong movement. It may not seem like much now, but the more you experience and watch, the more you'll see how powerful movement is
Hey everyone, hope you enjoyed the video! Feel free to discuss Steve and Tier List stuff in the comments, but please be mature with your discussions. The last thing I want is my comment section to become a battleground.
I actually talked about this with some people at a tournament I frequent. The problem with certain tech Steve can do is that not all of it is clear if it was intentional or worked. You can tell when you're wobbled or when MK is scrooging, but it's much harder to see if Steve actually implemented a glitch or just having a multihit fail for some reason. If it were something as simple as a wobble, then we could easily ban the techniques, piece of cake. The issue is that they are both numerous (especially with how much probably isn't even discovered yet) and hard to detect. A lot of people are deciding that it's better to ban Steve than to ban the glitches. Also, it does still stand that Steve hasn't won a crazy amount of supermajors, but that also doesn't shed light on slightly lower levels, like "tri-state" tourneys
Just finished watching the video entirely. I can see what you're trying to say for banning the tech first, but the issue is trying to convince people otherwise. Also, for the tier list, it's somewhat solid. Nowhere near perfect, but it's got a great base. Not to mention that we have to see how.it stands the test of a constantly evolving meta
My name is Steve and I've gotta say this recent controversy in Smash has taken a major emotional toll.
Steve corndog huh, ok doc
Ledge grab and air time are tracked by the game itself and told at the end of the game. That is why those are significantly easier to enforce
I really just wanna see a steve villain pop up, one who shamelessly uses this tech and steve to his fullest potential and just trash talks everyone. It would be so funny.
You can’t just ban the tech. It seems like you really haven’t thought this through. You should watch Larry Lurrs video. It takes way too many resources to determine if it happened and enforce it. Especially in a huge tournament. It needs to either be patched, or Steve banned. Banning the tech is unreasonable.
Tier lists continue to be nearly useless in this game. An “official” one doesn’t really change that.
The problem with your argument about all of the "banned techniques" you mentioned is that all of them are easily tracked or proven. Airtime and ledge grabs are statistics that the game tracks and can be seen at the end of every match, and Wobbling/Bomber Stall/Pound Stall/etc are all clear as day when it happens
The problem with this tech is that it's not always obvious when it happens, even to the player being hit, or during the replay. The only player who knows for sure that it happened is the Steve player, because the tech mostly only affects one of the most inconsistent mechanics in the game: multi-hit moves. The only indication that the tech has occurred is that Steve magically falls out of a multi-hit, and occasionally (not always) an icon will appear beneath Steve.
I don't like the ban, either, but unless a more concrete way to track the tech is found, or it gets patched out, then I really do believe it's necessary to ban the character
Bro it's easy to see lol you can literally see hit stun being eliminated it is not difficult to track
@@jaydenhohman2590 a lot of characters like Pit have janky multihits, if Steve falls out of a multihit without doing the tech people would not know without taking a lot of time analyzing the match trying to find a hard to spot tech.
@@josephtpg7329 Okay. Then analyze it, it would take literally 3 minutes and it's not like there's gonna be 30 Steve's at one tournament it really won't be that difficult to monitor it
@@jaydenhohman2590 there are definitely gonna be a lot of Steve mains at tournaments if Steve goes unbanned. The amount of Steve mains has been on the rise, if even 5 Steve mains were in a tourney and 3 of them were accused of abusing the tech, that's 9 minutes of analyzing. Of course, there are gonna be way more than 5 Steve mains in a tourney.
@@josephtpg7329 that’s IF they only played one game. It’s even more time consuming if they make it far in bracket.
It’s crazy how no one ever talks about M2s strengths. But I suppose they never really see them.
I never hear about him but that is likely because I ain't the most active smash fan.
My only concern with the ban as you said is what happens with international competitors and tournaments when there is no universal consensus. Otherwise, like many people are saying, tracking this tech (especially in online brackets) would be an immense headache compared to other ban-worthy tech in the past. It makes more sense to not allow a character to compete who can theoretically steal a game and tournament prize money by taking advantage of subtle design glitches with an already top-tier character.
It's less of a headache than they're making it out to be.
BYE BYE STEVE
I can’t believe he explained it in basketball terms
Ima hard disagree with not banning steve, even before this busted tech was announced i was all for a steve ban and thats not cause i hate him, i love minecraft but steve and smash dont work well imo. He just has wayyy too many tools available to him and he can do things NO OTHER character can. Ill avoid the specifics but a big thing is: this is just the tip of the iceberg, he has almost infinite potential and who knows an even more busted tech might be discovered in the future.
Banning steve was really the only logical decision because TOs and venues already have enough stuff to worry about, adding 1 more thing on top of that is unreasonable and a controversial one at that, plus I dont think having 1 entity making all the decisions is wise. Thats putting all your eggs in 1 basket so to speak.
I enjoy your content and think it's consistently high quality. That said, the basketball example is a flawed analogy. Banning a player would have serious ramifications on their career, salary, and reputation. Not to mention it could hurt an entire team's chances of success. Moreover, enforcing a goal tending rule in basketball is easy for professional referees to spot and causal fans to notice.
By contrast, the Steve tech has almost no visual cue in some circumstances. It would be incredibly easy for TO's to miss it in a hectic tournament setting. Plus, what should the penalty be for using the tech? SD? Forfeit the match? Forfeit the entire set?
The Steve tech rewards Steve players for losing neutral, which would be like awarding the other team a point every time they lose possession of the ball in basketball.
Such a great video! Props to you NotBae! Thoroughly enjoyed this one 🙏🏼
The final message pushed me hard like a smash on 85%. Thanks for the video!
"shulk is incredibly strong"
*shows samus and inciniroar fight*
IMO, the way SSBU tournaments are structured isn't all that great. It's not like we have our own NFL, which is pretty detrimental to the scene when you think about it. No general rulesets are available that run throughout every tournament in the country, so some major tournaments will ban Steve, and others won't. This can be pretty bad because now fewer people will have experience against Steve, and Steve will dominate even more in the tournaments that DO allow him. I could talk about the financial problems the scene is facing as well, but it's self-explanatory at this rate.
The official tier list is good, but it screams "skill issue" on multiple occasions. Kazuya should not be as high up as he is, and some characters are surprisingly too low. You can tell the list is more based on recent results and popularity and not based on character strengths. While that isn't inherently bad, it is flawed. I also don't like that Marth placement. He should be in low A tier. His match-up spread is too good for that placement, but he hasn't gotten the results yet to show the top players up. Still, it's a good list.
It takes “skill” to win a losing matchup.
Diddy Kong above Pikachu is questionable
As always, tier lists aren't usually supposed to be relied upon. Even "official" ones can make mistakes or be subject to opinions.
Also, Kazu does deserve to be that high. His advantage state being a much easier 0td than a vast majority of the cast (see Ice Climbers or Bayonetta) and massive killpower makes up a ton for his flaws
@Survivor of the Curse His disadvantage is super bad, though, and he loses hard to zoners (and there's a decent amount in the game). Then you have swordies that do well against Kazuya, and then Steve...
He's a high tier, not a top tier. I guess he's top tier, nowadays since most people don't know how to fight him. I see people respect him too much. I do agree that tier lists will always be flawed and therefore unreliable, but that doesn't mean I can't share any criticisms.
@@newjumpcityjosh9333 Did I say it didn't? What's your point?
The only issue is bracket time for the Steve tech. Personally, I'd ban Steve in Online as brackets may take too long trying to find when the PMLG of the screenshared/phone recorded replay, and either give the round or set to the person reporting. Takes too much time. Offline the TECH should be banned, as its a lot easier and way less time consuming than Online to get the replay.
The problem is theres also thousands of matches a day at big tournaments. If you think the TOs (usually a group of 20-30 at most) can just supervise all the Steve matches thats just not going to work.
My problem with this is, at least at the local region I live in, we barely have enough time as is to properly finish our weeklies, monthlies, and big local tourneys before the venue closes for the day. Adding this nonsense every single time there's a Steve player in our region would kill much needed time the TOs in our region badly needs to run other sets instead.
Hot take, Kirby should at least be low B, high C tier. He has good edge guards and decent kill power, as well as good mix-ups and shield pressure. Dair in particular in tandem with up tilt and his other aerials. Yes, he does have short range and he is light, but that does make him slightly harder to combo. I could be wrong, I am no smash veteran, just speaking from experience.
While Kirby does have a pretty decent advantage, the rest of his character is pretty rough. His neutral isn’t great due to his extremely low air speed and stubby hit boxes. His disadvantage is abysmal. He gets juggled easily due to his low fall speed and lack of decent landing hit boxes. Kirby’s out of shield game is pretty bad with nair being the fastest option at frame 9-10 iirc. Kirby recovery is pretty bad too. His low jumps along with bad air speed and recovery leads to him getting edge guarded very easily.
Agreed. He has good highs, but the lows are way too much, especially considering how easily he can be countered. A ton of characters can wall out, juggle, and create safe pressure. That's mostly what the heart of tier placement is: an overall judgement of how well that character performs over the majority of the characters
Goddamn people are underestimating Mewtwo in Ultimate as well, in Melee people call him bottom tier garbage when in reality he's a mid tier, and in Ultimate people call him a mid tier when in reality he's he a high tier!
Love this guy
Hello love your videos you helped me get better with my favorite guy which is Mewtwo love your videos!!!(:
I understand where you're coming from but there's another hidden reason behind the banned. It's to force Nintendo to do a much needed patch to the game. I'm sure everyone would love one more balance patch for specific characters such a Kazuya's 0 to death combo and such.
Banning Steve worldwide will instigate another Ultimate patch for sure. Wouldn't you say so?
Or Nintendo doesn’t care which has been proven time and time again and instead since the smash community loves naivety and pedophilic activities and protects pedophiles where they not only aren’t banned but they make money off the community which is disgusting in so many levels the smash community or at least the loud ones decided for the whole world of smash to ban a entire community of players who have been practicing and figuring out new tech for there character since Steve release . All that work these individuals made are for nothing just because the majority of pro players with a platform deemed the character broken. They won’t even wait for tourney results which was the most logical way to go about this issue. Smash community deserves to self implode by its own community again
Lol doubtful, Nintendo doesn't give a shit about the competitive scene.
I still think it would be really cool if we could have sudo squad strike. You can pick 3 characters or just the same one 3 times. It would really open up the game to more variety and interesting strategies. Sadly moding calls down Nintendo so it can't be done
Vars recently made a why no one plays mewtwo vid, i'd be interested in your take on it
Agreed with WFT. Most other reactions I’ve watched they agree with it and say they suck and it boggles my mind. That character has a lot going for them there’s no way they’re low tier.
I love Mewtwo, but they're so hard to play. I know skill issue, but it takes more mental focus to do well with them then other characters. Pikachu and Pokemon Trainer are easier, and sometime more fun to play. Because I don't HAVE to do tight timing techs. I'm just bad now, but I'm hoping to get better at doing instant double jumps.
DISABLE ALONE puts Mewtwo in B tier; it's a move like falcon punch or ridley down b skewer tail EXCEPT when you miss it-
So what? It's an absurdly high reward; little risk move. All the other stuff solidifies Mewtwo in A tier imo. If Cloud can still be considered top 10 while having a poor and very gimp able recover like chrom (worse than lil mac without limit) then Mewtwo's strengths as well can be overcome to achieve amazing results too
Tbh, A Tier list doesn't mean nothing to me. In the dbz lore: Goku said "Any low class warrior can surpass an elite, witg hard work, effort and if the fighter puts his mind to it." I main Mewtwo, Falcon and Lucario from the very best to my least best.
I hate to break it to you, but everything has its limits. Just because you play Ganon a ton doesn't mean you'll get to grandfinals at moderately large tournaments.
I can get behind the idea on a moderate scale. Ignaize, Lima, and Akakikusu have made leaps and bounds with surprising characters
(P.S. Reminder that Goku died multiple times. Kirby hasn't) /hj
Holy shit the ending video, 2 stocks 0% damage
I'm kinda mad steve is this good, minecraft is my favorite video game so of couse Im gonna main steve, lucky for me unlike other steve mains I did not drop my old mains being sonic and grenininja, and I hate playing broken characters but I love the depth steve has, I hope they do another balance patch that fixes steve and slighter nerfs him in combos and camping by making blocks easier to break (like make projectiles able to break them and make dirt break in one hit by everything or something) and reduce damage of most attacks and increese knockback growth a bit on some attacks, and/or make uptilt slower, I hate these types of moves I can just spam and walk with (mega man is cool tho)
Shulk main: I've always thought of him as the top of High Tier. So seeing him at the bottom of Top tier sounds exactly right.
I beat a level 9 kazuya in less than two minutes without losing a stock on 5 stocks small battle field with my main mewtwo :)
Finally someone thh he at says it how is cloud top 10 spargo is very goated. He is very good and could be s tier but with his limitations I don’t think he should be that high
As bad as a character he is, nothing stops the fact DK can still kill you at 60 from ding dong. Lol That being said, Mew2 is higher then people think to the point that Mkleo was scared enough to cover the character from getting a rank in his old tier list. We all know he never cared what people think…..this was BEFORE buffs(but also before some DLC). Character is definitely high mid tier minimum. As for his advantage state being some of the best in the game, I can’t say that’s actually true. I’ve seen your play, and you definitely get away with way too much due to online and probably aren’t ready for real risk/reward strats that META RELEVANT players could throw at you.
Airtime rules are so easy to track compared to counting frames to check if pmlg was used. What local or even major is going to look through every time steve gets combo'd by sheik or peach or rob to see if they didn't pmlg to airdodoge 1 frame earlier? It's a lot of effort to attempt to ban something that we know is impossible to implement. Even if a major is run and they succesfully call out any pmlgs, this fact still remains and is not tennable. And I don't see why steve being beaten by top players or if he wasn't represented by top players is relevant at all. Just fuck everyone else then and leave the possibility open.
I can see 2 possibilities - ban steve, or remove pmlg with an unofficial patch.
Despite the DK hate automatically making you my enemy (LMAO jk, but I DO NOT think he's bottom 10) I also think this list has quite a few hot takes in top 10. I don't normally care about the tier meta, but not having Mario in top 15 is CRAZY to me
Same here with DK and Mario. And Pika being not top 5 is insane to me. The only reason for it is because its results based. Nothing can convince me otherwise
@@superstarandfriends2008 Yea 100%
Joker is broken, but i don't think he is top 3. The thing is that they look any results and MKLeo exists, so he is really high, bit i think that other characters should be higher
Phones can record Steve sets, players can remember when it might have happened, find that part, send a 5 second clip, and let TOS go frame by frame. Either he takes damage and doesn't move (no icon sighting required) or it's something else (SDI = movement, slipout = no damage on a given hit). I'm baffled that people got fixated on the inconvenience of reviewing saved replays.
Mewtwo need more representation 😊
Trying to ban only the tech means you're putting all the burden on TOs and tourneys.
Who's being lazy now?
Ridley player since day 1 and he’s in the right spot. Also lol get yoshi out of there.
Mewtwo couldn't beat the mid tier allegations 😭
The only reason why pika is top 5 is because of the tier list being result based. Nothing can convince me otherwise
I meant isnt
I like Mewtwo being down in bottom 20. Now I have a John for sucking at the game.
The tech only got discovered a week ago. I think letting it play out for now would have been a better decision. We don’t know how broken it is yet. I still don’t think steve is as bad as smash 4 bayo or brawl metaknight.
I was done with smash bros forever
Why wouldn't Cloud be top 10? His Bair is better than many characters' entire movesets. He has good mobility, reversal tool, range, kill power, damage output, good weight and fall values, all desirable traits in a meta with Kazuya, Joker, Roy, Aegis, Sonic, and Peach. Pikachu for all his supposed goodness his meta impact in the 4 years of Ultimate has been laughable, people make excuses that he is hard to play yet more people play Peach, and both were soft banned in the covid era by Nintendo's awful online. There's no excuses, if Pikachu is so good somebody on planet Earth must have picked him up, but you often hear breakout stories of players using weird characters like Luigi, Bayonetta, Ryu, Corrin, and so on. Joker is accused of being overrated yet more people play him than Pikachu, even during the covid era. More people play Shulk, Sheik, and Pichu than Pikachu. Hell, Zackray, who is among the most talented players on the planet would rather play freaking Pit than Pikachu. And ESAM....he doesn't make the character favors, he often gets upset by unranked players, and loses matchups that in his own words are free. What a broken character right?
He also has like a bottom 5 recovery. One nairs hits him off stage and he’s dead
@@joecoolberry911 How do you get Cloud offstage though when it's hard to hit him in the first place? Sparg0 very rarely gets sent offstage. The other thing is that Cloud can suicide kill if you attempt to edgeguard him, and he has good air drift to just jump back to the stage, and he has big hitboxes to protect himself on return, and he can stall his momentum with Side B. Nowhere close to bottom 5 recovery.
@@Juan-zs6jt pls don't try and defend this, his recovery is trash
Saying what Spargo can do with Cloud doesn't justify all Clouds. It is true that a bad disadvantage only applies to being sent into disadvantage in the first place... but not everyone can play at an extremely high level. Being sent offstage on a nearly equal playing field is inevitable; it will happen a sizable amount and there's little circumventing it
C tier is a mess, I don’t agree with jr, mewtwo, Wii fit, Lucas especially, villager robin or Lucario down there i also don’t think Isabelle is D tier :/ I think their all B tier they really made this tier list offa tourney results and online games rather then individually ranking every character that’s just funny to me after all the buffs I thought jr became too easy to win with so to me it just shows tier lists never mattered especially in a game like ult but it also shows that the community will be salty if u win cuz in their eyes jr is low tier and it’s like he’s really not hard to get wins with he can carry u if u played him since Wii U the only bad thing he has is his Grab n recovery being gimpable but it’s not gimpable like Luigi XD whose sitting in b+ tier I could go on n on this tier list is pretty much hey lemme copy ur homework smash community but change just a lil bit about it and it’s really wrong on a lotta levels but yah as I said never cared about tier lists never will and now that Steve is banned Imma start goin to tourneys n playing the game again that ban saved this game for me
Like FR this is so bias who puts Roy n cloud in S tier XD they still see this game as smash 4 in certain aspects Lucina is A+ tier while marth is like bottom of b tier no way dude right next to pichu and iceys
Dude I could go on and on and on about how stupid this official tier list is sheik is like A- tier even thoe she got so nerfed in this game she can still results but u gotta work so hard, Sephiroth A- tier????? Haha what????? This is all made off quickplay n like tourney results it’s not actually based on the real game it’s based on popularity with tourney results and just quickplay results so everyone plays sephiroth so he’s like A+ tier when in reality he’s like a really solid b- at best he’s in the same tier as wario and PT dude no wayyyyy no wayyyy the only right part about this is Imma just copy the general smash consensus that’s the only part that’s right besides shulk bein top 10
C tier? How dare!!
C is mid tier not low tier
According to ssbwiki
@@BigMamaSSB Lower mid tier. And let's be real, that's kinda accurate for him considering he just doesn't work that well and has next to no results. This reminds me of Smogon tiering system, where you don't know which one is the absolute best but you have a mostly accurate vision of the meta at the time.
Btw, is likely that Marth will rise a bit for a good reason: MkLeo. That's how tier lists work: Someone sucks until proven otherwise.
Lucas is way too low, he’s always been high mid tier.
How tf is botw is the worst link? He is A- easy
A lot of link top player are agree with this place
@@foxshinehiyaa3933 like who?
@@yotammatsliah5094 IDK but this tier list is based around a lot of top players mind so there is obviously top players link
@@foxshinehiyaa3933 nope, there are actually no link players in the top 100, maybe zomba sometimes play him, but other then him no one.
@@yotammatsliah5094 oh that sad for link players
Well us steve mains can just go creative mode and continue to make online great again...I like to make online players rage quit.
Nah, Mewtwo is bottom 20 unfortunately.
He give some reason of why mewtwo is DEFINITELY not bottom 20
"Here's my new teir list everyone!"
"Boo this list doesn't match up to my standards!"
Honestly, I've never listened to teir lists. I've just played the game as best as I can.
They're definitely a thing, and there is some concreteness in them, it's not all opinions.
Zero made a video discussing if you have to main a top tier to be good
@@dogyX3 Oh I do agree that there is some level of truth to them. I just hate how...touchy people get about them and how they get mad at the creator of each list. It's silly.
There's a limit to everything. While they do have a general idea of how good or bad characters are, it's hard to make an official one.
Also, tier lists tend to leave a flaw in a lot of the lower player base: seeing what is good or bad, but not why or how
@@survivorofthecurse717 I agree. Mainly because top players play the "top teir" characters to win. They don't want to put in the hours to truly learn the low rank ones. Can’t fully blame them though.
It's not exactly because "they don't want to put in hours on low tiers", per se. A lot of times, it's because people value a strong, but consistent performance. You'll rarely see that in "low/mid" tier characters because of how frequently they struggle in certain matchups. Yes, everything has counterplay: but how frequently you can counterplay it makes it that much more of a struggle
One other food for thought is that most characters that are higher up have strong movement. It may not seem like much now, but the more you experience and watch, the more you'll see how powerful movement is