I want this, and I would probably listen to it in my off time, but I also don't want Tom to die. This would have to be his final project before retirement.
@@rileymellor5209 I've read all 34 Halo books, and I was tempted to start HH, so I was curious: after so many books, there's some Halo books I just genuinely remember nothing about lol, so with that many books in, do you come across references to the previous books that you just completely forgot about or flat out don't remember?
flat out stupid imagine someone is recommending Grim Brothers' tales, and for some reason they assume that chronological order is a good basis to do that, and make up a fucking chart like this goddamn, just give the ones that are well-known, and only recommend an order if the order fucking matters
@@zilentis1835 Not exactly. Majority of these books go into details about battles that primarily exist for context or to just give you more about your favourite faction. Really, only like... 10 or so matter. The rest just go into deeper detail about things, or go; "Hey so we understand the White Scars pretty much didn't participate at all, but you guys like them, so here's a few books about other stuff they were doing!" Honestly I quite like the bloat. But if you just want to get through the Horus Heresy, there's only a few you *need* to get through. Some reference events of others, sure, but you'll manage just fine.
@@zilentis1835 You don't need more than like less than a 1/3 of these books for actual relevant stuff the greater story, there's mostly just fanboy stuff about whoever guys you like.
I like how Lexicanum insists on calling it the Dramatis Personae. Like they're just dudes in power armour mate, you're not exactly writing the next Oristeia here.
i think the problem with heresy and the reason we've ended up with such a dumb book timeline is that heresy has a defined start and end point (the fall of lorgar and the siege of terra respectively), so while 40k has so much future to expand into with lore, heresy has to try and fit everything into the space of really only a few decades at most, meaning writers are forced to write such weird and convergent storylines. heresy just doesnt have the room for self contained stories like badab/damoclese/leviathan, it can only have very specific legion vs legion stories that are forced to tie in somehow to the progression from fall of horus to siege of terra
"There is some fucking amazing sci-fi; even the best of this book doesn't come close to" The truest sentence ever uttered about Black Library in general, and the Horus Heresy in particular.
I hope that once they finish the series, that they'll put all the books together into a giant several thousand pages-long tome and release that as a book.
You know that bit in TTS where Rogal brings out the Book of Judgement? I want that with Ben bringing out the megatome to a Tom who becomes catatonic upon seeing it.
@@Lectrikfro Honestly the first five are the only required reading I'd say, the rest add details but you pretty much have a solid idea of how things are when you start the siege. Yes there'll be plenty of references to other stuff but bare minimum would be the first five. Plenty of good books for solid stories, personal recommendations would be Know No Fear, First Heretic, Legion, Betrayer, Scars and Thousand Sons.
Currently 31 books in I'm too committed at this point I must finish all of the books, although I'm listening to them rather than reading them all, I'm also lucky I listen to them in work
I love it how fucking insane this is. Like if you're interested in Salamanders you can straight up just decide to read 2 books or 5 before getting to Vulkan Lives
I currently own every Horus Heresy book that've been released ( save for the Silent War and Old Earth). I'm 40 books into my reading journey that I started back in 2016. While I've mostly enjoyed the journey as a whole, there are certainly some duds in the series. Damnation of Pythos is thoroughly forgettable for example and sadly so are the First Two Dark Angels books (Decent of Angels and Fallen Angels). There are a handful of anthologies that have some hits and some misses as well. My rationale for reading everything was that I didn't want to miss something, a key piece of lore or subplot that would be revisited in a later book. It turns out that much of it didn't matter and I naively didn't predict that characters and subplots that I read about in 2016 and 2017 would get completely forgotten in my tiny little brain in 2022 and 2023. So I often have found myself looking up character and worlds etc on Wikipedida in order to jog my memory. While the series is a slog, every time I hear little teasers and reviews about how good the Siege of Terra series is, I get revitalized to get reading. Part of me wishes that flow chart was available when I started, perhaps I would've had a fair less WTF?! moments.
@@salvation122 I mostly agree with you. But I will say that I enjoyed the majority of the books I read. As I mentioned above there were some books that were terrible, but I really wanted to avoid spoilers so I didn't dive into reviews too much. Even so, some of the books that I've since read and enjoyed, I've heard are a waste of time. Tallarn for example is a really cool story that offers very little in terms of relevance to the overall HH plot, but I found it well written and interesting. Other books (Legion and Path of Heaven) that are revered almost universally, I hated. 48 books in and counting......
@@necrometicsonofthelion I’m 48 and bought my first 40K mini in nearly 25 years ago, so hardly a sweet summer child, but I digress. Currently reading the Burried Dagger by James Swallow. He seems to care quite a bit about the painting a picture of the events that lead to inevitable fall of the Death Guard. So far it’s great. Flight of the Eisenstein is my favorite book in the series and he’s the perfect Death Guard author (Garro was really good too).
“Dont worry! Its gonna end! Look: the end. Vol1” when does the end, end? How many volumes does the end have? If the first end book ends and leads onto another end book, is the first book really an end? I have many questions
I want to see if they can outdo attack on titan Anime for making the end last. In that show we have attack on titan season 4 the final season part 1, part 2 and part 3 part 1 and part 2.
I think Flight of the Eisenstein onwards you start to think "the trilogy is over. Now it's just tons and tons of bad filler with a few gems, and this will go on until we get to the second trilogy which is the Siege of Terra" Like seriously, the quality falls severely when it's not done by the one or two good writers they hired
The Horus Heresy could have been way fewer books. Flight of the Eisenstein for example is a completely meaningless book. That whole book could have been like 2 fucking sentences. "They discover the treachery. They run away to terra". It could have been like 6 books and still covered all of the important battles of the Heresy.
Yes, but now we get to know how often Ferrus Manus scratched his arse. Because romantic eras of myth and legend are always made better by hyperfocus on the minutiae.
Reminder that there are more books about single chapters of space marines than there are about the entire Eldar faction. Craftworld, Drukhari, Harlequin, Exodite and Corsaire, all combined. The Eldar have existed since the 80s, which makes it even more painful. And xenos books should get highlighted more, because in recent times some of the best books have been xenos books (looking at you, The Infinite and the Divine). I can only dream of a day The War in Heaven gets highlighted the way the Horus Heresy did, but I also kinda don't want to see that cause the War in Heaven is truly of mythical proportions, and putting it to words would just... Lessen it.
I love how everything about 40k makes me love it even more, the good bad and everything in between. It's so over the top and amazing, and the reality of it's content are as equally staggering. Trying to even make light of 40k, goes along with everything that it is. Outstanding. That's a year of books reading as a hobby. Not too bad.
At 62 books that's more books than weeks in a year! It unironically might take the better part of a decade to finish the HH if you read almost anything else as well.
I’m like 30 books in and it’s a good time (: I consider it many smaller series as opposed to one GIANT series (: more like a setting than a continuous story
Can't believe Ben would so brazenly spoil the dramatic plot twist at 3:53 that Xenut Sul, 5th bearer of the words and 9th heir 2nd removed to the book of words, is indeed unburdened
It is quite ridicoulous haha, when i decided to start reading the heresy i layed a plan for the books i was going to read, based on convos with friends that if not all of them, had atleast read most of them. My list is a tiny bit random, but i thought i would share it: It goes like this: The first 4 books Fulgrim The First Heretic Know no fear Betrayer Praetorian of Dorn Master of Mankind Slave to Darkness The buried dagger Then it moves onto the Siege of Terra series, where it is basically all of them including Garro : Knight of Grey
I'm about half way through, and it's really not. I'm sure you did what I am doing. Reading them in the order they are numbered. I do have to admit that it did take a bit of getting used to the fact that they are not in chronological order and often cover the same events from different perspectives. I find it interesting how my attitudes to the various factions changed though. Reading the Thousand Sons book made me hate the Space Wolves, but then later reading the attack on Prospero from the Space Wolves point of view made me like them again.
@@AAhmou True, but Thousand Sons are my favourite legion and I went from liking to absolutely hating the Space Wolves after the first book to liking them again after the second.
@@SarthorS "half way through" ah, you are entering the part of the Horus Heresy I like to refer to as ANTHOLOGY HELL. I've also read every Horus Heresy book and the last 1/2 to 1/3 of the series becomes just completely bogged down in side stories which go nowhere in the main plot (Tallarn being my main example of this) or are a bunch of anthologies. Thankfully, you're past some of the worst books like Nemesis or Battle For The Abyss but there's a lot of just... sludge to wade through. The Path Of Heaven is good though.
What they could do is have 5 books with the main parts of the heresy (until the siege of terra) and have the other books come off and call the "a saga of the heresy" that way you can read the main parts and leave side plots and xenos books on the side
THe Horus Heresy went from being this mysterious, mythological event in 40k's past with all these unanswered questions that kept things open to interpretation - to becoming the most over-exposed, beaten-to-death conflict in all of fiction. And not only that, but when the books first came you, I was kinda hoping they'd keep the novels to a kind of prestige-level. And the first three books are that, and some others are - but no, GW said fuck it and just slapped in a shit-ton of run-of-the-mill shovelware stories like their ordinary novels.
I don't think Games Worship realised how popular the book series would be, so there was zero planning involved. I've read Horus Rising (the only one) and even then I realised... this book, despite being the first one... is starting in the middle of the story? This was clearly a throwaway "we need more books" plan. And now its so out of hand they can't possibly reprint them with chronological order because they did so little planning there are huge gaps in the story still!
"Gordianius is my favourite! Do you remember when he had the bolt gun and he shot the heretic!?" - Actually succinctly sums up the problems with game-adjacent literature in general. You can't write a half decent book based on 'angry tank man pulls trigger'. Let alone 400-odd of the fucking things. Thing is, he's also absolutely right - a book or two on a genestealer cult, for instance, has the potential to be so much more interesting, because that setting is inherently more nuanced in its basic premise. You could go all kind of directions with that - thriller, horror, detective fiction, etc. There's opportunity for - take a deep breath neckbeards - subtlety. I mean it's not going to happen, but the idea is cool.
I've read every Horus Heresy book and I'm ploughing through the Seige of Terra. They're fucking brilliant books. Individually they might not outshine the most well known sci fi classics but the scale of this narrative allows for a type of storytelling that is utterly unique. I'll never understand people that call the series bad because there's too many books to read, try reading the gosh darn books and maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised.
"I'll never understand people that call the series bad" I can explain, those are people who have read any other kind of fiction. Like Ben says, even if you only read SF there are plenty of books out there that are better written than even the best of the HH series. They're really not very well written or interesting unless you have a massive boner for Space Marines.
You read books and enjoying reading, in general. Some people find reading as a chore. Even if they want to read the book, because they are interested in the story and details and what not. You have a large "reading book battery", tom clearly doesnt have one xD you know?
I've read a number of stories, told from a hive mind's perspective, that all found different ways to not be boring. And Tyranids do have a few characters. Warhammer novels are never from one person's perspective, it jumps around. Imagine a book from Deathleaper's perspective on a planet, and it's jumping between her, the Comissar she's hunting, and like a few handfuls of guardsman across various squads trying to deal with the bugs.
Really the problem with the series is that there's not enough books, and they rushed it near the end, you're already 50 books in go the full mile crank out a round hundred
The whole point of the Horus Heresy series is that it's the basis of 40k. It's about the setting more than anything else. It's an indulgence in world-building and that's what makes it fascinating.
You already know everything you need to know about the Horus Heresy. Half the lads got spikey and half the lads defended the emperlord. Horus did a die. Emperlord had a sad. Now sat on gold seat. The Heresy Novels add nothing to the mythology except contrivance after contrivance. They turn a romantic era of myth and legend into a blow by blow soap opera among emotionless non events and Super Duper Special Never-Die Magic People. Seriously, avoiding these books and the damage they do to the setting is honestly better for your sanity.
>"Chadmarines that fuck. They're over here." > Hovers over Ultramarines Fucking is not in the Codex, Ben, and we all know the Ultramarines are Codex obsessed.
The true madness sets in when you take a closer look into the timeline: You will have an event address in Book 22...as a prequel to and event addressed in book 16. You will have a plot point brought up in Book 22...and not picked back up until Book 35. You will have two events happening at the same time. One from Book 16 and the other from Book 33.
I’m literally just reading whatever Horus heresy books I’m coming across in charity shops. I’ve watched enough lore to know the timeline so can put it together that way plus the books cover a general overview of previous plot points anyway as the book progresses
as someone reading the books in order of release im really enjoying it, but i very much understand why someone would only want to read on the legions or characters they like
So out of pure chaos i asked chat gpt to write a first paragraph of a horus heresy novel and here it is!! **Title: Shadows of the Past** **Chapter One: The Last Light** The air was thick with ash, a mournful reminder of what had been. Once, this world had thrived, its cities glimmering under the radiant sun. Now, it lay in ruins, smothered beneath a sky choked with smoke and despair. The remnants of the Imperial Fists fortress-monastery stood like a defiant sentinel amidst the desolation, its battered walls echoing the remnants of a once-unbreakable resolve. Captain Vexian strode through the charred halls, his power armor a dull gold against the backdrop of destruction. Each footfall resonated with the weight of his duty and the ghosts of his fallen brothers. His helm’s visor displayed data feeds of the ongoing war, flickering with reports of engagements and losses. The losses had been staggering, the loyalist forces besieged on all fronts. He paused before a shattered mural depicting the Emperor, his visage radiant and unyielding. Vexian reached out, tracing the contours of the artwork with a gloved hand. “What would you do now, my lord?” he murmured, though he knew the answer was lost to time. “Captain,” came a voice, slicing through the silence. It was Sergeant Helios, his face etched with fatigue but his eyes burning with determination. “The last of our forces is regrouping at the eastern bastion. We can still hold them off. For now.” Vexian nodded, though doubt gnawed at him. “And what of the reports from Terra? Do we still receive messages from the Council?” Helios shook his head, a grimace twisting his features. “No clear word. It’s as if the fabric of the Imperium is unraveling. Our brothers have turned against us. The traitors grow bolder by the day.” Vexian’s heart sank. The thought of brother fighting brother was anathema to everything he had ever known. “We must hold. We must remember what we fight for.” “Always, Captain,” Helios replied, his voice steady. “But we need a plan. The traitors have begun to flank us. If we do not act, we will be overwhelmed.” As the two brothers strategized, the distant rumble of artillery echoed like thunder across the desolate landscape. Vexian’s mind wandered to his fallen brothers, their faces flashing before him-brothers-in-arms he had trained with, fought beside, shared victories and defeats with. Each name was a weight on his conscience, a reminder of the oath he had taken. “Vexian,” Helios said, pulling him from his reverie. “We can’t dwell on the past. We need to focus on the fight ahead.” With a sharp nod, Vexian refocused his mind. “You’re right. We will draw them into the ruins. The narrow corridors will give us the advantage. We’ll take our stand at the heart of the monastery.” Helios’s expression brightened, the glint of hope igniting in his eyes. “I’ll gather the remaining squads. We can fortify our position.” As the sergeant turned to leave, Vexian caught his arm, stopping him for a moment. “Helios, if we fall, remember our duty. We are the Emperor’s wrath. No matter what happens, we stand united.” “Always, Captain,” Helios affirmed, his voice firm. “We will endure.” Vexian released his grip, watching as Helios disappeared into the shadows of the ruin. Alone now, he took a moment to reflect, the weight of destiny pressing heavily on him. The war was not just for survival; it was for the very soul of humanity. As he moved toward the command chamber, Vexian felt the flicker of hope mingled with the dread of impending doom. The last light of the Imperial Fists flickered like a candle in the darkness. They would fight, not just for victory but to honor those who had fallen, to keep alive the ideals they once stood for. And in that moment, he knew that even amidst betrayal and despair, they would rise again-like the sun breaking through the ashes of twilight.
When I began reading W40k I wanted to start with the Horus Heresy. I found a similar graph, decided to make an effort to try to read them in a chronological order, (as much as possible), made a respective list and went on with it. Didn't read all but many and while they are of course hit and miss, and vary greatly by author and topic, there are a surprising lot of real hits in there.
![True Size of a Space Marine Chapter [999.M41] (Part 1) 3D Documentary](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/88NDRvAHWd4/mqdefault.jpg)
Absolutely primal scream from tom there, the warp truly overtook him
Emperor protect him
Khorne straightened up a bit
"The first 4 books, they are chronological, so that's easy. Things get interesting when you get to book 5"
*SCREAMS*
This has the same energy as John Mulaney’s Salt and Pepper diner joke and, “So the fifth time’s the kicker!”
I want Tom to get a deal with Audible to read all the Heresy books now
I want this, and I would probably listen to it in my off time, but I also don't want Tom to die. This would have to be his final project before retirement.
@@flithbrin He gets the deal and then proceeds to buy more asian dice for himself
And then make a video similar to "I read every Halo novel and became the Master Chief of loneliness".
f yeah. imagine how gooood at reading out loud by the end.
Amazon would have to stop its space program to provide enough funding for this I feel 🤣
Imagine you have a friend who is really into warhammer, and you ask them for a book reccomendation, and they whip out this chart.
I have this friend...I asked the wrong question at a pub once and now I'm 36 books into the heresy
@@rileymellor5209 I've read all 34 Halo books, and I was tempted to start HH, so I was curious: after so many books, there's some Halo books I just genuinely remember nothing about lol, so with that many books in, do you come across references to the previous books that you just completely forgot about or flat out don't remember?
flat out stupid
imagine someone is recommending Grim Brothers' tales, and for some reason they assume that chronological order is a good basis to do that, and make up a fucking chart like this
goddamn, just give the ones that are well-known, and only recommend an order if the order fucking matters
@@zilentis1835 Not exactly. Majority of these books go into details about battles that primarily exist for context or to just give you more about your favourite faction.
Really, only like... 10 or so matter. The rest just go into deeper detail about things, or go; "Hey so we understand the White Scars pretty much didn't participate at all, but you guys like them, so here's a few books about other stuff they were doing!"
Honestly I quite like the bloat. But if you just want to get through the Horus Heresy, there's only a few you *need* to get through. Some reference events of others, sure, but you'll manage just fine.
@@zilentis1835 You don't need more than like less than a 1/3 of these books for actual relevant stuff the greater story, there's mostly just fanboy stuff about whoever guys you like.
Tom getting angory about something completely nonsensical is an absolute treat to witness.
i would have loved to have seen bens reaction when he discovered this knowing what he was going to do with it.
Angory Tom becoming Angrony Tom?
When you love something, and deeply fucking loathe every iota at the same time, for almost exactly similar reasons as you love it.
welcome to games workshop leave your wallet in the bin
That's when you've crossed from an enjoyer to a true fan.
I like how Lexicanum insists on calling it the Dramatis Personae. Like they're just dudes in power armour mate, you're not exactly writing the next Oristeia here.
Tom is completely done with this chart the moment he sees it.
Tom pulls it up at 0:11. Tom is literally facepalming at 0:14.
three seconds. he lasted _three seconds._ ahahaa
I love the glee in Ben’s voice as he pulls the pin and throws the granade.
he just knows. ahaha
i have a problem, I saw the chart and thought "I should read the Horus Heresy this looks fun"
I'm working on completing my collection, but this chart is genuinely useful!
@@sebastianrubin7476 Glad my chart has helped! :)
same lol
I think therefore you should refer to Tom's chart at 2:02
@@trigun630 you don't have a problem. You are just a cut above the rest.
"Wave assault of fiction" is an amazing line.
I'm on book 47 and I can say with perfect confidence that I have not the slightest fuckin clue what is going on
@Meek_Little_Mouse there's this guy called Horus Heresy and he wants to kill his dad or something
@@spaghettimkay5795 and his dad has to collect all 40000 warhammers to stop him
@@TheStargov And his brother walks into space an*s because he got super depressed.
All you need to know is it's all erebus's fault, fuck that guy, kharn is a swell guy and argel Tal was a god damn angel
@@Meek_Little_Mouse I mean neither did the loyalist but at least they won right?
I love how you can literally watch Tom's blood pressure rise lmao, look how red he is at 0:48 compared to before the chart
Such a great catch, I had to rewatch it and he straight up chameleons it
The Black Rage kicked in
can press '1' and '0' to swap back and forth
The Primal "FFUUUUUUU" after the mention of book 5 is something I want to see in a compilation
That came from the heart
i think the problem with heresy and the reason we've ended up with such a dumb book timeline is that heresy has a defined start and end point (the fall of lorgar and the siege of terra respectively), so while 40k has so much future to expand into with lore, heresy has to try and fit everything into the space of really only a few decades at most, meaning writers are forced to write such weird and convergent storylines. heresy just doesnt have the room for self contained stories like badab/damoclese/leviathan, it can only have very specific legion vs legion stories that are forced to tie in somehow to the progression from fall of horus to siege of terra
The long dark "FFFF****CK" of the soul 🤣🤣
I had to rewatch the first minute just for his reaction to the chart haha
the comedic timing of ben anticipating and Tom uttering the scream is why i love this duo
Horus Heresy HOI4 Focus Tree
@@robertward2655 how long does it take to research all of them
The "End - Volume 1" had me fucking dying
That chart represents an awful lot of work and reading so props to whoever made it.
I'd kill for a unification wars series!
Stop giving them ideas!
Sounds more interesting than the HH books tbf.
"There is some fucking amazing sci-fi; even the best of this book doesn't come close to" The truest sentence ever uttered about Black Library in general, and the Horus Heresy in particular.
I think Warhammer has SOME top tier books, but yeah, a lot of it is just... there.
I hope that once they finish the series, that they'll put all the books together into a giant several thousand pages-long tome and release that as a book.
Complete with its own internal chart alongside the index and table of contents
@@Spiker985Studios As well as complete Book of Lorgar and Codex Astartes as a bonus.
Several thousand? I'm betting this is at least 10 thousand pages
The Book of Grudges would be a shorter read.
You know that bit in TTS where Rogal brings out the Book of Judgement? I want that with Ben bringing out the megatome to a Tom who becomes catatonic upon seeing it.
As some who finished the fourth Horus Heresy book, this afternoon, I’m laughing my butt off at this! Ffs GW
I'm 2 books in. Now I'm going to need to find the shortest path through the chart to get to the siege because I wanted entertainment, not a career
@@Lectrikfro Honestly the first five are the only required reading I'd say, the rest add details but you pretty much have a solid idea of how things are when you start the siege. Yes there'll be plenty of references to other stuff but bare minimum would be the first five. Plenty of good books for solid stories, personal recommendations would be Know No Fear, First Heretic, Legion, Betrayer, Scars and Thousand Sons.
@@collecter343 Thanks!
@@Lectrikfro If you read Scars the good follow up is the Path of Heaven, then you can seamlessly go to Siege of Terra.
Currently 31 books in I'm too committed at this point I must finish all of the books, although I'm listening to them rather than reading them all, I'm also lucky I listen to them in work
Watching Tom's soul leave his body.
you know something is bad when tom is like "ya know what? we need more books on the eldar and the Tau!"
I love it how fucking insane this is. Like if you're interested in Salamanders you can straight up just decide to read 2 books or 5 before getting to Vulkan Lives
0:14
Ben:So you want to read the Horus heresy
Tom, in his heart of hearts: no
Wave assaulted by media feels like the Disney strategy
I currently own every Horus Heresy book that've been released ( save for the Silent War and Old Earth). I'm 40 books into my reading journey that I started back in 2016. While I've mostly enjoyed the journey as a whole, there are certainly some duds in the series. Damnation of Pythos is thoroughly forgettable for example and sadly so are the First Two Dark Angels books (Decent of Angels and Fallen Angels). There are a handful of anthologies that have some hits and some misses as well. My rationale for reading everything was that I didn't want to miss something, a key piece of lore or subplot that would be revisited in a later book. It turns out that much of it didn't matter and I naively didn't predict that characters and subplots that I read about in 2016 and 2017 would get completely forgotten in my tiny little brain in 2022 and 2023. So I often have found myself looking up character and worlds etc on Wikipedida in order to jog my memory. While the series is a slog, every time I hear little teasers and reviews about how good the Siege of Terra series is, I get revitalized to get reading. Part of me wishes that flow chart was available when I started, perhaps I would've had a fair less WTF?! moments.
Are you talking about the -> Idiot chart?
Honestly you can easily cut half of that chart and not miss much
@@salvation122 I mostly agree with you. But I will say that I enjoyed the majority of the books I read. As I mentioned above there were some books that were terrible, but I really wanted to avoid spoilers so I didn't dive into reviews too much. Even so, some of the books that I've since read and enjoyed, I've heard are a waste of time. Tallarn for example is a really cool story that offers very little in terms of relevance to the overall HH plot, but I found it well written and interesting. Other books (Legion and Path of Heaven) that are revered almost universally, I hated. 48 books in and counting......
Sweet summer child. Still believing that the authors actually cared about their characters and good plot in the siege xD
@@necrometicsonofthelion I’m 48 and bought my first 40K mini in nearly 25 years ago, so hardly a sweet summer child, but I digress. Currently reading the Burried Dagger by James Swallow. He seems to care quite a bit about the painting a picture of the events that lead to inevitable fall of the Death Guard. So far it’s great. Flight of the Eisenstein is my favorite book in the series and he’s the perfect Death Guard author (Garro was really good too).
“Dont worry! Its gonna end! Look: the end. Vol1” when does the end, end? How many volumes does the end have? If the first end book ends and leads onto another end book, is the first book really an end? I have many questions
At least if they are numbered I won't need a chart to get through The End.... right?
right? 🥺
I want to see if they can outdo attack on titan Anime for making the end last. In that show we have attack on titan season 4 the final season part 1, part 2 and part 3 part 1 and part 2.
@@matthewstringer5675 The Siege of Terra is practically that.
@@AAhmou I bet they do the great scouring after siege of terra, so the end isn’t even the end 😂
@@TechnoGhosty from the future: 3
I think Flight of the Eisenstein onwards you start to think "the trilogy is over. Now it's just tons and tons of bad filler with a few gems, and this will go on until we get to the second trilogy which is the Siege of Terra"
Like seriously, the quality falls severely when it's not done by the one or two good writers they hired
I love how you can literally see Tom's brain just implode at the start.
This is such a iconic and beautiful moment, I watched it three times already and it gets funnier every time.
I am in the process of reading the 297 Forgotten Realms novels so I can't be too mad with this chart
Edit: I'm at 120 but there are now 300 novels
@@TheGIJew. I wish you luck on your journey
The Horus Heresy could have been way fewer books. Flight of the Eisenstein for example is a completely meaningless book. That whole book could have been like 2 fucking sentences. "They discover the treachery. They run away to terra".
It could have been like 6 books and still covered all of the important battles of the Heresy.
Yes, but now we get to know how often Ferrus Manus scratched his arse. Because romantic eras of myth and legend are always made better by hyperfocus on the minutiae.
I believe, it was originally meant to only be a self contained series of 12 books.
Reminder that there are more books about single chapters of space marines than there are about the entire Eldar faction. Craftworld, Drukhari, Harlequin, Exodite and Corsaire, all combined. The Eldar have existed since the 80s, which makes it even more painful.
And xenos books should get highlighted more, because in recent times some of the best books have been xenos books (looking at you, The Infinite and the Divine).
I can only dream of a day The War in Heaven gets highlighted the way the Horus Heresy did, but I also kinda don't want to see that cause the War in Heaven is truly of mythical proportions, and putting it to words would just... Lessen it.
I remember when the sole source of information on Horus Heresy was a four page story in the chaos book Slaves to Darkness. Now we have all this.
The primal scream of someone questioning whether to give up a hobby they've had for decades. 00:43
I love how everything about 40k makes me love it even more, the good bad and everything in between. It's so over the top and amazing, and the reality of it's content are as equally staggering.
Trying to even make light of 40k, goes along with everything that it is.
Outstanding.
That's a year of books reading as a hobby. Not too bad.
At 62 books that's more books than weeks in a year!
It unironically might take the better part of a decade to finish the HH if you read almost anything else as well.
I’m like 30 books in and it’s a good time (: I consider it many smaller series as opposed to one GIANT series (: more like a setting than a continuous story
This is going up there with Book Wars and Bonkers Brigade for clips of these two lads that will live forever in my noggin rent free
0:40
Here we see Tom channelling his inner Khorne Beserker
I've been listening to heresy audio books at work since my early twenties. I'm 30.
Can't believe Ben would so brazenly spoil the dramatic plot twist at 3:53 that Xenut Sul, 5th bearer of the words and 9th heir 2nd removed to the book of words, is indeed unburdened
I don't even keep up with 40k anymore, but damn it, they DO need more Tau books. The Farsight novels are great.
not 40k, Horus heresy.
@@d3north It's still part of the same universe it's not like Fantasy or AoS were they're completely separate timelines/universes.
It is quite ridicoulous haha, when i decided to start reading the heresy i layed a plan for the books i was going to read, based on convos with friends that if not all of them, had atleast read most of them. My list is a tiny bit random, but i thought i would share it:
It goes like this:
The first 4 books
Fulgrim
The First Heretic
Know no fear
Betrayer
Praetorian of Dorn
Master of Mankind
Slave to Darkness
The buried dagger
Then it moves onto the Siege of Terra series, where it is basically all of them including Garro : Knight of Grey
Thank you for reminding me I need to continue my epic journey into this madness
I have read literally all of these books.
All of them.
I did not even think about how complicated all of this was 😳
I'm about half way through, and it's really not. I'm sure you did what I am doing. Reading them in the order they are numbered. I do have to admit that it did take a bit of getting used to the fact that they are not in chronological order and often cover the same events from different perspectives.
I find it interesting how my attitudes to the various factions changed though. Reading the Thousand Sons book made me hate the Space Wolves, but then later reading the attack on Prospero from the Space Wolves point of view made me like them again.
@@SarthorS I read both books, both Primarchs were absolute idiots.
@@AAhmou True, but Thousand Sons are my favourite legion and I went from liking to absolutely hating the Space Wolves after the first book to liking them again after the second.
I’m the same, it’s really not that complicated.. it’s only 70 odd books for a 7 year war… it’s pretty easy.
@@SarthorS "half way through" ah, you are entering the part of the Horus Heresy I like to refer to as ANTHOLOGY HELL. I've also read every Horus Heresy book and the last 1/2 to 1/3 of the series becomes just completely bogged down in side stories which go nowhere in the main plot (Tallarn being my main example of this) or are a bunch of anthologies. Thankfully, you're past some of the worst books like Nemesis or Battle For The Abyss but there's a lot of just... sludge to wade through. The Path Of Heaven is good though.
This isn't even the most comprehensive version of the chart.
I have a friend who just got into 40k and was asking me for advice about novels and I just started laughing
What they could do is have 5 books with the main parts of the heresy (until the siege of terra) and have the other books come off and call the "a saga of the heresy" that way you can read the main parts and leave side plots and xenos books on the side
THe Horus Heresy went from being this mysterious, mythological event in 40k's past with all these unanswered questions that kept things open to interpretation - to becoming the most over-exposed, beaten-to-death conflict in all of fiction. And not only that, but when the books first came you, I was kinda hoping they'd keep the novels to a kind of prestige-level. And the first three books are that, and some others are - but no, GW said fuck it and just slapped in a shit-ton of run-of-the-mill shovelware stories like their ordinary novels.
You have to go through by author: Dan Abnett, Chris Wraight, Aaron Dembski Bowden are all genuinely good and most of their books are worth a read
Gordianius was truly a badass
@aster5767 Do you remember when he had the boltgun!? And he shot the heretic!? FUCK he was cool!!!!
I don't think Games Worship realised how popular the book series would be, so there was zero planning involved. I've read Horus Rising (the only one) and even then I realised... this book, despite being the first one... is starting in the middle of the story? This was clearly a throwaway "we need more books" plan. And now its so out of hand they can't possibly reprint them with chronological order because they did so little planning there are huge gaps in the story still!
I like how he talks about wanting to sum up the heresy in a couple sentences and I like that even with all this you still can
Why is it a tech tree 🤣
This video is still so iconic.
Who came to this after nisley said he was going to read Horus heresy on today ttt episode (15/10/24)
I have watched this video so many times and it never ceases to make me laugh
And once you have read them all you have forgotten enough about the original ones so you can go back and start all over again.
all tom wanted to do was entertain his friend's hobby and find some common ground
now he doesnt have any hope of ever having a social life again
"Gordianius is my favourite! Do you remember when he had the bolt gun and he shot the heretic!?" - Actually succinctly sums up the problems with game-adjacent literature in general. You can't write a half decent book based on 'angry tank man pulls trigger'. Let alone 400-odd of the fucking things. Thing is, he's also absolutely right - a book or two on a genestealer cult, for instance, has the potential to be so much more interesting, because that setting is inherently more nuanced in its basic premise. You could go all kind of directions with that - thriller, horror, detective fiction, etc. There's opportunity for - take a deep breath neckbeards - subtlety. I mean it's not going to happen, but the idea is cool.
This actually happened, they've spun off sub brands for "Warhammer Crime" and "Warhammer Horror" and the like
Space Marines are one of the most uninteresting parts of 40K. I dont get why they are so popular
Love a good Heresy Chart
I've read every Horus Heresy book and I'm ploughing through the Seige of Terra.
They're fucking brilliant books.
Individually they might not outshine the most well known sci fi classics but the scale of this narrative allows for a type of storytelling that is utterly unique.
I'll never understand people that call the series bad because there's too many books to read, try reading the gosh darn books and maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised.
Hard agree
"I'll never understand people that call the series bad"
I can explain, those are people who have read any other kind of fiction. Like Ben says, even if you only read SF there are plenty of books out there that are better written than even the best of the HH series. They're really not very well written or interesting unless you have a massive boner for Space Marines.
You read books and enjoying reading, in general. Some people find reading as a chore. Even if they want to read the book, because they are interested in the story and details and what not.
You have a large "reading book battery", tom clearly doesnt have one xD you know?
I have never related to a clip more than Tom’s fuuuuuuuuuuuuu%$ that sound it’s is the soundtrack of my life.
10 books on tyranids would be boring af. there's no characters, they just eat.
Wouldn't the food be the characters
@@obtainablespatula5389 Maybe one book done in the style of The Things, which is a retelling of The Thing from the perspective of the alien.
I've read a number of stories, told from a hive mind's perspective, that all found different ways to not be boring. And Tyranids do have a few characters. Warhammer novels are never from one person's perspective, it jumps around.
Imagine a book from Deathleaper's perspective on a planet, and it's jumping between her, the Comissar she's hunting, and like a few handfuls of guardsman across various squads trying to deal with the bugs.
I'm a trucker and I'm about to get deep into this if they are all audiobooks.
Bro Tom is a hair trigger away from falling to the Red Thirst
Really the problem with the series is that there's not enough books, and they rushed it near the end, you're already 50 books in go the full mile crank out a round hundred
1- Read "The infinite and the divine"
2- Read Cain´s novels
3-Read Eisenhorn novels
all of those are better
"the end...volume 1" XD
aka there will be more than one book about the end XD
The whole point of the Horus Heresy series is that it's the basis of 40k. It's about the setting more than anything else. It's an indulgence in world-building and that's what makes it fascinating.
Tom's reaction is the only proper reaction to this kind of shit hahaha
"The end....volume I"
the first 3 books started strong but the lore is betraying itself the more they write about it.
I agree with Tom on this, I want to read the HH but it's FAR to many books, I just look at all that and my mind goes far away....
You already know everything you need to know about the Horus Heresy. Half the lads got spikey and half the lads defended the emperlord. Horus did a die. Emperlord had a sad. Now sat on gold seat.
The Heresy Novels add nothing to the mythology except contrivance after contrivance. They turn a romantic era of myth and legend into a blow by blow soap opera among emotionless non events and Super Duper Special Never-Die Magic People.
Seriously, avoiding these books and the damage they do to the setting is honestly better for your sanity.
5:32 I bet the orks would really dig comic books. Lots of nice pictures to look at all the cool guns and meks.
And I thought figuring out the reading order for Malazan or Cosmere was tricky!
Just think, the horus heresy is just one event, taking place in about 10% of the lore. This entire chart is just one box in a chart of all of 40k 😱
It was easier for me to read all the 63 Heresy Series books than to read 3 Malazan books.
If you ask me - I would like more Heresy books, not less.
>"Chadmarines that fuck. They're over here."
> Hovers over Ultramarines
Fucking is not in the Codex, Ben, and we all know the Ultramarines are Codex obsessed.
he didnt tho? ultramarines are in the middle
@@wapniak666 Ah shit, so they are. I was watching on my phone and just saw the blue shoulderplate with a rounded symbol on it.
The funny thing is, THAT'S AN OUTDATED CHART! It's bigger now.
The true madness sets in when you take a closer look into the timeline:
You will have an event address in Book 22...as a prequel to and event addressed in book 16.
You will have a plot point brought up in Book 22...and not picked back up until Book 35.
You will have two events happening at the same time. One from Book 16 and the other from Book 33.
how can you not look at this and truly love that GW has given the galactic scale of the conflict a properly confusing chain of events unfolding for us
00:42 That belongs on r/perfectlycutscreams holy shit haha
I’m literally just reading whatever Horus heresy books I’m coming across in charity shops. I’ve watched enough lore to know the timeline so can put it together that way plus the books cover a general overview of previous plot points anyway as the book progresses
I've taken the challenge as of a month ago. Love it so far.
3:26 It's funny because thats how age of sigmar does it's backstory. Or at least its much closer to that than 30k or even fantasy.
Why is the chart not linked?
Where can we get the chart?
as someone reading the books in order of release im really enjoying it, but i very much understand why someone would only want to read on the legions or characters they like
Heresy books are the opposite extreme to book burnings
Anyone got the link to the chart?
Horus Heresy is one of those things that started as a cool idea, but just got completely out of hand.
So out of pure chaos i asked chat gpt to write a first paragraph of a horus heresy novel and here it is!!
**Title: Shadows of the Past**
**Chapter One: The Last Light**
The air was thick with ash, a mournful reminder of what had been. Once, this world had thrived, its cities glimmering under the radiant sun. Now, it lay in ruins, smothered beneath a sky choked with smoke and despair. The remnants of the Imperial Fists fortress-monastery stood like a defiant sentinel amidst the desolation, its battered walls echoing the remnants of a once-unbreakable resolve.
Captain Vexian strode through the charred halls, his power armor a dull gold against the backdrop of destruction. Each footfall resonated with the weight of his duty and the ghosts of his fallen brothers. His helm’s visor displayed data feeds of the ongoing war, flickering with reports of engagements and losses. The losses had been staggering, the loyalist forces besieged on all fronts.
He paused before a shattered mural depicting the Emperor, his visage radiant and unyielding. Vexian reached out, tracing the contours of the artwork with a gloved hand. “What would you do now, my lord?” he murmured, though he knew the answer was lost to time.
“Captain,” came a voice, slicing through the silence. It was Sergeant Helios, his face etched with fatigue but his eyes burning with determination. “The last of our forces is regrouping at the eastern bastion. We can still hold them off. For now.”
Vexian nodded, though doubt gnawed at him. “And what of the reports from Terra? Do we still receive messages from the Council?”
Helios shook his head, a grimace twisting his features. “No clear word. It’s as if the fabric of the Imperium is unraveling. Our brothers have turned against us. The traitors grow bolder by the day.”
Vexian’s heart sank. The thought of brother fighting brother was anathema to everything he had ever known. “We must hold. We must remember what we fight for.”
“Always, Captain,” Helios replied, his voice steady. “But we need a plan. The traitors have begun to flank us. If we do not act, we will be overwhelmed.”
As the two brothers strategized, the distant rumble of artillery echoed like thunder across the desolate landscape. Vexian’s mind wandered to his fallen brothers, their faces flashing before him-brothers-in-arms he had trained with, fought beside, shared victories and defeats with. Each name was a weight on his conscience, a reminder of the oath he had taken.
“Vexian,” Helios said, pulling him from his reverie. “We can’t dwell on the past. We need to focus on the fight ahead.”
With a sharp nod, Vexian refocused his mind. “You’re right. We will draw them into the ruins. The narrow corridors will give us the advantage. We’ll take our stand at the heart of the monastery.”
Helios’s expression brightened, the glint of hope igniting in his eyes. “I’ll gather the remaining squads. We can fortify our position.”
As the sergeant turned to leave, Vexian caught his arm, stopping him for a moment. “Helios, if we fall, remember our duty. We are the Emperor’s wrath. No matter what happens, we stand united.”
“Always, Captain,” Helios affirmed, his voice firm. “We will endure.”
Vexian released his grip, watching as Helios disappeared into the shadows of the ruin. Alone now, he took a moment to reflect, the weight of destiny pressing heavily on him. The war was not just for survival; it was for the very soul of humanity.
As he moved toward the command chamber, Vexian felt the flicker of hope mingled with the dread of impending doom. The last light of the Imperial Fists flickered like a candle in the darkness. They would fight, not just for victory but to honor those who had fallen, to keep alive the ideals they once stood for.
And in that moment, he knew that even amidst betrayal and despair, they would rise again-like the sun breaking through the ashes of twilight.
That scream needs to be a Twitch sound alert, holy shit.
I want the Tom and Ben chart where I can look up conversation threads, please.
When I began reading W40k I wanted to start with the Horus Heresy. I found a similar graph, decided to make an effort to try to read them in a chronological order, (as much as possible), made a respective list and went on with it. Didn't read all but many and while they are of course hit and miss, and vary greatly by author and topic, there are a surprising lot of real hits in there.
Coming back to this after today's Battle Report video. ahaha
id be curious if tom has read infinite and divine or Ruins two of the best 40k books in general.