i am quite the history buff. you can, in a loose way, replace every reference to Seanchan with 'Ancient Rome' and it still makes sense. highly militaristic, Salve owners, invade a country and let them rule themselves until they rebel and then crush them and a very hierarchical social structure. everyone says Seanchan is solely evil but Ancient Rome was the beacon of light and culture but they share so many traits, the Seanchan just have certain elements of Ancient Rome dialed up to 11. Even Luther's invasion of Seanchan contentment is a parallel of how Rome invaded the British Isles, by using local allies to help defeat other local tribes.
I mean we treat Ancient Rome as "good" because we only choose to talk about the positive things that have carried forward from that empire. In reality, Rome destroyed and subjugated countless cultures, and we lost so much history due to roman imperialism. But because the modern "western" world is a child of that imperialism, we tend to ignore the immense damage the Romans did and only focus on the good stuff. All that to say, much like how the Seanchan as nuanced but mostly bad, the real life Roman empire was also REALLY bad, but there is a nuance to it.
58:40 yeah one thing I had really hoped to see and was disappointed not to get was interaction between the Randland ogier and the Gardeners, and some insight into their relative histories.
@Dusty Wheel I am a geology professor and I take special interest in geographical distributions and geological details in fantasy. If you are ever interested, I'd be happy to provide a scientific perspective on such subjects. Great video!
I’m coming to this episode late. My take on the Seanchan as a blending of imperial Rome and imperial China or Japan. I always pictured them in Japanese armor and weapons. The motifs of the ships are more what I was expecting for the lands across the Waste.
A very large continent in the West full of warring tribes is conquered by settlers from the east. It becomes a powerful and militaristic nation that's partially built on slavery. Despite being fundamentally classist, it is possible to reach the highest layer of society purely on merit and/or hard work. It has a hawk banner (hawks belong to the same Accipitridae family as eagles), and a pledge of allegiance. They want to spread their idea of civilization to the rest of the world. They are very ethnically diverse and they speak with Texan accents. The strongest inspiration and parallel for the Seanchan has always been USA for me. They're clearly inspired by a lot of other empires as well (Rome, Persia, China, Egypt, Ottoman etc), but America does seems to have the most similarities.
Loved this episode! Been waiting a while to hear/learn more about the Seanchan. Would love to listen to an episode speculating on the future of the Seanchan after the Last Battle. Also, congrats Matt on your new job with Dragonsteel!
The discussion on why Luthair was sent to conquer Seanchan and whether they knew it was there or not gave me an idea for a theory: Artur Hawkwing wanted to conquer Shara. To do this he sent two armadas, each led my one of his children. The daughter sailed east while the son sailed west because they know that the Earth is round. The daughter’s armada was defeated and disappeared because the plan failed. Instead of forcing Shara to defend two fronts, the armada sent west across the Aryth Ocean came across Seanchan instead. Much like Columbus in the First Age.
Late to this but had a few thoughts while watching that I wanted to add. Firstly, the Ogier on Seanchan. I think a few other things can be added into why they were so different from Westlands Ogier. Ogier live longer lives, and they tell the tales and pass on their knowledge to their young. Loial knew descriptions of people long since dead because those tales had been passed down to him. Now switch that context to a world torn apart by the Breaking and instead of a central Tower attempting to regroup everyone, you only have turmoil and small pockets of Aes Sedai trying to gain their own power base. To the longer lived Ogier, they would appear to have all been corrupted by the War with the Shadow. The males to madness, the females to power. Combine that with hundreds of years this rinses and repeats till Luthair's forces appeared and it honestly makes sense the Ogier probably had to join in the fighting to survive. Additionally power hungry Aes Sedai may not have respected the Groves and Steddings and wanted a place that could make them "normal" be destroyed. And then there's the Ways. Since they only started to grow dark 500 years or so ago, if they connected to Seanchan than we would have heard of it. The Ogier of the westlands could interact, keep their histories going and simply be of help to each other. The one's in Seanchan would have been miles apart, and would have had to survive alone in a continent being over run by war constantly. It's the difference between having an entire village to help you or just your neighbours. In most post apocalyptic stories the small groups become war like, vicious and doing anything to survive while a whole village or city bands together and retains some sense of humanity to them. There may have been plenty of Ogier in Seanchan, but they would have all been isolated and cut off. Since I forgot everything else I wanted to mention as I spent too much time on the Ogier, oops.
Aes Sedai enforced order in a different way than the Seanchan. Seanchan were far more totalitarian, based upon Blood. You might say the masculine approach, using military and Law. Sedai ran on more feminine energy, chaotic, egotistic, personal as to what the individual Sedai thought best. Tar Valon became more of a personality cult.
Robert Jordan wrote a number of Conan stories whose influence you can see in the WoT. Consider the Aes Sedai in the Seanchan continent to rule in a similar fashion to the sorcerers and masters of the arcane in the Hyboriean age. They jealously guarded their own secrets, only training an apprentice far enough to suit their own ends and at all times seeking an advantage through scheming or assassination to attain power over her rivals.
I'm only about 20 minutes in but I have heard a lot of people say the Seanchan is based on the American Empire. I simply do not get that at all other than the slavery aspect. How is this not based on China? Even the name and prounciation. Specifically the Empress Wu Zetian. ALSO, the Confucian plus Buddhism philosophy mix that DID lead to the fact that travel in Buddhist countries used to be the safest in the world no matter how tyrannical their government. China was huge and all most people had to do was take an oath to the Empress and go about their lives.
Yes, of course there were people who knew along why a Suldam could control channelers. But they just smiled and nodded and agreed they were just Channeler Whisperers. Anyone who actually spoke up was killed. Probably the Ad'am maker Guild ended up having to take a vow of silence.
It seems strange to me the Seanchan had so few items of power inspite of having the knowledge and ability to make the ad’am, a ter’angreal. Since they know how to make ter’angreal they know how to make angreal.
I love the proposed Shaido plot, but I would've thought the Seanchan would've gained the Shaido's allegiance by making Sevanna part of the Blood like they did with other Westland nobles, and giving her sul'dam to take control over the channeling Wise Ones, such as Therava not by making them da'covale which I don't think they would've accept under any circumstance
Later in the books, the Seanchan seem bad but not like the shadow - , but don't forget how the Seanchan behaved when they first arrived at Falme- burning whole groups of people, and other horrible mass killings all over the place. They are a great antagonist with lots of complexity. Where Jordan sometimes makes 1-dimensional villains his cultural depth more than makes up for that. It's still close shave for me whether I dislike the Seachan or shadow more. or maybe even the windfinders ;)
Thinking back to Luthair arrival in Seanchan. Isn't their army the Ever Victorious Army? They didn't lose a battle in the consolidation right? Would like to see any notes on this in a future seanchan episode! Great show as always!
Did Robert Jordan know a lot about islamicate history for ideas like Sojihnn, Seekers of the Truth and Deathwatch guard (mamluks, kul, ghulam parallels)
The Seanchan are my favorite culture in the WOT. Their culture is about establishing order and maintaining control over it in the pursuit to prepare for Tarmon Gaidon.
Yes. It's not like the Dark One and Padan Fain and the Forsaken and the Draghkar and Darkhounds and Trollocs and Myrddraal and Dark Friends and Black Ajah aren't enough enemies of the light. Although I think the Matt/Tuon relationship is kind of funny. Sad that Tuon didn't got better, but stayed the same with her views about people that can channel.
I really, really, really dislike what Rafe has done. What he ash done with this mockery of an adaption to the WoT is completely shameful. Non readers are missing so much of the world building, intricate plots, character development, etc. The Seanchan would never create a sunami, like that. The adam is not supposed to look like that. What an insult to RJ's legacy.
I’ve only seen short clips of the show and those made me glad I didn’t watch the show. The Seanchan are my favorite culture in WOT. I agree the Seanchan wouldn’t create a tsunami in their landing at Falme. I think they would use a super weapon like they if they had to but only if they deemed a situation completely unsalvageable. They didn’t come to destroy. They came to reclaim and equip for Tarmon Gaidon. The Seanchan culture is about establishing order and maintaining control of it. I think they only way the Seanchan would have invaded/reclaimed with a weapon of mass destruction would be if they discovered the majority of the population were openly serving the Dark One.
Are we watching the same show? Rafe & co definitely butchered some stuff, but the Seanchan, bar the "f*** this kid in particular" tsunami, are really faithful to the book. The only changes are some visual shortcuts like the cordless a'dam. A lot of Egwene & Renna's scenes are straight from the book.
my german brain always said: "Sen Chan". But Se-an Chan" comes close. For me Shawnchen" are too many "sh" in one word. ;) And "Sean" is an english name, but are the "Seanchan" english-chinese people which couldn't agree on a name? 😆 "We should be the Sean! From Sean Connery!" "No it's called Chan Connery!" "Ok we take both". 😂
When talking about constant warfare in Seanchen B4 Hawking, I just have a hard time believing women would be AS warlike as men. Women take a lot longer to resort to violence, at least here and now. Sure, political scheming etc, but constant war? I'm not sure I buy that. And I agree with Jess, why didn't they just nuke the armies? Wouldn't they have worked together to protect themselves from Hawking? The enemy of my enemy, and so on
I am or was a casual fan, but I watched the show and did not like it. So I started trying to like it, I tried to talk in the chat to understand why I did not like the show but I did like the books. It came with a lot of pushback from the fans of the youtube channels I did this on. So I when back and read the books again. The only conclusion I came to is the show is not like the books. So the show is not good as a wheel of time show. I do not understand why the RUclipsrs are talking so highly about the show. maybe it is for access or money. I am not trying to be mean or wrong. All the character arcs, motivations, and actions are not the same or close to the books. I think the only way anyone can make a great adaptation is to stay true to the source material. If you do not do that it is something new, not the thing. that is what this bad show is. Not the wheel of time. The RUclipsrs that are "superfans" can't or will not address this is sad. It is not a new turning of the wheel because that is not the books. That would not be an adaptation. That would be inspired by.
I'm trying to like the prime series too. I pushed through the first season, only watching it because I'm a fan of the books. I can't recommend it to anyone. The second season start really threw me off. .I skipped to episode 3 and I'm starting to like it more. Still It's moving too fast, and it feels like they are forcing the story forward. Still can't recommend it to a non fan, but it's good enough now that I think I'll watch the next season.
The very argument brought up about the morality of Seanchan culture could be asked about "Cancel Culture" today. How much control are you willing to put up with for people's feelings to be "safe"?
WOT is similar to the Dune series in that the sagas are so complex and long they just cannot be translated into such short time blocks. Then deviation from source material makes even worse
Starts at 2:48!
i am quite the history buff. you can, in a loose way, replace every reference to Seanchan with 'Ancient Rome' and it still makes sense. highly militaristic, Salve owners, invade a country and let them rule themselves until they rebel and then crush them and a very hierarchical social structure. everyone says Seanchan is solely evil but Ancient Rome was the beacon of light and culture but they share so many traits, the Seanchan just have certain elements of Ancient Rome dialed up to 11. Even Luther's invasion of Seanchan contentment is a parallel of how Rome invaded the British Isles, by using local allies to help defeat other local tribes.
I agree 100%
I think Only the Roman spread of Empire is in this. I think the culture is Imperial China.
I mean we treat Ancient Rome as "good" because we only choose to talk about the positive things that have carried forward from that empire. In reality, Rome destroyed and subjugated countless cultures, and we lost so much history due to roman imperialism. But because the modern "western" world is a child of that imperialism, we tend to ignore the immense damage the Romans did and only focus on the good stuff. All that to say, much like how the Seanchan as nuanced but mostly bad, the real life Roman empire was also REALLY bad, but there is a nuance to it.
Ancient Rome was pure evil as well. It's easily the most aggressively belligerent and arrogant empire in history.
58:40 yeah one thing I had really hoped to see and was disappointed not to get was interaction between the Randland ogier and the Gardeners, and some insight into their relative histories.
@Dusty Wheel I am a geology professor and I take special interest in geographical distributions and geological details in fantasy. If you are ever interested, I'd be happy to provide a scientific perspective on such subjects. Great video!
This could be really interesting, particularly in light of such a fantastical event as the breaking.
Always here for any non-show WOT discussion
I’m coming to this episode late. My take on the Seanchan as a blending of imperial Rome and imperial China or Japan. I always pictured them in Japanese armor and weapons. The motifs of the ships are more what I was expecting for the lands across the Waste.
A very large continent in the West full of warring tribes is conquered by settlers from the east. It becomes a powerful and militaristic nation that's partially built on slavery. Despite being fundamentally classist, it is possible to reach the highest layer of society purely on merit and/or hard work. It has a hawk banner (hawks belong to the same Accipitridae family as eagles), and a pledge of allegiance. They want to spread their idea of civilization to the rest of the world. They are very ethnically diverse and they speak with Texan accents. The strongest inspiration and parallel for the Seanchan has always been USA for me. They're clearly inspired by a lot of other empires as well (Rome, Persia, China, Egypt, Ottoman etc), but America does seems to have the most similarities.
Great stream! Glad you're back!
Loved this episode! Been waiting a while to hear/learn more about the Seanchan. Would love to listen to an episode speculating on the future of the Seanchan after the Last Battle. Also, congrats Matt on your new job with Dragonsteel!
Love this!! And I love that (at least visually) many of your hopes for the Seanchan in the show have come to fruition!!
I need to go back and watch this to see what I hoped! Glad it was good!
The discussion on why Luthair was sent to conquer Seanchan and whether they knew it was there or not gave me an idea for a theory:
Artur Hawkwing wanted to conquer Shara. To do this he sent two armadas, each led my one of his children. The daughter sailed east while the son sailed west because they know that the Earth is round. The daughter’s armada was defeated and disappeared because the plan failed. Instead of forcing Shara to defend two fronts, the armada sent west across the Aryth Ocean came across Seanchan instead. Much like Columbus in the First Age.
Interesting idea.
Late to this but had a few thoughts while watching that I wanted to add.
Firstly, the Ogier on Seanchan. I think a few other things can be added into why they were so different from Westlands Ogier. Ogier live longer lives, and they tell the tales and pass on their knowledge to their young. Loial knew descriptions of people long since dead because those tales had been passed down to him. Now switch that context to a world torn apart by the Breaking and instead of a central Tower attempting to regroup everyone, you only have turmoil and small pockets of Aes Sedai trying to gain their own power base. To the longer lived Ogier, they would appear to have all been corrupted by the War with the Shadow. The males to madness, the females to power. Combine that with hundreds of years this rinses and repeats till Luthair's forces appeared and it honestly makes sense the Ogier probably had to join in the fighting to survive. Additionally power hungry Aes Sedai may not have respected the Groves and Steddings and wanted a place that could make them "normal" be destroyed. And then there's the Ways. Since they only started to grow dark 500 years or so ago, if they connected to Seanchan than we would have heard of it. The Ogier of the westlands could interact, keep their histories going and simply be of help to each other. The one's in Seanchan would have been miles apart, and would have had to survive alone in a continent being over run by war constantly. It's the difference between having an entire village to help you or just your neighbours. In most post apocalyptic stories the small groups become war like, vicious and doing anything to survive while a whole village or city bands together and retains some sense of humanity to them. There may have been plenty of Ogier in Seanchan, but they would have all been isolated and cut off.
Since I forgot everything else I wanted to mention as I spent too much time on the Ogier, oops.
Aes Sedai enforced order in a different way than the Seanchan.
Seanchan were far more totalitarian, based upon Blood. You might say the masculine approach, using military and Law.
Sedai ran on more feminine energy, chaotic, egotistic, personal as to what the individual Sedai thought best. Tar Valon became more of a personality cult.
Missed this live but it was still a great episode! Love the lore content 😊
The fan fiction I want to read is Egwene survives the last battle and then utterly destroys the Seanchan.
A league is THREE miles
Robert Jordan wrote a number of Conan stories whose influence you can see in the WoT. Consider the Aes Sedai in the Seanchan continent to rule in a similar fashion to the sorcerers and masters of the arcane in the Hyboriean age. They jealously guarded their own secrets, only training an apprentice far enough to suit their own ends and at all times seeking an advantage through scheming or assassination to attain power over her rivals.
I'm only about 20 minutes in but I have heard a lot of people say the Seanchan is based on the American Empire. I simply do not get that at all other than the slavery aspect. How is this not based on China? Even the name and prounciation. Specifically the Empress Wu Zetian. ALSO, the Confucian plus Buddhism philosophy mix that DID lead to the fact that travel in Buddhist countries used to be the safest in the world no matter how tyrannical their government. China was huge and all most people had to do was take an oath to the Empress and go about their lives.
Yes, of course there were people who knew along why a Suldam could control channelers. But they just smiled and nodded and agreed they were just Channeler Whisperers. Anyone who actually spoke up was killed. Probably the Ad'am maker Guild ended up having to take a vow of silence.
It seems strange to me the Seanchan had so few items of power inspite of having the knowledge and ability to make the ad’am, a ter’angreal. Since they know how to make ter’angreal they know how to make angreal.
I love the proposed Shaido plot, but I would've thought the Seanchan would've gained the Shaido's allegiance by making Sevanna part of the Blood like they did with other Westland nobles, and giving her sul'dam to take control over the channeling Wise Ones, such as Therava not by making them da'covale which I don't think they would've accept under any circumstance
Hawking surely visited the snakes and foxes. He probably gained knowledge and weapons against the seanchan then
Later in the books, the Seanchan seem bad but not like the shadow - , but don't forget how the Seanchan behaved when they first arrived at Falme- burning whole groups of people, and other horrible mass killings all over the place. They are a great antagonist with lots of complexity. Where Jordan sometimes makes 1-dimensional villains his cultural depth more than makes up for that. It's still close shave for me whether I dislike the Seachan or shadow more. or maybe even the windfinders ;)
People rarely examine systematic oppression that benefits them. Thus Seanchan slavery was unexamined.
Thinking back to Luthair arrival in Seanchan. Isn't their army the Ever Victorious Army? They didn't lose a battle in the consolidation right? Would like to see any notes on this in a future seanchan episode! Great show as always!
Did Robert Jordan know a lot about islamicate history for ideas like Sojihnn, Seekers of the Truth and Deathwatch guard (mamluks, kul, ghulam parallels)
I hate the Seanchan so bad. I hate Matt's relationship with Tuon. I hate that Rand is forced to work with them.
The Seanchan are my favorite culture in the WOT. Their culture is about establishing order and maintaining control over it in the pursuit to prepare for Tarmon Gaidon.
@@phillipmargrave ...with slavery
Yes. It's not like the Dark One and Padan Fain and the Forsaken and the Draghkar and Darkhounds and Trollocs and Myrddraal and Dark Friends and Black Ajah aren't enough enemies of the light. Although I think the Matt/Tuon relationship is kind of funny. Sad that Tuon didn't got better, but stayed the same with her views about people that can channel.
The ending of Season 2 was tight. I love the way they made the Damane look.
I really, really, really dislike what Rafe has done. What he ash done with this mockery of an adaption to the WoT is completely shameful. Non readers are missing so much of the world building, intricate plots, character development, etc. The Seanchan would never create a sunami, like that. The adam is not supposed to look like that. What an insult to RJ's legacy.
Okay calm down weirdo
I’ve only seen short clips of the show and those made me glad I didn’t watch the show. The Seanchan are my favorite culture in WOT. I agree the Seanchan wouldn’t create a tsunami in their landing at Falme. I think they would use a super weapon like they if they had to but only if they deemed a situation completely unsalvageable. They didn’t come to destroy. They came to reclaim and equip for Tarmon Gaidon. The Seanchan culture is about establishing order and maintaining control of it.
I think they only way the Seanchan would have invaded/reclaimed with a weapon of mass destruction would be if they discovered the majority of the population were openly serving the Dark One.
Are we watching the same show? Rafe & co definitely butchered some stuff, but the Seanchan, bar the "f*** this kid in particular" tsunami, are really faithful to the book. The only changes are some visual shortcuts like the cordless a'dam. A lot of Egwene & Renna's scenes are straight from the book.
With all the various accents in. WOT the precise pronunciation of Seanchan irrelevant.
👀 seanchan knowledge of shara
Seanchan brain: *Must Conquer*
i love her dog lol
I my Swedish brain i always read it as "Se-an Chan" Still feel it's the "right" way to say it 🤣
my german brain always said: "Sen Chan". But Se-an Chan" comes close. For me Shawnchen" are too many "sh" in one word. ;) And "Sean" is an english name, but are the "Seanchan" english-chinese people which couldn't agree on a name? 😆 "We should be the Sean! From Sean Connery!" "No it's called Chan Connery!" "Ok we take both". 😂
@@GreatOne0815 😂
When talking about constant warfare in Seanchen B4 Hawking, I just have a hard time believing women would be AS warlike as men. Women take a lot longer to resort to violence, at least here and now. Sure, political scheming etc, but constant war? I'm not sure I buy that. And I agree with Jess, why didn't they just nuke the armies? Wouldn't they have worked together to protect themselves from Hawking? The enemy of my enemy, and so on
Women can be just as ambitious as men.
Season 1 was so bad, the series needs a hard reboot.
its like what Alexander the Great did when he conquered a nation
Ball gags. Hours and hours of ball gags. So sayeth the Rafe.
I am or was a casual fan, but I watched the show and did not like it. So I started trying to like it, I tried to talk in the chat to understand why I did not like the show but I did like the books. It came with a lot of pushback from the fans of the youtube channels I did this on. So I when back and read the books again. The only conclusion I came to is the show is not like the books. So the show is not good as a wheel of time show. I do not understand why the RUclipsrs are talking so highly about the show. maybe it is for access or money. I am not trying to be mean or wrong. All the character arcs, motivations, and actions are not the same or close to the books. I think the only way anyone can make a great adaptation is to stay true to the source material. If you do not do that it is something new, not the thing. that is what this bad show is. Not the wheel of time. The RUclipsrs that are "superfans" can't or will not address this is sad. It is not a new turning of the wheel because that is not the books. That would not be an adaptation. That would be inspired by.
I'm trying to like the prime series too. I pushed through the first season, only watching it because I'm a fan of the books. I can't recommend it to anyone. The second season start really threw me off. .I skipped to episode 3 and I'm starting to like it more. Still It's moving too fast, and it feels like they are forcing the story forward. Still can't recommend it to a non fan, but it's good enough now that I think I'll watch the next season.
@@monkut why?
The very argument brought up about the morality of Seanchan culture could be asked about "Cancel Culture" today. How much control are you willing to put up with for people's feelings to be "safe"?
I love how the Seanchan create a massive tsunami to crush a girl at the beach lmao god the show was awful
WOT is similar to the Dune series in that the sagas are so complex and long they just cannot be translated into such short time blocks.
Then deviation from source material makes even worse