Symbolism of House Tully - A Song of Ice and Fire - Game of Thrones
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- Опубликовано: 17 окт 2024
- Blackfish, Stoneheart, Hoster, Riverrun, and more! Edmure too! We’ll read the best Tully scenes and cover all their fishy symbolism. I’ve got a couple of Tully-related theories to roll in too!
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title image uses "Lord Hoster Tully last voyage" by SvetoslavPetrov
I'm able to believe George was fully aware and intentional concerning the sheer density of symbolism he employees because of how he genuinely loves literature. If anyone is a big geek for the craft and heritage of storytelling and everything remotely related to it, George is that person. If you ever found yourself shocked at the revelation of how all the seemingly random details and tangential chapters in a book like Moby Dick, for example, are actually filled with meaning and purpose, I promise you George already knows all about it. He approaches what he does with reverence and is sincerely making an honest effort to contribute to the canon of literature in a way that is worthy enough to stand the test of time.
Well said!
@@Nicola_Blackwood I would fix the typo but I don't want to lose my heart. Whenever you edit a comment that's been hearted it disappears
@@Jonjzi I didn’t even notice the typo until now, don’t worry about it friend!
One more thing I noticed. I believe the imagery of the final arrow loosed by the Black Fish disappearing into the mist and the illumination of the fire shining through a few moments later represents the coming of the dawn. It is possibly a hint at what the ending might be like. I see it as meaning that there will be several failed attempts to end the long night. All hope will appear to be lost when at the eleventh hour one last hail Mary will bring the dawn. I think the fog might also represent the heart of winter, or the Others themselves, and the flame catching could hint at the heart of winter burning. Maybe the three failed arrows might even be the dragons dying or a failed forging of light bringer.
hey I like all that great comments 🤌
One last metaphorical 'shot in the dark', so to speak?
The show did the Blackfish so dirty. When they reintroduced him in season 6 during the seige I was so hyped and then they killed him off screen.
My favourite mythical astronomy streams are the ones that go deep into the references. Keep up the awesome work.
Do you ever think about how none of us would be here if it weren't for the silt deposits in the fertile crescent. Pretty trippy.
The Annunaki created us, come on, haven't you watched ancient aliens😂😅😂
Not entirely true, "civilization" is recognized to have arisen independently in 6 seperate locations. All of them are fertile river basins and valleys tho so you are right we really be here because of silt deposits
Fish in general are just symbols of things that inhabit our unconscious. This metaphor is so brilliant and deep. Great stream.
And the unconscious corresponds with magical realms in mythology
Night, darkness, basements, shadows, mist and tunnels as well!
@@jonhauge-evaldsson783 oh absolutely. That's what makes all this so amazing, once you see how the symbolism works, the story unlocks itself in a much much deeper way. I've been a fan of this channel for years and it's still incredibly engaging.
@@jonhauge-evaldsson783 labyrinths and labyrinthine buildings
Trout often represent unpleasant, ugly old women. It's pretty funny in reference to Catelyn
"Watch for me, little cat."
Hoster wants Catelyn to look for him. He is the watcher on the walls and now his watch has ended. So it could also mean that Catelyn now has to watch.
In the same moment as the boat goes up in flames Cat hear her fathers voice whisper the words again. She does not think it, but I bet no one else can hear it. The whisper is the language of the Greenseers and the ghosts. Varamyr rides the wind after death. I think it is actually Hoster Tully passing by...
Great stream LML!!! I posted this in the chat but it got lost so I figured I would repost it here. What if the Misty Island was Moat Caitlin and the neck was a shallow oceanic strait before the collapse of the Landbridge into westeros. The water draining from the area caused the marshy swamplands we have now. It would explain how House Fisher is in both the North & the Riverlands as well as explaining why there is no sign of it. I also found it so weird we have a Catelyn Stark and a Moat Caitlin so close together without any apparent connection.
Also I wanted to say I really dig the idea of the Tullys being descended from the Fishers & Mudds due to their symbolism. Since George likes to reuse motifs it reminds me to House Justman which was descended from Houses Blackwood & Bracken and were kings of the Riverlands after both those families had been before them. Also of note is that the Blackwoods were also at one point Kings in the North similarly to House Fisher.
oh you know Most Cailin crossed my mind too last night but I forgot to mention it. I'll have to think about it more but yeah that might potentially work
That actually kind of makes sense. I think most of us assume that the Neck was flooded when the Arm of Dorne broke (I did), but I suppose it could actually be just as likely that water could've drained from it to accommodate the missing land in the south, depending on the elevation and everything, right? I'd have to do some research and think about it more, but it definitely seems plausible, especially tying in the Deep Ones with Moat Caitlin, because they would've had better access to the area in the past if it were actually located in a body of water.
Hi Dave, quickie for future reference: the island off North Wales where the druids had their last stand was Anglesey, pronounced "Ann-gel-see". Whoever posted it in the chat made a typo: it's "angle" as in right-angle, not "angel" as in winged messenger from heaven.
Fabulous stream! A deep dive into the symbolism of the Tully’s. Please remember to leave a like and a comment to support our favorite ASOIAF content creator
Lovely stream! Nobody does ASOIAF symbolism like David Lightbringer!
Not only do I enjoy the channel for what it is but I must thank you, for always helping when I have a monstrous anxiety attack. You make me feel less strange and the gravel in your voice reminds me of sandals hitting the ground on a long walk.
Your content has enabled me to DOMINATE related discussions, and accurately. Your streams are second to none for studying the world.
and that's what's important, after all! haha
@@DavidLightbringer it’s not!!!! But it’s so fun to get to explain how all of this is so inter-connected. It blows their minds every time😆
I loved this stream, good old fashioned symbolism. It’s the brand over here after all. ♥️
2:45:00 a Lannister pays his debts. jaime likes to let people think that he would do a despicable act, but likes to surprise them by being just, just because nobody would expect it, it amused him. this scene mirrors Catelyn freeing jaime, she says something like "brienne give me your sword", and we think that catelyn has killed jaime, even jaime probably thought that she was going to kill him.
You mentioned the King in Yellow without any prodding from me 😂 I am so proud
hahahahaha i luv u tim
🫶🫠
I leaned a lot on your stream. Thank you for all the work you put into it 💜💜💜
Black fish is a kind of Killer Whale among other things, like dolphins and different salt- and sweetwater fishes.
Brynden Blackfish slipping away in the river is skinchanger symbolism. Yet anther clue of skinchanging aquatic animals is a thing in Asoiaf.
It is also merman, merling, squsher symbolism.
Blackfish also has Loke symbolism. When the Aseir nordic gods hunt for Loki after the murder of Balder, he turns into a samon to escape.
And Bloodraven symbolism, Brynden Rivers.
oh that's interesting about Loki
As a blackfish he'll eat all the krakens 😁
Loki is such an interesting character to use as a lense to examine the asoiaf symbolism, theyve got a ton of azur-ahai stuff going on, and alot of parallels to jon snow, theres even some mance stuff, and loki is super mysterious in a real world the norse never wrote anything about there religion down way.
Thats not even getting into how loki is kind of a blend of ice and fire, depending on how you look at them, the child of a Jotun that has a name similar to logi (word for fire) and was thought of as a hearth god by some post norse peoples for a while.
The inn at the crossroads is one of the most important locations. Look at the hints. Used to sit over a river. This means a parallel river may have formed an island. Major characters always encounter a plot changing turning point here. Wheel/river of time, repeating itself. I think this is where the lost castle of the Fisher King existed. Was likely burned and tumbled into the river, eventually blocking the river.
that's a good theory
A well-explained theory. A keen eye 👁️ you have.
I enjoyed the streamed then clipped-out, and re-edited style. On-point editing as well! ☻
I almost feel like the fact that they might not have a concept of asexuality would make Brynden's decision not to marry all the more difficult for Hoster to accept. Like, maybe he could understand his brother being gay, because many people are -- but for that to not be the case, and Brynden just... refuses anyways might seem even more disrespectful or baffling to Hoster.
Silverfish are living fossils! They’re the only not extinct wingless insects I’m aware of, which sounds weird but even insect like ants which don’t typically have wings are descended from wing bearing ancestors and actually specifically with ants the ones that don’t have wings are missing half of their genetic material, neat! Anyway, I think silverfish are like ~300 million years old
I read Finnegan’s wake years and was like what did I just read? This is before you could google everything. Thanks for the insight! I haven’t thought of that weird book in years. Love the content LML, just imagine the PayPal’s when winds come out😮😮😮
I won't sleep for like two weeks when two comes out haha
"My home is at my back" is more turtle symbolism.
A great stream! I think the finnegans wake stuff really added to the whole discussion perfectly! Nicely done
Love your streams bro I always catch the replay
Glad I was unable to be part of this live. Thank you sir
3:19:16 Yes, the Odin symbolism is there but what I was actually getting at is: Bran consuming JoJen (who was a seer) Paste in order to wed the Weirwood is paralleled to Fionn mac Cumhaill gaining knowledge/wisdom consuming the Salmon, who is in actuality, the shape-shifted seer Fintan mac Bóchra.
Early on in his life, Fintan mac Bóchra also had a hunting hound... named Bran, though that's just a coincidence.... right? Ha. 🍜✨️🐟😵💫
Fantastic stream! A bit of an interesting note relative to the trout symbolism at 34:05 - there is such a thing as a “salt water trout”.
“Salt water trout” are more commonly known by their fishery name of “Arctic Char”. This species is present in the UK and Ireland, although stock has been impacted, and can live in cold glacial lakes, the river - or, and this is fun - they are anadromous… which means they live in the open ocean but return to their “birth river” to spawn.
Another fun fact: this is the most northerly species of trout!
Hoster as the turtle man of thr river has crabs attacking in his belly? Another Rhoyne reference for sure.
oh I missed it where were you when we did this live haha
@@DavidLightbringer Sleeping lol. You're podcast are my main source of entertainment on my overnight shift. Thanks for that.
Just found your channel. Definitely love listening to you so far!
Fish on a leash could be a Piscies thing, with the missing other fish being well the others or the broken part of the duality.
I loved this. I’m definitely going to read Finnigans Wake now. This is the stuff I’m here for :p
Beautiful stream. Thank you David.
Great stream, going deep with the Finnegan’s wake discussion, I am pretty convinced that the Tullys descend from a squisher-friendly house, closer to the shore.
...and Mond means moon in German ( I mentioned Mund = mouth yesterday already). Kinda important symbols in ASOIF, don't ya think? 😉
Btw, splendid stream again, as always ❤❤❤ thx 4 making boring house chores interesting! ❤❤❤
Is there any symbolic relation between Benjen Stark and Brynden Tully? Both younger sons of great lords who dress all in black and move away from their childhood home in search of creating their own legacy?
they're more like the same archetype, that of the black night. The NW are all doing it kinda. The virtuous but outcast knight is the opposite of the puffed up kingsguard white knight with shit for honor
@@DavidLightbringer thanks for clearing that up, makes sense
Loved this and all your other videos. Regarding the Quiet Isle and its location, where the Trident meats the sea, this is the classic betwixt and between, or in Claude Lévi-Strauss terms, liminal place. Objects in these places can appear in disappear in legend and mythology. Don’t know how consistent this observation would be with the world of G.
the reason i think brynden is asexual is that, usually there are some other hints also that someone is gay in ASOIAF. there's generally something about them being "fond of their squire" or something like that. with rhaena it was pretty obvious, she married androw farman but she was "really close" to elissa farman. renly and loras were in love, people knew that. jon connington was in love with rhaegar, his "silver prince", there's usually some clue we get like that. there is literally nothing like that for brynden. brynden is older, maybe he had a flame when he was younger, and something tragic happened and he swore off love, it could happen, happened with loras. but there is no hint of that either, he isn't reminiscing about anyone even when he talks about how war is bad, he doesn't confide in catelyn about someone, basically there's nobody else. this is what makes me think that he is asexual and not gay. maybe Cat being close to Brynden understood. there was really no word for "gay" or "asexual" back then.
I like i know when yo praise Garth coz i do it when you do! Its good to take breaks lol, thanks DL!
disco stu loves the weirwood compendium 🕺🏼 🌳 🕰️ 🐟
hi david, love your streams. When will you start talking about House of the dragon season 2?
Nice stream! Just finished now BC I had to sleep then work (N) what do you think of the idea that the Tullys and the iron born share a common ancestor in the same way that most of the houses in the reach claim descent from Garth? And then what about an elemental ancestry for ice and fire also... IE R'hllor and the great other?
Brynden Blackfish Tully is a Knight of the Bloody Gate. It reminds me of the Black Gate of Mordor, and Brynden plays "The Voice of Sauron" (Lysa Arryn in this case). Lysa is a Night's Queen and The Black Gate in Asoiaf, is a gate in The Wall.
Blackfish reminds me of Coldhands. He is a cold wight who have somehow shanged side. Blackfish does too, he leaves the cold Lysa, to protect the green riverlands.
Brynden has very much "taken the black". Like Benjen. And Jon. Their brothers are lords but they have no place in the castle. They decide to hold no lands and father no children. Instead defend the realms of men. The Blackfish take this oath seriously.
When Lysa betrays her family, he emidiatly resigns to go back home and fight for the living.
Lysa is to blame for a lot of blood She kills Jon Arryn, send the letter to Catelyn that starts the war more or less between Stark and Lannister. She could have used Tyrion to bargin for peace, but she didn't. Knowing full well that the Tullys and the Riverlands is right in the middle and would suffer the most during a war. It is ofcause Littefinger who are playing her, but still. She has all right to hate her father for the forced abortion, preventing her to marry Petyr Bailish and insted been sold to an old man for political gain. But still.
When the war breake out, Lysa refuses to send a single sword. But one black sword remember his house words.
The Blackfsh is very much the archetype of the "Black Knight". It is all over popular culture from Arthurian legends and Ivanhoe to Marvel Comics and Moty Python.
All the Night's Watch is really.
They are in sharp contrast to the White Knights of the Kingsguard.
great comments here Jon, thank you
@@DavidLightbringer Well, thank you for hours and hours of educational entertainment! I'm sorry I'm so poor and have not been able to contribute more financially! 😔
Didn’t catch it live, but another excellent stream!👍
What do you think the Blackfish is up, too? I hope he isn't attacked by an army of wolves lol or maybe they took him in? But perhaps the most sense is the Brotherhood without Banners. They are doing a lot to help his cause and if he heard rumours of Lady Stoneheart, why not?. It would be his best course, no? He certaintly isn't hiding he is out for revenge and I have no idea what Martin has planned. But he is right in that area almost hard to not run into them, as Arya and the Hound had.
He's sinking boats of the strait of Gibraltar
(Apologies if you touched on this and I mist it) Avalon was a misty isle, in area where a low mist hid the hill in a lake. Its also considered a gateway between the world of the living an dead, resting place of Arthur etc.
Maybe add the Jamie in the white sword tower as a companion to the chapter with Cat and Jamie at Riverrun. He is for sure the Night King in that chapter inside the frozen heart of winter. Imo.
that's a great one
So, this is a bit unrelated, but I'm noticing a theme amongst siblings: an intrepid, ambitious older brother, a 2nd brother in his shadow who either stays there or is promoted beyond his station somehow, a 3rd brother deeper in his shadow, and a 4th chill or fun-loving brother who disappears (and sometimes comes back changed). That could be (Tywin, Kevan, Tygett, and Gerion) or (Balon, Euron, Victarion, and Aeron), or even (Brandon, Ned, Lyanna [written off 'cause of her gender], Benjen). It even applies to (Robb, Jon*, Arya, Bran).
*Jon is technically the Starks' cousin and Bran the 2nd Stark brother, but he's raised and known as the 2nd, and is at this point in writing the heir to Winterfell and some kind of Jesus. When we meet Bran, he's a 7-year-old who likes to spend his time climbing and exploring till he "disappears" (visits the psychic highway) and comes back changed, as in disabled and with awakened greenseer abilities. Rickon is a nominal 3rd son, but if Shaggydogg is any clue, he probably doesn't play as major of a role as his siblings.
Yew is a wood commonly used for bows. It has a fairly good structure to make a strong bow. It is flexible and also hard. Because of the wood used for bows the common word for bows is the word for their material.
There is somthing interesting with the combination of fire and water in Hoster's funeral.
We see it in Ironborn religion as well.
"A sign it is," the priest agreed, "but from our god, not theirs. A burning brand it is, such as our people carried of old. It is the flame the Drowned God brought from the sea, and it proclaims a rising tide. It is time to hoist our sails and go forth into the world with fire and sword, as he did."
The Gray King set the possessed the fire from the Storm God in the form of a burning tree and then again fom Nagas living fire.
I know right? so much fire. so actually I'm glad you highlighted this because it's been on my mind. the only kind of fire that could actually be brought out of the sea here would be the seastone chair-as-meteorite. the drowned gods did bring the chair out of the sea, if we are talking deep ones. I am pretty sure deep ones and seastone chair rituals were taking place on the Iron Islands and in Westeros in general before the GEOTD / Grey King arrives, so I think that there is some conflation of myth here. The drowned God and the grey king aren't the same, but in some legends they sound the same. I think there was like a first deep one hybrid who was remembered as the drowned God, who drowned for us and who brought fire from the sea. Grey King is the ancient mariner type who brought seafaring skill, which is not the same as Deep Ones worship
the mermaid he married would have been a First Man Ironborn hybrid woman, I am thinking
A beutiful! It makes sense! Fire can mean magic in generel as well, right? Fire of the gods?
@DavidLightbringer But what the fuck are the Tullys doing then? It is like a reverse? They burn and then sink. It is like bringing fire down undwr the water again... 🤔
Bringing a flame up from the sea is strange.
Peak Finnegan's Wake breakdown, peak river-folk diaspora mapping, featuring cameos of peak queer Capricorn representation... I'd say this stream went swimmingly!
Lightbringer can't melt steel beams
Great stream!
So the Weirwood like Inn has a fairy landing. How convenient for all those Sidhe.
Asexual individuals still tend to be in relationships, and they can be straight or gay relationships. The difference is the actual lack of sexual relations. When categorized as ‘gay’, it means a little more than just ‘sexual’ preference. It’s a desire to connect on all levels, including sexually, with someone of the same gender.
And this world has very much proven that a woman can get pregnant by someone else, so Blackfish, if asexual, would have had a much easier time, in this planetos, than if he was gay. So, I agree, it seems more likely that he is gay.
@davidlightbringer great stream. Wanted to let you know that my notification bell is active yet I am not getting notified. I have no idea why.
Your clap trap had me at hello...
I am asexual so I would love some ace rep, but I don’t think Blackfish is ace because medieval society is all about arranged marriages that you don’t actually have any feelings for. I think if he was ace he would have married some girl who liked girls or already had children or otherwise would shut up his brother without actually needing to be involved with his wife at all.
i've been listening to the ASOIAF series audiobooks for about the tenth time and i noticed GRRM repeats "others" more than any other word. Not just 'thee others' but every 'other' in every context you can think of. I like foreshadowing and symbolism but not sure if he's over used this one.
Would LOVE a Sansa stream or streams. Great work as always!
there's four or five including the Alayne chapters
Looking forward to the stream!
45:00 this is giving the whole ireland/saint patrick/ casting out the snakes (druids) thing
1:11:28 well damn, right on the money huh
I think house Vance is a nod to Jack Vance, another old school sci-fi/fantasy writer. The dragon is a Pelgrane (also the name of his publisher), a kind of pterodactyl creature, and the eyes are probably a nod to the story of Liane the Wayfarer. Sounds like the same thing with Robert Jordan, house Jordayne, and the Tor.
Like and offer to the algorythm, as always
Im so deep in your symbolism that I don’t even trust another person’s interpretation until I see you agree 😭😭
Thanks
Thank you ❤
This is super late, but in Anglo-Saxon dithematic naming, "mund" was used to mean "protection," so Osmund would be "God-protection." First Men seem to point to the Anglo-Saxons much of the time and I would look to those meanings first of all.
Well done
Love this channel, love Tim’s channel and what i am about to say is very much a ME problem, but i have a hard time when you and Tim do a stream and he checks out. I am the person that will lock eyes with the person being talked over, but that doesn’t work in a podcast setting.
To he absolutely clear, I think Tim has some amazing ideas and theories, but i get lost because the stream with both is all over the place. I feel like you are interactive and he tries to follow script and also gets lost in the chat. Hope those minor issues flush out. Much love to you both.,
Elements help.
Again, appreciate you and please move to michigan.
3 bedroom townhouse with off street parking, only rental on a street with single family homes, quiet street., amazing place to live, 10 min walk to the ‘city’…great underground music scene, when MJK is here he calls it ‘home’.
Plus, have you met our governor, AG and lieutenant governor?
In any event, appreciate the content. Spiral out 🌀
Idk if this is anything as im very new to the deeper symbolism but the term black fish is the indigenous name for orcas. Orcas are very family oriented and have deep deep family traditions and are lead by the matriarch. If not then its just a cool fact
a bit off topic, but please check out Isle Royale, the real life Isle of Faces. On Lake Superior, wolves still roam and guard the ten thousand year old copper workings of the first people who once called it sacred.
could 'the god's eye' legend be referring to the hive mind that was exiled from the wyrwood trees by the green men?
Love from begin to end 🎉
Hype for this!! 🐟
The Blackwoods were kings in the Wolfswood early on, so its not likely that they were the first kings in the Riverlands.
good point. I should try to figure that one out
Druids. Angllesey. The island where the druids were massacred.
Blackfish is gay but more importantly he's married to the job.
just like the watch
that intro is too funny,
I think you'd make a great pre Darth Bane grey Sith, heh heh
Jamie's gold hand slaps are one of my favorite things in AFFC. Although I prefer the slap he dealt Red Ronnet Connington at Harrenhall. I laugh every time I read that chapter.
"... she was a sow in silk. The bear had less hair on him than that freak I'll wager-" SLAP 💥🫲
"You are speaking of a high born lady. Call her by her name. Call her Brianne." 😂
yeah it's so well set up
@@DavidLightbringer Yeah! It even kinda pays off as stuff that was set up a book or two earlier.
👏👏👏
1:54:00 It would be cool if you elaborated on this in Mythic Concepts when you get time:)
unrelated, but it anyone wants to move to Michigan where cannabis and abortions are legal and our Governor is amazing, Lieutenant Gov is amazing, our AG is also amazing, there are currently 2 duplex/townhouses that will be for rent soon. 2 bedroom, full basement, HUGE backyard, the only rental on the street so it’s a very nice area to live. Walking distance to the ‘city’. Grand Rapids is an artists city (i mean hello, Maynard James Keenan went to art school here ) many job opportunities, progressive etc.
The 3 story, 2 bedroom, full basement (with legal bedroom) and washer dryer hook ups and covered parking would be $1200.
also, great stream! If you ever want to talk slavic parallels, lmk! I’ve a Babu that taught me things many on the topic!
Where is the vid where someone explains who tf is Tansy?
we're through the looking glass, here
Spotify Please! 🙏🙌👏🙇♂️
I dunno about that “Finnegan’s Wake” take most complicated work in the English language… seriously… you think that book is written in English?
🤣🤣🤣
Anybody else hear grey king in a brogue. Ee's the grea' king, ye 'ear meh. Da. Grey-uh. Keang.
Complete curveball - Tarth is Welsh for haze or mist, and is near Mistwood. I'm not sure it anyway fits with the wider context of the "Misty Isle" mistery anymore than the Misty Islands do, but a thing.
Sea Sentinel
Steel wood
Anglesey not the Isle of Man
While I agree that GRRM is intentionally and deeply using symbolism, the claim that each connection or symbol is intentionally constructed is unfalsifiable and highly improbable. Language and symbol are derived from natural experiences and these are subject to pareidolia.
Similarly, the possible etymological connections between names (which are themselves highly symbolic) can be fallacious, especially when there is no methodology applied other than loose linguistic and proximal association.
In short, these relationships are interesting and many are compelling but a similar level of complexity could be discovered in almost any long and detailed texts.
you're so absolutely wrong about all of that my friend. we are miles and miles beyond a level of correlation that could be accidental. Sorry you can't glimpse the msterwork here, I've really tried hard to contextualize it for people so it doesn't seem so strange. it's actually just taking standard high level writing techniques such as Joyce used - metaphor and parallelism through repeating archetypal figures - and pushing them further. It's not really that cryptic. Just a genius taking standard literary techniques and pushing them further.
the fact you could leave this comment after I pointed out all the Finnegan's Wake stuff is baffling
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Ironborn 2 when
2:19:24
Mund means mouth in German...