Look at the tape on their swords and other edged weapons. They have vertical strips of contrasting tape to designate the edge vs the flat of the blade. It is also up to the person being hit to be honorable about what hits they take. The marshals are there to encourage honor and chivalry and mediate contested hits. The SCA values honor and chivalry especially since they have a title system that is based on merit, honor, and of course marshal ability.
My experience with the SCA is they prioritize inclusiveness over historical accuracy. Most members, at least in the European branches, understand that SCA combat is medieval-esque and not a true recreation. That being said, many members take great pride in the accuracy of their non-combat activities.
I tried SCA heavy and wasn't into it. Then I tried their rapier fencing and found it much more to my liking. Real steel swords, actual technique, and the shortcomings as far as accuracy are fixed in the third form of combat which is taking ground but still has a long way to come: cut and thrust. Cut and thrust is like rapier but with more flexibility as far as percussive blows and what swords are acceptable to use. Longswords, arming swords, and things like that are common, as are earlier, more blade heavy rapiers. The assumption in this sport is that there is no armor, and when you get hit, you lose what is hit, so long as it's hit with point or edge. Heavy is still fun, but it isn't real fighting. Rapier and cut and thrust are much closer and warrant at least one more visit with the SCA.
hell yes after 3 years of being hit by 400 plus pound guys in the head I cant even remember my name , so to keep what I have left I now do rapier and I am planning on cut and thrust .
I have been a participant of the SCA for just short of 45 years. I have been both "hard suite" and "light weapons" fighter. I am the first to admit (while many wouldn't) that armored combat is not nor ever has been or ever was historically accurate. It is closer to "BRAVEHEART" than anything else. We don't do actual battle recreations since , for one thing we don't have anybody really portray any historical participants. In other words, no William Wallace for Sterling Bridge or William the Bastard for Hastings. Like so much we made it up as we went along. The light weapons ie rapier is much the same more Errol Flynn in Captain Blood than Oliver Cromwell at Marsten Moor. In the beginning over 50 years ago we weren't sure if we would be historical or fantastical. To be Lord of the Rings or the Doomday book. So we created traditions that used a little of both.
The problem with not being specific on what you are trying to do is that the rule set will not reflect a logical purpose. Many things are said to be restrictions for safety while at the same time other things are allowed that are even less safe than what is being banned. The rule set is bogus and simply intended to give advantage to those who fight with sword and shield. In other words rules are falsely claimed to be for safety when in fact there is a hidden agenda to favorites one type of fighter over another.
@@noloferratus What ruleset favours sword and shield? Physics? Geometry? Those are kinda important rules. My shire gave longsword/two handed sword the option of a 'lethal' pommel spike so they'd have a hope against any one that closed inside their range by binding their sword high. Which is the easiest way to kill them with sword and shield.
Ok, I get a lot of your points on SCA heavy fighting, I gave it up last year myself to focus more on HEMA and what the SCA calls Cut & Thrust (which you'd probably like) and I echo most of them, especially the real steal argument. That being said, I don't thing you had a very good exposure to what SCA heavy fighting is. 1: that...thing you wanted to create a two-handed sword out of It is odd, and I'm not sure how to address it, and I have no idea what you were thinking with it. But SCA rattan sword-sticks (because, really that's what they are, no getting around that) are not padded with foam. The have reinforcing wrap and contrasting tape to indicate the edge and the flat, and some use a relatively soft thrusting tip. Flat shots are not called; I'll submit it simply takes experience to know when you hit someone on the flat, and no one of honor would take that point. 2: In the real world, helmets need to cover the head for safety reasons, and an individual's choice of armor covers literally the breadth of human history from SCA minimum to full plate harness. However, in the rules of the list, everyone is understood to be wearing a metal skull cap leaving the sides of the head open, a chain hauberk and padded gambeson, basically Norman gear c11th century. Any hit to the head or face is "lethal", and regardless of actual protection an individual is wearing, any shot that would have killed or incapacitated through maile is a telling blow. The important thing after all, is safety of the participants. 3: Martial principals. I'm not sure about most of the other kingdoms, or even other baronies near me, but in my particular group, I know some incredible swordsmen, even if all they use are sticks. 4: Other groups tend to focus on a later period, while SCA tends to focus on 10th-14th century, or even earlier and have a fairly hard limit of focus on 1550. HEMA, BotN, ACL, they all tend to start from at least 15th century on up. I think it's a little funny, but they all seem to start where SCA ends.
Most of your corrections are correct however HEMA is not a more realistic combat training. I'm sorry but what I saw them do was almost touch combat compared to SCA combat. None of them even seemed to make full blows. I would have loved to spar with those HEMA people but they would not allow me to prove anything to them.
Haha I read the title of this video and all I heard was a dalek screaming, "Does not compute! Does not compute! Non sequitur statement!". I think I've been in the SCA for too long. :D Their motto is, "Recreating the middle ages as they should have been.". The SCA is the arcade version of a medieval simulator. They are considered to be wearing a gambeson, maille hauberk and open faced helm with a nasal regardless of what they are actually wearing while playing. And no, flat of the blade is not considered a killing blow. Edge orientation does matter. There are plenty of people who strive for more historical accuracy. They are called the 'period police' and are as popular as herpes. The SCA is a game, dude. A game. It is for fun. It isn't pretentious like HEMA in thinking it's actually recreating something from the past, which neither the SCA nor HEMA are. One last thing; I am not sure where you got the insane notion that a touch to the helmet is a killing blow, but that couldn't be farther from the truth. I think you need to go out and get some more experience with the game before making anymore embarrassing false statements about it. Have no illusions, it's full contact. I'm a 20 year vet of the SCA, so you can trust my word.
Exactly. 20+ year vet as well. Initially cut my teeth in the McArthur Parking lot, in Kingdom of the Mist's, and now cutting other peoples teeth in Sternfeld. People who know nothing about the organization always attack it for its combat and fail to see the Castle behind the regiment. Insisting that the fighters are the only thing the SCA has to offer. Kills me.
as a SCA member i'd have to say that Yes it is a bit of a game if not more of a sport and every kingdom does do the heavy fighting a lil' different. as for accuracy in our group its not ment to be 100 percent to a tee accurate after all it is the Society for Creative Anachronisms ^_^ (mind you i am a jeweler, bard and crossbowman in my part of the group, my brothers are heavies)
also with our Rattan swords he do a layer of fiber tape to hold the bamboo together better as well as Duct tape that defines the edge and sides with colour, Some of our heavies actually shave grooves into the staves to stand in and let the user feel where the edge is
You have some serious misconceptions about SCA heavy combat. The rattan is not wrapped in foam, edge alignment is indicated with tape and matters, a mere touch with any side of the stick is not counted as a telling blow. The armor as worn is not the notional armor which is a nasal helm with a mail drape and a mail haubergeon over a gambeson. Nobody in the SCA thinks that heavy combat is a historically accurate representation of medieval warfare. However, you still learn a bunch of great martial skills through heavy combat like body mechanics, measure, timing, and so on. Your rant doesn't really track with reality. There is also a lot of crossover between the SCA and HEMA and both groups have benefited as a result.
I appreciate the critique, but it isn't without its faults. Largely you criticized the fighting not for what it is, but for what *you* think it should be. The goal of the fighting is not to accurately represent true historical fighting. As you had said yourself, the only way to really achieve that is through actual reenactment fighting. I can assure you, it would exist if there was a demand for participation among the members, but as you can probably guess, there isn't. Like you said, a large part of the draw to the organization is the fighting, under its current incarnation, which is quite frankly the sole reason why I participate. Its an effective way to play a fun sport while dressing up in armor and following some medieval themed rules. It is what it is and it wouldn't be "better" if you took all of the elements away that make it popular, and replaced it with something more historical. Having said that, a few things you got wrong: The swords do have edges. You can't just tap someone on the head for a kill. Despite the appearance of the armor on the field, the rules define the armor to be less than what you often see (chain, not plate), meaning that the killing blows don't have to be as hard as you would think. The recreation aspect is actually intended to recreate tournaments, not large battles. The large battles are thrown in because they are a fun addition. The SCA is a big tent organization, which is why it has so many members. The A stands for anachronism for a reason. The goal is generally to be as inclusive as possible while encouraging a push toward historical accuracy, but is not required.
You have a lot of good points but you don't understand power. No one in HEMA swings as hard as SCA folks or BOTN folks. If SCA fighters used steel for heavy fighting with no other changes in the armor people wear now, then people would literally die. I did SCA fighting at a high level for 25 years and I could give you a long list of injuries from rattan. What the average HEMA person considers and "injury" is just a normal level of pain from typical practice. HMB/BOTN/IMCF/WMFC/ACL fighting is also full power and does use steel but the level of armor and barrier to entry is MUCH higher. Starting next year sabotons will be mandatory because the number of toe amputations was deemed too high. People lose eyes, get broken bones, and injuries on the level of NFL players. I myself had my hip split open to the bone a few months ago THOUGH ARMOR at an HMB 5v5. HEMA is awesome, but HEMA people's constant need to declare there own moral superiority is kind of obscene. Some people like tennis, some people like raquetball...they don't tell each other the other game is inferior.
Your correct in that the HEME people just have a touch combat mentality. I checked into them after I quit the SCA and decided it would be a waste of time.
HEMA is based in unarmored dueling. If you feel pain from a properly edge aligned strike, you're going to be incapacitated in all likelihood. You don't have to swing hard enough to break a house down to injure someone with a sword quite significantly... that's the whole point of a sword lol. It's not a mace. Swords weren't used against armor in the way that they are in SCA anyways, so the amount of force isn't even really relevant.
One other thing, the sword has to be marked with red tape where the killing edge is. That's what we do in Middle Kingdom. You're right in that they don't try to recreate the effectiveness of armor. They end up giving good bashes and calling it a kill or disable.
i love it in 10:55 one of the guys puts his shield up against the guy he is fighting effectively opening himself up and blocking his own blows at the same time :P.
with sca to a extent historical acuricy is vary important using steel blunts really would actually limit who can and can't fight because not very one can afford heavy steel armor using rattan is better becaus it allows more to participate with simulator armor made of aluminum or heavy plastic rattan could also be shaped to have a edg and flat and sca you can use hema in a fight minus grappling but I will agree that with safety beaing a concern limits who realistic a mass battle can be and I think a nother thing that gets the historically acurate people up set you can see a anciant roman fighting a germanic 15th century knight and I personally consider the sca to be historical fiction than full on historically accurate thank you for making the video
when I was with the SCA, the 'blades" were delineated edgewise with red tape, and a "piercing" tip the tip was wrapped in red tape, to make valid kills. There was a difference between the tournament combat and real combat, but the individual would take the tome to research so he would know the difference. That's what i loved about the SCA. It was the research, and the knowledge gained which to me was the real purpose behind the SCA. I was involved mostly in fencing, archery, and with the Musician's Guild. The SCA will always have a tender spot with being held near and dear and for the love of history it engendered.
Sca would work, I'd only win by blunted thrust points. Leave bashing out of it, unless using warhammer or polearms with spikes. Other than that, the bashing looks idiotic.
I also left the SCA because I felt the combat was not realistic enough but the combat training in the HEMA group I check into in my opinion was no more realistic than that of the SCA. The HEMA people were clearly counting blows that were too light to do anything in their tournaments and also incorrectly telling people that the wrap shot used in SCA combat was of no practical value. I was quite unimpressed with their training overall. I actually used an SCA Wrap type of blow in a real fight which saved my life so I know for fact that they were mistaken. In the first place the historical documents do not even show the full range of the blows or how the swords were supposed to be gripped. Imagine someone trying to teach golf to someone who can not even explain how to grip the golf club and that is HEMA. And by the way they would not let me participate in their tournament because they were afraid I would win. I should also say that I once knocked out an opponent with a SCA rattan sword even though he was wearing a standard SCA helm. In truth their is no way to know what effect a sword blow into plate armor would do to an opponent. The sword weapon you created for SCA fighting would not even be allowed in an SCA event because it does not have clearly marked edges so your have no point there whatsoever and are simply mistaken in the rule set they use. when someone hits an opponent with the flat of their rattan weapon in SCA combat they are supposed to tell them not to count the blow and I saw this happen many times. My gripe with SCA combat was mainly in the way they were making up rules as they went by over stretching the definition of what was grappling. The SCA does not have any logically stated purpose and their use of the word "recreate" is misleading. To recreate means to make anew in the imagination. It does not mean make anew in the physical.
Your last bit is not how language works. There is no sense in defining 'recreate' as only being possible in the imagination other than to make a bitter point in reference to your own opinion. Context is important and is perhaps the MOST important thing to consider, as well as nuance, for all of your thoughts written above.
I do have to point out some things that you didn't seem to know. For one, the swords have an edge and flat indicated by duct tape, and some swords even have a more oval shape to indicate it. Also for most places, everyone is said to be wearing a chainmail Hauberk with a Norman conical helm, so if you get a full force hit on somebody's rib, in a real fight that rib would likely be broken and the victim would be at a possibly severe disadvantage in that fight and would probably end up losing. I'm not denying that the SCA combat it kinda like a sport, I'm just letting you know that it goes further than what you mentioned
That's kind of what I never understood, why not use the more realistic larp swords? I never did really get an answer from some of their members. We had an SCA group come do some "battles" at a Faire here. What I found amusing is that they actually have Knightly rankings by regions/States. Cool concept, but boy oh boy do some of these "Knights" have a pompus attitude. They actually believe they are knights lol
SCA combat it is not a representation of real combat, it is a representation of tournament combat. It is nigh impossible to make a combat system that mimics real combat without it hurting someone or being dangerous or being full of cheats. The SCA rules state that no matter what Armour you are wearing there is an imaginary Armour that everyone is considered to have, that determines the level of protection. The rules state that everyone is wearing a padded gambeson, with a mail hauberk, boiled leather arm and leg protection, and the helmet is a conical helm with a nasal, and mail hanging from said helmet. While that may not be accurate either it makes a bit more sense. If you get hit in the torso wearing a gambeson and hauberk you may break a rib, or be injured in any other way. same with the face, any force to the direct front of the face is a kill, and to the side as well because you wouldn't have much protection according to the imaginary Armour everyone is considered to have. With what is being said About Rattan As the sword, many people shave the sides down so actually be flat, and when you swing the sword and hit you can feel when it is flat or good,. Heavy combat is very much an honor system, let the slain man say he is slain. if someone says no that wasn't good, wasn't hard enough, then okay you hit them harder because that is what they are asking you to do essentially.
I think to get so caught up in the accuracy part would to some people be too regimented and academic, this would actually take some of the fun away, like having a buz kill in a group. imho. btw. You have an awesome collection.
I think you speak to things you know very little about. You quite literally stated many things as fact that are half truths at best to being just flat out wrong. No one that has done SCA heavy for any time would make a claim to it being historical. The art and sciences are the closest fit but even with that the research tend to be the important aspect not the actual products from the research. Many of the things that permeate the SCA is its own culture vaguely based something between 600 and 1700 AD. The chivalry based off romantic writings of Geoffrey of Monmouth and his ilk. It is to bad you closed your mind to the game it can be quite fun. And After 30 years of fighting in the SCA I know better than most its warts and pimples but you appear to be jumping to conclusions right off the cliff.
He reminds me of every guy that tried to be a Heavy and just got constantly smashed and ran off to HEMA's dancy touch point system under the excuse of 'muh historical accuracies'. And I like how he can claim that HEMA is safe with blunt steel swords against fencing masks... Like dude, it's not a HEMA "touch" for a kill. You need a clean, hard blow. If I hit HEMA guys in their fencing masks with a blunt steel sword, hell even an SCA rattan club-sword, as hard as my typical 'kill' used to be in the SCA, I'd be hospitalizing people. I'd also be rhino-hiding pretty much every HEMA 'hit' I've ever seen. My marshall wouldn't have counted any of them. This vid is a butthurt guy who couldn't hack it as a Heavy.
@@dimman77 dude they’re using techniques meant for unarmored dueling, let them halfsword where they bash your head with the pommels and quillions of the longsword and use the grappling techniques meant for armoured opponents, you’d be dead. That large steel orb at the base of the long swords hilt isn’t just a counter weight lmao.
@@GameSteph Their techniques don't train for medieval war-fighting in any degree of realism. They don't hit hard enough, and don't get hit hard enough. Armour changes things. A pommel is a meme, not a weapon. Same with the 'murder stroke' of trying to use the cross guard as an axe, that's what axes and warhammers were for, not sword quillions. Useless against even a Norman knight's or Viking's mail and helm, let alone coat of plates or bringandine and great helm or salet. They sucked at heavy fighting and turned into historical dancing touch-point fencers with the same offensive delusions as goofy kung fu 'death touch' practitioners.
@@dimman77 lmao there’s armoured HEMA fighting in Germany called harnishfecten, they use blunted pole axes and you can tell they’re swinging lightly and holding back, they’d rather get the technique down, but invite one of them to SCA and say “swing as hard as you want” guarantee you they’d knock out every sca fighter through armour. ruclips.net/video/EpuqJHxeaTY/видео.html
@@GameSteph Exception to prove the rule. HEMA these days is dominated by a bunch of dancy longsword point touchers that ran away from getting smashed by SCA heavies and now aren't much different than prancing Olympic fencing. Sure maybe 1% of harness fighters in HEMA might be decent, but the rest are laughable longsword LARPers who treat their feders as if they were lightsabers. LoL 🤣
I an an avid SCA member and I want to preface this with a very short phrase. "I agree with you." However, that has a caveat. The SCA has three forms of combat (technically there are more, but these are the three with 'peerage orders'); chivalric (heavy), rapier (light), and cut and thrust (C&T). Chivalric falls under the order of chivalry (duh) and are thus proclaimed 'knights', whereas rapier and C&T fall under the order of Defense and are proclaimed 'masters of defense'. Now then, it is widespread within the SCA that the order of chivalry is actually not historically accurate, primarily with the surge of interest in HEMA. The SCA has been slowly developing its answer to HEMA in its development of the cut and thrust community (which is growing quite quickly), but that's not where it started. It started with rapier. I'm not going to go into a lot of history about it, but I will at least state that what we, the SCA rapier community, do is much more historically accurate. It'd be cool if you could make a video referencing that so we can at least have some limelight shined on us, because a lot of our community is still shunned for our combat.
Way back way back when the SCA got it started , they used the Fighters Hand Book and went to the garage made their own gear. Bet there is no More Carpet Monsters to fight. Some ideas worked better than others. Information took months not seconds to discover. The safety rules was Prevent death or bad injury but when hit each other it hurt and enjoy cold beer with each other later. It was long before heavy weapon armor fights. I dont to think the public would accept it back then or insurance company People that knew what I did say normal people don't enjoy beating people with clubs. That caused it to be a kinda of a closed off group .It's a great place to have fun , stay in shape move into heavy fighting later. I hope this helps to understand how it was.
I had an issue with the fighters ignoring the concept of armor protection too when I first looked into the SCA. It just felt like a more expensive version of Amtgard, which I was and am currently in (I never expected Amtgard to be historically accurate, because they've never claimed to be). However, my interest returned when I heard that my local group had began introducing rapier combat in their group. For the rapier fighters, things feel a lot more like HEMA. They fight with metal weapons and they don't wear mandatory armor aside from a fencing mask, gorget, padded gloves and a cup. You can wear more protection if you wish, but most rapier fighters only wear modern protection that they hide underneath their garb.
I like your video and agree with many of your points, particularly regarding inaccuracy in historical combat. But in a way, I have a different perspective. I got started in SCA, but in the "rapier" side. At the time I wanted to get into saber and broadsword fencing, and in my area, there wasn't any group doing it at the time, so I joined SCA rapier fencing Right away I noticed that they had a lot of rules regarding fencing and the gear to be used. For example, you can't do percussive cuts in rapier, unless you have the gear for 'cut and thrust' despite rapiers being able to cut percussively IRL. It also felt like a game of 'tag' but with swords. The SCA, even for Raper, really doesn't understand martial principles or how swords actually work. They did invite me at the time to do heavy fighting but something felt off about it, particularly the issue with edge alignment using rattan sticks. I also found the marshalls a little too authoritarian. Eventually, I moved on to a HEMA group that just recently opened up that does broadsword, saber, single stick, sidesword, and rapier and am much happier there, both in fencing and also in the community. That said, I still sometimes return to some SCA events because some of the people in our fencing HEMA group did get their start there and, I guess, hold some rank w/in the organization so we sometimes go there with them. But seeing some of the issues, with the fencing, and the community in SCA I'd rather avoid fencing in SCA events altogether if possible.
I think some of your argument is off base. Most heavy fighters do flatten the sides of their rattan. I would agree that your $500/up Albion would be more realistic, but at $15-20 for rattan it's definitely more available to someone with a strong interest. I know of some groups review rawlings wasters for SCA use. Also ACL/Battle of Nations have a much higher standard for armoring due to what's allowed for fighting. It's hard to say what was historically accurate. Yes the manuals give us a clue to how some swordsman trained, but not everyone had that sorta training. Also I've never heard anyone in three of the kingdoms I've fought in, refer to it as historically accurate. I think we are all aware that we are fighting with rattan sticks and not killing anyone. I've also never seen a HEMA practicioner or an ACL fighter try to wedge the point of his sword thru an opponents lame to kill. I think you if you take it for what it is you'll enjoy yourself. It all boils down to the same thing, we all love martial weapons and armor, so whether it be SCA, HEMA, ACL, LARP, or some pool noodles in the backyard I think we can appreciate the fun of all it. Besides why do just one, I've been the SCA for a few years, but if I ever live anywhere near a HEMA club I'll be there in a heart beat.
500$? Try 1000 lol. Albion or any company made in america are way overpriced. I'd rather have 4 mediocre windlass swords or 2 good del tin swords than 1 great albion sword.
Agreed, no one would have a grievance with the SCA if it wasn't for the statement of being historically accurate, perhaps most things other then their combat is accurate but I think they should address this or change the game. I have been apart of SCA groups before and I must say the night times can be one hell of a good party (if you cant get laid in the SCA then you cant get laid anyway) or something like that. At the end of the day the SCA is just a sports club, all be it a really neat one but a sports club none the less but even HEMA competition's (way more historically accurate while recreating real martial arts) is a sport as well. Bad ass hobby's all around.
Cant say to what groups youve been visiting but in new york the general feel is "an attempt at historical accuracy" as well as the "10 foot rule" (if it looks accurate from 10 feet away its acceptable) theres really no claim at perfect accuracy (unless someone has the documentation to prove it).
Absolutely have to disagree with you. In your own video the blades that people are using are wrapped in one color with the edge lined in a contrasting color. People know about edge alignment in the SCA a blade with no contrasting line is only used as a thrusting blade. Blades with padded tips and contrasting colors are allowed all striking points. So to say they are just beating each other hilly nilly is not giving all the information available. Perhaps if you had given a few more years into it you would have seen slightly deeper.
+kuribo1 Knowing about edge alignment, vs having pactice with it, is not the same. A round stick with a "marked line" on it will never feel like a flat sword. Even foam swords gives you some form of feedback whether or not your edge alignment was correct or not. Again, a rounded stick, does not. If theoretical knowledge translated directly to practical experiences, there'd be no reason for people to practice HEMA, Kenjitsui etc. Because then everybody could read a fighting manual, pick up a sword and be an expert on that giving style of fighting.
I am going to add to this and say that most scadians are fully aware of the inconsistencies between our armour and the damage that just hitting someone would do. and a telling blow would have to be much more than just "bopping" someone with the rattan on any side, but me being a scadian will also say that our rattan weapons are nothing like a real sword and our combat absolutely represents nothing realistic, yet i have not heard of a better alternative for getting the rush of a massively large melee experience that really allows for a full contact aggressive experience
You do know that many of the early drivers of HEMA were in the SCA, right? Also, SCA combat is more like a behourd than war or actual combat. www.aemma.org/misc/events/wmaw_2002/tourn_behourd.html
It is true that the sca does not emulate truly historically accurate martial skills. A person donned in field plate is equivalent to one in minimally approved armour in terms of protection in order to normalize everyone in every time period represented. Lets face it - a 12th century soldier would not normally pair up against a roman centurion. It is a game in effect but having played in the sca for over 25 years i can say that the tactics used on the field are commonly standard for melee. One on one combat really relies on knowing hie to outwit your opponent and his weaknesses within the rules of the game. Strength and endurance play a big part but it depends in what you are looking for. For me it was to personify a particular time period regardless of overall success in prowess. Others in the group may have a different objective. Unfortunately "success" and thus recognition in the group is dependent on how well you play in the game not on how accurate you are which is what finally turned me off on the society - thugs who blow off shots were more apt to be "promoted" vice those who did not play that way.
It's the Society of Creative Anachronism. It's not really meant to be accurate. At least from my point of view and many others. Some groups try to be historically accurate in their look, but the fighting behaves like they are unarmored.
I've been practicing in HEMA for a bit, and looking to eventually move toward more accurate armored combat. The SCA looks pretty fun, but I'm looking for a more historical and martial perspective. Where could a guy find something like armored HEMA?
"Edge" Actually.... your video that you filmed of the event does in fact show the difference between a "Flat" vs "Edge" in the armed weapons. But its clear to me, you didn't spend enough time researching the SCA and completely understanding it, to all its depths because it didn't fit your "Idea" of what Mid-evil armed combat should be. In the very video you filmed at and SCA event, if you will watch it carefully; some weapons have a line down one or boths sides. These signify on the "Boffer" style swords of the SCA the "Edge" that your seeking. Now... here is the other problem; For the purpose of Safety and to ensure that the fighters in question do not actually die, as lets face it, having a Mid-evil themed organization of any type, be it LARP, or Reenactment, choreographed live steal fights, or anything of that nature, instantly increases the Insurance quota for that organization IF you can't ensure the safety of your members at all times. A "Foam" sword, made to look identical to a real Sword, even though its still made of foam, still produces a certain margin of Liability in bodily harm, should someone mis-use the weapon or not use it within the scope of the rules of the given system. Now, that being said, The SCA does in fact have high intensity compressed wooden, and sometimes solid core Plastic weapons that are wrapped in duct tape that are as close as out insurance will allow for us to be a multinational organization, that exists in over 19 countries, and is still able to have a 3 million dollar Insurance bond to back all of our Fighters who are at risk anytime they fight. Armor: Now... the next issue; If you had spent more time training as a heavy fighter, you'd have also learned our weapon and armor requirements. That make this oh so very real, and your knowledge and assessment of the SCA very very flawed. First, all armor worn on the "list", (battle field) must be approved and confirmed by a marshal at sight prior to any event. that marshal does whats called a "Punch" test. Where they literally choose up to 3 sections of each piece of armor in question above the bare minimum requirements (Gorge (Throat), Kidney, Genital, head and spine. ), and proceed to use a custom device that drops usually a 5 to 10 lbs weight of 1 inch diameter at a set height, (I believe its 3 feet, but I may be wrong), and test's to see if the armor can withstand a direct force blow of no less than 500lbs, (250lbs for light "Fencing" fighting), and not seriously dent, chip, fray, splinter, or shatter from the impact. If the armor can withstand the "Punch test" then its given a piece of duct tape on the helm to mark that it was approved by the marshal in question. Next; All armor MUST be created akin to standards of Mid-evil society from 6th Century AD to 16th Century AD, using techniques, not necessarily materials of the target era. Now more hard core puritans will use the exact materials, and forge their own armor and equipment how it was done for the era of the "Persona" they are emulating. Time frame : (Period accuracy) Which brings me to yet another inaccuracy about this entire mess that you are grossly over looking. The SCA is not a set time frame. A member creates a person that "Could have" existed anywhere in the world within the 6th Century AD, to the 16th Century AD, and then personally researches that "persona" and tries to emulate as much of that persona's identity as they feasibly can, within the limitations of time, and the materials they have as an individual. So you may very well find a person who emulates a 16th Century English Knight in personality, likes, attire, and code of conduct, who for the current moment wears on the list a hodge podge mix of armor and equipment from half a dozen different era's and regions, because that was all they were able to piece together at the time. The SCA does not frown (usually) upon this. The effort is still there and the "player" is still sorting out their individual identity for their persona, and trying to build the right element for their persona that reflects their individual interest within the Society as a whole. Weapon/ Armor Density: The "Rattan" weapons are used again for safety. They are not always wrapped in foam as you so boldly put it, but wrapped, region to region, Kingdom to Kingdom, based on individual sub-group rulings within the SCA as a whole, on what each Kingdom believes is safe or readily available for their particular region. Some regions will use Rattan, others Wood with PVC piping encased around it, and other yet still Rubber tipped "Edged" weapons or even in some cases, "Rubber" replicas of actual weapons. In most cases its Rattan, wrapped in Duct tape, to ensure that the weapon will not splinter, break, or come apart during the combat settings, to ensure safety at all times. However, the general rule for all weapons used and wielded within the SCA, is a weapon, must first be Authorized on the "List" within an official combat training session of no less than 10 hours of training, and secondly, taken to an event and tested against a Knight or Combat Marshal to ensure that your use of that weapon can be done safely and within the weight limitations of the organization itself. Which is 1 lb per foot in Length. This is to ensure that the raw impact of the weapon in question does not exceed to 500lb safety limitation stress point of the armor in question. Further more all weapons MUST be no less than 1.5 Inched in total circumference diameter, while all openings worn on all facial armor and helms must be no more than 1.25 Inches (Preferably 1inch in most Kingdoms), to allow for a quarter inch variance in-case the rare event happens in which the weapon splinters, or shatters upon impact, the target person in question is less likely to be blinded by shrapnel from the impact. Further more all armor must have the tensile strength of 14 gauge Steel (Sometimes 12 gauge), to ensure again that the wearer's armor can not be punctured from an excessive thrust from a weapon in question. Live Steal: - First and foremost. Live steal DOES EXIST, in both the format of "Light fighting", which uses Epe, Schloger, foil, and in some regions, Rapier weapons, and also whats called "Extreme class" fighting which is only allowed to be wielded by Knights, and persons who have achieved the "Bronze" ring in light combat. In short, only persons who have proven themselves to be highly skilled fighters, are allowed, through invite only, to join the live steal faction of the SCA. Because.. again... the primary goal is to ensure that all persons use these weapons safely and do not seriously harm one another, until they are trained in their ability to wield the weapons properly, by becoming a Knight, or something similar within the other factions of live combat. --continued --
Kingdom limitations: Each Kingdom is entitled to change the base rules within a set margin of specifications so long as they can prove through scientific means that their changes will be safer over all for the players in the group who engage in the combat settings and events. Most Kingdoms, follow a general guideline establish by SCA corporate itself, that all MUST comply to. From there each Kingdom may add to the rules or alter with proof, that their alteration is more period and scientifically accurate as well as well documented; while still sustaining that key factor of being 100% safe for the persons involved, within the obvious limitations of any physical sport, or combat system. This is because any person on a field list who IS authorized, may not entirely be the most skilled at the use of that weapon in question and while authorized as being "Generally" safe with the use of the weapon, may for what ever reason in question make a mistake and do something that could be life threatening, or highly dangerous in the process of using said weapon. Thus each Kingdom is granted the ability to "adjust" the rules of their kingdom within a set margin of reason. Combat system: The Combat system is not 100% "Period accurate" for a very key reason, that had you actually taken the time to learn, study, and read up on the matter though any of the dozens of sites on this topic, such as oh... www.sca.org you'd have known that the combat system is designed to "simulate" a combat setting of Chivalry, where all members operate on the "Honor" system of combat. Meaning that unlike your extreme over simplification about "simply touching" the opponent's body with the wooden weapon, that is so very seriously not the case when you watch your own video in which fighters are swinging full force like a disjointed Angry Jedi, hopping to chop down a mad mob of Sith. The combat system operates on a multi tiered structure which I will be happy to explain to you, as you clearly did not listen to any instruction and more than likely got pissed off that they made you strike a tree or a Pale for 3 hours a training session, instead of getting out into the meat of the list and showing your mad "Wu tang" skills as a talented fighter. The reason why I speculate this? Your complete and total lack of knowledge as to how all of this operates, ist system and intended amount of applied force, weapon structure and reasoning behind why we do what we do. Its clear to me, and most of the SCA people commenting on here, that you have absolutely NO clue as to what your talking about. But here, let me educate you: Kill - Kills operate on a hit location bases of strikes combat, and draw cut, piercing cut, and "chopping cut" attacks using the entire body as a target above the knees. A successful "Kill" happens when ever a person either is hit with enough force between 100lbs of direct force pressure to 500lbs of direct force pressure, to where the wearer of the armor can "feel" the impact of the strike in question. A "Kill is anytime a person either gets hit in the head directly, in either a stabbing or chopping motion, or hit twice in the torso, upper and lower combined, or has had all their limbs removed, and can not legally "fight" any further. Such as hitting both arms. Hit location - For heavy combat there are only 6 hit locations that any fighter must protect and or target. A single blow to the head, one to two blows to the torso, (Two lower abdominal areas, or 1 blow to the upper area), The arms, upon which the fighter losses that subsequent arm, and the legs above the knee, and must either hobble to move, if they have lost one leg, or drop to their knees. Impact control - This is the most important thing in the SCA. While its highly important for accuracy and being able to hit your target with enough force by which they "Feel" the impact within the armor; You must also do it with enough finesse that you don't break their hands, armor or body in the process. Something that is repeatedly taught at most Fighter practices to ensure that you don't injure the other players, as swinging a big thick wooden blunt force object at an average speed of 100 MPH, CAN shatter bones from the sheer kinetic force of an average 3 foot long dense wooden object being swung at a very fast speed, with in most cases a counter weight at the pummel, to allow for accurate weapon balance, and strike force. When combining all of these physics, its highly important that people control their striking movements and not treat this as just any old Bludgeon weapon. Within the SCA, we have special Rubber and safety impact foam tips that attach to the Wooden body of the weapon to signify different styles of weapons. Including Axe heads, stabbing tips, and even in some cases, special "Halberd" style "cutting" edges. The only exception to all of this, is the entire weapon MUST by society standard weigh no more than 1lb per foot of length. "Authorizing" - When ANY person starts heavy fighting with SCA they are REQUIRED to start with what is known as "Sword and board". Meaning that they must first train with a standard "sword" of up to and between 28 inches, to 42 inches and then train using that weapon combination at a "Fighter practice" until either a Heavy Marshal, or a "Master of Arms"/ "Sage" (MOA, not to be confused with AOA, see below), decides they are ready to "Authorize" within that weapon type. Once that person is given the "go-ahead' they then must attend a Baronial level event and test their knowledge and skill set and safe and proper use of said weapon. If they prove that they can successfully use that weapon combination, then and only then may they freely use it in any melee, tourney, or event. Each weapon type, combat system, and style of fighting MUST be "Authorized" prior to being allowed to "legally" use it openly within the SCA as a whole. Peerage titles: Yomen - A very basic baronial level award. Used typically as a "welcome to the SCA, please stick around" AOA - "Award of Arms" - A Kingdom level and Society level award, Used to signify to all members of the Kingdom and region at large that said person is a recognized and respect member of the "Society" and has shown through merit of personality to be a person of honor and chivalry, and allowed to openly brandish their edged weapons in public without typically any person questioning their intent. "Knight"/ Bronze Ring - A fighting based position of recognition, in which a person has been "Squired" by another heavy fighter because they have proven through skill and dedication to the art of "fighting" within the SCA. Also sometimes referred to as a "Bronze ring" within the light fighters. Thought he Bronze ring, is slightly different in that only a limited number of persons per Kingdom may hold at any time a "Bronze ring". To obtain said bronze ring, a person must request a duel with the current holder of the ring and best them in armed combat. (Wears a white belt or white sash) Marshal - A highly trained fighter, who removes their armor and stands on the side line of any combat list, looking for any person who violates the minimum safety requirements, or may have gotten injured in the course of a combat. Their role operates as both a on the site first response medical staff, as well as a referee. Each Marshal type, specializes in a specific type of Armed combat. (Typically wears an "Orange" belt or Sash or has a 3 to 6 foot checkered pole in hand, which is used to get fighters attention, and keep their distance from the armed combat. ) MOA / Sage - "Master of Arms" - A kingdom level award, where a person who has Authorized in every "known" heavy weapons technique available as well as has been Authorized as a Certified Marshal for each of those weapon types, Signifying them, as a True "Master" of all known weapons within that Kingdom. When established as an MOA, in most cases, said person MUST be a Knight prior to be granted that award, and thus must also swear an oath of fealty to the Kingdom in question. A Sage, is a person granted an MOA who instead swears the oath to the Society itself and not a specific King, or Kingdom. Often a Sage is also an unknighted Heavy fighter. (Typically wears a "Red" belt or Sash) Pelican - Extremely rare, and one of the hardest titles to establish. Usually takes on average about 10 years at least under the direct supervision and instruction of another Pelican. A Pelican is one of the most respected Peerages because these people are the people that run the event behind the scenes. they dedicate their role within society to run the events, handle security, operations, finances, and all other matters that sustain the fluid functionality of the event at large. (Typically wears a "Blue" belt or Sash) Laurel - A person who has proven to the society at large within their Kingdom and Barony to be either a highly skilled artist, Historian, or researcher that can back up their historical A&S findings with actual proven documented facts by no less than 3 recognized historians, or in the case of Scientific research for the safety of arms types within the Kingdom, proven field tested applications and use of said combat system type , within a safe and controlled setting, where the weapon variance within the society will not pose a threat to the general safety of its members. (Typically wears a "Yellow" belt or Sash) "Heraldic Device" - An individuals personal and federally recognized Coat of arms that is a registered alias and trademark of that persons "Persona" within the SCA and the United States at large. --continued--
Officers: These are persons who are voted into position within the society whom have proven to the society to be viable candidates to run different aspects of the internal operations of the 501 C -3 organization that is, the SCA. Every tier of operation within the entire organization, has different types of officer roles, that are given 16th century roles and titles, based on the level of operation that the society has established within that region or location. Starting with a simple "Shire/ Canton" - Both of which requires at least 5 fully registered members to be in that given location that operate as the locations operating body. Consisting of a Sénéchal, (Operating tier President), Herald (Operations tier reporter), and an "Axe checker" (Operations treasurer). Additionally there must be 2 additional persons in that location that are standard members. The next tier of established peerage is what is called a "Landed Barional", which has no less than 30 active member in the group, and must consist of the 3 prior officer roles, in addition to a voted in Baron/ Baroness, Châtelaine (Handles hospitality), at least 1 fighting marshal if the group wishes to hold "Fighting Practice", and a few other roles I can't remember at this time, as its been over 10 years since I last held an officer role. The next tier is a Principality with is usually roughly 50 to 75 members, though I have seen them as high as 99 members, and finally a "Kingdom", which has an awarded "King and queen", who achieve that title by winning a "Crown Tourney", a heavy fighting event held every 6 months, and sustained only for a rein of 6 months, and must be sustained by winning the tourney every 6 months to retain the title of "King", which changes in title every time the said person wins the title role. King/ Unlanded Baron, Duke, and many others that I have long since forgotten. So.. the problem here, is that again you very clearly flagrantly and rather disrespectfully, didn't do your homework on this organization. The people running the organization and events do not run it through a position of combat might. They operate through a democratic system of vote and are voted into different positions of power every 2 to 4 years, based on the populace and their desire to see said person sustain said role. Only the title of "King/ Queen" and "Prince/ Princess" which is better seen as National "President"/ "Vice president"" type role is fought for in combat. But that role has limited power, and may only make "Kingdom" level executive decisions and awards to persons who have earned those titles and positions. They may also at their peerage, publicly "Ban" a person that has violated the rules of the society, but only after the other cabinet members of the Kingdom level peerage, have voted on that decision and make a democratic decision on the matter at hand. Thus the "King/ Queen" is less the "Ruler" of the "Kingdom" and more a political figure head, granted the power to make specific executive decision, during their short term of rule. Something that had you bothered to actually research this faction the main site of www.sca.org, you would have known as most of what I have written in extensive detail, IS located on that main site and covers a great deal more on this topic than you are clearly willing to research. Proving further, that you had a short, all be it bad experience, and automatically "Assumed" everything you have falsely stated about this 50 year old organization, based on your "Observations" as a professional Mid-evil Historian, who clearly failed to actually do the research on the target topic at hand, and very erroneously spouted off about your clearly incorrect knowledge on an organization that more than likely created your precious Hema, as those who do the research often find that most parts of "Geek" culture were influenced by non other than the SCA. Including Gary Gigax. Especially when you consider that Miriam Zimmer Bradly, Poppy Z-brite, Michael Longcore, Mercadies Lackey, and so many many many more all helped shaped this organization into what it is today. Your knowledge is extremely flawed, and I refuse to award you the title of "Sir" in this as you lack all professional courtesy to do your homework properly on this very topic as your routinely attack a 50 year old organization, and fail time and time again in your video presented above, to show a single piece of credible evidence to support your grievous claims, all because you briefly "Felt" the organization was not for you, but could not be bothered to take the actual time to research the group and verify that it was in fact the group that put a bad taste in your mouth, and not your own presumed ego, arrogance, and outright ignorance about how this seasoned organization actually operates, the actual level of training that actually does go into the various forms of heavy combat fighting, and most importantly your over all take away from the group, when its more than clear to any actual member that you have no flipping clue what your talking about, as not once, did you mention "Fighter practice", the initial Barony that you had your sour experience, or even the "Pale", or any other "Key" aspect that would show an actual member that you not only paid attention to what you were being told, but also that you did... again... your homework on the subject. Its almost like hating DnD because you saw one book of the game, but never bothered to actually play it, then came across Blizzard WOW and decided that WOW was more akin to your presumptions of what a true Fantasy should be, based on your education, and then decided to rip into DnD telling people how its Cyberpunk technology and laser pistols and character evolution based on their blood really puts a sour taste in your mouth. All the while touting how great your system that YOU like is, and how DnD needs to be more like WOW, even though you clearly have never played it. But hey, your an Internet icon right? so we must all respect your ignorant knowledge of a 50 year old organization, that you clearly knew nothing about, but OH so arrogantly attack through your self entitled elitism. Thanks... for your ignorance input.
OMG! I thought I was the only one who had this opinion about the SCA. I too, have nothing against SCA. I think a lot of reenacting groups could benefit from following a lot of SCA's philosophies of inclusion. I've seen too many groups that will cry about no one "being interested in history" and then turn around and pick on someone for having silver painted plastic buttons. Well, gee, maybe if you didn't bully people, you would have people join you. Borrowing from Divinci Code, no one hates history. They just hate their own. And when they have a bad history with historical groups, they don't want to join and nor should they. I've had several bad run ins with bad groups that nearly forced me out of reenacting altogether. It did force me to go solo. But I do not like SCA fighthing. I've been in Martial Arts for 25 years. My first day of SCA was not impressive. They just smacked people around and I was very confused about that. Also, you can't preach safety from your mouth, and then turn around and pull whatever out of your ass and call that a technique. Bad technique and safety are oil and water. They don't go together. You are much, much safer with a steel edged blade and no armor, but good techniques, then you are fully armored a rittan sword and bad techniques. And there's something about when you have a lot of "safety" it makes people think it's okay to hit hard and it really isn't. (Queue the SCA fanatics "yOu DoN'T UnDErStand. It IsN't sUPposED tO bE AcCuRAte." So, in other words you agree with me that it is crap... It maybe fun crap, but it's still crap.) I went to a HEMA school for my first class there and it was night and day compared to SCA. They did nothing but emphasize good techniques. Being aware of the blade and stepping and slashing. While I don't have the most technically advanced teacher in the world (he's a young guy), he's certainly has a good foundation. Also, I want to state that there is no way to get 100% combat accurate in anything. Every single martial art falls short in this aspect, because when it comes down to it, you're really not actually trying to kill that person.
I wanted to comment on this some vids ago. Your opinion on SCA is very well understandable. Its neither historical nor recreation of fighting. Its a game just as the fullcontact sport of IMCF and HMBIA (Battle of the nations) is a sport (which is not historically accurate aswell btw). Those are perfectly fine in their own right. And surely fun, but not the thing for me though ^^ Im more into living history and HEMA. Azincourt 2015 was a blast !! Two questions: Do you have a Facebook presence ? Does the SCA really try to recreate history ? Doesnt look like it ^^ I always thought it was some kind of fantasy.
The SCA on their website say they focus on re-creating: www.sca.org They include a but of fantasy, in they they make up their own characters, but they are supposed to be doing things historically accurate. I technically have a Facebook presence with my channel, but I don't bother updating it. I choose to just focus on RUclips... perhaps I should focus more on getting my Facebook page updated: facebook.com/MedievalReview/ Good reminder... thanks!
I dont really follow you in your presentation... I dont think there is anything out there that represents what it really was like back then... even the swords we have today have a element of modern technology in them... I would disagree that Hema has more historical accuracy than SCA just another element... if you are talking sword play.. then sure Hema has an advantage.. But if we are discussing armor... SCA wins imo... but I do see your video comes down to what you find value in and what I find value in. At the very end of the day.,.. sure SCA has some inaccuracies... but.. that said...SCA has one of the largest groups of medieval re-enactors in the US and that means more people that have a place to encourage their love of history... where there is a starting point there is a passion point... and from that passion point breeds interest in further historical accuracy... many long time SCAdians further refine their armor and kit every year with each thing they learn to further increase historical accuracy... but we all have to start somewhere and the SCA as it is in a whole accomplishes that very well.
I had the same reaction you had toward the heavy armor. It just isn't realistic. The free for all battles can get ridiculous. I have wondered what would happen if a group of the SCA players were to practice some disciplined formations and battle tactics would fare, as in the Romans vs the Gauls.
When it happens, those groups become very deadly on the list. See "Pennsic war" and listen for the battle regiment called the "Two Chucks". The problem returns to the fact that the SCA is dominantly a Hobbyist activity, with only a set percentage of the organization being dedicated to learning things right. Which on average has about 40% of its members and fighters at any given time not being dedicated to actually learning how to fight. But when you do have any group, even a house doing it... its way different.
In as much as I enjoy this video I can see the presenter here has missed. Safety comes first in the SCA and everything else will fall into place. While we are not perfect we know what the flaws are in Historical Accuracy when it comes to the SCA LOL
Yeah, when I spar with SCA people, they don't seem to understand that a "good" blow with a bladed weapon against armor and helmet is pretty pointless. I'm trying to go for the gaps in the armor with a thrust and they're busy swinging bladed weapons like bludgeoning weapons. Recently, during a friendly bout, I had tripped and fallen to the ground, but I took the guy down with me. I had his...pole sword/glaive pinned under me, stopping him from using it, when I got to my knees he started using it as a saw against my gut, but I was wearing cloth. I seriously doubt using a glaive or polesword like that would be sufficient to saw through it enough to be effective, without full control of the weapon (especially if I had at least an arming jacket or gambeson). If I had lamellar, maille, or plate it wouldn't have done anything at all. About the only time, in my estimation, that I was "killed" was when a good thrust was made, to least protective parts of my body, but even then it's no guarantee of a kill, realistically speaking. I didn't have a helmet and most of the blows to the head would have been deadly, or at least disorienting, concussive, wounding.
I once knocked out a much larger man than myself right though his ten pound helm with nothing but a rattan stick so you can not assume a blow into a helm with a steel weapon would be pointless.
To address your specific point about sword blows being ineffective against plate armor I had the overall opinion that SCA heavy weapons fighters believe the sword would cut through plate armor because the metal used in medieval times was believed to be of an inferior type. In my opinion only a downward blow into the very top of a helm at full force could have cut through a helm even if the metal was inferior to modern materials. Most of the blows counted as kills in SCA fighting with their rattan swords were what they called "snap" shots. The standard SCA snap blow comes in from a horizontal angle and has significantly less force than a full downward strike however it can still land with enough force to dent a 14 gauge helm. There is no way to tell what would have knocked someone out through the helm even if the blade did not cut through anything.
No. It's because the armour you wear are for your own safety, comfort, and cosmetics. What you see people wearing is a "skin" in a sense that represents the protective equivalent of a mid-status 9th-10th century Norman knight or footman. Low quality metallurgy mail, open face helm with a nasal, like you see on the Bayeux tapestry.
I agree with you ; I study FMA and I went up against a person who was a part of the SCA and his style of fighting is just come at you with every thing he has and I was able to beat him just by working angles. SCA is cool looking but would not work in real melee combat. I am not downing the SCA I just don't think it is very practical as a Martial Art.
I can tell you were not fighting against a very good SCA fighter. For one thing many SCA fighters also have training in martial arts and some have black belts. I looked into FMA and was not impressed. In fact I sparred with an FMA teacher with gear on and beat him easily.
@@noloferratus depends on what style of FMA you’re fighting, there are more sport oriented ones, but if you go against someone from a group called the dog brothers, or fight against someone who does pekiti tirsia kali which is taught to military, I feel like your average Filipino martial arts practitioner from the prior mentioned would give any sca fighter a run for their money especially if you use their rules which include grappling, disarms, and ground fighting.
Do to the fact that armor really does nothing to benefit you in fighting you see many people wearing leather and calling it historically accurate, in my experience.
+Floyd Keim III If armour did not benefit you in combat, how come armour developed like it did in the medieval ages? And people are generally lazy to research anything when it comes to history. They believe what the media tells them, and what they're told from video games. Which explains there are masses of people who thinks leather was used for armour, rather than tying the actualy iron or steel armour pieces together. If it's about people in the SCA using leather as armour because they're apparently recreating lightsaber fights, then yes, it would "make sense" to use the lightest "heavy" armour, historical accurate or not. And about the historical aspect. Most of the SCA "fighters" wouldnt stand a chance against someone who's a decent HEMA practitioner. SCA fighters has a tendency to telegraph their strikes, and dont even get me started about how a rounded stick doesnt teach you edge alignment or give you feedback like a sharp or blunted steel blade does.
@@Bru741iX Lol, HEMA started to get popular because of guys like the video being A) shit heavy fighters and B) afraid to get hurt. They join the SCA, try Heavy, get dominated and smashed, run to HEMA to hide behind their gentle touch point virtual non-contact dancy-dance "sparring" because "muh historical accuracies". HEMA point touches don't even come close to the necessary force of an SCA hit. You're using a sword, not a lightsaber HEMA... Lol
yeah man, but US americans are also wholeheartedly proud of their military service although us is biggest agressor since ww2..so im surprised ur surprised :)
Look at the tape on their swords and other edged weapons. They have vertical strips of contrasting tape to designate the edge vs the flat of the blade. It is also up to the person being hit to be honorable about what hits they take. The marshals are there to encourage honor and chivalry and mediate contested hits. The SCA values honor and chivalry especially since they have a title system that is based on merit, honor, and of course marshal ability.
My experience with the SCA is they prioritize inclusiveness over historical accuracy. Most members, at least in the European branches, understand that SCA combat is medieval-esque and not a true recreation. That being said, many members take great pride in the accuracy of their non-combat activities.
I tried SCA heavy and wasn't into it. Then I tried their rapier fencing and found it much more to my liking. Real steel swords, actual technique, and the shortcomings as far as accuracy are fixed in the third form of combat which is taking ground but still has a long way to come: cut and thrust. Cut and thrust is like rapier but with more flexibility as far as percussive blows and what swords are acceptable to use. Longswords, arming swords, and things like that are common, as are earlier, more blade heavy rapiers. The assumption in this sport is that there is no armor, and when you get hit, you lose what is hit, so long as it's hit with point or edge. Heavy is still fun, but it isn't real fighting. Rapier and cut and thrust are much closer and warrant at least one more visit with the SCA.
I've also heard SCA heavy sparring is a concussion magnet.
Richie Demo Not if you have a properly padded helm
hell yes after 3 years of being hit by 400 plus pound guys in the head I cant even remember my name , so to keep what I have left I now do rapier and I am planning on cut and thrust .
I have been a participant of the SCA for just short of 45 years. I have been both "hard suite" and "light weapons" fighter. I am the first to admit (while many wouldn't) that armored combat is not nor ever has been or ever was historically accurate. It is closer to "BRAVEHEART" than anything else. We don't do actual battle recreations since , for one thing we don't have anybody really portray any historical participants. In other words, no William Wallace for Sterling Bridge or William the Bastard for Hastings. Like so much we made it up as we went along. The light weapons ie rapier is much the same more Errol Flynn in Captain Blood than Oliver Cromwell at Marsten Moor. In the beginning over 50 years ago we weren't sure if we would be historical or fantastical. To be Lord of the Rings or the Doomday book. So we created traditions that used a little of both.
The problem with not being specific on what you are trying to do is that the rule set will not reflect a logical purpose. Many things are said to be restrictions for safety while at the same time other things are allowed that are even less safe than what is being banned. The rule set is bogus and simply intended to give advantage to those who fight with sword and shield. In other words rules are falsely claimed to be for safety when in fact there is a hidden agenda to favorites one type of fighter over another.
@@noloferratus What ruleset favours sword and shield? Physics? Geometry? Those are kinda important rules.
My shire gave longsword/two handed sword the option of a 'lethal' pommel spike so they'd have a hope against any one that closed inside their range by binding their sword high. Which is the easiest way to kill them with sword and shield.
Ok, I get a lot of your points on SCA heavy fighting, I gave it up last year myself to focus more on HEMA and what the SCA calls Cut & Thrust (which you'd probably like) and I echo most of them, especially the real steal argument. That being said, I don't thing you had a very good exposure to what SCA heavy fighting is. 1: that...thing you wanted to create a two-handed sword out of It is odd, and I'm not sure how to address it, and I have no idea what you were thinking with it. But SCA rattan sword-sticks (because, really that's what they are, no getting around that) are not padded with foam. The have reinforcing wrap and contrasting tape to indicate the edge and the flat, and some use a relatively soft thrusting tip. Flat shots are not called; I'll submit it simply takes experience to know when you hit someone on the flat, and no one of honor would take that point. 2: In the real world, helmets need to cover the head for safety reasons, and an individual's choice of armor covers literally the breadth of human history from SCA minimum to full plate harness. However, in the rules of the list, everyone is understood to be wearing a metal skull cap leaving the sides of the head open, a chain hauberk and padded gambeson, basically Norman gear c11th century. Any hit to the head or face is "lethal", and regardless of actual protection an individual is wearing, any shot that would have killed or incapacitated through maile is a telling blow. The important thing after all, is safety of the participants. 3: Martial principals. I'm not sure about most of the other kingdoms, or even other baronies near me, but in my particular group, I know some incredible swordsmen, even if all they use are sticks. 4: Other groups tend to focus on a later period, while SCA tends to focus on 10th-14th century, or even earlier and have a fairly hard limit of focus on 1550. HEMA, BotN, ACL, they all tend to start from at least 15th century on up. I think it's a little funny, but they all seem to start where SCA ends.
Most of your corrections are correct however HEMA is not a more realistic combat training. I'm sorry but what I saw them do was almost touch combat compared to SCA combat. None of them even seemed to make full blows. I would have loved to spar with those HEMA people but they would not allow me to prove anything to them.
Haha I read the title of this video and all I heard was a dalek screaming, "Does not compute! Does not compute! Non sequitur statement!". I think I've been in the SCA for too long. :D
Their motto is, "Recreating the middle ages as they should have been.".
The SCA is the arcade version of a medieval simulator. They are considered to be wearing a gambeson, maille hauberk and open faced helm with a nasal regardless of what they are actually wearing while playing. And no, flat of the blade is not considered a killing blow. Edge orientation does matter.
There are plenty of people who strive for more historical accuracy. They are called the 'period police' and are as popular as herpes. The SCA is a game, dude. A game. It is for fun. It isn't pretentious like HEMA in thinking it's actually recreating something from the past, which neither the SCA nor HEMA are.
One last thing; I am not sure where you got the insane notion that a touch to the helmet is a killing blow, but that couldn't be farther from the truth. I think you need to go out and get some more experience with the game before making anymore embarrassing false statements about it. Have no illusions, it's full contact.
I'm a 20 year vet of the SCA, so you can trust my word.
Exactly. 20+ year vet as well. Initially cut my teeth in the McArthur Parking lot, in Kingdom of the Mist's, and now cutting other peoples teeth in Sternfeld. People who know nothing about the organization always attack it for its combat and fail to see the Castle behind the regiment. Insisting that the fighters are the only thing the SCA has to offer. Kills me.
as a SCA member i'd have to say that Yes it is a bit of a game if not more of a sport and every kingdom does do the heavy fighting a lil' different. as for accuracy in our group its not ment to be 100 percent to a tee accurate after all it is the
Society
for
Creative
Anachronisms ^_^
(mind you i am a jeweler, bard and crossbowman in my part of the group, my brothers are heavies)
also with our Rattan swords he do a layer of fiber tape to hold the bamboo together better as well as Duct tape that defines the edge and sides with colour, Some of our heavies actually shave grooves into the staves to stand in and let the user feel where the edge is
You have some serious misconceptions about SCA heavy combat. The rattan is not wrapped in foam, edge alignment is indicated with tape and matters, a mere touch with any side of the stick is not counted as a telling blow. The armor as worn is not the notional armor which is a nasal helm with a mail drape and a mail haubergeon over a gambeson. Nobody in the SCA thinks that heavy combat is a historically accurate representation of medieval warfare. However, you still learn a bunch of great martial skills through heavy combat like body mechanics, measure, timing, and so on. Your rant doesn't really track with reality. There is also a lot of crossover between the SCA and HEMA and both groups have benefited as a result.
I appreciate the critique, but it isn't without its faults.
Largely you criticized the fighting not for what it is, but for what *you* think it should be. The goal of the fighting is not to accurately represent true historical fighting. As you had said yourself, the only way to really achieve that is through actual reenactment fighting. I can assure you, it would exist if there was a demand for participation among the members, but as you can probably guess, there isn't. Like you said, a large part of the draw to the organization is the fighting, under its current incarnation, which is quite frankly the sole reason why I participate. Its an effective way to play a fun sport while dressing up in armor and following some medieval themed rules. It is what it is and it wouldn't be "better" if you took all of the elements away that make it popular, and replaced it with something more historical.
Having said that, a few things you got wrong:
The swords do have edges.
You can't just tap someone on the head for a kill.
Despite the appearance of the armor on the field, the rules define the armor to be less than what you often see (chain, not plate), meaning that the killing blows don't have to be as hard as you would think.
The recreation aspect is actually intended to recreate tournaments, not large battles. The large battles are thrown in because they are a fun addition.
The SCA is a big tent organization, which is why it has so many members. The A stands for anachronism for a reason. The goal is generally to be as inclusive as possible while encouraging a push toward historical accuracy, but is not required.
You needs to do SCA cut & thrust if you want historical accuracy. It's basically hema with better costumes.
You have a lot of good points but you don't understand power. No one in HEMA swings as hard as SCA folks or BOTN folks. If SCA fighters used steel for heavy fighting with no other changes in the armor people wear now, then people would literally die. I did SCA fighting at a high level for 25 years and I could give you a long list of injuries from rattan. What the average HEMA person considers and "injury" is just a normal level of pain from typical practice. HMB/BOTN/IMCF/WMFC/ACL fighting is also full power and does use steel but the level of armor and barrier to entry is MUCH higher. Starting next year sabotons will be mandatory because the number of toe amputations was deemed too high. People lose eyes, get broken bones, and injuries on the level of NFL players. I myself had my hip split open to the bone a few months ago THOUGH ARMOR at an HMB 5v5. HEMA is awesome, but HEMA people's constant need to declare there own moral superiority is kind of obscene. Some people like tennis, some people like raquetball...they don't tell each other the other game is inferior.
Your correct in that the HEME people just have a touch combat mentality. I checked into them after I quit the SCA and decided it would be a waste of time.
HEMA is based in unarmored dueling. If you feel pain from a properly edge aligned strike, you're going to be incapacitated in all likelihood. You don't have to swing hard enough to break a house down to injure someone with a sword quite significantly... that's the whole point of a sword lol. It's not a mace. Swords weren't used against armor in the way that they are in SCA anyways, so the amount of force isn't even really relevant.
One other thing, the sword has to be marked with red tape where the killing edge is. That's what we do in Middle Kingdom. You're right in that they don't try to recreate the effectiveness of armor. They end up giving good bashes and calling it a kill or disable.
i love it in 10:55 one of the guys puts his shield up against the guy he is fighting effectively opening himself up and blocking his own blows at the same time :P.
Yeah, they don't have any concept of cutting along the shield, but why would they? their rules don't make it worth it to follow proper techniques.
with sca to a extent historical acuricy is vary important using steel blunts really would actually limit who can and can't fight because not very one can afford heavy steel armor using rattan is better becaus it allows more to participate with simulator armor made of aluminum or heavy plastic rattan could also be shaped to have a edg and flat and sca you can use hema in a fight minus grappling but I will agree that with safety beaing a concern limits who realistic a mass battle can be and I think a nother thing that gets the historically acurate people up set you can see a anciant roman fighting a germanic 15th century knight and I personally consider the sca to be historical fiction than full on historically accurate thank you for making the video
when I was with the SCA, the 'blades" were delineated edgewise with red tape, and a "piercing" tip the tip was wrapped in red tape, to make valid kills. There was a difference between the tournament combat and real combat, but the individual would take the tome to research so he would know the difference. That's what i loved about the SCA. It was the research, and the knowledge gained which to me was the real purpose behind the SCA. I was involved mostly in fencing, archery, and with the Musician's Guild. The SCA will always have a tender spot with being held near and dear and for the love of history it engendered.
Sca would work, I'd only win by blunted thrust points. Leave bashing out of it, unless using warhammer or polearms with spikes. Other than that, the bashing looks idiotic.
Sounds like a person that sits on the sidelines and doesn't participate
I also left the SCA because I felt the combat was not realistic enough but the combat training in the HEMA group I check into in my opinion was no more realistic than that of the SCA. The HEMA people were clearly counting blows that were too light to do anything in their tournaments and also incorrectly telling people that the wrap shot used in SCA combat was of no practical value. I was quite unimpressed with their training overall. I actually used an SCA Wrap type of blow in a real fight which saved my life so I know for fact that they were mistaken. In the first place the historical documents do not even show the full range of the blows or how the swords were supposed to be gripped. Imagine someone trying to teach golf to someone who can not even explain how to grip the golf club and that is HEMA. And by the way they would not let me participate in their tournament because they were afraid I would win. I should also say that I once knocked out an opponent with a SCA rattan sword even though he was wearing a standard SCA helm. In truth their is no way to know what effect a sword blow into plate armor would do to an opponent. The sword weapon you created for SCA fighting would not even be allowed in an SCA event because it does not have clearly marked edges so your have no point there whatsoever and are simply mistaken in the rule set they use. when someone hits an opponent with the flat of their rattan weapon in SCA combat they are supposed to tell them not to count the blow and I saw this happen many times. My gripe with SCA combat was mainly in the way they were making up rules as they went by over stretching the definition of what was grappling. The SCA does not have any logically stated purpose and their use of the word "recreate" is misleading. To recreate means to make anew in the imagination. It does not mean make anew in the physical.
Your last bit is not how language works. There is no sense in defining 'recreate' as only being possible in the imagination other than to make a bitter point in reference to your own opinion. Context is important and is perhaps the MOST important thing to consider, as well as nuance, for all of your thoughts written above.
I do have to point out some things that you didn't seem to know. For one, the swords have an edge and flat indicated by duct tape, and some swords even have a more oval shape to indicate it. Also for most places, everyone is said to be wearing a chainmail Hauberk with a Norman conical helm, so if you get a full force hit on somebody's rib, in a real fight that rib would likely be broken and the victim would be at a possibly severe disadvantage in that fight and would probably end up losing. I'm not denying that the SCA combat it kinda like a sport, I'm just letting you know that it goes further than what you mentioned
That's kind of what I never understood, why not use the more realistic larp swords? I never did really get an answer from some of their members. We had an SCA group come do some "battles" at a Faire here. What I found amusing is that they actually have Knightly rankings by regions/States. Cool concept, but boy oh boy do some of these "Knights" have a pompus attitude. They actually believe they are knights lol
SCA combat it is not a representation of real combat, it is a representation of tournament combat. It is nigh impossible to make a combat system that mimics real combat without it hurting someone or being dangerous or being full of cheats. The SCA rules state that no matter what Armour you are wearing there is an imaginary Armour that everyone is considered to have, that determines the level of protection. The rules state that everyone is wearing a padded gambeson, with a mail hauberk, boiled leather arm and leg protection, and the helmet is a conical helm with a nasal, and mail hanging from said helmet. While that may not be accurate either it makes a bit more sense. If you get hit in the torso wearing a gambeson and hauberk you may break a rib, or be injured in any other way. same with the face, any force to the direct front of the face is a kill, and to the side as well because you wouldn't have much protection according to the imaginary Armour everyone is considered to have. With what is being said About Rattan As the sword, many people shave the sides down so actually be flat, and when you swing the sword and hit you can feel when it is flat or good,. Heavy combat is very much an honor system, let the slain man say he is slain. if someone says no that wasn't good, wasn't hard enough, then okay you hit them harder because that is what they are asking you to do essentially.
I think to get so caught up in the accuracy part would to some people be too regimented and academic, this would actually take some of the fun away, like having a buz kill in a group. imho.
btw. You have an awesome collection.
I think you speak to things you know very little about. You quite literally stated many things as fact that are half truths at best to being just flat out wrong. No one that has done SCA heavy for any time would make a claim to it being historical. The art and sciences are the closest fit but even with that the research tend to be the important aspect not the actual products from the research.
Many of the things that permeate the SCA is its own culture vaguely based something between 600 and 1700 AD. The chivalry based off romantic writings of Geoffrey of Monmouth and his ilk. It is to bad you closed your mind to the game it can be quite fun. And After 30 years of fighting in the SCA I know better than most its warts and pimples but you appear to be jumping to conclusions right off the cliff.
He reminds me of every guy that tried to be a Heavy and just got constantly smashed and ran off to HEMA's dancy touch point system under the excuse of 'muh historical accuracies'.
And I like how he can claim that HEMA is safe with blunt steel swords against fencing masks... Like dude, it's not a HEMA "touch" for a kill. You need a clean, hard blow. If I hit HEMA guys in their fencing masks with a blunt steel sword, hell even an SCA rattan club-sword, as hard as my typical 'kill' used to be in the SCA, I'd be hospitalizing people. I'd also be rhino-hiding pretty much every HEMA 'hit' I've ever seen. My marshall wouldn't have counted any of them.
This vid is a butthurt guy who couldn't hack it as a Heavy.
@@dimman77 dude they’re using techniques meant for unarmored dueling, let them halfsword where they bash your head with the pommels and quillions of the longsword and use the grappling techniques meant for armoured opponents, you’d be dead. That large steel orb at the base of the long swords hilt isn’t just a counter weight lmao.
@@GameSteph Their techniques don't train for medieval war-fighting in any degree of realism. They don't hit hard enough, and don't get hit hard enough. Armour changes things. A pommel is a meme, not a weapon. Same with the 'murder stroke' of trying to use the cross guard as an axe, that's what axes and warhammers were for, not sword quillions. Useless against even a Norman knight's or Viking's mail and helm, let alone coat of plates or bringandine and great helm or salet.
They sucked at heavy fighting and turned into historical dancing touch-point fencers with the same offensive delusions as goofy kung fu 'death touch' practitioners.
@@dimman77 lmao there’s armoured HEMA fighting in Germany called harnishfecten, they use blunted pole axes and you can tell they’re swinging lightly and holding back, they’d rather get the technique down, but invite one of them to SCA and say “swing as hard as you want” guarantee you they’d knock out every sca fighter through armour.
ruclips.net/video/EpuqJHxeaTY/видео.html
@@GameSteph Exception to prove the rule. HEMA these days is dominated by a bunch of dancy longsword point touchers that ran away from getting smashed by SCA heavies and now aren't much different than prancing Olympic fencing.
Sure maybe 1% of harness fighters in HEMA might be decent, but the rest are laughable longsword LARPers who treat their feders as if they were lightsabers. LoL 🤣
I an an avid SCA member and I want to preface this with a very short phrase. "I agree with you." However, that has a caveat. The SCA has three forms of combat (technically there are more, but these are the three with 'peerage orders'); chivalric (heavy), rapier (light), and cut and thrust (C&T). Chivalric falls under the order of chivalry (duh) and are thus proclaimed 'knights', whereas rapier and C&T fall under the order of Defense and are proclaimed 'masters of defense'. Now then, it is widespread within the SCA that the order of chivalry is actually not historically accurate, primarily with the surge of interest in HEMA. The SCA has been slowly developing its answer to HEMA in its development of the cut and thrust community (which is growing quite quickly), but that's not where it started. It started with rapier. I'm not going to go into a lot of history about it, but I will at least state that what we, the SCA rapier community, do is much more historically accurate. It'd be cool if you could make a video referencing that so we can at least have some limelight shined on us, because a lot of our community is still shunned for our combat.
Way back way back when the SCA got it started , they used the Fighters Hand Book and went to the garage made their own gear. Bet there is no
More Carpet Monsters to fight. Some ideas worked better than others.
Information took months not seconds to discover. The safety rules was
Prevent death or bad injury but when hit each other it hurt and enjoy cold beer with each other later. It was long before heavy weapon armor fights. I dont to think the public would accept it back then or insurance company
People that knew what I did say normal people don't enjoy beating people with clubs. That caused it to be a kinda of a closed off group .It's a great place to have fun , stay in shape move into heavy fighting later. I hope this helps to understand how it was.
I had an issue with the fighters ignoring the concept of armor protection too when I first looked into the SCA. It just felt like a more expensive version of Amtgard, which I was and am currently in (I never expected Amtgard to be historically accurate, because they've never claimed to be).
However, my interest returned when I heard that my local group had began introducing rapier combat in their group. For the rapier fighters, things feel a lot more like HEMA. They fight with metal weapons and they don't wear mandatory armor aside from a fencing mask, gorget, padded gloves and a cup. You can wear more protection if you wish, but most rapier fighters only wear modern protection that they hide underneath their garb.
what's your opinion on unscripted re-enactment but based on history
I like your video and agree with many of your points, particularly regarding inaccuracy in historical combat. But in a way, I have a different perspective.
I got started in SCA, but in the "rapier" side. At the time I wanted to get into saber and broadsword fencing, and in my area, there wasn't any group doing it at the time, so I joined SCA rapier fencing Right away I noticed that they had a lot of rules regarding fencing and the gear to be used. For example, you can't do percussive cuts in rapier, unless you have the gear for 'cut and thrust' despite rapiers being able to cut percussively IRL. It also felt like a game of 'tag' but with swords. The SCA, even for Raper, really doesn't understand martial principles or how swords actually work. They did invite me at the time to do heavy fighting but something felt off about it, particularly the issue with edge alignment using rattan sticks. I also found the marshalls a little too authoritarian. Eventually, I moved on to a HEMA group that just recently opened up that does broadsword, saber, single stick, sidesword, and rapier and am much happier there, both in fencing and also in the community.
That said, I still sometimes return to some SCA events because some of the people in our fencing HEMA group did get their start there and, I guess, hold some rank w/in the organization so we sometimes go there with them. But seeing some of the issues, with the fencing, and the community in SCA I'd rather avoid fencing in SCA events altogether if possible.
Their rapier and c&t fighting is historical
yet they like to nit pick about stitch counts fabric weave and similar...
I wonder if a reenactment group using Rawlings synthetic swords would be any good for a good mix of safety and martial principals.
I think some of your argument is off base. Most heavy fighters do flatten the sides of their rattan. I would agree that your $500/up Albion would be more realistic, but at $15-20 for rattan it's definitely more available to someone with a strong interest. I know of some groups review rawlings wasters for SCA use. Also ACL/Battle of Nations have a much higher standard for armoring due to what's allowed for fighting. It's hard to say what was historically accurate. Yes the manuals give us a clue to how some swordsman trained, but not everyone had that sorta training. Also I've never heard anyone in three of the kingdoms I've fought in, refer to it as historically accurate. I think we are all aware that we are fighting with rattan sticks and not killing anyone. I've also never seen a HEMA practicioner or an ACL fighter try to wedge the point of his sword thru an opponents lame to kill. I think you if you take it for what it is you'll enjoy yourself. It all boils down to the same thing, we all love martial weapons and armor, so whether it be SCA, HEMA, ACL, LARP, or some pool noodles in the backyard I think we can appreciate the fun of all it. Besides why do just one, I've been the SCA for a few years, but if I ever live anywhere near a HEMA club I'll be there in a heart beat.
500$? Try 1000 lol. Albion or any company made in america are way overpriced. I'd rather have 4 mediocre windlass swords or 2 good del tin swords than 1 great albion sword.
Agreed, no one would have a grievance with the SCA if it wasn't for the statement of being historically accurate, perhaps most things other then their combat is accurate but I think they should address this or change the game. I have been apart of SCA groups before and I must say the night times can be one hell of a good party (if you cant get laid in the SCA then you cant get laid anyway) or something like that. At the end of the day the SCA is just a sports club, all be it a really neat one but a sports club none the less but even HEMA competition's (way more historically accurate while recreating real martial arts) is a sport as well. Bad ass hobby's all around.
Cant say to what groups youve been visiting but in new york the general feel is "an attempt at historical accuracy" as well as the "10 foot rule" (if it looks accurate from 10 feet away its acceptable) theres really no claim at perfect accuracy (unless someone has the documentation to prove it).
Yeah everyone has suggested to me that I do SCA, but as a rugby player I don't really enjoy the safety of it.
Absolutely have to disagree with you. In your own video the blades that people are using are wrapped in one color with the edge lined in a contrasting color. People know about edge alignment in the SCA a blade with no contrasting line is only used as a thrusting blade. Blades with padded tips and contrasting colors are allowed all striking points. So to say they are just beating each other hilly nilly is not giving all the information available. Perhaps if you had given a few more years into it you would have seen slightly deeper.
+kuribo1 Knowing about edge alignment, vs having pactice with it, is not the same.
A round stick with a "marked line" on it will never feel like a flat sword.
Even foam swords gives you some form of feedback whether or not your edge alignment was correct or not.
Again, a rounded stick, does not.
If theoretical knowledge translated directly to practical experiences, there'd be no reason for people to practice HEMA, Kenjitsui etc.
Because then everybody could read a fighting manual, pick up a sword and be an expert on that giving style of fighting.
I am going to add to this and say that most scadians are fully aware of the inconsistencies between our armour and the damage that just hitting someone would do. and a telling blow would have to be much more than just "bopping" someone with the rattan on any side, but me being a scadian will also say that our rattan weapons are nothing like a real sword and our combat absolutely represents nothing realistic, yet i have not heard of a better alternative for getting the rush of a massively large melee experience that really allows for a full contact aggressive experience
You do know that many of the early drivers of HEMA were in the SCA, right? Also, SCA combat is more like a behourd than war or actual combat. www.aemma.org/misc/events/wmaw_2002/tourn_behourd.html
It is true that the sca does not emulate truly historically accurate martial skills. A person donned in field plate is equivalent to one in minimally approved armour in terms of protection in order to normalize everyone in every time period represented. Lets face it - a 12th century soldier would not normally pair up against a roman centurion. It is a game in effect but having played in the sca for over 25 years i can say that the tactics used on the field are commonly standard for melee. One on one combat really relies on knowing hie to outwit your opponent and his weaknesses within the rules of the game. Strength and endurance play a big part but it depends in what you are looking for. For me it was to personify a particular time period regardless of overall success in prowess. Others in the group may have a different objective. Unfortunately "success" and thus recognition in the group is dependent on how well you play in the game not on how accurate you are which is what finally turned me off on the society - thugs who blow off shots were more apt to be "promoted" vice those who did not play that way.
Battle of Nations FTW....
my advice to you is either to drink heavily , or therapy, lots of it my brother .. you care way too much...
+Lobsang Nyima You are correct, I care about people calling nonfactual things historically accurate.
It's the Society of Creative Anachronism. It's not really meant to be accurate. At least from my point of view and many others. Some groups try to be historically accurate in their look, but the fighting behaves like they are unarmored.
@@breaden4381 Vid guy might need a dictionary so he can look up what 'Anachronism' means. Lol
I've been practicing in HEMA for a bit, and looking to eventually move toward more accurate armored combat. The SCA looks pretty fun, but I'm looking for a more historical and martial perspective. Where could a guy find something like armored HEMA?
"Edge"
Actually.... your video that you filmed of the event does in fact show the difference between a "Flat" vs "Edge" in the armed weapons. But its clear to me, you didn't spend enough time researching the SCA and completely understanding it, to all its depths because it didn't fit your "Idea" of what Mid-evil armed combat should be. In the very video you filmed at and SCA event, if you will watch it carefully; some weapons have a line down one or boths sides. These signify on the "Boffer" style swords of the SCA the "Edge" that your seeking. Now... here is the other problem; For the purpose of Safety and to ensure that the fighters in question do not actually die, as lets face it, having a Mid-evil themed organization of any type, be it LARP, or Reenactment, choreographed live steal fights, or anything of that nature, instantly increases the Insurance quota for that organization IF you can't ensure the safety of your members at all times. A "Foam" sword, made to look identical to a real Sword, even though its still made of foam, still produces a certain margin of Liability in bodily harm, should someone mis-use the weapon or not use it within the scope of the rules of the given system. Now, that being said, The SCA does in fact have high intensity compressed wooden, and sometimes solid core Plastic weapons that are wrapped in duct tape that are as close as out insurance will allow for us to be a multinational organization, that exists in over 19 countries, and is still able to have a 3 million dollar Insurance bond to back all of our Fighters who are at risk anytime they fight.
Armor:
Now... the next issue; If you had spent more time training as a heavy fighter, you'd have also learned our weapon and armor requirements. That make this oh so very real, and your knowledge and assessment of the SCA very very flawed. First, all armor worn on the "list", (battle field) must be approved and confirmed by a marshal at sight prior to any event. that marshal does whats called a "Punch" test. Where they literally choose up to 3 sections of each piece of armor in question above the bare minimum requirements (Gorge (Throat), Kidney, Genital, head and spine. ), and proceed to use a custom device that drops usually a 5 to 10 lbs weight of 1 inch diameter at a set height, (I believe its 3 feet, but I may be wrong), and test's to see if the armor can withstand a direct force blow of no less than 500lbs, (250lbs for light "Fencing" fighting), and not seriously dent, chip, fray, splinter, or shatter from the impact. If the armor can withstand the "Punch test" then its given a piece of duct tape on the helm to mark that it was approved by the marshal in question. Next; All armor MUST be created akin to standards of Mid-evil society from 6th Century AD to 16th Century AD, using techniques, not necessarily materials of the target era. Now more hard core puritans will use the exact materials, and forge their own armor and equipment how it was done for the era of the "Persona" they are emulating.
Time frame : (Period accuracy)
Which brings me to yet another inaccuracy about this entire mess that you are grossly over looking. The SCA is not a set time frame. A member creates a person that "Could have" existed anywhere in the world within the 6th Century AD, to the 16th Century AD, and then personally researches that "persona" and tries to emulate as much of that persona's identity as they feasibly can, within the limitations of time, and the materials they have as an individual. So you may very well find a person who emulates a 16th Century English Knight in personality, likes, attire, and code of conduct, who for the current moment wears on the list a hodge podge mix of armor and equipment from half a dozen different era's and regions, because that was all they were able to piece together at the time. The SCA does not frown (usually) upon this. The effort is still there and the "player" is still sorting out their individual identity for their persona, and trying to build the right element for their persona that reflects their individual interest within the Society as a whole.
Weapon/ Armor Density:
The "Rattan" weapons are used again for safety. They are not always wrapped in foam as you so boldly put it, but wrapped, region to region, Kingdom to Kingdom, based on individual sub-group rulings within the SCA as a whole, on what each Kingdom believes is safe or readily available for their particular region. Some regions will use Rattan, others Wood with PVC piping encased around it, and other yet still Rubber tipped "Edged" weapons or even in some cases, "Rubber" replicas of actual weapons. In most cases its Rattan, wrapped in Duct tape, to ensure that the weapon will not splinter, break, or come apart during the combat settings, to ensure safety at all times. However, the general rule for all weapons used and wielded within the SCA, is a weapon, must first be Authorized on the "List" within an official combat training session of no less than 10 hours of training, and secondly, taken to an event and tested against a Knight or Combat Marshal to ensure that your use of that weapon can be done safely and within the weight limitations of the organization itself. Which is 1 lb per foot in Length. This is to ensure that the raw impact of the weapon in question does not exceed to 500lb safety limitation stress point of the armor in question. Further more all weapons MUST be no less than 1.5 Inched in total circumference diameter, while all openings worn on all facial armor and helms must be no more than 1.25 Inches (Preferably 1inch in most Kingdoms), to allow for a quarter inch variance in-case the rare event happens in which the weapon splinters, or shatters upon impact, the target person in question is less likely to be blinded by shrapnel from the impact. Further more all armor must have the tensile strength of 14 gauge Steel (Sometimes 12 gauge), to ensure again that the wearer's armor can not be punctured from an excessive thrust from a weapon in question.
Live Steal: - First and foremost. Live steal DOES EXIST, in both the format of "Light fighting", which uses Epe, Schloger, foil, and in some regions, Rapier weapons, and also whats called "Extreme class" fighting which is only allowed to be wielded by Knights, and persons who have achieved the "Bronze" ring in light combat. In short, only persons who have proven themselves to be highly skilled fighters, are allowed, through invite only, to join the live steal faction of the SCA. Because.. again... the primary goal is to ensure that all persons use these weapons safely and do not seriously harm one another, until they are trained in their ability to wield the weapons properly, by becoming a Knight, or something similar within the other factions of live combat.
--continued --
Kingdom limitations:
Each Kingdom is entitled to change the base rules within a set margin of specifications so long as they can prove through scientific means that their changes will be safer over all for the players in the group who engage in the combat settings and events. Most Kingdoms, follow a general guideline establish by SCA corporate itself, that all MUST comply to. From there each Kingdom may add to the rules or alter with proof, that their alteration is more period and scientifically accurate as well as well documented; while still sustaining that key factor of being 100% safe for the persons involved, within the obvious limitations of any physical sport, or combat system. This is because any person on a field list who IS authorized, may not entirely be the most skilled at the use of that weapon in question and while authorized as being "Generally" safe with the use of the weapon, may for what ever reason in question make a mistake and do something that could be life threatening, or highly dangerous in the process of using said weapon. Thus each Kingdom is granted the ability to "adjust" the rules of their kingdom within a set margin of reason.
Combat system:
The Combat system is not 100% "Period accurate" for a very key reason, that had you actually taken the time to learn, study, and read up on the matter though any of the dozens of sites on this topic, such as oh...
www.sca.org
you'd have known that the combat system is designed to "simulate" a combat setting of Chivalry, where all members operate on the "Honor" system of combat. Meaning that unlike your extreme over simplification about "simply touching" the opponent's body with the wooden weapon, that is so very seriously not the case when you watch your own video in which fighters are swinging full force like a disjointed Angry Jedi, hopping to chop down a mad mob of Sith. The combat system operates on a multi tiered structure which I will be happy to explain to you, as you clearly did not listen to any instruction and more than likely got pissed off that they made you strike a tree or a Pale for 3 hours a training session, instead of getting out into the meat of the list and showing your mad "Wu tang" skills as a talented fighter. The reason why I speculate this? Your complete and total lack of knowledge as to how all of this operates, ist system and intended amount of applied force, weapon structure and reasoning behind why we do what we do. Its clear to me, and most of the SCA people commenting on here, that you have absolutely NO clue as to what your talking about. But here, let me educate you:
Kill - Kills operate on a hit location bases of strikes combat, and draw cut, piercing cut, and "chopping cut" attacks using the entire body as a target above the knees. A successful "Kill" happens when ever a person either is hit with enough force between 100lbs of direct force pressure to 500lbs of direct force pressure, to where the wearer of the armor can "feel" the impact of the strike in question. A "Kill is anytime a person either gets hit in the head directly, in either a stabbing or chopping motion, or hit twice in the torso, upper and lower combined, or has had all their limbs removed, and can not legally "fight" any further. Such as hitting both arms.
Hit location - For heavy combat there are only 6 hit locations that any fighter must protect and or target. A single blow to the head, one to two blows to the torso, (Two lower abdominal areas, or 1 blow to the upper area), The arms, upon which the fighter losses that subsequent arm, and the legs above the knee, and must either hobble to move, if they have lost one leg, or drop to their knees.
Impact control - This is the most important thing in the SCA. While its highly important for accuracy and being able to hit your target with enough force by which they "Feel" the impact within the armor; You must also do it with enough finesse that you don't break their hands, armor or body in the process. Something that is repeatedly taught at most Fighter practices to ensure that you don't injure the other players, as swinging a big thick wooden blunt force object at an average speed of 100 MPH, CAN shatter bones from the sheer kinetic force of an average 3 foot long dense wooden object being swung at a very fast speed, with in most cases a counter weight at the pummel, to allow for accurate weapon balance, and strike force. When combining all of these physics, its highly important that people control their striking movements and not treat this as just any old Bludgeon weapon. Within the SCA, we have special Rubber and safety impact foam tips that attach to the Wooden body of the weapon to signify different styles of weapons. Including Axe heads, stabbing tips, and even in some cases, special "Halberd" style "cutting" edges. The only exception to all of this, is the entire weapon MUST by society standard weigh no more than 1lb per foot of length.
"Authorizing" - When ANY person starts heavy fighting with SCA they are REQUIRED to start with what is known as "Sword and board". Meaning that they must first train with a standard "sword" of up to and between 28 inches, to 42 inches and then train using that weapon combination at a "Fighter practice" until either a Heavy Marshal, or a "Master of Arms"/ "Sage" (MOA, not to be confused with AOA, see below), decides they are ready to "Authorize" within that weapon type. Once that person is given the "go-ahead' they then must attend a Baronial level event and test their knowledge and skill set and safe and proper use of said weapon. If they prove that they can successfully use that weapon combination, then and only then may they freely use it in any melee, tourney, or event. Each weapon type, combat system, and style of fighting MUST be "Authorized" prior to being allowed to "legally" use it openly within the SCA as a whole.
Peerage titles:
Yomen - A very basic baronial level award. Used typically as a "welcome to the SCA, please stick around"
AOA - "Award of Arms" - A Kingdom level and Society level award, Used to signify to all members of the Kingdom and region at large that said person is a recognized and respect member of the "Society" and has shown through merit of personality to be a person of honor and chivalry, and allowed to openly brandish their edged weapons in public without typically any person questioning their intent.
"Knight"/ Bronze Ring - A fighting based position of recognition, in which a person has been "Squired" by another heavy fighter because they have proven through skill and dedication to the art of "fighting" within the SCA. Also sometimes referred to as a "Bronze ring" within the light fighters. Thought he Bronze ring, is slightly different in that only a limited number of persons per Kingdom may hold at any time a "Bronze ring". To obtain said bronze ring, a person must request a duel with the current holder of the ring and best them in armed combat.
(Wears a white belt or white sash)
Marshal - A highly trained fighter, who removes their armor and stands on the side line of any combat list, looking for any person who violates the minimum safety requirements, or may have gotten injured in the course of a combat. Their role operates as both a on the site first response medical staff, as well as a referee. Each Marshal type, specializes in a specific type of Armed combat.
(Typically wears an "Orange" belt or Sash or has a 3 to 6 foot checkered pole in hand, which is used to get fighters attention, and keep their distance from the armed combat. )
MOA / Sage - "Master of Arms" - A kingdom level award, where a person who has Authorized in every "known" heavy weapons technique available as well as has been Authorized as a Certified Marshal for each of those weapon types, Signifying them, as a True "Master" of all known weapons within that Kingdom. When established as an MOA, in most cases, said person MUST be a Knight prior to be granted that award, and thus must also swear an oath of fealty to the Kingdom in question. A Sage, is a person granted an MOA who instead swears the oath to the Society itself and not a specific King, or Kingdom. Often a Sage is also an unknighted Heavy fighter.
(Typically wears a "Red" belt or Sash)
Pelican - Extremely rare, and one of the hardest titles to establish. Usually takes on average about 10 years at least under the direct supervision and instruction of another Pelican. A Pelican is one of the most respected Peerages because these people are the people that run the event behind the scenes. they dedicate their role within society to run the events, handle security, operations, finances, and all other matters that sustain the fluid functionality of the event at large.
(Typically wears a "Blue" belt or Sash)
Laurel - A person who has proven to the society at large within their Kingdom and Barony to be either a highly skilled artist, Historian, or researcher that can back up their historical A&S findings with actual proven documented facts by no less than 3 recognized historians, or in the case of Scientific research for the safety of arms types within the Kingdom, proven field tested applications and use of said combat system type , within a safe and controlled setting, where the weapon variance within the society will not pose a threat to the general safety of its members.
(Typically wears a "Yellow" belt or Sash)
"Heraldic Device" - An individuals personal and federally recognized Coat of arms that is a registered alias and trademark of that persons "Persona" within the SCA and the United States at large.
--continued--
Officers:
These are persons who are voted into position within the society whom have proven to the society to be viable candidates to run different aspects of the internal operations of the 501 C -3 organization that is, the SCA. Every tier of operation within the entire organization, has different types of officer roles, that are given 16th century roles and titles, based on the level of operation that the society has established within that region or location. Starting with a simple "Shire/ Canton" - Both of which requires at least 5 fully registered members to be in that given location that operate as the locations operating body. Consisting of a Sénéchal, (Operating tier President), Herald (Operations tier reporter), and an "Axe checker" (Operations treasurer). Additionally there must be 2 additional persons in that location that are standard members. The next tier of established peerage is what is called a "Landed Barional", which has no less than 30 active member in the group, and must consist of the 3 prior officer roles, in addition to a voted in Baron/ Baroness, Châtelaine (Handles hospitality), at least 1 fighting marshal if the group wishes to hold "Fighting Practice", and a few other roles I can't remember at this time, as its been over 10 years since I last held an officer role. The next tier is a Principality with is usually roughly 50 to 75 members, though I have seen them as high as 99 members, and finally a "Kingdom", which has an awarded "King and queen", who achieve that title by winning a "Crown Tourney", a heavy fighting event held every 6 months, and sustained only for a rein of 6 months, and must be sustained by winning the tourney every 6 months to retain the title of "King", which changes in title every time the said person wins the title role. King/ Unlanded Baron, Duke, and many others that I have long since forgotten.
So.. the problem here, is that again you very clearly flagrantly and rather disrespectfully, didn't do your homework on this organization. The people running the organization and events do not run it through a position of combat might. They operate through a democratic system of vote and are voted into different positions of power every 2 to 4 years, based on the populace and their desire to see said person sustain said role. Only the title of "King/ Queen" and "Prince/ Princess" which is better seen as National "President"/ "Vice president"" type role is fought for in combat. But that role has limited power, and may only make "Kingdom" level executive decisions and awards to persons who have earned those titles and positions. They may also at their peerage, publicly "Ban" a person that has violated the rules of the society, but only after the other cabinet members of the Kingdom level peerage, have voted on that decision and make a democratic decision on the matter at hand. Thus the "King/ Queen" is less the "Ruler" of the "Kingdom" and more a political figure head, granted the power to make specific executive decision, during their short term of rule. Something that had you bothered to actually research this faction the main site of www.sca.org, you would have known as most of what I have written in extensive detail, IS located on that main site and covers a great deal more on this topic than you are clearly willing to research. Proving further, that you had a short, all be it bad experience, and automatically "Assumed" everything you have falsely stated about this 50 year old organization, based on your "Observations" as a professional Mid-evil Historian, who clearly failed to actually do the research on the target topic at hand, and very erroneously spouted off about your clearly incorrect knowledge on an organization that more than likely created your precious Hema, as those who do the research often find that most parts of "Geek" culture were influenced by non other than the SCA. Including Gary Gigax. Especially when you consider that Miriam Zimmer Bradly, Poppy Z-brite, Michael Longcore, Mercadies Lackey, and so many many many more all helped shaped this organization into what it is today.
Your knowledge is extremely flawed, and I refuse to award you the title of "Sir" in this as you lack all professional courtesy to do your homework properly on this very topic as your routinely attack a 50 year old organization, and fail time and time again in your video presented above, to show a single piece of credible evidence to support your grievous claims, all because you briefly "Felt" the organization was not for you, but could not be bothered to take the actual time to research the group and verify that it was in fact the group that put a bad taste in your mouth, and not your own presumed ego, arrogance, and outright ignorance about how this seasoned organization actually operates, the actual level of training that actually does go into the various forms of heavy combat fighting, and most importantly your over all take away from the group, when its more than clear to any actual member that you have no flipping clue what your talking about, as not once, did you mention "Fighter practice", the initial Barony that you had your sour experience, or even the "Pale", or any other "Key" aspect that would show an actual member that you not only paid attention to what you were being told, but also that you did... again... your homework on the subject. Its almost like hating DnD because you saw one book of the game, but never bothered to actually play it, then came across Blizzard WOW and decided that WOW was more akin to your presumptions of what a true Fantasy should be, based on your education, and then decided to rip into DnD telling people how its Cyberpunk technology and laser pistols and character evolution based on their blood really puts a sour taste in your mouth. All the while touting how great your system that YOU like is, and how DnD needs to be more like WOW, even though you clearly have never played it. But hey, your an Internet icon right? so we must all respect your ignorant knowledge of a 50 year old organization, that you clearly knew nothing about, but OH so arrogantly attack through your self entitled elitism.
Thanks... for your ignorance input.
OMG! I thought I was the only one who had this opinion about the SCA. I too, have nothing against SCA. I think a lot of reenacting groups could benefit from following a lot of SCA's philosophies of inclusion. I've seen too many groups that will cry about no one "being interested in history" and then turn around and pick on someone for having silver painted plastic buttons. Well, gee, maybe if you didn't bully people, you would have people join you. Borrowing from Divinci Code, no one hates history. They just hate their own. And when they have a bad history with historical groups, they don't want to join and nor should they. I've had several bad run ins with bad groups that nearly forced me out of reenacting altogether. It did force me to go solo.
But I do not like SCA fighthing. I've been in Martial Arts for 25 years. My first day of SCA was not impressive. They just smacked people around and I was very confused about that. Also, you can't preach safety from your mouth, and then turn around and pull whatever out of your ass and call that a technique. Bad technique and safety are oil and water. They don't go together. You are much, much safer with a steel edged blade and no armor, but good techniques, then you are fully armored a rittan sword and bad techniques. And there's something about when you have a lot of "safety" it makes people think it's okay to hit hard and it really isn't. (Queue the SCA fanatics "yOu DoN'T UnDErStand. It IsN't sUPposED tO bE AcCuRAte." So, in other words you agree with me that it is crap... It maybe fun crap, but it's still crap.)
I went to a HEMA school for my first class there and it was night and day compared to SCA. They did nothing but emphasize good techniques. Being aware of the blade and stepping and slashing. While I don't have the most technically advanced teacher in the world (he's a young guy), he's certainly has a good foundation.
Also, I want to state that there is no way to get 100% combat accurate in anything. Every single martial art falls short in this aspect, because when it comes down to it, you're really not actually trying to kill that person.
Anachronism... It's in the bloody name...
I wanted to comment on this some vids ago. Your opinion on SCA is very well understandable. Its neither historical nor recreation of fighting. Its a game just as the fullcontact sport of IMCF and HMBIA (Battle of the nations) is a sport (which is not historically accurate aswell btw).
Those are perfectly fine in their own right. And surely fun, but not the thing for me though ^^ Im more into living history and HEMA. Azincourt 2015 was a blast !!
Two questions:
Do you have a Facebook presence ?
Does the SCA really try to recreate history ? Doesnt look like it ^^ I always thought it was some kind of fantasy.
The SCA on their website say they focus on re-creating: www.sca.org
They include a but of fantasy, in they they make up their own characters, but they are supposed to be doing things historically accurate.
I technically have a Facebook presence with my channel, but I don't bother updating it. I choose to just focus on RUclips... perhaps I should focus more on getting my Facebook page updated: facebook.com/MedievalReview/
Good reminder... thanks!
+Medieval Review I will contact you there thanks :)
I dont really follow you in your presentation... I dont think there is anything out there that represents what it really was like back then... even the swords we have today have a element of modern technology in them... I would disagree that Hema has more historical accuracy than SCA just another element... if you are talking sword play.. then sure Hema has an advantage.. But if we are discussing armor... SCA wins imo... but I do see your video comes down to what you find value in and what I find value in. At the very end of the day.,.. sure SCA has some inaccuracies... but.. that said...SCA has one of the largest groups of medieval re-enactors in the US and that means more people that have a place to encourage their love of history... where there is a starting point there is a passion point... and from that passion point breeds interest in further historical accuracy... many long time SCAdians further refine their armor and kit every year with each thing they learn to further increase historical accuracy... but we all have to start somewhere and the SCA as it is in a whole accomplishes that very well.
You call this a formation?!
I had the same reaction you had toward the heavy armor. It just isn't realistic. The free for all battles can get ridiculous. I have wondered what would happen if a group of the SCA players were to practice some disciplined formations and battle tactics would fare, as in the Romans vs the Gauls.
When it happens, those groups become very deadly on the list. See "Pennsic war" and listen for the battle regiment called the "Two Chucks". The problem returns to the fact that the SCA is dominantly a Hobbyist activity, with only a set percentage of the organization being dedicated to learning things right. Which on average has about 40% of its members and fighters at any given time not being dedicated to actually learning how to fight. But when you do have any group, even a house doing it... its way different.
I left cause I got sick of their attitude. Rude and with massive egos. Stick fighting is not real combat.
In as much as I enjoy this video I can see the presenter here has missed. Safety comes first in the SCA and everything else will fall into place. While we are not perfect we know what the flaws are in Historical Accuracy when it comes to the SCA LOL
Yeah, when I spar with SCA people, they don't seem to understand that a "good" blow with a bladed weapon against armor and helmet is pretty pointless. I'm trying to go for the gaps in the armor with a thrust and they're busy swinging bladed weapons like bludgeoning weapons. Recently, during a friendly bout, I had tripped and fallen to the ground, but I took the guy down with me. I had his...pole sword/glaive pinned under me, stopping him from using it, when I got to my knees he started using it as a saw against my gut, but I was wearing cloth. I seriously doubt using a glaive or polesword like that would be sufficient to saw through it enough to be effective, without full control of the weapon (especially if I had at least an arming jacket or gambeson). If I had lamellar, maille, or plate it wouldn't have done anything at all. About the only time, in my estimation, that I was "killed" was when a good thrust was made, to least protective parts of my body, but even then it's no guarantee of a kill, realistically speaking. I didn't have a helmet and most of the blows to the head would have been deadly, or at least disorienting, concussive, wounding.
The gear is just for persona and safety, they fight like they don't wear armor.
I once knocked out a much larger man than myself right though his ten pound helm with nothing but a rattan stick so you can not assume a blow into a helm with a steel weapon would be pointless.
Wow sounds like jealousy? Want historically accurate leave edge and draw first blood then.
They probably don't concern themselves with the specifics of thrusts and chain mail, blunt and plate, blade and cloth, etc.
To address your specific point about sword blows being ineffective against plate armor I had the overall opinion that SCA heavy weapons fighters believe the sword would cut through plate armor because the metal used in medieval times was believed to be of an inferior type. In my opinion only a downward blow into the very top of a helm at full force could have cut through a helm even if the metal was inferior to modern materials. Most of the blows counted as kills in SCA fighting with their rattan swords were what they called "snap" shots. The standard SCA snap blow comes in from a horizontal angle and has significantly less force than a full downward strike however it can still land with enough force to dent a 14 gauge helm. There is no way to tell what would have knocked someone out through the helm even if the blade did not cut through anything.
No. It's because the armour you wear are for your own safety, comfort, and cosmetics. What you see people wearing is a "skin" in a sense that represents the protective equivalent of a mid-status 9th-10th century Norman knight or footman. Low quality metallurgy mail, open face helm with a nasal, like you see on the Bayeux tapestry.
I agree with you ; I study FMA and I went up against a person who was a part of the SCA and his style of fighting is just come at you with every thing he has and I was able to beat him just by working angles. SCA is cool looking but would not work in real melee combat. I am not downing the SCA I just don't think it is very practical as a Martial Art.
I can tell you were not fighting against a very good SCA fighter. For one thing many SCA fighters also have training in martial arts and some have black belts. I looked into FMA and was not impressed. In fact I sparred with an FMA teacher with gear on and beat him easily.
@@noloferratus depends on what style of FMA you’re fighting, there are more sport oriented ones, but if you go against someone from a group called the dog brothers, or fight against someone who does pekiti tirsia kali which is taught to military, I feel like your average Filipino martial arts practitioner from the prior mentioned would give any sca fighter a run for their money especially if you use their rules which include grappling, disarms, and ground fighting.
Hoplites, Romans, and what have you, and they speak of historical accuracy. Mercy please
Do to the fact that armor really does nothing to benefit you in fighting you see many people wearing leather and calling it historically accurate, in my experience.
+Floyd Keim III If armour did not benefit you in combat, how come armour developed like it did in the medieval ages?
And people are generally lazy to research anything when it comes to history.
They believe what the media tells them, and what they're told from video games.
Which explains there are masses of people who thinks leather was used for armour, rather than tying the actualy iron or steel armour pieces together.
If it's about people in the SCA using leather as armour because they're apparently recreating lightsaber fights, then yes, it would "make sense" to use the lightest "heavy" armour, historical accurate or not.
And about the historical aspect.
Most of the SCA "fighters" wouldnt stand a chance against someone who's a decent HEMA practitioner.
SCA fighters has a tendency to telegraph their strikes, and dont even get me started about how a rounded stick doesnt teach you edge alignment or give you feedback like a sharp or blunted steel blade does.
@@Bru741iX Lol, HEMA started to get popular because of guys like the video being A) shit heavy fighters and B) afraid to get hurt.
They join the SCA, try Heavy, get dominated and smashed, run to HEMA to hide behind their gentle touch point virtual non-contact dancy-dance "sparring" because "muh historical accuracies".
HEMA point touches don't even come close to the necessary force of an SCA hit.
You're using a sword, not a lightsaber HEMA...
Lol
This guy has no idea what SCA combat is like. Dont bother.
Lol. You said “real” and the SCA in the same sentence.
Frankly I've seen better LARP battles. Both in combat style and in gear / clothes.
But actually the SCA is a LARP group also it's just that they don't admit it.
Please stop say Uhmm all The time! Like your vids alot but i just cant stand hearing The Uhmm. NO ofence.
+Daniel Skogsberg It's non-rehearsed stream of thought discussion, what do you expect?
+ARR0WMANC3R Its in every video...
Then don't watch it
yeah man, but US americans are also wholeheartedly proud of their military service although us is biggest agressor since ww2..so im surprised ur surprised :)