Arrival Deep Dive + Top Denis Villeneuve
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- Опубликовано: 25 авг 2024
- #tyandthatguy #reaction #review #arrival
ARRIVAL DEEP DIVE + TOP DENIS VILLENEUVE
Ty Franck (one half of James S.A. Corey) and Wes Chatham ('Amos Burton' on The Expanse) decided after talking about Alien Invasions they wanted to do a deep dive on the movie Arrival. This is a book and a movie the guys both love so sit back and enjoy...
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*Arrival* gave me a totally different message. For me the movie imparted the importance of meaning. It made me think about what the choices we make *mean* to us and how that can effect future choices or how we see life. We might make different choices if we feel differently about a situation. As Wes said, it was the second viewing that really put me in awe at the themes of the story, as I saw them. As I became emotional at the realization of Louis' memories... I started to ask myself.... Would I choose not to love the people I've loved in this life? Knowing it might "free" me of the pain of losing them eventually? Or is love and life so precious, that no matter the difficulty or pain... I would strive towards them still because even if there is pain or disappointment, there is still so much that I am grateful to have experienced. I dk. I feel like the Heptapods language could be such a gift, if it helped teach all the possible ways an event could affect you. And allow you to reflect on the positives that may lie within what we view as an objectively negative experience. I view their "gift" of the language as a way for our species to outgrow different limiting beliefs & explore what shapes our inner realities. Personally, I really appreciate that thought, whether it was intended or not. Just my 2 cents :) Take Care, Everybody 💓!
Overcoming our evolution and hardwired responses. His short stories touch this in various ways. From how much beauty drives us to the limitations we will soon reach in communicating with AI
One of my all time favorites, so glad you finally got to it!
I like that Wes intuitively knows probability and how it drives choices, and the one story that arrives at this ending.
Awesome podcast never stop doing these. Hi from Ukraine 🇺🇦✌️
Regarding it being hard to invent/write aliens well, I'm curious to know if Ty and Wes have read Octavia Butler's "Lilith's Brood" trilogy. Those books, especially the first one, left me in awe of her ability to think outside the human box.
YES. Absolutely. I'm so happy to see Lilith's Brood show up in the wild, I've recently finished _Dawn_ and _Adulthood Rites,_ and have began _Imago._ I absolutely love what she's done with these aliens, their interaction with humanity, and all the other themes. Special shoutout to **Aldrich Barrett,** who gives a masterpiece narration performance across all three books in the trilogy. This series has given me a lot to consider about the humanity around me, and what _could_ be beyond.
"He's doing the most stupid thing possible" - I mean, people were injecting chlorine just a few years ago. The movie is pretty realistic there.
LOVE Arrival. It’s sad, beautiful, hopeful and heart-wrenching. It’s my favorite kind of beautiful melancholy. Brings to mind The Ocean at the End of the Lane by Neil Gaiman.
Denis is by far my favorite director working right now. Alex Garland is another that’s right there with him. Doesn’t matter what kind of movie, if they’re making it, I’m there. And the fact that we live in a timeline where Denis was able to make the best adaptation of Dune yet is just sublime.
Guys, this is not at all boring! I love your discussions and deep dives. You don't need to hate anything, keep being enlightening and maintain your intellectual discourse! I'd love to see you do a deep dive on Annihilation movie vs book.
Ted Chiang's "Tower of Babylon" from that collection gave me a sense of vertigo. I think it's phenominal.
Amen!
What an intelligent discussion.
Except when they get into politics. Then it flips upside down.
First of all, thank you for the expanse novels and the television series, I've enjoyed both tremendously.
Amos is such a great character both written and portrayed on screen, I would really like to see you play him to his conclusion as described in the final three books of the series.
On the topic of alien aliens I can recommend the book Blindsight and it's follow up Echopraxia by Peter Watts. As they are truly the antithesis of how we humans view ourselves.
The Amazing Ty Franck & Midnight
😉👍🏻
Great video and discussion, cheers guys
You've sold me on reading the book. I love these discussions, there's always plenty of head food.
Came here after seeing your in-depth discussion of the Dune films.
"Arrival" is a film I can't help but think of as a major part of Villeneuve preparing for his life-long project of filming "Dune". His (and Heiserer's) take on Ted Chiang's novella is definitely NOT a deterministic one, as you point out.
But that take is much closer to Paul's "prescience" - he sees possible futures that do branch out only to find that any action he takes closes some off while opening others. In other words, rather than being a fully deterministic one, Dune's universe is a "many worlds" one in which actions at the human level (just as at the quantum level) result in different, branching pathways.
Ironically (given the clear inspiration taken by Frank Herbert from Greek myth in writing his first three Dune books, the closest analogue in Greek myth of the curse of being able to see the future is that of Cassandra, who could see the future but never convince anyone to take her warnings seriously and could never avoid or prevent future tragedies as a result (a pretty deterministic outcome).
The irony lies in the fact that she is a marginal character in the post-Trojan War tragedy of Agamemnon of Mycenae (whose murder she foresaw but could not prevent). Agamemnon is one of the descendents of the House of Atreus - the "Atreides" in Greek - who laboured under a multi-generational curse of the gods.
It’s a fascinating idea and not one that is often considered but giving a character the power to see the future is not necessarily a super power. It makes me think of arguing with friends about Bran from GOT. People were like if he knows the future why does he let things happen, why doesn’t he stop all the death and destruction. Although definitely not explored in the show I think the three eye raven has ability to exist outside of time and see all events past present and future but that doesn’t mean he can change anything from happening the way it was meant to happen. Its a fatalistic way of examining time but still fascinating.
It's why the Oracle needed neo or any seer needs a hero to change a future or prophecy they observe.
Gonna be honest, I was secretly hoping this was the Charlie Sheen Arrival movie. "Would you like to see the ruins my friend?"
The film version of the "future sight makes perfect sense in the exact same way as the novel because she doesn't actually have any agency in that choice. It wasn't a choice it was what she was always going to do. The choice was an illusion. She's experiencing her past not seeing the future.
I found the bomb also some cheap way to create tension, but it makes sense that a smaller part of humanity will react this way and needed to be shown. This was the same message in Contact too.
Even just looking at the pandemic, where all sorts of wrong information were spread that were based of illogical thinking driven by emotions of the unknown, because not all people are taught to think and adapt when not all variables are known in a situation. Instead the old survival instinct kicks in that was useful against bears and tigers in the stone age but not now. But at least most people don't think anymore that something like that is caused by the literal devil or as a punishment from god or gods, like in the old times.
I think with time this group will become smaller and smaller and less disturbing if good education can spread more.
Love Denis Dune on so many levels. Cinematography is beautiful!
There is no point to predetermination if you are fully aware of it because it contradicts the human thought of Free Will. I think that is what they were bringing into this adaptation. It is not that she is 'making a choice' in this adaptation, but showing how she 'believes' she is making a choice, and that is how the predestination occurs. It is the human mind's rationalization of these events. If something is totally predetermined, how would you equate that in a world that aspires to Free Will? It is a change from the original, but I think it displays the mind's acceptance for that which must occur and, in this case, she is aware of all along. Otherwise, it would have been a fully, vicarious experience with no motivation. You are not seeing a choice. You are seeing her rationalization of this 'choice'.
Thanks guys, as usual, for an interesting dive!
Thanks for pouring it into words...I had been thinking about it but couldn't quite put it into words. I also think that when Louis asked Ian if he would change things, it was more like hypothetical question, like playing with what if.
Your Bomb hate made me think of the bomb scene in the similarly themed Contact. Loved that one too.
Wes, Ty, please don’t do the hate episode we love the way you’re handling your podcast
Yes I really dislike hate channels and avoid them like the plague, not to confuse with criticism/reviews.
I love this movie! Thanks for your perspective. One of the best sci-fi movies of all time IMO.
Who says all aliens in star wars like jazz?
Occoms razor.
Makes more sense that that bar is known for jazz and they either go there for the jazz or they just like drinking there XD
Luv your vids guys
Fermat’s Theory of Least time!!!
(That whole discussion made me study math/physics, for one evening, anyway 😆)
Loved this video- thank you!
Love this podcast 🥰
that TNG cut was exactly what i was thinking
There is a phrase "perfect understanding precludes action" - that if we truly understood all the consequences of our actions we would be so overwhelmed that we would be unable to choose what to do - obviously non-trivial things, not the trivial things we all do daily.
Arrival is such an incredible film. And... Sicario is a masterpiece.
24:28 correction, its Jizz.
I love how deeply you analyze both the movie and the novella. I enjoyed both for different reasons that you discuss so well.
This video is perfect timing for me! Literally just watched Arrival early Monday morning before meeting with my editor while we’re working on restructuring a novel. Super excited to watch this!
Great video! As someone who thought BR2049 shouldnt have been made, i fell in love with that movie when I saw it. Would love to hear a deeper dive from Ty and that other guy.
Thought it shouldn't have been made before seeing it, or even after seeing it too?
“The Bene Jesuits”…love it!
The first time I watched it, I was amazed. The second time, I cried. It is so well done, that the mother/daughter and the sacrifice element, and the knowing.
Great discussion chaps. I think Arrival's universe is a deterministic one but it can still have the illusion of free will. The aliens say there is no time, so everything is fixed. Louise only ever remembered the future that she would always choose. It might go differently for others that read her language book.
In an alternate universe, they got Denis Villeneuve’s THE Arrival, starring Charlie Sheen…
The Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis that this is based around - that language physically affects the brain - was around for a long time. It plays a key role in Heinlein’s Stranger in a Strange Land, for crying out loud. As far as I know, linguists don’t give it much credence anymore. STNG was big when I was taking linguistics classes in college, so we word nerds had plenty of fun with the name. You do think differently in different languages, but it doesn’t cause your brain to perceive the whole of time.
One does indeed think differently in different languages, thus to me that already proves the sapir-whorf hypothesis, since anyone that knows multiple languages will just know what it does to you. yes you wont see the universe differently, but perception in meaning and symbolism changes
I speak five, so yeah, I get that you have to … think in different directions, I guess you could call it, but Sapir-Whorf postulated physical changes. Learning Japanese didn’t give me superpowers, but I did have to learn to think ahead of my mouth because so much of Japanese grammar is inverted from that of English. (But if you come into it knowing German - like I did - it’s a snap because academic German works the same way.)
NOT BORING. Keep doing what you guys do 👍
When you know the future you can influence it. Most of us don't know but I sometimes get a sliver of future in my head (non of them huge important moments) and I can change them or let them play out as they come. You only can change them because you know what the outcome is when you don't change the moment. So in the end, most of us don't have a choice as it already happened in the future.
But in the end I still have the illusion I make choices.
Just ordered the book off ebay. UK cover is way better. Plus as a Canadian I like those extra 'u's in my words. :)
25:12 albedo
I didn't know this podcast existed! Can't wait to dive in!
every time they go into interesting detailed conversations they eventually chicken out and call it "boring".. it's not!!! it's what makes this podcast great 🧐
My prediction is that Wes Chatham is playing Eli Vanto in Ahsoka
Top tier discussion 😂
I think Ted Chiang is our current master of the genre. I'm so jealous you guys met him. He seems so mysterious. Exhalation is also brilliant. I await a new book by mr Chiang as I would a new Kubrick movie
Agree about the original written story (one of the best in decades), and the movie (great film and successful adaptation of great text) - despite the two major flaws with the adaptation.
I can't wait to watch it again now that I've heard this discussion.
Would love to hear your take on a classic from an earlier era (Heinlein's All You Zombies) and the relatively recent film adaptation (Predestination), and the effectiveness of the (somewhat similar) changes they made to that story. Personally I think it's the best adaptation of the first Grand Master's work, better than Starship Troopers or the earlier Red Planet animations.
Ty's take on experiencing all time and being able to change it took me back to the Ninth Doctor and the Bad Wolf storyline, or maybe it was the Tenth and Doctor Donna. Anyway, him explaining what it was like in his head, seeing it all at once and seeing the changes his own choices constantly made, seeing it all fizzing around him constantly. No wonder the character needs frequent resets!
Ah, subtitles are such a joy... see, I always got it wrong. Seems they are called the "Benny Jesuits"...
30:01 Jeez do you WANT that kind of audience?
Ken Chiang’s short story about the “evolution of human science” might make for an interesting movie as well. When science relies on brain interface to do research. NueroLink anyone? Not so far off.
Along with his short story “Understand”. Also one called See” about the affects of appearance and commercialization.
I really hated the bomb at first too. I was just like, "OMG that's so dumb, why would they ever write this in"... After watching it more with a "Arrival" like view, I thought... "Oh, of course they have to have the bomb!" If they didn't kill Abbott then Louise wouldn't have gone in to talk with Costello, and get her final "time scale" upgrade so she truly experiences the non-linear time that the heptapods do. It was just part of the circle.
Humans are so abstract. Take language and how we take it for granted. The weather will be “hot”. How hot? Referring to how one’s date looks. Very interest!
Great movie. Good chats
Great film choice guys, I love this movie. Gotta disagree with Ty on both the bomb and Louise’s choices. While I haven’t read the novella it feels more like a purely intellectual thought experiment whereas the movie, and the introduction of the bomb, reflects how dumb humans are, and that there would be some nationalist/ species-ist reaction to first contact. And the reason why Louise having a choice in the movie works is because she’s learning how to see the past, present, and future, she wasn’t able to do this a child or teen, whereas in the book she’s already in the middle of it.
Side note: Congrats Wes on the Ashoka casting, I can’t wait for the premiere. I’ve avoided all the trailers so I was completely unaware😊
Lastly, you guy’s should review Talk to Me
Edit: After the WGA and SAG-AFTRA get all of their demands met of course
Wes keeps bringing up January 6th. He does so contextually, as if arrival was a commentary on that event. Arrival came out in 2016, so it seems as though our host is engaging in projection or at least a mishapprehension of intent on the filmmakers.
16:42 I would have gone with Christopher Walken in The Dead Zone.
Well, Ty, Dr John Bell proved that “the speed of light in a vacuum” is definitely NOT universal !!!
By choosing two great optical telescopes, one in the Northern Hemisphere, one in the Southern Hemisphere, and pointing one as “north’s” as possible and the other as “south” as possible (effectively in as “opposite directions “ as was possible) and focusing as far as each effectively could, he sampled the light spectrum caught by each…and contrasted the findings.
And I chose contrasted as opposed to compared because they were DIFFERENT.
One showed light moving FASTER than it does “near the Earth”, and the other showed light moving slower than it does in “our neighborhood”.
The (not implication) REVELATION this made was that what we consider the “speed of light” is ONLY the speed of light HERE.
I don’t understand how the science community can find this in ANY WAY unbelievable… as Einstein’s ENTIRE WORK was the study of RELATIVITY.
Well, the S.O.L. is ALSO relative.
I think the emphasis on visual story telling really did restrict the script of blade runner. I thought it was a bit touching though.
Add me for seeing that version of Die Hard!
I agree with Ty about the bomb. But Wes is also right about the stupidity of people.
Naaa naaa keep the program the way it is…. These convos are good- even when Ty gets technical lol
Yeah we are all expanse fans here after all, technical is what we love.
Any thoughts on the Invasion tv show? Maybe for a next episode of this pod :)
After the Blue by Russel Like was an interesting first contact book. You might not like it.
Hi Guys
don’t really get the “ticking bomb” hate…also, i think we need to get Ted involved in the “choice” discussion 🤔😂
I'm halfway through Leviathan Falls....I'm bracing myself for Life without your characters!
Also hated the bomb on second watch (after reading the story). I don't think Louise actually could have changed her fate. They act like it's a decision, but I do think she's trapped in the movie too (she never makes a decision that wasn't already set).
Nerd stuff is the best, its not boring!
Basically every time travel story involving the changing of the past is badly thought through. People try to apply the momentary human sense of time to the whole of spacetime.
If you want to think up a Universe where the past can be changed, there are two possibilities: either you have a _second_ time dimension (along which timelines change), or you have diverging timelines. I'm not aware of any SF that explored the first idea, while the explorations of the second aren't all too consistent. The key point is that if your time travel creates a new timeline, that doesn't mean that the old one would disappear or end (why would it?). So in Back To The Future, if you bring a photo from another timeline, the picture of your brother who doesn't exist in the new timeline would not disappear, the horrible timeline in which Biff is the ruler of Earth would continue even if a better timeline is created.
It’s been years, & Wes still isn’t clear on the galaxy versus star system thing 🙂
yeah I agree with the bomb nonsense
Liturgy.
How can you tell she has a choice, if she does everything she sees and never sees anything that doesn't happen in the future? Maybe she has the illusion of choice, but what she sees in the future is already determined so there's no choice, she just does what humans do in our deterministic universe and acts as though its a choice.
Thanks so much everyone ... I'm with Ty on Dune. Love the book dearly. Love Denis' film too but its just not my Dune.
I don't think you see the future. You live your life non-linearly. Chiang's story comes down firm on determinism.
But at the same time you "make choices." That's what it seems like to us. Just like we perceive certain fields as colours. Blue isn't blue. Choice isn't choice. But we perceive them as those things.
And I think that's in the book and on film. Louise uses the word "choice," because that's the vocabulary she has in English. Heptopod probably does not have that word.
Which ties back to language and how we perceive things.
The Arrival is better.
Jesus I haven't watched in a while and Ty is stage 4 now.
🔔👍🏻
What an awful take on 2049. Sorry, guys, but that story was incredible, and it fully justified the existence of a movie I went into the theatre intending to hate-watch. That it's so far down my list is only because Villeneuve is the finest Hollywood director to come along in the new millennium and has never made anything remotely resembling a bad film.
1. Arrival
2. Prisoners
3. Incendies
4. Sicario
5. Polytechnique
6. Enemy
7. Blade Runner 2049
8. Maelstrom
9. Dune Part I