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I have a question about nibelheim incident. Of all people, why was Sephiroth sent to Nibelheim? Was that Hojo's plan? Or it was just by chance?

people keep sayin the new games are a sequel to OG, but i think its more like how you said it: a spiritual thing, those "timelines" are actually different versions of what things would be, what they could be, but not in a sense of time travel or multiverses, but used as a narrative tool to brings us all these emotions the game proposes to impact us with. In the end of it all, its all gonna be set aside and the things that happened in OG will be preserved, there wont be any discovery of how things happened after OG.

The ending of this video brought me to tears :(

Good analysis. But we need part 3 to see whole puzzle. Before that, its just assumptions...

I've enjoyed listening to this essay multiple times and it's kept me entertained while grading. I'd like to point on thing out as it relates to the human lifespan. The notion that nature did not "intend for us to live this long" is a bit of a nonsensical statement as nature lacks intentionality. I get what your saying but we have to be a bit careful when describing these types of things as we often attach human characteristics to natural phenomenon that is not capable of such "intentions". Anyway, thanks again for this really thoughtful piece of work! I'm sure I'll listen quite a few more times :P

The amount of times you repeat the same basic bitch shit has me feeling like I’m stuck in a post death loop for sure

Great discussion but I think it could be even better if you tried not to interrupt your guests so much. There were quite a few times throughout the discussion where you interrupted someone just as they were getting to their point, especially when SubTXT was talking. If you have a different point of view or something to add then let your guests finish and come back to it afterwards, cutting them off feels frustrating to the viewer. I say this with kindness and hope to see more videos like this in the future!

Last thing. This is a request. Could you go back and watch the Aerith dream sequence from remake. I think it’s interesting to watch now with new context… also she warns cloud not to fall in love with her… even if “he thinks it’s real”…. Could be a jenova clone foreshadowing…

Cloud is always the unreliable narrator. I don’t think he saved aerith. Similar to the old games cloud can’t accept reality…. But to be fair when he “saves” aerith there is the glittery light that seems to appear when history is altered

I agree beagleverse is the main reality… but isn’t Zack’s timeline the OG FF7. If beagle is the main or true timeline wouldn’t that make original FF7 the alternate universe. Based on the sequence of events

@joshiepoo2525 I understand you’re the host and you’re trying to guide the conversation but you got 3 of the biggest brains in the ff7 community you gotta let them cook. 42:14

Need another with Victor

One thing that I think isn't discussed enough...what do the characters in this world mean by "fate"? Media, especially Western media, has trained us to think of the word to simply mean predestination, a written out future, etc. But what does the word mean in the context of the Lifestream? Fate and multiverses were not really a theme in the OG. And I still think they aren't - at least, not in the way media has trained us to think about them. Just as they've cleverly reapplied the Lifestream to construct a different way of thinking about "multiverses", "timelines", etc., that is actually perfectly in line with the OG's themes of memory, human will, and collective subconscious, there's definitely something similar going on with "fate", which throws the whole way we should look at the Whispers into question.

When it comes to deciphering a story, Occam's Razor only works if you're acutely aware of what the author's intent is from all angles. Otherwise, what might seem like the simplest approach might actually be the one that's least constructive. There's a video floating around (I won't mention the title and bully the creator) of someone applying Occam's razor when his very, very obvious intent is hating Aerith's character and wanting her to be the fool, so that Sephiroth can be the awesome one outsmarting her all the time. That's an extreme example, but just beware of the dangers of seeking what you feel is the simplest answer - it can become a sneaky trap for confirmation bias.

Now we just need the crazy underwear transformation!

Honestly, describing them as bubble worlds within the lifestream is a great way to describe what’s happening. It’s actually the simplest way I’ve heard it described.

Personally I think Aerith's real death scene will be when the group returns to look for the white materia in the city of the ancients. The LS scene consists of recreating Cloud's identity. This is the climax of the game. FF7 is a game about it's hero's identity crisis. You have to put yourself in the place of a player who doesn't know the OG. In terms of narration and emotion it makes more sense to separate these two sequences.

Great conversation guys. Probably the least 'out there' discussion I've heard about the worlds. Clear, consise and easily digestible. Thank you all for your time.

This is a wonderful argument, and I’m inclined to agree (although I have my own shading of it like everyone else, but less on the themes and more on how they are/will be portrayed: I think Loveless is unironically going to be important here, G edition especially). One thing I think is dividing people is that Japan is a high context culture while the US is a lower context one. The English localisation is mostly British English, and the UK is another high context culture. For me, a Brit, the ambiguity and metaphysicality doesn’t feel extremely weird or confusing as our own media can be similar. I’m guessing it would be a bit jarring if you’re used to more direct storytelling (in the same way as US media feeling a bit jarring to me sometimes with how direct it can be). Really though for any story we must not be too demanding: they have a story they want to tell, with whatever message they want to try to convey. We can like or not like it, and can interpret it as much as we want, but we aren’t entitled to a particular story told a particular way. Art by the committee of public opinion is usually terrible and satisfies no one (least of all the artists, but also the fans).

That music transition at 14:45 was next-level. Well played.

I came up with a nifty idea after listening to this twice. You ask about the defeat of the whisper harbinger being the catalyst for all of these pocket worlds.. which could explain why these pocket worlds are all Midgar - because that is the location where fate is diverging. It makes me interested in - part 3 - when we return to Midgar - will we see cloud or Tifa slipping between the veil of these pocket worlds that have Midgar as their focal point. Mind blown 🤯

You guys are all getting a lot better at expressing and describing how we think the game story is working now with some months removed from release. 🎉🎉 gotta listen again.

How did I miss this 😂 welp watching now 🎉🎉🎉🎉 you guys need to tell me when there’s hours more rebirth speculation pods 😂😂 jk jk

Thanks for sharing such valuable information! Just a quick off-topic question: My OKX wallet holds some USDT, and I have the seed phrase. (alarm fetch churn bridge exercise tape speak race clerk couch crater letter). Could you explain how to move them to Binance?

my crazy theory is that we know what marlene said to zack "cloud tries to save her but he doesn't make it in time" so i believe he just stood in front of aerith unable to take control of himself and sephiroth kill her, but this time there is this green glow(lifestream like)+rainbow(rainbow= a change in the reality) that suddenly appear on cloud hands that then cover his sword being able to take control of himself and deflect sephiroth sword. i think cloud got help from the lifestream in that moment ( i think either zack or cloud himself from another world or the future) sort of like the ending of kh3 when sora save someone but we find out how in the DLC. (going back in time etc.)

5:16 just to clarify something here, in JP aerith says" this materia will surely save the world", also in the ultimania nomura mention that the words "the world will be save , but will you?" is intertwined with Aerith's fate. so its indeed about her and not cloud, also in the JP is "Will you be in the world i'm trying to save?"

Return/Reunite

Great discussion and video. I would love if you guys did a play by play of the final fights of Rebirth based on your current theories. The discussion got me thinking of how the fight transitions and what that means of the worlds/dreams. Like we go from the Jenova lifeclinger fight, to Zack and Cloud in what looks to be the Edge of Creation via white whispers. We then fight Sephiroth reborn, multiple times with the different parties seemingly between different worlds: Cloud (Edge), Main Party (forgotten capital?) and Zack (Dying Church). Is this a singularity event or just transitioning between worlds via white/black whispers. Once Seph reborn is defeated we return to Edge of creation to have our final fight with Sephiroth.

Loved the game why add this multiverse no need her death didnt even impact me because your playing with her the lack of bone village rockets town wuitie too they dropped the ball with a few things in the game overall still going to eat up part 3 but i mean story beat they are still at end of disk 1

In the most 'basic' of terms I think of 'fate/whispers' as the TSA from Loki, keeping everything moving down the intended path or 'sacred timeline'. People ultimately have the ability to change the timeline and create a branching reality but the whispers and the arbiter stop them. Sephiroth essentially tricks the group into killing the arbiter and now these 'branches' can manifest. I don't think these are like...purgatory or pockets of 'memories' of individuals for a few reasons, the most prominent of reasons being far too much seems to physically move/exist between them all to be just like metaphysical plains. NOW i think as a result of these branches, it's causing the lifestream to basically 'create' them whenever someone ends up changing the timeline, and whether it's due to the lifestream not having as much energy to keep the reality going, or Sephiroth's doing, some of these 'possible timelines' 'die' and the energy returns to the planet which Sephiroth is seemingly siphoning. I think what Sephiroth may be trying to do is use these idea of new worlds being created and then 'dying' as a way to continue the cycle of 'the planet' in perpetuity, essentially creating a world and maybe by extension, him, that can never die. I also get the feeling while Aerith is definitely against what Sephiroth is trying to do, she isn't exactly 100% onboard with the direction the 'planet' is going. It may be due to the notes of FF7 ultimania which suggest that humanity, 500 years after the events of FF7 has been wiped out.which is seemingly the intended path of the planet.

Maybe the heartfelt payoff that these worlds will have is that the bonds that Marlene has now made with Tifa, Aerith, and Zack, will allow her to trust Cloud. And this bond of trust somehow saves her life, like in a Midgar Raid situation.

“I couldn’t have dreamt that, it all felt…way too real”

I'd pay good money for SE to go ultimate troll and reveal that it was the OG that was the dream! Can you imagine the level of ape-sh*t that would create? It would make the shipper wars look like a polite disagreement! lol

What I'm not getting about the second theory is whether he's implying that as cloud saving aerith was a dream, is this implying that cloud is in the life stream? Wouldn't he have to be dead ?

Funny enough Nojima already made things pretty clear 15 years ago in the book On the Way to a Smile. Lifestream Black II: "So long as Cloud remembers me, I (Sephiroth) will always exist. Within the Lifestream, or on the surface." Lifestream White II: "She (Aerith) thought of Cloud, living on the planet's surface, in the corporeal world." Lifestream Black III: "especially when he (Sephiroth) realized it was his actions aboveground that had engendered it." "He (Sephiroth) tried to send his spirit above to walk the surface." "The three who walked upon the planet's surface were not him, and yet, they were." Lifestream White III: "She (Aerith) realized the one responsible for sowing all that hatred was trying to manifest himself in the living world." Granted this is from the English book, unsure how it differs from the Japanese. Nonetheless, we can see that Nojima draws a clear distinction between the lifestream in general, and a singular living/surface/corporeal world aboveground. I think the corporeal part is troublesome because in Rebirth we did see Aerith physically transfer materia into the surface world, but perhaps this was retconned for the remake and will make sense next game. Referring to the surface world as living is interesting as it proves that those within the lifestream are indeed dead in relation to those on the surface. This complements Aerith in Rebirth saying about Sephiroth "Dunno about 'alive' so much as... 'around'." It also preserves one of the core themes of the game pertaining to the importance of life/death and dealing with loss. All of this ultimately points to option 2 of your choices being correct, especially in conjunction with the additional in-game evidence you listed.

I’m coming down from the “burial being the climax of the lifestream sequence” thing. I think there will be multiple chapters of lifestream sequence, one with Cloud alone reliving Aerith’s death/burial, and later one with Tifa there, where he really finds his identity and realizes he actually did keep his promise.

I’m coming down from the “burial being the climax of the lifestream sequence” thing. I think there will be multiple chapters of lifestream sequence, one with Cloud alone reliving Aerith’s death/burial, and later one with Tifa there, where he really finds his identity and realizes he actually did keep his promise.

This was such a great discussion. Can't wait for the next one. 😎

Absolutely fantastic discussion, fellas.

Finally got to watch it all and great talk guys!

Great discussion. I could just watch hours and hours of these chats. Re Aerith/Omni-Aerith, I 100% agree with Clarke, Aerith countered Sephiroth's play for Cloud's mental state during the "death" scene. Also agree with Josh re AC - I want AC to take place before the end of the trilogy. AC and DoC existing after the remake trilogy will still be depressing af.

SE, please do not listen to the idea about AC precluding the RE Trilogy. 😂. No sequel please 😂

…tarded?? Mayhaps

⁸Great discussion! I cant believe all 4 theorists went out on the same "limb" together. : ) Beagle world is only the "current" main reality. Whispers and feathers do show up in other stamp(s) and both of these elements are indicators of fate. Ive outlined in a video we as the players SHOULD for the time being accept beagle stamp as reality with the caveat that it is really one layer removed from the base case of a recursive computer algorithm. This algorithm is appropriately illustrated using the Temple of the Ancients nested squares. Thanks for podcast, Im always looking for good discussion and theories

I can't tell if you guys were trolling about Lifestream sequence at this point lol but why are we trying to turn it into a group project and on a completely different subject?? It's not a group project, it's an intimate search and comparison of memories and private revelations between two people who have the oldest memories together for a reason. I think he will remember the death at Northern Crater, Sephiroth will reveal the truth and use it to further taunt and gaslight him and sow doubt that he's a clone without feelings.

I can't express how happy I'd be if Aerith survived this story. After everything she endured, after her life of trying to bring good to this world, she earned her happy ending. I'm tired of bittersweet conclusions.

This is a golden conversation. Great video! I have to agree with a lot of what is being said with the alternate worlds being manifestations. I loved the bubble analogy. It goes hand in hand with life 'stream.' A piece of lore I always remember is Cid in OG comparing the Planet to person, a sick young child. If a planet could be like a person with it's own thoughts, dreams, and reality, then if it became mentally ill, it might not be able to short out reality, like Cloud can't. I think you mentioned that you're still trying to work out what role the Harbinger of Fate played; I'm going to take a crack at it. The Harbinger might have been the big final filter that the Planet was using to protect itself from the illness. If the Planet and Cloud are in the same shoes, then maybe the Planet in Remake during the events of Midgar was like Cloud was between Zack's death and finding Tifa in the slums. It was very sick and exhausted, and barely able to put up a fight. When Sephiroth tricked Aerith and the party into defying fate, the last resistance might have cracked. The same way seeing the relief of see Tifa allowed Cloud to cave as the complex took over. But consequently, this action of the party might have broken the Planet's trust, even if it was done by Aerith's honest intensions. That dream date in Rebirth chapter 14 when she had her powers restored might have been Aerith's way of regaining the Planet's (a small scared child in space) trust. But it is so hard to say. I love hearing all the different thoughts and opinions and how they match up. Every time one of you guys drops a video like this, good thoughts are always shared. I'm not sure how all of this will play out. I'm not sure when and how the 'worlds' will remerge. But as for the personal payoff to the audience, I've noticed that now Aerith, Tifa, and Zack each have their own bond with Marlene. Big speculation guess, but I think by Midgar Raid Marlene might be a hostage and her life will be endangered by either Hojo or Scarlet, and her living will depend on if she trusts Cloud. By knowing Aerith and Tifa, and a part of her subconscious knowing Zack she will. Two examples: Hojo might notice some Aerith connection and want to experiment on her. Because of Zack and Aerith in the lifestream she might be able to somehow call out to Cloud and Tifa. Or Scarlet might be hell bent on revenge on Tifa for Junon. A child makes a good shield for a monster. Maybe she'll be in the Proud Clod against her will and she'll have to jump out and Cloud will have to catch her to cart her off, giving us a final motor cycle game in a burning Midgar, as the party deals with Proud Clod. Such a dangerous leap would take some trust. Just speculation though. I think you addressed nearly all the questions of the lifestream mystery. The only few I would add to this list are: what are the mysteries behind the Gi, how is Tifa able to see that flash of both realities when Aerith dies, and also (one of the tricky ones from Remake), how is Edge of Creation Sephiroth different. In other words, keep your question list, because it's great! Here's another topic with about as many questions as the lifestream: Shinra. How tangled is the wed that Rufus has sewn with Shinra, Avalanche, and Wutai? How much do Rufus's four loyal Turks know? What happens if the Shinra board finds out about all of Rufus's actions? How will he control them if they find out? Three of the staff know about Deepground, will they use this knowledge against him if trust is broken? What's the deal with Matt and Lucia? What's really going on in Wutai? There is so much to this game! Had a great time watching your video.