How Even Good Ranking Systems Warp Our Incentives
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
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Goodhart's law comes to mind when considering rank cheesing:
> When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure
I scrolled until I found this comment
I am so glad that you are not advocating a change to the system, but a change to the mindset.
“Garbage in, garbage out” as the saying goes. If your team is *choosing* to practice poorly and look for easy wins, then your skills will improve poorly as well.
This comment isn't really related to the video (haven't watched it yet) but it's a shout out and thank you to you and the work you do. I responded to someone in the splatoon subreddit who was on tilt, and a new player replied with some really negative phrases like "how do I get good when we're being spawncamped?"
I spent a half hour writing out a thoughtful reply, trying to pack it full of advice, and ended up linking not only your channel, but a good half dozen of your videos and shorts. You've taught me a lot as a Splatoon player and some lessons I can apply to my life more generally. If I had the spare cash right now I'd donate, but either way I want to thank you for myself and for the community for what you contribute. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. And please accept my IOU for a donation. 😅
Wow, at this point you've already made a donation by way of getting someone else to watch so many ads on my videos haha! You don't owe me anything, but I'm happy you find the work helpful enough to recommend :)
So, most of the issues in SendouQ are the exact same issues other competitive communities have all the time?
Honestly, I would think any place where people are ranked against each other.
honestly i feel like ranked (and matchmaking) as a concept is at odds with the learning process; because ranked + matchmaking provide extrinsic motivation (shiny rank) + dopamine (the fun you get from playing games) + there's goodhart's law, while the reasons gem talks about for learning are intrinsic; it's easier to just queue up for another match or to try to reach a rank because of that external motivation instead of cutting into your playtime to analyze a set or to just even put effort into learning from a game you played
also, i know some competitors don't believe the practice they get from challenging a higher/lower rank is worth it. the reasoning is they either get bodied too quickly to learn anything or it's too easy so they think they don't learn anything (or for the simple reason that it's not fun; both ways). anyway... no one is going to play with rank disparities often, if they do
i don't know if there's really an easy solution to this
maybe sendouq can force matches with another similarly ranked team once there's 4 players
like you don't have a choice in the matter, so... changing from an online ladder system to a matchmaking system
it would solve the dodging/elitism at least; and every x matches, maybe they'll increase the rank disparity and match a bronze with a diamond or something lol
there are other issues with sendouq beyond this problem too
it simply has a lower player pop, because the adoption rate among competitive players is low, which is a common issue with third party tools and services
even those who use it, it's not their main form of practice compared to like x battle or open or scrims
so... there simply isn't enough matches happening comparatively, which isn't great for a ranked system
there's no real easy way to report problematic behavior too from the site, and using the help desk channel while getting a response is like a 1/3 if even that, because that's how discord servers work (understaffed + voluntary work aka no obligation)
you get teams that are obviously dismissive and disrespectful of lower ranked players sometimes, in game + out of a game
so it's something i could see would hinder the growth and usage of the site in the future
I agree. I think the issue is more with the mindset in how we approach the resources we have.
I always felt like SendouQ was to get good practice & network with players. Something that is not afforded in SoloQ.
From my experience, it’s turned into some people dodging teams to maintain a rank. And the reason they wish to maintain their points sometimes is for the incentive to get into plus (which has been largely unused for a while).
The incentive is not to get better for yourself; but to get recognized as a good player by gaining access to a server. It’s unfortunate honestly.
Bro is that sendou q light mode 🗿
there's an older video where Chara roasts Gem for using Twitter light mode lol
Cry about it lmao
Man, this just reinforces how much competitive players scare me. Like I understand if the in game matchmaking system isn’t good for fans to make a third-party on-mad props by the way, that’s some next level resourcefulness and I applaud it-but the fact people are gaming the match making that is *specifically* catered to competitive players, intimidates me. Like, if the skill level didn’t already scare me away, the tryharding would. I already worry I’m a burden in regular turf wars as is
Gem, please use your fizzbangs
My problem with sendouq is also related to the players and not the system. Because theres so few players on at a given time, a lot of times I have to play against higher level teams, and as I'm iron most people don't want to team with me, so I often get teammates worse than me and play against teams with gold or platinum players, and while I improve, the system doesn't recognize this as my rank lowers
i feel this. i get dodged so often simply because i'm Iron, but y'know, if i don't get matches i don't get the practice i need (and can't get out of iron) and i remain just as bad as before!!!! c'mon!!!
@@MirrorYen2 I feel like I've improved a little but don't feel that way while playing cause my rank only lowers and I can compete ok against like some silver players but always have iron and sometimes bronze teammates
Thank you mister squid school this will really help me with the process of ranking up in mahjong soul 👍
This is why I personally just play with who and whatever. I play both up and down, it gives me better practice on all sorts of skill levels, my rank ignored almost entirely
As a brawl Stars player, hearing wintrading in a video about another game than bs caught me off guard
Honestly didn’t even know the site had a ranking system until this video, it now I want to try it out while keeping what you’ve said here in mind.
So long as players are allowed to be in charge of matchmaking, it is possible to "game" your rank. Even the split between solo ranked tickets and squad ranked open matches allows players to "skip" modes they don't want to play, or slowly roll points.
Splatoon 2's mode-specific ranks were better in this regard because that way it was a lot easier to track your progress in each mode.
Splatoon 3 has mode specific X Power, by the way
@@malcovich_games I need you to realize that in order for mode-specific power levels to be meaningful, they must span the entirety of an individual's improvement. If I'm A-Rank in Clams but S+2 in Zones, it is not good that Splatoon 3 lets me do Clam Blitz X Rank anyway. There's a huge blind spot on mode based Skill tracking as a result of the combined Anarchy Rank.
@@stevieie2837 I still dont understand why and how having a joined anarchy rank hurts separate X Ranks, but imho if the barrier to entry to X Battles werent so low and matchmaking wasnt so volatile, then games would feel much better as a result (i was at like 1800 x Power in tower or another mode, and i got matched with some1 at 1456 lol, thats too big of a difference in rank...), salmon also has kind of the same problem, i know that i can consistently clear out max risk, provided that i get decent players who know to paint the damn walls at round start and focus on the flyfish and stingers, and getting at least like 110 or 120 eggs per game, but instead i struggle at even barely meeting quota, and most of the time i cant even get to 100 eggs lol, then 1ce i manage to find a good team, surprise surprise games actually become slippery smooth..., ok i got off-topic lol but my point is i dont see how joined anarchy hurts x ranks, it does DEFINITELY hurt anarchy as a result, but even then 1ce u get into X Battles (if the matchmaking worked) it would still properly rank u and then put u against / with players of ur own skill, now in this case as ive said before, i was with someone that was of a much lower rank than me, i didnt look at their performance but i could tell that they werent as good as me from a few plays that theyve made, so basically, what im saying is:
That its not the joined anarchy ranks hurting X, but rather both of the matchmaking system being too volatile, and also the lower barrier to entry, or maybe its not even the lower barrier, but its definitely still the matchmaking being too volatile and preferring quick matching instead of just giving u a good match..., as shown by the backlines sometimes (if not often, thx to the incredibly flaweds matchmakings ranges system in place...) being completely 1-sided, like they had a charger on their team, and the longest range in my team was me with a Flingza 💀, like bruh Flingza even with the painting range CANNOT consistently deal with weapons who have even a slightly shorters hitbox range, simply because the damage of flingza at peak range is way too low, and TTK is incredibly long as a result (on the vertical fling im talking about, btw), its such an incredibly flawed system, i seriously hope that theyll go back to the separate ranks just like in splatoon 1 it was for the next game..., ok i got off-track again lol but ive said what i needed to say, i dont think x is bad because of anarchy, but for other reasons, and thats' it, really.
@@stevieie2837 they designed the splatoon 3 ranking system this way for engagement but this is probably a different topic altogether. X battles exist for the people who want to get rated. And people drop off when they don't advance.
Anyway if in your example the player avoided playing CB to advance more quickly in the letter ranks then that's just the same problem as this sendou q misuse issue. Only it will take them until X battles to find out that CB skills are lacking... Or never find out because it's totally possible to not play CB still haha
Main SedouQ problem about lower ranks is that team with unranked players have lowest ranks in summary, so you can't even closely predict opponent's skill. Many times there was a team thet had like bronze but there were top-500 or even top-10 players.
Low rank is so volatile. I’ll challenge a “bronze team” of 3 golds and an iron.
9:07 I disagree. SendouQ seems to be a volunteer thing, but it’s a tool. If it was a bad tool, it being made by volunteers doesn’t mean I should value the tool more. I just would have a different set of standards for the creators themselves because their situation is different.
Still, I agree with this video. Referencing your own work keeps things in perspective; this video is specifically about how a tool is used and misused, but there are a lot of opportunities to reinforce other concepts and bring it all back to getting better at Splatoon.
i don't understand what you're disagreeing with. gem said nothing about how to generally treat sendouQ in a hypothetical, only his opinion on it in its current state; your response only makes sense if you actually think it's a "bad tool."
@@durdleduc8520 I disagreed with Gem specifically saying that "it goes above and beyond what we could possibly expect of fan-created content". It wasn't as much about what I thought he was saying about SendouQ specifically. It was his implications of the quality we could expect from a general piece of fan-created content, by nature of it being fan-created, before we know anything else about it. If we're trying to find the good and bad tools, I don't think it starts with having preconceptions about it based on who made it.
I actually do think SendouQ in its current state is a good tool, and it stands as a good tool because of the reasons Gem lists before and after this quote. Those are the objective qualities of the tool, without regard to it being fan-created. I also want to be clear that the creators should absolutely get their deserved praise; this is laser-focused on evaluating the things themselves.
@@rbarua3368 the reason why it's fan-created content is important is because fans (typically) aren't a multi-billion dollar company. it is indeed an intense accomplishment to make anything at the scale of SendouQ without any expectation of getting anything back for it. don't devalue that.
@@durdleduc8520 Fair enough. I don’t want to remove the appreciation we should have for these volunteer efforts.
Gonna be honest my biggest problem with sendou is actually that i have to use an discord account to log in... and log in with my actual discord pw etc. if i could just make a normal account using an email i'd actually use sendou
just make a discord alt then.
At 9:41, it got me thinking. I’ve seen this season there’s been a lot of alternate accounts of players or Smurf accounts. I feel like when they are placed in low ranks or doing their unranked matches, these newer players are dealing with an unfortunate circumstance out of their control and makes these new players more likely to not continue sendouq when they keep getting stomped.
One thing that is hard to do is actually play with players who are higher rank on SendouQ. This season I haven't been to play it much due to life. But the little I have I usually end up stuck in Bronze or Silver since no one wants to fight more challenging teams.
There’s also a big difference in rank being interpreted as prescriptive, vs subscriptive. Rank does not indicate skill, but skill will certainly indicate rank.
Your rank doesn't matter
TEAM BUCKET LIST LETS GOOOOOOO
Silver+
Look inside
+1 server access.
I liked the video. I also commented
I play sendouq a lot and tbh I don’t think there’s a way to make a better system. Different people use it for too many different reasons and in a team of 4 at least one person probably wants to grind their way to the next rank while someone else is looking to challenge themselves, and even one more person might just be using it for fun. I don’t think there’s a way around it other than to just do your best and try to have fun
i disagree, i for 1 think that playing against too much of a disparity (or at least a recorded 1, like if fighting silvers as golds results 90% of the time or smth likes that in the golds teams winnings, then it should apply to thems too also) should level down incredibly hard points gained, or not get any points at all, id rather not prevent completely the possibility of playing against differently-ranked teams, but id rather prioritize balanced matches, those are the 1s where youll see much more of an improvement faster anyways, thats not to say that playing against way-higher ranked teams is completely useless, its definitely more useful than playing against lower-1s, lol, but the usefulness depends from person to person, if i looked at the replay and saw how they played vs how me and my teammates played, i might draw useful conclusions from it, but not everybody has the same mindset, and usually if u have this kind of mindset, it will reflect quickly in the ranks too imho.
Theres a reason why manual matching in chess doesnt give u rating, in chess, its the system choosing for u, i havent used sendou, so i cant be 100% sure, but from the sounds of it (Squid Schools aka Gem sayingsz that u can accept or refuse a match, and the match happens if both parties agrees) it sounds like the website gives u a suggestions, at most, and sure if theres not many players its still gotta give u a match to play, at some point, its better to play than to wait an eternity for a balanced match lol, but still u could basically rank-up all the way to the tops ranks aka leviathan if u so chose even if it took u an eternity to do lol, if such a thing was in splatoon then everybody would get to x rank if there wasnt any rankings-downs factored in at the ends of a seasons lol, oh and also, being able to customize your intentions canould also be good for to be improvingsz the ranking system, like being able to set if ur aim is to just rank-up (by challengingsz lower skills levels), or improve and not caring who u play against, idk how to implement a change based on these things..., but if standard elo systems are to go offs off of any indications..., then preventing players from gaining points at all if they intentionally challenged players too low (but still allowing for manually and unrated matches, btw) could do well to make ranks even more indicatives of a players real skill, team games sadly must implement custom variations of the elo algorythm, but imho using just a winrates-based solution is the guaranteedly slow, but steady way to determines some1s true ranks, with the only caveat aka downside beingsz that its slowers at doing so.
@@SimoneBellomonte I agree with you tbh, but I can see with almost absolute certainty that if any of those things were implemented then the queue would die within weeks. If there’s little to no incentive for higher ranked teams to face lower ranked teams, then it would take way too long for people to find matches and people would slowly stop joining. Allowing for rank manipulation leads to some frustration but it’s the only way to keep it sustainable imo
As someone on team same old I am genuinely pissed that you won that 10x battle when you clearly shouldn’t have
I've been stuck in silver this whole season and frequently play. I've lost more than won, but I'm usually challenging Gold teams. By doing this, I'm getting used to playing against tougher opponents which are now becoming my level.
Are you starting to do decently well against Gold or still a way too much offs?
I have a question
How does time affect the choice?
If getting a match takes time, does it make a physiological impact on fighting higher teams?
If getting matches were as fast as in S3, it would mean that the loss feels less bad since you can easily move on and regain loss points?
Yep, it can definitely factors in that as a result, but its not guaranteed, i wouldnt care about it, for example, because i have a lot of time on my hands and i could still do smth else in the meanwhiles lol.
I find sendouQ pretty toxic
Which parts do you think are like that?
It's sunk cost fallacy
I dont think that sunk cost is any relevant to the conversation.
Dang 😎
Man i just want to be at a rank where the people I'm queued with have a basic understanding of the game
Gem, why was the latest update on sendouq at 2:45 am? (1:03) Were you ignoring your sleep schedule or is it always like that?
he just like that
Some people are awake at hours that you aren't, that doesn't mean their sleep schedule is wrong or ignored.
So remove being able to view ranking scores until after matches, and only show your scores at the end of the season, with the initial score and ending score.
If it works, but it would be a trade-off. Those numbers are still useful.