Medieval Chinese Arming Sword? The LK Chen Grand Marshal Jian Review
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- Опубликовано: 21 сен 2024
- Looking at the Ming Dynasty jian, here replicated in the form of the Grand Marshal by LK Chen ( lkchensword.co... ).
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Hi Matt! My old Sifu was asked about the difference between Jian points, and he responded that there’s no definitive answer, but that martial arts folklore claims they are from two different styles of swordsmanship schools. The sharper stabbing point is called “the soldiers tip“ while the rounded point is often called “ The scholars tip“. From what I recall they differ because of differing and competing schools of swordsmanship. The soldiers point seems to have stemmed from more “hard” schools while the scholars point apparently stems from “soft” schools. The former emphasize aggressive lethal thrusts, while the latter emphasized disabling draw cuts on the tendons and vulnerable muscle bundles.
You are spot on however with your example of using the extended hilt and pommel to catch and hook an enemies weapon or arm. I was taught to use the hilt and pommel to hook the wrist of an enemy on a counter thrust, and drag them back upon the recovery. It was a situational trick, and I was never very good with it, but I saw it demonstrated with ease and thought it was an interesting use of the long grip and pommel.
Fantastic information!
I also learned that it was considered "elegant" and significant to disable the enemy with small cuts at the tendons and muscles. So the theory with the different schools sounds very plausible to me.
So, the difference is basically "do you want your opponent maimed or killed"?
Came here to say this - it may be a retroactive folk explanation from only a few centuries ago but this is a case where I don't think it's unlikely to be an accurate oral tradition. I'll also add that there may have been a law or tradition which would prevent the use of the soldier's point for dueling; it's very normal even in dueling cultures for lethal duels to be discouraged. Even though Matt observes it to not feel like a dueling sword, this kind of effect (not killing over a slight that doesn't deserve killing) is still a common thought, and the mindset can be seen in Chinese martial fiction as well even though there's not a definite historical source that I know of.
It's an interesting idea, but surely in reality duelling would emphasize thrusting and military design would emphasize cutting. That's very evident comparing the jian and the dao or different jian over time.
16:30 "Seabound Competitiveness" is my new favorite euphemism for piracy
Internet bound competitiveness.
A wild guess; if the fine tip was damaged, sometimes somebody, with little knowledge, ground it, fast and rough, into a useful shape :-)
Personal experience there my man?
Myself as well haha
@@MrPlainsflyer fortunately not with swords, but there might have been a few knives over the years...
I'm not a expert on Chinese swords, but I do have some experience with them, and own quite a few. The long grips definitely are there for versatility in use. It is very common in Chinese martial arts to use a sword one handed, but then to supplement certain moves with two hands. For example quickly switching to a two handed grip to give extra leverage in a parry or guard. The extra grip length is used to facilitate different grip styles and positions, this is shown in manuscripts for different Chinese weapons.
Many Chinese swords have even much longer grips than this Jian; this allows you to move your hand quickly to provide more speed, or more leverage in a strike, and to get extra reach, all while providing a counter balance. This is very noticeable on Chinese Dadao swords. Near the guard they can be wielded one handed, near the pommel ring end you not only increase reach but massively increase leverage and therefore force in a strike, but is much slower and heavier to wield. While allowing you to use both one handed and two handed grips interchangeably in a fight is something that is quite useful for a sidearm that can be used with or without a shield.
Fascinating discussion, love the video! I finished my doctorate in Ming history, though not specifically in this area. I recall reading during my comprehensive exams that the jian fell out of common use sometime during or after the Three Kingdoms era, and largely remained ceremonial after that. It was a common ceremonial and scholarly weapon during the Ming as an artifact intended to call back to antiquity. This was a development that partly arose because scholars, gentry, generals, and statesmen viewed the jian as distinctly Han, and therefore its (ceremonial) prevalence affirmed Han rule over China following the collapse of the Mongol empire. I did not get the impression it saw much battlefield use, though there must have been some occasions where it did.
Ming weaponry was, as you observed, a product of circumstance. Dao, long pole weapons, and mobile anti-personnel artillery were very common on the northern frontier to defend against Mongol incursion. When piracy became an issue in the later Ming, coastal commanders started training their soldiers in weapons that closely resembled Japanese katana. The third major armed threat was domestic unrest, the response to which did not usually call for much more than the long pole and dao.
Ming (and by extension Chinese) military history is an interesting topic because we often overlook that tactical and material developments in China were regional, in response to wildly varying threats and contests, in very different terrain, operating in very different logistical environments. Solving the logistical challenges of operating large armies in and near the steppe was a perennial problem for Chinese states.
I remember Thegnthrand channel testing tip cutting with viking style, swords that had a more rounded tip similar to this, though not quite as round. You can get some incredible cutting power using the tip with purpose and indeed if my memory is correct, they were even able to cut mail to an impressive degree using that technique. Killing cuts? Probably not but certainly wounding cuts. I have to think that at a time when lamellar armour styles were so popular, cutting leather binding cords was probably quite handy and perhaps much easier with a tip in this configuration.
It is the Ming period (the age of the guns) so Brigandine and thick cotton armours are ubiquitous.
This weapon should serve well enough for an arming sword against such targets.
If more heavily armoured troops came along (i.e lamellar), then that is when the 锏, 锤, 鞭 & 斧 come into play.
Cutting mail to an impressive degree? That’s insane! Now I have to watch!
Matt, Scott Rodell noted recently that primary sources only show Jian with pointed tips, while examples of rounded tipped blades tend to also be dull on the edges, suggesting the tips have been worn away. Here’s his post on the topic, from a few days before your video:
Recently there has been an assertion that Ming Jian had rounded tips. This suggestion does not appear to be supported by the primary source material. Unfortunately, sometimes when a comment like this is made, it is accepted and passed on without scrutiny.
If we looks at Ming period manuals and encyclopedias (such as the above illustration from the Wu Bei Zhi 武備志), we find that all jian are depicted with pointed, sharp tips. They are not depicted with rounded tips.
While it is true that some surviving examples of Ming Jian have rounded tips, it is quite unlikely they were forged or polished this way in period. It should be noted that these same jian whose tips have become rounded with time also have dull edges. Are we to assume from this that not only were the tips standardly a dull round shape, but the edges were also standardly dull alone the entire edge. Clearly such a suggestion suffers from a lack of common sense.
@ET Hardcorgamer But the same is true of the dull edges, isn’t it? Also, we don’t know how the surviving Ming Jian were used or handled in the almost 400 years since the Ming fell.
I'm definitely not an expert, but I would conjecture that a sharper one would have been sharpened potentially after the time period where it was in use. If they've been sharpened and used later they might have been altered.
How many swords from 500+ years ago that haven't been touched in 500 years are discovered sharp?
It may have been mentioned below already but Scott Rodell took an issue with this rounded tip. I believe his point was that most ming jian should have triangular pointed tips, and that most rounded off ones were later modifications.
If Scott says it, I'm inclined to believe it. He knows his Jians.
I dont know exactly why some of Jian swords had rounded and some pointed ends, only true master of such sword with actual practical experience would probably can tell for sure. But I could guess that first, it seems did not make much difference (since you can find either design). Second it is entirely possible that your guess is also partially correct - that rounded end may allow to 'extend' the cutting edge, considering that aside from 'hacking' the Jian was more often used for 'slicing', pulling the blade against the opponents body in a continuous smooth manner. Third, it could also be a matter of pointed end more easily braking and getting blunted, particularly when hitting armor. The speculation about pommel use is just that - a speculation. Pommel mainly was designed for weight balancing, for reliability of the grip and later as additional beautification of the sword. It sure had use as a striking point, as well, particularly in the moments when there is no time for drawing the sword completely and in close combat, but that was not a main purpose. (BTW, you have a terrible skill in handling Jian, its not an axe after all :-) ). But while Jian was called a 'gentlemen weapon' it never meant it was not a combat sword not used by military. Jian simply was more difficult to master to be efficient weapon than for example a Dao or Dian spear, which could be deadly without learning much skill. It was perceived as such as requiring more intelligence and more sophistication than a more simpleton soldiers weapons. Hence a status symbol as weapon of a 'noble man'.
Ha, I'd like to see you spar against Matt and then say that. Matt knows how to use a weapon as a weapon, not a dancing accroutement.
Maybe they realized that rounded points were good enough for stabbing, and pointed ones dulled quicker / broke on the point because the point is thin and weak.
Sea bound competitiveness. That is AWESOME.
I love these Chinese swords. They're all beautiful.
chinese swords are the best looking swords in my opinion. I love seeing them.
In LK's current catalogue, it is difficult to find a sword that beats out the White Serpent Jian.
When you said "Chinese Arming sword" I couldn't help but think of the sword on that French knight's funeral effigy. I think it may have been a middle-eastern bazaar pickup but with some feature the knight thought was super-cool, like a jade grip or pommel.
My 2 cents towards the rounded tip vs pointed tip. I believe this is due to the preference of the Jian’s master, depends on the style of sword fighting style the sword owner was used to. Chinese Jian is not meant for hard cutting, instead it is meant for quick vital slices on major arteries. A very common Chinese Jian technique is called 抹 (to “wipe”) which is a very small horizontal wiping motion utilizes particular the very tip of the sword to the neck. Does not require a lot of power, but more so accuracy and a sharp tip. I’d say a round tip would be very useful in the “wipe” case.
Pointed tip may be more advantageous for those who like to use their Jian for thrusting.
This was my thought on the 2 different tips in a way.
Individuals tend to have a preference for using weapons in a certain way, that is a style of fighting.
Some would have found a rounded tip suited their style and intent to a greater degree than a pointed tip, and vice-versa.
'Remember its not what the weapon does to the wood, but what the wood does to the weapon' Nice Forged in Fire reference there Matt! ;)
It actually looked painful to see that sword getting abused by wood. This reminded me of forged in fire right away.
This sword's whole design seems like an interesting balance of 'sturdy' and 'elegant', with neither consideration overriding the other.
A quick guess at the rounded tip: for a battlefield weapon that's potentially going up against heavier shields and pole weapons, perhaps the rounded tip is simply more durable? A finer point might be at greater risk of bending or breaking, which could compromise the weapon as a whole.
For the rounded vs pointed sword debate, Roman cavalry spathas were rounded because they felt there was a danger of accidentally stabbing themselves or their horses with pointy swords. Infantry spathas (which would have been mostly Celtic) were pointed.
The ChineseLongsword channel has videos interpreting a Ming dynasty manual for Jian usage, if anyone is interested. The Jian featured in the manual is explicitly two handed, and much longer, if the drawings are believed to roughly indicate scale.
The Lingzhi mushroom is associated with all sorts of divine and immortal connotations since the Han dynasty. Even comes in the form of Lingzhi enhanced coffee granules! This model is essentially a ceremonial version of the Gale Wind as LK Chen mused on in his side by side cutting comparison.
My initial reaction upon hearing the thing about rounded tips is that they're an artefact of the tip breaking off. I think the idea of Survivor's Bias comes into play here.
Recently there's been a lot of talk reminding folks that swords are not indestructible; they break, just like any other weapon. But not all damage is catastrophic, I would think - but most people think of catastrophic breakage when we talk about broken weapons. And indeed we've always stressed that the tips are often the most vulnerable part of any weapon, the most prone to breakage, which is why long swords required so much expertise to make. But what happens when the sword is still usable, if only "mostly" intact? Given the difficulty of tempering, especially where differential hardening is a thing, I doubt it would even be possible to modify a broken sword with a soft core to be pointed again. Even with homogeneous steel I'd imagine it was quite the undertaking at a time when quality control wasn't what we're used to.
So if you had a mostly usable blade that's mainly for cutting anyway and you didn't want to throw it away - which makes sense given the times, at that time people were not nearly so given to trash things as they are today - then I feel like it makes some sense that you could sharpen the point to another cutting edge.
And then over time archeologists and scholars and martial artists find these weapons and create a mythology around rounded tips.
That's not to say nobody ever made rounded tips on purpose, after all there's the executioners' swords, but....it rather seems to defeat the purpose on all but a dedicated chopper, which a jian is not.
That's my thoughts. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but I figure it's at least plausible.
It might be like how some later period samurai could not afford to maintain their equipment. Officers might have to fund their own equipment maintenance, and if they find themselves almost never ever drawing their blades, many an impoverished officers might just have ground down a broken tip. Or just long campaigning years between refits. The tip-less sword survives because it got retired and kept in the family storage.
The possible reasons might be endless. Economic, metal availability, smith availability, etc.
Your movement in the cutting footage combined with that easy fancy music got me 😂
Greetings Mr Easton! The sword in which you are reviewing places a greater emphasis on chopping than stabbing. It reminds me of the difference between the Roman Gladius and espatha. The former having greater chopping power and the later greater stabbing. To conclude it all depended on battle filed conditions.
There are indeed 2 types of jian(more actually) the pointed one has it's blade balance closer to the handle for defter movement(think rapier) and the other often sporting a rounder tip has it's balance point further up the blade and has a heavier swing. Both types are used for both thrust and slash but focus on one more.
I remember that Chinese Martial Weapons are put into two categories: living weapons and dead weapons. Living weapons should be in constant motion with each action flowing into the next. The dead weapons have motions that stop or pause. Dao are dead weapons and Jian are living weapons. Living weapons are categorized as high mastery/difficulty weapons and everyone started with dead weapons in the beginning. Also in Tai Chi, a long tassel is an integral part of balancing the sword.
Ironic that in the west, the sabre would be the living weapon and the straight sword would be the dead weapon.
What’s crazy is the gale wind outperforms this one and this one performs amazingly.
in late roman empire, swords from cavalary was rounded to not injure the horses (I saw in some Metatron video, if I recall correctly)
Yes ive seen the same, specifically the spatha, its a rather bizzare reasoning tho, the spatha sheat wasnt open ended and if you swing it, it will still hurt the horse, but idk.
Note: i. Think the rounded tip allows for better slashing from horseback
Wouldn’t a rounded edge at the end make it cut more deeply if you are above your enemies
Speculation: Rounded tips were once pointed and bent or broke, then the tip was sharpened to a round rather than reshaping the blade taper and shortening the blade entirely.
That theory doesn't really hold up imo.
There are too many surviving Jian of that era that were forged with rounded sword tips and bore no signs of battle damage (Micro-fractures in the metal etc.).
If you look at pristine examples that never saw battle (i.e The Yongle Emperor Jian), they also have rounded tips
@@possumsam2189 perhaps it started that way? And sure grinding the tip would remove the signs of localised damage?
Yeah that seems to be the case. There really isn't much of any evidence of rounded tips.
The cases where they have rounded tips are swords that have been over polished. Chinese Jian tend to have a really abrupt taper toward the end which means they quickly become round when over polished or when a nick near the tip needs to be ground out.
Not really sure why Yongle's Jian would be referenced here since it's not even a Chinese style Jian. But it's a great example as you can see clearly that it was a Jian with an abrupt almost "> " shaped taper at the tip that was rounded somewhat through over polishing over the years. The blade shows pitting and signs of major corrosion and was heavily ground down to get those out.
I was just recently gifted one of these by an 87 year old neighbor, who was gifted it in China in his 30,s while teaching there . . I've been getting a feel of my own .
I started to wonder myself as to the tip ? What it " feels " like in my hand . With the weight of the blade , and the heft of the tip , I got to contemplating what a full strike from this would do to a helmet worn in that era ? .. by feel , it feels like it . What do you think?
" ps; neighbor placed the sword in his basement rafters soon as he got home to hide from his kids " I guess not even his grandchildren even knew he had this . Been in his basement rafters since then .
Was quite surprised that the edges are rather , well , dam sharp.
Quite a shock truthfully
Spade tips are beautiful, which is sometimes enough
Jian are intended for intermittent two handed usage. There are a number of points in the forms when the hands come together. Some of these are options for adding in a second hand for the cut. There were generals/warlords that used the jian as their primary weapon (Li Jin Ling was one of these). If you look at the forms they propagated, you will find methods suited to battlefield use. San Cai Jian was developed as a collaboration between Li Jin Ling and Sun Lu Tang. Suns version is in their family Taijiquan. Li Jin Lings is the San Cai Jian which was widely propagated in northern China during the warlord period.
I think I heard somewhere that the Jian was often referred to as "the gentleman's weapon" or "the scholar's weapon." I can't remember which, exactly. Perhaps they were interchangeable.
Maybe the tip was left off for cavalry purposes? Roman cavalry spathas usually had rounded tips to them compared to their infantry counterpart, perhaps the same thing is going on here?
"... But nevertheless: I have no DAOt that this could function..."
I want to get this sword, it looks like an absolute pleasure to wield. If I do, I'll defo be grinding out that tip to a SHARPE POINTE, SHARPE
This is absolutely only what I have heard, but here goes.
Rounded edge Jian are carried by calvary and often are northern in origin, where the land was flatter and Calvert was more effective. The idea was that a general weilding a Jian was less likely to peirce his own horse.
In the south there were more mountains and everything was closer, so Calvery fighting was less common. So commanders weilding Jian were less worried about it and thrusting was more common than slashing from horseback.
Once again, this is only hearsay and I have only word of mouth to go off of.
cavalry. IF you mean military dudes on horses
You touched on this matt, but perhaps it's for a similar reason that some Sabres have hatchet tips, to cut further out on the blade?
pretty simple, it has rounded point because Jian is a decorative "weapon". It was usually a great honor for a general or governor to carry a sword to the imperial palace during morning meeting, so it was not meant to kill people but to defend or to show off status. On the other hand, soldiers usually used the "Dao", such as “jingyiwei” which was the infamous state police in Ming dynasty (I know). In fact, in 1900s and even during sino Japanese war, there were soldiers who didn't have guns, had to bring Dao onto the battlefield, but no sane person would ever use a Jian.
another modern day comparison would be : you can own arms in the US, but not automatic weapons. This was a similar idea.
a pointed tip may not last too long against armour? Roman cavalry spatha also had blunt tips to avoid accidental injury to horses; since this is for high ranking officers, it might make sense they have mounts as well.
Why do Jian have pointed tips and rounded tips?
Preference of the user.
If the swordsman prefer a cleaving sword, he goes with the round tip.
If the swordsman prefer a stabby sword, he goes with the pointed tip.
General's sword is more often used for enforcing disciplines (deserter execution) than fighting enemies. Rounded tip implies this sword is more cutting (eg. decapitation) oriented.
The romans used a Rounded spatha as their cavalry sword in the 4-5th century.
About the difference in tip while I have no experience with Chinese swords I can kind of imagine two different situations based on my experience with bullets. I imagine the difference is due to the civilian versus military application and here is what I was thinking.
If the rounded tip is the military 1 and the sharp tip is the civilian it could be a respect thing from duels. China at the time had some of the best doctors in the world and a sharp tip is going to make a cleaner wound cavity that can be sutured shut. We know on bullets that sharp nosed bullets are easier for doctors to fix and have a much higher chance of survival than hollow points.
On the other hand the if the rounded tip is the civilian application and the sharp tip is the military one it could be due to penetration. The reason hollow points are preferred for civilian self defense and sharp tipped bullets are prefered for military is because of over penetration concerns. A sharp nosed bullets has a much higher chance of going all the way through a person's body while a hollow point stops inside the body. The same could be true for these swords where again in a civilian duel if you can win by just wounding the other guy that is better out of respect for him compared to enemies you fight in war. So if the blunt tip will stop pretty soon after stabbing compared to the sharp tip going all the way through a person and out the back side that would be much easier for a doctor to fix after the fight is over.
Woo-hoo a fantastic sword to hear Matt prattle joyously on about while I start the day.
Chinese Martial Arts personal preference style or more likely that the rounded tip is likely for making it for cutting in a pendulum based motion.
The romans used a rounded version of the spatha for their cavalry sword, or so i heard
@@cognitivedisability9864 nice to know
Katzbalger also often have a rounded tip. And it seems like it’s possible to stab through clothes without a problem.
The music in the cutting session is something new.
Reminds me of the old bbc2 program in the 70's of,
The Water Margin.
Jian are similar to spathae from late Imperial Rome which also sometimes have rounded tips. The explanation I heard (which is repeated in the Wikipedia article on Spatha) was that these were Roman Equestrian cavalry swords and the rounded tip was to avoid accidentally stabbing the horse.
my guess for round vs pointy tips could be that the military frontline generals use pointy and the high ranking nobles in backend positions use round tip. combat roles use pointy but ceremonial roles use round.
Why the rounded tip? I could make a few speculations, most of which have probably already occurred to you.
The Ming Dynasty succeeded the Mongol Yuan Dynasty, which means that horseback combat was still very much the tradition of the day, _especially_ if you're a high-ranking officer. You would _never_ want to thrust with a one-handed sword from horseback unless you didn't mind losing your weapon and never seeing it ever again; gravity and momentum (yours and that of the fool you impaled) will conspire to pull it from your hand.
This causes a few problems, not least of which is that the jian in this case is also a symbol of your high rank in the military, so losing that has political and social consequences that could plague you and your entire extended family for years. The more immediate consequences relate to you basically disarming yourself in the middle of a melee. You, a mounted commanding officer, are now going to need to dismount your highly mobile vantage point to recover the sword you lodged in your foe about fifty yards back while you were on the move; during this time, you have effectively removed yourself as a player on the battlefield because you are no longer mobile, you have reduced your tactical awareness by lowering your eye level to that of a foot-soldier, you probably won't be able to signal to your immediate subordinates to command the troops even if you _did_ know what was going on because _they_ won't be able to see or hear you. It doesn't help you that the _other_ side's commanding officers have probably been keeping an eye on you this entire time, and now that you've effectively disarmed and dismounted yourself in the middle of the fighting, they're going to have their troops dogpile you and rip you to shreds for your hubris.
EDIT: I forgot to actually get to the point of the matter (pun intended). Long story short, a rounded jian tip reduces the temptation of a glory-hungry officer to use it to stab enemies from horseback by making such a technique ineffective. It's literally a safety device engineered into the weapon.
Interesting theory!
"You would never want to thrust with a one-handed sword from horseback" ?? The drawback you mentioned is real, but we know categorically that this was done. It was standard practice for European cavalry for centuries. Besides, if you just want to cut from horseback, then a curved sword is better in every way.
@@Robert399 Just because it was done doesn't make it the smartest of plans. From horseback, spears are just objectively better in nearly every circumstance you can think of, _especially_ against foot soldiers.
In my limited experience with such weapons, rounded tips are used against armor cos sharp tips get nicked after thrusting into armor while rounded tips can penetrate with enough force esp for mounted officers with the aid of horse intertia and still not nick the tip into uselessness. Sharp tip swords tend to be for more martial arts or civilian usage against unarmored or leather armored people as is common at the time, good penetration without getting nicked. Hence why the rounded tips are known as "soldier tips" for use on the battlefield against armor and sharp tips known as "scholar tips" for civilian use against unarmored targets. Also, on the battlefield, thrusting didnt seem like a main form of attack, in fact, cutting was the main form of attack and thats why swords are made like halfway between a rapier and a sabre and then eventually fully replaced by the dao or sabre in the battlefield after the Han dynasty. So, if thrusting wasnt the main form of attack on the battlefield, it also made sense that the tip was not sharpened unnecessarily. In fact, if you examine many of the sword forms of China, you will see more cutting movements than thrusting movements, which again goes to show that, contrary to popular belief, the jian was a more of a cutting weapon than a thrusting weapon. Another thing to take note of is that by the Ming dynasty (more than 500 years after the decline of swords as a battlefield weapon in the Han Dynasty), swords are already way way way off being a battlefield weapon and is more of a sign of nobility. Swords died off by the Tang Dynasty, replaced fully by sabres by the mongolian Yuan dynasty and the Ming dynasty that followed simply never used swords in the battlefield as a fighting weapon but more of a 0.45 personal protection pistol for officers hwo primarily used spears and halberds with a sword hanging on the belt more as a decoration than anyhthing. The two holes are both for lanyards as seen from historical photos. The lanyard on the hilt is more for going around the wrist to stop the weapon from flying off the hand. Also, the hilt of the Ming dynasty sword without wrappings also goes to show its not a truly fighting weapon when compared to real fighting swords of the Han dynasty with hilt wrappings. Just my two cents. Enjoyed your review a lot! I am going to buy from LK Chen just cos you say so. :)
from my understanding, along with the tassle, it has something to do with collecting blood and distractions, one is meant to injure and maim, the other is to clean the blade
It will be interesting to look at jian through the ages from the bronze age forerunners to the last shapes...
It’s funny how due to the round point, looks (to me) like the sword is missing part of the blade, and the long grip also contribute to this impression…
Probably the most iconic sword out of the later Ming was the changdao, lit translation longsword or langmesser, which was like a less curved nagamaki and specified in manuals as ~2m in length. Like the famous zweihanders, these were given to elite troops for opportunistic tactics like attacks along flanks or in gaps. Against wokou pirates, the Ming fought in loose order in 12-man predominantly polearm squads, due to marshy ground of southern China precluding large formations. Also due to the nature of the conflict being anti-bandit action, often requiring armies to fan out and search, necessitating these self-sufficient squads. In that context, changdao troops (as well as sword-and-shield men) rounded out these infantry teams.
Not really, the most iconic late Ming sword was the Liuyedao/柳叶刀.
Its use even survived beyond the Ming to modern times.
The Changdao was not even a popular weapon choice during the Late Ming and did not make it past the collapse of the Ming.
Glaives/朴刀 at the time were more widely used.
Very interesting. It doesnt look like a heavy chopper. I didn't expect it to cut so well.
the way jian became status and court sword while the dao became the main fighting sword is very similar to how the straight arab sword was replaced with the saber
Interesting, ima gonna look into it.
10:20 maybe the round tip is a symbol of mercy? Like, there are some who want to puncture through the enemies' organs, while some just want to disable and end the fight in a 'gentlemanly' (君子) manner without causing too much harm for the round tips? Or, sometimes, when a General who had scholars' background had their swords forged, they wanna show that they have studied and excelled in the Imperial Exams (讀書人), that's why they wanna distinguish themselves from savage soldiers who did not study books from Saints and Confucius.. (好男不當兵)?
Some of the Chinese gentlemen ethically blackmail themselves/ethically hold themselves to a high standard, so.. yeah, their standards materialise in that sort of forms. And also, they could afford to do that since it was peaceful Era for quite a while in China, no major wars going on, and that China was the pinnacle of tech back then..
My buddy got 2 lk chen Daos. Both were wobbly and vibrating out of the box.
This is just a thought and not based on any resources :
I would imagine the tip of the sword might depend on the worn armor and with it the mobility of the user. A chinese general in war seemd to have worn a very heavy armor... not only for maximal protection, but also because a general would not be expected to move anywhere during battle. And because it seemed very heavy I expect mobility was limited. If your mobility is limited, slashing is preffered move and mostly stay stationary in stand. Therefor the tip does not need to be pointy.
If you are not or only light armored you move faster and more... then stabbing is more an option.
As I said... just a thought
I'm waiting for a sword with a Shamrock handguard and a rabbit's foot pommel. 😋
What I have heard, Jian have two schools, and are call Chi Hung Jian/ Female Male Jian, or sometimes call Wen Wu Jian/
Scolar Military Jian.
Chi or Wen Jian have triangle sharp tips and are jian of civilian, scholar and martial artist, they are great at thrusting, very sharp in the one palm tip and great for one to one duel.
While Hung or Wu Jian are use in military where troops fight in formation and cutting are emphasized, while the tip is round it is still fatal weapon in thrusting.
The most iconic sword in the entire history of Japan is the famous Kusanagi-no-tsurugi. Just like this sword, the Kusanagi is a straight-bladed, single-hand, double-edged sword or jian. However, Matt, like you say, it's probably more representative of earlier swords. In fact, if it even exists (and it seems to), it's probably quite early, like the 5th or 6th century. You were mentioning "temple swords", and interestingly enough, the Kusanagi also resides in a temple in Nagoya, Japan. It was deposited there in AD 688, by which time it was already an old sword.
Also, there seems to be confusion in terms of when exactly the katana had its advent! I've heard some people state that it was a thing as early as the 11th century! Perhaps they're just generalizing, and calling what we would actually consider a tachi a "katana"? But I'm also in the camp that tend to think of the katana as a somewhat later trend, i.e. the 14th century, or so.
Mat is getting in mood for Myth of Empires too
The word jian means "cut". The sharpest part of all jian is the tip. It's common in Chinese martial arts to draw power from a precise movement to the end of a weapon. Be that a spear, staff, fighting sticks, or a sword. A round tip would have been more suitable for cutting.
that mushroom is scientifically called Ganoderma.
Perhaps the rounded vs pointed tip was a matter of choice depending upon what the likely opponent would be wearing? If you are up against someone wearing armour and tightly secured clothing, a point would be handy, but against someone wearing slack, loose fabric, such as what many Chinese civilians and nobles wore outside of battlefields, a pointed tip can snag and catch on the fabric. Seems possible considering how many of the robes worn were particularly loose around the sleeves, so even a defensive flail from your opponent could foul the tip of your sword and interfere with your next strike, giving the opponent time to draw their own weapon and strike back.
Thanks for that extended bit about the tip. It wasn't really enlightening but it was engaging. My guess is we will never know why there is a rounded tip.
Two handed - it makes sense that they were used that way, Afterall their hands were on the whole probably smaller than yours = even more room for 2 hands...
a lot of blades that have been used heavily as a result of constant sharpening the tip of the edge gets rounded like this
I appreciate the video, as always, but it would be nice to see Matt pick up some of the kinds of cuts and thrusts typically used with this weapon.
The Dao you can swing pretty much like an escrima stick, but the Jian is much more quirky and interesting.
Wharmt a beautiful sword!
Rounded tips are for tip cuts, sharper points are for thrusting.
For example taichi jian techniques focuses on tip cuts to tendons.
This guy has come a long way from hosting the crystal maze 😀
AWESOME REVIEW@!
super cool! thanks, Mat! :D
blunt tips seem like the EDC weapon when your prancing about towns with no armor. cuz you could easily do a specific motion with how chinese martial arts were like to get a sly cut right around the curve of the tip.
I think that the rounded tip was to get advantage of the flexibility of the blade for some specific movement techniques
Great video as ever.
I'd say it has to do with the individual who owned the sword. It most likely was seen as fashionable to have a spatulated tip. High ranking people who aren't expected to fight most of the time tend to steer towards fashion rather than 100% function. See King Henry's armoured codpiece.
Also an afterthought. Spatulated tips don't bend easily.
I'm going to guess a rounded tip might be because those people rode horses? And a pointed sword was for dismounted only use?
I wonder if the rounded point (being more for aristocrats and scholars) is used to illustrate that "thrusting/stabbing" is "bad form" - any commoner with a pointy stick can sloppily jab an adversary to death. The rounded tip is for more skilled swordsmen who wouldn't jab. ??? There are many thrusting moves in Jian forms in Various Chinese martial art teachings, though.
I had to dig out my old telescoping Tai Chi practice sword when you started explaining about gourds and fungi- sure enough there were those shapes!
About the rounded tip- my Tai Chi sword also has a rounded tip (dull of course as is the rest of the blade). Could there have been a formal dueling style that forbade stabbing? I saw several tip-related comments but not that possibility mentioned.
Matt is basically a walking museum
I have no idea, and have very minimal background. But I can imagine a more rounded tip being used for something like a civilian honor duel where the aim would be to wound/cut relatively superficially. That said, if this was a thing, I imagine it would be documented.
Rounded examples being rounded could be reground damaged blades, the tip breaking happens in knives often enough, so grinding a broken tip to an edge makes more sense than buying a new sword.
Wild hypothesis time.
A rounded tip will cut better than a point on a marginal cut (though still not particularly well of course), and maybe more importantly, it will be a lot more sturdy.
Possibly the fighting style de-emphasized thrusts and broken tips were an issue?
And naturally Matt makes the same point (hur hur) moments later. I wrote the comment when he threw the question to the audience.
Why some Chinese swords were pointed and some are not? My guess is: different fencing styles.
Mine too
Ming dynasty is a pretty big period of time, but during this period noblemen were being less militaristic and more administrative. It was the period that many of the generals claim that the use of the sword was lost and criticized the few people who still practiced (as the prevalence of inner martial arts made techniques not apt for warfare).
A round tip nail can be driven into wood just as well as a sharp nail. The blunt is easier to withdraw.
I'm also wondering on the eraser body armor, would perhaps this specific wedge like tip , could get past a chainmail that was at the time stopping the sharper finer tips ..thinking on how a wedge cuts wood , or helps split stone behind a hammer strike ? .. axes also, chopping down , very wide beveled ones with an edge , can really split heavy wood .. heavy blade , pretty long , with the skilled hand behind it , " equivalent of an axe on a forward instead of the base of a downward blade edge " ??
Just some thoughts on how feel to functional feel is , and parallels of use of other tools for other forms of cutting one may consider .
If I were to guess, perhaps it was a manner of preference? Perhaps some leadership felt that the tip was prone to breaking/not being suitable to defeat armor, so they simply forgone the pointed tip to focus cutting as opposed to thrusting.
Or perhaps because leadership were likely on horseback, they wouldn't be thrusting as much as needing that mass to cut and defend from horseback.
Rather unorthodox, but then again, China has a history of unorthodox styles of weapons and armor.
You should do a video on the Green Destiny now :)
Another fabulous sword by Chen.
Rounded tips were for military use against armored opponents and sharp pointy tip was for civilian use again non armored opponents.
It looks like quite the cutter. Impressive.
I remember reading in ymaa book on Chinese weapons pointed swords we're known as male and rounded ones as female
either 1 of 2. Opponents are often not in full armor and doesn't require extreme tip to be lethal, also better for longevity in battlefield if needed. Reason 2, they were court swords carried while meeting high officials and the emperor hence making them less lethal in case someone tries to assassinate.
watch some of the videos of the yang style tai chi sword forms (yang 32 step) and you will see a downward tip slash which would only really work with a rounded tip ( it looks like they are pointing toward the floor)
Maybe it was simply personal preference? If these swords were owned by high-status individuals they would certainly be made to their preference. Some might have valued slashing with the tip over thrusting simply due to their preferred style of fighting.
There’s a European sword (Italian if I recall) on display in the museum I work at with a tip that looks as round as a tongue depressor from your average doctors office, dated to late 13th or early 14th century, most visitors ask me if it’s an executioners sword.
It occured to me that with a blunt tip (even a sharp one) you could give your underlings a quick poke with the sword to hurry them along without doing any damage above a bruise. Oh and for long handled swords you forgot the obligatory 'Bastard' ;)
"Rounded" ? My suspicion is that some swordsmen did not like a deep thrust, but greatly preferred the shallow disabling thrust (perhaps a reflection of the Buddhist sensibility of allowing the opponent to live, rather than be reincarnated to an inferior form)