NO MORE POCKET OF THE SHOULDER
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- Опубликовано: 7 ноя 2023
- NO MORE POCKET OF THE SHOULDER.
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Explain the WHY and question the ways your were taught fundamentals. Here is a quick snippet of the way we teach a proper mounting of the rifle or rifle to shoulder connection. For the full length video & more in-depth educational video subscribe to the IG exclusive content feed! Join a community a#from around the world tuning into the LIVE sessions and in-depth lessons there.
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Link here ig.me/u/achillesheeltactical?...
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Sign up for a training course at www.achillesheeltactical.com
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Link in bio @achillesheeltactical 
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So we are going to ignore fact it takes muscle tension to roll shoulder forward and hold in place?
My thoughts exactly.
There is muscle use but I think the reason this is so effective is bc it relies on using stable muscles that are more proximal on the body VS using your distal limbs which fatigue quicker
But notice when he shoots fast his upper body is indeed pushed back, That should not happen, especially suppressed.
@@ModernTacticalShooting true yea I do see that. Do you think muscle tension with with his lower extremities would solve this specifically?
I was thinking the same exact thing.
Every so often salesmen must reinvent the wheel to remain viable.
Couldn't have said it any better.
I started watching the Magpul videos way back. It has come full circle including the risers for sights.
I was about to go on a rant about mincing minutiae, and here your genius ass pops off with way fewer words and energy I had mustered. Spot on assessment.
Absolutely spot on, in his industry it’s best for his business to stand out, it’s simple business, come up with something and then sell it.
@@submoa9278 There was a time in America, within my lifetime, where such excuses for nonsense sales puffery were ridiculed, mocked, etc. and not tolerated when discovered in a local merchant.
I'm pretty sure that time is about to return. so enjoy your Everyone A Lying Salesman era while it lasts.
Started doing this overseas because my armor was too wide to get a consistent shoulder pocket. Carried it over into non armor shooting. Glad I'm not crazy.
That's a great point. I watch alot of great videos but when employed, many of us are wearing duty belts that push your torso up when prone and we are wearing boday armor AND plate carriers. Still appreciate all these instructional videos tho! Good comment sir. Stay safe.
Who told you, you're not crazy???
your plates were too big then. bad habits
@@joeyduese6638 yes they were, but if a bad habit produces better results it isn't a bad habit. Shoot against me and compare notes.
Its crazy you say that because i remember thinking this exact thing when i was trying to shoot in full kit i just never implemented it
I think the shoulder pocket was used for rifles with more recoil like 30-06. Putting like a garand or something on my collar bone just seems like a bad time
Most certainly is learn that around 6 years old...
Or one of the old Belgium made Browning 12g with high brass at six yrs old.
My AR I built is in the 458 flavor, it jumps no matter what and no sir am I putting that on my collar bone. I can see 223, it has no recoil to speak of, I'm sure that'll be fine to try with that one
It's definitely an old school vs. new school.
You didn't see the chicken wing thing anymore either because the prevalence of pistol grips.
.308 has entered the conversation.
12 ga. is on a kill streak
As a fellow relatively short guy at 5’6” thank you SO much for making this video - not only did it teach years of “stock it in the pocket” mentality when it came to mounting the rifle, but I cannot tell you how nice it is to see on a guy my size what the appropriate setting and hand grip are for someone with my frame and height 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
I just retired after 22+ years in Law Enforcement. During a majority of that time I was a patrol rifle instructor, pistol/ shotgun instructor. Also 9 years on SWAT. Its nice to see young Officers getting deep into instruction and training. I've never used this technique myself but I will be trying it out in the next couple days. It's never to late to learn a better way to do something. Maybe it'll work, maybe not. But its always worth trying. Nice video!
🤣 I figured.
Former paratrooper here and I completely agree. I just wonder if this technique still works when wearing plates
Long range precision shooters have been recommending a "collarbone" shouldering technique for a while now. Really helpful for shooting with armor too.
Lol😂😂
AGREED.
Prone
until the high caliber rifle starts smacking the collarbone. shit hurts
There is no shoulder pocket when your elbow is down like the instructor demonstrated. The shoulder pocket is only there with the elbow out away from the body like the old Highpower rifle competitors used to do before the low recoil AR became the standard.
The shoulder pocket is very easy to locate and define when the elbow is properly extended. The end of the clavicle and the deltoid muscle create the pocket. It is extremely useful when shooting heavy recoil rifles, but not needed for little cartridges like the 5.56. The old submachine gun hold using the inner pectoral hold is very useful for low recoil and center line shooting techniques. The shoulder roll isn’t really needed if shooting from the center line. Reverting to the elbow down shoulder hold can help with rounding corners inside buildings while room clearing. At times I place the buttstock over the top of my shoulder to shorten the length of the rifle while entering doorways.
Yessir. Agree. Though I'd say the shoulder pinch (I don't go as far as the roll) can help for lateral transitions in multi-shot strings. That's where most weak points are revealed -- multi shot strings across the field of view, having to make transitions as well as breaking many shots.
Perfectly said. A few ideas come to mind: A time and place for everything. There's probably a reason it became "the way" to do it. What's old is new again.
Alternate video title suggestion: NO MORE POCKET OF THE SHOULDER UNLESS SOMETIMES STILL
“The true science of martial arts means practicing them in such a way that they will be useful at any time, and to teach them in such a way that they will be useful in all things.”
― Miyamoto Musashi
Well that makes sense. As much as people don't want to hear it, there's a scientific logical approach to solving almost any problem, and once you make it scientific and really break it down, it obviously becomes hyper refined.
"Never Stray From The Way"
@@SamaelVR And despite what you said being vaguely true in some sense (nice word salad you offered) -- plenty will say they used "science" but they don't know science from shinola.
@@seanoneil277how was that in any way shape or form… word salad. that was a very basic explanation he gave.
@@retroactive1 At your level it may be "impressive" or whatever, but that speaks to the paucity of wisdom and experience residing in you. And why do you feel compelled to defend someone other than yourself anyway? How have YOU been hurt here, little boy?
I've been taught a variation of push-pull that was taught to my instructor through sig academy. Very often when shooting rifles, I have a much easier time than others. You've fairly accurately described how I approach my rifle. When my classmates ask me questions and when I diagnose the targets of others, I've always said that they must be implementing way too much muscle compared to how I'm doing it.. They seem to steer the gun off course actively by how they tense and flex.
Excellent explanation and diagnosis ;) ❤
Every time I've tried push-pull I get haywire multi-shot accuracy but decent one-shot accuracy. It's way too much muscle work for what's needed. I tried it on a .22LR upper, and a normal .223 Wylde upper. Same result, more tension/work than is needed. I can't think of a single athletic movement that uses that kind of constant dynamic tension as a strategy. Every one I know says, build it first with your skeleton and second with muscles. Never, ever first with muscles.
@seanoneil277 yup that's what I see the most. It's inconsistent pressures being applied, and/or too much tension being applied.
I'm more of a technique/finesse guy and less of a brute force guy. Most people that experience inconsistent hits on target are exceptionally fit and or craftsman with over developed grip and strength based on what they do for a living.
So it's too much muscle from my perspective. Push-pull enough, but not excessively.
If it makes you feel any better, I cannot seem to figure it out on a 12ga. I'm not putting enough muscle into it lol. I lose my balance on the 3rd shot every time. Super frustrating 😤
@@Buletspunge555 Push-pull seems like a great idea for a situation where you have a folded stock rifle, and you don't have time to unfold the stock.
The whole point of the stock is to avoid having to tension the rifle with push-pull!
The dynamic push-pull tension is necessary in some variant for handgun shooting. Clamping/wedging the pistol between the two hands. Because you don't have a stock to stabilize it against your body!
I completely agree with the whole “everything in line” deal - and yes it sure helps if you can keep your recoil to only straight up and down sight movement - but I’m not convinced about the whole “roll your shoulder” explanation.
I practice ready- ups from a low ready and or SUL position and I try to minimize movement so the gun comes straight up to the cheek weld and I really don’t have to think about my shoulder cos it’s already there !
Ima look into this one and do some trials 👍
It feels like he is exaggerating the movement to demonstrate
Regardless of whether or not this is a viable technique for most shooters, this is a fascinating concept.
Everybody has a different mentality when it comes to this,my opinion use what works for you
Good point.
what happens if what works "for you" ends up being a defenciency or just not efficient at all?
@static49ers8 if it WORKS for you then it just works don't you think?
Shit! I've been shooting tactically through the PD and competitive shooting for 25 years. This is the most amount of sense I have heard. Love these guys. Bringing new techniques that make the most amount of sense. Everyone else is reinventing the wheel. Kudos AHT, love to come take some courses.
They are excellent at breaking down techniques to a finite level, but its not new. Its just new to you. Nothing is totally new under the sun. When someone spends a lot of time shooting and in constant critical thought about how to get better and more efficient results, the truth is a path that all students will find. The truth of the matter is most people just listen to regurgitated information handed down and refuse to do their own thinking.
PD and Competition are where the old school gate keepers are 😂. I've been roasted for my 3" OCL LPVO but they all stop talking when I'm taking first place by big ass gap.
@@boygonewhoopdataZZwhat's OCL? I only know of Otter creek labs. Is there an optic brand OCL?
So, when you're prone, looking round a corner you just have to push forward exposing even more of your body to incoming return fire? Right......
These guys bring new technique’s. Other guys re-invent the wheel..
me : What?
Wow! One of the best tutorials ever! THANK YOU!
Thank you!
I have been trying to explain that for years. Thank you.
I realized I was kind of doing this already. Now to refine it. Good info!
Good!
As a newer shooter who doesn't get out to the range much.... You guys have a new subscriber. 🎉
dont do this with a shotgun lol
Best thing is to try it out. It's confusing but willing to test and see what's best.
Thanks for posting this. I was sort of doing this, but your technique is giving me something solid to work on.
This is genuis and I will tell you why, its really easy to strain your neck under duress , this way makes so much more sense on so many levels , neck strain being one of them.
Knowledge bomb. I still struggle with the concept a bit because of how many years I mounted the rifle the wrong way. Thank you for these videos. They help you reset.
For sure dude! I get it! I’m glad you enjoy them.
So is a bladed stance incorrect? I ask bc I've heard Jerry miculek saying he uses it for rifles (and square up for pistols). But this video says to stay square up?@@achillesheeltactical
@@wcsdiariesthis technique is used to avoid needing a bladed stance
@@andycraig6905 what's the disadvantage of a bladed stance?
Ahh the old chest sholder 😂
I did some shooting with my rifles and PCCs using elbows in, and c clamping. Stock in shoulder pocket though. My groups are much much better, both 25 & 50 yards. Wish my knees and ankles were 25 years younger though.
Great to hear! Yeah I bet man!
Just did the same technique with my new Holosun LS117 green laser. It was like point shooting out at 25 yards , and all rounds stayed in an 8” Shoot N C Target.
With an AR 556, just hold it how it works for you. It barely moves. Other platforms move. Eye alignment is the fundamental quality of the shot. So, practice eye alignment from different holds. The whole point of AR 556 is its light and agile in the hands of the shooter. It's made to move around. I like shooting from the chest, but shoulder works. Practice hip shooting to. And swapping. Shoot it every way, bros.
Good info. Much appreciated, 👍.
Absolutely man!
Good stuff, thanks.
I don’t really have much time on an AR so hopefully I don’t have bad habits. I have mainly just shot 20 rounds to zero different optics over 3 different rifles, 300 BO AR, 5.56 AR & 308 bolt. It was all done from a bench with a span of 2 years between the 300BO (1 session) & the 5.56AR/308 bolt (1 session).
It would be really nice to attend a beginner carbine class.
Why'd you buy multiple ARs only to never shoot them?
@@markoredano9141 I got them because it’s my right, but I’m in Commiefornia-lite (Hawai’i) and the range is on the other side of the island from me. Hawai’i has laws where we can only go home to gun shop to home or home to range to home so it is very cumbersome to shoot. The range only allows 5 rounds loaded and slow fire. There are some clubs that train/compete but I don’t have a chest rig or belt holsters to train. Plus ammo is extremely hard and expensive to get here since we have to have it shipped to Commiefornia and a freight forwarder to boat over here. I am counting down the days (years) until I can move back to the mainland and get ammo shipped to my doorstep.
Started doing something similar when wearing armor because i couldn't get a consistent pocket. Weird i don't see many other people shooting from the collarbone, it makes perfect sense to me for a light recoil rifle
So how does this work with 12ga??
I learned from Bruce Lee’s book, the less unnecessary movement the more efficient/effective the fighter.
Amazing how that relates to all sorts of fighting
I like what’s being presented here. I learned this position about 22 years ago. I think the shoulder thing has been out for a while. Not sure how or why or where it’s still being taught.
👍👍with every new video i learn something new,great job💥💥
Great technique and very useful for shooting an AR15 platform. We get issued bulpup rifles in my country and this does not float... cannot shoulder it like you said. But great for low recoil rifles, especially some subsonics i tried in 300BLK and 5.56. But trying it on our 7.62x51 issued rifles also does not work when in armor. Too much tensioning of the shoulder is needed, so after a while you start to shake a lot when pushing the shoulder forward.
I understand you don't want to focus on transferring the energy of the buttstock backwards and hard into your shoulder and death grip it, but does this apply to other calibers? I don't really shoot 5.56. Mostly 7.62x39, but also .308, 30-06 and 8mm Mauser. My man breasts hurt just thinking of my Kar98 ramming into my side boob/clavicle
This is an excellent video brother.
He's mostly correct, guys. Dont exaggerate the stock to the cheek. he's just showing in general how to bring it up.
A VERY important thing or mechanical advantage we now teach in NSW is to square your shoulders and hips with your fighting/boxing stance. This keeps the body from getting torqued during recoil, while youre trying to fight it. A more squared approach (in general situations) is a more relaxed and stable shooting position for repeated shots.
That point about torque, axially around the spine, is a very good one. If you have to make multiple shots in a string, you want the rifle to stay square and not yaw from the rotation around your spine.
The nearer you bring your stock to your centerline/spine, the more you reduce the yaw tendency. But if you have to add a lot of muscle tension to put the stock there and keep it there, it may not be as effective at countering torque as one would imagine, on paper.
@seanoneil277 makes perfect sense, especially if your plate carrier has thick straps and you're trying to fight against it and / or thick clothing with winter gear.
This is why i like the angled stocks on rifles like the scar.
Im gonna give that a try thanks
Made me get out of bed at 11pm. Shoulder my rifle about 2 times to realize i dont have the problem he is selling the solution to. Different techniques for different people and situations though. I kinda fall into a flow of motion while staying target focused.
As someone who does military shooting and engages in hunting, I find these instructors funny. These techniques work well with a modern AR-15, but with more traditional rifles old school techniques work well. Something should be taught for what works well for you in advanced classes.
Sincere question: How does this work if you have an offset red dot that requires the buttstock to be canted into the face, to utilize?
Grow an additional eye.
thanks guys
Thank you.
Shrugging up towards it is absolutely still using muscular tension
Use these muscles not these muscles to avoid muscle tension fatigue.
Also, I'd rather get aggressive with my shoulder/chest than my clavicle. Adrenaline and pucker factor are going to keep you from gingerly laying and rolling your rifle and shoulder.
The stuff people come up with to take your money. I appreciate advertising like this to save money knowing where bot to go. And cheerleader in the back talking about how EVERYONE using the muscles the instructor chooses over his muscle choice has been lucky all this time. Lots of luck winning them World Wars and stuff.
One more thing while I'm at it. This is the rifle equivalent to the ridiculous turtling people started doing, and some idiots still do, with their pistol stance.
😂😂😂 your funny. Here’s a cookie for your thoughts. 🍪 My “cheerleader” and I only do this for a living so what do we know.
Interesting. I notice when I’m doing drills I don’t always have a perfect presentation. I’ll have to give this a try over a few training sessions before I make a determination.
I love this, but does it work with body armor? I end up canting my rifle mag side slightly turned up.
“Speeding up you shots make it more convincing!”🤣
I'd say this was a total gimmick, but the guy in the back chewin' backee sold me on it. Next time I come home to visit the states, I'll give this a try.
😂😂😂😂
Really interesting, Can i ask is there any felt back tension that develops with using this technique?
Double checked to make sure I was subbed with notifications after this video.
Maybe for a 5.56 and tactical light stuff, but I’m not shooting my .375H&H resting on my clavicle.
I learned the “shoulder pocket” technique 25 years ago for shotgun and within 6 months realized it doesn’t work with soft body armor. To address it for qual, I did something similar. But no one ever mentioned it again. 🙄
Very interesting. Never saw this done before so I’m stoked to try it out. Thanks 🙏🏻
Rick is THE best 💪🏻🇺🇲
Thanks for the video. So basically roll yourself into the stock and not the contrary if i follow you correctly ? Have to try this, but due to genetic issue i grew tall (6'7) with very narrow shoulders. I wonder if the lack of "real estate" will be an issue in applying such technique. Will give it a try.
Great video
Thank you!
That was a "AH-HA" moment for me. Off to re-train muscle memory now. Thank you!
Does this only apply to the AR and similarly buffered rifles with minuscule recoil?
Great way to ridicule me for years of disservice lol. I can hit center mass at great distance, but this makes so much sense. I'll be changing my stance after this.
The more I watch these tutorials the more I can see the resemblance between shooting a rifle and a boxing stance, although this minor change to widen the shoulders here is totally the opposite of what you should do in boxing since it creates a bigger target. But this makes sense when shooting a rifle. I can't wait to try. I guess it also depends on the shooter and what type of gear you're also rocking.
What about if you got a long ass neck
Umma have to try this position next time on range cuz this the second time someone said this. The other guy was shooting at 850yrds away so I knew he wasn’t crazy
Ill have to try this. I seem to always have my buttstock in a different spot. I struggle with consistency. Also, I just got a plate carrier and i have been trying to train with it. How does this work with the sholder straps of a plate carrier in the way? Thanks for all the education. Your videos have greatly helped with my shooting!
Right handed - the stock would be left of my right shoulder strap. The stock is butted against my plate/pec/clavicle, sandwiched between my cheek and deltoid. Head stays vertical.
Depends on the plate carrier obviously and how it fits you but the stock is always more centerline than shoulder pocket.
Not sure if that's how they teach it but that's how this method works for me with armor on.
Consistent placement.
Keeping my head vertical I use my cheek as a reference point to keep consistent placement. The stock comes to my cheek and not vice a versa.
Glad that works for him
I have seen countless videos of ''special dude'' doing this. I know this is controversial but if these guys are doing it then it definitely works.
Great content…..
I would rather an elevated cheek weld, or extra wide buttstock, with all the top-mounted optics. Cheek weld is more important for accuracy. Bringing the rifle up to the cheek, as opposed to craning the head down to the rifle, just makes ergonomic sense.
I been asking these same questions for years and being called stupid. We are taught natural position and alignment with the riffle in prone. In standing, we moved to the gun. Same thing going in Scuba Diving. too much muscling things instead of using natural alignment.
NOW.. I have to change my standing... go figure.
what about your standing do you change? Do you use a bladed stance?
Sweet technique
Plate carriers make this a bit difficult tho.
True. you need to adjust accordingly..
I was just thinking about how to adjust to this. Could you use the edge of the plate itself if you have large enough sized plates? It is an unyielding structure that won’t tire out. Based on where the stock placement is in the video it’s be right on the edge of the plate for me. I run size large plates
Buttstock on top of plate. It is then sandwiched between your cheek and shoulder.
I had to do this for a year because my plate carrier was too big and would push the stock out of my shoulder pocket. As long as you have a cheek weld it is very stable.
That looks like passing the buck to a different muscle group lol and I’m totally happy with my grouping and hitting 40/40 during qualifications using what I’ve always used to stabilize my weapon
Shooting Service Rifle Comps, the stock toe barely catches my shoulder. 5.56 doesn’t recoil.
Sight alignment comfortably to eyes, that’s all that’s needed.
Good advise I am going to try, I was taught to death grip it, and yes it reduces recoil but I did notice a decline in accuracy, definitely like the technique they are showing.
its makes sense too when using a plate carrier, seems like youre putting the stock of the rifle "inside" the strap of the carrier
Yes depending on the height and design of the carrier.
Nice 👍
Looking to get a comfortable “shouldering” with a plate carrier. Some help needed. I have a K19 3.0 from Agilite.
Your way of teaching is second to none, its a blizz to watch you brotha!
Hunting rifles 30-06 300 ultra mag I do the pocket method with elbow out because that’s the only way I can form a good pocket. My ar it’s pretty much this method to comfortably and consistently shoot with my elbow down. I don’t have a plate carrier yet but with my ruck the old school method I can’t get the consistency of the pocket method with the strap. It doesn’t feel uncomfortable as well. Lucky it’s just a 556 and not like shooting a 300 ultra mag not properly seated in the shoulder 😂
I feel like doing one or the other (bringing your body to the rifle vs. pulling the rifle into your shoulder) are almost the same thing performed in different ways. Granted, how you perform it here, you seem to quite literally bring your body to the rifle and it doesn't seem like you're putting any input in with your support hand. My two cents, I do both to a degree and that gets me a solid mount. I feel like structure and alignment is more important over this vs. that.
Awesome instruction. Off topic but I see you run UF Pro as well. I could swear they carried Rugby shirts but I don't see them on their site. Is yours UF Pro?
I feel like we are over thinking this whole thing. Every situation with different gear will dictate what the best way to hold your rifle is. Flat range is all fine and dandy but how often in combat are you standing square with you target on flat ground lighting of strings of fire??? Not often! Hold the freaking gun however you have to to get hits that’s all that matters. Are there technical ways to be more efficient? Yes but we getting lost in the weeds now a days.
What sling are you using?
Just get a spring loaded silent caprture buffer and you eliminate recoil and can shoot with one hand.
Does anyone think that reduced angle or zero angle grip helps with this, I just switched to a zero angle on one of my AR's and has seemed to speed up my reacquiring the target !?
Just wait a year or two and somebody will come up with the absolutely best way of doing anything. Mark my words.
Also help with folks with problems with eye relief
Shit I’ve been doing it all wrong. Thanks bro.
Don't use this with big bore and with kids as it breaks the collar bone on occasion
You vs The guy she tells you not to worry about
Armchair warriors abound. Thing is, I think when you are looking at new technique. Try it out, make it work for you. Don’t give up on it. Think about the time and place it’s been specially developed for. He probably has allot of time and method put into it as well as upper shoulder/neck work to support it.
Like reading/watching swordsmanship. Your attempt will not be like his attempt. You might even hurt yourself. The muscles involved will quickly be clear.
i hold every rifle like im holding an AK , and i set up every rifle like so. more into the pec. then shoulder. works for me
Looks like a reboot of what Travis Haley and Chris Costa were teaching back in the day. And then we got away from it because it adds too much muscle strain, in favor of a more relaxed and upright stance. I'm not arguing against either, because both have their merits. Where I see this having an issue is when you've got a plate carrier on, which inhibits all that shoulder rolling forward and seating the stock that far inward towards the chest. But if it works for you and your setup, more power to you. More than one way to skin a cat.
what about when I wear Plate Carrier?
Ok, if you want to try this out on a flat range to see if it works for you.... But when you are hearing snaps and cracks, you do whatever you do, and mostly don't remember what it was afterwards
That’s how it’s done son!
I'm open, I'll give this a try.
What suppresor is that?
What’s the suppressor on this rifle?