How Dangerous is DCC to DC HO Locomotives? Let's Find Out!
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
- For several decades there has been a debate on weather it's alright to run older analog direct current or 'DC' locomotives on digital command control 'dcc" without a decoder.
While most digital controllers do have a feature to run older analog locomotives it has always been believed to be a risk to the motor due to there always being voltage present in the track.
The kind of energy is also much different with alternating current instead of direct current so today I decided to put it to the test and run three different eras of locomotives.
I let each one idle for an entire hour to see if the motors would overheat, checking in on the temperature every 30 minutes or so. The results were not at all what I expected.
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A Mythbusters chapter of the SMT Manual. I will still be conservatively DC😅 Well done, Harrison
I think that's wise, nothing can fail at idle when no voltage is in the track lol. At least DCC power doesn't seem to be as risky as I once believed.
@4everdc302 I'm with you! You ain't the only one who run your trains on 'DC' power ''DCC'' is just overrated hype, Just because its flashy with all the bells and whistles doesn't mean its ''better''
Ohio
Hey Harrison, thanks for doing that experiment. I have run a set of DC N scale Lifelike SD9 locomotives with a DCC controler for a couple of years and they never overheated and still run great.
Exactly what I needed to know 😮
@@DIYDI run them using the #10 address on my controller. It's for DC locomotives. I run both locomotives together pulling a 25 car train.
That's good to know.
Great test! Thx for sacrificing your loco roster so we don't have to, LOL. Nice job of finding another way to spend a few hours in the train room as well. AND you managed to covertly work the words "crappy" and "Tyco" into the same sentence. We now need more information on the dog, please. :)
No problem. That old tyco is pretty bad, the power-torque never really was the best drive but despite that I have to give it credit for not failing these tests. The Dog is the newest addition to the family, his name is Mavric and he's an Aussie Shepard :)
Well Professor Harrison, your scientific approach to the question was on point. DC motors can take current while not turning without rising to critical temperatures, and that is the reason elevators use a DC motor for the internal doors of the car so that constant pressure is applied to keep the door open or closed. I personally gave this DC/DCC fear as much credence as the, at the same time, pass wind, sneeze, and belch fear of death, LOL. The likelihood of overheating is far less than the warning implies. Great informative video, Jersey Bill
I think you're on the money with that analogy. The question isn't if there's risk, the question is to what extent it poses a threat.
The only true problems are when you have a derail with a dc loco on dcc track. If it hits just right and the over current breaker in the command station doesn't shut down, you have full voltage flowing through, a special problem with brass. The annoying 'singing' noise that comes from a dc loco sitting on dcc powered track is the other. It comes from the square wave signal in the track. At the RR club one time there were 3 locos sitting on roundhouse stall tracks, all dc. Terrible. Installed kill switches in the next work session. Also, any loco with a coreless motor should NEVER run on dcc track without a decoder. Great vids.
I worry about dead shorts and their toll on my supply when derailing. I am too poor to run DCC and have no experience with it. I am curious about the 1157 bulb trick and a DCC controller. I keep one I can pop in and out of the circuit on my DC track when I am testing a repair or running on changed track. I never use it when I am sure of things. I prefer to read voltages and currents exact on my controller. I wonder what effect it would have voltage drop and all.
@@useruser-oc8xn Constant testing as you go helps alleviate that problem. The bulb is only an indicator, you have to clear the short as soon as possible. In a club I was in we had a short. It was one pair of track feeders that got reversed. I test after every new section of track installed. Once everything is connected, it can be a real pain to find. Kato feeder wire is blue and white. I use the blue to the back rule. works 99% of the tie.
If there was a full on short the issue would be the same on DC unless someone manually cut the power. Many DC controllers don't have a breaker or even an overload light and I've seen some burn up because of it.
@@SMTMainline right. My old Tech2 from MRC has the red light. Saved me a couple times way back when. All power systems should have built in protection now. In today's age it's crazy to think they don't. One more piece of electronics wouldn't break the bank.
@@rickmiller4202 The 1157 does a little more than indicate, it limits the current in a short.
Oh wow, you showed us the puppy! Australian Shepherd? My neighbor has one except he's almost all brown. And of course, nerf cat! Interesting experiment might I add, I see you moved the little yellow split level house to an angle and gave it a little driveway. Looks great! Keep up the great work! Your helping out so many people who are entering the hobby!
He is an Australian Shepherd, Nerf Cats new best buddy Mavric! You're the first one to notice the change to the house, I never felt it looked right at the previous angle but I think this might have fixed the issue.
@@SMTMainline it's great that him and nerf cat get along, I find bringing a new pet home can be a change for the pet you already have, my turtle was pretty blindsided when we brought cookie home almost two years ago. Also, I noticed pretty much everything that changes on the layout, even the little brown car (AMC eagle? My uncle had one and it looks like it) on the road next to the controller changing lanes every so often. And it looks like there might even be more turf on the tracks that E2 #909 is on. I'd bet I could make an accurate map of the whole layout from memory because I've been watching you for so long (was there to see your first videos be uploaded) keep up the great work!
I almost burned out my dc pcc trolley motor! This helped a lot. It was making a weird noise and the light was on!
If a motor ever gets stuck or runs at a low rpm while being given full power never force it to run. It sounds like something has caused yours to jam up.
@@SMTMainlinewhat does slow speeds mean when dc engines are at full throttle? A Motor burn up?
I'd like to say "Thank You" for the video even though I knew the results before hand of the video. In the past, I've used Analog (DC) locomotives on DCC that had no bad results with locomotives which were similarly used in the video. As a Digitrax user, the only warning that was provided on coreless motors that may be damaged. To this day, I haven't seen this motor type. My guess is these motors are small motors in HO scale equipment, or they may be used in N scale and Z scale equipment. If anyone knows of a manufacture(s) that uses this type of motor, please comment.
There is something that I would like to mention. It's best to not let an Analog (DC) locomotive sit on a DCC idling for long periods of time. As seen in the video, the motor does generate heat which will not be too good for the motor in the long term, but actually have the locomotive moving is alright. It's best to place the Analog (DC) locomotive on an isolated track when not in use. This will help the locomotive motor cool, and it will take a load off of the booster. This keeps the locomotive from moving if address 0 is used by someone else. This tip works equally well for DCC locomotives to prevent creeping or accidental address selection along with taking a load off of the booster. (For those wondering about an isolation track, it's a track where the power can be shut off with a simple switch.)
So, I mentioned doing Analog (DC) locomotives on DCC. My record is 9 Athearn Blue box DC locomotives on my club's DCC 30' x 70' layout. The consist made it halfway around the layout before the 5-amp booster had a thermal shut down even with a fan blowing across the heatsink fins. So, a few Athearn Blue box DC locomotives should be fine to run around a layout or adding more boosters with power districts might be in order if more power is needed.
Thanks for sharing
I seem to recall that the original Lenz Digital system (the one that the NMRA standard is based on) could drive one DC analogue loco using address 00. It does it by moving the DCC waveform towards the positive or negative.
Correct, JBofBrisbane! I had a Lenz DCC system and the DC loco buzzed like an angry bee. I stopped running the loco as the motor got too hot.
Great video, SMT. I agree with everything you said, from my experience with both DC and DCC. But I'll admit my surprise too with the temperatures.
I'm glad to hear that :)
Cheers for the advice harrison, despite living in the uk and using uk models, this still applies - i tried to run a 1970s triang class 37 on my friends dcc layout and in short it burnt out - wont be making that mistake again! Great video mate, well done :)
Sorry to hear that happened. I find the X04 motors can be sensitive and I think it has to do with the magnets.
@@SMTMainline The Class 37s used the dreadful old 'Spider' motors, not the X03/X04. I think they were the last model to use them. It wasn't until the 1980s (IIRC 1982?) that they switched them to Ringfield.
This was very helpful! I am planning to have both my dcc and dc controller connected to my layout, with a similar electrical system as you.
Right on.
Good and informative video! I personally don’t think you should run DC locos on DCC, but it can be done. One thing I will say is I wouldn’t recommend running coreless motors on DCC. Although they are low voltage, they are very fragile. For reference many of Rapido’s models use coreless motors, some of Bachmann’s, and lots of British locos. Lots of motors in more modern locos also are not made for as high voltage as older ones, so bare that in mind as well.
I haven't worked with any coreless motors myself but I've heard the same thing. Maybe without the steel arms the heat builds up quicker and to higher levels.
@@SMTMainline I believe that is the case. Could be mistaken but I believe that Bachmann Porter tank you converted to the fireless loco has a coreless motor. Some of those Rapido ones you have MIGHT have one, but I’m not too sure. Overall they work very similar to traditional motors but don’t have an iron core.
Thanks for doing this test. I would guess that N Scale would give similar results.
The risk is probably slightly higher with N scale locomotives since the motors have smaller windings and require less voltage to run but considering the tyco survived I suspect most would be okay.
Thanks Harrison for the video. It is interesting, I run all DC locomotives on my track but I use PWM (Pulse width modulation) using this I can use current detectors to run gate crossing and aspect lights. I have never burnt up a motor and it seams to give a bit more power to the loco. always a lot of fun.
PWM can be finicky with DCC-equipped locomotives (they sometimes misinterpret the PWM output as a DCC signal) and coreless motors (these don't like being pulsed like that), but for a purely analog setup with conventional analog locomotives it gives better response and enables a bunch of cool features. PWM is actually how RC motor controllers for brushed motors work as well.
Bachmann's DCC controller has a number setting pre programmed for analog DC
Function 10, I remember it well. You could also attach a DC controller from their starter sets to it and use all 10 buttons and have analog controls.
This is what I use. I love it. Haven't had a hiccup yet.
This was an excellent test, Harrison! While you can run DC locomotives on DCC (which you will need to enter 00 as the address in order to control them), it is not recommended that you leave the locomotive(s) on the track powered up for very long periods of time. Likewise, with most current DCC/SOUND equipped locomotives, while still able to operate in DC, manufacturers recommend that those models be operated on DCC, and to especially avoid operating them on any DC powerpack that contains "pulse power"! As someone else mentioned in the comments section, those types of powerpacks can be rough with just straight DC locomotives, but can potentially be fatal to to DCC/SOUND equipped locomotives! Most newer powerpacks, especially like the MRC Tech 6 (which is specifically designed to work with DCC and sound equipped locomotives), shouldn't be an issue, although you will be severely limited as to how many locomotives you can operate due to the high current draw in order for the decoder to function and operate the locomotive.
@@randallellison6421 Absolutely
Good work young Sir. with this testing/ research..
You have put our fears and worries to rest.
Me feel much better as of now.
Do must add that was a Lovely grey cat..!
Thank you so kindly!
After watching your videos i got into model railroading and its soooooo fun!
It sure is!
Very impressive results. I had some old trains burn out their motors (or get hot enough to melt their bodies and paint) just from running conventionally so I assumed DCC was at least more likely to have that issue, but these all held up very well.
That's unfortunate. They might have got insanely hot to do so
Very nice and informative video. A mith has just been defunked. I've found your channel randomly during july and I liked a lot your video. However, I've waited till today to write down a comment because I wanted to write it under a recent video. Your restoration video are awesome, and even if I have never serviced my h0 trains, with your videos I'm currently attempting to do it. Of course, I've subscribed to your channel. Greetings from Italy. Carlo.
Thank you so much, it means a lot to hear that!
I’ll always have mixed feelings about DCC. I’m glad to have some things cleared up about it, but when I was younger my grandparents accidentally got me 3 DCC engines as at the time they didn’t know they were DCC, and since we both only use DC, it didn’t bode well. These engines consisted of GP40 Chessie of some kind, a Prairie steam engine, and a little green shunter diesel. All 3 burnt up not long after I got them, and never ran again. They haven’t worked since and I’ve since scrapped all 3 for parts. It really stinks cause I loved that Chessie a bunch. But I’ve had DC engines that I’ve had for years and some that were made decades ago, and they still run perfectly fine. So I’ll always have reservations about DCC. Even so, glad you made this video! Helped a lot!
I had the same thing happen. When I got DCC some locomotives wouldn't run because they already had decoders - the DC power didn't fry them though.
@@SMTMainline dang I feel that. Whats weird is that mine DCC engines did run for a time. But then they all just went kaput. They still tried to run as well. Their lights would turn in, but their motors would either buzz or do nothing at all.
Although one should not run analog on DCC, looks like you busted a myth. Another good video. Very informative. Nice job. Come 'em coming. From Texas.
Exactly, I still think the risk is real but nowhere near as bad as originally thought.
@@SMTMainline Correction; keep 'em coming. Sorry about that.
Very interesting. I run most of my trains with a DCC controller, and while there is one slot for a DC/Analog locomotive, I've had some of my DC engines converted to DCC to minimize any sort of risk in this regard.
Probably a good choice.
Nice video! Keep up the good work
I have a 8X6 layout with my big portion DC powered, with a DCC loop in the middle. I use to be in a model railroad club and had to convert a few locos over in order to operate on the club layout.
Enjoy the videos 😎
The inside loop on my layout is usually run on DC but I have the option to switch it over to DCC as well.
@@SMTMainline nice 👌
Fantastic work SMT Mainline 1:48
Dcc was designed with this in mind. If you hooked up an ac ammeter in series with the motor you will see the current is low. This is due to the high frequency of the supply and the inductance of the motor. Therefore the impedance is relatively large.
Many so called model railway experts dont understanding electronics
That is great to hear. I was wondering if the current draw would be the same or not.
@@SMTMainline the current will be low because of the impedance of the windings.
Another thing to consider is how much metal mass there is in each loco. The amount of metal in some of these locos with the lower ambient temps combined with a near imperceptible bit of air movement, may be just enough. Plus running it without the shells may actually be allowing a minor degree of extra cooling. If I can run a low wattage desktop CPU without fans just sheer thermal mass and passive air cooling that could be true for these DC motors in some cases.
The chassis could definitely be acting as a heatsink however considering the temperatures were only a couple degrees higher than they were in the first half hour, I suspect they had reached their maximum temperature.
For those who want to know the technical details of the reason those test results happened, the winding in the motors are inductive. At high frequencies, the inductance reduces the current drawn. The 50 micro second pulses and 100 micro second pulses, convert to a 100 micro second cycle and and 200 micro second cycle (positive followed by negative pulses). Converting the square wave durations to frequency for the cycles results in the following effective fundamental frequencies. This would be 5KHZ and 10KHZ for the 1 and 0 bits. Harmonics of the square wave are higher in frequency.
Thanks for this detailed explanation.
Props to the freedom units, my son loves your channel, keep up the good work.
First, anyways I've always liked trains and planes but lately planes have grown on me a lot more than trains so i am now gathering supplies to build a model airport next to my model railroad!
Fr
I've seen it done on a club layout, theirs might have been an aircraft museum instead an airport though.
I recall Walthers offering a DC-3 and another World War II aircraft in HO scale back in the 1990s.
The Varney F3 had a bullet proof Pittman open frame five pole motor. Like Bowser who also used Pittmans, these were quality products designed to "take a lickin' and keep on tickin" as they lasted a lifetime. Classic Mantua locos that used open frame motors are also pretty good, but after that, have your Carbon Tetrachloride extinguisher ready to fight electrical fires. I would suspect Rivarossi, although good on DC might be in danger on DCC
"During World War II Pittman provided their small DC motors to the US Navy for use in their ships and submarines. After World War II motor production for trains resumed in the fall of 1945, with Mantua, Pittman and Varney announcing 12-volt HO motors (Mantua’s was actually made by Pittman now) and some stores were offering a trade-in credit for people returning a 6-volt motor when buying a 12-volt model. Twelve volts would continue to be the standard track voltage for many years, and was common for HO and even 'O' gauge up to the 1970’s. Even today motors in HO are typically tested by reviewers using 12 volt power supplies, and it’s considered the standard voltage, even though the typical HO power pack is putting out 16 or more volts and the NMRA doesn’t specify standard DC voltages any more.
In the spring of 1946 Pittman announced their DC-60 and DC-71 models, both twelve-volt, five-pole open-frame Alnico single permanent-magnet brushed motor designs with straight windings, intended for HO scale models and with a no-load speed around 12,000 RPM and a recommended maximum speed of around 9,000 RPM. The DC 71 had many descendants and a version was still in production when Bowser bought the open-frame motor designs and tooling from Pittman around 1980. The current day Pittman, owned and operated by Ametek Motion Solutions, makes can motors that are used in some modern 'O' scale trains. In 2000 Bowser introduced its DC-71 (still using that model number and of similar specifications) that used a skewed winding. That motor in this new form has remained in production, providing a very enduring design after over 70 years. Bowser also produced the DC-65 for a while."
Note Pittman and Lionel motors were used to drive mechanical analog fire control computers both ashore and at sea during WW2.
"
Thanks for this detailed information. My belief that the Pittman motor would burn out was a doubt of their overall quality, more the poor condition of my specific one - Even in a compromised state it still didn't fail so I shouldn't have underestimated it, the Navy choose well with them.
Nice methodology and controls for your testing.
I personally would have installed a decoder in those old locomotives. In my experience, it’s mind blowing: even very old stuff runs better on DCC. That old Tyco might be more trouble than it’s worth, granted, and the results less than hoped for, but it would be an improvement. The GP15…get that engine a decoder!
The loco will run no better on DCC than it runs on DC. You may get better control but if it runs poorly on DC, don't expect better on DCC.
Sometimes the CVs can be messed with to give the motor higher starting voltage etc to help at low speeds etc but fundamentally I agree.
Looks like you should have fun with the Aussie. Entertaining breed. When I got married my wife came with an Aussie Cattle dog (blue healer), but pretty atypical for the breed in that he loved everybody. My sister-in-law had gotten an Aussie Shepperd, double Merrill a couple years later from a parking lot. She was a lover and just recently passed so it was fun to see yours with Nerf cat.
They seem to have a lot of energy. He was one of about 6 and apparently is one of the calmest which seems hard to believe considering how much he loves to run
Freedom units Hell yeah
'Murica
@@SMTMainlineraaaaahhhhhhhhh
@@SMTMainlineUR COMMENT TRANSLATED TO "KILL ME" LOLOLOL
Dc,is still the best!!! period!!! Thanks for your videos!
Believe it or not, I have had two locomotive motors burn out running DC motors on DCC. One was an early 1980s AHM/Mehano trolley. I hadn't actually planned on running it, just setting it on a track for display. Someone turned the track poser on to the yard track it was sitting on. 5 minutes later, it released the magic smoke.
The second one was a Hornby A-4 Pacific of about the same vintage, but I think it was the carbon buildup (I hadn't figured out how to get into the motor to give it a good cleaning yet) that actually caused the damage.
I've also successfully operated many other DC locomotives on DCC, so I'm thinking those two were aberrations.
AHM Mehano motors are known for having commutator issues so maybe that was the source of the problem. Did you check the coils after for burn marks?
@@SMTMainline Didn't really need to...the whole thing was blackened and did not function at all. I already had a replacement motor on hand from a remotor project for a friend (oddly enough, the IHC/Mehano steam locos used the same motor into the late 1990s).
Great test, Harrison. Thanks. “The more you know”
Thank you!
This is a type of experiment I could never afford
Harrison, two things:
(1) Thank you for this! This was very informative, in an almost "Mythbusters" fashion. I like how you did this!
(2) Thanks again for letting Nerf Cat have a cameo!!!
Thank you!
Empirical evidence trumps all.. Thanks for doing this!
DC (Direct Current):
Benefits: Easy to use, No decoder required, Affordable
Drawbacks: Cannot run with sound, and must run all locomotives on the same track at once.
DCC (Digital Command Control):
Benefits: Can control individual locomotives separately, can use realistic sounds
Drawbacks: Additional Cost for decoder, locomotives more expensive than DC
Conclusion: DC is more suitable for beginners, as well as people who don't want sounds on their layout, whereas DCC is for more experienced modelers with many locomotives, as well as modelers who want the full experience.
I tend to agree although I've seen some experienced modelers go back to DC since they enjoyed the simplicity. I think it all depends on what someone's goals are in the hobby.
I wouldn’t have thought that DCC manufacturers would advertise that you can use DC equipment with DCC controllers if it was dangerous to the DC equipment. It makes sense that the results show that it’s- at least in most cases- perfectly safe to run DC locomotives on DCC.
I think its more to cover themselves if someone breaks something due to their product.
Hey SMT I am starting a layout soon and this helps a lot! Thanks!
Brief lesson with how DCC decoders send power to the loco motors. They are not rectified and linear pure DC as suggested in your video. They use PWM much the same way your DCC command stations run DC locos. Think of it as turning a light switch on and off at a variable rate. The slower you do so.. the greater the pulses aborbed by the motor and it moves along. The faster the pulses ,the less time a resistive coil like a motor has time to react to it and it doesn't move but things like the lighting will come on immediately. A lot of these warnings came from the high frequency generated by these pulses. Early PWM( Pulse Width Modulation) was sluggish and very noisy. You could hear the pulses like a speaker through the motors. Which generated heat.. now things have advanced to the point where you don't even notice those tones anymore. The frequency is much higher and not detected by human ear ( as much anyway). So you may ask why use PWM... well like traditional linear DC... something has to soak up all that heat when blocking the flow of electrons when the motor is running slowly say 6 volts on a 12 volt power supply. Which is the need for the large heat sinks and rather large controllers... running PWM... you just need a high frequency on and off switch that doesn't really need to absorb that amp draw because it's just turning off and on at a high rate and a higher voltage...less amps drawn... which is why dcc decoders can handle the .5 amp of current and fit in a quarter sized package using transistors typically in an H bridge fashion. So needless to say.. I'd say manufacturer warnings are outdated but a way to cover their butts... the PWM tech has came a long way from when it surfaced. And your video proves that! Nice job
Good video Harrison, I really like watchinbg your vids. Thank you.
Did anyone see the tiny spider go underneath the Athearn locomotive? Watch when the time is speeding by and you will see it by the front of the locomotive. You can see it start moving at 5:21.
@@chaotictrains1900 yep spotted it. Any larger and it would require having to burn down the layout
It looks like a cricket nymph
That's what the "SMT Mainline safety officer" arrow was pointed at, I don't know what kind those are but I've seen them around that part of the layout for years.
I used to make my HO locomotives sing by attaching the output of speakers to the rails. The locomotives would not movie but they would play music.
Hey Harrison I'm surprised you risked some locomotives for this video put it was nice seeing how reliable some of these older locomotives are
I had replacement motors ready to go but luckily even the worst motors pulled through.
I'm not overly shocked that nothing went up in smoke. It is also possible that DCC years ago wasn't as efficient as it is today. You are totally right the warnings are for legal reasons, like McD's putting a warning on their coffee cups that its hot, duh lol. Interesting video though I'm a DC guy. Having to figure out DCC wiring scares me not to mention the cost of changing all my DC engines to DCC.
I think some older DCC controllers were 16volt which would increase the chances a bit but I never had any burn up with my EZ command system anyway.
Appreciate your willing to sacrifice a couple of your locomotives thankfully nothing happened appreciate the video
No problem. I already had replacement motors ready to go since I was confident it would be the end of that old openframe, it turned out to be tougher then I thought. Gordon Varney would be proud.
Great video, Mr. Myth buster!!! 👍👍
I had done some similar eperiments in the past too and had seen the same results that you got. I also had not seen any motor problems when running locos with DC on much more longer times. Many of my locos from different manufactures had absolved 24/7 runs continuous during a few weeks too without any problems...😉
That's great to hear. I am starting to think most of the issues others have experienced are due to pre-existing motor issues which are amplified with constant voltage.
Great test 👍 love the Doggy too so cute 👍 Glad to see the kitty getting along too 👏
I've never had a motor of a DC loco be destroyed on DCC, but years ago when experimenting, I had a Bachmann USRA DC 2-6-2 with light and smoke generator running in DC mode (#10_ with a E-Z Command controller. It ran fine. But then when sitting in a powered siding with a DCC loco running, I noticed the wrong kind of smoke coming out of the smoke generator. 😱 Yes, the constant voltage meant that the headlight and smoke generator were still getting full power and the resulting heat had begun to melt the plastic smokestack. 😆 Fortunately, I managed to save it before any damage was done, other than a slightly tilted smokestack.
So yes, it's possible to run a DC loco on a DCC layout without damage. But it's not something that can be recommended. Some will be fine. But not all.
That's interesting... polystyrene starts to soften around 100ºC and that's a lot higher than SMT saw in his tests. Could it have been something specific to smoke generators?
@@CarlosSempereChen It was almost certainly the smoke generator which was very hot at the time. It had no smoke fluid in it either. The light bulb also generates a lot of heat. The two were close to each other.
I think the evaporation from the fluid is supposed to cool the coil so if it was running dry it might have happened on DC at wide open throttle too.
go DCC.. its cheaper in the long run and way more enjoyable....im part of the resurgence to the hobby, if your new or just starting like myself go DCC . i understand if your a veteran of the hobby and your already in DC but if your wondering which direction to go, go DCC,...its uncomparable, not even close,... more options , more realism, more FUN, and WAYYY less issues and problems,....love your channel.and you live just down the road in the big city
I don't think its cheaper but I agree DCC has many benefits
Love the video I’ve been subscribed for a while now keep up the good work 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Thank you!
Great video, greeting from Tennessee
Digital Command Control (DCC) was designed to control model trains by sending digital signals through the rails, allowing for multiple locomotives to operate independently on the same track. However, the compatibility of DCC systems with conventional DC (analog) HO scale locomotives is a bit nuanced.
Safety Concerns for DC Locomotives on DCC Systems
Running a conventional DC locomotive on a DCC system can be problematic. DCC systems send a constant digital signal (AC-like waveform) to the track, and this can cause a DC motor to overheat, hum, or even get damaged if left idle on the track for too long. This is because the motor interprets the DCC signal as a fluctuating voltage rather than the steady DC voltage it is designed for.
DCC Specification Regarding DC Locomotives
The official DCC specification (NMRA DCC Standards and Recommended Practices) does not explicitly state that DCC was designed to be safe with conventional DC locomotives. Instead, it focuses on how DCC should operate, with considerations for digital control and communication between decoders and the command station.
However, some DCC systems (known as "zero stretching" or "address 0" mode) allow a DC locomotive to be controlled on a DCC layout by manipulating the DCC signal to provide an average DC voltage. This is a workaround and not a feature inherent to the core DCC standard. Even in this mode, the safety and efficiency are not guaranteed for all DC locomotives.
Love the Conrail I have been looking for one for a while now
Here's what the NRMA DCC electrical specification says:
"Care should be taken to ensure that any motors exposed directly to the digital signal for extended periods have a stall rating that exceeds the amplitude of the signal, or sufficiently high impedance at 4-9 kHz to reduce the current to normal operating level. This appears to only be a concern for high-precision core-less can motors, which present a low impedance load, or for layouts using an NMRA digital signal with an amplitude in excess of ± 18 volts."
To see what is really happening just measure the current draw with a true rms multimeter that has a decent frequency response such as a Fluke 87. Most old dc motors will have an impedance over the DCC 4-9 kHz frequency range that is a lot higher than their dc resistance so will draw low current from DCC even though they are not turning compared to the current draw when running on DC. For example, a 60+ year old Hornby Dublo engine with a weak magnet that I tested draws around 500 mA running flat out on DC but sits making a slight buzzing noise drawing only 4 mA on the DCC output of a Digitrax DCS52 command station.
That's good to know. I haven't been able to get my multimeter to correctly read the voltage from my DCC controller so I wasn't sure if it would measure the amp draw correctly ether.
That is correct, their main concern was with use of instrument motors found in some models. I ran my Digitrax layout for some years when decoders were expensive using address 0 with many types of motors. No issues, although I never let them lie idle for any length of time on powered track. In fact I have seen far more decoders go up in smoke when friends would use them on DC controllers with spiky current supply.
I run DC most of the time, but nowadays I have about 6 sound fitted and 3 DCC locomotives. I have an old Hornby DCC select which is ancient and outdated nowadays, but it works, I can programme it and run basic functions. Thanks for this experiment. I'm way too scared to do this myself, but I fried a decoder myself when the voltage of the decoder was 16V and I ran the thing on 21V track 😅
decoders should be able to take 24 volts according to the spec if 21v killed it then its a terrible decoder
@@firestarspelt It was a Hornby one. But because I didn't have the instruction leaflet I had no idea. I have a few Hornby decoders and the controller I use outputs 16V DCC. I'll have a look if I made a mistake or smth before I put the locomotive on my friend's large layouts.
Most controllers I've seen are 16 volts or less but you would think they would over engineer them enough incase it somehow went above that.
@@SMTMainline Yeah I found out the hard way. Rip my Great Western Hall Class with sound. One day I'll replace it with a better decoder though and when I eventually buy a new controller I'll make sure to set it to 16V just to make sure. I have a few of the HM7000 Bluetooth decoders which I love, but I fried one back then as well when they were new and no-one knew if it was safe or not. The two I have are great, but yeah, I'm always looking for it in the instructions now to make sure
Im so happy that I got these statistics and understand DC vs. DCC a little bit more. Knowledge is power. Thank you so much.
I LOVE NERF CAT!!!! 🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰
Thanks, I'm glad you found it helpful.
Oh nice, I have Conrail 1651 as well. Not the most powerful thing out there but it definitely gets the job done
Very Educational watch this And You will Learn the Difference.
Thanks for all your time and work you put in to this for us and look at your results from it the only way I could see one of them burning up on you is if it was pulling a nice load behind it ( want to try it one more time for us with it pulling a 8-10 car load )😂😂😂 just a idea you don’t have to you did more than enough
I was wondering, since I have been out of this since 1980s, is there technology built into newest DDC locomotives that will allow them to detect DC controller versus DCC controller? I could have sworn I saw a demo of one that is DCC, but can run on regular DC controller too.
Very informative video, loved the takes of both pets during the running-under-load timelapse, glad to see they both get along well haha.
I'm honestly surprised with the Chesapeake and on-fire, I would've expected it to burn up, I'm also surprised with the Athearn, it's interesting to see that they got that warm..
I must say the DCS51 is able to run with analog locomotives so that might have a bit to do with the results? I'm curious as if a different controller would've given a different result
The pets are adjusting pretty well lately which I'm happy to see :) I was sure that Chesapeake and on-fire was gonna burn up myself, (it says it in the name lol) so much so that I already had a replacement motor ready to go. I guess despite being already compromised the old bugger still has a little more fight than expected lol. I did some research before hand and most DCC controllers seem to operate between 14 and 16 volts with a maximum output of 1 to 2 amps. I used to use a Bachmann EZ command which was 16volts with a maximum output of 1 amp - despite the higher voltage I don't recall any of my DC locomotives failing on that one ether.
good info. Thanks, Harrison
Awesome test Harrison and cute dog too!
I thought the Chesapeake and on fire was going to live up to its name. I was pleasantly surprised it didn't. Thanks.
@@shelleycogswell2162 You and me both. Considering the motor is already compromised I was confident failure would occur quickly - I guess it was tougher than I thought.
Thank you for putting my comment in the thumbnail!
Thanks for the idea!
Hi Harrison & it's is Randy and i like yours video is Cool & Thanks Harrison & Friends Randy
Excellent testing! And question!! How did you mount your MRC controller into the table?
One way to get the locos 🚂 heated up is to run them. With a Lionel ZW transformer of 275 watts.🚂
Very interesting experiment, nerff cat and the new puppy are so cute 👍
Maybe your particular brand of DCC throttle reduces the power to a DC locomotive to lessen the heat on the motor set up for DC. Paul Mallory, some 50+ years ago on his book on wiring a layout, explained the "Back EMF" made by a turning motor. Back EMF is what you get when current-carrying wire passes through a magnetic field, acting as a generator. It partially acts to reduce the current draw. Conversely, no rotation = no back EMF, which means maximum heat on the motor. I conclude that your mileage may vary, depending on your choice of DCC system..
The high current draw may cause a voltage drop although this controller is rated at 1.8 amps @14 volts which exceeds the Varney's maximum amp draw at the same voltage.
A very interesting experiment. It certainly puts my mind at ease about accidentally leaving a DC loco on the track while running DCC. On a somewhat related matter I’m wanting to consist a DC dummy with a DCC loco and I’m wondering if it will blow out the light board in the dummy. The lights burn very brightly but so far so good. Maybe adding a resistor in the circuit would be a good idea?
Adding a resistor probably would be a good idea. Most lights are 12 volts and DCC usually runs between 14 and 16 volts which will shorten the lifespan of the bulb.
Do you have any videos comparing current draw from each era /brand of locomotives? Your experience and knowledge of this would be priceless.
I haven't but that's a good idea. A good general rule is that a modern locomotive with a heathy motor draws around 1 or 2/10ths of an amp, an older heathy motor draws around 1/4th of an amp.
@@SMTMainline Thanks, I have a couple of Athearn band drives that are absolute current hogs then. They seem to be consistent with each other and not overheating though. I was curious because after fixing about 12 of these things so far ( I love each and every ugly one) I was noticing differences and didn't really know what the "norm" was. It seems these things are like snowflakes , each one can be crazy different depending on the life it had.
@@useruser-oc8xn Maintenance history certainly plays a role. They are usually loud, inefficient but rarely all together fail
random quesiton but where did u find the copyright free music to use? lol
Its from the youtube music library, you can see what songs were used beside the description.
freedom units!! very accurate
Very interesting video Harrison
Thanks for the great info. Love your cat!!!
I thought for a second I was watching the Project Farm channel. I like running my DC steam trains on DCC because the smoke units works great. But I don’t do it for long or very often. It’s that buzzing sound that freaks me out.
I like project farm, I can see the similarity in this video
Cool little H.O. scale cat you have climbing on the track at the 5:23 minute mark.
Yeah, from what I've seen it's always been more of a long-term issue. Running a DC locomotive on a DCC layout is fine for short term running, in fact many DCC systems come with a mode that lets you run a single DC locomotive on address 0 or 1 (depending on the manufacturer) alongside a fleet of DCC locomotives. But you don't want to leave the DC locomotive on the layout for long periods of time.
I believe Lenz first developed that operation mode, it was a big selling point for LGB's semi-proprietary MTS system at the time. Of course, G-scale motors are much better at handling this.
I'm not sure - I did believe that idling on DC would cause failure quickly but in terms of running locomotives I did so for years (on a 16volt Bachmann system) and non of them failed. I still have all those same locomotives and they are all still in working order 12 years after the fact.
So I run a DCC locomotive on a DC controller. I’ve ran it on this controller for quite a while and I’d like to know if it’s safe to do that
Heat sample LOL your the best bro!!
I only run DC without sound because I am a deaf disabled veteran who does Southern railway in HO.
For me, it was actually pretty dangerous for one: BNSF 6630. I was testing my DCC system and somehow 6630 wandered onto DCC rails. I didn’t know it had decoder that was not enabled at the time and there was a massive electrical short. As a result, 6630 was damaged and could only run in reverse for a month. It was fixed and can run normally but now needs handrail repairs
It’s great to know cause knowledge is power 🧠 👍
Great test. I am curious to see how a dc steamer with its shell on will be on dcc.
DCC and DC the great question. My collection consists of almost 80 locomotives but of that number only 4 of them are DCC.
SMT, so I bought a locomotive that has DCC and the decoder says it’s one that runs with DC, and it burnt out, do you have any idea what could be the reason why?
Some DC controllers are prone to voltage spikes or use “pulse injection” which could do damage. If the motor was strained that could have caused it too.
@@SMTMainline ok thank you, if it helps I have a bachmann starter set controller
Love the video i just got my first dcc loco but im probably gonna stick with dc lol
I have both dc and dcc engines but I only have a dc basic layout because I am not sure how to put the wiring in to blocks etc
I have a few used diesel locomotives that I recently bought. Is there a way to find out if they are DC or DCC? Would a short test on a track be ok? And what would be a good DCC controller power pack to get?
If you put them on DCC power and they make a humming notice at idle like these ones did you'll know they are DC. In terms of controllers most people seem to get Digitrax or NCE.
DC and DCC locomotives.
Rat tail switch for chamber DC to DCC in a railroad layout.
Locomotives DC and DCC in N scale Atlas.
Locomotives DCC with sound N scale, Kato.