Villainpedia: Dormin.. or Wander?
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- Опубликовано: 28 июл 2024
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Dormin and Wander share a special bond in Shadow of the Colossus, but Dormin has long been considered the villain... why is this? Let's find out the truth behind these characters and this incredible game's story.
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00:00 - Light & Dark
04:17 - A Meeting
12:58 - A Shadow of the Past
20:46 - Live Spirits
22:12 - The Boy
26:34 - Colossi
34:19 - Action & Consequence
48:41 - So..?
56:16 - Connecting the Thoughts
1:00:53 - Legacy
thank you to @10mingaming10 for the wonderful play through footage
#shadowofthecolossus#dormin#wander#villainpedia#lore#explained 
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And here I thought GC didn't take sponsors, smh
(But nah props to your bro, those look sick af)
You should analyze main villian of Xenoblade 3 Moebius Z.
I think it's super cool to support your brother, you got my service.
why is your pfp a sad fool?
I wanted to bring up another line of characterization for Dormin in that they say "We have borrowed the body of this warrior..." when possessing Wander. I found it interesting that they say "Borrow" as if they are intending to return his body at some point. As well as the respect in using the term "Warrior" to describe the scraggly little boy they have grown to respect. I genuinely think that while Dormin may have used Wander and Mono's bodies as vessels, they may not have ever intended for either to die or be harmed.
I think you just really want dormin to not be evil
@@grilledleeks6514 He's hot tho😩
@@grilledleeks6514well he is a god of life and death... That's a taboo thing in society but he doesn't do anything evil in the game... He very thoroughly warned wander about the path he's taking... His bargain for the colossi to resurrect mono is coz he was literally too weak without them... He tries to protect wander and also himself from amon... And he keeps his promise in the end
@levisamom5069 he made us kill the guardians. Then he killed the random dudes who followed wander here. Oh and he possessed wander.
I'll wait for you to explain how any of those were "good" things
@grilledleeks6514 Dormin didn't make Wander kill anything. He tells Wander what is required for his desire to revive Mono and warns him that there will be a heavy price.
None of Lord Emon's followers died though. He gives it the ol' college try but even then they aren't "just random dudes" they are Emon's guards and they attack and possibly kill Wander.
As for possessing Wander, firstly Dormin explicitly says he is "borrowing" Wander's body. Secondly he only does so AFTER Wander has been stabbed through the chest and probably dies. At best, Dormin is trying to keep Wander alive, and at worst, he's possessing a corpse.
It would be a tragic irony if the cruel fate that Mono was given was the resurrection of Dormin. Wander and Mono's people read the stars or something and saw that she was fated to bring forth the return of Dormin. She was then sacrificed to try and prevent this fate from occurring, which of course causes Wander to defy his people and bring back his loved one. In this case I'd say there is no villain but the ones who sealed Mono's fate in the first place. A misreading of fate once again the cause of great tragedy.
legit what I thought
That's how I saw it, given that we gain control of the body of Dormin at the end.
Which means Dormins mind went somewhere else.
For me at least.
Exactly what I was thinking after getting to the tail end of the video
The line about her being sacrificed for having a cursed fate just screams self-fulfilling prophecy
where are people getting lore from game with no dialogue? i played this on ps2, did they add something in remakes?
@@mattdekker5693 there is dialogue my man, always has been
another point about your theory:
whenever dormins energy enters wander, he gets stronger, he is invigorated, he gets a longer health bar and more stamina to fight on with, so your point that the yang enters wander checks out.
what about the food that permanently lowers it?
The thing I love about Dormin is he never lied to Wander. He upheld his end of the bargain and also told Wander BEFORE he went on his quest he'd have to pay a heavy price. Wander is the one who brushed it aside, because he knew he had crossed past the point of no return the second he stole the sword and came to those lands. You could even say Dormin should be applauded for his principles, because even though he is bound to one space, he still is willing to be upfront with Wander.
the moment a death god is more honest about a contract then modern companys
Personally I've always found it really interesting that Dormin refers to Wander as "Warrior" when to me I've always thought of him as some sort of civilian in his tribe judging by his attire, stature and age; It's always felt like a sign of respect from him as Emon and the guardsmen seem to very much look down on him although that could just be because of his most recent actions but Emon especially gives this air of pomposity and I could see him absolutely shutting down any objection or questions Wander would have concerning the sacrifice of Mono
This is pretty much how I feel as well. To me, when Wander was first given the task of slaying the Colossus, even with the sword, Dormin had doubts about if he would actually be able to. But by succeeding he earns his respect, and that contributes to Dormin fulfilling his end of the deal, even if you want to believe Wander was being completely tricked, it’s just how it feels to me. Wander’s swings show how clumsy he is with a weapon, so that title of “Warrior” from Dormin feels very much like a recognition of his accomplishments.
Emon is utterly detestable. Not only did he take Mono's life for no reason other than superstition (and in doing so bringing about the "cursed fate" he claims he sacrificed her to avoid to begin with), but he is pompous, arrogant, and completely unwilling to listen to anyone. Nope, he knows best, everyone else is wrong, no point in discussion.
Yeah I think it's from defeating what amounts to titans
@@WobblesandBeani always thought Dormin reminded me of the demonification of Baal, who was essentially a hero god to the people who worshipped him
@@TheParadoxGamer1 To be fair, almost every god that is the subject of worship is a hero to its followers. And Dormin can't really be compared since he's implied to have a demonic nature
I have a theory about Dormin:
When Wander first enters the tower, Dormin's voice had both a male and female side. As the game goes on, the male voice becomes more dominant. I believe that Dormin was, in fact, two separate entities that split as the ritual continued: the male counterpart going into Wander and the female going into Mono. The only difference is the female entity was going into a body that was basically in stasis while Wander's body became more attuned to the male entity with each colossus slain; Wander's body was becoming less human as the game went on because he was the more active party.
After the final colossus was killed and all hell broke loose, I believe the female entity chose to stay still because she didn't have the power to fight alongside her other half. With the male entity sealed away once again, she is now the dominant entity and that's why she chose to nurture the newly horned child. She'll eventually feed off it and become the Queen from ICO. Dormin continues to exist which was its very goal. If the Queen had managed to consume Ico and Yorda, Dormin would've returned to the land.
I remember hearing that theory a long time ago as well, and I personally agree with it, other that the caveat that Dormin STARTS as a “They.”
They even say *WE* instead of *I* throughout the game, even at the end, though it’s very clear the Male aspect is within Wander.
That’s how they freed themselves really, by releasing the pieces into the world, half into Wander, and half into Mono.
The potential plan might have even been to have a child between the two of them who would inherit the complete set of pieces that made up Dormin, but that’s pure speculation
A solid theory with a strong foundation! Nice!
That's not a theory, that's blatantly and obviously what the game implies. I thought everyone knew that.
It's a very solid theory, but I think the one thing that challenges it is how Dormin is most likely referring to "us" as the multitude of fragments that they had sealed away
@@eliasgalindo5578 …huh, I never considered that before, interesting!
Here's my personal interpretation of Dormin, the Forbidden Lands, etc:
So the Forbbiden Lands were once overseen by a deity of life, renewal, and rebirth. This god being the patron allowed the land to be abundant with vitality and life, and there were 16 (possibly more) guardians that not only defended the land, but tended to it as well. One day, the denizens of the Forbidden Lands went from worshipping this god to craving its power, and so they began constructing a tower to try and reach this god. However, unlike the Tower of Babel, they actually succeeded, taking this god's power and all amalgamating into one singular being: Dormin. The neighboring nations, seeing this atrocity, invaded the Forbidden Lands and--using the sword--sealed away their power into the sixteen guardians.
Now as for his plans with Wander, I interpret Dormin's relative indifference as that of a patient immortal being. Wander possibly isn't the first, nor was he expected to be the last, individual who came seeking Dormin's power. Dormin knows that one day he'll be set free, but until then he's more than willing to wait it out and humor any mortal that comes seeking his aid.
Now there are three things that are to take note of: The pool, the sword, and the tower above the temple. To me, these three things essentially embody the three aspects of Dormin. The tower signifies life, the sword signifies death, and the pool signifies renewal. By throwing the sword (death) into the pool (renewal) you're not just destroying Dormin, but allowing him to be reborn. Meanwhile, the peak of the tower, the closest spot to where the previous god once lived, is the richest spot of life in the valley. Thus sacrificing Dormin, using Wander as a vessel, has allowed all the people who were once part of the Forbidden Lands to be reborn and start over.
But doesn't the game state that the Colossi were made for the purpose of sealing away the fragments of Dormin?
The villain of Shadow of the Colossus is Emon.
Emon holds a position of power within the tribe and from Emon we learn that Mono was put to death, "sacrificed", because of a "cursed fate". It's reasonable to assume that Emon holds at least partial responsibility for Mono's death and and I believe he was the one who probably the one to decide Mono's execution in the first place seeing how he so quickly commands Wander's death by the end of the game. And who is the last fight in the game? Emon and his men, after they had already dealt a killing blow to Wander.
We're never told what Mono's "cursed fate" was, it could have been that her "cursed fate" was to be part of Dormin's return, which would be the irony in Emon killing her. Because Emon seeing that Mono would lead to the return of what's basically a godlike entity, he would kill her to prevent it only to find that killing her was the catalyst to send Wander on a journey to bring her back with Dormin's help.
Everything is Emon's fault. Wander, Mono and Dormin all are victims to his fear. Because instead of trying to find a way to prevent Mono's "cursed fate" he chose to remove what he thought was the chance of it happening.
Yup, this is exactly how I feel as well. All of it. I think this is also supported by the fact that all of Team Ico games involve a civilization that is ignorant and eager to commit atrocities against the innocent for no reason other than baseless superstition.
Yeah I also always got the feeling this was just humans/people sequestering something beyond them out of a fear of a lack of control. Dormin even acknowledges that it was the perceived attitude of humans to be against altering life when questioning Wander on his intentions. At every turn Dormin kept Wander an informed agent, with the ultimate conflict playing out by the actions of Emon. Whether or not Emon himself is responsible for putting Dormin in its condition or keeping it that way, it's clear there is a strict refusal to even acknowledge any possibility beyond those already enacted (no prison warden will actually believe their prisoner's explanation).
I've always loved this game, especially it's ending. On one hand, I don't think Dormin's indifference necessarily makes him a neutral party in all this - my read was always just that he had no need for things like manipulation and lies simply because Wander did not care about the consequences and would do what was asked regardless. The only thing in question was whether or not Wander could even succeed, as he's likely not the first to try.
On the other hand, we do very clearly see that even in defeat Dormin held up his end of the bargain, even if we the players aren't aware of the context or consequences of it all. I'd always thought that the change in Dormin's voice wasn't necessarily because a part of him was going to Mono, but that one part of him (this shadow we see Wander containing and bringing back) was growing stronger and overwhelming the other. Maybe it was for good reason parts of Dormin were sealed away, and that this 'balance' we hear him begin with but that crumbles away over time is caused by our actions. It might be the way he was meant to be, or it might be part of what keeps him shackled and weak.
If anything though, Emon feels like the true villain of this story, being responsible for what happened to Mono and setting all of this in motion. But again, without context we can't even be sure of that. I think that is ultimately the best part of this game - that every player who sits and thinks about what we've seen can come to a different conclusion about the story as a whole.
Wonderful video as always Ghost!
My take is that Dormin is a deity of a rival tribe that was conquered /integrated by the tribe that Lord Emon and Wander belong to.
Fearing the power of this angry god, Emon’s predecessors sealed its power into the colossi which embody the people/animals of the forbidden lands that were once populated.
Mono is descended from a bloodline related to that old kingdom and is sacrificed as a consequence. They were possibly discriminated against by the village Wander and Mono are from.
Just to add to the old testament link Wander's belt very closely resembles a gartel which is a belt with knotted strings hanging down that you see mostly in Hacidic communities. You could also see his tabard as a tallit, basically a prayer shawl. Its too short to be a cape and goes over the front. Too short to actually be a tabard too. I think the designers are leaning into an old testament Jewish theme which is kinda cool to see honestly. Hell, on going back and watching some of the scenes, the way Wander is framed, he hair under the headband looks a lot like he has long hair under a yarmulke, or an older version of the skullcap rather than it being his hair
Ok so here's what I think:
Dormin is a comingling of the egos of once-living souls, a bit like the crystal in Atlantis: The Lost Empire. Its layered voice, and the smaller shades which join with it, are a reflection of the fact that Dormin is the bundled-together power of numerous ancient dead. Clearly, it is in this way powerful enough to grant wishes (such as, or even exclusively, the resurrection of the dead), which immediately suggests the reason for why it was bound and locked away: the temptation of asking to use that power, even in exchange for a terrible price, was too great in the eyes of the ancient civilisation's leaders (they were probably scared of political opponents who can never really die), so Dormin was shackled, severed, and locked away in a dead land - one from which it can take no more power.
I would hazard that Dormin can only subsume the spirits of animals, but it's possible that this even narrows right down to just humans, hence the nuclear option of abandoning an entire nation and getting the fuck out of dodge, permanently. As such, I think the Colossi are man-made fetishes, possibly created using Dormin's own power (Dormin doesn't really seem to have any thoughts on resurrecting Mono, other than giving Wander a fairly earnest warning), then later used to wrest the many melded souls from Dormin's single consciousness into 16 different parts - each corresponding not only to the place they would be set down, but also the character of the spirits stored therein.
A point on the accord, and Dormin's own character. First, Dormin has every right to be pissed off with the ancient civilisation, and with the people who maintain their original stance on its existence: there is no evil in what Dormin does, nor inherent good. It only grants requests, exacting an appropriate price - such as the case of Wander, where I think the reason he became an infant is due to his life being conferred unto Mono. It would make sense, in an equilibrium way, that the only way the Mighty Spirit who controls life and death can give life is by taking it away from someone else; so, Mono now has as many years to live as Wander gave her by returning to extreme youth. Hell, they might be linked in some way now, but that's going a bit further than I'm willing to chance.
I don't really have any idea how Dormin may have come to be, but the power that glowing water pool and the sword together unleashed makes me think the ancients were fiddling with the border between life and death - perhaps, in need of more power for their experiments, they pooled their resources and created the fledgling Dormin (that may have even been a person's name, or it could be a symbolic name for the connection between the realm of mortals and immortals _a lá_ tower of babel between heaven and earth). Dormin, as a creature made of spirits and intimately connected to the other side, had the power to pull souls from out of death, but only for an appropriate price, so as to not disturb the balance of nature - thus earning its connotations with Life and Nature, as well as with Death. Unfavourably (so, neutrally) disposed towards its creators, Dormin would have been seen as a major threat (think Frankenstein here) because of the unpredictable variables of a) having a bit of free will, and b) not giving a shit about the nation's leaders' plans.
So, Dormin got locked up, split up, and sealed away in a dead land. The fact nothing _at all_ lives out on those vast plains now means the ancients literally picked up their stuff and, on their way out, _slaughtered everything bigger than a fish in the entire kingdom._ Now I cannot make any proposals as to the morality of Dormin, or Wander, but I *can* say that fucking butchering an entire ecosystem because you're not mature enough to treat your own creation like a fucking person is... disgusting. Any hardship that ruling class endured in their exodus from their homeland is utterly deserved, to the last iota of misery. The normal people likely had no say in it, or lacked context, so they probably suffered immensely for nothing. It's this that makes me think Mono was likely killed because her fate was to be the lynchpin in the reconstitution of Dormin - and the ruling class, having learned absolutely nothing in the THOUSANDS OF YEARS since they left the Forbidden Lands, just went and sacrificed her like "yep that's definitely solved all our problems. hey what's for dinner?" So, naturally, Wander stole her body and the ancient sword, traipsed off to the FL, killed him a few giant soul-binding fetishes, and got his wish granted. Incredible. Simple. Hell, Dormin even spoke to him with honorifics, which it was under no obligation to do, even for the sake of manipulation. Even when POSSESSING WANDER, Dormin still refers to him as 'this warrior', so I'm inclined to believe Dormin respects the unjudgmental desperation of the young hero.
I don't know how the sword was made, but considering as reuniting it with the magical pool led to all errant souls (besides Mono's) being dragged back to the other side, I'm gonna guess that the sword is the first thing Dormin procured for the ancients - _or,_ the sword was what the ancients used to make Dormin. Either way, that blade has some kind of connection to primordial Light, and it does not count as a 'mortal weapon' (as per Dormin when it first spots the blade), so I'm going to guess that it is made from the same light which pulled Dormin back into the otherworld. The light it beams out - which is not dependent on the sun - certainly hints at the possibility.
Finally, the secret garden. This is a mystery which, I think, can only be solved with the idea brought up in relation to Mono, that the ancients could somehow read fate. If they could, then they would build the garden - possibly prior to the creation of Dormin - to house and rehabilitate the people making use of its power. Little did they know, their construction of the place would be Dormin's final little 'fuck you', as it's the only place they didn't cull into dust, and the place where Dormin's rescuer, and that rescuer's ward, are destined to live out the first stages of their reborn life, just as the first ancients who made bargains would have done.
The Tower of Babel was built by a unified people all speaking the same language, right? Then brought down by god through division, like how Dormin was divided up into the colossi.
So when Dormin tries to be reunified but does so through a pact that divides them into Yin and Yang, it makes sense they've repeated the same mistake and ended up sealed away again as two opposite entities this time, Mono coming back from death as she is and Wander becoming reborn anew, both containing half of this almost-god
I really like the idea of dormin not being complete even at the end of the game. Perhaps the reason we only hear the masculine side once wander is possessed because in order to bring mono back dormin instilled her with the feminine aspect. This would tie in well with the traditional viewing of masculinity as aggressive and femininity as nurturing, as wander slays the colossi and becomes this almost avatar of darkness, mono is given life. A violent, tearing transformation. A gentle, quiet awakening.
banger
30:47 it might explain why there are no other mobs attacking you: if there were, you’d just think of the Colossi as hostile bosses and the minions around them, instead of lonely giants wandering around, beasts that don’t harm you until you harm them: it makes me wish we could’ve learned the thoughts and feelings of these beasts, like a final breath or thought before they die.
37:56 oh my GOD, I remember crying so hard at this scene, it broke my heart, it just proved to me that fate wasn’t smiling on Wander, and… that poor horse didn’t deserve it.
And my argument is that Dormin isn’t evil, but neither is Wander. Wander has good intentions, and he doesn’t wish to bring chaos to the world. Dormin has power over life and death, and he isn’t quite evil: he’s kinda pagan in a way.
this game feels like living through an ancient mesopotamian myth. The quest itself is so simple and human, wanting to see a lost loved one again, but the factors and forces in play are so obscure and eldritch in nature that we will never fully understand what truly happened and what it could all mean
I think an interesting "villain" you could cover would be the reapers from the Mass Effect series. Mass Effect 1-3 are some of my favorite games of all time, and I think the reapers are a fascinating antagonist. They are an ever present threat and the way they are presented is unique. Commander Sheppard is one of the few people in the galaxy that is aware of their true purpose, but it takes time to piece together, and basically no one believes you until it's too late which I think is pretty spot on for how it would go in real life lol... Please let me know what you think! It would be awesome to hear you cover them!
I feel like an interesting analogue is dead space, it's kind of like of life lost in mass effect. The brother moons and the reapers have a lot in common when you think about it, from their seeding of life, manipulation through artifacts, gathering of biomass, part of an eternal cycle of growing and culling sentient life like a crop, and so on. It's just Isaac Clark wasn't a politician like shepherd and couldn't unite his people against the threat, even if he was key in the fight.
Been watching for quite a while now and I think this is genuinely the best video you have made yet. The breakdown of if Dormin can even really be considered a villain was fantastic while really elevating the format of this series and I love the way you interpreted the story to tie a beautiful bow on the video. Really impressive stuff, I love the passion you clearly put into this.
Been watching you for quite a while now
One other subtle change as you progress is that the male part of the voice of Dormin becomes stronger, and the female part of the voice sounds more sickly compared to when you first start. Of course I get to the end of the video where you mention that you're only left with the male voice.
Something interesting I've noticed about Dormin is his seeming role as a Cthonic Psychopomp.
Many Cthonic deities are not directly worshipped or even spoken of by their supposed true names for fear of getting their attention. While his name being a reverse of Nimrod has an explanation, it's still a form of obfuscation surrounding his name.
And Psychopomps are those that guide the dead to the afterlife, whatever kind of afterlife that is. The fact that Dormin can restore life, bring a soul back to a body, is a reflection of that idea.
By definition I think the antagonist would be Lord Ebin, because his goal is to obstruct your goal (you being the protagonist because you enable the plot happening), and thus Dormin’s goal. And you defeat the antagonist by releasing Dormin, although you don’t quite get away with it. You’re right Wander is the Protagonist and Dormin is the Deuteragonist though; Dormin is almost like a foil character.
I truly believe Emon was the villain in this tale. He had mono killed and hunted down wander to stop him from returning Dormin to the world. Wander knew he was taking a one-way trip, and Dormin was upfront about the deal being made. Return mono to life, and he never said wander would die. He needed a vessel for his power, so why destroy his vessel? "We are dormin," meaning the half he put into wander and the half into mono. Emon killed Wander and only then did Dormin act. Until then, wander while weak was still himself, and dormin was already released. They each held up their end of the bargain. Mono revived, and Dormin was released. Emon was the only one in my mind who acted selfishly out of fear of Dormins return.
For me, the villains in both Ico and Shadow of the Colossus are the outside world. Both games share this common theme of lovers against the world, and it's the world that crashes in around them, imposing its order. Usually with an alien religious aspect to it. This was common theming in a lot of early 2000s video games. As was this soft grey grand world aesthetic. I mean, clearly you were around for it, but go back and take a look anyway! Twilight Princess, Shadow of The Colossus, FFXII, Arc the Lad 4, Lost Odyssey, and many more!
As far as the colossi go... To me, the larger lumbering ones are generally the most docile, whereas the smaller ones seem to be openly hostile. Then again, some of the larger ones wield weapons, and they do take swings at you. To me, it seems they were built to be weapons, perhaps weapons for defense, but weapons all the same. Made to be powered by the fragments of this god, Dormin. But even before you start killing them, at least iirc, there's some environmental clues that Dormin's not all bound up completely within them.
For starters, he can talk to anyone in the Hall of Worship, if he deigns to speak. For another, the black phantoms appear to Wander before he even kills any of the colossi. These walkings giants aren't perfect seals, and little by little, Dormin is leaking out. This has caused some of the fauna that still live in this land to change, chiefly the geckos. Around at the save points (shrines of prayer), iirc, shadow of the 19 years ago brain fog, amirite? Anyway, around the save point shrines there are these black geckos with bright blue tails. You can kill them and collect/eat their tails, and this increases your stamina. They have unnaturally wavery black and blue fluroescent bodies, and to me, it always seemed as though the phantoms from Dormin had seeped into them and perhaps the land itself.
I think upon realizing this, the people who once lived there and worshipped Dormin, or maybe the colossi themselves, decided to leave and seal off the region in hopes of avoiding the ill effects of Dormin. Which to me seem to be steady possession, like the geckos, but more than that sacrifice for miracles. A common way to portray a religion negatively, particularly older more tribal religions, is introducing or revealing the sacrificial nature inherent in them. I think we see this every time the black phantoms in the shape of people surround Wander. Dormin is the collective of the people who were sacrificed to him in the past, man, woman, or animal. We see the animal aspect in the colossi, but once again when he is freed in his horns, cloven feet, and spider leg like wings. The most commonly sacrificed animals all have horns or antlers.
It seems that the people had not yet shied away from the idea of sacrifice, since it's noted that Mono was killed by sacrifice, though the method of her death must have been through some non-violent poison, since there are no blemishes fouling her flesh. In spite of this, they changed their laws to be opposed to those of Dormin, if Dormin even has any laws other than his demands in exchange for his power.
So I think it's like you alluded to at the beginning. The concept of control. More or less I see Dormin as a being of nature, shackled by hubristic men into the colossi. Whatever the reason they left, it seems to be to put men in control, because even though Dormin is natural, a god by its nature will have men worship it. Will have men offer supplication in hopes of receiving things beyond their own power. Will have men worship god instead of other men, those evil men with the will to dominate emanating from the core of their overly ambitious souls.
So in a way it's a tale about reclamation of lost heritage, true faith, and the power of love. And how the house of man fails men by killing love for their evil aim of controlling and shackling everything there is and can be.
God, I love open ended myths like this, don't you?
I think Dormin isn't a villian but rather his sphere of influence would have been ruinoius for the way of life of those that feared him. Dormin is a being that governs life and death in a world that seems to have the magic and luster slowly bleeding away. Dormin's return would obviously be revitalizing to the world...but what else would be so energized? Dormin doesn't have to be hostile to cause harm. And it definitely doesn't seem to be hostile. Even warning of the possible consequences. But humans are emotional and short tempered. So the wisdom of a god is left unheeded. Not Dormin's problem as he just wants to be free. Humans can take care of human business.
Oh, I've always been firmly on Dormin's side. All games in this series have heavily implied that the main civilization is ignorant and commits atrocities against the innocent for no reason other than baseless superstition. Ico, Mono, Toriko, etc.
Wander's village elders took Mono's life for no reason, if they'd left her alone the "cursed fate" would have never come to pass. And if Dormin was evil, they wouldn't have held up their end of the deal, and they wouldn't have been truthful with Wander.
I would Love to see you talk more about ICO. Especially for its own merits. I don’t discourage the theorycrafting that ties Ueda’s games together, but I feel like people sometimes forget that ICO’s narrative was meant to stand alone when it released. Even as he was finishing up work on ICO, Ueda had no idea what game he would make next, or if he’d even get the chance. In this way, the game is worth examining without the lens we were given by Shadow, because it set out to tell its own story. Sometimes it feels like people don’t respect that aspect of it.
And in general, I feel the game doesn’t get inspected nearly as much as its counterpart. Which is a shame because it is similarly a game with a very simple core but incredibly detailed design. The world of the game is very rich in architectural structure with real purposes that imply so much. And there’s a lot to observe in terms of scrapped dialogue and plot elements that show what kind of narrative tools the designers were playing around with, what they left behind and what they kept also says a lot.
In short, yeah, I’d love to watch a 1 hour rant on ICO from you some day.
This Last Hour of Content was stunning. The way you are doing these Videos is so incredible to me, I didnt even play the Game but the way you explained the Story and connected some dots, explained Theorys and stated your own perception of Yin and Yang catched my breath. Standing Ovation for you Ghost, these Videos have such a High quality and I really appreciate the work you put into These. Also I want to Say that this Game has such an Amazing Style / Art for me with these Mesopotamia kind of Buildings and the indigenous kind of Clothing really made a really unique feeling of an Fantasy culture. Best descision to take the Time for this Video to watch it as a complete. much love from Germany
Babe wake up, ghostcharm made a video about the best game ever made.
Idk, this doesn't look like WarioWare to me
For real woke up when he posted this today.
I currently can't decide which Timesplitters game is the best so I'll give you the w. Ill travel in time to edit this post when I can decide.
Yes honey
Strange Barbie’s Horse Adventure looks different
This is one of my favorite games of all times!! I've played it for countless hours when I was a teen, and even more countless hours when Blue Point remade the game from the ground up. -Chefs kiss- I've always thought that the colossi is a container for Dormins power, and Dormin is an old god that the people rose up against and imprisoned Dormin. I've never seen any good or evil in this, just a moral gray. Also you're brothers sprites are amazing. I wish him luck with his business.
Something that is worth noting when viewing Dormin is the surrounding area. The Forbidden Lands with areas that are collapsed ruins, sunken temples, underwater, sand, and green. I think it's fair to assume the area was not like that before and may have been populated.
I think Dormin may be a natural disaster given form for the sake of destruction and rebirth. Dormin, whether by nature or by choice, causes death around him. But in the death of the people and the area they live, life finds a way.
To add to this moral gray thought process: Just like what was brought up here in this video Wander doesn't know much about wielding a sword, yet when Dormin takes his body he specifically states he is "Borrowing the body of this Warrior". Seeing how Mono is resurrected in the end has me believing Dormin lived up to their end of the bargain in this pact when by all accounts some all powerful deity who just got their powers back didn't have to do so. This makes me believe that with the actions and words said by Dormin there was no Faustian Bargain here to begin with and that it was an exchange on equal terms between Wander and Dormin. It really makes it all have more layers of complexity and draws in the audience more to dig for more answers, even if we'll never get them. This game is a masterpiece and has a level of story telling I wish would continue or be recreated again to this day.
Stonecoat is your older brother!? I've been watching his stuff for a while as well. It's very cool that both of you make such wonderful content.
The thing is, it's easy to see Dormin's resurrection scene as one of them trying to get revenge on Emon or just the people generally for sealing him, but Dormin never says so, they merely note that these people are the ones that sealed them and that they are borrowing Wander's body. Since Dormin doesn't actually manifest until Wander is killed, you could read it as Dormin trying to help Wander achieve his goal by trying to reach Mono, and attacking the followers of Emon is only to try to stop them from placing the seal on the temple, as they announce they are going to do.
I love your videos my dude, genuinely quality stuff.
My only issue with this one was, as someone who listens to these and doesn't really watch them because I'm at work, that section at the beginning where people were just talking in a lamguage i cannot understand went on for a really REALLY long time. Maybe cut those down in the future? Your narration is supeb after all
I feel like when Dormin emerges when Wander is killed, Dormin seems like he's genuinely upset that the villagers murdered Wander.
Dormin to me somehow seems like a sympathetic being, just from his appearance and actions.
Argo give major Artrax vibes from the never ending story. i love myself some of that best friend in an animal vibes
I think an interesting thing to point out with Dormin and his character is that i think Dormin would've at least kept his agreement even if he wasn't going to be seal and it's because of one line he says "I have *borrowed* the body of this warrior" not taken, not using, borrowed
This game is an artistic masterpiece. I'm so glad Fumito Ueda left so much of the story ambiguous. So much more intriguing when we don't get all the answers, IMO.
I'm reminded of an old quote "Villains act. Heroes react."
I think this is a game that flips things on its head a bit , especially with more or less rubbing out the moral element due to our lack of information.
I have loved all of your videos I have seen so far, even about games I have never played or intend to lol. This one was very solid and maybe it says something about the game and how powerful it is but I cried a couple times during this and I have never played it... I would love to see some final fantasy stuff, I don't know if you are into those at all. Kefka for villianpedia specifically. I am always down for more fallout content, The Master and Frank Horrigan are probably my favorite videos you have done so far 🤙. Crosscode has a great story and needs more recognition if you wanted a more obscure title.
As far as Shadow of the Colossus goes, I haven't played but I feel like that end sequence with ol girl waking up and the horse limpin' in was too good to be true. Like maybe it was in Wander's head, maybe he is still conscious as part of Dormin sealed away and that outcome was him dreaming. Then again, that really doesn't seem to check out what with it being a prequel to that other game and I'd rather believe that the girl and the horse are alright. Just a thought.
I think what happened is that Dormin was always there, but at the beginning his real form was that which he reveals at the end, but by some event his soul was split apart into 16 different beings and after he realizes that this man named Wander has the tools necessary to hunt down those colossi he makes a deal, i mean it's pretty straightforward that once you kill a colossus you absord their souls, those black tendrils that chase you no matter what. And by the end Dormin takes control of you finally manifesting in his real and complete form.
Making me feel like i was doing something entirely wrong was what made this game my favorite, hell they don't even stop at you having to witness a cinematic colossus death scene, by the end of the game you get cutscene after cutscene of every single dead colossi just lying in the ground dead some even turned into rock after you killed them, which is a really nice mechanic aswell if you return to the place you previously killed a colossi you can replay it in a flashback type of way it was insane for 2005 and still holds up.
As for Wander coming back as a baby it goes back to purity as they did with Mono, a baby is seen as a being that cannot and has no sins or sinful behavior he's just a newborn, so Wander coming back as a baby is a way of saying that he's cleansed of all evil but he's branded with a mark of sin, the horns. Probably a reference to the original sin babies have when they are born, at least in Christianity that is.
I definitely will say Dormin is the evil bastard here, here’s something to think about, the forbidden lands were closed from outsiders but after the end of shadow of the colossus we learn that the colossi were souls of Dormin sealed, it wasn’t the first time it was defeated, so whoever defeated it last time was definitely trying to prevent the history from repeating, it’s also worth noting the Evis was suppose to look like a giant devil goat and dormin’s body was exactly the base shape of it.
Your videos are so in depth and well made, I love watching them so much! You would make an amazing video about Handsome Jack from the Borderlands series, he’s got so much history and character!
I assume that since Wander knew what he had to do, knew where to go, I'm almost certain he'd know why he shouldn't have done it. Now, my theory is a stretch, as it connects to Ico, but its likely possible that her cursed fate was either be sacrificed, or become the Queen. I feel she's sealed away, waiting for the perfect reincarnation of Wander, which is why the horned boys are sacrificed to her.
I have a pretty wild theory thanks to some points I've picked up over the years of playing both releases of SOTC and ICO.
The civilisation that inhabited the ancient lands was built around a ruling nobility who were either outright immortal, or had a cyclical rebirth through being inhabited by Dormin, in exchange for sacrifice/worship of mortals. Status in this nobility was determined by how much of Dormin's characteristics they showed, darkness/horns for Dormin's yin and light/energy for Yang.
Dormin prior to this was simply the governing force of death/rebirth yet this nobility anthropormorphised them through their actions, giving the force a form of consciousness, first by giving them a name, then allowing them to experience mortal life. The use of rituals in SOTC gives credence to this. They took advantage of Dormin's desire to actually exist, rather than simply being a disembodied force of nature.
The population ruled by this nobility eventually rose up and used their own rituals against them, sealing away Dormin, this allowed the natural cycle of death/rebirth to return to how it used to be.
The forbidden lands was this civilisation's capital (the top of the tower of worship a throne of sorts) and the ruins in ICO the surrounding outskirts. This is why it was considered forbidden, and why those born with horns were sealed away within nearby ruins. Knowledge passed down over generations told descendands to do this to prevent the rise of a second nobility, as represented by ICO's antagonist, all caused by Dormin's unsealing in SOTC.
I don't believe that this means either side of Dormin is evil or good, simply a force of nature mirroring human personality traits due to wanting to experience mortal life, like water taking the shape of it's container. We also see this in the subtle conflict between masculine and feminine, with SOTC showing yang's wrath for vengeance just after being released quelled by yin, and conversely Yin being suppressed by Yang with the characters of ICO.
Dormin's unsealing allowed them to inhabit mortals as they used to, Harnessing the souls of mortals of which they have previously inhabited seen in both games, ICO in particular shows this desire escalate to Dormin's Yang actively try and take mortals directly, proving that the villagers superstitions to actually have practical merit.
To conclude, I agree with this video essays interpretation of a story of neutrality, with natural forces struggling with the ebb and flow to maintain balance. A masterwork of storytelling.
“You must see with eyes unclouded by hate. See the good in that which is evil, and the evil in that which is good. Pledge yourself to neither side, but vow instead to preserve the balance that exists between the two.”
I always thought this quote from Princess Mononoke perfectly represents the main themes of SotC
@ghostcharm PLEASE DO AN ICO VIDEO!! While I'm not always a big proponent of the sequel/prequel link, instead seeing one as a spiritual successor/analog of the other with morphed variations of one another in theming and emotional impact. Both ultimately play to the relationship dynamic between the given lead characters and their partners.
In ICO, Ico and Yorda are contained/trapped agents within the castle and through the lens of a child supporting a kindred spirit (person under the same circumstances) a very human connection is established, both visualized and experienced through the tactile handholding mechanic; you feel every tug and pull that happens to Yorda as you move about (impacting myself by intentionally choosing to walk more deliberately as to avoid literally dragging/pulling her around). Ultimately the relationship between these two children (how I have always viewed them) comes full circle both when Yorda supports Ico at the bridge and at the very end. Yorda is also given a sense of agency as she will occasionally reject your calls, diegetically contextualizing that some aspect of your approach to a puzzle or spatial position is incorrect/preventing progression.
In SoTC, Wander and Agro are a tried and tested relationship, in a sense even more so than the narrative weight Mono is afforded. Agro is Wander's partner, there to support you at any given moment and even allowing you to pull off amazing feats as you grow more comfortable with each other (in a sense another example of diegesis in showing mastery of Agro's horse riding mechanic). Near the end Agro also acts as a free agent choosing to save Wander at her own expense. And similar to Yorda, but contextualized in the behavior of a living animal, Agro won't 100% listen to your commands and often in many cases by her being spooked will deviate from the expect/intent path. While she may not have Yorda's tactile handholding mechanic, Agro's subtle behaviors and alterations of path work in an analogous way.
The light and dark elements/motifs are also variations of one another without, IMO, inherently being causally linked. Where in SoTC Dormin is a negative quantity in name/exposition only, while being a neutral at best entity in actual execution, ICO's Queen is herself (in my eyes) a prejudiced entity. While the Queen indeed locks up who is understood to be her daughter, if you actually read the direct japanese dialogue you can see the english translation fails in someways, painting her in a strictly "you are only a means to my ends" character. However in the japanese dialogue there is clear mentions of a more direct maternal understanding and sense exasperation that her actions towards Yorda are on some level for her benefit or at least consideration. This strictly western perspective has morphed the original perspectives and understanding of the actions of these two beings in a very stereotypical antagonistic force sense, with SoTC fairing slightly better if only because of the deliberately more impersonal conveyance of the story to the audience. We aren't the protagonist Wander informing his actions, we are strictly the means by which Wander's carrying out the actions that he has already intended to execute; we are just peering into a narrative that was already in motion.
The fact that both of these important characters are beings of dualities, while also to some degree being opposing male/female agents (yes Dormin has a dual voice, but if you asked most people they would probably focus on the male component more directly, especially in the context of the ending) speaks to them being analogues to degree without any direct or intending link, with the queen inherently being more direct about her intentions by the end of the story.
SOTC for me was always a story of revenge
The voice of Dormin is the voice inside of wanderer, he knows what it will cost to take revenge but he doesn't care
He kills in her memory, even though he knows that he can't really bring her back
Not all his victims were evil and in the end it didn't matter
After reaching his goal they come to imprison him for his crimes, to lock him away forever in the forbidden lands
Agro and mono innocent still exist in a "Garden of Eden" with an innocent version of wanderer, cursed with what came before
The horns being a "sins of the father" type symbol, for future generations
More of a metaphorical take on the subject, but this is what made the most sense to me growing up
If you ask me? The villains are Eamon and the ancestors.
Why I think this? Note the statues in the primary shrine... These are idols. Representatives of gods. I propose that Dormin was originally a singular deity and probably one along more neutral lines. Each of these locations that house these different colossi are actually home to different people groups, "tribes". As it is with most tribal history, some get along whilst others don't. Each one moving away from Dormin worship but realizing they would need the "life" of a god to fuel their own gods, their idols. This lead to a lot of infighting. It isn't really clear if Dormin willingly submitted to these demands for chunks of himself, but it seems to not be the case, as it doesn't seem fitting that he'd willingly want to be sealed this way. The landscape likely suffers from a lack of signs of life due to this; the multiple wars between these tribes as well as a great time passing.
Eamon or whomever the original elder was, I can imagine being like a Moses figure. Except it's instead leading the newly formed people *out* of a promised land of sorts, the various tribes losing their differences once united under this "elder paradigm" - I'd possibly guess at a new god or gods being taken up, thus making all of these colossi "old gods". And much like the jews, they've maintained this oral history (Eamon telling the tale over a fire) as a warning against what they perceive as evil, or their past misdeeds.
Dormin is still a god, even seperated. Maybe he could have brought Mono back to life from the beginning, but then gods often require sacrifices, an offer, for nothing is free. While he has it out for the colossi in this aspect, being what lead to his sundering, they're presented as tragic deaths because "mini gods" is what they are, really. They were still symbols of hope or faith for the various people groups within the region, sacred and good even now.
I also have a theory... Dormin's thing is bringing people back right? Notice how once Wander "dies," he's enveloped in the same black mist as the apparitions. I think each tribe had their own sacrifice, and being called on to bring them back, this is how they performed the ritual to seal him away. Thus why these apparitions exist; they're the souls of the sacrifices, though they're not quite aware; they seem to be in their own worlds, how strange and unfitting they seem to act beyond staring at Wander or joining with Dormin. Perhaps death didn't truly exist with Dormin being present, and the philosophy of this new "elder tribe" was to reintroduce and maintain it, thus seeing a deity who can ignore that as "evil".
Overall, I think SotC is moreso about trying to fight fate. Rather than a concrete fortune telling, I think the tribe saw Mono's "cursed fate" as just that, and sacrificed her (the word sacrifice invoking an idea that they do actually have a new god/gods). Thus why Wander isn't dissuaded from this path, I don't think it was a solid "she will release Dormin," cause even the tribe should know that killing her wouldn't have been the thing then. Eamon and the tribe are villains because they fought fate only to, in their beliefs and fear of their past, inadvertently bring them to fruition. Mono is now sealed forever, and despite being painted as evil, Dormin was true to their word. Not only brought back Mono but sustained Wander's life even through the sealing process.
The way you can tell a story is insane, thanks for making this one means a lot
Another thing about Dormin's name I like is how close it sounds to dormir, the spanish word for sleep
AMAZING VIDEO! It remembered me of my teenage days almost 20 years ago, visiting forums on the first years of social networks, learning about the deleted colossi and all the myths surrounding the game, like it hiding a 17th colossus, and the famous "Last Big Secret" that Fumito Ueda once spoke it existed somewhere in the game. I really, REALLY loved that video, keep it up dude!
I wonder if the humanoid shadows aren’t the shadows of the colossi, but of past people who used the spell to bring someone back from the dead. This spell in game is way too long winded and difficult for it to be known that you can bring someone back. It was orally passed down generations after all as per the opening. Perhaps bringing someone back had side effects, like how Wander is changed (reaching) or the queen in Ico.
I think that may the first ad for a product that actually caught my attention and made me want to buy the product
The speculative aspect of nearly everything in Shadow of the Colossus is amazing to me. That fact that we can sit here and come up with so many different theories and ideas about this game goes to show just how incredible and thought provoking ambiguous story telling is
I do hope that this opens the door for a hero or villanpedia on the game Ico!!!! Really love the work you're doing homie!!!!
One of the most important details lost in the remaster game was the dark tendrils that leave a slain colossus. They used to have a white outline around the shadowy tendrils. Further cementing your theory that Dormin is both light and shadow.
Mono being "sacrificed" and her "cursed fate" are so heavily debated because it really depends on the details that we are never given.
Sacrificed could mean something like a ritualistic killing, but it could also mean giving up something for the greater good. There's also the fact that we don't know who made the sacrifice, specifically if Mono had any say in this (a self-sacrifice as it were).
And also how objective is the term "cursed fate?" Fate implies something inevitable, but could also just mean death. And cursed implies something tragic or sad, but could actually be something quantifiably and tangibly negative such as a plague. We have no idea as to what degree on either of these terms. Was she fated to bring about a curse, or was the result of her fate going to bring her to a tragic place? And is fate just meaning an end to life, or does it mean some cosmic destiny deigned from on high?
Is Wander calling it cursed because from his perspective he dislikes it? Maybe she had to be sacrificed, or gave herself up to be sacrificed, and from his point of view her end (fate) was a tragedy (cursed). But maybe she was destined to bring about evil so she had to be sacrificed, or she had to stop something evil by being sacrificed.
My personal favorite idea is that somehow it was determined that she would be related to Dormin returning. So they sacrificed her in order to stop this, but this of course only sets up for Dormin to return. The classic "you can never stop fate" dilemma.
Hitting us with that profound ideology on humanity and the emotion of fear. Ok, 10/10.
what i understood is that Shadows of the Collossus is its a prequel to another game made by the same studio/producer that being the game ICO which tells us the story of a dark force in the form of a "queen" and of children born with "horns" who would then be brought to the queen and sacrificed or absorbed into the queen herself in order to feed this "darkness" which can take form of its own an act autonomously but at the end of the day answers the call of the Queen.
even though its not outright stated the fact that the collossi bear masks and that the priest we meet late also wears a mask demonstrates that this clan or tribe did something very bad and may have unleashed this being we know as "Dormin" they thinking it was a benevolant god offered up worship to it not knowing what they actually summoned was an evil that was preying on them and feeding off of them to sustain its existence an i think what it was feeding off of was their anguish, their fear, and their hate an to achieve that it demanded they sacrifice their loved ones.
well eventually some of them grew tired of Dormin and its demand of sacrifices an they plotted against it finding out that there was this ancient magic which can banish Darkness temporarily an sever Dormin's ties to the living realm so they sought out this power while Dormin was distracted and infused it into weapons using this they tore away at Dormin until it was widdled down into separate pieces those pieces then slithered away an attached themselves to living beings which grew into the collossi we then face and confront this lead to the mass exodus of the "forbidden lands" as the people fearing for their lives after incurring the wrath of Dormin fled but those who created this situation would not give up and devised another plan in order to halt these collossi's advance an prevent them from rejoining with their main body which was sealed within the very tower we start at, they must have figured out that the beasts could not be killed an would be revived by Dormin non stop in its attempt to become whole again so they created the statues and the "masks" with which to seal their powers an prevent them from reviving. but Dormin was not happy with them so it placed a curse on their bloodline which the girl "mono" was a descendant from and the tribe elders feared that her family were going to be the ones who revive Dormin an plague their lands with Darkness once more so in order to prevent that they killed any children coming of age from that family an when Wanderer had learned this he lost his mind and senses because he was in love with Mono an so he started looking more into this curse and what the elders were so afraid of eventually learning that its something known as a "Dormin" that resides in those forbidden lands' ruins and he steals the sacred tribe's blade used to cleanse the darkness in order to face Dormin and beg for its mercy.
now as this relates to ICO the clue is with the ending we get for Shadows of the Colossus, Dormin is sealed back inside the tower again after struggling to maintain its form it elects instead to plot anew after it failed to kill the masked tribes elder, so it kept its promise to Wanderer plucking Mono's soul from the afterlife an then placing itself within a newborn body which it had used from Wanderer's corpse. Mono would then become the sole ruler of the Forbidden Lands an her "child" born with horns would perform false miracles in effort for Dormin to eventually reclaim its hold on the living realm using these false miracles the land flourished and prospered under Mono's leadership and i assume the masked tribe was either exiled or they were executed for their defiance against her and or condemning her as some sort of Demon.
her later descendants ofc discover the true nature of the "horned" children/people an i suppose decide to use this for their benefit as we see in ICO an it inferred they wielded this power granted to them by Dormin to command the Shadows of Dormin an in order to maintain a status quo the Queen ordered that all horned people were to be brought to her palace immediately without fail or question as she would then absorb them unto herself to grow ever powerful which would also work for Dormin's benefit as the queen unknowingly was its host an the thing it latched on too but as with Wanderer the more she feeds the more corrupted her body would become from the strain it caused so she ushered an heir in order to carry on the plan/legacy but her plan was interrupted by the boy ICO who fought tooth and nail to survive an to escape the Queen's cruel plot an i can't imagine this made dormin too happy either that a descendant of the self same warrior betrays him now of all times lol
I understood Mono's cursed fate as the ironic fact that her death is the whole reason Wander commits so much blasphemy and Dormin is "released(?)" so Emon and the humans brought this on themselves
Also Wander's determination is so heartbreaking to me. During the final fight, after losing Agro, during that rain with blinding and deafening thunderstrikes... Wander still presses onward basically running through a bombardment of magic spellblasts from the last colossus... And it really sinks in the fact that he's just a desperate boy. If you get hit by a blast wander just ragdolls for a pretty great distance and passes out, losing a lot of time and progress. Also the way he only has eyes for mono, even while being attacked and yelled at by his old companions. When he gets back up it isnt some supernatural deed because we see him colapse anyway and only then Dormin gets released... The demon was his will all along, the same that drove him to kill all of those colossus even if they were innocent and the act was a crime
It’s likely that the reason Wander becomes a by is because as you said the dark was absorbed into Wander and the light into Mono so when the sword is thrown into to the pond to seal Dormin it was only part of him since he was split between 2 people and only Wander was being sealed he couldn’t be resulting in the power draining away and essentially resetting Wander and Dormin to their beginning as a child
The horse.
The horse is the villain.
Leading Wander to do all these evil things.
We all know horses are wise and magical creatures.
Surely the horse could sense Wander loosing his humanity piece by piece, but still brought him to these places to do it more.
He plotted all this from the beginning. It was all his idea from the start.
Y’know when I saw the hint in the colors it was, I was set on TP… but this not only subverted my expectations, but I can see exactly what you meant with the hint.
Congrats to your big bro! That’s so amazing. Really glad to see the brotherly love and pride
Wow, idk how you knew I needed this today, but I’m really glad you did. Thanks for everything you do
For me a big question is were the collusi created to seal Dormin or did they get turned into seals. I just feel it would be very tragic if Dormin created them and they got made into his own seals. It would explain why he knows their weaknesses and why he is not in a hurry to get unsealed. No real basis for this and hey sometimes in games you make stuff with small lorebits with no other thought.
I like to merge the theory of the collosi being transformed humans, as well as simply beings made of the architecture and buildings of the ancient civilization like they were made to be living and moving sarcophagus
A man entombed and controlling an enormous near indestructible being of flesh and stone. This is just a different flavour of 40k
Shadow of Astartes:
A kid shivs a dreadnought
Personally I’ve always read the relationship with Dormin and the humans both modern and ancient, as a being with blue and orange morality interacting with humanity’s black and white morality. The humans view Dormin as evil because they find its actions morally reprehensible, but to Dormin what it’s doing is not morally good or bad it’s just the way things are. They also wouldn’t consider Wander evil for wanting to resurrect someone and killing the colossi, who are innocent victims no matter what morality you ascribe to any other character, in order to do it.
I don’t feel that Dormin is acting deceptively and in fact it seemed like when they warned Wander about the cost that Wander cut them off from further dissuading him. The fact that Mono also does come to life in the end makes me think that to Dormin fulfilling a bargain is very important if the cost has been paid. Perhaps to Dormin, being sealed away was a kind of betrayal like, they fulfilled their end of a bargain but the ancient humans didn’t hold up theirs, and when confronted with Emon who agrees with the ancient humans they act vengeful against behavior they view as evil.
I also interpret Emon’s sacrifice of Mono as a tragic self fulfilling prophecy. Because of her death, sixteen innocent creatures are slaughtered, the god Emon feared was released, and the horned boys and shadow creatures seen in Ico are unleashed upon the world (though whether that part is good or bad is also up to interpretation). If she hadn’t been sacrificed, Wander would’ve never set out on his journey to bring her back and set all those events in motion. In trying to get rid of Mono to prevent her cursed fate Emon actually caused it to come true.
Ultimately the game is just a bunch of people with different view points unable to reconcile and understand each other.
I think the theory of “fear” checks everything on this game. Humans will kill anything that have the potential of being stronger than they are, so they defeated Dorman because they knew that “what if Dorman decide to use his power against us?”. For example, the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not really needed, Hitler was already losing the war to Russia and Japan was not strong enough to last in the war, but the fear of “what if” made 2 cities full of innocent citizens being deleted from the map. Humans have used fear as justification for many atrocities
This is what I think. The humans in Team Ico games are always portrayed as ignorant, afraid, and willing to commit crimes against humanity for nothing but baseless superstition.
Oh woah he actually did a video on Dormin.
I remember asking for one on Dormin a while back, but I didn’t actually expect to get a video on Dormin.
I watch Skyrionn and Ghostcharm back to back. Similar yet so different too. Both are so good at telling game lore.
I always connected "Dormin" to the latin for "to sleep" -- "dormire". Thought that it means "the one who rules over sleep", but might also mean "the one who sleeps". I guess it's a surface-level interpretation though
This might be a bit out there, but I have a theory. Dormin outright calls itself we and we see the pieces of Dormin running as people to rejoin. We also see Wander looking the same as these pieces after removing the sword. I wonder if Dormin is a collective of souls of others who have made deals for making the impossible possible and the yin yang aspect is just a result of being a mix of all types of people.
We have Bugs Bunny to thank for our view of the name Nimrod. In one of his cartoons, he disparages Elmer Fudd by calling him Nimrod, after the mythological hunter. But audiences didn't get the reference, and so "nimrod" became synonymous with "idiot" in modern language.
Dormin was always an interesting being. A classic character painted as a villain by those who also push their own agenda, with us in the middle, never knowing the true past of him; perfect character to ponder, keep up the great work, man!
P.S. To throw a suggestion for your next villain centerpiece, one with great potential and backstory- Seymour Guado 🤘🏻😛
I would like to point out that Dormin said that they BORROWED the Wander's body, implying they intended to return Wander's body after settling the score with Emon. This leads me to believe that Dormin very well could have intended to simply honor their end of the pact had Emon and Co. not interfered.
It's been my opinion that Shadow of the Colossus was largely a tale of interpretation. The gamer of course trying to figure things out but also each character's interpretation of fate in particular.
Mono's cursed fate could have certainly been interpreted as the resurrection of Dormin to whoever knew such information. The solution they settled on regardless was sacrifice.
Wander curses her fate and even seek a way to subvert her death, a permanent end to a person's fate. Wander interpreted the situation as wrong and sought to fix things at any cost and no time to think of consequences to himself or the world.
Dormin sees an opportunity in Wander possible only after the sword is revealed. Dormin also had no spoken intent aside from the idol's destruction. We as the players of the game can only interpret Dormin's goals once Wander succeeds.
Emon worst of all interprets everything on the fly. Emon assumes right away that Wander was tricked even though the deal was clearly not malicious. Emon might have also been the biggest contributor to Dormin's final form. Emon immediately interprets the best solution at a tense moment was to kill Wander, which unleashed Dormin in full. In the final confrontation its almost comical how quickly he is able to fix everything by using the sword! Wander was disarmed and weak, yet they waited for things to get from bad to worse before using the get out of jail free card. Emon may seem villainous but clearly was trying to follow what his culture taught, his approach was "by the book".
All that wall of text to say my interpretation of a villain in this game is fate. Emon's cultures views on fate, the will to defy fate, the power to subvert fate, and the cruelty of inevitable fate.
Mono died to end a cursed fate, Wander sought to subvert her fate, Emon attempted to keep the fate of the world as it was, and Dormin worst of all sought to subvert it's own fate only to immediately end up right back where it started. Fate in essence won at the end of the game. Regardless of any characters actions, Mono's cursed fate seem to have come true and something new was created. The child is a clean slate, an unknown fate. Emon said no human would ever set foot on the sealed lands, wouldn't the child mean otherwise? Is fate being interpreted after a conclusion? Things aren't clear but fate was the start of Wander's and our journey through the sealed lands. Did we ever have a chance to change anything? Were we all just playing a part or were we always making our own way? Best not to look into things as... eh... set in stone, even the smallest thing could change everything... right? 😜
Perhaps a video covering the flawed protagonist in NieR:Replicant? (Brother Nier was the original intention instead of Father Nier - but wouldn't be opposed to both versions being included)
Your best video to this day Ghost, absolutely wonderful, compared to others I don't have much to discuss about the theory I find it interesting but I've been really far from SOTC in the last year's so it's not like I remember much, regardless the video was enjoyable and I'm so glad you choose SOTC, it's a beautiful game filled with mystery that to this day keeps capturing people into its beauty, the unique game I can genuinely call a masterpiece.
Im 15 minutes in making this comment, and perhaps you covered this. My interpretation of dormin, in keeping with the theme of light and dark, is this. Dormin is not merely a spirit, but is infact a god. When I say God I don't mean in the monotheistic sense, I mean more so in a polytheistic sense, as in a god of a specific domain. Like Hades being the god of the underworld, where as Zeus in the king of Olympus. Dormin having both male and female voices, I think symbolize light in dark in a human sense, the dark aspect being male, and the light aspect being female. We see this reflected in wanderer and mono by the games end. Also in Greek mythology and other pantheons, the gods inhabit temples, and statues, hence the idols. I think fragments of dormins whole entity are sealed away inside the idols, and come together to form one single god, that controls beings of light, and dark. As in the living, and the dead, and in the end you do see some Christian symbology, as there is an imaculate conception of sorts and I believe the babay in the end, is the living incarnation of dormin..but this is where my concept isn't as complete.
Okay, just finished the whole video, you pretty much have the exact same theroy as me.
12:34 I think another cool part of the interaction is the white cloak or blanket that originally covers mono, it flies away when dormin is speaking, as if it is foreshadowing the evilness of the entity
I’m so fxcking pissed my ps3 won’t let me play any of my downloads including this wonderful masterpiece. Now I’ll have to reget all my games on ebay probably. 😢
But I have loved this game since I was around 8.
And it’s the only video game I’ve beaten like 10 times.
And I did have a crush on Dormin, and probably still do. And considering I grew up to be a Wizard 5 years into my craft 1 year into being open ‘out of the broom closet’ with my witchcraft, feel like that crush makes sense. Considering I ended up as one of Samiel’s Wizards.. Samiel is a lot like Dormin. Ancient beautiful wonderful horror kind of God.
😅❤
So shadow of the colossus is a prequel to ICO? I always liked this game. My brother always wanted to play it because of its unusual plot and the grand large scale nature of the colossi battles. I played it in highschool at my best friend and i never saw the end but i played a couple hours worth and it was cool as hell. Games like these are the ones that people remember because they are works of art.
dude i have been following u since the u started an this might be ur best one yet. trough out the years u keep becoming better and better. way to go mate. thanks for the time and effort u put in each one of these. RESPECT
I always saw Dormin as the antagonist but he's evil in so far as tornados are "natural evil" and wander was blinded by his love of the girl. I'd say this story is basically like a young man is trying to save the one girl he loves and thus he's willing to walk into the eye of the storm while he gets what he wants he's sucked into the vortex. Literally.
I was having a crap Sunday, my meds ran out, then i go check the tubes and BAM! New GC video
Should make a Villainpedia on Eredin. From the witcher.
The wild hunt does have some good lore.
This was great. I’d love to see Ico stuff. Good to see your brother’s doing well.
Thank you man for making your videos the way you do. There's so much negativity in the gaming industry but you bring back the wonder in gaming. Thank you for being a positive force.
2:37 Oof. Yeah now I remember what I didn’t like about your analysis, last time it was recommended. There is good and evil. It isn’t just a matter of perspective. There are some things people might call evil, that are able to be broken down into fractionations of either. And perspective is necessary to understand any of it. Anyway you cut it. Doesn’t mean it’s merely a matter of perspective though. Only means if you ignore what’s evil about evil, or good about good, then mix in a bit of both into every character, you have humanity at large, and anything fleshy or corruptible. Get your Yin Yang. There are portions past that though. Which exclude the other. The fact that one may be found in another does not make something entirely composed of one or the other. Likewise a story about one is rarely compelling without the other. They contrast.
People who can’t tell the difference between good and evil, generally think what is true, is falsifiable. And all truth is falsifiable. Ironically making sure that everything one thinks is true about what is internal is entirely subjective and constructed.
Your brother is awesome
this is amazing my man, watched this through an insomnia trip and am really feeling a lot of comfort in wee hours of the night through the story and the sound of your voice. Great work as always. also ur bro's project looks fire, hope it is turning out well!
Now knowing that dormin was supposed to be named nimrod I feel like I have a much larger grasp on the games story, themes, and many more theories.
What if the forbidden land is forbidden because it's a cycled land that buries itself in dirt and general topography changes humans settle in said land and lo and behold start building wonders exploring great ideas and inevitably the more destructive and cruel ideas. Ultimately I think the colossi are similar to the golem thingies from atlantis: the lost empire but more ornate in construction but when a piece of dormin was housed within they took on a reflection of the ritual practitioner embodying progressively how inhumane the practitioner was becoming or things lost like freedom etc.
GHOSTCHARM, my beautiful beautiful boy, my friend, as a Shaman i must tell you that shaman know and are wise about things that are far far beyond the simple. even when the tecnologoy and the folk around us were very simple, We have always been like seconds upon a clock within a clock within many clocks... always moving torwards a pinnacle that we have always understood to some degree, though not enough to truly explain it.
dont discount that in your thoughts about Wander's vilage.
remember also
not all whom Wander are lost.
I like the idea that Wander was the 17th colossi. Dormin didn't really emerge until Wander was stabbed by the sword.
So for me. Dormin feels less of a god and more of a collection of souls. See I believe the spirits who gather around wander at the end of the game is Dormin. Dormin perhaps original used to be people who had been sacrificed similar to mono but then they're souls came together to create Dormin. Now the ancient civilization perhaps thought dormin sought revenge against them and shattered dormin out of fear only to come to the understanding no. Dormin just wanted to be left alone.
So out of repentance they created golems to protect the shattered shards of dormin. The collosi wander kills.
Now whats the price wander had to pay to bring mono back. Well, consiser alchemy for a moment equivalent exchange Dorman seems to sort of respect wander and the entire game is filled with melencholy. So perhaps the price was wanders life after all to bring back a life one most likely had to be taken. Wander was marching to his death willingly
Lets go Ghostcharm! Always a treat to see your videos!