I am just going to say the best thing that happened to women was the “me too”movement! I hope all our daughters, nieces & grandaughters do not have to suffer the same indignities I did from junior high to Wall Street and even here on booktube. I guess some men still have not learned yet that anything inappropriate should not be posted. I too read the Belgariad not knowing anything about the author and loved it. I also love Ellison’s narration of Wizard of Sea… so not sure what people will do about Gaiman. I particularly dnf’d all my attempts at reading Gaiman before this news came out.
I've been a massive NG fan for years, and at first, I dismissed the allegations as someone trying to put him down. But sadly, they are looking more and more solid. As both an SA victim and autistic person myself, I'm pretty angry in fact at what appears to be Gaiman's arrogance. Will this stop me purchasing any more NG stuff, probably, and will it make me bin what I do own of his? Maybe. Though I can possibly separate the man from the work...Sandman, American Gods and The Graveyard Book especially being part of my creative life. It's devastating for fans, but even more so for those women (if the allegations are ultimately proven 100% true). There's a tiny part of me hoping that this will all suddenly be revealed to be a hoax, etc, but sadly, my gut is telling me otherwise.
I’m glad you made this video. I have been thinking about this for a few days. I think the first thing to remember is that Gaiman’s (or whichever author) guilt doesn’t transfer. You did nothing wrong by liking him or his work or for talking about it when you didn’t know. Now that you do know you have to decide what to do moving forward.
@@BookishTexan thanks Brian I don’t think I’ve said everything I wanted to say so I think I will attempt a follow up video, but I appreciate the support.
Society seems to think if you are talented (which he clearly is) then you can’t really be someone who does bad things. It is always a problem when we ‘other’ people. That some humans are monsters/damaged/unnatural. They aren’t. They are people. They walk amongst us: the murderers, pedophiles,rapists, abusers (not saying he ticks all these boxes by the way ). We both probably walked past one of the people listed on the way into work today. We need to talk about atrocities more not less. It’s the NDA’s that get me. Basically if you are rich enough you can make a lot of horrible things go away.
A huge lesson learned for me. Never truly believe the best in anyone. Because, chances are, they are going to let you down in some way shape or form sooner or later. Will I still read his work? Sure, but I’ll be reading his books second hand.
I really appreciate honest and open thoughts like this. It's been nice seeing the book community talk so vulnerably about the situation, rather than trying to hush it up. I don't know if anything will happen to Gaiman's career, even now that five women have come forward, but I know a lot of people as individuals have decided to either not buy or not review his work anymore (not that he's published a novel in years).
A lot of authors and artists I admire did some not so nice things in their lives. Unless an artist is actively participating in bad things from revenue received then I don’t see a massive problem still liking their work.
Just to be clear, Harlan Ellison was an abrasive character because he was forthright with his opinions and his values. One of which was celebrating the work and voice of female writers in science fiction. The other guy is, depending on where you source your news, associated with a series of sexual assaults. One recurring theme on this revelation is that is seems to have been a bit of an open secret within the publishing world and science fiction community. It actually disgusts me that he wrote the introduction to Ellison's Greatest Hits.
Yeah I don't know about the open secret thing but if it is, it would be like the cover up with Saville - people benefiting from the silence, which is awful.
Thoughtful discussion of a tough topic. I’m a separate the art from the artist kind of guy, though to me, it’s a little more difficult when the artist is still alive. I’m still going to read his books.
I think what makes this more difficult is the deep humanity found in Gaiman's stories. It seems like a contradiction of the man and his work. I can only speak for Sandman- the only other book I've read by him is The Ocean at the end of the Lane-where every story arc realistically and imaginatively described human history. William Shakespeare played an important character in the series and although Gaiman's writing isn't Shakespearean, it did embrace his humanity and the intricacies that make up the human race, the good, the grey, and the evil. My favorite being "A Game of You," where Gaiman transformed a "barbie" character into a real life-like person named Barbie, who instead of living the life as that portrayed in the recent Barbie film, lived among the misfits and her best friend a transgender woman, Wanda (the latter was a radical insertion in mainstream comics at the time and DC got pushback by retailers and readers offended by the character). The ending to that story arc was brilliantly painful. In contrast to Gaiman I think of Norman Mailer. With Mailer the artist and Mailer the man there was never a contradiction, so there was not much surprise when it was discovered he had stabbed his former wife at a party (most of his literary friends, including James Baldwin and critic Diana Trilling, stood by him), and was openly against feminism and contraception. His novels are very much from the male point of view, with much machismo. I think if this had been Mailer, instead of Gaiman, with the recent accusations, it would've been easier for some to reconcile. I still respect the writer and admire Sandman. The allegations haven't changed my opinion about him or his work. I never place anyone on an unrealistic pedestal forgetting they are human just like me, so when anything unflattering or worse is revealed or alleged as in this case, I'm not disillusioned. The problem for Neil is that many of his fans don't see him as a human being and have unreasonable expectations about him. That's on them. Gaiman and the women were adults in a consensual relationship at the time. Gaiman has been cooperating with the police and they haven't found anything criminal. At this point it is delving into the sexual acts by adults, which are by nature complicated, intimate, and personal. When I was nineteen I was dating women much older than me. Not once did any of my friends tell me it was inappropriate or that maybe I was being taken advantage of. If they they it would've been insulting to me because I was an adult. If I remained or stayed in a relationship it was on me. At the same time one of my university professors was dating a classmate. Twenty years age difference. He was excellent and beloved English lit professor. The girl was a punk rocker. We all were aware about the relationship, even though they tried to keep it private, and were happy for them. They eventually married and are still together after 35 years. Whenever I've seen or read interviews by Neil, I never was led to believe his ethics and morality were above question. That's not what he was talking about. He never misled me. The mistake he made was when other artists were similarly accused he did come out strongly and publicly in support of the women who brought forth the accusations which has been fodder for critics who never liked his politics and books. It rightly makes him look like a hypocrite. But when he speaks and writes about his reading, creativity, and how he sees storytelling, he was, is, effective and convincing. Now, if it comes out one day that all his literary ideas and opinions were not his but that he plagiarized and copied others books and ideas and claimed them as his own, then my opinion about him and his work will change.
Are you talking about the man who stole every important creation myth and made them his own? Where every character was invented by humanity millenia ago? Who is able to disguise the ever same characters in human clothes, in many shades of grey? Who rewrote the junglebook, the Edda and used countless others? Who's work consists of taking stories from the past, rewriting them and making them his own? He avoids to do anything that is prohibited by law. Nobody can accuse him of stealing stories, they are not protected by law. But that's exactly what he does. In a creative way, I don't deny that, that's what I like about his art. But he steals them. 😂 And he rides on their power, accumulated over millenia. Clever idea, but also not new. His writing skills are impressive. But ideas? I don't know. If stealing old and tested ideas from the collective cultural memory is a creative idea, then yes, he has creative ideas. But if recycling ideas is something else than there is not much left of his own. He recycles so much, there would not be much left if you would cut that out of his work.
I've never been a huge Gaiman fan. I've heard the accusations. I have no idea. Most of the time it's a "he said she said" situation and good luck proving it outside public opinion. That said, I can separate an artist from his art when the artist is actually not a good person. Not everybody can do this and that's ok. It's just the people who can't separate the art from the artist and don't want anyone else to do it either that can go %^&$ themselves.
I know there have been rumours circulating about Gaiman for a number of years now so this didn't really surprise me. I have always thought he was quite arrogant and self absorbed, I remember he got into trouble for flying 11 thousands miles to the Isle of Skye breaking lockdown restrictions during the Pandemic. I still like him as an author but I think this is probably the end of career.
Yes, I understand. I also try to separate the art from the artist. I’m wondering would it be different when an artist is dead? It’s strange but I can really admire someone like Eisenstein although he made propaganda for a terrible regime. He made in technical aspects great films and he did change the way films were made. I have no idea what he was like in person though. Was he only an opportunist like I think Leni Riefenstahl was? It’s weird but I can’t seem to forgive her for it, but I can forgive Eisenstein. Maybe WWII is too close to home as both my parents were kids during the war.
Eisenstein was a believer. He joined the Red Army during the revolution even though his father was anti-revolution and his mother had already left the country during the 1905 revolution. He was promoted in the Red Army after a successful propaganda campaign. Take from that what you will.
Harlan was a great guy, and a very nice person. The trouble is he had no filter. He was incapable of being tactful. Some people are said to not suffer fools gladly. Harlan didn't suffer fools, period! He could also be a pain in the arse. 😉
I don’t understand why whenever these discussions are had people even feel the need to mention J. K. Rowling… she has opinions. I don’t agree with a great number of authors and artists, that doesn’t mean I can’t enjoy their work. You could try to make the case that it’s not the same, but really it is. Whatever damage people think she’s doing… It’s just in their heads.
Maybe ask a trans person about the harm JKR's 'opinions' has done to the trans community? Before you say something so arrogant. Or do you just have the same attitude to transfolk?
Shannon @Shannon'sChannel is appearing on Monday Night 10/14 and we're going to specifically talk about Cancel Culture (Gaiman, Woody Allen, William S. Burroughs, John Cheever, recently Alice Munro, et al). I can still read all of them. 😮
I hadnt heard anything till I saw your video in my recommended. Hes been one of my favorite authors for nearly 20 years when I got introduced to his work. I just paused your video and read through the accusations. I hate to say this...trying to find a way to say this. Im a woman 38. I feel like when it comes to relationships and what weve done with and for men and what we allowed to be done to us in bed for the sake of experimentation mostly because he wanted it... I feel like nearly every woman could make accusations about the men she was with. Im not even meaning to defend him by saying that. None of us were getting written contract consent forms like depicted in 50 Shades. I think that in most cases men thought we consented based on the norms of the time. Norms of the time 20 years ago were if both are sober and awake and there is no clear "no, wait, stop, i dont want" then consent was assumed. Im saying both he and the women might be telling the truth as they know it. He might have thought he had consent and she might not have truely consented.
"Im saying both he and the women might be telling the truth as they know it. He might have thought he had consent and she might not have truely consented." That is a very pertinent observation. It put me in mind of the John Leslie case from here in the UK 20 plus years ago. Not one single allegation was ever proven. Not one fact was ever established in any court. But it ruined his life all the same.
@@nobbynoris Thanks. It was hard for me to figure out how to say it because its such a rough subject. Ill also say I think its odd these accusations seem to always come about 20 years down the line when the rich famous man is at the height of his career. I mean Neils been well known for a while but lately several shows have been made about his books (American Gods, Sandman, Good Omens) so hes more famous now than ever and more wealthy and now they want to say something. It seems as if every rich man whos been with several women can expect these accusations at some point.
@@ClaireGreen-wd2gmIt's not about he said she said. It is about what he said already and what he projected about himself over decades. About the things that were obvious to some but not to the general reader. You have to deep dive to discover those things. It is about his deliberately creating a persona so contrary to what he stated he did, that it shocked most of his fans. What does that make him? A liar in my book. On a very large scale not only in reach but in time, too. Do I believe a liar? No, I don't. I expect a liar to lie. And I don't care if there was consent or not. It is the job of a judge to decide this. The whole thing is so manipulative that I can only despise it. And that is what this is all about. He will probably get away in a lawsuit. He made sure of that. No witnesses, he said, she said. Old, tested and almost foolproof method. We can all sing a song about that. It is the nature of sa that it is almost always he said, she said. And there is always the gap in physical power. We are all very aware of that, especially in close physical contact. Men conveniently never speak about that. They profit from that. Some in a good way, but way too many use it in their favour. A boss towering over you, making himself big. Animals do that to intimidate. Men do the same. Tested and successful method. And there is always someone who tells you that you have to assume that he is innocent until proven guilty. Ask yourself why. They reduce this to a lawsuit, forgetting that there is first the: everyone is suspect until proven innocent. But what the former says is: he is innocent until some hazy day. No mention that this automatically assumes that the other side is lying until it is proven they are not. This claim turns the law upside down. It starts with the trial and leaves out the investigation. And the moral aspect is also left out. Law is not about morality. There is the hope the victims give up, don't have the guts or the money. The little proof is not enough. Nobody believes them because there is this tale about the poor rich guys who have to defend themselves against false accusations all the time. All victims of greedy women. Statistics, please. I read this all the time, there have to be statistics. Until I don't get a statistic I assume that this is a very convenient way for the poor rich guys to protect themselves. Because I think a proper statistic would speak for itself. That's why there are never any numbers, just accusations. Accusing the women, of course. A rich man is beyond doubt a poor victim everybody wants to take advantage of, especially women. A very believable story, don't you think?
I haven’t read anything by him but the name sounds familiar, perhaps because I watched Good Omens? As for the rest, I believe the concept is, innocent until proven guilty, not guilty first. Gareth I believe you made a number of excellent points. People forget those in the public eye are still humans and like many have flaws, some very serious ones. The big difference is when their flaws get noticed it is news. I haven’t followed this issue or what caused this to come out now, but I would hope people wait until all the facts become known before passing judgment.
Innocent until proven guilty is true for a trial. Before the trial there is an investigation and everything is looked at from all sides, everybody is a suspect until proven innocent. People seem to forget this very often. Public personas are looked at publicly, they chose that. We are a jury of their career, they need our opinion. We have the right to develop an opinion because they gave us this right when it was in their interest. They can't take this back when it's inconvenient. We are not the judge. A judge will decide about the verdict. If we apply the rules of a lawsuit then we should apply all of them.
It is heart breaking but also a relief. After the grief we will find relief and understanding, and so will Neil I hope. The grief we feel will not be excused, as any harm Neil has causes will not either This is a lesson to all of us for putting artists over there creation and turning them into art. I believe that it is time to take the torch and not rely on 1% of artists to change our world.
Also a Harlan Ellison devotee. I remember being a bit nervous the first time I met him because of all the stories I'd heard, but on the several occasions I did get to meet him the man was nothing but cordial and he always gave 101%. His wife Susan also mellowed him out a tremendous amount, because I also saw him become a lot less irascible whenever she was around and I probably owe of few of my signed editions of his work to her.
Yeah, I didn't pay much attention when I was first hearing rumblings about this, but as the volume increased, I looked into it. I suspect there's at least some truth to the accusations. The stories strike me as sad and pathetic in a way that only reality can be sad and pathetic, if that makes any sense. That being said, I've never idealized famous creators, and unless we're talking about rare and blatant criminal acts truly beyond the pale, I don't struggle to seperate art from artist. And I particularly refuse to fret about a creator's "thought crimes." Shoot, I'm sure there are legions of people involved in the production of goods and services I consume who hold opinions or perform deeds that I find personally distasteful. I don't have the time or energy to seek out offense and agonize over it. Thanks for a thoughtful video, and I hope you had a nice weekend.
"Shoot, I'm sure there are legions of people involved in the production of goods and services I consume who hold opinions or perform deeds that I find personally distasteful. " Ha ha! Got an amazon account by any chance?
As a woman I would just like to say that I find the focus of the video and the focus of the comments concerning. It’s perfectly ok to grieve an artist you loved. But, I think it would have been more beneficial for public conversations like this one to go beyond individuality and address the elephant in the room: r@pe and sa especially as perpetrated by men, are very common. Very common. And it’s so weird to me to see men lead with « will i still read him? » as opposed to « what are we doing about this? ». Yes he’s prolific so it makes the situation very surreal but a reminder that for women this isn’t surreal. Most of us have been harmed by men who are popular and well liked and well established in our circles. I would love for men to start picking up on this too and, well, get over that aspect. Also « I’m usually quite cynical about this sort of thing » - really, why? Genuine question.
@@BEe-hi4my that's a really good point, that's absolutely a focus I could have had and I apologise if I seem more distant about it than I would mean to - its extremely serious and I'm aware of how common abuse from men onto women is. I only focused on the perennial question of whether you carry on reading works from someone like this because it's a common question on here - until now frequently about Jk Rowling - so I was dipping my toe into the first time I had addressed it on my channel. I totally agree though....my cynicism will never trump my concern and sympathy for anyone accusing, and to be fair, almost every story I have heard about has turned out to be true. I just try to reserve judgement, but it affects your feelings about a celebrity when you had previously put them on a pedestal before. Gaiman has given me the motivation to do this video as a fan of his work....but this is a huge problem in general.
- and just to clarify, the cynicism isn't based on anything but caution from internet scandal - the issue of women being sexually assaulted and how that is treated in court, and that's when a woman is confident and brave enough to take it to court, needs serious attention - and I do understand why some people view it as guilty until proven innocent - for this particular crime. I do get it. It's a very serious matter, as you say, and something that thankfully is more talked about and debated than ever before.
Lovecraft has been dead for almost 100 years, and we only know that he was racist because of private letters he wrote to people he felt close to. He was also xenophobic among other things, and yet he was a Leftist. Reading, or buying his works certainly doesn't benefit him in any way. There is no record of him ever mistreating anyone, he was practically a recluse, so yeah that fact that people want to constantly bring up his "racism" serves little purpose at all, and people who harp on it should be met with some degree of cynicism; especially when it's used to denigrate his contributions to literature, because people are complex and attempts to broadbrush anyone with a single adjective should be met with skepticism .
@@bookssongsandothermagicHey man, it’s not even about “some people generally believe allegations of SA” and some people don’t. I actually read the transcripts of the podcasts. The allegations are credible. They sound true, and they include evidence. And Neil Gaiman himself does not dispute the relationships or any of the facts presented in the victims’ stories. So maybe just don’t comment until you’ve looked at them too.
Tough subject to talk about and you put it all very eloquently - well done. I’ve championed some of his books for children as they contain amazing writing and I’ve taught with them for years. Whilst a lot of his fiction is hit and miss for me, what I do enjoy I love, like The Sandman, Good Omens and Stardust. But mostly I’ve always thought highly of him as a person because of his work promoting reading and libraries and his association with Pratchett. I’ve seen two of his events and they were special memories for me. I think what you said about reserving judgment on people and preferring to be pleasantly surprised when they are good rather than disappointed when they are bad is a great attitude that I need to adopt. I will continue to read his work but only what I still own or second hand. I think all women, particularly those of us who are somewhat older can think back to encounters that were at best uncomfortable or at worst assault but our understanding of consent was ‘I didn’t say no’. I’m glad we as a society have a better understanding of what enthusiastic consent actually is and these discussions are shining a light on that.
A honest, thoughtful and open-minded video Gareth! Gaiman is one of my favorite authors and I am shocked by all the accusations. I enjoy Lovecraft so clearly can separate the art from the artist, but you do make a good point about whether the artist is still alive. I still want to read Gaiman but might do so with a bad taste in my mouth.
I felt similarly when I learned of the fairly substantial allegations about Arthur C. Clarke, who was certainly one of the, if not the single, most influential authors on me as a young person. I haven't been able to go back to his books, even though I still read Lovecraft who was an entirely different sort of horrible person.
@nobbynorris: I never like lewis Carroll's work, tbh. I'm not surprised he had a thing for little girls. However, Carroll lived in a time when a child could be bought for a few coins. in fact, one of his fellow writers did buy a 9 year old because he'd never had sex with a child and wanted to see what it was like! None of us want to go back to a time when there is no protection or redress for victims of sex abuse. N G abused women via sexual coercion. He has admitted that. He was also married at the time. Classy. And, falling back on the autism defence? Oh dear.
I really think it's OK to separate the author from the work. Authors and other creators are just people, no more likely to be good people than anyone else. I'll still continue to read books, listen to music, and admire art that I enjoy without feeling the need to consider the worthiness of their creators.
Thank you for this video, I needed this. 😊 I am very similar, I don't expect artists to be nice. When you prefer the darker side of art because the light and sweet stuff feels wrong and artificial you have to expect a dark side in the artist. If it would not be there it would not be in the art. We all have a shadow and we all struggle from time to time. If you play DnD with people for years, people you know good enough to know how they are in real life, with real people, you know that we all let loose very dark things sometimes. There is pressure in all of us and this a way to get rid of it. If you trust the other players to be able to handle that, it is a good idea to do so. Let go of some steam. We had some very dark and disturbing sessions. And very funny sessions, too. Way more fun than dark times. And I expect authors to do that, too. There is always some truth in that. We all get hurt in our lives, we all feel victimized sometimes, some of us for a long time, and we all have bad feelings. But we all should have morals, too. Normally we don't act out feelings of revenge, not in the way authors or gamers do because they can do that safely. My problem with Neil Gaiman is not if he proves guilty by law. He played a game that was carefully designed to give him a get out of jail card if it ever came out. He never denied anything but the things that are regulated by law. In my eyes that makes him more disgusting as if he would have admitted. He will never do that. He is a coward. And he clearly designed a persona, very carefully, that was so convincing that he fooled millions. That is is a major red flag in my book, too. And another sign of a coward. The books? They did nothing wrong. After this revelation you can read a different story in his books. Connect the dots. The notion that this is all just fiction is gone. Game over, this is for real. Study and learn how somebody like him hides behind a mask. A very precious source, if you ask me. There are lots of people out there like him. Read and learn how to protect yourself. Do not close your eyes, watch them carefully. So you can recognize them in your life and get rid of them immediately. In every dark thing there is something good, too. You just have to find it. What I leatned? If a persona is so perfect, do not believe it. Nobody is that perfect. I was naive. Had a blind spot. Getting rid of a blind spot is valuable to me.
Some brilliant points here - how do you have the imagination to explore dark themes and people without a bit of that in your personality. Thanks for the comment!
@@bookssongsandothermagic You don't understand darkness if you always live in the sun. The question is if you decide to be dark. Not being dark does not mean to be a victim. Some of the predators seem to believe that. This decision does not make them strong. It makes them cowards. And, as is very obvious in this case, more vulnerable as if they would have fought against the dark side. His persona is dead for many. He killed it himself.
We have to stop making hero's out of talent...These are not the same things. Someone talent has nothing to do with their morals nor does it provide them a shield from mistakes and fails as ALL humans have .
You're right - the problem comes when we aspire to be like someone we respect and admire - that's when you can get disappointed when they're deeply or dramatically flawed.
i never pretend i understand what is going on in all these peoples minds; i know lots of people have projected their shadows on me; and that is just the way of the aquarian power dynamics;
There is an excellent documentary on Charles Bukowski that lays him bare even as you are mesmerized by his writings. As for Gaiman, these accusations have reminded me of a short story he wrote for a horror anthology I picked up at some thrift shop. There was a novella by Joyce Carol Oates that was quite good in it, also. But Gaiman’s piece was absolutely filthy. And mean and just plain bad. Not in a fun way and definitely not cozy. I found it disturbing and tried hard to forget it. Still can’t believe it was published by anyone. So, yeah, maybe that’s why I am not entirely shocked now, though I have been a fan for a while. I probably won’t read him going forward. I would, however, encourage you to check out American Gods since you already have a copy. It’s by far the best thing I read by him. What a letdown. 🦋
American Gods is an example of NG's lazy and inaccurate cultural appropriation fantasies. The fact that he allegedly grew up in a cult and his family is very high up in said cult even today makes his Messianic writer vibes who can take other cultures and twist them to his purpose in order to profit off of them ever more distasteful
@@gnostic268 I don’t know about all that, but lazy is not a word I would apply to this long, intricate book. Anyway, just speaking of my experience with the work.
@@gnostic268 I wad wondering when the woke would start coming after the mythheads and neopagans. You are literally the only movement that goes out of its way to have less friends. Without "cultural appropriation" as you call it there would be no culture. Your wierd taboo against "cultural appropriation" is like a memetic anti-miscegenation law. Cultures are supposed to mingle and borrow from each other. Who do you imagine your taboo benefits?
It’s really disappointing when you find out that people you are supporting are not good people. While I don’t expect perfection from celebrities or anything like that l, we like to think we’re at least supporting basically decent people you know? We had a big blow up in the kpop community this week which has really shook me and it’s again-just so disappointing and makes me angry and sad and I feel so much for the victims. I don’t know how I’m going to move forward with Gaiman honestly. I consider him one of my favorite authors but it just feels icky now. So…I don’t know.
I bet you a similar thing happened in the Soviet Union to authors who toed the party line just to get published. Just because these authors are ideologically compliant it doesn't really tell you a whole lot about their character. It just means they are working authors.
Hey Neil, You’re loved by so many-not quite sure why, but maybe today you can make me love you by not wasting any more of my time. Not interested in games.
NG has long time been my favorite author and my favorite celebrity and any time he has come to my area, I have gone to see him and the story came out the week before I was supposed to go see him again so the event was cancelled. I am disappointed but somehow not surprised; I know these are allegations only but I can't help but think where there is smoke there is fire. I have always thought he was more like a rockstar than the average author and quite often people start to believe their own myth and think they can do anything. I saw something where Amanda Palmer stated that her silence is to protect her son but that she will have material for years worth of songs so that is quite telling. I wish the allegations would be proved untrue but not at the cost of gaslighting the victims.
There is a different between being a bit of an arsehole and being a criminal...we are all human and idolising anyone is not healthy. that said, innocent until proven guilty and all that.
I don't think you should be commenting on something like this without giving some details about what he is accused of, by whom, and why you believe it. Otherwise it's a sort of smear, even if it isn't meant to be.
I say in the video that they're just allegations and they might not be true....I am just giving my reaction to what I've been seeing on here. Apologies if it's offended you.That wasn't my intention.
Great breakdown. I think Gaiman will be fine. I think he'll continue to work and sell stuff in Hollywood. I think he benefits from how weirdly this story has unfolded in terms of the podcast. No Vanity Fair expose for him. I believe the accusers but it feels like not a lot of people are all that concerned about that writer guy.
Honestly, from everything I’ve been hearing, it just sounds like a private matter that I have no right in delving into. People are complicated and we all have skeletons in our closet - if we stripped that veil of seclusion away, I would bet dollars to doughnuts that we would despise every single human being, including those most close to our lives. We would all become misanthropic - and that seems to be on the rise for most people on the internet. In fact, I recall that being the central theme in one of Gaiman’s “Sandman” stories.
Bummer on the Gaiman scandal and how it hit you. I've never gotten on well with his work, so this one affects my own reading a little less. But how about a deep dive into Harlan Ellison? I'd need to get about a bajillion of his books to do it, but if you want something replace that pending Gaiman deep dive...I'd be game!
@@DavidWiley7 I was planning on doing that after my Bradbury deep dive. I think that will be going on for at least another 6-8 months but at some point next year I’m intending to do a Harlan Ellison deep dive.
You managed to shamble the length of this bulletin without even mentioned what he's supposed to have done and to whom, and whether the accusation has been countenanced by a court of law. Only towards the end do you mention two counts of assault have been alleged. But a good book is a good book is a good book - the morals and personal life of the author aren't implicated in whether a book is worth reading and can change one's life.
Thanks for the comment and critical analysis. The morals and personal life of the author affects how you feel about the author - that was the point of the video. I agree with your last sentence.
@@bookssongsandothermagic "The morals and personal life of the author affects how *you* feel about the author" - not me. I can't think of one instance in all of history when the personal life of any kind of artist has affected my opinion of their work.
@@jimnewcombe7584 Fair enough - for me, some artists (in all kinds of art) become inspiring. That's not just the work, but how they carry themselves in public etc...but I get your stance on it. Mine is different. My follow up video explains it a bit more I think too.
Get over it. It’s his business. I understand you like him and his books, I think you should be much more worried about who you might be affecting with judgements about people who make false allegations.
@@PaulineMcGuinness I agree with your line of thinking, and I was deliberately saying that they're accusations and not proven facts yet, but it was more about my reaction to the what if, while saying I didn't know. I appreciate what you're saying.
@@bookssongsandothermagic I still think he is a great writer. When we create we all reveal our essence and inspire others. Inspiration usually comes from the suffering of our inner world. I mean where did the blues come from? But fame takes the joy away from the art itself, and that outlet is gone. When the artist becomes the artwork on a pedestal, he is alone with his demons, and he becomes the artwork whence the demon is expressed. Unless Neil is a psychopath, he is a product of this fame machine. Anyways, the truth shall reveal itself, and so it shall. More revelations are at hand. IMO.
Your a contradiction. No you don't know how to seperate the author from his work. Your not part of the solution when it comes to whats going on in the mess that is the uk. Mister polite society😂
Your video is misleading and you know it. You start with his name and a picture of him like he's giving the lecture. Also, from here on out, until the artist has been charged by authorities, stop with the cancelation. Good day sir, I said good day.
Sorry that it was misleading, that wasn't my intention - literally had no idea it would be misleading. I often put a picture of a person as the thumbnail if the video is just about them (Le Guin, Crosby, Scalzi etc)...and yeah, I agree that the case hasn't finished yet, which I talk about in the video too. If he's innocent, I will be over the moon. I will not disbelieve the verdict if he is pronounced innocent, which some people might do.
![Quando Rondo - Life Goes On [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/eIf3fhMXAow/mqdefault.jpg)
You are still allowed to like and appreciate his work you know. Adoring talent doesn’t make you a bad person.
yes it does. the point is do you or should you care?
I am just going to say the best thing that happened to women was the “me too”movement! I hope all our daughters, nieces & grandaughters do not have to suffer the same indignities I did from junior high to Wall Street and even here on booktube. I guess some men still have not learned yet that anything inappropriate should not be posted.
I too read the Belgariad not knowing anything about the author and loved it. I also love Ellison’s narration of Wizard of Sea… so not sure what people will do about Gaiman. I particularly dnf’d all my attempts at reading Gaiman before this news came out.
I've been a massive NG fan for years, and at first, I dismissed the allegations as someone trying to put him down. But sadly, they are looking more and more solid. As both an SA victim and autistic person myself, I'm pretty angry in fact at what appears to be Gaiman's arrogance. Will this stop me purchasing any more NG stuff, probably, and will it make me bin what I do own of his? Maybe. Though I can possibly separate the man from the work...Sandman, American Gods and The Graveyard Book especially being part of my creative life. It's devastating for fans, but even more so for those women (if the allegations are ultimately proven 100% true). There's a tiny part of me hoping that this will all suddenly be revealed to be a hoax, etc, but sadly, my gut is telling me otherwise.
I’m glad you made this video. I have been thinking about this for a few days. I think the first thing to remember is that Gaiman’s (or whichever author) guilt doesn’t transfer. You did nothing wrong by liking him or his work or for talking about it when you didn’t know. Now that you do know you have to decide what to do moving forward.
@@BookishTexan thanks Brian I don’t think I’ve said everything I wanted to say so I think I will attempt a follow up video, but I appreciate the support.
Society seems to think if you are talented (which he clearly is) then you can’t really be someone who does bad things. It is always a problem when we ‘other’ people. That some humans are monsters/damaged/unnatural. They aren’t. They are people. They walk amongst us: the murderers, pedophiles,rapists, abusers (not saying he ticks all these boxes by the way ). We both probably walked past one of the people listed on the way into work today.
We need to talk about atrocities more not less. It’s the NDA’s that get me. Basically if you are rich enough you can make a lot of horrible things go away.
Absolutely agree.
A huge lesson learned for me. Never truly believe the best in anyone. Because, chances are, they are going to let you down in some way shape or form sooner or later. Will I still read his work? Sure, but I’ll be reading his books second hand.
Bukowski didn’t pretend to be a nice person.
I really appreciate honest and open thoughts like this. It's been nice seeing the book community talk so vulnerably about the situation, rather than trying to hush it up. I don't know if anything will happen to Gaiman's career, even now that five women have come forward, but I know a lot of people as individuals have decided to either not buy or not review his work anymore (not that he's published a novel in years).
A lot of authors and artists I admire did some not so nice things in their lives. Unless an artist is actively participating in bad things from revenue received then I don’t see a massive problem still liking their work.
Just to be clear, Harlan Ellison was an abrasive character because he was forthright with his opinions and his values. One of which was celebrating the work and voice of female writers in science fiction. The other guy is, depending on where you source your news, associated with a series of sexual assaults. One recurring theme on this revelation is that is seems to have been a bit of an open secret within the publishing world and science fiction community. It actually disgusts me that he wrote the introduction to Ellison's Greatest Hits.
Yeah I don't know about the open secret thing but if it is, it would be like the cover up with Saville - people benefiting from the silence, which is awful.
Was this before or after he grabbed Connie Willis' tit?
I'm not aware that there is a court case. These things are notoriously difficult to get in front of a jury.
Absolutely. There is a big issue with the way these kinds of things are handled by the law.
Thoughtful discussion of a tough topic. I’m a separate the art from the artist kind of guy, though to me, it’s a little more difficult when the artist is still alive. I’m still going to read his books.
when you think about it, why do people need to state (directly or indirectly) how great they are? usually it means they are not great people
True
I think what makes this more difficult is the deep humanity found in Gaiman's stories. It seems like a contradiction of the man and his work. I can only speak for Sandman- the only other book I've read by him is The Ocean at the end of the Lane-where every story arc realistically and imaginatively described human history. William Shakespeare played an important character in the series and although Gaiman's writing isn't Shakespearean, it did embrace his humanity and the intricacies that make up the human race, the good, the grey, and the evil. My favorite being "A Game of You," where Gaiman transformed a "barbie" character into a real life-like person named Barbie, who instead of living the life as that portrayed in the recent Barbie film, lived among the misfits and her best friend a transgender woman, Wanda (the latter was a radical insertion in mainstream comics at the time and DC got pushback by retailers and readers offended by the character). The ending to that story arc was brilliantly painful. In contrast to Gaiman I think of Norman Mailer. With Mailer the artist and Mailer the man there was never a contradiction, so there was not much surprise when it was discovered he had stabbed his former wife at a party (most of his literary friends, including James Baldwin and critic Diana Trilling, stood by him), and was openly against feminism and contraception. His novels are very much from the male point of view, with much machismo. I think if this had been Mailer, instead of Gaiman, with the recent accusations, it would've been easier for some to reconcile.
I still respect the writer and admire Sandman. The allegations haven't changed my opinion about him or his work. I never place anyone on an unrealistic pedestal forgetting they are human just like me, so when anything unflattering or worse is revealed or alleged as in this case, I'm not disillusioned. The problem for Neil is that many of his fans don't see him as a human being and have unreasonable expectations about him. That's on them. Gaiman and the women were adults in a consensual relationship at the time. Gaiman has been cooperating with the police and they haven't found anything criminal. At this point it is delving into the sexual acts by adults, which are by nature complicated, intimate, and personal. When I was nineteen I was dating women much older than me. Not once did any of my friends tell me it was inappropriate or that maybe I was being taken advantage of. If they they it would've been insulting to me because I was an adult. If I remained or stayed in a relationship it was on me. At the same time one of my university professors was dating a classmate. Twenty years age difference. He was excellent and beloved English lit professor. The girl was a punk rocker. We all were aware about the relationship, even though they tried to keep it private, and were happy for them. They eventually married and are still together after 35 years.
Whenever I've seen or read interviews by Neil, I never was led to believe his ethics and morality were above question. That's not what he was talking about. He never misled me. The mistake he made was when other artists were similarly accused he did come out strongly and publicly in support of the women who brought forth the accusations which has been fodder for critics who never liked his politics and books. It rightly makes him look like a hypocrite. But when he speaks and writes about his reading, creativity, and how he sees storytelling, he was, is, effective and convincing. Now, if it comes out one day that all his literary ideas and opinions were not his but that he plagiarized and copied others books and ideas and claimed them as his own, then my opinion about him and his work will change.
Are you talking about the man who stole every important creation myth and made them his own? Where every character was invented by humanity millenia ago? Who is able to disguise the ever same characters in human clothes, in many shades of grey? Who rewrote the junglebook, the Edda and used countless others? Who's work consists of taking stories from the past, rewriting them and making them his own?
He avoids to do anything that is prohibited by law. Nobody can accuse him of stealing stories, they are not protected by law. But that's exactly what he does. In a creative way, I don't deny that, that's what I like about his art. But he steals them. 😂
And he rides on their power, accumulated over millenia. Clever idea, but also not new.
His writing skills are impressive. But ideas? I don't know. If stealing old and tested ideas from the collective cultural memory is a creative idea, then yes, he has creative ideas. But if recycling ideas is something else than there is not much left of his own. He recycles so much, there would not be much left if you would cut that out of his work.
What's the saying: "Never meet your heroes".
I've never been a huge Gaiman fan. I've heard the accusations. I have no idea. Most of the time it's a "he said she said" situation and good luck proving it outside public opinion. That said, I can separate an artist from his art when the artist is actually not a good person. Not everybody can do this and that's ok. It's just the people who can't separate the art from the artist and don't want anyone else to do it either that can go %^&$ themselves.
Hahaha yeah I agree.
I know there have been rumours circulating about Gaiman for a number of years now so this didn't really surprise me. I have always thought he was quite arrogant and self absorbed, I remember he got into trouble for flying 11 thousands miles to the Isle of Skye breaking lockdown restrictions during the Pandemic. I still like him as an author but I think this is probably the end of career.
Yes, I understand. I also try to separate the art from the artist. I’m wondering would it be different when an artist is dead? It’s strange but I can really admire someone like Eisenstein although he made propaganda for a terrible regime. He made in technical aspects great films and he did change the way films were made. I have no idea what he was like in person though. Was he only an opportunist like I think Leni Riefenstahl was? It’s weird but I can’t seem to forgive her for it, but I can forgive Eisenstein. Maybe WWII is too close to home as both my parents were kids during the war.
Eisenstein was a believer. He joined the Red Army during the revolution even though his father was anti-revolution and his mother had already left the country during the 1905 revolution. He was promoted in the Red Army after a successful propaganda campaign. Take from that what you will.
i dont think you can. Good people produce good art . that's the whole point.
Harlan was a great guy, and a very nice person. The trouble is he had no filter. He was incapable of being tactful. Some people are said to not suffer fools gladly. Harlan didn't suffer fools, period! He could also be a pain in the arse. 😉
I don’t understand why whenever these discussions are had people even feel the need to mention J. K. Rowling… she has opinions. I don’t agree with a great number of authors and artists, that doesn’t mean I can’t enjoy their work. You could try to make the case that it’s not the same, but really it is. Whatever damage people think she’s doing… It’s just in their heads.
Maybe ask a trans person about the harm JKR's 'opinions' has done to the trans community? Before you say something so arrogant. Or do you just have the same attitude to transfolk?
Oh and of course, you have absolutely no videos or subscribers 🙄
JK Rowling is also a super liberal. She's just running Windows XP instead of the Windows 10 version of programming.
Shannon @Shannon'sChannel is appearing on Monday Night 10/14 and we're going to specifically talk about Cancel Culture (Gaiman, Woody Allen, William S. Burroughs, John Cheever, recently Alice Munro, et al). I can still read all of them. 😮
Definitely need to catch that live, will be an interesting discussion.
I hadnt heard anything till I saw your video in my recommended. Hes been one of my favorite authors for nearly 20 years when I got introduced to his work.
I just paused your video and read through the accusations.
I hate to say this...trying to find a way to say this. Im a woman 38. I feel like when it comes to relationships and what weve done with and for men and what we allowed to be done to us in bed for the sake of experimentation mostly because he wanted it...
I feel like nearly every woman could make accusations about the men she was with. Im not even meaning to defend him by saying that.
None of us were getting written contract consent forms like depicted in 50 Shades. I think that in most cases men thought we consented based on the norms of the time. Norms of the time 20 years ago were if both are sober and awake and there is no clear "no, wait, stop, i dont want" then consent was assumed.
Im saying both he and the women might be telling the truth as they know it. He might have thought he had consent and she might not have truely consented.
"Im saying both he and the women might be telling the truth as they know it. He might have thought he had consent and she might not have truely consented."
That is a very pertinent observation. It put me in mind of the John Leslie case from here in the UK 20 plus years ago. Not one single allegation was ever proven. Not one fact was ever established in any court. But it ruined his life all the same.
@@nobbynoris Thanks. It was hard for me to figure out how to say it because its such a rough subject.
Ill also say I think its odd these accusations seem to always come about 20 years down the line when the rich famous man is at the height of his career. I mean Neils been well known for a while but lately several shows have been made about his books (American Gods, Sandman, Good Omens) so hes more famous now than ever and more wealthy and now they want to say something. It seems as if every rich man whos been with several women can expect these accusations at some point.
@@ClaireGreen-wd2gmIt's not about he said she said. It is about what he said already and what he projected about himself over decades. About the things that were obvious to some but not to the general reader. You have to deep dive to discover those things.
It is about his deliberately creating a persona so contrary to what he stated he did, that it shocked most of his fans.
What does that make him? A liar in my book. On a very large scale not only in reach but in time, too. Do I believe a liar? No, I don't. I expect a liar to lie.
And I don't care if there was consent or not. It is the job of a judge to decide this. The whole thing is so manipulative that I can only despise it. And that is what this is all about. He will probably get away in a lawsuit. He made sure of that. No witnesses, he said, she said. Old, tested and almost foolproof method.
We can all sing a song about that. It is the nature of sa that it is almost always he said, she said. And there is always the gap in physical power. We are all very aware of that, especially in close physical contact. Men conveniently never speak about that. They profit from that. Some in a good way, but way too many use it in their favour. A boss towering over you, making himself big. Animals do that to intimidate. Men do the same. Tested and successful method.
And there is always someone who tells you that you have to assume that he is innocent until proven guilty. Ask yourself why. They reduce this to a lawsuit, forgetting that there is first the: everyone is suspect until proven innocent. But what the former says is: he is innocent until some hazy day. No mention that this automatically assumes that the other side is lying until it is proven they are not. This claim turns the law upside down. It starts with the trial and leaves out the investigation.
And the moral aspect is also left out. Law is not about morality. There is the hope the victims give up, don't have the guts or the money. The little proof is not enough. Nobody believes them because there is this tale about the poor rich guys who have to defend themselves against false accusations all the time. All victims of greedy women. Statistics, please. I read this all the time, there have to be statistics. Until I don't get a statistic I assume that this is a very convenient way for the poor rich guys to protect themselves. Because I think a proper statistic would speak for itself. That's why there are never any numbers, just accusations. Accusing the women, of course. A rich man is beyond doubt a poor victim everybody wants to take advantage of, especially women. A very believable story, don't you think?
I haven’t read anything by him but the name sounds familiar, perhaps because I watched Good Omens? As for the rest, I believe the concept is, innocent until proven guilty, not guilty first. Gareth I believe you made a number of excellent points. People forget those in the public eye are still humans and like many have flaws, some very serious ones. The big difference is when their flaws get noticed it is news. I haven’t followed this issue or what caused this to come out now, but I would hope people wait until all the facts become known before passing judgment.
Innocent until proven guilty is true for a trial. Before the trial there is an investigation and everything is looked at from all sides, everybody is a suspect until proven innocent. People seem to forget this very often.
Public personas are looked at publicly, they chose that. We are a jury of their career, they need our opinion. We have the right to develop an opinion because they gave us this right when it was in their interest. They can't take this back when it's inconvenient.
We are not the judge. A judge will decide about the verdict.
If we apply the rules of a lawsuit then we should apply all of them.
It is heart breaking but also a relief.
After the grief we will find relief and understanding, and so will Neil I hope.
The grief we feel will not be excused, as any harm Neil has causes will not either
This is a lesson to all of us for putting artists over there creation and turning them into art.
I believe that it is time to take the torch and not rely on 1% of artists to change our world.
Interesting response/perspective.
Also a Harlan Ellison devotee. I remember being a bit nervous the first time I met him because of all the stories I'd heard, but on the several occasions I did get to meet him the man was nothing but cordial and he always gave 101%. His wife Susan also mellowed him out a tremendous amount, because I also saw him become a lot less irascible whenever she was around and I probably owe of few of my signed editions of his work to her.
Yeah, I didn't pay much attention when I was first hearing rumblings about this, but as the volume increased, I looked into it. I suspect there's at least some truth to the accusations. The stories strike me as sad and pathetic in a way that only reality can be sad and pathetic, if that makes any sense.
That being said, I've never idealized famous creators, and unless we're talking about rare and blatant criminal acts truly beyond the pale, I don't struggle to seperate art from artist. And I particularly refuse to fret about a creator's "thought crimes." Shoot, I'm sure there are legions of people involved in the production of goods and services I consume who hold opinions or perform deeds that I find personally distasteful. I don't have the time or energy to seek out offense and agonize over it.
Thanks for a thoughtful video, and I hope you had a nice weekend.
"Shoot, I'm sure there are legions of people involved in the production of goods and services I consume who hold opinions or perform deeds that I find personally distasteful. "
Ha ha! Got an amazon account by any chance?
As a woman I would just like to say that I find the focus of the video and the focus of the comments concerning. It’s perfectly ok to grieve an artist you loved. But, I think it would have been more beneficial for public conversations like this one to go beyond individuality and address the elephant in the room: r@pe and sa especially as perpetrated by men, are very common. Very common. And it’s so weird to me to see men lead with « will i still read him? » as opposed to « what are we doing about this? ». Yes he’s prolific so it makes the situation very surreal but a reminder that for women this isn’t surreal. Most of us have been harmed by men who are popular and well liked and well established in our circles. I would love for men to start picking up on this too and, well, get over that aspect. Also « I’m usually quite cynical about this sort of thing » - really, why? Genuine question.
@@BEe-hi4my that's a really good point, that's absolutely a focus I could have had and I apologise if I seem more distant about it than I would mean to - its extremely serious and I'm aware of how common abuse from men onto women is. I only focused on the perennial question of whether you carry on reading works from someone like this because it's a common question on here - until now frequently about Jk Rowling - so I was dipping my toe into the first time I had addressed it on my channel. I totally agree though....my cynicism will never trump my concern and sympathy for anyone accusing, and to be fair, almost every story I have heard about has turned out to be true. I just try to reserve judgement, but it affects your feelings about a celebrity when you had previously put them on a pedestal before. Gaiman has given me the motivation to do this video as a fan of his work....but this is a huge problem in general.
- and just to clarify, the cynicism isn't based on anything but caution from internet scandal - the issue of women being sexually assaulted and how that is treated in court, and that's when a woman is confident and brave enough to take it to court, needs serious attention - and I do understand why some people view it as guilty until proven innocent - for this particular crime. I do get it. It's a very serious matter, as you say, and something that thankfully is more talked about and debated than ever before.
Lovecraft has been dead for almost 100 years, and we only know that he was racist because of private letters he wrote to people he felt close to. He was also xenophobic among other things, and yet he was a Leftist. Reading, or buying his works certainly doesn't benefit him in any way. There is no record of him ever mistreating anyone, he was practically a recluse, so yeah that fact that people want to constantly bring up his "racism" serves little purpose at all, and people who harp on it should be met with some degree of cynicism; especially when it's used to denigrate his contributions to literature, because people are complex and attempts to broadbrush anyone with a single adjective should be met with skepticism .
@@bookssongsandothermagicHey man, it’s not even about “some people generally believe allegations of SA” and some people don’t. I actually read the transcripts of the podcasts. The allegations are credible.
They sound true, and they include evidence. And Neil Gaiman himself does not dispute the relationships or any of the facts presented in the victims’ stories.
So maybe just don’t comment until you’ve looked at them too.
Tough subject to talk about and you put it all very eloquently - well done. I’ve championed some of his books for children as they contain amazing writing and I’ve taught with them for years. Whilst a lot of his fiction is hit and miss for me, what I do enjoy I love, like The Sandman, Good Omens and Stardust. But mostly I’ve always thought highly of him as a person because of his work promoting reading and libraries and his association with Pratchett. I’ve seen two of his events and they were special memories for me. I think what you said about reserving judgment on people and preferring to be pleasantly surprised when they are good rather than disappointed when they are bad is a great attitude that I need to adopt. I will continue to read his work but only what I still own or second hand. I think all women, particularly those of us who are somewhat older can think back to encounters that were at best uncomfortable or at worst assault but our understanding of consent was ‘I didn’t say no’. I’m glad we as a society have a better understanding of what enthusiastic consent actually is and these discussions are shining a light on that.
Brilliantly put Jack xx
A honest, thoughtful and open-minded video Gareth! Gaiman is one of my favorite authors and I am shocked by all the accusations. I enjoy Lovecraft so clearly can separate the art from the artist, but you do make a good point about whether the artist is still alive. I still want to read Gaiman but might do so with a bad taste in my mouth.
I felt similarly when I learned of the fairly substantial allegations about Arthur C. Clarke, who was certainly one of the, if not the single, most influential authors on me as a young person. I haven't been able to go back to his books, even though I still read Lovecraft who was an entirely different sort of horrible person.
He was an absolute wrong un, but still love his writing.
How can you compare the two at all? One guy has opinions and the other interferes with little boys.
If you find Neil Gaiman disturbing then don't ever google Lewis Carroll.
he was fine ..
@nobbynorris: I never like lewis Carroll's work, tbh. I'm not surprised he had a thing for little girls. However, Carroll lived in a time when a child could be bought for a few coins. in fact, one of his fellow writers did buy a 9 year old because he'd never had sex with a child and wanted to see what it was like! None of us want to go back to a time when there is no protection or redress for victims of sex abuse. N G abused women via sexual coercion. He has admitted that. He was also married at the time. Classy. And, falling back on the autism defence? Oh dear.
@@arianbyw3819 children can still be bought cheaply. the world is getting worse im afraid .
I really think it's OK to separate the author from the work. Authors and other creators are just people, no more likely to be good people than anyone else. I'll still continue to read books, listen to music, and admire art that I enjoy without feeling the need to consider the worthiness of their creators.
Thank you for this video, I needed this. 😊
I am very similar, I don't expect artists to be nice. When you prefer the darker side of art because the light and sweet stuff feels wrong and artificial you have to expect a dark side in the artist. If it would not be there it would not be in the art. We all have a shadow and we all struggle from time to time.
If you play DnD with people for years, people you know good enough to know how they are in real life, with real people, you know that we all let loose very dark things sometimes. There is pressure in all of us and this a way to get rid of it. If you trust the other players to be able to handle that, it is a good idea to do so. Let go of some steam. We had some very dark and disturbing sessions. And very funny sessions, too. Way more fun than dark times.
And I expect authors to do that, too. There is always some truth in that. We all get hurt in our lives, we all feel victimized sometimes, some of us for a long time, and we all have bad feelings. But we all should have morals, too. Normally we don't act out feelings of revenge, not in the way authors or gamers do because they can do that safely.
My problem with Neil Gaiman is not if he proves guilty by law. He played a game that was carefully designed to give him a get out of jail card if it ever came out. He never denied anything but the things that are regulated by law. In my eyes that makes him more disgusting as if he would have admitted. He will never do that. He is a coward.
And he clearly designed a persona, very carefully, that was so convincing that he fooled millions. That is is a major red flag in my book, too. And another sign of a coward.
The books? They did nothing wrong. After this revelation you can read a different story in his books. Connect the dots. The notion that this is all just fiction is gone. Game over, this is for real. Study and learn how somebody like him hides behind a mask. A very precious source, if you ask me. There are lots of people out there like him. Read and learn how to protect yourself. Do not close your eyes, watch them carefully. So you can recognize them in your life and get rid of them immediately. In every dark thing there is something good, too. You just have to find it.
What I leatned? If a persona is so perfect, do not believe it. Nobody is that perfect. I was naive. Had a blind spot. Getting rid of a blind spot is valuable to me.
Some brilliant points here - how do you have the imagination to explore dark themes and people without a bit of that in your personality. Thanks for the comment!
@@bookssongsandothermagic You don't understand darkness if you always live in the sun. The question is if you decide to be dark. Not being dark does not mean to be a victim. Some of the predators seem to believe that.
This decision does not make them strong. It makes them cowards. And, as is very obvious in this case, more vulnerable as if they would have fought against the dark side. His persona is dead for many. He killed it himself.
We have to stop making hero's out of talent...These are not the same things. Someone talent has nothing to do with their morals nor does it provide them a shield from mistakes and fails as ALL humans have .
You're right - the problem comes when we aspire to be like someone we respect and admire - that's when you can get disappointed when they're deeply or dramatically flawed.
i never pretend i understand what is going on in all these peoples minds;
i know lots of people have projected their shadows on me;
and that is just the way of the aquarian power dynamics;
There is an excellent documentary on Charles Bukowski that lays him bare even as you are mesmerized by his writings. As for Gaiman, these accusations have reminded me of a short story he wrote for a horror anthology I picked up at some thrift shop. There was a novella by Joyce Carol Oates that was quite good in it, also. But Gaiman’s piece was absolutely filthy. And mean and just plain bad. Not in a fun way and definitely not cozy. I found it disturbing and tried hard to forget it. Still can’t believe it was published by anyone. So, yeah, maybe that’s why I am not entirely shocked now, though I have been a fan for a while. I probably won’t read him going forward. I would, however, encourage you to check out American Gods since you already have a copy. It’s by far the best thing I read by him. What a letdown. 🦋
American Gods is an example of NG's lazy and inaccurate cultural appropriation fantasies. The fact that he allegedly grew up in a cult and his family is very high up in said cult even today makes his Messianic writer vibes who can take other cultures and twist them to his purpose in order to profit off of them ever more distasteful
@@gnostic268 I don’t know about all that, but lazy is not a word I would apply to this long, intricate book. Anyway, just speaking of my experience with the work.
@@gnostic268
I wad wondering when the woke would start coming after the mythheads and neopagans. You are literally the only movement that goes out of its way to have less friends. Without "cultural appropriation" as you call it there would be no culture. Your wierd taboo against "cultural appropriation" is like a memetic anti-miscegenation law. Cultures are supposed to mingle and borrow from each other. Who do you imagine your taboo benefits?
Interesting thoughts about Bukowski.
It’s really disappointing when you find out that people you are supporting are not good people. While I don’t expect perfection from celebrities or anything like that l, we like to think we’re at least supporting basically decent people you know? We had a big blow up in the kpop community this week which has really shook me and it’s again-just so disappointing and makes me angry and sad and I feel so much for the victims. I don’t know how I’m going to move forward with Gaiman honestly. I consider him one of my favorite authors but it just feels icky now. So…I don’t know.
Totally get it. It's hard to process.
I bet you a similar thing happened in the Soviet Union to authors who toed the party line just to get published. Just because these authors are ideologically compliant it doesn't really tell you a whole lot about their character. It just means they are working authors.
Hey Neil,
You’re loved by so many-not quite sure why, but maybe today you can make me love you by not wasting any more of my time. Not interested in games.
NG has long time been my favorite author and my favorite celebrity and any time he has come to my area, I have gone to see him and the story came out the week before I was supposed to go see him again so the event was cancelled. I am disappointed but somehow not surprised; I know these are allegations only but I can't help but think where there is smoke there is fire. I have always thought he was more like a rockstar than the average author and quite often people start to believe their own myth and think they can do anything. I saw something where Amanda Palmer stated that her silence is to protect her son but that she will have material for years worth of songs so that is quite telling. I wish the allegations would be proved untrue but not at the cost of gaslighting the victims.
There is a different between being a bit of an arsehole and being a criminal...we are all human and idolising anyone is not healthy. that said, innocent until proven guilty and all that.
Totally agree.
I don't think you should be commenting on something like this without giving some details about what he is accused of, by whom, and why you believe it. Otherwise it's a sort of smear, even if it isn't meant to be.
I say in the video that they're just allegations and they might not be true....I am just giving my reaction to what I've been seeing on here. Apologies if it's offended you.That wasn't my intention.
@@bookssongsandothermagic Neil Gaiman's reputation is the issue, not my feelings.
How many times does it have to be said?
Don’t screw your fans.
Don’t screw your fans.
Don’t screw your fans.
More social media trials based on gossip. And the only thing I've read is Good Omens.
Great breakdown. I think Gaiman will be fine. I think he'll continue to work and sell stuff in Hollywood. I think he benefits from how weirdly this story has unfolded in terms of the podcast. No Vanity Fair expose for him. I believe the accusers but it feels like not a lot of people are all that concerned about that writer guy.
He does not deserve to be "fine", nor do I think he will be.
Honestly, from everything I’ve been hearing, it just sounds like a private matter that I have no right in delving into. People are complicated and we all have skeletons in our closet - if we stripped that veil of seclusion away, I would bet dollars to doughnuts that we would despise every single human being, including those most close to our lives. We would all become misanthropic - and that seems to be on the rise for most people on the internet.
In fact, I recall that being the central theme in one of Gaiman’s “Sandman” stories.
Agree with you completely.
I think everything's gone mad
do you mean with the way people react to this sort of thing?
@@bookssongsandothermagic I mean with so much of this kind of thing happening
Bummer on the Gaiman scandal and how it hit you. I've never gotten on well with his work, so this one affects my own reading a little less.
But how about a deep dive into Harlan Ellison? I'd need to get about a bajillion of his books to do it, but if you want something replace that pending Gaiman deep dive...I'd be game!
@@DavidWiley7 I was planning on doing that after my Bradbury deep dive. I think that will be going on for at least another 6-8 months but at some point next year I’m intending to do a Harlan Ellison deep dive.
Did you just say you’ve never read Harry Potter??? That’s what I’m stuck on lol separate the artist from the art or we will all be miserable.
Haha I think it's because I'm older - hence why I read Discworld and the Belgariad in the early 80s.
@@bookssongsandothermagic well there’s no time like the present. Harry Potter book one please !
@@BookBuds haha I've never been persuaded to read it....I've seen the first 4 films...
@@bookssongsandothermagic ugh
@@BookBuds would you say she's a good writer?
You managed to shamble the length of this bulletin without even mentioned what he's supposed to have done and to whom, and whether the accusation has been countenanced by a court of law. Only towards the end do you mention two counts of assault have been alleged. But a good book is a good book is a good book - the morals and personal life of the author aren't implicated in whether a book is worth reading and can change one's life.
Thanks for the comment and critical analysis. The morals and personal life of the author affects how you feel about the author - that was the point of the video. I agree with your last sentence.
@@bookssongsandothermagic "The morals and personal life of the author affects how *you* feel about the author" - not me. I can't think of one instance in all of history when the personal life of any kind of artist has affected my opinion of their work.
@@jimnewcombe7584 that's not what I wrote - I said the author not their work.
@@bookssongsandothermagic The only opinion I have of an author is their work. Nothing else about them is remotely my business.
@@jimnewcombe7584 Fair enough - for me, some artists (in all kinds of art) become inspiring. That's not just the work, but how they carry themselves in public etc...but I get your stance on it. Mine is different. My follow up video explains it a bit more I think too.
Get over it. It’s his business. I understand you like him and his books, I think you should be much more worried about who you might be affecting with judgements about people who make false allegations.
Do you think the allegations are totally unfounded?
@@bookssongsandothermagic I don’t know.
Edited to add, no, but this is how very unpleasant stories grow.
@@PaulineMcGuinness I agree with your line of thinking, and I was deliberately saying that they're accusations and not proven facts yet, but it was more about my reaction to the what if, while saying I didn't know. I appreciate what you're saying.
Can you name the documentary you were referring to @ 4:00?
@@PaulineMcGuinness Dreams with Sharp Teeth
Alleged
Absolutely.
@@bookssongsandothermagic
I still think he is a great writer. When we create we all reveal our essence and inspire others.
Inspiration usually comes from the suffering of our inner world. I mean where did the blues come from?
But fame takes the joy away from the art itself, and that outlet is gone.
When the artist becomes the artwork on a pedestal, he is alone with his demons, and he becomes the artwork whence the demon is expressed.
Unless Neil is a psychopath, he is a product of this fame machine.
Anyways, the truth shall reveal itself, and so it shall. More revelations are at hand. IMO.
Gaiman's behavior has been well known for *decades.* He has been banned from innumerable venues for exhibiting predatory behavior in public.
Trial by youtube. Guilty until proved innocent.
Not just RUclips. Not even the internet. This hearsay thing has always been the culture we lived in.
@@nobbynoris Very true. But Libel has always been easier to prove than slander.
you have a good point, and I am really hoping it's all bollocks.
Your a contradiction. No you don't know how to seperate the author from his work. Your not part of the solution when it comes to whats going on in the mess that is the uk. Mister polite society😂
Your video is misleading and you know it. You start with his name and a picture of him like he's giving the lecture. Also, from here on out, until the artist has been charged by authorities, stop with the cancelation. Good day sir, I said good day.
Sorry that it was misleading, that wasn't my intention - literally had no idea it would be misleading. I often put a picture of a person as the thumbnail if the video is just about them (Le Guin, Crosby, Scalzi etc)...and yeah, I agree that the case hasn't finished yet, which I talk about in the video too. If he's innocent, I will be over the moon. I will not disbelieve the verdict if he is pronounced innocent, which some people might do.
Right on!!