Funnily enough, now gunlance has a kinda similar counter to the old lance, thanks to the guard point on reloads, tho you can't hold it like old lance. I didn't give too much time to new lance, because I wasn't enjoying the changes, and gunlance was too fun and I couldn't put it down, but on release I'll give it another try.
lance counter thrust is a staple for lance for 15 years now, most old lancer like very fast paced nature of lance combat when master to interweave guarding and attacking. i think that lance is not a counter weapon, but a parry weapon. exchanging counter thrust to parry stance that work like perfect guard is a good mixup. last for 2s revert to guard, after parry you can cross slash, upper thrust, dash attack, guard, and guard advance i dont like charge counter, with monster tells can be it will be as useful as silkbind teaher/twin vine during base rise too situational to use all im seeing of focus mode is clutch claw and wound 2.0, the dev team saying to play my way spam wound to get optimal damage or spend 20+mins and get CCed by monster new hyper wiggly move set perfect block having no down side is how you get hyper fast monster and true unblockable attack in sunbreak, its to strong. all counter should consume stamina in my opinion, for all weapon. i hope they fix the lance input jank, i dont mind recovery animation but dont eat my input in an action combat game capcom lance mobility come from it moveset, hope they buff the distance of some the mobility moves i dont like charge counter as a concept on a relatively safe weapon, why gamble on damage, give tools to say no to monster super moves. power guard has increased chip damage, moves like anchor rage even with no buff but scale with enemy attack damage sound more appealing someone in capcom is insisting on putting charging machanics in weapons, why?
I understand what you are saying with the true unblock able attack in Sunbreak comment. Insta-block had a fairly tight timing to it, so I felt like you were rewarded for playing it well. But then they countered that by having moves that hit twice simultaneously, like Seathing Bazel's face-plant, or Apex Arzuros' claw-swipe. And that annoyed me a lot. As long as a truly unblockable attack is realistic in its timing, I have no issue. For example, Valstrax's ambush has a huge wind up, so you can sheathe and dive like normal weapons. It gets really out of order when it's Savage deviljho's pin in Iceborne that has hardly any tell, and the lance's moveset isn't well equipped to dodge. Especially if you're on a slope. Yeah I agree that not all weapons need a charge move. It's a point I might note on a future video: That the weapons can start to feel homogenized because everything has a form of counter for example.
@amaninthewestmusic8389 true unblockable is not something i want capcom to implement, it fuqs with our trust with our tools/weapon, just knowing you need guard up is enough, it let decide on dps skill or utility skill that allow me to dps easily. Plus when you have a shield, you cant a block an attack that certain weapon can i-frame it, it just feel bad. As for multi hits attack im ok if the monster have limited range, no zig zaging like rise tobi, that thing is a manace. Yeah sunbreak monster if slowed down and lessen the distance they move cross the arena they be less hectic and fun to fight. If all of sunbreak slikbind move have normalize damage and no wire bugcost its a dam good combat system
The problem with the argument between High Thrust and Mid Thrust is that it guarding slower and being so slow makes you not want to use the High Thrust at all. Also some fights you are forced to use the High Thrust. I don't know why they doing the changes to Mid Thrust, but the changes to High Thrust aren't good and will kill the weapon for a lot of people. The Counter Thrust isn't worth it in my opinion. I be better off if you could do a press-and-hold mechanic to use counterthrust when you are using High Thrust. These changes will kill old players at least the High Thrust and Counter Thrust changes, and will make people drop the weapon, I feel like having a middle ground here would be better. Making the Counter Thrust a gamble doesn't make sense with the Lance. It's a counter you need to get it set up. When other weapons only take one attack to use their counters. This doesn't give more depth it gives more restrictions to the weapons and makes the weapons feel less fun. Overall, the Leaping thrust being slower and Gaurd dash also being slower lowers variety in movement. Dash attack needs to speed up quicker so we can have a chance to chase the monster a bit before it truly runs away. High Thrust being slower than Worlds doesn't make people want to use the move when mid thrust already has better reasons to use it. Counter thrust being at the end of the combo isn't a gamble or gives use more depth it's a restriction in options for the Lance when other weapons got more moves. There's an easy way to make old lance players like these weapons more and that's reverting the High Thrust speed back and Counter thrust a press and hold mechanic. I like the new Lance but it has a problem. I can't defend the changes and I see too many people talking about dropping the weapon.
Totally agree with you. Lance is already not strong. Making high thrust a lil faster won't break any balance, especially now that we have the repositioning perk to incentivize using mid thrust.
@ Agree, I just want the bare minimum back to World Speeds and World recovery time on moves. Leaping Thrust being back to Three Ticks instead of Two would be nice. Guard Dash and Lealing Thrust combo back to what they were in Rise or World. Counter Thrust I feel is the most important part that I see so many people not like. Even if the guard is better. I just hope Capcom has enough time.
Alright, I have a lot of thoughts on the lance, and although I've talked about pieces of them in various places I'm gonna try and lay them all out here. But the tldr is that I believe the lance to be worse, primarily because it's a completely different weapon. If you like that different weapon, that's perfectly fine, but I miss the old lance. But be prepared, I yapped a lot on this one 0_0. To start with, the basic combo. This, combined with my next opinion on the new 4th thrusts, is actually one of my most complicated points. On the topic of high thrust being slower and mid thrust 3 having the highest mv out of all the basic attacks, I do not like it. I've always been of the opinion that high & mid thrust should have the exact same mv's, because trying to differentiate them in any other way would inevitably result in either one of the two being objectively better in all/almost all situations(like high thrust in MHWB) or them being completely different attacks(like in the MHWs beta), losing their original purpose of attacking at different heights for precision. This simplicity is the core of the lance's basic combo, and as I just said, why I believe trying to make the thrusts different will always be a losing battle, as it makes the weapon needlessly complicated in a way that isn't beneficial to the weapon fantasy/gameplay. Now onto the more controversial opinion regarding the lance's basic combo. I do not like the new triple thrust finisher. Let me explain. The lance's basic combo works on a loop of attacks & positioning. 3 thrusts into hop into 3 thrusts again. This is perfect(like I have no idea how they got this perfect game design on the first try), as the lance is designed to be aggressive and precise, always attacking exactly where you want to. By having the hop move you back the exact amount you moved forward while doing your 3 thrusts is what allows the lance to have such high precision. You set yourself up next to the monsters weak point, and you literally never move from that spot, allowing you to always hit its weak spot. If the lance's optimal combo was instead designed to reset w/o resetting its position, the weapon would be a lot harder to precisely hit weak points with, as is evident with the charge reset that while it has higher dps is so cumbersome to use it is relegated to exclusively knockdown combos. Now, compare this to the wilds basic combo, where the optimal dps combo is 3 thrusts into the triple thrust finisher. This does not reset your positioning, and in my opinion ruins the flow of the weapon. Now you have to break you combo flow to get back into position as the basic combo no longer does so for you. They somewhat tried to fix this by allowing you to move backwards with your mid thrusts while in focus mode, however not only is this exclusive to mid thrusts, but doing so on mid thrust 3 actually lowers the mv, for some dumb reason, making it suboptimal. I believe that concludes my thoughts on the basic combo, however I have one more thing to say. Change for the sake of change is a VERY delicate thing, and while in some cases can be reasonable, in others it is nonsensical. I would advise against complimenting change for the sake of change like you did at the end of the basic combo section w/o a very good, deliberate reason to do so. Onto the new guarding and removal of the counter stance. First and foremost I HATE the automatic shield bash on perfect guard. I like the idea of having it there, but to force it onto the player sucks, as it not only removes their agency for what they want to do next but it also slows down their next move by forcing them to go through the animation first. I would prefer if they got rid of the mid thrust option after perfect guard and replaced it with this shield bash, that could then lead into the basic combo similar to how the shield bash out of guard dash did. Of course this change would have to go with my second change/complain, and that's payback thrust. It's too much commitment. Despite the design of monster hunter being all about animation commitments, the lance has stood with the DB and SnS as having shorter animations to better compliment it's weapon fantasy/playstyle of being hyper aggressive and always attacking. The payback thrust goes against this fundamental principle of the lance. This is especially noticeable when you realize payback thrust is suppose to be the new counter thrust. Of all the lance's move set, the counter thrust of all things should be low commitment as that's how the lance effortlessly transitions from defense to offense. By slowing that down, the entire weapon feels clunky. If they fix those two things, the new guard/perfect guard system will be a worthy successor to the counter stance, as it is more intuitive and less punishing(btw that's why there's chip dmg and stamina reduction to perfect block, it's the new counter stance and if the counter stance made you take no dmg or stamina hit it'd be broken). As for the charge counter, I've got no clue girl. I kinda hate it, as it adds literally nothing to the base lance kit. It isn't used to keep up the offense, that's what perfect guard is good for. It's not useful as a more powerful counter attack, as both getting to it is conditional and we already have the power guard counter thrust to fill that niche. Frankly, to me it just feels like a needless addition that I will probably forget about most of the time. But then again I might be missing some angle or some mechanics about it so I could be wrong on this. And here's where my thoughts get unorganized as I instead respond to what is presented in the video in order T-T. Anyways, wide sweep sucks and Capcom needs to stop making it viable/take it out of the kit entirely. It feels bad to use, so it's mostly kept suboptimal to use, making it's only purpose to clear out swarms of small monsters. Except it's not even good at that. Thank you for coming to my TED talk, please remove the wide sweep. Ah, guard dash, leaping thrust, and charge. These three moves have been the focus of most of my online discussions about the wilds lance, and for good reason. They suck now and for no reason. Guard dash and leaping thrust now cover significantly less distance in a slower amount of time, and the charges running speed was horribly gutted. This, frankly, feels horrible. The lance is the non-stop attacking weapon, and its kit is built around that. And there are two very important things for that playstyle to be viable. First is a fluid transition from defense to offense, the counter, and the second is the ability to keep up with the monster. And that's where leaping thrust, guard dash, and charge come in. Leaping thrust/guard dash fit PERFECTLY into the lance kit as they gave the it short-mid range burst mobility to stay in range of the monster, allowing the lance to keep up with the monsters that are moving all over the place. The charge is the less effective long range version of this. And for some dumb reason all of that was lost in the wilds lance. I don't even have much to say on this, it's genuinely just a bad decision made for no logical reason. And that's everything! Great video btw, even if I disagree with a lot of it I've found very few semi in-depth analysis of the wilds lance for me to nerd out about. As for what's made me smile recently, 2 things actually! I've gotten into cooking and it feels amazing to eat something you took time out of your day to make. Makes me feel very fulfilled. And secondly, winter is coming! My favorite season, I love how it feels when you go outside at around 18 O'clock in 40°(F) weather. If only I didn't get nosebleeds so easy in winter T_T.
@@Voxash It's a mixed bag, as I see people who like the changes the majority of the time are only using Mid Thrust with the new Guard mechanics. Which isn’t bad. But as a Lance player who uses the majority of the kit. Some major Flaws break how aggressiveyou could be. Compared to other weapons.
Funnily enough, now gunlance has a kinda similar counter to the old lance, thanks to the guard point on reloads, tho you can't hold it like old lance. I didn't give too much time to new lance, because I wasn't enjoying the changes, and gunlance was too fun and I couldn't put it down, but on release I'll give it another try.
lance counter thrust is a staple for lance for 15 years now, most old lancer like very fast paced nature of lance combat when master to interweave guarding and attacking.
i think that lance is not a counter weapon, but a parry weapon.
exchanging counter thrust to parry stance that work like perfect guard is a good mixup. last for 2s revert to guard, after parry you can cross slash, upper thrust, dash attack, guard, and guard advance
i dont like charge counter, with monster tells can be it will be as useful as silkbind teaher/twin vine during base rise too situational to use
all im seeing of focus mode is clutch claw and wound 2.0, the dev team saying to play my way spam wound to get optimal damage or spend 20+mins and get CCed by monster new hyper wiggly move set
perfect block having no down side is how you get hyper fast monster and true unblockable attack in sunbreak, its to strong.
all counter should consume stamina in my opinion, for all weapon.
i hope they fix the lance input jank, i dont mind recovery animation but dont eat my input in an action combat game capcom
lance mobility come from it moveset, hope they buff the distance of some the mobility moves
i dont like charge counter as a concept on a relatively safe weapon, why gamble on damage, give tools to say no to monster super moves. power guard has increased chip damage, moves like anchor rage even with no buff but scale with enemy attack damage sound more appealing
someone in capcom is insisting on putting charging machanics in weapons, why?
I understand what you are saying with the true unblock able attack in Sunbreak comment. Insta-block had a fairly tight timing to it, so I felt like you were rewarded for playing it well. But then they countered that by having moves that hit twice simultaneously, like Seathing Bazel's face-plant, or Apex Arzuros' claw-swipe. And that annoyed me a lot. As long as a truly unblockable attack is realistic in its timing, I have no issue. For example, Valstrax's ambush has a huge wind up, so you can sheathe and dive like normal weapons. It gets really out of order when it's Savage deviljho's pin in Iceborne that has hardly any tell, and the lance's moveset isn't well equipped to dodge. Especially if you're on a slope.
Yeah I agree that not all weapons need a charge move. It's a point I might note on a future video: That the weapons can start to feel homogenized because everything has a form of counter for example.
@amaninthewestmusic8389 true unblockable is not something i want capcom to implement, it fuqs with our trust with our tools/weapon, just knowing you need guard up is enough, it let decide on dps skill or utility skill that allow me to dps easily.
Plus when you have a shield, you cant a block an attack that certain weapon can i-frame it, it just feel bad.
As for multi hits attack im ok if the monster have limited range, no zig zaging like rise tobi, that thing is a manace. Yeah sunbreak monster if slowed down and lessen the distance they move cross the arena they be less hectic and fun to fight.
If all of sunbreak slikbind move have normalize damage and no wire bugcost its a dam good combat system
The problem with the argument between High Thrust and Mid Thrust is that it guarding slower and being so slow makes you not want to use the High Thrust at all. Also some fights you are forced to use the High Thrust. I don't know why they doing the changes to Mid Thrust, but the changes to High Thrust aren't good and will kill the weapon for a lot of people. The Counter Thrust isn't worth it in my opinion. I be better off if you could do a press-and-hold mechanic to use counterthrust when you are using High Thrust.
These changes will kill old players at least the High Thrust and Counter Thrust changes, and will make people drop the weapon, I feel like having a middle ground here would be better. Making the Counter Thrust a gamble doesn't make sense with the Lance. It's a counter you need to get it set up. When other weapons only take one attack to use their counters. This doesn't give more depth it gives more restrictions to the weapons and makes the weapons feel less fun.
Overall, the Leaping thrust being slower and Gaurd dash also being slower lowers variety in movement. Dash attack needs to speed up quicker so we can have a chance to chase the monster a bit before it truly runs away. High Thrust being slower than Worlds doesn't make people want to use the move when mid thrust already has better reasons to use it. Counter thrust being at the end of the combo isn't a gamble or gives use more depth it's a restriction in options for the Lance when other weapons got more moves. There's an easy way to make old lance players like these weapons more and that's reverting the High Thrust speed back and Counter thrust a press and hold mechanic. I like the new Lance but it has a problem. I can't defend the changes and I see too many people talking about dropping the weapon.
Totally agree with you. Lance is already not strong. Making high thrust a lil faster won't break any balance, especially now that we have the repositioning perk to incentivize using mid thrust.
@ Agree, I just want the bare minimum back to World Speeds and World recovery time on moves. Leaping Thrust being back to Three Ticks instead of Two would be nice. Guard Dash and Lealing Thrust combo back to what they were in Rise or World.
Counter Thrust I feel is the most important part that I see so many people not like. Even if the guard is better. I just hope Capcom has enough time.
I've never really used the lance but watching your video and the new changes in wilds are making me want to actually try it
Alright, I have a lot of thoughts on the lance, and although I've talked about pieces of them in various places I'm gonna try and lay them all out here. But the tldr is that I believe the lance to be worse, primarily because it's a completely different weapon. If you like that different weapon, that's perfectly fine, but I miss the old lance. But be prepared, I yapped a lot on this one 0_0.
To start with, the basic combo. This, combined with my next opinion on the new 4th thrusts, is actually one of my most complicated points. On the topic of high thrust being slower and mid thrust 3 having the highest mv out of all the basic attacks, I do not like it. I've always been of the opinion that high & mid thrust should have the exact same mv's, because trying to differentiate them in any other way would inevitably result in either one of the two being objectively better in all/almost all situations(like high thrust in MHWB) or them being completely different attacks(like in the MHWs beta), losing their original purpose of attacking at different heights for precision. This simplicity is the core of the lance's basic combo, and as I just said, why I believe trying to make the thrusts different will always be a losing battle, as it makes the weapon needlessly complicated in a way that isn't beneficial to the weapon fantasy/gameplay.
Now onto the more controversial opinion regarding the lance's basic combo. I do not like the new triple thrust finisher. Let me explain. The lance's basic combo works on a loop of attacks & positioning. 3 thrusts into hop into 3 thrusts again. This is perfect(like I have no idea how they got this perfect game design on the first try), as the lance is designed to be aggressive and precise, always attacking exactly where you want to. By having the hop move you back the exact amount you moved forward while doing your 3 thrusts is what allows the lance to have such high precision. You set yourself up next to the monsters weak point, and you literally never move from that spot, allowing you to always hit its weak spot. If the lance's optimal combo was instead designed to reset w/o resetting its position, the weapon would be a lot harder to precisely hit weak points with, as is evident with the charge reset that while it has higher dps is so cumbersome to use it is relegated to exclusively knockdown combos. Now, compare this to the wilds basic combo, where the optimal dps combo is 3 thrusts into the triple thrust finisher. This does not reset your positioning, and in my opinion ruins the flow of the weapon. Now you have to break you combo flow to get back into position as the basic combo no longer does so for you. They somewhat tried to fix this by allowing you to move backwards with your mid thrusts while in focus mode, however not only is this exclusive to mid thrusts, but doing so on mid thrust 3 actually lowers the mv, for some dumb reason, making it suboptimal. I believe that concludes my thoughts on the basic combo, however I have one more thing to say. Change for the sake of change is a VERY delicate thing, and while in some cases can be reasonable, in others it is nonsensical. I would advise against complimenting change for the sake of change like you did at the end of the basic combo section w/o a very good, deliberate reason to do so.
Onto the new guarding and removal of the counter stance. First and foremost I HATE the automatic shield bash on perfect guard. I like the idea of having it there, but to force it onto the player sucks, as it not only removes their agency for what they want to do next but it also slows down their next move by forcing them to go through the animation first. I would prefer if they got rid of the mid thrust option after perfect guard and replaced it with this shield bash, that could then lead into the basic combo similar to how the shield bash out of guard dash did. Of course this change would have to go with my second change/complain, and that's payback thrust. It's too much commitment. Despite the design of monster hunter being all about animation commitments, the lance has stood with the DB and SnS as having shorter animations to better compliment it's weapon fantasy/playstyle of being hyper aggressive and always attacking. The payback thrust goes against this fundamental principle of the lance. This is especially noticeable when you realize payback thrust is suppose to be the new counter thrust. Of all the lance's move set, the counter thrust of all things should be low commitment as that's how the lance effortlessly transitions from defense to offense. By slowing that down, the entire weapon feels clunky. If they fix those two things, the new guard/perfect guard system will be a worthy successor to the counter stance, as it is more intuitive and less punishing(btw that's why there's chip dmg and stamina reduction to perfect block, it's the new counter stance and if the counter stance made you take no dmg or stamina hit it'd be broken).
As for the charge counter, I've got no clue girl. I kinda hate it, as it adds literally nothing to the base lance kit. It isn't used to keep up the offense, that's what perfect guard is good for. It's not useful as a more powerful counter attack, as both getting to it is conditional and we already have the power guard counter thrust to fill that niche. Frankly, to me it just feels like a needless addition that I will probably forget about most of the time. But then again I might be missing some angle or some mechanics about it so I could be wrong on this.
And here's where my thoughts get unorganized as I instead respond to what is presented in the video in order T-T. Anyways, wide sweep sucks and Capcom needs to stop making it viable/take it out of the kit entirely. It feels bad to use, so it's mostly kept suboptimal to use, making it's only purpose to clear out swarms of small monsters. Except it's not even good at that. Thank you for coming to my TED talk, please remove the wide sweep. Ah, guard dash, leaping thrust, and charge. These three moves have been the focus of most of my online discussions about the wilds lance, and for good reason. They suck now and for no reason. Guard dash and leaping thrust now cover significantly less distance in a slower amount of time, and the charges running speed was horribly gutted. This, frankly, feels horrible. The lance is the non-stop attacking weapon, and its kit is built around that. And there are two very important things for that playstyle to be viable. First is a fluid transition from defense to offense, the counter, and the second is the ability to keep up with the monster. And that's where leaping thrust, guard dash, and charge come in. Leaping thrust/guard dash fit PERFECTLY into the lance kit as they gave the it short-mid range burst mobility to stay in range of the monster, allowing the lance to keep up with the monsters that are moving all over the place. The charge is the less effective long range version of this. And for some dumb reason all of that was lost in the wilds lance. I don't even have much to say on this, it's genuinely just a bad decision made for no logical reason.
And that's everything! Great video btw, even if I disagree with a lot of it I've found very few semi in-depth analysis of the wilds lance for me to nerd out about. As for what's made me smile recently, 2 things actually! I've gotten into cooking and it feels amazing to eat something you took time out of your day to make. Makes me feel very fulfilled. And secondly, winter is coming! My favorite season, I love how it feels when you go outside at around 18 O'clock in 40°(F) weather. If only I didn't get nosebleeds so easy in winter T_T.
I just know my buddy who has always disliked lance. Picked it up and played just lance the whole time. So it must be good. 😂
No that just means they changed lance to something that it's not before.
@@Voxash It's a mixed bag, as I see people who like the changes the majority of the time are only using Mid Thrust with the new Guard mechanics. Which isn’t bad. But as a Lance player who uses the majority of the kit. Some major Flaws break how aggressiveyou could be. Compared to other weapons.
Let's talk lance. Yeah! I don't care what people say. It felt great to me in the demo. I am going to use it....A LOT.
@rechelieu you might say "Lance A LOT!" hehe ... OK I'll see myself out.