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F-wits who drag their kids into the lies with them during the holidays are the absolute bottom of the pile of people

Calling the woman angry, tipical man.

We need to normalize vetting our potential partners better. People will lie. I hate that we have to be skeptical but we KNOW people looking for their next victim will LIE. If someone is making you feel wonderful within a few weeks or months of the relationship and seems "perfect", run! They are love bombing you!

Only the cheater has the choice to really change the situation; even if the other woman leaves, a cheater will find another.

My heart goes to that lady calling herself the other woman while she was a chump too. I can't believe one can live a triple life 🥺

I should have listened 10 years ago! It's never too late chumps... it's never too late.

Hi Sandra!!!!!! Long time no see! I love you and one of your affiliates took me into a safe house for about a week to get away from a psychopath ex, back in 2008.

Now, more than ever, women need to be recognized as part of the constitution....publish the ERA. 100%!!

That is a mighty story. This woman went through so much!

22:00 I think expressing your hurt and anger is very healthy and part of healing! However, I do see a problem when women are encouraged to cast the other woman as the bad guy, it often binds women ever further to the bad man. In patriarchy, women can be complicit with bad men, but not in control. It's very valid to be very upset with those complicit with harm, but in order to protect ourselves best from harm, we must protect ourselves most from those in control. The other woman is NEVER the 'but for' causation, the husband is.

"Surely you knew" is a subtle way of suggesting that "you should have known" ... it is one more way to blame the victim as well as self protect (this won't happen to me because I am smart enough to know if it was ...)

Really shity advices

Her ex-father in law is really shitty person

To the lady with the cake - I'm 25yo man but I somehow feel like if I was her. Her silence and giving everything to the "relationship" and getting only abuse in turn. The only difference is that she managed to bear the pain for decades. Mad respect for her, she must have been extremely strong for being able to live through it. At the same time I know that I don't want to end up like her, I have to stand for myself and don't let the toxic dynamics take over my life

"Freedom isn't miracles, it was just persistence." This is some great wisdom.

"Any fool can buy a shiny toy, real people give their TIME." 100%!!

Thank you so much for this video. I definitely have to research Sachs!!!

WHY can't you have the guilty party submit to a lie detector test? Refusal means DIVORCE. Taking and failing the test means DIVORCE. Taking and passing means onto step #2.

When the relationship with the plants are a better love story than the marriage.

Snoring FW, get a CPAP machine. Don’t want to, you’ve been served.

I didn't hear the 1 thing I thought would be in all the answers: Dildos! At one time after I broke up, I invested in a BUNCH of sex toys.

I replaced mine with dogs 😂

If there is anything you can rely on it's knowing the energy dynamic and when it shifts you need to be self and environmentally aware and on high alert

I hear ladies saying and things are so much better now. I wish I understood that feeling ...I'm almost 3years post D-Day and I'd never express that sentiment

I caught my spouse 8 mo. Pregnant with his AP. Living 2 lives seemingly successfully. It's overwhelming to think how much work it must be to hide for so long and all over this woman who is literally the bottom of the barrel in selection process. We reap what we sow

I found out because he thought he was texting his love interest, but it was my daughter. He was flirting with her and did a sexual innuendo. My daughter, who is an adult said I don’t think you’re talking to who you think you are. He immediately went into 100% denial mode , continued the conversation as if that never happened. As if it wasn’t necessary to apologize to your daughter for speaking to her that way! It is the most egregious form of gaslighting I have ever witnessed. When he got a hold of me he said he was doing me a favor by telling me because he was concerned about me.He obviously didn’t realize she had already spilled the beans. The gaslighting almost did me in.! But I’m beginning to thrive now. Thank you for your channel.! You guys are great!

I wish so many more women trusted their intuition, it's often the first and best canary in the mine

My wannabe narcissistic schmoopy intruded upon us by cyberstalking harassment of me while employing dating app manifestos and online messages within our child's disease community... And subsequently hacked devices in my house. To date I haven't hacked her like she did me... IT'S TIME FOR WOMEN TO LEARN TO HACK BACK!!! That level of violation is worse than any violation that fuckwit can perpetrate with his covert messages, porn and abuses.

'Cheating is abuse'.....these are the words I entered in a google search after struggling with my now ex-husband's cheating. It took me awhile to break through all the lies / gaslighting /etc......not only from my ex, but also from counselors trying to convince me the problem was my 'narrow view' of infidelity 😂 The reconciliation industrial complex is such a joke and reeks of desperation.

What a wonderful young lady and CL mentoring her on the predatory hoovering behaviour of the abuser (come closer so I can slap you - HOAC would describe it as Ted Bundy smiling at you trying to lure you into his car). This podcast started off kinda light and fun and by the end the rage of the victim was captured so well "these people should be in prison". The trauma is real.

I've only recently discovered the Chump Lady website and now subscribe to her emails which is how I found this episode. I admire women like Nell and so many others who are brave enough to tell their stories and, thank you, Tracy, for providing the platform, sharing your own story, and helping others to see that cheating really is abuse and that it is a double life. I loved when you said we need to clean up our language around cheating and just say what it is. I've never viewed my ex-husband's repeated infidelity through the lens of a double life and now I can't unsee it. That is exactly what it is. My FW was on dating apps as a married man - that is the epitome of a double life, right? You're work helps those cheated on process all the unfortunate drama of the reality they find themselves in, but more importantly, it's the "I see you and I'm rooting for you" mentality regarding the aftermath for me as well. Because like Nell points out, there really are few consequences the FW faces. I'm so glad I found your website and now the podcast. I wish I had found it sooner. My dishonest coward left last year, told me over the phone, after 24 years of marriage, after I had forgiven him multiple times years prior. I was so disgusted with myself for so long for "staying for the kids." And while I still struggle with that decision, that I now refer to as my doormat disease, I'm slowly learning to just let it go, release that bad energy, and forgive myself for allowing his repeated behaviors so that I can truly embrace what my current freedom means to me now. Our divorce was final earlier this year and it really does feel nice to just be at peace and away from him.

As a man, I want to thank you both for your stance on disloyalty. I am yet to finish listening to the story of Nell, but so far so good. Yes, shagging around may be a natural thing for the human male, but no Woman (or a girl, or animal, for that matter) should be a victim of it. If we learned to compose Baroque Concertos and Suites and sing Baroque Operas, draw and paint like Rembrandt and Velasquez, envision and produce Apple computers and iPhones, the UI and UX of the finest OS in the world (macOS / iOS), invent and write the code and jot up and bring into life a great hardware design, fine architecture and all the rest of it, then the best of us can curb their lowliest instincts, learn to Love, to sacrifice their instincts for it and to commit. If in nature the male's polygamy came at a cost - a daily risk of a cull by the competing males - then in the world of today, where no-one will slit your throat for shagging the woman he's eyeing - doing so is a dishonourable business. It's having a cake and eating it, too, at the expense of the victims of the male parasite's lust. N.B.: This is coming from a Man, by the way. A Man, who most minutely recognises the overt unsustainability of the modern sexual dynamics. A Man who wants to see Women Pure. Safe. Protected from corruption. A Man, who understands that the winners in this toxic, ugly dynamic are the ones devoid of capacity for Love.

Some corrections to a couple of your statements on patriarchy. The European patriarchy has for the longest time been supporting the idea of the sexual loyalty of either the party - not just women - and for the most part, in spite of the admittedly disgusting, parasitic natural proclivity of the human male (N.B.: this is characteristic of the vast majority of mammals - and as good as all great apes), the European patriarchy succeeded for millennia to keep people pair-bound. Sure, there were the odd skirt chaser who managed to go astray - and there were entitled scum (such as, for instance, many males-in-power, especially in the pre-Christian Europe), who would have harems of women - or would taint any women they cared to - but that "privilege" was limited to the scum in power. … then came the Marxism, the "Critical Theory", the "feminism", the heffner's trials that he conveniently won, the sexual "revolution" and the pill followed - and voilà: confused and brainwashed out of their natural proclivity and own interests, corrupted superficial females are flaunting high so-called "body counts"; dress provocatively; defy the need of a spiritual connection with, hopefully, a worthy man of choice - and all of this conveniently plays into the hands of whom? The oversexed, incapable of Loving a Woman, on a perpetual quest for a pair of breasts and a hole or two males. The rare man who actually can Love and is just as much the victim of this ugly, unpalatable, unendurable, grossly out of whack new status quo, who is doing his utmost to sublimate and curb his natural impulses to own harems and to shag about for the sake of a genuine, deep connection with his [would-be] Woman - is every bit as dismayed and at a loss as how to go about this all: no self-respecting man will want a confused, easy-to-get female tainted by a lot less pure than him, incapable of Loving Women, soulless - often physically, intellectually and otherwise insufferably foul shaggers. Nor do most men - never mind the best of us - want to settle on very mediocre women, when they have a type who doesn't match whatever is available. Or easily accessible. One has two choices: to betray his standards - and settle on mediocrity - or to keep seeking his respective idea of perfection, which (speaking on my behalf) is relatively rare (N.B.: I thought I'd found her - turned out, she merely played me, discarded, blocked and disappeared; I can just hope she's happy, safe and sound - and, most importantly, pure, immune to the virus of the pervasive sexual corruption that infects and renders worthless 9 out of 10 modern women). Then one has to contend with the promiscuity of most modern females. Some modern men may be more inclined to accept and forget the past of the girl or the woman they like; I personally can't: - Has she, at any point in her life, particularly, as an adult - been tainted by anyone I consider my obvious inferior? She's out! - Is she into posting snapshots in bikinis, monokinis, etc. on social media or elsewhere? She's doesn't qualify and is welcome to settle on some scum who's into exploiting bimbos. - Has she ever pandered to the whims of any of the millions of scum on dating apps or social media, who trick women into showing them their delights, so the manipulative vermin could jerk off to them? She's tainted, thank you very much: she's not an option, unless I make a habit of corrupting other girls at leisure as she was corrupted and owned like a remote harlot by some filth on social media, on Telegram or a dating app, while acquiescing in having her as a main dish or a side one. Corruption begets corruption. If she has no worth - then I won't bother to seek worth in her. For there is none. And the way I see it - there will be hundreds upon hundreds of millions of very, very sad, broken old women, who lost their aptitude to pair-bond due to the fads of our time, whose purpose is to ruin civilisation and the Sanctitude of the Woman along with it. Many of these broken women will be weeping at nights, because there isn't anyone to protect them, because males merely use them to satisfy their soulless, loveless lust and dump them, because of the painful deficit of tenderness, of Kindness, of understanding, of compassion and Empathy. Because one day most of these lost women will get to the painful realisation that the lifestyle imposed upon them through propaganda, rampant brainwash and subversion not only did not benefit them, but pushed them out of touch with their quintessence - and by then the time to reap what had been sown will be upon them. They'll be so fed up with being used and playing users (against their nature!) that they'll seek salvation in total abstention from sex, because already - never mind in 20, 30, 40, 50 years - the sole sex left - is the casual sex! The sex in Europe of the future (I'm hinting at the ongoing and intensifying with every passing day native population replacement) will lose that tiny bit of Soul that it still has here and there. Sure, there may be one in a thousand men like me, who doesn't touch a Woman without the hands of tenderness, the heart replete with overwhelming Empathy and does not behold her with the eyes of wonderment that pierce through to her Soul and stir it into frantic surrender, and placate it into Bliss - but such men are rare today - they will be a thousandfold rarer yet by the time we're old - or have found a permanent repose from this ubiquitous corruption of the society and morals of the modernity 2 metres deep under the soil.

Thank you for sharing your story Nell. I think you're amazing for setting such strong boundaries. You probably know the OW in my story, she also worked on Call The Midwife. It might not be clear who though, as her façade is all about "supporting women" and how she's a victim of a broken home🙄

If he met one of the cheating partners when she was still literally a child, she's a victim too. I also tend to see the affair partners as not so much handmaids of the patriarchy, but also chumps

Well done! You are Mighty! Thank you for your honesty! You are eloquent and well spoken. All FWs tell the other woman that their partner is inattentive and the relationship is sexless. I was with mine for over 40 years of sex at least 3 times a week. And he had a weekly hooker habit. He was in his mid 40s before he didn’t have sex with me the same day he saw the sex worker. And in his late 50s before he could no longer have sex the day after. But he got testosterone from an online doctor…. You are brave and mighty for getting out before you had kids together. And before he spent all your money! As a woman who could be your mother, I am so so proud of you!❤❤

Thank you for this interview, ladies. It's what more people need to hear. I look forward to Nell's podcast.

Something I think about reflecting on my own chump is the pride I got from being a martyr, that can be addictive in itself

The book beautifully and painfully captures how fragmented that abuse leaves you, your memories are chipped and shredded and apart

No job is worth that kind of stress. I'd be searching for another "dream job" in another state. Or preferably, country.

The point that cheaters don't display the normal levels of anxiety when they lie, and in fact display enjoyment sometimes is a great point.

My marriage has a lot of these red flags going on. 🤷🏻‍♀️.

Your discussion of charming people reminds me of this quote from The Gift of Fear, by Gavin de Becker. (Highly recommended for your listeners.) De Becker suggests that we think of charm as a verb rather than a noun. So instead of thinking, “He/she is charming”, think “He/she is trying to charm me.” See how that brings the intent behind the action into the spotlight

When they start treating their phone like Gollum treats the ring, cradling it and going 'my precious!' and refusing to ever hand it over, that's definitely a sign

My hot take is the message 'not ALL men are like that, there are good men out there!' is a dangerous message. Because think of how it changes one's decisions, if you say 'yep, this is just what relationships with straight men are like, they are not set up to help women', it lead to the conclusion that women should get jobs, focus on their career and education and friendship, buy their own houses, make family from friends and community, etc. Versus if you say 'well, there's some good guys' it easily leads to women expending gob smacking amounts of energy dating (so they can find that elusive 'good one') and 'working on their relationship' and going to therapy to process bad relationships and jealousy of all the women who appear happily married, and investment back into patriarchy. So in balance, I think the message, 'yes, it's all of them, just don't invest in partnerships with men' is the better rhetoric. Same way we don't mention jackpot winners when telling people to not gamble in casinos. The messaging should be 'just never gamble'.

Thank God I stayed on birth control with my fckwit!

Great book. Almost happened to me, but my husband's mighta- been schmoopy was our terminally diagnosed child's nurse who turned out to be a psychopath

17:35 So according to the numbers here, he starting getting with the mistress when she was at the oldest 21, and pregnant by 23 and he was in his 40s....also I don't know his profession but it's hinted he could be a priest or religious leader, further contributing to the power dynamic here...So really a lot of these 'affair partners' were victims as well, not at all aware of what madness they were signing up for. When the 'other woman' is so young, as they often are, I think they deserve compassion as chumps themselves.

To me, and other chumps, relationship counseling was very helpful just in showing how much the partner KNOWS they are causing distress, and how they have no interest in changing, and how that was NOT my fault. I think without counseling I would have continued to think, 'well, I must just be saying things wrong, I must be antagonizing them in ways that I must change.....' So counseling definitely gave me support and permission in walking away

Oh man I was *ruthless* with this. From day one, I wasn't having any Switzerland people. As far as I was concerned, if you were willing to make excuses for, or justify exes behaviour you were out. I cut friends I'd had for decades. Anyone who said they "weren't taking sides" - they'd picked a side and it wasn't mine. Anyone who still socialised with or was friends with him was simply not someone I trusted with any detail of my life. Ex was put straight on an information diet so anyone who still talked to him was out. To my mind, this was a very black and white issue of right vs wrong, and therefore the way people fell on this was a pretty good indicator to me of character. Or lack therof. Nearly a decade later and I don't regret a thing.