Aside from chainmail they also wore gambesons or padded armor as well, in Italy I heard the the gambeson was popular to wear among some prominent businessmen, probably for protection. It might not have protected as well as chainmail but it would protect against glancing blows.
I love this! The beginning demos are very light hearted and fun, but then things become deadly serious by the end. Thanks for demonstrating how Medieval Longsword is not the only Western Martial Art being revived these days!
Exactly. These are techniques that were taught in fight schools all over Europe in the Middle Ages and Renaissance. A Martial Art is a codified system of combat, and this video details that quite nicely.
This is a really interesting! In theater and the SCA I've taken part in stage combat and demos using bows and swords, but I have never seen one that so effectively demonstrated period knife fighting. Thank you very much - this was both entertaining and informative!
Thank you for the extra depth. I will look these points up when I have more time. This is a topic and period of time that I have only recently became aware of and I appreciate any opportunity to learn more about it. Your points will make my searches easier. Again thank you. :)
Nice video you got there. You did a nice job mixing show with clear demonstration of technique and kept it realisic. BTW: Can you tell music is playing as backgroud? I really liked it.
In a "real' fight, you must close the distance more often than not. Being "at range" is dangerous, but sport fencers can play out at that range since a mistake doesn't mean death. In the historical manuals, a lot of emphasis is on closing the distance, since it's safer once you're inside. Those cross-steps are very much a part of messer fencing, and their purpose is to gain your opponent's back or side. The German group "Ochs" did a nice DVD on messer technique which shows it in detail.
I used to work with a guy from Toronto who tried to stop a fight outside of a bar one night, when one of the fighters turned and stabbed him four times: in the shoulder, neck, and arm a couple of times. He said didn't even realize he was stabbed until someone else noticed he was bleeding, he though the guy had just punched him.
@DiabolusIgnis What I heard by several blacksmiths in musea, "artisan villages" was that it was so expensive because it took ages to make and connect all the rings. Plate armour was expensive too because it required much more ores of metal and measuring to make it perfectly... That, I know.
Even so, the core design of Chain is to- in effect- turn the effects of a sharp edge very effectively into the effects of a blunt one, and nothing else. Chain is a soft armor, so it does not absorb impact as well as other modes of protection. And sharp points press between the links to spread them rather than having to cut through. A much easier time of it even if the mail is riveted.
You're right that not EVERYBODY weared chainmails. But the nobles, even the ones who weren't so rich, often weared chainmails. Mercenaries, knights and the regular soldiers also.
@ DiabolusIgnis Got a little question for you: have you ever made a chain armour by yourself? It is a big amount of time you have to invest to produce one. The next thing is the material! You need a whole bunch of steel wire to make these thousands of rings in order to get your protection! Maybe you are right and you don't need much skill for it, but the rest (material and time) makes it really really expensive!
Especially if you want to make real mail armour who is riveted. I know a guy who made a butted mail shirt on his own. Because of the use of comparatively big, unriveted rings, the weight was quite high and the protection in real life wouldn't have been that great either...
@elgostine There are also lots of techniques for the "Leibringen", the kind of wrestling they are doing and the fighting with daggers, sources would be Codex Wallerstein and the fighting manuals of Joachim Meyer and Hans Talhoffer. These can also be used for the fighting with a single handed sword only, because you can use the different "Huten", the different stances.
Most but not all medieval-renaissance daggers were heavily thrust-oriented and they needed to be stiff to have a good chance at penetrating mail.Thus they were usually but not always narrow and thick with quite high edge degree which doesn't allow for slices at all. Normal chopping would in most cases result in broken bones only(if the proper bones are targeted like collarbone, hand, wrist, etc). If either of the fighters have a dagger that can cut nicely as well, the fight changes considerably.
I think the point is to keep shuffling around the perimeter of the group, so that even though you are shoving them past you, by the point they're recoved you've already moved to have them back in your field of vision.
Chainmail can be pierced with a dagger as well as with a sword. It depends on you if you cut or pierce. If piercing is done strong, it´s almost like with a sword. Chain mail mostly protects against cuts, not against stab wounds.
In the 14th/15th century, chainmail was more readily available then in the centuries before, thanks to the introduction of plate. So it might be possible... It would take quite a paranoid guy to actually do it though. :P Quite a brilliant video anyway! Especially the group combat looked impressive.
Chain mail was expensive, but I can't belive that a full armor worth a village... I think it's extreme exaggeration. By the way Alexander, who wore the chain mail, plays a noble (he has noble clothing). This performance is very well made. They use techniques, based on codexes, and they presumably made lots of investigation, in order to be authentic. I admire their work a lot.
i likes the presentation of the sword techniques at the end. where can i find more examples of that, im hoping to do a comparison between european cut and thrust sword Vs the chinese jian.
About sambo, it included judo and various forms of wrestling. Some were Middle Eastern, some were Russian and some were European. Yes, you are right that the unarmed portions of European martial arts, as well the ones about the usage of and defense against a knife have survived. But in the battlefields of Europe, you would see polearms, crushing weapons like axes and maces and swords(and bows of course). Even sports fencing isn't close to rapier fencing! It's those weapons that were forgotten.
You can get this close, because they are usng messer's, which are mainly short weapons (sometimes only 70-80 cm, the average lenght is about 100 cm, the longer version, the krieg messer is about 140-150 cm, like a longsword) With such a short wepon you NEED to get close to cause damage, but it's true that you're always risking that you get hurt.
im not sure, but in garching we also train medievial fighting by wolfgang gerleigner, and he told us, that there could be reflexes to defend your left body side, so you have your hand behind... (ok, bad english, i know :P)
@Ketilbiorn the jian is in the realm of the 1 handed double edged sword essentially. often close comparisons have been made using the rapier though i was told the balance and form better match the arming sword and the like.
Quality video indeed, thanks for posting! And just to be pedantic Djemps, the final weapon they were using is an Arming sword, not a long sword. The longsword is a two handed weapon, but fantasy gamers have confused the name and attached it to the single/arming sword. Now almost everyone gets the name wrong, heh.
Very nice. I like how they seemed to compare european techniques to a few asian ones. I'd love to lean both. Both seem just as effective. Between the excellent grapples, and the carefully placed stabs... it's all very professional.
Hi guys. Swordlaches is correct. I was commenting on how great it was to see a quality vid of other styles other than Longsword. He is also correct about the blades at the end being Messers and not Arming Swords. You can tell by the way they place the off hand on their hip, the curved pommel similar to a machette or big knife, and the heavy tips (those are hard to see). Arming Swords were used with shield, buckler or on horseback.
True enough. But the takedowns shown are limb breaks as well, usually arm bars of some kind. Never take a knife fighter to the ground and "fight" him there. However, standup grappling is vital in knife fights. For the demonstration they have to do the takedowns/breaks safely, so the breaks are executed merely as locks. :)
Hi Bakerthan, The single handed swords look like German 'Messer' to me. Also, Djemps didn't say they were longswords, he said it was good to see something other than longswords being demonstrated.
This is amazing. Why don’t we see choreography like this in movies? Instead it’s just same ol’ headhunting, back turning and swinging at each other’s swords.
Asian based dagger styles are also quick and effective. But for a different type of dagger. Euro daggers were longer and double edged. exact opposite for Asian daggers.
Yes, modern military combatives include a large amount of European martial arts, even though most people think it's all jujitsu. That is especially obvious when you compare most of their techniques with those in historical combat manuals. There is also wrestling and boxing that was created by a rapier and quarterstaff fencer and originally included some wrestling. But when you talk about HEMA, what first comes to mind is swords, polearms, etc. that went extinct. Sorry for the misunderstanding :)
@Ketilbiorn thats good because like i said, i want to get a comparison between asian and european styles of using weapons that are as close in form as possible to each other. in this case comparing to the chinese jian, theres LOTS of demonstrable techniques for that, but european equivalents are hard to find, what other swords in your opinion might matchh the jian in terms of form and function.
Sorry for thinking, I do really enjoy these videos, and I'm glad they were uploaded because I find them to be very interesting to watch and learn from. But in this case I was only wondering if chainmail could be pierced by a knife.
I see what you mean on the indorphins, but I've been really hurt in fights and in accidents and the rush of adrenalin can make all the pain disapear. You can't think clear enough though to be effective in a fight, but you can take a beaten!!
Grappling is an important part of knife combat. The similarities between German Kampfringen and Japanese Ju-Jutsu are very apparent. There are only so many available ways to do things. Look on youtube for the wrestling of the medieval German master by the name of Ott and you'll see what I mean. The demo is a bit staged, but that's the whole point... it's a demo meant to entertain and inform. :)
@elgostine I don't know what you mean with "side-sword". Do you mean the predecessor of the rapier? Because that is a different style of fighting, which I can't tell you nothing about. But there are a lot of techniques with the 1 handed sword, with no side-arm like a shield or a dagger, so just the 1 handed sword on its own. A lot of them are in the fighting manuals of Johannes Lecküchner, which are fighting manuals for the 1 handed sword.
If you studied various Medieval Martial Arts could it actually benefit your Self Defence or Martial Art training? What is this Martial Art called? I was thinking of studying this and an Ancient Greek Martial Art (Used For Greek Olympic Games) called: Pankration.
This group is from Germany. I think they are doing a great job presenting their work in a 'foreign' language. A few grammar mistakes can be overlooked.
of course you're right. training personal defense against weapons is different from sports. i understand it's a demonstration, don't get mad, but the one blow straight attack thing isn't realistic as far i know, got it? ;P
Today we have the luxury of time and resources. Also, people train martial arts mainly as a hobby and stress relief, since there are other options for self defense. When martial arts were mainly used by the military, they got dropped because firearms were much more effective in large scale warfare. When people had to work all day to get by, they wouldn't really care about learning a martial arts, so they became extinct. The main reason they are revived is interest in heritage, not practicality.
@elgostine These are Langes Messer (sometimes called Großes Messer) techniques. One well known teacher of the Langes Messer was the german priest Johannes Lecküchner. Well, at least something I can be proud of as a German! xD
@mathewgivney If you look very close, you can see some text on the screen. It reads "Asian variations provided by a guest." You might also note that his techniques rather resemble some kind of Asian martial art, perhaps the Japanese art of aikido... I'm going to go way out on a limb here and say the two factors MAY be related somehow.
the left hand was the side you used to wipe after and was generaly not use alot ever in some countries its still that way and why you use your right hand to shak with
It's quite possible though, wearing mail accustoms you to weight and really trains endurance. Even if you don't get someone trying to stab you on your shopping trip it's a good fitness exercise. :P
Aside from chainmail they also wore gambesons or padded armor as well, in Italy I heard the the gambeson was popular to wear among some prominent businessmen, probably for protection. It might not have protected as well as chainmail but it would protect against glancing blows.
I love this! The beginning demos are very light hearted and fun, but then things become deadly serious by the end. Thanks for demonstrating how Medieval Longsword is not the only Western Martial Art being revived these days!
Great demonstration! All the guys are ready for tough medieval life :-)
Fantastic video guys, love the kit and the techniques are beautifully done.
Exactly. These are techniques that were taught in fight schools all over Europe in the Middle Ages and Renaissance. A Martial Art is a codified system of combat, and this video details that quite nicely.
What a great demonstration. Those watching must have found it so insightful.
Very cool demonstration. It would have been great to see it in person.
This is a really interesting! In theater and the SCA I've taken part in stage combat and demos using bows and swords, but I have never seen one that so effectively demonstrated period knife fighting. Thank you very much - this was both entertaining and informative!
that dagger toss was smooth. i didnt even notice it
Thank you for the extra depth. I will look these points up when I have more time. This is a topic and period of time that I have only recently became aware of and I appreciate any opportunity to learn more about it. Your points will make my searches easier. Again thank you. :)
I see Fiore's daga and abrazare here.
Nice work! It´s so cool to see the medieval figthingstyles reeappear.
This is Thrand!!! Awesome Knife work :D
Very cool. Most enjoyable. :) Keep up the good work.
hahaha that was really fun to watch!
Good techniques too--I like the variety.
I find myself to be under the impression that getting cut is rather a bit of a, say, once-in-a-lifetime experience.
Thanks guys! Great show
Awesome job, guys! Really cool!
Nice video you got there. You did a nice job mixing show with clear demonstration of technique and kept it realisic.
BTW: Can you tell music is playing as backgroud? I really liked it.
In a "real' fight, you must close the distance more often than not. Being "at range" is dangerous, but sport fencers can play out at that range since a mistake doesn't mean death. In the historical manuals, a lot of emphasis is on closing the distance, since it's safer once you're inside. Those cross-steps are very much a part of messer fencing, and their purpose is to gain your opponent's back or side. The German group "Ochs" did a nice DVD on messer technique which shows it in detail.
weared chainmail? weared?
+The Ball Sory, wored.
+0hn0haha Wore*
I used to work with a guy from Toronto who tried to stop a fight outside of a bar one night, when one of the fighters turned and stabbed him four times: in the shoulder, neck, and arm a couple of times. He said didn't even realize he was stabbed until someone else noticed he was bleeding, he though the guy had just punched him.
I like the section around 4.00 strikes to neck, armpit and thighs, the traditional places to strike against someone wearing body armour.
Music is overkill at the end lol
Nicely done, guys!
Intresting demonstration! :D
@DiabolusIgnis What I heard by several blacksmiths in musea, "artisan villages" was that it was so expensive because it took ages to make and connect all the rings. Plate armour was expensive too because it required much more ores of metal and measuring to make it perfectly... That, I know.
Even so, the core design of Chain is to- in effect- turn the effects of a sharp edge very effectively into the effects of a blunt one, and nothing else. Chain is a soft armor, so it does not absorb impact as well as other modes of protection. And sharp points press between the links to spread them rather than having to cut through. A much easier time of it even if the mail is riveted.
Great job! That was some cool Rockin!
The guy in blue clothes is really good
You're right that not EVERYBODY weared chainmails. But the nobles, even the ones who weren't so rich, often weared chainmails. Mercenaries, knights and the regular soldiers also.
This looks really impressive. Both yourselves AND your guest! What are you called, do you have a website?
Greetings from Langenort, The Netherlands
@ DiabolusIgnis Got a little question for you: have you ever made a chain armour by yourself? It is a big amount of time you have to invest to produce one. The next thing is the material! You need a whole bunch of steel wire to make these thousands of rings in order to get your protection! Maybe you are right and you don't need much skill for it, but the rest (material and time) makes it really really expensive!
Especially if you want to make real mail armour who is riveted. I know a guy who made a butted mail shirt on his own. Because of the use of comparatively big, unriveted rings, the weight was quite high and the protection in real life wouldn't have been that great either...
Thanks for sharing, very informative vid.
@elgostine
There are also lots of techniques for the "Leibringen", the kind of wrestling they are doing and the fighting with daggers, sources would be Codex Wallerstein and the fighting manuals of Joachim Meyer and Hans Talhoffer. These can also be used for the fighting with a single handed sword only, because you can use the different "Huten", the different stances.
Most but not all medieval-renaissance daggers were heavily thrust-oriented and they needed to be stiff to have a good chance at penetrating mail.Thus they were usually but not always narrow and thick with quite high edge degree which doesn't allow for slices at all. Normal chopping would in most cases result in broken bones only(if the proper bones are targeted like collarbone, hand, wrist, etc). If either of the fighters have a dagger that can cut nicely as well, the fight changes considerably.
I think the point is to keep shuffling around the perimeter of the group, so that even though you are shoving them past you, by the point they're recoved you've already moved to have them back in your field of vision.
Chainmail can be pierced with a dagger as well as with a sword. It depends on you if you cut or pierce. If piercing is done strong, it´s almost like with a sword. Chain mail mostly protects against cuts, not against stab wounds.
In the 14th/15th century, chainmail was more readily available then in the centuries before, thanks to the introduction of plate. So it might be possible... It would take quite a paranoid guy to actually do it though. :P
Quite a brilliant video anyway! Especially the group combat looked impressive.
Ah, okay. Thanks, that's precisely what I was wondering!
Chain mail was expensive, but I can't belive that a full armor worth a village... I think it's extreme exaggeration. By the way Alexander, who wore the chain mail, plays a noble (he has noble clothing).
This performance is very well made. They use techniques, based on codexes, and they presumably made lots of investigation, in order to be authentic. I admire their work a lot.
looks like much fun... reminds me I need more skill in not only defending from knife attacks, but also utilizing them efficiently and effectively.
i likes the presentation of the sword techniques at the end. where can i find more examples of that, im hoping to do a comparison between european cut and thrust sword Vs the chinese jian.
About sambo, it included judo and various forms of wrestling. Some were Middle Eastern, some were Russian and some were European. Yes, you are right that the unarmed portions of European martial arts, as well the ones about the usage of and defense against a knife have survived. But in the battlefields of Europe, you would see polearms, crushing weapons like axes and maces and swords(and bows of course). Even sports fencing isn't close to rapier fencing! It's those weapons that were forgotten.
You can get this close, because they are usng messer's, which are mainly short weapons (sometimes only 70-80 cm, the average lenght is about 100 cm, the longer version, the krieg messer is about 140-150 cm, like a longsword) With such a short wepon you NEED to get close to cause damage, but it's true that you're always risking that you get hurt.
@Ketilbiorn so are there ANY techniques for the 1 handed armingsword on its own? or even the side sword?
I love the "stab him with his own hat" technique. Priceless.
im not sure, but in garching we also train medievial fighting by wolfgang gerleigner, and he told us, that there could be reflexes to defend your left body side, so you have your hand behind... (ok, bad english, i know :P)
@Ketilbiorn the jian is in the realm of the 1 handed double edged sword essentially. often close comparisons have been made using the rapier though i was told the balance and form better match the arming sword and the like.
Quality video indeed, thanks for posting! And just to be pedantic Djemps, the final weapon they were using is an Arming sword, not a long sword. The longsword is a two handed weapon, but fantasy gamers have confused the name and attached it to the single/arming sword. Now almost everyone gets the name wrong, heh.
Seems fun!
Fantastic work really would not want too get on the wrong side of these guys
VERY good.
amazing!
Schön gemacht :-)
Awesome vid. During the Drunken brawl scene, where did those grappling techniques originate from? Any particular manual?
Very nice. I like how they seemed to compare european techniques to a few asian ones.
I'd love to lean both. Both seem just as effective. Between the excellent grapples, and the carefully placed stabs... it's all very professional.
Very nice.
Hi guys. Swordlaches is correct. I was commenting on how great it was to see a quality vid of other styles other than Longsword. He is also correct about the blades at the end being Messers and not Arming Swords. You can tell by the way they place the off hand on their hip, the curved pommel similar to a machette or big knife, and the heavy tips (those are hard to see). Arming Swords were used with shield, buckler or on horseback.
Almost feels like some Animus simulation with random NPCs
The left hand is held behind, because otherwise it could be sniped by a fast strike.
Hehe, my name is Christian too, and I am doing a "samurai" too :P Anyway, that's some really nice stuff presented here. Really nice!
True enough. But the takedowns shown are limb breaks as well, usually arm bars of some kind. Never take a knife fighter to the ground and "fight" him there. However, standup grappling is vital in knife fights. For the demonstration they have to do the takedowns/breaks safely, so the breaks are executed merely as locks. :)
Hi Bakerthan,
The single handed swords look like German 'Messer' to me.
Also, Djemps didn't say they were longswords, he said it was good to see something other than longswords being demonstrated.
This is amazing. Why don’t we see choreography like this in movies? Instead it’s just same ol’ headhunting, back turning and swinging at each other’s swords.
Interesting, I hadn't known that.
Interesting display.
Asian unarmed variations - key note.
I'm curious about Asian dagger contrasts - European seems very quick and efficiency based.
Asian based dagger styles are also quick and effective. But for a different type of dagger. Euro daggers were longer and double edged. exact opposite for Asian daggers.
@DiabolusIgnis I might be wrong about this but the ones I saw were 1-in-8?
Yes, modern military combatives include a large amount of European martial arts, even though most people think it's all jujitsu. That is especially obvious when you compare most of their techniques with those in historical combat manuals. There is also wrestling and boxing that was created by a rapier and quarterstaff fencer and originally included some wrestling. But when you talk about HEMA, what first comes to mind is swords, polearms, etc. that went extinct. Sorry for the misunderstanding :)
@Ketilbiorn thats good because like i said, i want to get a comparison between asian and european styles of using weapons that are as close in form as possible to each other. in this case comparing to the chinese jian, theres LOTS of demonstrable techniques for that, but european equivalents are hard to find, what other swords in your opinion might matchh the jian in terms of form and function.
Sorry for thinking, I do really enjoy these videos, and I'm glad they were uploaded because I find them to be very interesting to watch and learn from. But in this case I was only wondering if chainmail could be pierced by a knife.
Probably not, unless it's really thin, and it wouldn't go very deep
you can see and use some of these tactics in Assassin's Creed 2.
I'd like to see all of the most efficient parts of Eastern and Western martial arts combined...
lol! I would definitely wear one too though. Better to be safe.
I see what you mean on the indorphins, but I've been really hurt in fights and in accidents and the rush of adrenalin can make all the pain disapear. You can't think clear enough though to be effective in a fight, but you can take a beaten!!
Grappling is an important part of knife combat. The similarities between German Kampfringen and Japanese Ju-Jutsu are very apparent. There are only so many available ways to do things. Look on youtube for the wrestling of the medieval German master by the name of Ott and you'll see what I mean. The demo is a bit staged, but that's the whole point... it's a demo meant to entertain and inform. :)
@elgostine I don't know what you mean with "side-sword". Do you mean the predecessor of the rapier? Because that is a different style of fighting, which I can't tell you nothing about. But there are a lot of techniques with the 1 handed sword, with no side-arm like a shield or a dagger, so just the 1 handed sword on its own. A lot of them are in the fighting manuals of Johannes Lecküchner, which are fighting manuals for the 1 handed sword.
Excellent! I love the fact of including other cultures variations. *****!
If you studied various Medieval Martial Arts could it actually benefit your Self Defence or Martial Art training?
What is this Martial Art called?
I was thinking of studying this and an Ancient Greek Martial Art (Used For Greek Olympic Games) called: Pankration.
its the start of the battle bots show song thingy i think
This group is from Germany. I think they are doing a great job presenting their work in a 'foreign' language. A few grammar mistakes can be overlooked.
Oh, I really do. However, I'm perfectly okay with you thinking that I don't.
hmm some of those moves are impressing and usefull in this century too
of course you're right. training personal defense against weapons is different from sports. i understand it's a demonstration, don't get mad, but the one blow straight attack thing isn't realistic as far i know, got it? ;P
Today we have the luxury of time and resources. Also, people train martial arts mainly as a hobby and stress relief, since there are other options for self defense.
When martial arts were mainly used by the military, they got dropped because firearms were much more effective in large scale warfare. When people had to work all day to get by, they wouldn't really care about learning a martial arts, so they became extinct. The main reason they are revived is interest in heritage, not practicality.
whats the name of the one handed sword techniques?
We all gotta learn (:
@elgostine These are Langes Messer (sometimes called Großes Messer) techniques. One well known teacher of the Langes Messer was the german priest Johannes Lecküchner. Well, at least something I can be proud of as a German! xD
@clinicalpsychologist could you tell us what are your arguments ? Have you already read medieval manuscripts ?
Where was this filmed?
@mathewgivney If you look very close, you can see some text on the screen. It reads "Asian variations provided by a guest." You might also note that his techniques rather resemble some kind of Asian martial art, perhaps the Japanese art of aikido... I'm going to go way out on a limb here and say the two factors MAY be related somehow.
the left hand was the side you used to wipe after and was generaly not use alot ever in some countries its still that way and why you use your right hand to shak with
I love how the Asian counterpart's moves are based the same as a wrestling move known as "The Russian."
it means people long time ago wore it on the street,not today
Whats the first Music Called?
Is that Aikido later on in the vid?
Haha. I used to liket this song.
It's quite possible though, wearing mail accustoms you to weight and really trains endurance. Even if you don't get someone trying to stab you on your shopping trip it's a good fitness exercise. :P
Sure I have. By all means, you are welcome to your opinion.
Foolish though it may be.