The Grieving Brain with Mary-Frances O'Connor | Being Well Podcast
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- Опубликовано: 13 июн 2024
- There’s a lot of loss in the world these days, both in our individual lives and in our broader communities, and with those losses comes grief. Grief is one of the most challenging emotions to be with, and it can be difficult to offer generalized advice because everyone's experience of grief is profoundly unique.
On today’s episode of Being Well, I am joined by one of the world’s leading researchers on grief, Dr. Mary-Frances O’Connor, to help us better understand grief and grieving. We explore why grief is such a unique and intense emotion, how grief works in the brain, the problems with generalized models like the “five stages of grief,” and how we can learn to live with loss.
About Our Guest: Mary-Frances is a neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and associate professor of psychology at the University of Arizona, where she directs the Grief, Loss and Social Stress Lab, which investigates the effects of grief on the brain and the body. She’s also the author of the wonderful book The Grieving Brain: The Surprising Science of How We Learn from Love and Loss.
Key Topics:
0:00 Introduction and disclaimer
3:35 Mary-Frances’ personal background
6:55 Distinguishing grief from grieving
9:20 Self-criticism and overfocus on recovery
11:30 Changing how we frame grief as something to get over
13:15 Attachment and our neurological map
17:40 Prediction error
20:00 Complicated grief
25:40 Spiritual practice or a worldview that incorporates death
27:55 Is there a ‘normal’ grieving process?
35:25 Pathology and normal human experience
46:25 Neurological overview of grief in the brain
51:00 The Dual Process Model of Grief
54:20 Sometimes distraction is okay
57:20 Therapeutic practices and learning from grief
1:02:00 Grief and its relationship to love
1:04:50 Recap
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Who Am I: I'm Forrest, the co-author of Resilient (amzn.to/3iXLerD) and host of the Being Well Podcast (apple.co/38ufGG0). I'm making videos focused on simplifying psychology, mental health, and personal growth.
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I wasn’t sure if I wanted to listen to this talk as it’s a subject I avoid most of the time. I’m happy I did. It was a great deep thoughtful discussion. I never felt any anger when my husband passed away in his sleep beside me. I just felt a numbness; felt so confused and lost. He was only 59 and I was 50. Never expected him to die so young. I couldn’t get my head around it. 16 years on now, I am doing fine. It seemed to take a long time to heal. Thanks so much for this great message. 🙏🏻
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The book…”It’s ok that you’re not ok” by Megan Divine…is such perfection for dealing with lifelong emotion of grief. I get happy when I listen. It’s beautiful, grief is allowed and normal and lifelong. Hello world, stop denying it or making it abnormal.
Thanks for the rec. 💚💚
Thanks for the book recommendation. Added it to my list that will get to next
Lost our sons 25 years ago. The grief has never ended
In 2007 I lost my beloved cat of 15 years not quite unexpectedly but suddenly and as my animals are my everything I took it really poorly because I didn't have any tools to deal with it.
Fast forward to 5 weeks ago when I lost my beloved pup of 15 years. I read everything I could to try and prepare myself for the grief so I could handle it better and it has helped. Being incredibly grateful for having him, for being able to see it coming and for making an effort to be present with him has helped. However I call the grief over him The Obsidian Chasm because right now it's endless and I think it will be there in some form or another for a long, long time. And I'm at peace with that.
Grief is trauma and I don't hear people say that very often. It was traumatic to make the decision of euthanasia for my dog and the dying process itself was traumatic. Also leading up to the inevitable end I grieved for probably the last 2 years and I'm not sure if that kind of grieving has a specific name or not. I am wondering if it's possible to have a discussion on the trauma of grief and euthanasia in pets and how to cope with that.
This is only the third podcast of yours that I have listened to you but I am so happy to have found your channel and look forward to listening to more!
Putting my good boy to sleep in a few days. I feel this very much. I am making the right decision- and I'm still feeling traumatized by this impending loss. My only companion. My only source of actual joy. Helped me with some really struggles in recent years. Now its time to go. He was given a diagnosis on Feb 4. Feb 19 will be his last day. Not as sudden as sudden can be, but oof- it's still sudden.
@@davidmenke7552 The only thing that helped me when I knew my 13 year old dog was suffering is that her pain is over. The animal hospital and I did everything we could to prolong her life until we realized that it was time to say goodbye. So heartbreaking but so necessary.
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I am sad to read about your passing of your beloved cat and most recent your dog. They offer the most purest emotional connection I feel on this planet. As a caretaker of 7 previous Burmese cats(now only one remaining) and my Cream Goldie I treasure them dearly. My older 13yr old Burmese (2) boys were sadly used as pawns in a rather unpleasant marriage separation and are now not with me. The pain that has caused alone has been devastating as I know they would have received much better love and care with myself. For those who do not know that animals become Relationship Property( so incredibly cold and sterile) when legally settling a marriage and if a person chooses to weaponise them for their own unhealthy reasons and character it can be heartbreaking. I hope you have access to a pet still, either your own or a another’s… as they really are the light and joy in this rather trying world at times. 😯
I have been having prolonged grief for 3 years now and have been in therapy and quit my job. I absolutely bawled when you talked about how it’s hard to let yourself heal or be okay/happy? There is a heavy feeling of guilt when good emotions are felt, like it means I didn’t care enough or love enough? It’s awful, your mind takes the love and grief and turns it into something of a monster? I had ocd before the death and a lot, if not most,of my rituals centered around keeping this loved one alive. Deep down you know it’s inevitable. Now that they have passed my ocd ramped up and now revolve around many photos, ashes, belongings. Sometimes it’s comforting other times I feel insane but not enough to not do my routine.
I feel like it’s ruining my memories of them/us. Ugh, I hate it:(
Great podcast though, it was pretty eye opening for me❤️
It was 116 days ago that my mom suddenly died. This video is very helpful. Makes me realize that I will be okay.
Such a positive, gentle and compassionate interview and conversation. I wonder how this conversation could expand to cover people grieving over the prolonged loss of a parent to dementia, watching them suffer physically and mentally over years, seeing their personhood disappear, and grieving the loss of connection even though they are still alive. Also wishing my suffering from watching my Mum suffering would end so the grieving process could begin to resolve, and the guilt for even wanting that.
I also would like to hear more on complex grief, where families have been disfunctional yet there is still grief, mixed with relief, anger, hatred, disappointment and all the pain of coping as a child without resources, knowledge and support.
How very lucky are those people who are grieving the loss of such tender loving experiences with partners, to have had those special relationships for even part of their lives. Not everyone has that special experience of love.
Grief is love and loss of love.
This was fascinating... full of incredibly useful insights into grief and grieving. Thank you Forrest, and Mary-Frances O'Connor!👍
Big props to Forrest, the depth and questions -and quality of voice and sound. A pleasure to listen
A perfect man❤
i have the book 'the grieving brain' but have yet to read it. I will now after listening to this. I wish Ms. O'Conner had addressed the loss of a child. To me, this is worse than losing a spouse as a child is part of you. My daughter was murdered, given an OD on purpose to get rid of her. Being bi-polar contributed to her associating with the wrong crowd & self-medicating. Nevertheless, as her mother who devoted 34 years to her upbringing & care, even as an adult, I was totally shocked that this happened, especially the way it did. At first, I was numb, blank, just going thru the motions of planning her death arrangements. Then I became extremely angry which I stayed during the next 1 1/2 years. The anger helped me get thru the process of cleaning out her house & making it ready for sale. The anger was my fuel, so to speak. My husband went in the opposite direction of extreme depression with suppressed rage, with thoughts of getting justice against those involved. We often clashed as we didn't understand each other. I even asked for a divorce. (didn't happen) My family was no help in understanding me. When I wanted to talk about how I felt, I was told to get over it, to stop talking that way as I was upsetting them. They just wanted to enjoy their life as if I didn't matter. I have since found out that I don't. Even my friends didn't call me as they didn't know what to say. (Stupid reason). I have read several books & watched videos of psych doctors in order to understand myself & to cope. After 2 years I am still broken. The depression phase has set in, and I often have breakdown moments. Staying busy helps me forget temporarily. I can't look at her pictures as it's too painful. I have read Ms Kubler-Ross's books and they make a lot of sense. I doubt I will get to the acceptance & peace stage. Maybe you can research parents who have lost children and see how they cope. Thanks
I'm so sorry to see your story and all of the circumstances which complicate your ability to grieve a daughter who as you said is a part of you. I hope you are getting support, if you aren't you can reach out to your local hospice and you should be able to access bereavement support at no cost to you. Practice gentle self-compassion. Kind thoughts.
Dear Vintage GQ. I am so sorry for your loss. It is terrible, the worst loss of all. Yes, people can be sh**ty, without a doubt. I think such a loss, such pain only gets some way knitted into your being, it’s not ever that it can leave. I hear your fierce momma love for your daughter. xxxx
@@melliecrann-gaoth4789 Thank you for your condolences. Yes, I loved her more than anybody. She didn't seem to care, unfortunately. But then again, having a broken brain (mental illness) caused her to have little to no empathy. Very common today.
I am so sorry for your loss, and especially for the very tragic circumstances. I experienced a similar loss when my son passed away 2 years ago at the age of 41. He was addicted to alcohol and prescribed medication. I was so heartbroken that my cancer returned and then I knew I needed to understand why and how he died so that I could begin to accept it and begin grieving, especially as he has two beautiful young children. I discovered Dr Gabor Mate and bought his book ‘In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts’. I read it several times, and also listened to any of his talks that I could find on RUclips. The best one is over 4 hours long and I cried as I listened, he is so compassionate and so understanding, all the things I wanted for my son. Understanding that his addiction was not a choice, neither was it a disease, really helped to ease my guilt that I was unable to save him. I was very angry before that, blaming the system that had totally failed him. I’m not angry now, no one is to blame, I am just sad some days, but most days I am so happy to be here for my grandchildren and will do all I can to break the cycle of addiction in our family. Your daughter used drugs to soothe pain from whatever inner conflict she experienced and that only she knew about. It sounds like she was a very sensitive person, as my son was, and it is a very tough world for sensitive people. Listen also to Forrest’s recent podcast where he and Rick have a beautiful and very powerful conversation with Dr Gabor Mate. I found it really soothing, and also learned even more about the true nature of addiction, and can now defend my son and any other person struggling with any addiction in a more enlightened and informed way. Their deaths and all deaths related to addiction are waking us up to the truth about this tragic modern day scourge and we can only hope that we will be able to make the changes that so desperately need to be made to create a more hopeful future for all.
I’m so, so sorry 💔 I’ve heard great things about the Helping Parents Heal organization. You may want to check them out ❤️
Thank you sooo much for this conversation. It was so comforting for me. I’m dealing with a hard break up, and a lot of this felt relevant for me, even though no one’s died (thankfully). Much love
I'm glad to hear that, and totally agree that there are many forms of loss that can activate intense grief.
This explains a lot. I woke up this morning listening to this as I fell asleep with youtube still playing. I need this and it’s just miraculously served. I wouldn’t have choose this video myself as I’m not familiar with both the topic and the guest speaker. Thanks 🙏
A bit of my story, I lost my father to cancer in 2017, the following week my boyfriend with whom we’ve had some serious talk about marriage broke up with me after ghosting me after dad got his diagnosis. I’ve been feeling numb and at the same time feeling a great sense of sadness and loss. Less than two years later my brother passed away from an accident. My mother has BPD/NPD kind of mental/emotional disturbance which really made life and family life felt like hell on earth. Only in the past couple of years I learned about my mother’s personality disorder and how her toxicity has been affecting me which leads to more griefs. I’ve been working with a therapist and it has been life saving. I’m not suicidal but I’ve lost that willingness to live life to the fullest, I’ve lost joy, peace and really hating my mother for what she did to her own family. Only recently I got reminded to let myself grief over those losses. Thanks for bringing this topic out in the open.
This is helping me since I lost my husband 14 months ago. I was numb for long time and I can't even remember what I did or what I have said someting to somebody. I was lucky I had trusted friends who were there observing me and they knew I was not all there for few months.
I ordered book today on The Grieving Brain and I am looking forward to receiving it.
This was a great podcast, and I learned quite a bit! A follow up podcast or subject might be grief that is associated with the loss of someone who is still alive. Especially as it pertains to estrangement, grandchildren from their grandparents and the effects on each of these age groups.
A fantastic heartfelt deep dive Forest! Very insightful and steeped in hope and compassion.
Always interested to hear about grief - such a challenging emotion for sure. Often an emotion we try to run away from or get rid of - but an emotion we need to acknowledge and move through
Great show ❤ needed this! Lost my 1st dog months ago who was my son! Yep, I’m a dog mom🐾❤️
Great conversation. What Zi would say about EKR’s work however is YES, she was a trail blazers & much more is known now. However, I’ve read all of EKR’s books and she 1) has always said the 5 stages are often NOT linear … a person can go back, forth, skip & go back again …makes perfect sense. 2) EKR’s subjects weren’t, for the most part, people left behind after one dies - but she interviewed and spoke to and of the actual dying process. Her 1st and more famous book is called “On Death and Dying”. Her interviews with people who were dying were amazing. Often JUST allowing a person to talk, and be HEARD - on their time line.
Thanks for this work - I am one of those who are spiritual and, although don’t want to lose a loved one or die prematurely myself .. death is part of the package of life/living. I try to live, learn everyday to fulfill my soul journey, to have done my best when I get to the end of my life. I will, with love, pass the baton that is my soul on to whoever/whatever physical vessel it inhabits next, hoping it’s journey will be a little LESS tumultuous than mine - because of the learning, healing, and growing i have done. 💪💓🎉
Thank you for saying all of this. It is important.
I lost my best friend of 41 years two years ago. She was murdered by her son. Her 21 yr old daughter found her. It has been such a difficult process for us all. It never ends with court etc.
I appreciated the background of kindness and tenderness around this sensitive and painful topic. I am missing my husband of 40 years. I will always miss my sweetheart and yet, I know he would be proud of me that I decided to find a way forward even when I have no idea at times what that looks like.
Thank you for this compassionate and information filled conversation ❤️
Rich, deep, descriptive exploration of the phenomenon grief / grieving. Found myself not liking the word "disorder" since I believe intelligence is always operating, even amidst extreme situations and/or intense responses that are or become prolonged. People have complex current circumstances on top of complex conditioned histories that affect the loss / grief process and/or have their own timeline or pace to resolve or come to terms with. I believe sanity is operating even amidst or in response to prolonged reactions that get labeled "disorders." Also good to note: many counselors, therapists, psychologists, psychiatrists, can have years of Hospice experience and/or do have a lot of experience and training in Grief, even if not originally provided in their initial MA or PhD clinical psych training. Great discussion with incredibly helpful and "normalizing" information about a core part of the human experience, Grief.
That was so insightful and truly helpful! You and your Father do such important work which has truly enriched my life for the better. Thank you & best wishes 🙏🏻✨
The Grieving brain was a very helpful book for me. To understand what my brain is doing these days of deep grief gives me a sense of comfort.
I grew up in the same tiny town as Mary-Frances. I wish I'd known her better.
I really love this episode. I've experienced great losses and although there's always more joy to experience in life, grief comes & goes & shows up in sometimes expected & unexpected ways. I liked the example you gave about attending your sister's wedding soon but knowing grief will also be present even though celebrating a joyous occasion.
And I also appreciated the conversation distinguishing the difference between grief and depression.
Thank you for handling this tough topic with care. Since 2018 my family has been decimated by deaths. From the time my beloved father passed away in 2018 to now, my 13 y.o. English Bulldog died, then a precious couple who spent years mentoring me and my husband. Then in 2020 my big brother, who was one of my best friends, died from ulcerative colitis.
In 2021 after 28 years of marriage my Lover died suddenly and unexpectedly. I am devastated and so are my children.
I am listening to this program after leaving my childhood home, where my big sister lives with her daughter's family. I was there to say my a final goodbye before she passes away on hospice.
I'm not sure how much more my fragile heart can take.
I feel completely untethered. 💔
I have grieved and have helped others with grief. Excellent interview
Hi Forrest and Mary Frances, a really delicate and warm approach to a heavy and sorrowful topic. Really enjoyed Mary Frances compassionate and thoughtful connection in this topic. She has a very warm approach that leaves the viewer feeling cared for. I can imagine she is a very good Clinician. … as science can sometimes seem dry and clipped. This is my 2nd viewing , well done and most beneficial for any person who will … with no doubt go on this roller coaster of emotion at some stage in their life. 😯
I love that you do a summary at the end. Very helpful.
Thank you for your research and sharing what you've learned about what our brains are doing in grief. That's helpful . When I hear you speak about what to do about it, I 'd like to offer that you check what you can know if you haven't lived it, especially about secondary & invisible losses. For example, a widow/er might hesitate to go out because of economic losses and they can no longer afford the lobster, and/or feel abandoned and marginalized by these people who were friends, but when things got hard, were unskilled at best about how to support, wouldn't or couldn't learn, and could in their privilege offer lobster dinners and step out of the rest, perhaps in the name of giving the griever "space". And maybe the griever is experiencing a profound change in their own understanding of justice and doesn't want to lose their friends, but their friends won't look at it because it's too painful for them. Still so appreciate your effort to educate us all. As you do, please consider at least mentioning the importance of community care & advocacy (not just self care & advocacy), and the ways capitalism, privilege, racism, misogyny, and gender discrimination play in grief and whether we heal or not. Thanks.
It definitely depends on what genuine support you have remaining.
Just wonderful. What a great interview. Conducted with such intelligence and sensitivity and the guest is so knowledgeable. Helpful. Thank you.
Thank you so much for this episode.
Mahalo for the tenderness and the timing.
Absolutely brilliant!.... both of you, thank you ❤
You’re such a great host!!!!❤❤❤❤
This is simply an amazing talk ❤
I sooooo love the rationale for "the average person/ XP doesn't exist". I'm at the half of this video and already love it!
This was an excellent conversation. Thank you so very much
I grieved the loss of my grandma for 20 years. I was deeply depressed for 20 years. I was fifteen. It ruined my life.
So sorry for your loss
If you don’t experience grief there might be something wrong, in my opinion. Grief, hello, makes sense. It is psychologically rewarding to grieve. I can see how someone might get addicted to it. Great great interview 👏🏽
Brilliant discussion thank you ❤
This was beautiful ❤️
Thank you. ❤
THANK YOU ❤
great podcast
95 years old. A los s 7 years ago which I blanked out at the time. Is here now,, immense grief. Is that normal!
After the passing of my Mom in January no one in the family talked about her loss for several months. I wanted to talk about it with them but the opportunity just didn’t seem to come along.
This may seem strange but I can't stop going over the past. My son nearly died when he was 4. We got him to hospital just in time. It could have been so different. Makes one realize how fragile life is.
I'm stressed because I just escaped death when a huge red gum crashed onto my house. I had to run for my life
I could be dead now.
Omg!! What an incredible dialogue and discussion 🙏🙏🙏🙏
Thank you for the beautiful explanation grounded in compassion and wisdom and intelligence as well as science. Knowing that people with *attachment disorders* and people *without sufficient social support* fall prey to complicated grief is very helpful for all of us.
There are so many questions to ask
Does a person with avoidant attachment- who avoids due to being victim of abuse during their vulnerable developmental stages, do they experience complicated grief-or just relief? Or do avoidantly attached people grieve for the loss of the life prior to an X or Y or Z (abuse or accident) experience?
In other words, i long or yearn for a time prior to incident X. That feels exactly to be what Dr Mary Frances is describing. Can we therefore grieve not exclusively for a person but for a time before event X and is that not grief? Exactly grief.
Another related question then is do people with avoidant attachment grieve for a life or time without abuse or the absence of such a time? Wheras the anxiously attached person grieves for the loss of a person with whom they did not finish their relationship from their POV. If the anxiously attached person needs attention, their grief is the inability to further connect. That seems to be what complicated grief is about for the anxiously attached. No more direct contact. Wheras avoidantly attached among us may grieve for a long lost era of time before abuse or other tragedies such as accidents that were out of our control but that we yearn to have not occurred.
Thanks you were both lovely, had to give my ragdollcat away, he was pooing in the hallway of my building because I let him outside, you are supposed to have them inside all the time I could'nt do that, a week ago, I am very depressed etc.❤
what about when you develip severe anxiety/depression when the most important person in your life dies..
I have a friend who is caring for a very sick parent, and I worry about if she will be okay after the loss. Unfortunately she lives in another country, so I cannot fysically be there as much for her as I’d like to. I wish I could find a way to help her build a type of net to catch her when her parent passes away, but she is so busy with caring for them that when I make suggestions she just cannot take more on. Does anyone know if there is anything written about this idea of building yourself a safe place to land after a death, especially when you know it’s coming? Thank you
i just most wonderful person 4 months ago to parkinsons 24 years of happiness it is kiiling the loss of some who is love of your life
how do you find a grief counselor that uses this science?
If she actually understood kubler Ross's work she would understand that right off the bat they never tried to pass it off as linear in any fashion.
Insightful. Way too many commercials.
You're right, they were auto generated by youtube. I've updated them, should be more reasonable.
Really disliked this. As someone who lost a beloved pet, been preparing it with Frank Ostaseski's shared wisdom,
This was so intellectual, misdirecting from the raw experience of grief and Life, I had to watch the 2nd half on 1.5x speed.
Sorry, did not enjoy this and found it very shallow, with very few relevant conceptualizations, using technical language to sound more complex than what it really is. "maps of attachment", really?
this grief researcher guru doctorate even says therapists and whoever have zero training in grief and often may not have even processed their own
-- which is true, but I don't think that grief researcher would be any comforting to be around in the midst of loss so early.
kinda made me look down at them with bit of, disgust at their naivety and lack of wisdom
like the fact you can clearly tell she was Compartmentalizing Grief, away from the bigger picture itself of Life and Existence and meaning!!!
"heuh I'm good at cognitive empathy without emotional empathy" which is on par with psychopaths.
or
"neuroimaging says lots and many parts of the brain are firing during grief".
no duh. so deep.
and how does that equate to science understanding so much more about grief than it did 3 decades ago?
She was saying fantastic things but talking about grief and smiling in this way made me uncomfortable, as a person who is undergoing great loss (lost 5 family members within 15 months).
Thats her manner of speaking. Some people, especially very intelligent academics, communicate this way. She reminds me of Pinker who also has great knowledge and shares it eloquently while smiling in seemingly strange places. Humans communicate in different ways.
"dealing with lifelong emotion of grief" Imagine what Palestinians have endured ? Unrelenting Trauma/Grief
Forrest's responses were not my cup of tea.