The idea of Yoko Shimomura getting excited when performing a Shoryuken is too wholesome. I love this woman for creating the soundtracks of both my childhood and adulthood and had a great time meeting her last year at AnimeNYC and having her sign my SF 30th anniversary collection copy
You said it perfectly! It's little considerations like this that I don't think are considered when folks complain about the sort of things they do when it comes to input accessibility...and this is coming from someone who prefers classic to modern controls. I think it's important for people other than pros to be able to enjoy fighting games!
@Evilriku13 what bruh 😭 I would sincerely hope game developers, even composers, would actually play games lol. that's why her music is so good, because she actually plays games and knows how to make the best music for it.
It's so cool to see design analysis from the man himself. So, the chosen inputs do serve a purpose to the Risk VS Reward factor, not just random sets of buttons. Now to analysis the Quarter Circle Forward motion.
Yeah, although I understand that motion inputs are a way to balance special/super moves, I never thought that this much indepth analysis towards one motion. His channel has really changed how I approach analysis in general, and I hope he'll be making content for 10 years at least
For the most part it's a similar thought process, that you need to drop tour guard to attack. On the other hand, think about a 360 motion for a command grab from a slower character like Zangief; the input overlaps with guard on a few frames, meaning a character like Zangief who is a big target who has a harder time getting in doesn't need to commit as much as a reward for finally getting within grab range.
Guile's moveset is in direct opposition to these principles since he's a zoner/camper. He's rewarded for holding the stick back the whole time, which funnily enough is also what his assist trophy does in Ult
@@remixtheidiot5771My guess is Piston Takahashi, the developer of Street Fighter 1 that went to SNK to create fighting games there. I think he always wanted it so the more difficult the motion, the stronger and more rewarding the special move. It's the very essence of the term, desperation move, even. However, if it were easy to do, it would be as easy as kicking and punching. So, balance-wise, it shouldn't be so strong. But that's just my guess. Look up Piston Takahashi and his works. Maybe the answer is there
I think it's also worth noting that, in games where you block by holding back at least, you're put in a decision point when you see the opponent jump at you. You could just block, but that puts you in a situation where you have to guess the opponent's next move (strike or throw) to avoid damage. Or you could trust in your ability to input shoryuken in time for guaranteed invulnerability against the opponent's jump attack. Or you could use a normal attack that aims upward but lacks invulnerability and just hope you attacked early enough to win the exchange. Having all these small decisions to make is one of the things that makes fighting games so interesting, and why even the best players in the world can make the wrong decision in a stressful situation sometimes.
This move is legendary for a reason... even people who haven't played Street Fighter before (but are at least slightly familiar with gaming culture) are likely to know about it in some capacity! It's also fun to watch Sakurai just nerd out sometimes.
In discussions about whether motion inputs are 'outdated' or not, people tend to gloss over the fact that they're mad fun to perform once you get the feel for them.
I've recently seen the sentiment that motion inputs are antiquated and outdated and that tehre is no reason to keep them in fighting games, so I'm happy to see someone with a big casual audience explain to that crowd why one of the more iconic inputs is the way that it is.
I can’t claim to be knowledgeable enough to have a solid opinion on this, but I do think it’s valuable to recognize that something can be clever and valuable, but not worth hanging on to. There are other ways to encourage risk vs reward, ideally without the increased barrier to entry that motion inputs can create. In a way, the popularity of highly competitive fighting games can sometimes hurt fighting games as a whole, by creating the impression that you NEED to be able to know all the moves and combos in order to play the game and have fun.
To be frank, it's just that people don't want to put like 5 mins of effort to learn a quarter circle motion. It's really easy to pull off even when you start fighting games. People just want it to be the same way as other games because they're familiar to it regardless of what the motion input's role is.
@@maxmin2434 Quater-circles are relatively easy (with a D-pad), but for someone who's never done a command input in their life it'll probably take at least a few hours of play to get reasonably consistent with it. Also many new players don't realize that D-pad is easier and will be trying to do it on an analog stick. Shoryuken input on the other hand is WAY harder to be consistent with, and this varies a lot by how strict the game is with its inputs. It can take quite a lot of practice to consistently DP instead of accidentally quarter-circling.
I actually never thought the "risk vs. reward" aspect of the Shoryuken motion, so this is an interesting thing to mention already! It just goes to show how much people had been using it nowadays.
now THIS is how you have a discussion about game design. a singular example is broken down into the philosophies behind it and the applications of it in both theory and practice, as well as how a seasoned designer has interacted with the feature in both their own and others' projects. thank you, sakurai!
In fighting games, you block attacks by holding back, Shoryuken is a move that uses forward, down and down forward, 3 directions that do not allow you to block, this means that Shoryuken is a move you have to do with confidence in what you're doing. You know you're going to anti-air, reversal, counter a move successfully or you're going to be open to a punish. In contrast, Guile's Flash Kick hold down, up, can also be performed holding down back, up, which gives him a very defensive fighting style since almost all his moves allow him to be in block, to beat him you have to make him guess whether to block standing or crouching, which affects the moves he can do. However fighting games are one of the hardest genres of gaming not because of inputs, but the mind games you have to play to force or go around your opponents inputs. At a high level, your opponent isn't going to drop inputs, you don't count on them dropping, you force or bait them to choose inputs in your favour. It's an extremely high speed game of chess and rock paper scissors at the same time.
Fighting games are hard because of the high-speed mind games *combined* with the execution barrier of inputs. There's plenty of people who can do motion inputs consistently in training, but mess them up when they're in the heat of battle. There's also people who never drop an input, but are just bad at reading their opponent and choosing their moves. And there's people who are great at figuring out what to do but can't pull off the inputs. Yes at the top level no one drops their inputs, but 90% of people are not at that level.
@@ZanadorYou don't need to be a top level player just to not drop inputs. I can't speak for SF but in Strive at least, it's pretty uncommon for even the average ranked players to drop more than 1 input per match. It takes getting used to it, yes, but the reward of finally joining the big boys' club is more than worth it.
As you said, Guile's charge moves give him excelent defensive game, at the cost of movility and sometimes combos. To deal with this, charge characters usually have variant button attacks ejich are done by holding back/foward amd attacking, like guile's knee bazooka which makes him jump foward, and jis Sobat kick backwards. Tjis allows him to move while not sacrificing his charge Many other charge characters have these unique normal attacks: Ash Crimson, Charlie Nash, Remy, Kain R. Heidern, etc.
@@ZanadorI see your point but I would say the difficulty in inputs isn’t ALWAYS true. A game like street fighter 4(which had no buffer and a lot of 1-frame combos) or KOF XV(which has complicated motion inputs) have this issue far more than a game like GGST. Plus now with street fighter 6, you can use modern controls to lose 1-2 command normals in exchange for guaranteed consistency
I'm not very familiar with fighting games much outside Super Smash Bros., so the breakdown of what makes the Shoryuken so significant was greatly appreciated.
Let it be known that even Sakurai, the man that gave us the "not fighting game" understands the nuance of motion inputs and that their value isn't just because of "legacy".
I never fully appreciated the risk vs reward of this stick input combination until this video. This was an excellent explainer for a move I've long taken for granted
Legit just a great discussion of how motion inputs have a genuine function beside "be hard" or "feel good" (though he could've brought up that it does feel good lol) I wonder if Sakurai will ever touch on motion inputs, that'd be cool I think.
@@AirLancer Games that have one button inputs do tend to take quite a few considerations to accomodate at least. Hybrid games tend to have a down sides, be it granblue's cooldowns or SF6's restrictions and lesser flexibility. (Though SF6's is definitely not perfect, especially due to 1 button supers that no amount of reduced invulnerability or damage makes them not stupid) And games entirely made around one button inputs are an entirely different experience pretty much, they tend to shift the focus, upsides and downsides of special moves in accordance to what doing them instantly entails.
Turns out that fighting game's giant, esoteric move lists aren't just to gatekeep casuals. I'm not into Street Fighter, but I've heard people are seeing it's effects in real time, with even pros using simplified inputs in SF6 just because of how powerful it can be to throw out certain moves without wiggling your stick around (be it the time it takes to do so, or the unfavorable stick positions as Sakurai explained) Another example of this is Guile's charge motions informing his defensive playstyle; he'd want to be crouching and holding back to have a Sonic Boom and Flash Kick at the ready. When you remove that limitation he just goes ham and plays completely different Of course, that isn't to say that there's a right or wrong way to do it. You'd simply want to think how'd your move would look without wiggling the stick and all its implications.
@@TheRealBatabii frame perfect timing. like in tekken in order to perform the eletric wind god fist or EWGF for short you need 1 frame perfect timing to pull it off, cause otherwise you pull normal wind god fist.
@@TheRealBatabii It's the Neutral input. The more detail explanation is that it means to let go of the stick for a split second to let it go back to neutral position before executing the rest of the input.
And then Demitri shows up in Vampire Savior with a *reverse* shoryuken input for Midnight Bliss. Also interesting that he showed P4A, since Yu's uppercut is only done by just pressing 2 buttons at the same time.
Akuma has reverse DP motion too.... And lets not forget the raging demon motion or raging storm motion Tho, the raging demon is like that to prevent you from using at point blank, so its still immediate but reactable
@@a_creatorsstuff17You can still mask it in other inputs if you're fast enough, so you can make it very hard to react to. It doesn't combo from much, so pros rarely use it and stick with the other supers, however.
@@a_creatorsstuff17I feel the Raging Demon is more of a super balanced around the attack itself being genuinely harder to do instead, because people HAVE found ways to completely negate the visual tell of a raging demon
DPs in P4A have an extra penalty in exchange for the simpler input (it inflicts a bit of self-damage as recoverable HP), which is a nice touch not just for balancing purposes, but also a clever nod to how skills work in MegaTen as a whole.
BEST INTRO AND OUTRO. I'm so happy to hear Sakurai-San talk about command inputs. Not only does it work really well in terms and riskk and reward but it feels sooo satisfying to land because of the more complex input
Glad to see Sakurai is growing into his final form, a Japanese FGC content creator who only talks about niche topics instead of just talking about Smash exclusively. It's honestly all I ever wanted.
In some kirby games, if you do the hadouken motion with the fighter ability you automatically throw a medium charge focus blast without having to charge it
I find fascinating how in the early nineties “push and pull” mechanics were already there; since then they have needed to be further enhanced & complicated to keep players guessing. Now almost every system in a game has to have them!
Was kind of fun that they threw this and the Hadouken in Mega Man X. I always struggled with pulling off the input commands when I was a kid, but now I can manage it somewhat reliably.
HOLY SHIT SAKURAI IS TALKING ABOUT FIGHTING GAMES And so much more succinctly than I could ever try to explain the brilliance of the specific motions (and I've tried)
one thing I find interesting to note, while Sakurai is correct in that the input directions DO put you in a vulnerable position, practiced hands can throw out this input in a fraction of a second thus minimizing the window you're left exposed. The real challenge then comes from learning to time the input to a characters wake-up animation to be able to use a Shoryuken style move on wake-up as a reversal ( a move/mechanic that means you're executing an attack on the very frame your wake-up animation ends) which can punish a carelessly greedy opponent trying to attack or set up an attack while you're getting up ( in fighting game circles the term used for this is Okizeme). Of course as was pointed out the move used this way still carries a great deal of risk because if you miss or get blocked, you're once again wide open, and more than likely going to end up in another combo and knocked down again.
What a great anecdote about Yoko Shimamura. This should really go without saying, but it proves how important people can be to games without the hyper-fixation on "skill".
I remember when I was learning basic fighting game strat as a kid, a bunch of the guides I found online didn't actually write out how to do a Shoryuken input, they'd just write "DP." It was such a ubiquitous concept that nobody thought they needed to actually explain how to do a DP input. Just kind of amusing in hindsight.
I really like this video, the basics of Shoryuken and how it still applies to modern design. SF2 being one of the core games that brought about fighting games. Also thumbs up just for Sakurai performing a shoryuken. I hope Maximillian_Dood watches this! P.S. When I started playing SF 2 as a kid when it came out I played it at a friends house, they would whoop me good because they knew the moves better but I remember it pushed me to learn to do a Hadouken and Shoryuken myself through out the years. When I started to be able to do it flawlessly it was a real hallmark moment for me. To this day it still feels great to execute
Thank you for not overbuffing command!Shoryuken… Whenever I try this input in Smash, my character instead does a crouch attack, or a tilt attack, or a dash attack, or a smash attack, or a Hadouken, or a Tatsumaki…
While I'm not a traditional fighting game person, the Shoryuken is undoubtedly iconic. It's neat to have a video dedicated to it on this channel! Also, two moves from Sakurai's Street Fighter 6 DLC moveset just got shown off.
Lol 😆 I love watching Sakurai's channel. So fun, and you can learn alot more about games and the history behind them. The way he explains them is so awesome too, you get to watch him interact with other game developers playing games. So glad I subbed to his channel. This guy is an artist.
some of the greatest moves in gaming. I'm more of a Tiger/Tiger uppercut guy. I never did see the original SF in the wild as a kid. When I learned about its history it'd pretty crazy it even got a sequel, and one that changed gaming/arcades forever.
I've struggled for years to wrap my head around the shoryuken input. No explanation has really made it click in a way that I can do reliably. Somehow, Sakurai's works perfectly for my brain.
To be fair, Sakurai's explanation has been a thing that's understood by most avid fighting game players, especially the longer they play and learn. The problem is that, the games themselves never really explained it outright. It kinda trusts the player to put two and two together just from the motion of the inputs and the players' understanding that back = block and forward = not blocking, which can be a double-edged sword, especially when dealing with the casual audience.
Funny how, when showing examples of Shoryukens in other games, he showed Persona 4 Arena, a game that doesn't have any forward down down-forward inputs. The "Shoryuken" he showed was done by pressing 2 buttons at the same time.
It's a shoto move basically, even if you don't do the motion if you have a projectil, a spinning kick and a dragon punch, you're a shoto, believe it or not Armadon was a shoto in Primal Rage. Although a lot of characters had projectils Armadon had: Flying spikes, he leans forward and shoots spikes from his tail = projectil Hornication uppercut = he does a dragon punch with his nose horn = Dragon punch Spinning death, he turns into a ball and rolls across the screen = tatsu Mechanicwise they're all the same thing, even if their inputs are different.
@@raptros sure sure, but this video clearly puts heavy emphasis on the actual input, and the consequences thereof. So I just found it humorous that of all the potential examples to choose from, they chose one that didn't use the input.
What An Outstanding Introduction and Ending Outro To Start With Masahiro Sakurai. SHOYOUKEN!!!!!!!! and then camera break edit with the HADOKEN!!!! 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥 Nicely done with explaining everything about the Shoryuken Command in this today lesson video.
Oh My..! 😮 Don't mess with Master Sakurai, because he's Mastered real life Hadouken and Shoryuken! 🔥💪🏼 I really loved this video, excellent information and fun 💯👏🏻
I also feel the command is kind hard for being reverse of the hadouken, which flows nicely from one direction only, while the shoryuken need to "go back" so to say Also the story about Yoko Shimomura is too wholesome, love it
The first time i made a Shoryuken command was in Mega Man X2, when getting all the Armor parts, heart tanks and sub tanks and in the third stage of the Sigma/X-Hunters base getting the capsule with that final upgrade SHORYUKEN!!!
Its interesting to note the lengths/changes to these moves developers do when you take them off input. The developers tend to try and add nore drawbacks to compensate. He showed P4A for example, which doesnt use DP motion, and instead uses just 2 buttons at the same time (or just one if you use the shortcut). To compensate the move takes white health from you (recoverable over time, but instantly lost when hit), and puts you in Fatal Counter state if you get hit during recovery. They amped the punishments for it in order to keep its strengths when it lost the input factor for balancing.
The Shoryuken motion being associated to anti-air is mostly true for fighting games with high jumps. Tekken being slower and mostly grounded, to balance the fact that anti-air attacks are basically useless, completing the motion makes the Mishimas crouch dash, which adds the advantage of approaching the opponent while dodging high attacks. Different mechanics = different rewards!
The addition of having to return to neutral also makes the input feel completely different than a DP input. It's more like drawing a C than drawing a Z (unless you do a 13 frame PEWGF).
Hey there everybody. This is Sakurai. From Smash! Did you know? My favorite things are: Jumping into a shoryuken. Stale moves. Water without any water. The newest season of American Dad. Aaaaand rocks. See you in Kid Icarus 5 everybody!
Sakurai Shoryukens his audience twice and Hadoukens the camera, breaking it in the process. The Yoko Shimomura anecdote is a cute one. It means she probably had difficulties pulling off the Shoryuken in the original Street Fighter II. I had no idea of the invincibility at the start of the Shoryuken in the original SFII, or maybe I did but never really put attention to it. That explains the Invincibility in Smash when using the command version.
The big problem I have with the shoryuken in Smash is that you're forced to use the control stick and can't change to the dpad, which is my preference when playing other 2D fighters.
As a koF player, is so funny watching sakurai explain the DP motion so thoroughly when in KoF you can input shoryukens as half cirble back+foward+attack instead
I've been playing street fighter on and off for over 20 years (albeit very casually, and badly), but i still didn't know some of the inner mechanisms that Sakurai went over, like the Shoryuken having invincibility frames at the startup.
It's why it's often the go-to wakeup reversal move, although certain games give the Shoryuken's invincibilities some caveats. In Street Fighter 6 for instance, normal DPs are only invincible to aerial attacks, not grounded ones, so a wakeup normal DP will still lose to a well timed grounded meaty attack (an attack timed to hit you as soon as you get up), but will crush a jump in. EX DP on the other hand is fully invincible, and cuts through both aerial AND grounded attacks.
I think it's an incredible way to keep new players, one of the biggest reasons casuals drop fighting games is the difficulty of command inputs, if they can start off using weaker but far easier versions of those moves it will encourage them to keep playing long enough to pull off those moves properly and give them a sense of reward for having learned it
@@williamholtzclaw3029I don't really see how you can simplify the input any further. Usually characters have a normal button attack that acts like a poor man's version of the special attack anyway. Ryu's crouching fierce punch is a decent anti air uppercut but with no invincibility or anything.
There's little in gaming that is more internally rewarding than teaching yourself the muscle memory for doing a shoryuken. Going from "I know this exists" to "oh! I did it! Accidentally!" to "oh I see if I do this..." to being able to throw it out on reaction is something so amazing, I almost wish I could make myself forget fighting games and relearn them entirely. That joy is immense.
I see lots of people not into fighting games acting like that process of improvement is suffering, and it just baffles me. That progression through practice is part of why fighting games are so gratifying, and in a way it's wear the real progression in these games lie. In RPGs you see a level go up in game to mark your progression. In fighting games, YOU, in the real world, outside the game, become capable of doing things you weren't able to before.
Hell yeah cmd inputs! I love analyzing game design when it comes to fighting games. I wonder how this input compares to Akatsuki Blitzkampf’s/Under Night’s down down motion for shoryu
This is why I think motion inputs are so essential to fighting games like Street Fighter. The difficulty of executing the moves, combined with how vulnerable the motions make your character, are rewarded with super cool, strong moves. You can still win matches without special moves as long as you know your basics, so not being able to perform the Shoryuken isn't an excuse. Heck, I still struggle with it too.
It also makes it so that as you get better at doing the input, the move literally gets better as the faster you can input the command, the faster it comes out. It's like learning a technique in real martial arts, or less analogously, a musical instrument. You start off not being able to do it all that well, but as you practice and get better at doing it, the resulting technique is better than when you started.
Hearing him talk about how shoryu would have been stronger but they toned it down for casual players makes me really want to see sakurai direct a game targeted at competitive players again. If the last time he did it he made a game that's still played competitively over 20 years later it would be amazing to see what could happen now with all these extra years of experience (and hopefully more than 13 months of dev time)
One thing that wasn't talked about much is the input overlap between commands, which adds to the risk of the movement - if your inputs aren't clean, you can easily overshoot and perform a Hadoken instead. I wonder if this was caused because of the limitations of the special input system being reliant on the stick, or if the fuzziness of the inputs was an intentional design choice to, again, make the Shoryuken riskier to perform.
I think in a game like Smash Bros, command inputs are a bit too difficult where movement is so fast and important, so i appreciate the restraint in making the command Shoryuken less effective, since the core game doesnt really work with it too much. Also, i was completely unaware of the inputs factoring into the risk factor of the move, great video!
Fast mobility may be one factor, but there are 2 other important ones; first of all, much of the Smash playerbase that don't play other fighters won't be familiar or proficient with motion inputs-but even more so, playing fighting games on an analog stick is generally not recommended, and you'll likely have a MUCH easier time pulling of a DP (Shoryuken) motion on the D-pad. Since you can't use the D-pad for movement in Smash, the best way to input that command on gamepad isn't available.
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The idea of Yoko Shimomura getting excited when performing a Shoryuken is too wholesome. I love this woman for creating the soundtracks of both my childhood and adulthood and had a great time meeting her last year at AnimeNYC and having her sign my SF 30th anniversary collection copy
You said it perfectly! It's little considerations like this that I don't think are considered when folks complain about the sort of things they do when it comes to input accessibility...and this is coming from someone who prefers classic to modern controls. I think it's important for people other than pros to be able to enjoy fighting games!
didn't even think she would play videogames herself just because she works in that industry xD
@Evilriku13 what bruh 😭 I would sincerely hope game developers, even composers, would actually play games lol. that's why her music is so good, because she actually plays games and knows how to make the best music for it.
Sakurai is so powerful that he can break his camera with his Hadouken and still record a whole episode with it
Bcoz the cameraman never dies, that's why.
@@KaoRYuushaSakurai is Sonic and the cameraman is Tails
the restraint has more strength than raw display of power alone
I never thought I’d see Masahiro Sakurai preform a Shoryuken in real life but here we are.
Or the hadoken
This is our timeline now
He's a game dev after all.
You doubted the master?
I'm just glad he uses his powers for good and doesn't walk the path of the Satsui no Hado!
Can you imagine how powerful Oni Sakurai would be! 😂
It's so cool to see design analysis from the man himself.
So, the chosen inputs do serve a purpose to the Risk VS Reward factor, not just random sets of buttons.
Now to analysis the Quarter Circle Forward motion.
Yeah, although I understand that motion inputs are a way to balance special/super moves, I never thought that this much indepth analysis towards one motion. His channel has really changed how I approach analysis in general, and I hope he'll be making content for 10 years at least
For the most part it's a similar thought process, that you need to drop tour guard to attack.
On the other hand, think about a 360 motion for a command grab from a slower character like Zangief; the input overlaps with guard on a few frames, meaning a character like Zangief who is a big target who has a harder time getting in doesn't need to commit as much as a reward for finally getting within grab range.
how about the prezel motion?!
who came up with it, and why?!?!
Guile's moveset is in direct opposition to these principles since he's a zoner/camper. He's rewarded for holding the stick back the whole time, which funnily enough is also what his assist trophy does in Ult
@@remixtheidiot5771My guess is Piston Takahashi, the developer of Street Fighter 1 that went to SNK to create fighting games there. I think he always wanted it so the more difficult the motion, the stronger and more rewarding the special move. It's the very essence of the term, desperation move, even. However, if it were easy to do, it would be as easy as kicking and punching. So, balance-wise, it shouldn't be so strong. But that's just my guess. Look up Piston Takahashi and his works. Maybe the answer is there
I think it's also worth noting that, in games where you block by holding back at least, you're put in a decision point when you see the opponent jump at you. You could just block, but that puts you in a situation where you have to guess the opponent's next move (strike or throw) to avoid damage. Or you could trust in your ability to input shoryuken in time for guaranteed invulnerability against the opponent's jump attack. Or you could use a normal attack that aims upward but lacks invulnerability and just hope you attacked early enough to win the exchange.
Having all these small decisions to make is one of the things that makes fighting games so interesting, and why even the best players in the world can make the wrong decision in a stressful situation sometimes.
That or you brainfart in the heat of the moment and do none of those options
This move is legendary for a reason... even people who haven't played Street Fighter before (but are at least slightly familiar with gaming culture) are likely to know about it in some capacity!
It's also fun to watch Sakurai just nerd out sometimes.
Sakurai know how to pull it off and this is sweet
In discussions about whether motion inputs are 'outdated' or not, people tend to gloss over the fact that they're mad fun to perform once you get the feel for them.
The joys of pulling off a pretzel motion.
The beautiful feeling of doing your first Tyrant Rave
The bliss of doing a 720 into another 720 into a 1080 with Bullet in Blazblue
@@nivrap_ bullet enjoyer
I've recently seen the sentiment that motion inputs are antiquated and outdated and that tehre is no reason to keep them in fighting games, so I'm happy to see someone with a big casual audience explain to that crowd why one of the more iconic inputs is the way that it is.
There's so many ignorant gaming takes out there. It's infuriating.
I can’t claim to be knowledgeable enough to have a solid opinion on this, but I do think it’s valuable to recognize that something can be clever and valuable, but not worth hanging on to. There are other ways to encourage risk vs reward, ideally without the increased barrier to entry that motion inputs can create.
In a way, the popularity of highly competitive fighting games can sometimes hurt fighting games as a whole, by creating the impression that you NEED to be able to know all the moves and combos in order to play the game and have fun.
@@bioboygamer
That explains why SSBU is the best selling fighting game and Street Fighter 2 is in 2nd place by a mile.
To be frank, it's just that people don't want to put like 5 mins of effort to learn a quarter circle motion. It's really easy to pull off even when you start fighting games. People just want it to be the same way as other games because they're familiar to it regardless of what the motion input's role is.
@@maxmin2434 Quater-circles are relatively easy (with a D-pad), but for someone who's never done a command input in their life it'll probably take at least a few hours of play to get reasonably consistent with it. Also many new players don't realize that D-pad is easier and will be trying to do it on an analog stick.
Shoryuken input on the other hand is WAY harder to be consistent with, and this varies a lot by how strict the game is with its inputs. It can take quite a lot of practice to consistently DP instead of accidentally quarter-circling.
I actually never thought the "risk vs. reward" aspect of the Shoryuken motion, so this is an interesting thing to mention already! It just goes to show how much people had been using it nowadays.
now THIS is how you have a discussion about game design. a singular example is broken down into the philosophies behind it and the applications of it in both theory and practice, as well as how a seasoned designer has interacted with the feature in both their own and others' projects. thank you, sakurai!
In fighting games, you block attacks by holding back, Shoryuken is a move that uses forward, down and down forward, 3 directions that do not allow you to block, this means that Shoryuken is a move you have to do with confidence in what you're doing. You know you're going to anti-air, reversal, counter a move successfully or you're going to be open to a punish.
In contrast, Guile's Flash Kick hold down, up, can also be performed holding down back, up, which gives him a very defensive fighting style since almost all his moves allow him to be in block, to beat him you have to make him guess whether to block standing or crouching, which affects the moves he can do.
However fighting games are one of the hardest genres of gaming not because of inputs, but the mind games you have to play to force or go around your opponents inputs. At a high level, your opponent isn't going to drop inputs, you don't count on them dropping, you force or bait them to choose inputs in your favour. It's an extremely high speed game of chess and rock paper scissors at the same time.
Fighting games are hard because of the high-speed mind games *combined* with the execution barrier of inputs. There's plenty of people who can do motion inputs consistently in training, but mess them up when they're in the heat of battle. There's also people who never drop an input, but are just bad at reading their opponent and choosing their moves. And there's people who are great at figuring out what to do but can't pull off the inputs.
Yes at the top level no one drops their inputs, but 90% of people are not at that level.
@@ZanadorYou don't need to be a top level player just to not drop inputs. I can't speak for SF but in Strive at least, it's pretty uncommon for even the average ranked players to drop more than 1 input per match.
It takes getting used to it, yes, but the reward of finally joining the big boys' club is more than worth it.
As you said, Guile's charge moves give him excelent defensive game, at the cost of movility and sometimes combos. To deal with this, charge characters usually have variant button attacks ejich are done by holding back/foward amd attacking, like guile's knee bazooka which makes him jump foward, and jis Sobat kick backwards. Tjis allows him to move while not sacrificing his charge
Many other charge characters have these unique normal attacks: Ash Crimson, Charlie Nash, Remy, Kain R. Heidern, etc.
overhead attacks tend to work well on Guile becuz they force him to throw away his downward charge in order to block it successfully
@@ZanadorI see your point but I would say the difficulty in inputs isn’t ALWAYS true. A game like street fighter 4(which had no buffer and a lot of 1-frame combos) or KOF XV(which has complicated motion inputs) have this issue far more than a game like GGST. Plus now with street fighter 6, you can use modern controls to lose 1-2 command normals in exchange for guaranteed consistency
I'm not very familiar with fighting games much outside Super Smash Bros., so the breakdown of what makes the Shoryuken so significant was greatly appreciated.
Let it be known that even Sakurai, the man that gave us the "not fighting game" understands the nuance of motion inputs and that their value isn't just because of "legacy".
I never fully appreciated the risk vs reward of this stick input combination until this video. This was an excellent explainer for a move I've long taken for granted
Legit just a great discussion of how motion inputs have a genuine function beside "be hard" or "feel good" (though he could've brought up that it does feel good lol)
I wonder if Sakurai will ever touch on motion inputs, that'd be cool I think.
Also why one-button easy commands for really powerful moves tend to throw things way off.
@@AirLancer Games that have one button inputs do tend to take quite a few considerations to accomodate at least.
Hybrid games tend to have a down sides, be it granblue's cooldowns or SF6's restrictions and lesser flexibility. (Though SF6's is definitely not perfect, especially due to 1 button supers that no amount of reduced invulnerability or damage makes them not stupid)
And games entirely made around one button inputs are an entirely different experience pretty much, they tend to shift the focus, upsides and downsides of special moves in accordance to what doing them instantly entails.
Turns out that fighting game's giant, esoteric move lists aren't just to gatekeep casuals. I'm not into Street Fighter, but I've heard people are seeing it's effects in real time, with even pros using simplified inputs in SF6 just because of how powerful it can be to throw out certain moves without wiggling your stick around (be it the time it takes to do so, or the unfavorable stick positions as Sakurai explained)
Another example of this is Guile's charge motions informing his defensive playstyle; he'd want to be crouching and holding back to have a Sonic Boom and Flash Kick at the ready. When you remove that limitation he just goes ham and plays completely different
Of course, that isn't to say that there's a right or wrong way to do it. You'd simply want to think how'd your move would look without wiggling the stick and all its implications.
@@nicocchiThat says more about how you can't drop single-button inputs into a game that has motion inputs than motion inputs being necessary per se.
Even though I’ve never played much of Street Fighter, at least it’s cool to learn about the Command Inputs for both Hadouken and Shoryuken
Sakurai did the Shoryuken and Haddoken so well he really put his heart into it haha
Sakurai: May I add Ryu to Smash 4 as DLC? Capcom: SHORYUKEN!
Hi, Ryu!
HADOUKEN!
Honestly, not really feeling like myself lately.
SHORYUKEN!
These days I can't even tell...
Yoko Shimomura's anecdote is so cute 😂
Sakurai's not gonna sugarcoat it...
➡️⭐⬇️↘️✊
EWGF
What's the star mean
@@TheRealBatabii Neutral Stick Position, mostly used in Tekken
@@TheRealBatabii frame perfect timing. like in tekken in order to perform the eletric wind god fist or EWGF for short you need 1 frame perfect timing to pull it off, cause otherwise you pull normal wind god fist.
@@TheRealBatabii It's the Neutral input. The more detail explanation is that it means to let go of the stick for a split second to let it go back to neutral position before executing the rest of the input.
This channel is a gift to the world.
And then Demitri shows up in Vampire Savior with a *reverse* shoryuken input for Midnight Bliss.
Also interesting that he showed P4A, since Yu's uppercut is only done by just pressing 2 buttons at the same time.
Akuma has reverse DP motion too.... And lets not forget the raging demon motion or raging storm motion
Tho, the raging demon is like that to prevent you from using at point blank, so its still immediate but reactable
@@a_creatorsstuff17You can still mask it in other inputs if you're fast enough, so you can make it very hard to react to. It doesn't combo from much, so pros rarely use it and stick with the other supers, however.
@@a_creatorsstuff17I feel the Raging Demon is more of a super balanced around the attack itself being genuinely harder to do instead, because people HAVE found ways to completely negate the visual tell of a raging demon
DPs in P4A have an extra penalty in exchange for the simpler input (it inflicts a bit of self-damage as recoverable HP), which is a nice touch not just for balancing purposes, but also a clever nod to how skills work in MegaTen as a whole.
To think I’ve gone this long without seeing the risks that the motion brings. Very eye opening.
BEST INTRO AND OUTRO. I'm so happy to hear Sakurai-San talk about command inputs. Not only does it work really well in terms and riskk and reward but it feels sooo satisfying to land because of the more complex input
What a treasure of the human race this man is.
Such a simple explanation for a truly deep concept. And it's clear that Sakurai is having so much fun too!
I was not expecting a piece of trivia about Yoko Shimomura. I love this channel!
The delivery on both "Shoryuken" was excellent
Glad to see Sakurai is growing into his final form, a Japanese FGC content creator who only talks about niche topics instead of just talking about Smash exclusively. It's honestly all I ever wanted.
A legendary move is finally performed by Kirby's creator. What a beautiful time we're living right now
In some kirby games, if you do the hadouken motion with the fighter ability you automatically throw a medium charge focus blast without having to charge it
I find fascinating how in the early nineties “push and pull” mechanics were already there; since then they have needed to be further enhanced & complicated to keep players guessing. Now almost every system in a game has to have them!
Was kind of fun that they threw this and the Hadouken in Mega Man X. I always struggled with pulling off the input commands when I was a kid, but now I can manage it somewhat reliably.
One-shotting Vile with that is so funny
HOLY SHIT SAKURAI IS TALKING ABOUT FIGHTING GAMES
And so much more succinctly than I could ever try to explain the brilliance of the specific motions (and I've tried)
Motion inputs feel so good to do, especially on an arcade stick. Quickly drawing a Z to swat someone out of the air will never not be satisfying.
one thing I find interesting to note, while Sakurai is correct in that the input directions DO put you in a vulnerable position, practiced hands can throw out this input in a fraction of a second thus minimizing the window you're left exposed. The real challenge then comes from learning to time the input to a characters wake-up animation to be able to use a Shoryuken style move on wake-up as a reversal ( a move/mechanic that means you're executing an attack on the very frame your wake-up animation ends) which can punish a carelessly greedy opponent trying to attack or set up an attack while you're getting up ( in fighting game circles the term used for this is Okizeme).
Of course as was pointed out the move used this way still carries a great deal of risk because if you miss or get blocked, you're once again wide open, and more than likely going to end up in another combo and knocked down again.
What a great anecdote about Yoko Shimamura. This should really go without saying, but it proves how important people can be to games without the hyper-fixation on "skill".
I remember when I was learning basic fighting game strat as a kid, a bunch of the guides I found online didn't actually write out how to do a Shoryuken input, they'd just write "DP." It was such a ubiquitous concept that nobody thought they needed to actually explain how to do a DP input. Just kind of amusing in hindsight.
You could always find the move list in the booklet that came with the game.
@@RameoMTL Nah, I was mostly playing rentals from Blockbuster, so it didn't come with the manual.
nice touch about Yoko's opinion of the Shoryuken
The special effects in these videos are getting really good
I really like this video, the basics of Shoryuken and how it still applies to modern design. SF2 being one of the core games that brought about fighting games. Also thumbs up just for Sakurai performing a shoryuken. I hope Maximillian_Dood watches this!
P.S. When I started playing SF 2 as a kid when it came out I played it at a friends house, they would whoop me good because they knew the moves better but I remember it pushed me to learn to do a Hadouken and Shoryuken myself through out the years. When I started to be able to do it flawlessly it was a real hallmark moment for me. To this day it still feels great to execute
Very good and insightful analysis for up and coming game designers.
Thank you for not overbuffing command!Shoryuken… Whenever I try this input in Smash, my character instead does a crouch attack, or a tilt attack, or a dash attack, or a smash attack, or a Hadouken, or a Tatsumaki…
While I'm not a traditional fighting game person, the Shoryuken is undoubtedly iconic. It's neat to have a video dedicated to it on this channel!
Also, two moves from Sakurai's Street Fighter 6 DLC moveset just got shown off.
I love the idea of Sakurai being one of those cool teachers that finds fun and interesting ideas to teach a subject.
I just noticed that the word Shoryuken has the words Ryu and Ken in it. That's nice.
I love the shoryuken input with a passion when i understood fighting games and this video explained perfectly thank you sakurai
Lol 😆 I love watching Sakurai's channel. So fun, and you can learn alot more about games and the history behind them. The way he explains them is so awesome too, you get to watch him interact with other game developers playing games. So glad I subbed to his channel. This guy is an artist.
some of the greatest moves in gaming. I'm more of a Tiger/Tiger uppercut guy. I never did see the original SF in the wild as a kid. When I learned about its history it'd pretty crazy it even got a sequel, and one that changed gaming/arcades forever.
Tiger! Tiger! Tiger! Tiger! Tiger! Tiger! Tiger! Tiger!
@@evilded2 tiger knee! tiger uppercut
😂😂😂😂 i wonder who that character is
@@hugocastilla3102 Jab, Up, Down, Down, Up, Jab or Short.
@@evilded2 ..... reppuken
Sakurai that Soryuken intro was really COOL! 😮
I believe this input is even more interesting when you tie it to moves that don't have invencibility like Heavy D's "D crazy" in KOF 98,.
I've struggled for years to wrap my head around the shoryuken input. No explanation has really made it click in a way that I can do reliably.
Somehow, Sakurai's works perfectly for my brain.
To be fair, Sakurai's explanation has been a thing that's understood by most avid fighting game players, especially the longer they play and learn. The problem is that, the games themselves never really explained it outright. It kinda trusts the player to put two and two together just from the motion of the inputs and the players' understanding that back = block and forward = not blocking, which can be a double-edged sword, especially when dealing with the casual audience.
This is one of my favourite videos on the platform, thank you!
Hearing about Yoko Shumomura's excitement over pulling off the Shoryuken brought a light into my heart. Protect this woman at all costs please.
Funny how, when showing examples of Shoryukens in other games, he showed Persona 4 Arena, a game that doesn't have any forward down down-forward inputs. The "Shoryuken" he showed was done by pressing 2 buttons at the same time.
It's a shoto move basically, even if you don't do the motion if you have a projectil, a spinning kick and a dragon punch, you're a shoto, believe it or not Armadon was a shoto in Primal Rage. Although a lot of characters had projectils Armadon had:
Flying spikes, he leans forward and shoots spikes from his tail = projectil
Hornication uppercut = he does a dragon punch with his nose horn = Dragon punch
Spinning death, he turns into a ball and rolls across the screen = tatsu
Mechanicwise they're all the same thing, even if their inputs are different.
@@raptros sure sure, but this video clearly puts heavy emphasis on the actual input, and the consequences thereof. So I just found it humorous that of all the potential examples to choose from, they chose one that didn't use the input.
Right?? I had to pause for a moment
What An Outstanding Introduction and Ending Outro To Start With Masahiro Sakurai. SHOYOUKEN!!!!!!!! and then camera break edit with the HADOKEN!!!! 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥 Nicely done with explaining everything about the Shoryuken Command in this today lesson video.
0:09 We all did as a kid. Of course, gravity will not allow us to jump that high.
4:28 A tried and true accomplishment! Good for her!
Oh My..! 😮
Don't mess with Master Sakurai, because he's Mastered real life Hadouken and Shoryuken! 🔥💪🏼
I really loved this video, excellent information and fun 💯👏🏻
I also feel the command is kind hard for being reverse of the hadouken, which flows nicely from one direction only, while the shoryuken need to "go back" so to say
Also the story about Yoko Shimomura is too wholesome, love it
The first time i made a Shoryuken command was in Mega Man X2, when getting all the Armor parts, heart tanks and sub tanks and in the third stage of the Sigma/X-Hunters base getting the capsule with that final upgrade
SHORYUKEN!!!
Never put that much thought into the motion. Nice breakdown.
Its interesting to note the lengths/changes to these moves developers do when you take them off input.
The developers tend to try and add nore drawbacks to compensate.
He showed P4A for example, which doesnt use DP motion, and instead uses just 2 buttons at the same time (or just one if you use the shortcut). To compensate the move takes white health from you (recoverable over time, but instantly lost when hit), and puts you in Fatal Counter state if you get hit during recovery.
They amped the punishments for it in order to keep its strengths when it lost the input factor for balancing.
"You must defeat Mister Sakurai To stand a chance!"
I haven't watched many of these videos as of late but I'm really glad I checked this one out
Awesome video, this man is a legend.
The Shoryuken motion being associated to anti-air is mostly true for fighting games with high jumps.
Tekken being slower and mostly grounded, to balance the fact that anti-air attacks are basically useless, completing the motion makes the Mishimas crouch dash, which adds the advantage of approaching the opponent while dodging high attacks. Different mechanics = different rewards!
The addition of having to return to neutral also makes the input feel completely different than a DP input. It's more like drawing a C than drawing a Z (unless you do a 13 frame PEWGF).
This might be the new best intro to a Sakurai video ever.
Nice Shoryuken entrance Masahiro!💪🏽💥🥊🥋
Hey there everybody. This is Sakurai. From Smash! Did you know? My favorite things are: Jumping into a shoryuken. Stale moves. Water without any water. The newest season of American Dad. Aaaaand rocks. See you in Kid Icarus 5 everybody!
I didn’t know I needed to see Sakurai perform hadouken and shoryuken.
Sakurai's Shoryuken gives off the same energy as that time when ZUN used Love Sign: "Master Spark"
Sakurai Shoryukens his audience twice and Hadoukens the camera, breaking it in the process.
The Yoko Shimomura anecdote is a cute one. It means she probably had difficulties pulling off the Shoryuken in the original Street Fighter II.
I had no idea of the invincibility at the start of the Shoryuken in the original SFII, or maybe I did but never really put attention to it. That explains the Invincibility in Smash when using the command version.
2:07 - Sakurai says *'Sonnaifaibichu!'*
Would describe the experience of performing Shoryuken perfectly.
Fun insight! Now, how about we learn about pretzel motions?
I went "eeeeeee" like a schoolgirl after finding out sakurai has a game design channel
The big problem I have with the shoryuken in Smash is that you're forced to use the control stick and can't change to the dpad, which is my preference when playing other 2D fighters.
You can remap buttons from the ultimate menu if you want
@@2010AZyou just changed everything for them
@@2010AZ you cant make the d-pad do any directional stuff :(
@@eltiolavara9 you should be able to, I've done it before.
@@2010AZ you can't change everything.
very amazing, thanks sakurai! legendary classic fighting game input and move name!
The strangest part about all of this is that Sakurai actually played the first Street Fighter 1 and then played SF2 and actually noting the changes
As a koF player, is so funny watching sakurai explain the DP motion so thoroughly when in KoF you can input shoryukens as half cirble back+foward+attack instead
I've been playing street fighter on and off for over 20 years (albeit very casually, and badly), but i still didn't know some of the inner mechanisms that Sakurai went over, like the Shoryuken having invincibility frames at the startup.
It's why it's often the go-to wakeup reversal move, although certain games give the Shoryuken's invincibilities some caveats. In Street Fighter 6 for instance, normal DPs are only invincible to aerial attacks, not grounded ones, so a wakeup normal DP will still lose to a well timed grounded meaty attack (an attack timed to hit you as soon as you get up), but will crush a jump in. EX DP on the other hand is fully invincible, and cuts through both aerial AND grounded attacks.
Until Super Street Fighter II Turbo, the SRK was completely invulnerable on the way up.
You just can't get enough of that cheesy, baritone "SHORYUKEN" call-out from SF2.
Sakurai approaches me. He suddenly crouches and now crouch walks towards me...
Fast-forward to my funeral.
How is he so smart, clever, generous, and cool? Life goals.
Having different inputs for the same move with varying benefits is something really worth thinking about.
I think it's an incredible way to keep new players, one of the biggest reasons casuals drop fighting games is the difficulty of command inputs, if they can start off using weaker but far easier versions of those moves it will encourage them to keep playing long enough to pull off those moves properly and give them a sense of reward for having learned it
@@williamholtzclaw3029I don't really see how you can simplify the input any further. Usually characters have a normal button attack that acts like a poor man's version of the special attack anyway. Ryu's crouching fierce punch is a decent anti air uppercut but with no invincibility or anything.
I love watching sakurai nerd out about things
One of the many reasons of why motion inputs exist
There's little in gaming that is more internally rewarding than teaching yourself the muscle memory for doing a shoryuken.
Going from "I know this exists" to "oh! I did it! Accidentally!" to "oh I see if I do this..." to being able to throw it out on reaction is something so amazing, I almost wish I could make myself forget fighting games and relearn them entirely. That joy is immense.
sounds like learning movement tech in celeste ^^
And then there are those who go "I know this exists" to "I can't do it without practicing? Game is garbage." So it ends right there.
I see lots of people not into fighting games acting like that process of improvement is suffering, and it just baffles me. That progression through practice is part of why fighting games are so gratifying, and in a way it's wear the real progression in these games lie. In RPGs you see a level go up in game to mark your progression. In fighting games, YOU, in the real world, outside the game, become capable of doing things you weren't able to before.
It's truly an iconic attack.
Intro Was Epic.
Twenty one seconds in and it's already great.
**After watching that into** Ahhhh Mr. Sakurai! This world is not for someone as precious as you!
Hell yeah cmd inputs! I love analyzing game design when it comes to fighting games.
I wonder how this input compares to Akatsuki Blitzkampf’s/Under Night’s down down motion for shoryu
I always though down down was really strange for DPs, but it's fine for things like Carmine's blood spikes.
The Shoryuken looks like a fighting technique that won't get anyone messing around with you
in an actual fight literally no one is gonna jump at you 6 feet in the air but yeah I guess
Hope to see many more videos like this! 🤩🙌🏾👌🏾
Awesome! So much knowledge and fun facts
The little cartoon Yoko Shimomura was so cute! :3
This is why I think motion inputs are so essential to fighting games like Street Fighter. The difficulty of executing the moves, combined with how vulnerable the motions make your character, are rewarded with super cool, strong moves. You can still win matches without special moves as long as you know your basics, so not being able to perform the Shoryuken isn't an excuse. Heck, I still struggle with it too.
It also makes it so that as you get better at doing the input, the move literally gets better as the faster you can input the command, the faster it comes out. It's like learning a technique in real martial arts, or less analogously, a musical instrument. You start off not being able to do it all that well, but as you practice and get better at doing it, the resulting technique is better than when you started.
Hearing him talk about how shoryu would have been stronger but they toned it down for casual players makes me really want to see sakurai direct a game targeted at competitive players again. If the last time he did it he made a game that's still played competitively over 20 years later it would be amazing to see what could happen now with all these extra years of experience (and hopefully more than 13 months of dev time)
I love this channel!
One thing that wasn't talked about much is the input overlap between commands, which adds to the risk of the movement - if your inputs aren't clean, you can easily overshoot and perform a Hadoken instead. I wonder if this was caused because of the limitations of the special input system being reliant on the stick, or if the fuzziness of the inputs was an intentional design choice to, again, make the Shoryuken riskier to perform.
I think in a game like Smash Bros, command inputs are a bit too difficult where movement is so fast and important, so i appreciate the restraint in making the command Shoryuken less effective, since the core game doesnt really work with it too much.
Also, i was completely unaware of the inputs factoring into the risk factor of the move, great video!
Fast mobility may be one factor, but there are 2 other important ones; first of all, much of the Smash playerbase that don't play other fighters won't be familiar or proficient with motion inputs-but even more so, playing fighting games on an analog stick is generally not recommended, and you'll likely have a MUCH easier time pulling of a DP (Shoryuken) motion on the D-pad. Since you can't use the D-pad for movement in Smash, the best way to input that command on gamepad isn't available.