good video Matt. I am Hema fan from China and I think the general or high officer of Qing army carried YaoDao/'waist blade' rather than Jian/sword because for officers, sword was only for decoration in that era and Yaodao was the real side weapon of army, governors and 'Tartar' nobles (actually they were not Tartar/Mongols. Their ethnic group were Jurchen, but for 19th century Europeans, it's nearly impossible to tell the difference). The length of YaoDao was varied based on social identity. One real blade used by emperor is 96cm but officer blade is only about 70cm or slightly longer (according to museum record I think) which fits the description of British officer. Carrying a blade with inappropriate length would lead to terrible punishment.
Chinese officer (and any other non-frontline roles) waist blades can be rather short, it's almost like seeing police cutlasses or klewangs with their short nagasa. Frontline infantry and cavalrymen blades are a different story though
@@assassinvishal007 Not really, it's a dumb social status system. If you know your Chinese history, the system already existed in the Zhou dynasty and extra long swords used by kings were relatively useless as compared to the normal length swords used by lower classes. According to Records of the Grand Historian, when the assassin Jing Ke tried to kill Qin Shihuang, the latter couldn't draw his sword from its waist-mounted scabbard because the sword was too long. So there was a chase (nobody else was armed) until an official mimed rotating the scabbard to his back, pushing it up to allow his right hand to grab the hilt, then pulling the scabbard downward while drawing the sword upward. This worked and the tides instantly turned as the dagger-armed Jing Ke suddenly had to deal with a polearm-length sword and promptly got himself skewered.
I think western experts knew very much the differenceS(maybe), but the armed forces just didn't care much for history or ethnology, I mean have you seen any armies today openly recruiting historians(sinologist in this case)? No.
@@hughming they are mixed. I think genetically they’re primary O2 ydna with a mixture of C2. The O component is Chinese/east Asia related the C component is Mongol/central Asian. Culturally they are only semi nomadic, which makes sense considering the mixture. They founded the Jin dynasty before it fell to the mongols. But that point they were a proper settled people and not tribal like the Mongols.
An Egyptian viewer here! I’ve been a subscriber for years. and I would love to hear about some sword combat from Egyptian campaigns. Love your channel, awesome historical content.
If you have a chance (or access to a french speaker) sources on the Sino French war would be interesting. Several high profile French officers were killed in sword fights with the Black Flag Army in Vietnam (Which was essentially a chinese bandit army).
YESS! I second that, great suggestion! Black flags were fascinating... Motley crew of Hakka, Zhuang (non Han, more Tai), and others in what was for a time a successful bandit army... Haw wars also saw lots of other bandit bands fighting their way into SE Asia... Wild times
@@ramibairi5562 Apologies, I mostly had to go off English and Chinese sources when I talked about it on a podcast. I know there must be quite a few French Sources as it's an extremely common motif in French Comics and illustrations of the era. For example the death of Garnier and Riviere. Sorry I can't give you more!!!
"Uncivilized Races of Men" was a book I stumbled across in my university library some 30 years ago. IIRC it also had some interesting accounts about Japan and the "samori" (or however he spelled it). I recall him stating that he could imagine no finer weapon to go into battle with than the Japanese sword and remarked on the skill and ability of Japanese swordsmen, their short tempers, propensity to duel, and ability to dispatch an opponent in one or two strokes. That's all from memory, but made for interesting reading when I was supposed to be doing a chemistry assignment instead.
The issue is Japan (like Europe) developed guns very late. So knights and Samurai's were all pretty popular even as late as the 16th century. By then, the Chinese have had gunpowder for 6 centuries and armor was largely ineffective against gunpowder weapons. That's why sword culture was preserved until so late in those civilizations.
@GongoLongo, I don't think the use of gunpowder is the reason for the late existence of knights and samurai. Early gunpowder weapons were weak and inaccurate, and certain armors could stop bullets until the 1600s-1700s. Heavy armor such as lamellar and brigandine is used in late medieval and premodern China into the 1600s and early 1700s and there are youtube tests showing lamellar being able to stop a Rennisance era pistol bullet. Europe actually had bullet resistent curiass plate armor (and so did Japan after they adopted some European plates) where the maker would shoot the armor with a gun and leave the dent to show it could stop a bullet. The Japanese and European knights both existed when guns such as matchlocks were widespread. The samurai were one of the biggest users of matchlocks and Japan was a major producer of matchlocks in the late 1500s to 1600s, and the samurai didn't disappear until the late 1800s.
@@Gongolongo "So knights and Samurai's were all pretty popular even as late as the 16th century. By then, the Chinese have had gunpowder for 6 centuries" is that why they were using bows against gunmen? and i'm pretty sure the chinese didn't make particular use of guns, or herald their advancements, yea they have gunpowder bombs, and fireworks, but their guns were crude, where as the japanese went all in, and adopted the best guns of the time, and used it in mass, in their warring states period(japan still had Samurais way after it(although mainly thanks to their 200 year peace and isolation afterwards)). and it's not like people can just carry guns around in the citys, so sword culture should still be preserved, and it is, so stop making weird excuses, the point you're trying to defend (which is chinese swordsmanship wasn't preserved in the 16th centry, since they had gunpowder for 600 years) is wrong, it's still preserved, and thriving at that time, just because an expert prefers one sword type over another doesn't mean you should just say, "well ours wasn't preserved at that time, but if it was, it would have been better"
@@Gongolongo if you were talking about it not being preserved to modern times, then you should blame Mao for that, since he burned those books, and destroyed nearly all the relics.
@@IntranetusaMiyamoto Musashi also writes a comparison between bows and guns in his Book of Five Rings. He describes the gun as being powerful, but only practical for one shot in a battle unless you are reasonably disengaged. He marks the merits of the bow being a higher firing rate, and the ability to see your shots allowing to correct your aim after the initial shot. So in his era of the 16th-17th century, the two were reasonably comparable as weapons.
Matt I'm happy to see you making videos pertaining to the part of the world I'm in! Really cool to see. Regarding tatars, often in this context it's Bannermen, and their sidearm was typically a saber (刀 dao). By the mid 1800s the Bannermen system was declining in quality however there were skilled albeit antiquated Manchu, Mongol, and Han bannermen til the empire's collapse. Regarding sources, there's a variety in English, French, German, Japanese, Russian and from the Qing Empire itself... Here's a couple I can think of in English ... The Mercenary Mandarin: How a British Adventurer Became a General in Qing-Dynasty China by David Leffman Giuseppe Castiglione IIRC gave interesting anecdotes on the Qing Empire as well I think there's a Thomas Taylor Meadows who was traveling around the grand canal and had violent encounters?? Jonas Daniel Vaughan was in Singapore around that time, mid to later 1800s? James W. Davidson gives an account from 1895 Taiwan which was half ruled by the Qing, but had declared itself the Republic of Formosa as the Japanese Empire invaded - though Qing forces were still present (I made a video on this! 😁) Of course there's a lot more not in English, or, sometimes not translated very well, but there's the Dutch accounts especially pertaining to Taiwan and naval combat, Spanish fight against Limahong, Russian cossacks fighting the Qing, and more, such as the Hakka Kongsi fighting James Brooke in Sarawak, not east Asia, but Hakka chinese at least. Keep it up, hope to chat in the future! - Vincent
9:30 the "white button" probably refers to the colour-coded pompons or finials which were required to be worn on all officials' headgear in the Ming and Qing dynasties. The material or colour denoted rank in a 9-grade system (品; pin). Although luxurious materials were originally used, by the late 19th century they were becoming more economical coloured glass. Grade 5 wore a transparent white glass ball. Grade 6 wore an opaque white glass or porcelain ball. According to "Mesny's Chinese Miscellany" and the various typical posts he lists, this could make the officer something like a major to a captain and anything from a commandant of a lesser fortress or toll-gate to a company commander, various adjutant posts etc.
Although chinese rewards for bravery were also worn as clasps/buttons at the neck. One of these is what's referred to as "the crystal button", a small silver medal/clasp with a white crystal in the center and four chinese signs stating something like "to promote military valour". You can see these in some british collections as they were handed out to foreign troops that supported the emperor in training the imperial army during the Tai ping rebellion.
Gather 'round, lads, Uncle Matt is going to read you some real historical stories and accounts full of swashbuckling action and packed with context of superb quality! Top shelf insights in to those years/places/weapons and peoples who used them, thank you!
i absolutely love how youtubes automatic subtitle generation handles 'schola gladiatoria', 'scholar golly tourer' in this video is one of the best takes yet :D
The detail about Chinese musketeers igniting due to their burning matches after falling is fascinating. I wonder how many fallen Landsknechten had this problem too?
@@brendandor Wool is resistant to stray sparks from pans and muzzles of firearms, but probably not from pressing a burning match-cord on it for a few minutes.
Enjoyed the video I’m an USA antique dealer and about 20 years ago a lot of Antique Chinese swords were being imported in, I’d go these wholesale shops and they literally had barrels full of them. Most while old were of rather poor quality but I’d dug through them and I found a couple better ones. If I remember right they were $25…wish I bought more now
I read a first hand account of western swordsmanship against Chinese swordsmanship by a British major in the boxer rebellion in a table top wargaming magazine many years ago. The account stated that western sword technique was generally superior due to the simplicity of its movements and the average swordsman had little difficulty in dealing with a Chinese style. However, the Chinese spear was much more effective against both western swords and bayonets, and were greatly respected. Chinese spear technique is generally simpler and more direct compared to the techniques used in Chinese sword forms. You may want to look for accounts of Chinese solders fighting the "wako" Japanese pirates, the solution to the skill of the Katana wielding pirates was to employ teams of 2 solders one armed with the spear and the other armed with a Dao and shield against a single opponent. Tactically the spearman would engage the pirate while the solder with the Dao and Shield would rush in to attack. There are a number of accounts available also of Combat in the Sino- Japanese war. and of combat in WWII by the sword brigades of the communists against the Japanese. Couple of points: white button is a symbol of rank for the Qing dynasty banner men or mandarins. The Jian or Gim was the Chinese equivalent of the western court sword or small sword in terms of social standing. There term Chinese boxing comes from the term "Chuan Fa" lit. fist method rather than the term "kungfu" , The Indo-malay term Kuntao also stems from Chuan fa. The Qing dynasty was Manchurian in origin and so had very little to do with Mongolia. If anyone knows of the the account I mentioned I'd be interested to hear about it as I lost the magazine about 20 years ago :( Great tube. thanks!!
in your example of vs wako pirates, it seems to be more of an example of tactics rather then skill with weapons, since they need 2 guys, one with an sword and shield, and one with an spear to overcome one guy, in that example it can be said that the katana user has better swordsmanship and weapon, even if he loses the fight, since from that example it seems like they can't take the katana user down, even if they have theoretically more effective weapons, spear has better reach, and sword and shield has an shield, instead of the two handed katana user
Hi Matt! The Qing governmental documents in the 19th century listed a style of Dao with straight blade of 11~12 inches, it looks similar to a Jian but is single edged. Sources indicate it was popular as a tool or sidearm, and may well be what the British officers encountered. However, it seems like the Qing military did not use any true double edged swords.
When reading from Victorian sources, especially ones, like "The Uncivilized Races of Men," I think Mr. Easton should don a top hat and monocle, and maybe some glue-on mutton chops. Just to set the mood.
Nice Kitchener-style pith helmet at the beginning! I actually found one of those in London, but was appalled that the sweat band was not leather, but vinyl! I always enjoy your reading of historical sources regarding edged weapon combat.
Thanks for the great content Matt! There is one minor point you in my opinion is slightly ambiguous thus could be the subject of further discussions: these ‘swords’ introduced in these cases of primarily military conflict, have a very high chance of being dao 刀 instead of jian劍. Straight, doubled edged Chinese sword (jian) had long been at that time as a weapon of war, and singled edged, usually curved sword (dao) would be the more likely tool be used and seen on battlefields. Jian’s role since roughly the start of the Middle Ages had largely been a ceremonial one, and practiced widely amongst the members of the gentry, who would mostly pursue the career as a bureaucrat anyway. Qi JiGuang, a highly successful military commander lived a few hundred year prior to the opium wars left behind not only a manual on two handed sabre, but also some works about his philosophy in warfare, such as detailed accounts on what a unit in his army would be like. I am speaking on the top of my head so it might not be entirely true, but it mainly comprised of dao-wielding infantrymen with shields, archers, spearmen (and a specialist with a bizarre bamboo branch thingy to counter nodachi, which sometimes used by the Sino-Japanese pirates he was fighting against). China in the 19th century was under the leadership by the Manchurian, who are of the nomadic origin and conquered China in the 17th century. Naturally they put less of a focus on native Han Chinese culture which valued jian as an intrinsic part, but instead treat horse-archery with much higher regards, which they believe to be the ‘skill they found the country with’. Apart from being less effective in terms of power to cleave and cut, swords are also a lot more expensive to produce, due to its often longer length and thinner blade, and China’s forging capability, relies largely on artisans’ smithies instead of factories was also in a primitive state, compared to the industrialised west, it is unlikely that those troops and officers, unless they are in fact bandits and unofficial, regional militants to be widely equipped with jians. These are just my two cents on the matter, I am more than happy to hear yours and anyone else’s opinions and corrections.
One “two-in-one” sword, a dao if I remember correctly, is among the many weapons used by Shu Lien in her final duel with Jen in “Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon“.
It's her main weapon, yes. The one she carries from the start of the movie and thus uses first. It appears as a shuang dao (double saber) in a surprise move.
As a Chinese Canadian, this is my favorite video from you, it's very rare to find sources on Chinese sword combat, as most Chinese records can no longer be found. I would really like to hear more, thanks for the information.
Always remember that the reason Fairbairn was such a HARD MAN, is that he was fighting against the "Boxers" and Hatchetmen of the Tongs on a daily basis.
Thank you to both Rami and yourself, Matt! Very interesting. Oftentimes here in the States at least, it seems Chinese history is very much glossed over, if covered at all. After I noticed this in college, I'm always interested to hear about pointed details and accounts of it. Great videos, insights, and context!
Excellent as always. Saving the rest for later. I would love to see more about ancient swords. Scythian, old germanic swords. I know it's harder because most of the swords from that time are bit and pieces from archeological digs, but man. Some interesting stuff.
Not the Victorian era, but the Dutch were driven off of Taiwan by Koxinga the Ming pirate lord in 1662. That event warrants examination of HEMA and HAMA styles colliding together.
Thank You Rami! (I hope I spelled that correctly) I thoroughly enjoyed that video. I've been re-reading D.A. Kinsley's work on sword use in the British Empire, and I'd been noticing how many of the accounts occur while skirmishing, scouting, or pursuing. Another common instance is in the storming of a fortification. A lot of the accounts in Kinsley seem to come from surgeon's reports (lots of gruesome descriptions of wounds), so I wonder if surgeon records from the campaigns in China are available. They might be another useful source.
Well i know its a late thank you, but thank you ramy for sharing so all of us sword and martial arts enthusiasts can enjoy, thank you scholagladiatoria aswell
Very interesting video, and definitely big thank you to Rami for inspiring it. One point, though. At around 16'12", "[the Chinese were not afraid] to measure their sword against that of our officers" cannot mean that they were putting them side by side to see who had the longest! Surely this term "measuring their sword" means judging their skill in swordsmanship and judging the quality of the swords mechanical performance (speed, balance, cutting and thrusting capabilities).
Wonderful! I wonder, though, wouldn't any (potentially) naval officers or troops be carrying shorter blades? A friend of mine decades ago inherited a supposed katana from WWII, which I now suspect was some kind of dao and looted from the looters, to quote Tolkien.
Japanese naval officers were issued with katana during WWII. These were either older historical swords, others were made at the time. Some of the officers were trained in Battojutsu (similar kata to modern iaido).
Amazing video as always! I'd love to see you read and give your thoughts on Excerpts of combat from the Danish History books of Saxo Grammaticus in a format similar to the Tomahawk videos and this one. I've been reading them on ARMA's website, but youtube hid my initial comment because of the link, so I'll post a reply to this one with it.
A little bit off topic maybe: In Hungary the mongolian invasion of the 13th century is often called march of the tartars. The reason for it is, that the main forces reached central europe were tartar tribes. Cool video again.
When the Mongol nation was founded the actual Mongols - even the ruling Chinggisid clan - identified ethnically as Tatar. This was the proper name for their people up until the third generation, and this is backed up by their own writings at the time. Even Kublai at the beginning of his reign called himself a Tatar in imperial proclamations. So taking the example of the name Holy Roman Empire of the German People, you could say it was The Great Mongol Empire of the Tatar People. Later on the Ulus of Tolui decided to use Mongol as the name not just of the state but also of the people. At that point of time, their historians retroactively identified only the original Tatar ruling clan that Chinggis destroyed as Tatar. This is the Tatar tribe mentioned in the Secret History of the Mongols - the people who poisoned Yesugei. Since the Ulus of Tolui ruled over China (as the Yuan Dynasty), Iran (as the ilKhanate), and the Mongol homeland itself (as the Inheritance of Tolui), the new national identity became adopted by the vast majority of the formerly Tatar people and almost everyone became Mongols. However, the Ulus of Chagatai and Jochi didn't follow this trend, which is why the "Mongols" of the Golden Horde (the Ulus of Jochi) continued to call themselves Tatars. The Ulus of Ogodei had by that time been absorbed by the Toluids. The Ulus of Chagatai only adopted the Mongol name during the reign of the Timurid Dynasty, largely because by that time both the Timurids and the actual descendants of Chagatai had become more closely tied and even dependent on the Toluids. The Jochids never had this dependency so their people simply kept calling themselves Tatars. We kind of know that this must have been what had happened because it was actually something related peoples had done in this cultural sphere and we have a documented example closer to modern history. The Manchu of the Qin Dynasty were originally the Jurchen of the Later Jin Dynasty. Their founder Nurhachi just renamed the entire people Manchu with an imperial proclamation that was preserved in Qing archives.
I'm only slightly familiar with Chinese weapons (from an attempt to study them when I was younger) but I always thought the paired swords being in one sheath was more practical. Didn't really dawn on me that revealing them to be a set rather than a sole would surprise an opponent XD
The two swords in the last source are likely two dao since they would be used in circular motions overhead. Butterfly knives arent really spun around, jian could of course be but from what i've seen they are usuwally not spun as much. So i would suggest this is reffering to dao, possibly jian, but defenetly not butterfly knives
I think it would be beneficial to have a clearer differentiation of the various “Chinese” ethnic groups. I think a lot of people mean “Han 漢” when they use the word “Chinese”. There was a very clear separation between the Han people and the Jurchen(Mandarin) people. The Jurchen armies ran a unique military industrial complex system called the 8 banners, which is why they were called the “banner people”. Even till the late Qing dynasty the armies of the Jurchen and the later established Han armies were designed and ran separately and differently. The banner army had become a corrupted and immensely outdated military organization in the 1800s. It might be worth looking into Qing dynasty weapons and weapons combat in this perspective.
Thanks for the vid! The lack of accounts is quite a fascinating mystery. I wonder if some records may have been suppressed in some way or might be sitting around somewhere already transposed on microfiche, but not yet digitized lol.
One of the reason why there isn't much official account for hand to hand combat in China at Victorian era might be... Qing Dynasty has been suppress civilian's access to weapons and combat training for a long time (Manchurian feared of rebellion by other ethnics like no other, they did lots of crazy shits trying to prevent it from happening... Even by weakening the Empire it self...), and they generally limit the combat row to the 8 flags (Manchurian Noble Clan), who suppose to serve as the backbone of Qian's army... But the 8 flags were so rotten and useless at late Qing, and the Green Army (supporting force made mostly of Han ethnic) were consistently having their gear sold to the black market by their high ranking Manchurian commanding officers, and same behavior were carried down to the lower rank Han officers in order to generate money to bribe the high ranking officers. And Green Army's training were also neglected or none exist, so Qing's national force has been reduced to a bunch of fat rats leading untrained civilian with no combat ability... And when Qing's control start to fall, and civilian start to pick up weapon training again, Qing's army has already become so weak, and can't bloody fight anyway... And one shall not even expect to see and combat record from bunch of non-combatant isn't it?
@@101Mant I mean the record from the Chinese side... Late Qing's military force were so rotten, the units hardly even have the proper full record of their own gears (because so many of those gears were secretly sold by the officers, even the royal family were stealing from the military budget to build gardens or so)... So best of luck if you can find any records that were able to cross proof each other... :/ Otherwise there can be a chance that the Brits won't even notice that they were fighting against Qing infantries and just mistreat them as common bandits because how sucks they are...
@@Vostadues manchu population = 2% of total china population of that time , and somehow they can rule over han people for 300 years+ . what did your han people doing in span of 300 years ?
@@tranbachuyen6655 Hmm. good question, how about you tell me who opened the gate and invited them in? And who become a Prince and threatening the Manchurian so much that they have to find a way to set up trap to kill his family afterward? And which army there was to keep everything in order till the Manchurian corrupted the system beyond repair so Qing's military capability just fall off the floor? And "You Hans" is clearly an ethnic bias that you should not pick against me... My family do have distance tie to Aisin-Gioro clan generations back, so I am stand on the middle ground and have full right to give shit to both side, how about you?
If Indian troops were used in China, perhaps the regimental histories could provide source material. In the US, I have found a wealth of detailed info on battles and movements when researching at the regimental level. Sometimes a myopic view but worthwhile just the same.
Matt and Oz from EnglishMartialArts both have great reading videos. They should do a duel, reading period accounts of fighting, and we can vote which one is better reader =D
That's interesting about the double swords! I knew that they carried two Butterfly Swords like that but had no idea that they did the same with Dao or Jian.
What a great video Matt! Man has it caused me to go down some rabbit holes. I was curious if in some cases (not the first account where the witness refers to it as a short sword ) that the Chinese officers might be wielding Liuyedao? Your the expert and I’m sure your right on the Jian being well represented but the willow leaf ‘sabre’ was also in circulation right? It would still fit many descriptions in that the one at The Met has a total length that’s 1/2 an inch shorter than the blade length of the 1845. Heck I bet with it’s scabbard on it’s still shorter than the blade of most British swords of the period.
Lets face it the average British soldier was as ignorant of distinctions and used whatever terminology they preferred. Look how far the word "Indian" spread meaning any one from India, oceanic Asia, North/Central/South America or the Caribbean. Tartar could mean inner Asian, Muslim Russian. Sometimes tartar was used to distinguish Manchurians from Chinese as in the Boxer Codex or sometimes it didn't and was applied to Chinese people in general. The moral being don't take any designation as word of fact unless you have a reason why they would know better.
Amazing video as always 🙏 and looking forward for more about the subject though I have a crackpot theory here where I could be completely wrong regarding the lack of information regarding sword fights between brits and Chinese troops The theory is maybe the brits kept loosing most of the time and so either not wanting to admit to it or in order to keep morale up didn't describe or point out the fights and instead where like : oh yeah some of them fought with swords .
I imagine someone breaking into your house you'd toss them a sword and say now youve trespassed upon my homestead I challenge you now we must battle to the death! Lol
from what i understand the key strategy during the opium wars was actually outmaneuvering the banner army and fighting only when advantageous. as such almost all british victories were fought with both numerical superiority as well as against local citizen militia. not sure how well that would represent chinese swordsmen at the time.
What, like at the battle of Zhangjiawan? 4'000 Anglo French against 20-30,000 Chinese? It was napoleonic warfare against medieval. The Chinese were at too severe a technological disadvantage (their artillery said to be 200 years behind the Europeans).
@@anaussie213 Technology per se wasn't even the real problem, the problem was the Qing Banner System had rotten from within in the last century of relative peace and was reduced to a mass of corrupted untrained and mostly unequipped mobs. Almost a century earlier the Qianglong Emperor had successfully led campaigns against Russian forces, which had European style and technology (albeit possibly slightly behind); I'm certain that had the brits met the Chinese from a century earlier things wouldn't have been so easy.
“Tartar” in 19th century English language sources about China refers to either Manchus or Mongols specifically or to bannermen who could be Manchu/Mongol/Han.
Yeah, China is not this monolith of pure 'Han' Chinese. You have all sorts about, and at the time the Qing rulers were very much seen as these nasty barbarians from the north in the eyes of everyone else in China.
The first Opium War was largely destruction by naval gunnery or Marines/EIC infantry fighting in column and line style, with bayonet to close as required. But we know that generally bayonet charges rarely made it to contact as the defending line had usually been brought to the verge of rout beforehand even when dealing with professional European armies. The Qing armies at this time were not that, and the fire which formed troops with the better firearms could put into them would have been more impactful even than the British put into the Old Guard at Waterloo. Descriptions of the various encounters of any scale in the campaign seem to support this - perhaps not so much close quarter fighting, and few where officers needed to come to grips. Incidentally, the extensive use of Royal Marines raises some interesting lines of enquiry about fighting methods. Though very much infantry by naval standards, their fighting roles since 1750 onward were quite different, ie the real tasks they had to do, with large formation set pieces on land being a relatively small element. Sailors too, when required to melee, used particular weapons - shorter swords, for one thing - and tactics. There is some debate as to how much the long knives, particularly the type used in Wing Chun, owes some of its design to those matelots.
Given the Europeans clearly had the advantage in ranged weapons, I think accepting duels was actually beneficial to the lifespan of and perfectly logical from a Chinese officer's prospective: You aren't getting shot at for a while, and could potentially kill an officer. Even in the worst case, getting killed in a sword duel seems (socially) better than dying from a volley of gunfire.
I'd guess that it's not really a personal calculus of tactical and social advantage and more that the highly disciplined imperial guard doesn't hesitate to perform his duty.
Qing officials ('mandarins') had a 'knob' or ball on the top of their hat that by its colour indicated the rank of the wearer. I knew that from a late 19th century novel for many years but just yesterday I also saw examples in a museum where it was explicitly stated.
I sold a great book a few years ago very detailed about how to conquer china , it went into lots of detail with pull out maps and was written by a British diplomat in the Victorian period .So we did consider conquering china and adding it to the empire , I sold it to a Chinese gentleman
For those of you who love Kung fu, it is important to note that these anecdotes are from well before the cultural reduction. These soldiers were not using wushu weapons and wushu techniques. They were using either Kung fu trained as a soldier, or in some cases very little training at all. I really hope someone finds some in depth detailed accounts of Chinese swordsmanship.
@@andrewk.5575 You know, I thought that same thing when I proofread it, but I felt the need to be specific.
3 года назад+4
It wasn't just Cultural Revolution that caused Chinese martial arts to become lost. As early as Qing Dynasty, the Manchus already placed strict ban on practice of martial arts and a lot of martial arts were already lost.
Well the officer did recount the idea that he saw Chinese swordsmen whirring their blades about like a windmill. That does not sound dissimilar to Wushu performance.
Very intersting Accounts. Maybe there could be some German Accounts from the Boxer War. I am not into this topic that much, but you might know someone to ask in the Heart of "the continent" :)
I know of a nauseating of our german accounts that reads as: "All that came in our way, were slaughtered down. How the women screamed !" "„Alles, was uns in den Weg kam, wurde abgeschlachtet. Wie da die Weiber schrien“ This was because our emperor said at Bremerhaven after the murder of Clemens Freiherr von Ketteler by a sergeant of the Mandshu Army : „Pardon wird nicht gegeben; Gefangene nicht gemacht ... Wie vor 1000 Jahren die Hunnen unter ihrem König Etzel sich einen Namen gemacht … so möge der Name Deutschland in China in einer solchen Weise bekannt werden, dass niemals wieder ein Chinese es wagt, etwa einen Deutschen auch nur scheel anzusehen.“ A reprehensible revenge for the death of one diplomat.
"Let's take a look at some Chinese swords and swordsmen in Victorian Times. It's really very interesting to look at these things," said a British soldier, taking aim from Lee Enfield. - Really! - the Russian, the Frenchman, the German and the Austrian answered him - grabbing their rifles - I can assure you, - said the Japanese, loading the cannon that there are no such diverse and interesting blades, even in our country.
Do you go no farther back than the Mediaeval Period in the videos? Are there any on ancient weapons which I have missed? (If a possibility, could I suggest a video on the Carthaginian falcata?)
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
Use the British Newspaper Archive now with my link! tidd.ly/3uHA8xo
good video Matt.
I am Hema fan from China and I think the general or high officer of Qing army carried YaoDao/'waist blade' rather than Jian/sword because for officers, sword was only for decoration in that era and Yaodao was the real side weapon of army, governors and 'Tartar' nobles (actually they were not Tartar/Mongols. Their ethnic group were Jurchen, but for 19th century Europeans, it's nearly impossible to tell the difference).
The length of YaoDao was varied based on social identity. One real blade used by emperor is 96cm but officer blade is only about 70cm or slightly longer (according to museum record I think) which fits the description of British officer. Carrying a blade with inappropriate length would lead to terrible punishment.
Very interesting!
Chinese officer (and any other non-frontline roles) waist blades can be rather short, it's almost like seeing police cutlasses or klewangs with their short nagasa. Frontline infantry and cavalrymen blades are a different story though
@@assassinvishal007 Not really, it's a dumb social status system. If you know your Chinese history, the system already existed in the Zhou dynasty and extra long swords used by kings were relatively useless as compared to the normal length swords used by lower classes. According to Records of the Grand Historian, when the assassin Jing Ke tried to kill Qin Shihuang, the latter couldn't draw his sword from its waist-mounted scabbard because the sword was too long. So there was a chase (nobody else was armed) until an official mimed rotating the scabbard to his back, pushing it up to allow his right hand to grab the hilt, then pulling the scabbard downward while drawing the sword upward. This worked and the tides instantly turned as the dagger-armed Jing Ke suddenly had to deal with a polearm-length sword and promptly got himself skewered.
I think western experts knew very much the differenceS(maybe), but the armed forces just didn't care much for history or ethnology, I mean have you seen any armies today openly recruiting historians(sinologist in this case)? No.
@@hughming they are mixed. I think genetically they’re primary O2 ydna with a mixture of C2. The O component is Chinese/east Asia related the C component is Mongol/central Asian. Culturally they are only semi nomadic, which makes sense considering the mixture. They founded the Jin dynasty before it fell to the mongols. But that point they were a proper settled people and not tribal like the Mongols.
Came for the sword - stayed for the context.
Context Maketh the Man
Nothing but respect for my captain
As one does.
🤔🙂
Hi Matt !
Really appreciated watching the video. Thanks a lot !
Thanks Rami!
@@ratethehenka4217 My pleasure :)
Thank you so much for finding these. :)
@@TrollvolkMuch Appreciated :)
Thank you for the research you put into this!
An Egyptian viewer here! I’ve been a subscriber for years.
and I would love to hear about some sword combat from Egyptian campaigns.
Love your channel, awesome historical content.
If you have a chance (or access to a french speaker) sources on the Sino French war would be interesting. Several high profile French officers were killed in sword fights with the Black Flag Army in Vietnam (Which was essentially a chinese bandit army).
YESS! I second that, great suggestion! Black flags were fascinating... Motley crew of Hakka, Zhuang (non Han, more Tai), and others in what was for a time a successful bandit army... Haw wars also saw lots of other bandit bands fighting their way into SE Asia... Wild times
Would you please share the source here !
French speaker, here. How can I be of service ?
@@ramibairi5562 Apologies, I mostly had to go off English and Chinese sources when I talked about it on a podcast. I know there must be quite a few French Sources as it's an extremely common motif in French Comics and illustrations of the era. For example the death of Garnier and Riviere. Sorry I can't give you more!!!
@@justafloridamanfromthe75thRR the french liked to duel and so did the chinese. i imagine these happenings were more often than documented.
"Uncivilized Races of Men" was a book I stumbled across in my university library some 30 years ago. IIRC it also had some interesting accounts about Japan and the "samori" (or however he spelled it). I recall him stating that he could imagine no finer weapon to go into battle with than the Japanese sword and remarked on the skill and ability of Japanese swordsmen, their short tempers, propensity to duel, and ability to dispatch an opponent in one or two strokes. That's all from memory, but made for interesting reading when I was supposed to be doing a chemistry assignment instead.
The issue is Japan (like Europe) developed guns very late. So knights and Samurai's were all pretty popular even as late as the 16th century. By then, the Chinese have had gunpowder for 6 centuries and armor was largely ineffective against gunpowder weapons. That's why sword culture was preserved until so late in those civilizations.
@GongoLongo, I don't think the use of gunpowder is the reason for the late existence of knights and samurai. Early gunpowder weapons were weak and inaccurate, and certain armors could stop bullets until the 1600s-1700s. Heavy armor such as lamellar and brigandine is used in late medieval and premodern China into the 1600s and early 1700s and there are youtube tests showing lamellar being able to stop a Rennisance era pistol bullet. Europe actually had bullet resistent curiass plate armor (and so did Japan after they adopted some European plates) where the maker would shoot the armor with a gun and leave the dent to show it could stop a bullet. The Japanese and European knights both existed when guns such as matchlocks were widespread. The samurai were one of the biggest users of matchlocks and Japan was a major producer of matchlocks in the late 1500s to 1600s, and the samurai didn't disappear until the late 1800s.
@@Gongolongo "So knights and Samurai's were all pretty popular even as late as the 16th century. By then, the Chinese have had gunpowder for 6 centuries" is that why they were using bows against gunmen? and i'm pretty sure the chinese didn't make particular use of guns, or herald their advancements, yea they have gunpowder bombs, and fireworks, but their guns were crude, where as the japanese went all in, and adopted the best guns of the time, and used it in mass, in their warring states period(japan still had Samurais way after it(although mainly thanks to their 200 year peace and isolation afterwards)). and it's not like people can just carry guns around in the citys, so sword culture should still be preserved, and it is, so stop making weird excuses, the point you're trying to defend (which is chinese swordsmanship wasn't preserved in the 16th centry, since they had gunpowder for 600 years) is wrong, it's still preserved, and thriving at that time, just because an expert prefers one sword type over another doesn't mean you should just say, "well ours wasn't preserved at that time, but if it was, it would have been better"
@@Gongolongo if you were talking about it not being preserved to modern times, then you should blame Mao for that, since he burned those books, and destroyed nearly all the relics.
@@IntranetusaMiyamoto Musashi also writes a comparison between bows and guns in his Book of Five Rings. He describes the gun as being powerful, but only practical for one shot in a battle unless you are reasonably disengaged. He marks the merits of the bow being a higher firing rate, and the ability to see your shots allowing to correct your aim after the initial shot. So in his era of the 16th-17th century, the two were reasonably comparable as weapons.
I love these historical deep dives. It's probably my favorite type of video.
Matt I'm happy to see you making videos pertaining to the part of the world I'm in! Really cool to see. Regarding tatars, often in this context it's Bannermen, and their sidearm was typically a saber (刀 dao). By the mid 1800s the Bannermen system was declining in quality however there were skilled albeit antiquated Manchu, Mongol, and Han bannermen til the empire's collapse.
Regarding sources, there's a variety in English, French, German, Japanese, Russian and from the Qing Empire itself... Here's a couple I can think of in English ...
The Mercenary Mandarin: How a British Adventurer Became a General in Qing-Dynasty China by David Leffman
Giuseppe Castiglione IIRC gave interesting anecdotes on the Qing Empire as well
I think there's a Thomas Taylor Meadows who was traveling around the grand canal and had violent encounters??
Jonas Daniel Vaughan was in Singapore around that time, mid to later 1800s?
James W. Davidson gives an account from 1895 Taiwan which was half ruled by the Qing, but had declared itself the Republic of Formosa as the Japanese Empire invaded - though Qing forces were still present (I made a video on this! 😁)
Of course there's a lot more not in English, or, sometimes not translated very well, but there's the Dutch accounts especially pertaining to Taiwan and naval combat, Spanish fight against Limahong, Russian cossacks fighting the Qing, and more, such as the Hakka Kongsi fighting James Brooke in Sarawak, not east Asia, but Hakka chinese at least.
Keep it up, hope to chat in the future!
- Vincent
9:30 the "white button" probably refers to the colour-coded pompons or finials which were required to be worn on all officials' headgear in the Ming and Qing dynasties. The material or colour denoted rank in a 9-grade system (品; pin). Although luxurious materials were originally used, by the late 19th century they were becoming more economical coloured glass. Grade 5 wore a transparent white glass ball. Grade 6 wore an opaque white glass or porcelain ball. According to "Mesny's Chinese Miscellany" and the various typical posts he lists, this could make the officer something like a major to a captain and anything from a commandant of a lesser fortress or toll-gate to a company commander, various adjutant posts etc.
hah, fancy seeing you here, I recognize Volkonsky (I think) from the L'Aigle and maybe 1257AD forums way back in the day. Cheers.
I came here to say this !
Although chinese rewards for bravery were also worn as clasps/buttons at the neck. One of these is what's referred to as "the crystal button", a small silver medal/clasp with a white crystal in the center and four chinese signs stating something like "to promote military valour". You can see these in some british collections as they were handed out to foreign troops that supported the emperor in training the imperial army during the Tai ping rebellion.
Gather 'round, lads, Uncle Matt is going to read you some real historical stories and accounts full of swashbuckling action and packed with context of superb quality!
Top shelf insights in to those years/places/weapons and peoples who used them, thank you!
All he needs is a leather high back chair and a fire place.
i absolutely love how youtubes automatic subtitle generation handles 'schola gladiatoria', 'scholar golly tourer' in this video is one of the best takes yet :D
The detail about Chinese musketeers igniting due to their burning matches after falling is fascinating. I wonder how many fallen Landsknechten had this problem too?
Landsknech do not drop their muskets. 😄
@@bharnden7759 you kinda don't have a choice after a reisläufer stabs you in the eye.
Wool is naturally pretty fire resistant, not sure exactly what cloths they used whereas maybe the Chinese had cotton or silk?
@@brendandor Wool is resistant to stray sparks from pans and muzzles of firearms, but probably not from pressing a burning match-cord on it for a few minutes.
Soldiers in the thirty year's war were known to accidentally blind themselves by over-priming their pans. Dangerous tool under pressure.
Enjoyed the video
I’m an USA antique dealer and about 20 years ago a lot of Antique Chinese swords were being imported in, I’d go these wholesale shops and they literally had barrels full of them.
Most while old were of rather poor quality but I’d dug through them and I found a couple better ones.
If I remember right they were $25…wish I bought more now
Love the videos I spent a good majority of my childhood watching your videos
I read a first hand account of western swordsmanship against Chinese swordsmanship by a British major in the boxer rebellion in a table top wargaming magazine many years ago. The account stated that western sword technique was generally superior due to the simplicity of its movements and the average swordsman had little difficulty in dealing with a Chinese style. However, the Chinese spear was much more effective against both western swords and bayonets, and were greatly respected. Chinese spear technique is generally simpler and more direct compared to the techniques used in Chinese sword forms.
You may want to look for accounts of Chinese solders fighting the "wako" Japanese pirates, the solution to the skill of the Katana wielding pirates was to employ teams of 2 solders one armed with the spear and the other armed with a Dao and shield against a single opponent. Tactically the spearman would engage the pirate while the solder with the Dao and Shield would rush in to attack.
There are a number of accounts available also of Combat in the Sino- Japanese war. and of combat in WWII by the sword brigades of the communists against the Japanese.
Couple of points:
white button is a symbol of rank for the Qing dynasty banner men or mandarins.
The Jian or Gim was the Chinese equivalent of the western court sword or small sword in terms of social standing.
There term Chinese boxing comes from the term "Chuan Fa" lit. fist method rather than the term "kungfu" , The Indo-malay term Kuntao also stems from Chuan fa.
The Qing dynasty was Manchurian in origin and so had very little to do with Mongolia.
If anyone knows of the the account I mentioned I'd be interested to hear about it as I lost the magazine about 20 years ago :( Great tube. thanks!!
better than rotten manchuria swordsmanship
in your example of vs wako pirates, it seems to be more of an example of tactics rather then skill with weapons, since they need 2 guys, one with an sword and shield, and one with an spear to overcome one guy, in that example it can be said that the katana user has better swordsmanship and weapon, even if he loses the fight, since from that example it seems like they can't take the katana user down, even if they have theoretically more effective weapons, spear has better reach, and sword and shield has an shield, instead of the two handed katana user
Hi Matt! The Qing governmental documents in the 19th century listed a style of Dao with straight blade of 11~12 inches, it looks similar to a Jian but is single edged. Sources indicate it was popular as a tool or sidearm, and may well be what the British officers encountered. However, it seems like the Qing military did not use any true double edged swords.
Love these period accounts.
When reading from Victorian sources, especially ones, like "The Uncivilized Races of Men," I think Mr. Easton should don a top hat and monocle, and maybe some glue-on mutton chops. Just to set the mood.
Yess!!! I was looking for eyewittnes accounts and reports for ages. Thank you so much. :D
Love to hear more like this, very, very interesting Matt . Keep them coming!
Nice Kitchener-style pith helmet at the beginning! I actually found one of those in London, but was appalled that the sweat band was not leather, but vinyl! I always enjoy your reading of historical sources regarding edged weapon combat.
Uncle Matt is by far my favorite playlist.
This was very interesting and well presented. Thank you, as always, Matt.
Thanks Rami!
And thanks Matt for presenting!
Thanks for the great content Matt!
There is one minor point you in my opinion is slightly ambiguous thus could be the subject of further discussions: these ‘swords’ introduced in these cases of primarily military conflict, have a very high chance of being dao 刀 instead of jian劍. Straight, doubled edged Chinese sword (jian) had long been at that time as a weapon of war, and singled edged, usually curved sword (dao) would be the more likely tool be used and seen on battlefields. Jian’s role since roughly the start of the Middle Ages had largely been a ceremonial one, and practiced widely amongst the members of the gentry, who would mostly pursue the career as a bureaucrat anyway. Qi JiGuang, a highly successful military commander lived a few hundred year prior to the opium wars left behind not only a manual on two handed sabre, but also some works about his philosophy in warfare, such as detailed accounts on what a unit in his army would be like. I am speaking on the top of my head so it might not be entirely true, but it mainly comprised of dao-wielding infantrymen with shields, archers, spearmen (and a specialist with a bizarre bamboo branch thingy to counter nodachi, which sometimes used by the Sino-Japanese pirates he was fighting against). China in the 19th century was under the leadership by the Manchurian, who are of the nomadic origin and conquered China in the 17th century. Naturally they put less of a focus on native Han Chinese culture which valued jian as an intrinsic part, but instead treat horse-archery with much higher regards, which they believe to be the ‘skill they found the country with’. Apart from being less effective in terms of power to cleave and cut, swords are also a lot more expensive to produce, due to its often longer length and thinner blade, and China’s forging capability, relies largely on artisans’ smithies instead of factories was also in a primitive state, compared to the industrialised west, it is unlikely that those troops and officers, unless they are in fact bandits and unofficial, regional militants to be widely equipped with jians. These are just my two cents on the matter, I am more than happy to hear yours and anyone else’s opinions and corrections.
I love Matt videos on combat accounts.
Stories like these are so fascinating. You always wonder what swordfighting and warfare was like, and these stories kind of give you a glimpse of it.
Better than having nothing. And there are paintings for illustration as well.
These are great videos, Matt. Would love to hear more accounts from around the world.
One “two-in-one” sword, a dao if I remember correctly, is among the many weapons used by Shu Lien in her final duel with Jen in “Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon“.
It's also the swords that Zuko uses when he is disguised as the blue spirit.
It's her main weapon, yes. The one she carries from the start of the movie and thus uses first. It appears as a shuang dao (double saber) in a surprise move.
As a Chinese Canadian, this is my favorite video from you, it's very rare to find sources on Chinese sword combat, as most Chinese records can no longer be found. I would really like to hear more, thanks for the information.
You can thank Mao for that.
@@edwardrichard2561 I agree that the Cultural revolution destroyed Chinese Martial arts, the useful stuff was replaced with flashy, useless stuff.
@@edwardrichard2561commies hate history
Always remember that the reason Fairbairn was such a HARD MAN, is that he was fighting against the "Boxers" and Hatchetmen of the Tongs on a daily basis.
Really want one of those LK Chen nueweidao. I just really like that oxtail profile and how it handles.
Great video, thank you!
Fascinating stuff. Thanks to Rami 🙂👍
Thank you to both Rami and yourself, Matt! Very interesting.
Oftentimes here in the States at least, it seems Chinese history is very much glossed over, if covered at all. After I noticed this in college, I'm always interested to hear about pointed details and accounts of it. Great videos, insights, and context!
Excellent as always. Saving the rest for later. I would love to see more about ancient swords. Scythian, old germanic swords. I know it's harder because most of the swords from that time are bit and pieces from archeological digs, but man. Some interesting stuff.
Yaay! I was really looking forward to another of these! ^_^
This paints a pretty good picture to me good work thank you very much
Not the Victorian era, but the Dutch were driven off of Taiwan by Koxinga the Ming pirate lord in 1662.
That event warrants examination of HEMA and HAMA styles colliding together.
Thank You Rami! (I hope I spelled that correctly) I thoroughly enjoyed that video. I've been re-reading D.A. Kinsley's work on sword use in the British Empire, and I'd been noticing how many of the accounts occur while skirmishing, scouting, or pursuing. Another common instance is in the storming of a fortification. A lot of the accounts in Kinsley seem to come from surgeon's reports (lots of gruesome descriptions of wounds), so I wonder if surgeon records from the campaigns in China are available. They might be another useful source.
Well i know its a late thank you, but thank you ramy for sharing so all of us sword and martial arts enthusiasts can enjoy, thank you scholagladiatoria aswell
Great content. I am certainly lacking in the period of history and this added some great context.
Very interesting video, and definitely big thank you to Rami for inspiring it.
One point, though. At around 16'12", "[the Chinese were not afraid] to measure their sword against that of our officers" cannot mean that they were putting them side by side to see who had the longest! Surely this term "measuring their sword" means judging their skill in swordsmanship and judging the quality of the swords mechanical performance (speed, balance, cutting and thrusting capabilities).
Wonderful! I wonder, though, wouldn't any (potentially) naval officers or troops be carrying shorter blades?
A friend of mine decades ago inherited a supposed katana from WWII, which I now suspect was some kind of dao and looted from the looters, to quote Tolkien.
Japanese naval officers were issued with katana during WWII. These were either older historical swords, others were made at the time. Some of the officers were trained in Battojutsu (similar kata to modern iaido).
Amazing video as always!
I'd love to see you read and give your thoughts on Excerpts of combat from the Danish History books of Saxo Grammaticus in a format similar to the Tomahawk videos and this one. I've been reading them on ARMA's website, but youtube hid my initial comment because of the link, so I'll post a reply to this one with it.
A little bit off topic maybe: In Hungary the mongolian invasion of the 13th century is often called march of the tartars. The reason for it is, that the main forces reached central europe were tartar tribes. Cool video again.
When the Mongol nation was founded the actual Mongols - even the ruling Chinggisid clan - identified ethnically as Tatar. This was the proper name for their people up until the third generation, and this is backed up by their own writings at the time. Even Kublai at the beginning of his reign called himself a Tatar in imperial proclamations. So taking the example of the name Holy Roman Empire of the German People, you could say it was The Great Mongol Empire of the Tatar People. Later on the Ulus of Tolui decided to use Mongol as the name not just of the state but also of the people. At that point of time, their historians retroactively identified only the original Tatar ruling clan that Chinggis destroyed as Tatar. This is the Tatar tribe mentioned in the Secret History of the Mongols - the people who poisoned Yesugei. Since the Ulus of Tolui ruled over China (as the Yuan Dynasty), Iran (as the ilKhanate), and the Mongol homeland itself (as the Inheritance of Tolui), the new national identity became adopted by the vast majority of the formerly Tatar people and almost everyone became Mongols. However, the Ulus of Chagatai and Jochi didn't follow this trend, which is why the "Mongols" of the Golden Horde (the Ulus of Jochi) continued to call themselves Tatars. The Ulus of Ogodei had by that time been absorbed by the Toluids. The Ulus of Chagatai only adopted the Mongol name during the reign of the Timurid Dynasty, largely because by that time both the Timurids and the actual descendants of Chagatai had become more closely tied and even dependent on the Toluids. The Jochids never had this dependency so their people simply kept calling themselves Tatars.
We kind of know that this must have been what had happened because it was actually something related peoples had done in this cultural sphere and we have a documented example closer to modern history. The Manchu of the Qin Dynasty were originally the Jurchen of the Later Jin Dynasty. Their founder Nurhachi just renamed the entire people Manchu with an imperial proclamation that was preserved in Qing archives.
ALWAYS like hearing tales of actual combat use.
I'm only slightly familiar with Chinese weapons (from an attempt to study them when I was younger) but I always thought the paired swords being in one sheath was more practical. Didn't really dawn on me that revealing them to be a set rather than a sole would surprise an opponent XD
I really enjoy these takes on other cultures through an in-period lens.
The two swords in the last source are likely two dao since they would be used in circular motions overhead. Butterfly knives arent really spun around, jian could of course be but from what i've seen they are usuwally not spun as much.
So i would suggest this is reffering to dao, possibly jian, but defenetly not butterfly knives
I think it would be beneficial to have a clearer differentiation of the various “Chinese” ethnic groups. I think a lot of people mean “Han 漢” when they use the word “Chinese”. There was a very clear separation between the Han people and the Jurchen(Mandarin) people. The Jurchen armies ran a unique military industrial complex system called the 8 banners, which is why they were called the “banner people”. Even till the late Qing dynasty the armies of the Jurchen and the later established Han armies were designed and ran separately and differently. The banner army had become a corrupted and immensely outdated military organization in the 1800s. It might be worth looking into Qing dynasty weapons and weapons combat in this perspective.
Really love the videos been watching for years
Really enjoying these Victorian era combat videos, keep up the excellent work! (Also, nice pith helmet!)
I see your Col. Mountain and raise you Lieutenant General Sir Manley Power!
Interesting video as always. Cheers from Norway 😃
Thanks for the vid! The lack of accounts is quite a fascinating mystery. I wonder if some records may have been suppressed in some way or might be sitting around somewhere already transposed on microfiche, but not yet digitized lol.
Mandarins hats were topped with a button. The colour/material marker of their rank. White tridacna shell marked a 6th grade officer.
Very informative as usual.
Love story time with Uncle Matt! ❤️
Thanks Rami!
One of the reason why there isn't much official account for hand to hand combat in China at Victorian era might be...
Qing Dynasty has been suppress civilian's access to weapons and combat training for a long time (Manchurian feared of rebellion by other ethnics like no other, they did lots of crazy shits trying to prevent it from happening... Even by weakening the Empire it self...), and they generally limit the combat row to the 8 flags (Manchurian Noble Clan), who suppose to serve as the backbone of Qian's army... But the 8 flags were so rotten and useless at late Qing, and the Green Army (supporting force made mostly of Han ethnic) were consistently having their gear sold to the black market by their high ranking Manchurian commanding officers, and same behavior were carried down to the lower rank Han officers in order to generate money to bribe the high ranking officers. And Green Army's training were also neglected or none exist, so Qing's national force has been reduced to a bunch of fat rats leading untrained civilian with no combat ability... And when Qing's control start to fall, and civilian start to pick up weapon training again, Qing's army has already become so weak, and can't bloody fight anyway... And one shall not even expect to see and combat record from bunch of non-combatant isn't it?
This is about British records, what you said is about the quality if the troops they were fighting, that wouldn't be a reason not to have records.
@@101Mant I mean the record from the Chinese side... Late Qing's military force were so rotten, the units hardly even have the proper full record of their own gears (because so many of those gears were secretly sold by the officers, even the royal family were stealing from the military budget to build gardens or so)... So best of luck if you can find any records that were able to cross proof each other... :/
Otherwise there can be a chance that the Brits won't even notice that they were fighting against Qing infantries and just mistreat them as common bandits because how sucks they are...
@@Vostadues manchu population = 2% of total china population of that time , and somehow they can rule over han people for 300 years+ . what did your han people doing in span of 300 years ?
@@tranbachuyen6655 Hmm. good question, how about you tell me who opened the gate and invited them in? And who become a Prince and threatening the Manchurian so much that they have to find a way to set up trap to kill his family afterward? And which army there was to keep everything in order till the Manchurian corrupted the system beyond repair so Qing's military capability just fall off the floor?
And "You Hans" is clearly an ethnic bias that you should not pick against me... My family do have distance tie to Aisin-Gioro clan generations back, so I am stand on the middle ground and have full right to give shit to both side, how about you?
Yesssss! I love these period account videos!
That was interesting start to finish. I like context,..
Great information. Thank you!
Excellent content.
Tartars at this time referred to Manchus and Mongols but in this case the men involved were almost certainly Manchu troops of the Eight Banners.
very fascinating, appreciate the videos
Matt's ears would certainly raise the ire of a Victorian Sgt Major sticking out from under his pith helmet!
If Indian troops were used in China, perhaps the regimental histories could provide source material. In the US, I have found a wealth of detailed info on battles and movements when researching at the regimental level. Sometimes a myopic view but worthwhile just the same.
Loved this. Thank you.
Thanks for the video ⚔️
Matt and Oz from EnglishMartialArts both have great reading videos.
They should do a duel, reading period accounts of fighting, and we can vote which one is better reader =D
Thanks a lot--really great video!
That's interesting about the double swords! I knew that they carried two Butterfly Swords like that but had no idea that they did the same with Dao or Jian.
Thank you.
What a great video Matt! Man has it caused me to go down some rabbit holes. I was curious if in some cases (not the first account where the witness refers to it as a short sword ) that the Chinese officers might be wielding Liuyedao? Your the expert and I’m sure your right on the Jian being well represented but the willow leaf ‘sabre’ was also in circulation right? It would still fit many descriptions in that the one at The Met has a total length that’s 1/2 an inch shorter than the blade length of the 1845. Heck I bet with it’s scabbard on it’s still shorter than the blade of most British swords of the period.
Lets face it the average British soldier was as ignorant of distinctions and used whatever terminology they preferred. Look how far the word "Indian" spread meaning any one from India, oceanic Asia, North/Central/South America or the Caribbean. Tartar could mean inner Asian, Muslim Russian. Sometimes tartar was used to distinguish Manchurians from Chinese as in the Boxer Codex or sometimes it didn't and was applied to Chinese people in general. The moral being don't take any designation as word of fact unless you have a reason why they would know better.
and an excellent video again!!!
Amazing video as always 🙏 and looking forward for more about the subject though I have a crackpot theory here where I could be completely wrong regarding the lack of information regarding sword fights between brits and Chinese troops
The theory is maybe the brits kept loosing most of the time and so either not wanting to admit to it or in order to keep morale up didn't describe or point out the fights and instead where like : oh yeah some of them fought with swords .
Thanks Rami
Bloody interesting! Thanks a lot!
Thank you Rammi
Ah, so this is Matt Eastern.
Excellent information… quite interesting…
I imagine someone breaking into your house you'd toss them a sword and say now youve trespassed upon my homestead I challenge you now we must battle to the death! Lol
from what i understand the key strategy during the opium wars was actually outmaneuvering the banner army and fighting only when advantageous. as such almost all british victories were fought with both numerical superiority as well as against local citizen militia. not sure how well that would represent chinese swordsmen at the time.
What, like at the battle of Zhangjiawan? 4'000 Anglo French against 20-30,000 Chinese? It was napoleonic warfare against medieval. The Chinese were at too severe a technological disadvantage (their artillery said to be 200 years behind the Europeans).
@@anaussie213 Technology per se wasn't even the real problem, the problem was the Qing Banner System had rotten from within in the last century of relative peace and was reduced to a mass of corrupted untrained and mostly unequipped mobs. Almost a century earlier the Qianglong Emperor had successfully led campaigns against Russian forces, which had European style and technology (albeit possibly slightly behind); I'm certain that had the brits met the Chinese from a century earlier things wouldn't have been so easy.
“Tartar” in 19th century English language sources about China refers to either Manchus or Mongols specifically or to bannermen who could be Manchu/Mongol/Han.
Yeah, China is not this monolith of pure 'Han' Chinese. You have all sorts about, and at the time the Qing rulers were very much seen as these nasty barbarians from the north in the eyes of everyone else in China.
Tatars were not Manchus though.
@@bbr6444 Didn't mean to say they were, but to the British, that was their understanding of them.
@@TheNEOverse yes the Brit’s were ferocious snobs and bigots.
The first Opium War was largely destruction by naval gunnery or Marines/EIC infantry fighting in column and line style, with bayonet to close as required. But we know that generally bayonet charges rarely made it to contact as the defending line had usually been brought to the verge of rout beforehand even when dealing with professional European armies. The Qing armies at this time were not that, and the fire which formed troops with the better firearms could put into them would have been more impactful even than the British put into the Old Guard at Waterloo. Descriptions of the various encounters of any scale in the campaign seem to support this - perhaps not so much close quarter fighting, and few where officers needed to come to grips. Incidentally, the extensive use of Royal Marines raises some interesting lines of enquiry about fighting methods. Though very much infantry by naval standards, their fighting roles since 1750 onward were quite different, ie the real tasks they had to do, with large formation set pieces on land being a relatively small element. Sailors too, when required to melee, used particular weapons - shorter swords, for one thing - and tactics. There is some debate as to how much the long knives, particularly the type used in Wing Chun, owes some of its design to those matelots.
My sifu says that the jian was more ornamental than used on the battlefield. It was given to officers of higher station.
After the ming dynasty maybe. They were used by every footsoldier in the Han.
Jian is double blade one hand sword , it take massive amount of time and effort to use it properly let not talk about master it ,
Given the Europeans clearly had the advantage in ranged weapons, I think accepting duels was actually beneficial to the lifespan of and perfectly logical from a Chinese officer's prospective: You aren't getting shot at for a while, and could potentially kill an officer. Even in the worst case, getting killed in a sword duel seems (socially) better than dying from a volley of gunfire.
I'd guess that it's not really a personal calculus of tactical and social advantage and more that the highly disciplined imperial guard doesn't hesitate to perform his duty.
@@appa609 Or maybe a bit of both.
Qing officials ('mandarins') had a 'knob' or ball on the top of their hat that by its colour indicated the rank of the wearer. I knew that from a late 19th century novel for many years but just yesterday I also saw examples in a museum where it was explicitly stated.
I sold a great book a few years ago very detailed about how to conquer china , it went into lots of detail with pull out maps and was written by a British diplomat in the Victorian period .So we did consider conquering china and adding it to the empire , I sold it to a Chinese gentleman
That WAS interesting. Thanks.
For those of you who love Kung fu, it is important to note that these anecdotes are from well before the cultural reduction. These soldiers were not using wushu weapons and wushu techniques. They were using either Kung fu trained as a soldier, or in some cases very little training at all. I really hope someone finds some in depth detailed accounts of Chinese swordsmanship.
Cultural revolution*
@@pyronicdesign While "cultural revolution" is the usual term for that part in Chinese history, I'm not sure you were wrong the first time....
@@andrewk.5575 You know, I thought that same thing when I proofread it, but I felt the need to be specific.
It wasn't just Cultural Revolution that caused Chinese martial arts to become lost. As early as Qing Dynasty, the Manchus already placed strict ban on practice of martial arts and a lot of martial arts were already lost.
Well the officer did recount the idea that he saw Chinese swordsmen whirring their blades about like a windmill. That does not sound dissimilar to Wushu performance.
🌟 Excellent. Where do I look for the psychological effect of arrows?
Oh this should be good! Time to sit back. =)
Historical accounts, wonderfull!
Very intersting Accounts. Maybe there could be some German Accounts from the Boxer War. I am not into this topic that much, but you might know someone to ask in the Heart of "the continent" :)
I know of a nauseating of our german accounts that reads as: "All that came in our way, were slaughtered down. How the women screamed !" "„Alles, was uns in den Weg kam, wurde abgeschlachtet. Wie da die Weiber schrien“ This was because our emperor said at Bremerhaven after the murder of Clemens Freiherr von Ketteler by a sergeant of the Mandshu Army : „Pardon wird nicht gegeben; Gefangene nicht gemacht ... Wie vor 1000 Jahren die Hunnen unter ihrem König Etzel sich einen Namen gemacht … so möge der Name Deutschland in China in einer solchen Weise bekannt werden, dass niemals wieder ein Chinese es wagt, etwa einen Deutschen auch nur scheel anzusehen.“ A reprehensible revenge for the death of one diplomat.
"Let's take a look at some Chinese swords and swordsmen in Victorian Times. It's really very interesting to look at these things," said a British soldier, taking aim from Lee Enfield.
- Really! - the Russian, the Frenchman, the German and the Austrian answered him - grabbing their rifles
- I can assure you, - said the Japanese, loading the cannon that there are no such diverse and interesting blades, even in our country.
Do you go no farther back than the Mediaeval Period in the videos? Are there any on ancient weapons which I have missed? (If a possibility, could I suggest a video on the Carthaginian falcata?)