I like the idea that the darkness is being 100% truthful (so far) with its messages, because it sounds exactly like how the darkness already just views anything that doesn't conform to the final shape. It doesn't have to and probably isn't lying because it's the genuine view of the darkness. However, that doesn't make it the objective truth, or at least the darkness is trying to convince us that this should be the truth.
It's entirely correct to assume the darkness as being a sociopath with extreme OCD and a fair bit of autism. It doesnt understand nor appreciate the idea of varying patterns and shapes, much less the changing of rules, its uncomfortable with the idea of change and when it is finally forced into the role of the literal, rather than metaphorical, ontological winnower the darkness finds no cruelty in carrying out its singular purpose.
It's leaving out the feelings of the gardener. I think the gardener is mad that nothing is given a chance with it's own power, it's all luck. The gardener making sentient species is a unique opportunity to separately from the very basic game. The end of the universe is inevitable, but the darkness is dead set on maintaining the pattern regardless. The light feels it doesn't need to be that simple. The light can save from unnecessary death. The darkness sees death as a way expressing meaning through existing. The darkness can't understand that I think and so it only tells truths from its perspective.
To me, the gardener is a belligerent child while the winnower seems to be a resigned aged. Only a whiney, psychotic little twat would "flip the table" because they kept "losing" to their own rules. They fight, and kick, and scream from room to room until the adult leaves. Then they just sit there, picking at a scab, and ignoring all else until they see something wearing their shirt; then they throw a fit, and set them on fire, before going back to that scab.
I’m on the darkness’ side tbh. A lot has happened with the light that shouldn’t have. If the Veil (that’s what i call what made the copy of ourselves in the cutscene) are our salvation, im all about it.
The Light becoming part of the game could be the introduction of the Traveler. The Traveler being the light’s representative/ or the light itself. Giving species chances to do extraordinary things with the gift bestowed upon them by the Traveler/Light. Hence new things and possibilities. The Darkness/the Pyramids are there to put everything back to way it was.
Yup. The traveler’s patronage has inspired many intelligent species into a golden age of _endless possibilities._ The traveler is of the light, but nobody has mentioned how it’s like a two-faced. No matter how sophisticated, every civilization has been purged. Deceived into a golden age, than set up against this cosmic game-war. Now it’s tired of fleeing with no avail. A new rule. Edit: The most recent entry of Unveiling, reminded me of the Distributary. A pocket universe, homeland of the awoken. Unperturbed, the awoken developed a civilization of exponential growth, and abundance. Only Mara Sov’s faction left to aid their ancestors. Humanity. The awoken’s distributary maybe this special new rule.
THE COSMOLOGY true statement. I don’t think that it is necessarily two-faced. but the Light and Dark are just entities. Our feelings and understanding doesn’t really apply because they do think as we do. They have their directive. Light: to flourish; Dark: to purge. The strong survive. But with that the status quo was, life then death, with not much “flourishing” occurring. So in comes the Traveler to give us more possibilities as you said. But then comes the Darkness set things right. But the dark isn’t evil. Its just doing what it’s meant to do. We just want to survive so we fight back.
Devon Balbosa- Maybe two-faced is the wrong term, but there’s some kind of deception behind the traveler’s patronage. These civilizations are oblivious to the gardener’s nemesis. Than it arrives to mercilessly destroy them. And the winnower(darkness) is not evil to you? The winnower’s cosmic philosophy lacks a conscience. Destroying innocent worlds, because it loathes their complexity. That’s malevolence. The traveler. The gardener’s cosmic philosophy has a conscience. It seeks to uplift the potential of intelligent species, to an undreamt level. That’s benevolence. This cosmic game-war seems like the gray area between the paracasual forces. As both are striving for a final shape. One is utter complexity. One is utter simplicity.
When the Winnower "discovered the first knife", I thought that was the origin of the Sword Logic. It sounded like he was referencing that philosophical concept earlier.
I dont think it sees a literal knife. It is the concept. At that point the winnower decides fight the gardener and becomes the first weapon.(as a metaphor.) Kinda cain and abel ish, like in the first murder
Remember: the natural order of things that the Darkness admires would probably be something like the Vex, a final shape eclipsing everything else, an all-consuming pattern with no room for anything that can't be made to fit. To use an allegory: Tobacco is natural too, but we've long decided that it's not good for you. And to use a meme: just because the Darkness might be correct doesn't mean it's right.
It has strong likings of fanatical ideas in which people are either forced to fit in or forced out. The darkness might be wrong but it believes to be right; this could end up becoming quite an interesting villain.
The last book exemplifies the story of destiny almost perfectly. Also prove one point the darkness made. How the gardener is the instigator of conflict. Because in the concept of the flowers, darkness prevails every time. Snuffs the other flowers out becoming the one true dominant flower. Until the gardener enacts a new rule to help the other flowers flourish more as a means to allow complexity and new possibilities to bare. Possibly just stalling for the inevitable as said by the darkness; for the one flower above all others to eventually approach and take claim. But the rule not only helps life flourish. It’s the essence of the background of destiny. The fight against fate, against DESTINY! For if the true shape of the garden was to be taken over by one flower, one form of forms. Then the rule is paracausality. The ability to fight destiny and make it our own. But I have two concerns. One, in the scope of thing we as guardians exemplify both light and dark. Showing our right to exist through conquer and devastation, but also as gardeners, helping life thrive and invoking complexity. So if we prove our right to live for the widower and with us being an agent of the light or the gardener. It makes you wonder if this is it. The one flower, that one patch of existence in the garden that proves there Is a way where light, or rather a complex garden of various species can become the final shape of the universe. And two the widower and the gardener at times sound like a single entity. Something sort of how the multiple voices or If you will, alter ego close to how the nine uses the emissary of the nine as a conduit. How it seems in the passage. Conjecture really. @byf
Now it makes sense why Mara Sov is ambivalent of the traveler. And us guardians too. Yes, the traveler represents the gardener. And within that cosmic philosophy, it has given patronage to many worlds. Accelerating their potential _endlessly._ *But* the traveler has ulterior motives behind its patronage. Using civilizations for its cosmic game-war with the darkness(winnower). The traveler is of the light. Maybe two-faced about it. Though a new rule has emerge too. *The exo stranger: A side must always be taking, little light. Even if it’s the wrong side.*
Not gonna get myself too hyped prematurely because ive witnessed bungie botch two game launches now and ive seen how a company with a previously awesome story can mangle it into the most disappointing ending imaginable in Mass Effect 3. I'm gonna go forward expecting D1 base-game levels of storytelling and be pleasantly surprised if it turns out better
The Darkness tends to seek the perfect form through simplicity and to that keep in mind a lie would create unnecessary complexity when the truth is far simpler in form
You know... Thinking of the Light and the Darkness as the two guys in The Billy Bounce dance off... Two entities. Battling it out over patterns and different ways of making the same old thing look new. And then one pulls a knife!!!!! I will never not see the darkness and the traveler doing the Billy Bounce Dance now.
"The Vex have no hope. No imagination, no drive, no fear. All they have is the Pattern. Everything must fit. If it can be made to fit, good. If it can't, it gets cut away."- Praedyth "In their game, the gardener and the winnower discovered shapes of possibility. They foresaw bodies and civilizations, minds and cognitions, qualia and suffering. They learned the rules that governed which patterns would flourish in the game, and which would dwindle. They learned those rules, because they were those rules. And in time the gardener became VEXED." - The Flower Game Definitely implies the final shape/pattern is the Vex. (Originally posted in reply to Xen's post)
May come from my interpretation, but that last line, "The Gardener became vexed", may also imply that in the end, he WILL be subdued by the final shape... proving Darkness' point that everything Light is doing is creating unnecessary complexity that will only delay the Universe's DESTINY.
Maybe he's so advanced that the rules of the game no longer apply to him? If he exists outside the game he could already know everything we're trying to figure out
From the lore. Rasputin did go incognito, until he could figure out a countermeasure to this darkness. Maybe Rasputin learned about the cosmic game-war, between the gardener(traveler), and the winnower(darkness).
I love the reference to Nomic. It's a game invtented in 1982 by philosopher Peter Suber. The game includes mechanisms for the players to change the rules. It seems the darkness was fine with creation and destruction following a very specific pattern, no variance, all the same. The light....not so much. The light created chaos, change, uncertainty. This railed against the very existence of the darkness, causing it to follow it's purpose and destroy what doesn't conform to the pattern.
This whole story makes me remember something Mara said about the traveler. She would have attacked it because it purposely starts fights and people suffer for it
If we haven’t, I want us to be the first Darkbearer. Have ghost try and talk us out of it but then also join. Then with our new found powers, decimate.
So don't know if anyone else has said this but the flower game imo is a clear reference to a very old computer game called "the game of life" by John conway where certain shapes naturally take hold. It's pretty cool actually.
There wont be, because there cant be. If we kill the darkness, or destroy the winnower, then the universe will spiral out of control. The winnower is in this case, a necessary evil
@@polyshrub well yes, but there is always an eternal balance, last time the traveller crossed paths with the pyramids they were both pushed back or weakened. If something happens to benefit the light then something will also be of benefit to the darkness. There is no way for the flower game to end as both players cannot be defeated.
I believe the rule that the Darkness is talking about is that the Light brought in is us the players. We can't be affected directly by the events in the game therefore we are a separate rule from the already established rules. And you can bet that we've caused some chaos.
I’d like to point out a Grimoire card from the dreams of alpha lupi (I don’t remember which) where he talks about knives pinning down something (possibly the traveler)
Something I noticed in the lore book cover was that all the lines intersect on where Mars is. All the "S" shaped lines and then the tip of the outer triangle and the outer circle meet on Mars. I'm going to take a soft bet and say we will fight the actual darkness there first
At this point, I'm pretty much convinced that the Darkness is trying to tempt us, Guardians, into using its powers so that we might fight off invading forces and become the Final Shape ourselves.
destiny 2's story has always reminded me of the slayers anime and now even more so, to clarify in the slayers anime you have your main light and darkness gods and 4 lords of light and darkness but above both light and dark is the lord of nightmares the one who shines like gold on sea of chaos, the lord of nightmares represents the beginning and end of all things, all is born from the infinite sea of chaos (possibility) and in the end returns to it, i am really starting to think there is something bigger in destiny than both the light and dark.
Ain't really much to discuss, lol. Bungie is great at telling extensive stories through several vague cutscenes like that, hopefully we'll get another one next reset, and so on and so forth. Similar to the Drifter and the Nine cutscenes that we got in Forsaken.
Rather than the "origin of conflict" Could it be the inception of The Sword Logic? And "The Winnower" now starts sharpening their blade after the Gardener and Winnower insert themselves into the game.
Once you walk in the dark, it is so very hard to walk in the light. -Dredgen Yor This line, I keep coming back to it. Because after shadowkeep it implies that there is a perspective gained from the darkness, to which my mind ails to see. The shadows hold many things, is the truth in its whole form, one of them?
3:11 , 8:52 The Nine: THIS PLANE? WE CAN LEAVE THIS PLANE. Emissary: Think bigger. He can leave this game Hmmm so the light and dark are aware of the game, unless the word game is being used as a metaphor. I wonder what it means that the Emissary is also aware of the fact that she's in a game.
I interpreted this as 'The Winower was angered by a theme wherein a single bodg or entity, under the original 4 rules of the Flower Game, would persist to conquer all others'. And that the Winower created a function in the game by entering it to prevent gridlocks or monchromatic outcomes because they would ensure the game never grows, or evolves.
@@davemarx7856 That and because the original rule set can be abused to create a single type of flower that kills and subplants the rest. It means that the game would be played a million times with the same outcome. So the Winnower needed a new mechanic to make it worthwhile
Tradition and discovery, one keeps us safe from the dangers of not only the world but ourselves, but stops us from growing and expanding our perspective. The other does not guarantee our safety, does not protect us from the unknown but allows us to prosper in traversing new territory. No answer is right or wrong, every answer to every question only has benefits and drawbacks. I personally believe the winnower advocates tradition, and the gardener supports discovery. The same way that order and chaos works together, but which is order and which is chaos?
The dominating pattern seems to be the Great Filter. Kurzgesagt had a great video on it. The new rule allows for abundance of intelligent life in the universe. Intelligence and consciousness are necessary to understand pain, thus the Winnower says that the new rule will bring only suffering. This also explains why the Darkness says that it is our "salvation". It believes is that it is saving us from the suffering, that inevitably comes with fighting for the right to exist, by snuffing us out.
That's most likely just a gag referencing Bungie themselves, since that text only appears when you die via fall damage and similar deaths, thus you were killed by the ones who made the map
We see the darkness has Knives in its hands. And we know that the Gardener/Light was thd only other person there..... We discover this was the origins of the "Solo Blade Barrage"
So I don’t know if anyone has said this but the game they are playing is Conways Game of Life. The base rules before the light and dark enter the game, are 1:1 the same as Conways Game of Life. Very fascinating stuff.
It might be that the entirety of conflict is the idea of the Gardener going throughout the universe(s) and creating life as its 'new rule' and the Winnower seeking to undo that. It might make sense that, going with the theme of the Gardener representing complexity and the Winnower representing simplicity, that the Gardener's nature is to create new and more complex things while the Winnower, wanting only to stay within the rules of the 'game' (simplistic nature, not wanting change) seeks to always undo it and bring the game back to it's original state.
Change will always bring chaos, but from chaos comes the desire for order. The only consistent is inconsistency. Change can breed development, development can breed improvement, through patients and sacrifice a situation may find a way to create a rhythm of beautiful chaos and resiliance. To observe the struggles of a kinds worlds is to witness the greatest rising of worlds. The highest you can get is to transcend your lowest, your lowest is to choose to succumb to the belief that there is no longer a way or purpose. Struggle is always worth the end.
NanaPharcyde i fee like we as the guardian are the new rule, the way the gardener speaks I feel like the light already existed and in every scenario darkness won
Either way. The traveler represents the gardener. And the new rule can be multiple things. It decided to fight the darkness head on, becoming severely weakened. As our patron, us guardians are something the traveler has never done for other worlds. Its usual stance was passive-aggressiveness of gardening civilizations. Edit: Than using them like proxies. Hoping they would blossom with *unlimited possibilities* to usurp the winnower. All has failed, no matter how sophisticated the flowers grew themselves. Or the bomb logic could be the new rule. The bomb logic is part of Mara Sov’s greater plan.
Lil' Vampire I mean the sword logic is pretty hypocritical. A sword is simple sure, but what makes up that simplicity, trillions of atoms in complex structures. Another that piece of tech your using. Break the pieces down to its simple parts they are useless and shouldn’t exist because they are useless. I think that’s pretty shitty. Because all those pieces make something that is capable of more than a sword. The hypocrisy is that if simplicity is the only thing that matters, why are simple things made of complexity. Why can something complex make something so simple in its finality
@@TheLegendaryLegacy I'm pretty sure that in regards to simplicity and complexity, they refer to the purpose of the object. A sword has a simple purpose, its used to cut down enemies. The simplicity and complexity of the way they look is just symbolism to further stress this.
I don’t think the darkness has any reason to lie, at the moment. The best lies are often veiled under the guise of truth. So we’ll have to wait and see what the darkness says in the future. Theory time, I do believe that ultimately we’ll have to make a choice. To allow the flower game to go back on course, and force the universe into a “final state,” or to continue to allow chaos ensue, as the light wills it.
Someone has probably already mentioned this but I found it interesting. When running one of the Emissary to the Nine card quests, the Emissary mentions that the Guardian has a lot of agency. When the Nine don't understand(as they tend to do) the Emissary says to think bigger. She says the player Guardian has enough agency to not only escape this plane but also the game. Now that the flower game is a part of lore it makes me wonder if she is talking about the same thing?
Hi, I was just finishing the emissary quest from SOTD and putting this together with the idea that when she says we can leave the “game” might have some serious implications that we are going to do just that in the future; leave the game of the light and dark.
Something of note is that being the instigator of a conflict does not necessarily put you in the moral wrong (nor does it inherently entail violence). Any attempt to change an existing system even if positive creates conflict when those who wish to see that system upheld resist, that does not make the change bad or those initiating the conflict to bring it about in the wrong (abolishing slavery for instance of you want a historical example). In fact looking at the text the Darkness/Winnower says it found itself holding the first knife. That speaks to me that while the Light/Gardener may have instigated the conflict it was the Darkness that choose to exasperate the conflict to violence instead of finding some alternate way of hashing it out. Indeed the Darkness never seems to give much consideration to what the Light has to say on the matter and just shoots down any suggestion that contradicts the supposed perfection and beauty of the flower game.
The way the Darkness describes the pattern that is made in the flower game is suspiciously similar to descriptions of the Vex. That explanation would also fit with the statement about the gardener becoming vexed. And it fits because the Vex would win everything in a universe with no para-causality.
Worth noting is the fact that the Light is the instigator because the Darkness is happy with the status quo, which is to say the Final Shape philosophy that inspired the Hive. Instigating conflict is not inherently wrong if that conflict is intended to produce a better world, to allow life to flourish and grow instead of forcing it to choose between committing genocide or being the victim of it.
I can't help but to think of the Animorphs book series when watching these videos on the light and dark. Personifying these forces and having them "play a game" reminds me very much of the Ellimist and Crayak from that series. Two god like entities that were too powerful to fight each other so they used inferior creatures to do their bidding in their own "games."
Finding this after the new Lightfall drop has me thinking. I’m new to the lore part of Destiny (so I’m mostly just theory crafting here) I’ve played the game sense D1 but from this part alone I can come up with a theory of how the ending can play out. The Gardner putting its new “rule” in to action, the winnower taking chase to stop this new “rule” from straying away from the pre-set rules put in place. The traveler setting out to give the “light” to all the universes (gardens/flowers) to create a new game to let the flowers decide the rules. The witness opposing this new game as it is “delaying the dominant pattern” as there is only “one final shape” one way for life to raise and fall. Now there is not “one final shape” there are many, the rules have changed the rules of the game open to the influence of the gardener (traveler) and winnower (the witness). The witness only knows one role, it has only one purpose, one principle, and could do nothing more but continue that purpose, to separate the husks from the from the wheat. So I guess a long winded exploration on the witness stopping the traveler in the game and correcting the game to play out as it should be. Taking the light away from everyone, putting everything back to the original game and rules. Survival of the fittest, separating the husk from the wheat. Separating the weak from the strong. Letting life flow as intended starting a new, and at a point finally ending. 😅😅
Wait, from my understanding, the flower that was poisoned is our universe and when the gardener spilled mud on it, the collapse and the dark age happened. Then the gardener added the new rule. The new rule were the guardians. Sounds kinda crazy but i might be onto something lol
Just saying, the flowers are just conway's game of life, as an analogy for universal expansion and entropy, an analogy that us mere mortals may understand.
You know, the other implication is that the Darkness became enthralled by the final shape. It self identifies as "the closer of flowers", and yet it becomes obsessed with this self perpetuating pattern. I think it either is wanting to become synonymous with this pattern instead of just the closing of flowers, something more real somehow than itself and the Light, or its bending the knee to this pattern that refuses to end despite the Winnower's (or the Gardener's for that matter) role and influence.
I like the idea that the Darkness is not only not lying but in essence has no motivation to do so. Only through the human need to personify things of the natural world for understanding is this an issue, I will do so for that purpose. - Assume that the Light, in a moment of frustration/jealousy posed the question Ikora refers to in the Vex cut scene, Where the Vex are the answer to the question of the garden (light). Let us assume that question is how to protect the garden from the inevitability of the darkness or the garden dying. By this idea the Light instigated a conflict by seeking to redefine the rules of the universe by denying the darkness (or the end of the light) its function. In essence we could see the light as the "bad guy" in the conflict or at least the prime mover. Given the current rule (aside from raw energy) of our existence that all thing given life inevitably die. The lights attempts to create that which does not cease to exist, or at the least an entity to attempt this idea, and that is a violation of that natural order and as such would drive the darkness to rectify this transgression. In essence the darkness is attempting to restore order to the universe! I think any lies or misleading would be the bias of the individual recording the intentions of something they cannot fully quantify. Such forces have no right and wrong, like the wolf and the deer, neither is bad they simply exist with purpose. However, looking at this as a myth of angry gods is far more entertaining. Maybe this makes no sense but thank you for the wonderful videos!
As I've said in other video comments (that in all likelihood nobody reads), the flower game is an analogy for the universe. Each "day" in the garden is the life of a different universes, from start to end. In each cycle, the gardener and winnower merely observe. They are the rules. But what makes our universe special is the presence of the Traveler and the physical Darkness. These are the manifestations of Gardener and Winnower as they inserted themselves into the game. It is the will of reality itself made manifest in our world.
So, I had a theory. Bare in mind I only have a basic lore understanding. What if the Vex are Ghosts taken over by the Darkness? Like they come from the future where the Darkness has won, they worship it in the Black Garden, and have a fundamental beef with the Guardians. Like Harpies are newer Ghost to Vex converts, which is why they still float, then they get bodies similar to their older Guardians. The "Vex Milk" is just extracted Light, converted to the Darkness, and put back in to give the bodies mobility
Notice the cover for the Unveiling is the Syzygy that was talked about in the books of sorrow? Also, I think there is a hot of meta commentary as well: the light complaining about exploits and how it always ends up the same could be references to people who aren't fans of meta building (this idea that you have the build a character in a game a specific way if you want to achieve optimum results.) The light wants the game to be rewarding for those who explore new opportunities not watch it devolve into the same pattern over and over and over.
I like the idea of the light being the agitator. It could make sense. For instance the dark seemingly always finalizes things (win). Causing the light to get aggrivated and cheat. Now the dark is chasing and righting unnatural wrongs
Life and existence itself is chaos. Ever changing. Evolving. Expanding. Death on the other hand is still, finite and absolute. All thinks, even our own universe will come to an end. So here we have "The Gardener" and "The Winnower"...entities that represent creation and destruction. But the entity of creation is the one who embodies chaos, whereas the entity of destruction embodies order. It's the most unique dichotomy of the entire entry.
Maybe I’m reading this wrong but “the Final Shape” the Gardener complains about sounds an awful lot to me like the Vex. Like they are an inevitability in every version of the game, similar to the Cylons in BSG.
A dude called F N commented about this on this section. Really interesting. Maybe Osiri's speculations are right... the Vex are atemporal, invincible, and the true form to reign above all.
I had a thought, what if the darkness was actually the light before, and what if the traveler drained their light and created the darkness? I’m not a lore genius like byf but I love hearing and learning the lore
It may just be me but when I read about all that 'the pattern' does it sounded mighty similar to the vex. Which also aligns with the second book as the one thing the vex. (the pattern) can't simulate is paracausal forces. (the new rules)
I think you're way too stuck on the idea that these flowers represent "universes" - it seems heavily implied that this "pattern" is the Vex. Consider the Vex timeline-manipulation in order to "Be the last thing" - to "Survive the universe" in multiple timelines. This fits entirely too well, especially the mention of the pattern being "Self-correcting". Also - ya know.... Ikora IS kinda building a big friggin Vex gate right in our living room....
"The Vex have no hope. No imagination, no drive, no fear. All they have is the Pattern. Everything must fit. If it can be made to fit, good. If it can't, it gets cut away."- Praedyth "In their game, the gardener and the winnower discovered shapes of possibility. They foresaw bodies and civilizations, minds and cognitions, qualia and suffering. They learned the rules that governed which patterns would flourish in the game, and which would dwindle. They learned those rules, because they were those rules. And in time the gardener became VEXED." - The Flower Game Definitely implies the final shape/pattern is the Vex.
Seems like the Gardener became/created the Vex. Not only because of the "Vexed" part but also "I will make myself a rule in this game". Reminds you of anything ?
I feel like this is the first reference, or rather origin to both the Sword and Bomb logic, what with the Gardener needing to add complexity, which is the ideal of Bomb logic. As opposed to the Sword logic being as simple and as little complexity
@@reya10276 If the sword logic is all about taking the most basic and simplest form to make oneself stronger, the bomb logic is that it takes the most complicated shape to accomplish the same end. Think triangle vs circle as far as how complex shapes go.
I think it more appropiate to say that the light is a force of change, and the darkness is counter change, or resists change. The light seeks to change "the game", by getting involved. The role of the darkness is then set to offset that change, nullify it.
It seems like this final shape is basically the idea of the heat death of the universe. It makes sense why the Gardner would dislike this part of the game as they exist to create life and at the very end, there is nothing left to create. I think so far the darkness has been totally truthful.
@@jt_the_damaja eh we still dont know the entire story, one hand we could say rasputin crippled the traveler and it was forced to stay and help us, the other story is it decided to stay and help us, still don't know yet. i like to think the traveler isnt at all what we think it is and that its just something completely different from what the vanguard and speaker say. In the original script for destiny the traveler was actually suppose to be evil, and out player was going to join up with some rogue guardian to stop it. Atleast thats what i read from the old leaked script that bungie scrapped.
Don’t know if anyone has noted yet but it seams to me like the gardener basically started playing chess with the winnower by creating the traveler. So the winnower created a power to combat it and play the game of shapes(chess) The guardians are the first champion of the light to win the chess game and now the darkness sees it
Is it possible that the pattern they are referring to is the Vex? Since they are of the garden and the only issues they have with expanding through the universe is the paracausal entities that were "inserted" into the game. If not for the traveler and the darkness their conquest would probably be assured.
It would be interesting to see that the darkness is secretly in the right. True the light has brought gifts of power and revival but the darkness seems to wish for conflict to simply end. The light seems curious of what could happen next if one thing was changed, but we all know what curiosity did to the cat.
I like the idea that the darkness is being 100% truthful (so far) with its messages, because it sounds exactly like how the darkness already just views anything that doesn't conform to the final shape. It doesn't have to and probably isn't lying because it's the genuine view of the darkness.
However, that doesn't make it the objective truth, or at least the darkness is trying to convince us that this should be the truth.
It's entirely correct to assume the darkness as being a sociopath with extreme OCD and a fair bit of autism. It doesnt understand nor appreciate the idea of varying patterns and shapes, much less the changing of rules, its uncomfortable with the idea of change and when it is finally forced into the role of the literal, rather than metaphorical, ontological winnower the darkness finds no cruelty in carrying out its singular purpose.
Yeah, I think the Darkness is being truthful.
It just has a very different value system than we do.
It's leaving out the feelings of the gardener. I think the gardener is mad that nothing is given a chance with it's own power, it's all luck.
The gardener making sentient species is a unique opportunity to separately from the very basic game. The end of the universe is inevitable, but the darkness is dead set on maintaining the pattern regardless. The light feels it doesn't need to be that simple.
The light can save from unnecessary death. The darkness sees death as a way expressing meaning through existing. The darkness can't understand that I think and so it only tells truths from its perspective.
To me, the gardener is a belligerent child while the winnower seems to be a resigned aged.
Only a whiney, psychotic little twat would "flip the table" because they kept "losing" to their own rules. They fight, and kick, and scream from room to room until the adult leaves. Then they just sit there, picking at a scab, and ignoring all else until they see something wearing their shirt; then they throw a fit, and set them on fire, before going back to that scab.
I’m on the darkness’ side tbh. A lot has happened with the light that shouldn’t have. If the Veil (that’s what i call what made the copy of ourselves in the cutscene) are our salvation, im all about it.
The Gardener: I’m going to become a rule in the game- Wait what do you have?
The Winnower: A KNIFE!
The Gardener: NO!
The Light becoming part of the game could be the introduction of the Traveler. The Traveler being the light’s representative/ or the light itself. Giving species chances to do extraordinary things with the gift bestowed upon them by the Traveler/Light. Hence new things and possibilities. The Darkness/the Pyramids are there to put everything back to way it was.
Devon Balbosa I thought the exact same thing, it’s probably the case tbh
Yup. The traveler’s patronage has inspired many intelligent species into a golden age of _endless possibilities._ The traveler is of the light, but nobody has mentioned how it’s like a two-faced. No matter how sophisticated, every civilization has been purged. Deceived into a golden age, than set up against this cosmic game-war. Now it’s tired of fleeing with no avail. A new rule.
Edit: The most recent entry of Unveiling, reminded me of the Distributary. A pocket universe, homeland of the awoken. Unperturbed, the awoken developed a civilization of exponential growth, and abundance. Only Mara Sov’s faction left to aid their ancestors. Humanity. The awoken’s distributary maybe this special new rule.
THE COSMOLOGY true statement. I don’t think that it is necessarily two-faced. but the Light and Dark are just entities. Our feelings and understanding doesn’t really apply because they do think as we do. They have their directive. Light: to flourish; Dark: to purge. The strong survive. But with that the status quo was, life then death, with not much “flourishing” occurring. So in comes the Traveler to give us more possibilities as you said. But then comes the Darkness set things right. But the dark isn’t evil. Its just doing what it’s meant to do. We just want to survive so we fight back.
So really the Light the cheat code in a universal game ran on the source code which is the Darkness?
Devon Balbosa- Maybe two-faced is the wrong term, but there’s some kind of deception behind the traveler’s patronage. These civilizations are oblivious to the gardener’s nemesis. Than it arrives to mercilessly destroy them.
And the winnower(darkness) is not evil to you? The winnower’s cosmic philosophy lacks a conscience. Destroying innocent worlds, because it loathes their complexity. That’s malevolence.
The traveler. The gardener’s cosmic philosophy has a conscience. It seeks to uplift the potential of intelligent species, to an undreamt level. That’s benevolence.
This cosmic game-war seems like the gray area between the paracasual forces. As both are striving for a final shape. One is utter complexity. One is utter simplicity.
When the Winnower "discovered the first knife", I thought that was the origin of the Sword Logic. It sounded like he was referencing that philosophical concept earlier.
Yep, a knife, like the inception of a sword.
Yeah, mostly likely Sword Logic is the Hive's variation/interpretation of The First Knife.
I dont think it sees a literal knife. It is the concept. At that point the winnower decides fight the gardener and becomes the first weapon.(as a metaphor.) Kinda cain and abel ish, like in the first murder
@@Itamashi Exactly
Remember: the natural order of things that the Darkness admires would probably be something like the Vex, a final shape eclipsing everything else, an all-consuming pattern with no room for anything that can't be made to fit.
To use an allegory: Tobacco is natural too, but we've long decided that it's not good for you.
And to use a meme: just because the Darkness might be correct doesn't mean it's right.
It has strong likings of fanatical ideas in which people are either forced to fit in or forced out. The darkness might be wrong but it believes to be right; this could end up becoming quite an interesting villain.
Uh...I'd change the subject of your allegory...use lead or plutonium or arsenic...
Petition to let byf be the new speaker of the traveler in destiny 3 because he pretty much allready is
I'll go ask my gardener, Tim, if he knows anything about this
LMAO 😂 😂😂 😂
but please, do it without a knife ;P
No Tim is darkness
Potate -O what did Tim say?
Dark Guardians, Light Guardians, they're all the same when you shoot them twice and their ghost once
The last book exemplifies the story of destiny almost perfectly. Also prove one point the darkness made. How the gardener is the instigator of conflict. Because in the concept of the flowers, darkness prevails every time. Snuffs the other flowers out becoming the one true dominant flower. Until the gardener enacts a new rule to help the other flowers flourish more as a means to allow complexity and new possibilities to bare. Possibly just stalling for the inevitable as said by the darkness; for the one flower above all others to eventually approach and take claim. But the rule not only helps life flourish. It’s the essence of the background of destiny. The fight against fate, against DESTINY! For if the true shape of the garden was to be taken over by one flower, one form of forms. Then the rule is paracausality. The ability to fight destiny and make it our own.
But I have two concerns. One, in the scope of thing we as guardians exemplify both light and dark. Showing our right to exist through conquer and devastation, but also as gardeners, helping life thrive and invoking complexity. So if we prove our right to live for the widower and with us being an agent of the light or the gardener. It makes you wonder if this is it. The one flower, that one patch of existence in the garden that proves there Is a way where light, or rather a complex garden of various species can become the final shape of the universe.
And two the widower and the gardener at times sound like a single entity. Something sort of how the multiple voices or If you will, alter ego close to how the nine uses the emissary of the nine as a conduit. How it seems in the passage. Conjecture really. @byf
I still don’t get why no one has addressed the fact that the artifact that we got at the end of the campaign is identical to the traveler
It looked exactly the same, just the colour might have been different.
Myelin games did a completely mind blowing video about This. Highly recommend it :D
I'm not shapist but all spheres look the same
@@deletemii3312 it has the same textures
i dunno its kinda hot, the traveller looking thicc
Now it makes sense why Mara Sov is ambivalent of the traveler. And us guardians too. Yes, the traveler represents the gardener. And within that cosmic philosophy, it has given patronage to many worlds. Accelerating their potential _endlessly._
*But* the traveler has ulterior motives behind its patronage. Using civilizations for its cosmic game-war with the darkness(winnower). The traveler is of the light. Maybe two-faced about it. Though a new rule has emerge too.
*The exo stranger: A side must always be taking, little light. Even if it’s the wrong side.*
Just as Sideous had said to Vader, and Vader to Sideous, "If he could be turned"...
Awesome to see you comment on this channel :) so you play destiny?
Anyone else going along with all this heavy lore and just getting more and more hyped for how destiny 3 is going to play out?
Bungie said it wants to continuee D2 for 5 more years
@@potatonugget5629 source?
Fernix www.gamespot.com/articles/destiny-2s-5-year-plan-means-you-shouldnt-expect-d/1100-6469912/
Not gonna get myself too hyped prematurely because ive witnessed bungie botch two game launches now and ive seen how a company with a previously awesome story can mangle it into the most disappointing ending imaginable in Mass Effect 3. I'm gonna go forward expecting D1 base-game levels of storytelling and be pleasantly surprised if it turns out better
@@x54xHantamachine We don't speak of Mass effect...
The Darkness tends to seek the perfect form through simplicity and to that keep in mind a lie would create unnecessary complexity when the truth is far simpler in form
You know... Thinking of the Light and the Darkness as the two guys in The Billy Bounce dance off... Two entities. Battling it out over patterns and different ways of making the same old thing look new. And then one pulls a knife!!!!! I will never not see the darkness and the traveler doing the Billy Bounce Dance now.
I appreciate this channel so much. I don't have time to lore-hunt when I play, so I listen to this channel while I'm at work
"The Vex have no hope. No imagination, no drive, no fear. All they have is the Pattern. Everything must fit. If it can be made to fit, good. If it can't, it gets cut away."- Praedyth
"In their game, the gardener and the winnower discovered shapes of possibility. They foresaw bodies and civilizations, minds and cognitions, qualia and suffering. They learned the rules that governed which patterns would flourish in the game, and which would dwindle.
They learned those rules, because they were those rules.
And in time the gardener became VEXED." - The Flower Game
Definitely implies the final shape/pattern is the Vex.
(Originally posted in reply to Xen's post)
May come from my interpretation, but that last line, "The Gardener became vexed", may also imply that in the end, he WILL be subdued by the final shape... proving Darkness' point that everything Light is doing is creating unnecessary complexity that will only delay the Universe's DESTINY.
Best time of day is the time a Byf video releases. Love the content!
Word
I can see why lore tabs for some of the exotics and such would refer to the traveler/light as the gardener, but how did Rasputin figure it out?
Biggest and best ai to ever exist
Maybe he's so advanced that the rules of the game no longer apply to him? If he exists outside the game he could already know everything we're trying to figure out
@@potatonugget5629 wasn't it thinking of trapping the traveler if it didnt help humanity longer and not move?
@@potatonugget5629 Gödel's incompleteness theorems wants to talk to you.
From the lore. Rasputin did go incognito, until he could figure out a countermeasure to this darkness. Maybe Rasputin learned about the cosmic game-war, between the gardener(traveler), and the winnower(darkness).
I love the reference to Nomic. It's a game invtented in 1982 by philosopher Peter Suber. The game includes mechanisms for the players to change the rules. It seems the darkness was fine with creation and destruction following a very specific pattern, no variance, all the same. The light....not so much. The light created chaos, change, uncertainty. This railed against the very existence of the darkness, causing it to follow it's purpose and destroy what doesn't conform to the pattern.
This whole story makes me remember something Mara said about the traveler. She would have attacked it because it purposely starts fights and people suffer for it
Will there be a discussion/video on this week's cutscene? Do you think we have seen the first "Darkbearer"?
Steven Barcia i think we have... i also believe the darkness made a wish with the ahamkara bone
I'd assume that Fikrul qualifies, what with the immortality and all
What cutscene?
@McBobbish @Jack Fitzpatrick it's the cutscene when you log on, it shows eris on the pyramid ship and she interacts with the artefact
If we haven’t, I want us to be the first Darkbearer. Have ghost try and talk us out of it but then also join. Then with our new found powers, decimate.
So don't know if anyone else has said this but the flower game imo is a clear reference to a very old computer game called "the game of life" by John conway where certain shapes naturally take hold. It's pretty cool actually.
The "assigned dominions" bit makes me feel how ambivalent these forces are. Good reading!
I can't wait to see the final battle betwen light and dark
There wont be, because there cant be. If we kill the darkness, or destroy the winnower, then the universe will spiral out of control. The winnower is in this case, a necessary evil
@@high.fructose7534 I like the way you worded that
Man, is going to fucking suck. Just you wait, LMAO 😂 😂
@@high.fructose7534 Yes, but it is suggested that there will be one, becouse we know for a fact, that the darkness is comming towards Earth.
@@polyshrub well yes, but there is always an eternal balance, last time the traveller crossed paths with the pyramids they were both pushed back or weakened. If something happens to benefit the light then something will also be of benefit to the darkness. There is no way for the flower game to end as both players cannot be defeated.
I believe the rule that the Darkness is talking about is that the Light brought in is us the players. We can't be affected directly by the events in the game therefore we are a separate rule from the already established rules. And you can bet that we've caused some chaos.
I’d like to point out a Grimoire card from the dreams of alpha lupi (I don’t remember which) where he talks about knives pinning down something (possibly the traveler)
Something I noticed in the lore book cover was that all the lines intersect on where Mars is. All the "S" shaped lines and then the tip of the outer triangle and the outer circle meet on Mars. I'm going to take a soft bet and say we will fight the actual darkness there first
At this point, I'm pretty much convinced that the Darkness is trying to tempt us, Guardians, into using its powers so that we might fight off invading forces and become the Final Shape ourselves.
destiny 2's story has always reminded me of the slayers anime and now even more so, to clarify in the slayers anime you have your main light and darkness gods and 4 lords of light and darkness but above both light and dark is the lord of nightmares the one who shines like gold on sea of chaos, the lord of nightmares represents the beginning and end of all things, all is born from the infinite sea of chaos (possibility) and in the end returns to it, i am really starting to think there is something bigger in destiny than both the light and dark.
I went to watch some old videos of yours and then you uploaded this so I'm so happy lol
Can we discuss the cutscene from Eris from this weeks reset with her touching the statue?
Ain't really much to discuss, lol. Bungie is great at telling extensive stories through several vague cutscenes like that, hopefully we'll get another one next reset, and so on and so forth. Similar to the Drifter and the Nine cutscenes that we got in Forsaken.
@@DylanJT99 so there is something to discuss then lol
@@ImpressiiveGames In due time lol
Imagine listening goodnight stories from daddy byf
super juice I do, they are called these Lore videos XD
Rather than the "origin of conflict"
Could it be the inception of The Sword Logic? And "The Winnower" now starts sharpening their blade after the Gardener and Winnower insert themselves into the game.
Once you walk in the dark, it is so very hard to walk in the light.
-Dredgen Yor
This line, I keep coming back to it. Because after shadowkeep it implies that there is a perspective gained from the darkness, to which my mind ails to see. The shadows hold many things, is the truth in its whole form, one of them?
I just love the fact the byf talks about the “creation” of the universe while ruthlessly kill hive worms
3:11 , 8:52
The Nine: THIS PLANE? WE CAN LEAVE THIS PLANE.
Emissary: Think bigger. He can leave this game
Hmmm so the light and dark are aware of the game, unless the word game is being used as a metaphor. I wonder what it means that the Emissary is also aware of the fact that she's in a game.
I interpreted this as 'The Winower was angered by a theme wherein a single bodg or entity, under the original 4 rules of the Flower Game, would persist to conquer all others'.
And that the Winower created a function in the game by entering it to prevent gridlocks or monchromatic outcomes because they would ensure the game never grows, or evolves.
Like they were sick of playing tic-tac-toe and decided to invent chess
@@davemarx7856 That and because the original rule set can be abused to create a single type of flower that kills and subplants the rest. It means that the game would be played a million times with the same outcome.
So the Winnower needed a new mechanic to make it worthwhile
Makes sense!
I love how you actually use emotion whenever you’re reading lore, real nice brother
Tradition and discovery, one keeps us safe from the dangers of not only the world but ourselves, but stops us from growing and expanding our perspective. The other does not guarantee our safety, does not protect us from the unknown but allows us to prosper in traversing new territory.
No answer is right or wrong, every answer to every question only has benefits and drawbacks.
I personally believe the winnower advocates tradition, and the gardener supports discovery. The same way that order and chaos works together, but which is order and which is chaos?
The dominating pattern seems to be the Great Filter. Kurzgesagt had a great video on it. The new rule allows for abundance of intelligent life in the universe. Intelligence and consciousness are necessary to understand pain, thus the Winnower says that the new rule will bring only suffering. This also explains why the Darkness says that it is our "salvation". It believes is that it is saving us from the suffering, that inevitably comes with fighting for the right to exist, by snuffing us out.
I love the cover of the lore book. The simple design of the solar system and the triangle (darkness) and the circle (traveler) in the background
What if when our guardian dies to “The Architects” it’s the Gardener just pissed off 💀
That's most likely just a gag referencing Bungie themselves, since that text only appears when you die via fall damage and similar deaths, thus you were killed by the ones who made the map
@@modil2935 it IS a gag, a reference to the Architects in Halo.
What Architects are you referring to?
We see the darkness has Knives in its hands.
And we know that the Gardener/Light was thd only other person there.....
We discover this was the origins of the "Solo Blade Barrage"
Thank you for breaking down all this metaphor to something I can understand
So I don’t know if anyone has said this but the game they are playing is Conways Game of Life. The base rules before the light and dark enter the game, are 1:1 the same as Conways Game of Life. Very fascinating stuff.
Maybe the gardener closing a flower is an analogy for the traveler abandoning the eliksni.
Me: *thinks that destiny is one big war of shapes*
Bungie: (high as balls) “but wait have we told you about the flowers and worms?”
It might be that the entirety of conflict is the idea of the Gardener going throughout the universe(s) and creating life as its 'new rule' and the Winnower seeking to undo that. It might make sense that, going with the theme of the Gardener representing complexity and the Winnower representing simplicity, that the Gardener's nature is to create new and more complex things while the Winnower, wanting only to stay within the rules of the 'game' (simplistic nature, not wanting change) seeks to always undo it and bring the game back to it's original state.
Change will always bring chaos, but from chaos comes the desire for order. The only consistent is inconsistency. Change can breed development, development can breed improvement, through patients and sacrifice a situation may find a way to create a rhythm of beautiful chaos and resiliance. To observe the struggles of a kinds worlds is to witness the greatest rising of worlds. The highest you can get is to transcend your lowest, your lowest is to choose to succumb to the belief that there is no longer a way or purpose. Struggle is always worth the end.
*Darkness theme intensifies*
Idea: The Gardener isn't the Traveler, the Traveler is the new rule.
The gardener *became* the new rule. If the Traveler is the new rule, then the gardener became the traveler.
NanaPharcyde i fee like we as the guardian are the new rule, the way the gardener speaks I feel like the light already existed and in every scenario darkness won
Xavier. We are a result of the new rule. We are the flowers rewarded for our lack of conformity to the “common pattern”
Avery Jewett ah
Either way. The traveler represents the gardener. And the new rule can be multiple things. It decided to fight the darkness head on, becoming severely weakened. As our patron, us guardians are something the traveler has never done for other worlds. Its usual stance was passive-aggressiveness of gardening civilizations.
Edit: Than using them like proxies. Hoping they would blossom with *unlimited possibilities* to usurp the winnower. All has failed, no matter how sophisticated the flowers grew themselves.
Or the bomb logic could be the new rule. The bomb logic is part of Mara Sov’s greater plan.
The way you roll your r's is very cool sounding.
“This is all from the darkness, so it may be lies” Ok, light boy 🐶
Lil' Vampire I mean the sword logic is pretty hypocritical.
A sword is simple sure, but what makes up that simplicity, trillions of atoms in complex structures.
Another that piece of tech your using. Break the pieces down to its simple parts they are useless and shouldn’t exist because they are useless. I think that’s pretty shitty. Because all those pieces make something that is capable of more than a sword.
The hypocrisy is that if simplicity is the only thing that matters, why are simple things made of complexity. Why can something complex make something so simple in its finality
@@TheLegendaryLegacy I'm pretty sure that in regards to simplicity and complexity, they refer to the purpose of the object. A sword has a simple purpose, its used to cut down enemies. The simplicity and complexity of the way they look is just symbolism to further stress this.
I don’t think the darkness has any reason to lie, at the moment. The best lies are often veiled under the guise of truth. So we’ll have to wait and see what the darkness says in the future.
Theory time, I do believe that ultimately we’ll have to make a choice. To allow the flower game to go back on course, and force the universe into a “final state,” or to continue to allow chaos ensue, as the light wills it.
That one dislike was from the Gardener.
I think the Winnower moreso.
omg that ending warm my heart!
Someone has probably already mentioned this but I found it interesting. When running one of the Emissary to the Nine card quests, the Emissary mentions that the Guardian has a lot of agency. When the Nine don't understand(as they tend to do) the Emissary says to think bigger. She says the player Guardian has enough agency to not only escape this plane but also the game. Now that the flower game is a part of lore it makes me wonder if she is talking about the same thing?
I think the darkness makes a very interseting point
Hi, I was just finishing the emissary quest from SOTD and putting this together with the idea that when she says we can leave the “game” might have some serious implications that we are going to do just that in the future; leave the game of the light and dark.
What if the Light kicking mud on the flower directly correlates with the Traveler leaving the Eliskni? And the "new rule" is Guardians
I can’t wait for more!!! Lord BYF preach on
Great video. Thanks so much for doing these
The mud on the flower sounds like the traveler arranging the syzygy to destroy the krill.
Something of note is that being the instigator of a conflict does not necessarily put you in the moral wrong (nor does it inherently entail violence). Any attempt to change an existing system even if positive creates conflict when those who wish to see that system upheld resist, that does not make the change bad or those initiating the conflict to bring it about in the wrong (abolishing slavery for instance of you want a historical example).
In fact looking at the text the Darkness/Winnower says it found itself holding the first knife. That speaks to me that while the Light/Gardener may have instigated the conflict it was the Darkness that choose to exasperate the conflict to violence instead of finding some alternate way of hashing it out. Indeed the Darkness never seems to give much consideration to what the Light has to say on the matter and just shoots down any suggestion that contradicts the supposed perfection and beauty of the flower game.
The way the Darkness describes the pattern that is made in the flower game is suspiciously similar to descriptions of the Vex. That explanation would also fit with the statement about the gardener becoming vexed. And it fits because the Vex would win everything in a universe with no para-causality.
Worth noting is the fact that the Light is the instigator because the Darkness is happy with the status quo, which is to say the Final Shape philosophy that inspired the Hive. Instigating conflict is not inherently wrong if that conflict is intended to produce a better world, to allow life to flourish and grow instead of forcing it to choose between committing genocide or being the victim of it.
I was reading these earlier and honestly thanks for clearing this up
I can't help but to think of the Animorphs book series when watching these videos on the light and dark. Personifying these forces and having them "play a game" reminds me very much of the Ellimist and Crayak from that series. Two god like entities that were too powerful to fight each other so they used inferior creatures to do their bidding in their own "games."
Finding this after the new Lightfall drop has me thinking. I’m new to the lore part of Destiny (so I’m mostly just theory crafting here) I’ve played the game sense D1 but from this part alone I can come up with a theory of how the ending can play out. The Gardner putting its new “rule” in to action, the winnower taking chase to stop this new “rule” from straying away from the pre-set rules put in place. The traveler setting out to give the “light” to all the universes (gardens/flowers) to create a new game to let the flowers decide the rules. The witness opposing this new game as it is “delaying the dominant pattern” as there is only “one final shape” one way for life to raise and fall. Now there is not “one final shape” there are many, the rules have changed the rules of the game open to the influence of the gardener (traveler) and winnower (the witness). The witness only knows one role, it has only one purpose, one principle, and could do nothing more but continue that purpose, to separate the husks from the from the wheat.
So I guess a long winded exploration on the witness stopping the traveler in the game and correcting the game to play out as it should be. Taking the light away from everyone, putting everything back to the original game and rules. Survival of the fittest, separating the husk from the wheat. Separating the weak from the strong. Letting life flow as intended starting a new, and at a point finally ending. 😅😅
Wait, from my understanding, the flower that was poisoned is our universe and when the gardener spilled mud on it, the collapse and the dark age happened. Then the gardener added the new rule. The new rule were the guardians.
Sounds kinda crazy but i might be onto something lol
Just saying, the flowers are just conway's game of life, as an analogy for universal expansion and entropy, an analogy that us mere mortals may understand.
Cool lore and nice gameplay, keep up the work.
In any game there has to be a winner and looser. I feel that we as Gaurdians will win and change the final shape to show the lights way the right way
Beautifully told Byf
You know, the other implication is that the Darkness became enthralled by the final shape. It self identifies as "the closer of flowers", and yet it becomes obsessed with this self perpetuating pattern.
I think it either is wanting to become synonymous with this pattern instead of just the closing of flowers, something more real somehow than itself and the Light, or its bending the knee to this pattern that refuses to end despite the Winnower's (or the Gardener's for that matter) role and influence.
If you have enough info and get a chance, please make a video about the cutscene where Eris was messing with the statue in the pyramid ship.
I like the idea that the Darkness is not only not lying but in essence has no motivation to do so. Only through the human need to personify things of the natural world for understanding is this an issue, I will do so for that purpose. - Assume that the Light, in a moment of frustration/jealousy posed the question Ikora refers to in the Vex cut scene, Where the Vex are the answer to the question of the garden (light). Let us assume that question is how to protect the garden from the inevitability of the darkness or the garden dying. By this idea the Light instigated a conflict by seeking to redefine the rules of the universe by denying the darkness (or the end of the light) its function. In essence we could see the light as the "bad guy" in the conflict or at least the prime mover. Given the current rule (aside from raw energy) of our existence that all thing given life inevitably die. The lights attempts to create that which does not cease to exist, or at the least an entity to attempt this idea, and that is a violation of that natural order and as such would drive the darkness to rectify this transgression. In essence the darkness is attempting to restore order to the universe! I think any lies or misleading would be the bias of the individual recording the intentions of something they cannot fully quantify. Such forces have no right and wrong, like the wolf and the deer, neither is bad they simply exist with purpose. However, looking at this as a myth of angry gods is far more entertaining. Maybe this makes no sense but thank you for the wonderful videos!
I think the gardener is a metaphore for the traveller if you think about it the traveler terraforms entire worlds gardening them with life
As I've said in other video comments (that in all likelihood nobody reads), the flower game is an analogy for the universe. Each "day" in the garden is the life of a different universes, from start to end. In each cycle, the gardener and winnower merely observe. They are the rules. But what makes our universe special is the presence of the Traveler and the physical Darkness. These are the manifestations of Gardener and Winnower as they inserted themselves into the game. It is the will of reality itself made manifest in our world.
So, I had a theory. Bare in mind I only have a basic lore understanding. What if the Vex are Ghosts taken over by the Darkness? Like they come from the future where the Darkness has won, they worship it in the Black Garden, and have a fundamental beef with the Guardians. Like Harpies are newer Ghost to Vex converts, which is why they still float, then they get bodies similar to their older Guardians. The "Vex Milk" is just extracted Light, converted to the Darkness, and put back in to give the bodies mobility
Do you guys think the first knife is the one mentioned in all the taken grimoire cards
If I can recall correctly as well there's the knives in dreams of alpha lupi
Notice the cover for the Unveiling is the Syzygy that was talked about in the books of sorrow? Also, I think there is a hot of meta commentary as well: the light complaining about exploits and how it always ends up the same could be references to people who aren't fans of meta building (this idea that you have the build a character in a game a specific way if you want to achieve optimum results.) The light wants the game to be rewarding for those who explore new opportunities not watch it devolve into the same pattern over and over and over.
I like the idea of the light being the agitator. It could make sense. For instance the dark seemingly always finalizes things (win). Causing the light to get aggrivated and cheat. Now the dark is chasing and righting unnatural wrongs
Life and existence itself is chaos. Ever changing. Evolving. Expanding. Death on the other hand is still, finite and absolute. All thinks, even our own universe will come to an end. So here we have "The Gardener" and "The Winnower"...entities that represent creation and destruction. But the entity of creation is the one who embodies chaos, whereas the entity of destruction embodies order. It's the most unique dichotomy of the entire entry.
Maybe I’m reading this wrong but “the Final Shape” the Gardener complains about sounds an awful lot to me like the Vex. Like they are an inevitability in every version of the game, similar to the Cylons in BSG.
A dude called F N commented about this on this section. Really interesting.
Maybe Osiri's speculations are right... the Vex are atemporal, invincible, and the true form to reign above all.
I had a thought, what if the darkness was actually the light before, and what if the traveler drained their light and created the darkness? I’m not a lore genius like byf but I love hearing and learning the lore
It may just be me but when I read about all that 'the pattern' does it sounded mighty similar to the vex. Which also aligns with the second book as the one thing the vex. (the pattern) can't simulate is paracausal forces. (the new rules)
I think you're way too stuck on the idea that these flowers represent "universes" - it seems heavily implied that this "pattern" is the Vex. Consider the Vex timeline-manipulation in order to "Be the last thing" - to "Survive the universe" in multiple timelines. This fits entirely too well, especially the mention of the pattern being "Self-correcting".
Also - ya know.... Ikora IS kinda building a big friggin Vex gate right in our living room....
"The Vex have no hope. No imagination, no drive, no fear. All they have is the Pattern. Everything must fit. If it can be made to fit, good. If it can't, it gets cut away."- Praedyth
"In their game, the gardener and the winnower discovered shapes of possibility. They foresaw bodies and civilizations, minds and cognitions, qualia and suffering. They learned the rules that governed which patterns would flourish in the game, and which would dwindle.
They learned those rules, because they were those rules.
And in time the gardener became VEXED." - The Flower Game
Definitely implies the final shape/pattern is the Vex.
Oh gosh, the story of the Gardener keeps getting deeper and deeper.
I guess you could say the *Plot Thickens*
this is so bad it makes No Land Beyond look like a good joke
Seems like the Gardener became/created the Vex. Not only because of the "Vexed" part but also "I will make myself a rule in this game". Reminds you of anything ?
Darkness: *I am inevitable..*
I feel like this is the first reference, or rather origin to both the Sword and Bomb logic, what with the Gardener needing to add complexity, which is the ideal of Bomb logic. As opposed to the Sword logic being as simple and as little complexity
Wait... There's a Bomb logic, well wtf?
@@reya10276 If the sword logic is all about taking the most basic and simplest form to make oneself stronger, the bomb logic is that it takes the most complicated shape to accomplish the same end. Think triangle vs circle as far as how complex shapes go.
I think it more appropiate to say that the light is a force of change, and the darkness is counter change, or resists change.
The light seeks to change "the game", by getting involved. The role of the darkness is then set to offset that change, nullify it.
It seems like this final shape is basically the idea of the heat death of the universe. It makes sense why the Gardner would dislike this part of the game as they exist to create life and at the very end, there is nothing left to create. I think so far the darkness has been totally truthful.
The greatest trick the darkness could pull on us is convincing us the traveler is evil, or not our friend.
Alex Slayton don’t forget the traveler would have abandoned us like it did the fallen, if not for it being crippled
@@jt_the_damaja eh we still dont know the entire story, one hand we could say rasputin crippled the traveler and it was forced to stay and help us, the other story is it decided to stay and help us, still don't know yet. i like to think the traveler isnt at all what we think it is and that its just something completely different from what the vanguard and speaker say. In the original script for destiny the traveler was actually suppose to be evil, and out player was going to join up with some rogue guardian to stop it. Atleast thats what i read from the old leaked script that bungie scrapped.
Don’t know if anyone has noted yet but it seams to me like the gardener basically started playing chess with the winnower by creating the traveler. So the winnower created a power to combat it and play the game of shapes(chess)
The guardians are the first champion of the light to win the chess game and now the darkness sees it
Is it possible that the pattern they are referring to is the Vex? Since they are of the garden and the only issues they have with expanding through the universe is the paracausal entities that were "inserted" into the game. If not for the traveler and the darkness their conquest would probably be assured.
I like the fact that byf (like me btw) always tries to kill the worms
It would be interesting to see that the darkness is secretly in the right. True the light has brought gifts of power and revival but the darkness seems to wish for conflict to simply end. The light seems curious of what could happen next if one thing was changed, but we all know what curiosity did to the cat.