I actually love how arrangers play bass. I even used arranger to program a bass line and then play it back as a style because the pattern stayed very consistent without mistakes that can happen from playing it manually
- arrangers can't do walking bass lines! *turns on arranger* - oh shit, it actually can do walking bass lines. maybe I should have prepared for this video
First of all: what an amazing video! The introduction into different levels of bass playing was so informative and instructive for all those folks who are not bass players. Personally, it was ridiculously helpful to me. That being said, the bluffing of real bass lines (bass "level 4") by the arranger automatics was very obvious: it sort of starts a line but goes only half as far or even less and then goes back to the root note. So it's sort of a pseudo bass-line. Thumbs up for this video, it was super interesting and informative.
I play bass as well but, with my FEET. After years of classical and theater organ training it's been great being able to insert bass lines in a good Rock tune while keeping both hands on the keyboards. The StudioLogic MP117 is good but nothing beats a 25 or 32 pedal board. The only downside is transport for the 25s and 32s weight. The 32s are insanely heavy. Were I still playing regularly at 66, I'd build one out of carbon fiber. It would be worth every hour spent.
From a player's perspective, I get your point. However, from the keyboard's perspective, it doesn't know what your next chord will be nor when it will be triggered. How can it "lead into" the next part of a sequence it hasn't experienced yet? To address this issue, some arranger keyboards now come with the ability (awkward and difficult) to program your own sequences and patterns.
Okay, I won't disagree with you, although I've never really thought about this. Then again, I'm not really a 'musician', I'm just someone who plays my arranger keyboard for the enjoyment of playing. I haven't watched the full video yet, but when you got to level three, you started in on something that any Arranger is just not capable of doing, and that was anticipating the next chord. It is not possible for any arranger to know what the next chord is going to be until you play it, and by then, the notes are shifting. Now, Korg does do something that Yamaha and insofar as I know, neither Casio nor Roland do, and that's different patterns for different chord types. Korg will recognize up to six different chord types, major, minor, seventh, augment, diminished and sixth (IIRC), and IF those styles have been programmed with different patters for each chord type, they'll change the notes played. So, a major chord may play one bass pattern, and a minor chord, a different pattern. BUT, it can't anticipate what chord or chord type is coming next, which takes away any individualistic styles. Now, on the other hand, PG Music's Band In A Box WILL know what the upcoming chord will be and can be intelligent enough to create 'transitions' between one chord and another. But, you can't play it real time. So, draw backs on either part. Anyway, I have to run, so I'll try to get back and finish your video this afternoon.
I agree so far - Greetings from a bass player that started playing arranger keyboard this summer - Like the arranger keyboard, also not one bass player in the world could make a bass line leading to the next chord if he has NO idea, where and what the next chord is. Not better as an arranger keyboard. The arranger keyboard is every second ready for ANY change to happen, so to me . Interesting in the video was the increase on bass lines from 1 to 4. 3 and 4 had astonishing bass lines :-)
@@bobcorn the people who write the styles tend to become more 'busy' as the variations change. When I started with arrangers, they didn't really write song styles that were song specific. Today, it seems that many of the styles ARE very much for specific songs, and I can understand that. If you're looking to replicate a specific song, you want a style that matches the song as closely as possible without violating copyright laws. But, if you're trying to create you own songs, you want a more generic style, at least for the beginning stages. But, yes, the style creators will use more complex bass patterns as the variations get more complex, just as a real bass player would. This is especially true on the jazz style, at least on my very old arranger keyboard.
This is interesting. I’d expect the state-of-the-art would be farther along here. In fact, I imagine that the virtual musicians being able to pick up on patterns and start to anticipate chords after a couple of rounds without being pre-programmed-as experienced musicians could-would be possible today. Even detecting that you’re playing a standard should be possible. (“Ah…sounds like the ‘rhythm changes’. I’ll assume that until the band leader goes someplace else.”) There’d be some chance for awkwardness when you throw something unpredictable at them, but that’s true with real musicians too if you don’t give them a chart or other heads up. Even some amount of detecting and adapting styles based on your lead seems doable with today’s tech. It’s kind of crazy to me that neither Band-in-a-box or the arrangers (which are commanding some impressive prices) haven’t advanced as far as I would have expected since I last looked into both some decades ago.
Also keep in mind, arrengers provide full song possibilities. You can edit all variations for yourself.. I never did it on my Tyros2 because the built in and purchased styles are plenty enough for me but watched videos how to pre program a full custom song with patch collections and style variations. If you need AI bass player drummer etc, try Logic Pro 11 ;).
Thanks Woody. the Genos and PA5X are reasonable, but I still prefer to use bass pedals (Studio logic) for slower styles ... I can't do fast bass lines with my foot
you are right in many cases...but it depends on many aspects....if you buy an arranger for around 5000usd you are mostly not a beginner, and you expect the board to play fairly good in most "departements", it also varies from brand to brand, -- you said that the board cheats, but YOU can also cheat the board! - i have noticed in some cases you can "force" the bass to play somewhat different, especially "stretching" the chords with your pinkie in some cases!
I disagree with the fact arrangers can not play great basslines and that drums can sound great too.. Folks are relying on factory styles.. The top models _(especially Roland) has the capabilities to alter or write changes for each chord, also each variation, and fills. If you can play great lefthand bass, there is no reason you can not write great styles.
It isn’t just arranger *keyboards* where bass lines suck. - even the software arranger app Band-In-A-Box fails miserably- at least when doing jazz walking bass lines. And that’s EVEN with bass parts literally recorded ( then transposed, chopped up and re-stitched together again during arrangement process ) by double bass jazz legends such as Ron Carter!. I’ve pestered PG Music about this for years to no avail.
Arrangers are immediate sit down and play idea mode instruments. They aren’t really designed for precision. I am slightly of the opposite opinion though when it comes drums there are virtually zero plugins out there when it comes to drum machines with intro123 fill 123 ending 123. Sick of spending hours programming all the drums and fills from scratch. It’s a burden. The only success i have had in that space is with ipad apps, Lumbeats rock drummer and funk drummer and jazz drummer. 😂 some people use beatbuddy pedal by singular sound. Anyone know of any others with dedicated intro fill variation ending buttons ?
I’ve been saying for years that the bass part has always been the Achilles heel of arranger keyboards. Even the top pro models too. When writing music on arrangers, I’ll utilize styles (typically with heavy editing to the style), but I always record the bass track manually. The only time I use the bass within a style is just for real-time play/rehearsal.
Dan, as you know, Roland can have different bass lines for different chords.. I add the lead in walking bass on my seventh chords... You can also add the lead ins with fills.
Great insightful video Woody! A little AI would help these keyboards. Voice leading could be programmed in them. I have Logic 11 which has session players so we will see how that software might help us create better music. I always wondered why Band In The Box can’t really do ‘real-time jamming like you can on these arranger keyboards. I haven’t used BIAB in ages so can that software jam with you to help your ideas come out?
like mentioned by Woody, the keybord don't know, which cord will be played at next. And if a sequence is programmed, only the sequencer knows, what the next chord is (but not the style creation part). I know only to possibilty to use differendt patterns by different cord types (e.g. dur, mol, 7th). My 1990 GEM DSK100 e.g. can that at some styles. I assume, the majority of arranger keyboards users have no problem with fixed bass pattern.
Hello Woody, as far as I know, Korg keyboards have a manual Bass function where you can play your own Bass with each accompaniment rhythm, which solves the problem, I think, what you are looking for.
yeah, they do. good point. but my argument that arrangers can't play bass still holds then, as then you are basically turning it off and doing it yourself :)
Hello Woody, have you tried setting the Chord recognition to Fingered one note so you can play your usual chords chords and add in passing bass notes, just an idea!
thanks, but don't thank that helps, since that just tells the arranger to do it's usual patterns, but with a different root note. but maybe more experimentation needed.
@@WoodyPianoShack Woody, in this video you PRECISELY explained the issue with real-time playing on any Arranger! As I'm a Beginner of a few years, I'm becoming more aware, and noticing things like this, as I try to improve. Yes, same problem with Band in a Box, it's fixed pattern based. One "improvement" (not necessarily a "solution") is to use a Left Hand playing technique that is very ably demonstrated by Alois Mueller, on his RUclips channel. It's in German, but Closed Captions do a good enough job to understand what he's doing, on both the PA5X and Genos keyboards. His main recommendation is to use either "Fingered" mode, or "Fingered on Bass", and avoid using "AI Fingered" mode. The so-called AI mode responds to a single note, or to 2 notes, and throws off the chord, whereas the other 2 modes DO allow you to play 1 note, or 2 notes, without changing the chord. It's at least a pretty good workaround, and Alois has many demos of it on his channel.
For the walking lines the programmer chose to remain in the tonic because they didn’t know what the next chord would be. Musicians who know the music will, as you say, lead into the next chord. Maybe someday arranger keyboards will have integrated AI that gets a sense of what you’re playing and adjusts its patterns and styles to anticipate the next chords, the way LLMs do with words.
Most of the patterns are basic to intermediate; haven't got to creating my own styles in the Pa5X, but IIRC, it's possible...at which point I ask myself, should I just do songs/parts/arrangements in my workstation instead.... What are your thoughts about the Pa5X vs the Genos 2? FWIW, I considered both, and purchased the Pa5X-76
I believe the functionality you are looking for can be achieved with better style programming. If you edit one of these styles you will see that you can program different patterns into different chord types, such as major, minor and, if I’m not wrong, for sevenths too. So if you are in a major chord with the bass doing 1 and 5, if you add the seventh to the chord it will do a walk. I know that the Roland arrangers can do that. I have to check my Pa5x for the seventh note, but I’m pretty sure it can be done for major and minor.
My DGX-670 (among a few select/other Yamaha arrangers) has a feature where you can have the chord detection area be moved with the right hand so your left hand can be used to play bass lines. So that's one way I know of to get better bass. Another way which I believe to be (even ever slightly) superior would be to get a MIDI controller that assumes the form and shape of organ bass pedals and find a way to connect that to the keyboard and use your feet to provide the bass. A third solution I've thought of, which is likely the most controversial, would be to program some AI into the arrangers to help the arranger system sound a bit more convincing (mainly for bass, but this can be applied to keyboard instrument and guitar parts, too.)
When a band plays a song, the base player will know the chord sequences for that song. The arranger does not know which next chord you will pick next, so can not anticipate on that unknown before you selected it. If so it could predict what your next chord would be. So it can only do one of the preprogrammed sequences at a chosen variation 1 .... 4.
Arranger Keyboards are helpful tools i often have used on in the past , to help when playing for parties , covers etc. Or just cheesy background music in restaurants. Korg were very useful in those scenarios .They are great for lift music.
yeah true, basically turning off the arranger part and playing it yourself, so at this stage, might be worth considering not using the arranger at all ;)
@@WoodyPianoShackArrangers like the Ketron Event offer manual bass as well as embedding live audio bass loops (including root notes) into the style that sound very authentic. You can even add guitar and drum loops to the style mix
My dad was making the same complaint about his arranger in the late 80s. But they are certainly better now- or at least there are more variations. (Although I think his was more of a high end keyboard with auto-accompaniment rather than an arranger as they are now.)
These predefined bass patterns probably add to the cheeseness of arrangers? Seems Korg is handling them quite well. As you said, since the keyboard can't know what and when you're playing next, it has to 'play it safe'. Since you are a bass player you spot this easily, for the rest of us it sounds mostly ok (or cheesy :D )
The main problem I encounter with arranger styles is that you need very complicated fingering on the left hand to generate interesting harmonies. Using all five fingers can do some but very impossible to just move the bass line to a different note say the chord keeps playing C and C on bass, then move only the bass line to E for example while the chord keeps playing the C chord. I know arranger keyboards can do this if you play the styles on the whole range of the keyboard and using your right hand to play the chord and the left hand using only one finger to play the bass note you want, but then you need another arm (with hands and fingers) to play the melody. The solution is to connect a midi pedal board so your left foot can play or direct which note to play while your left hand plays the chords and the right hand the melody. In that case, your set up would look like a single keyboard church organ but it will get the job done, if you are willing to pay for those pedal boards which are so darn expensive. Don't get me wrong, high-end arrangers are fun to play and very portable. For now, my not so portable solution for playing chord and bass separately and still sound like an arranger is on a YAMAHA Electone, the newer ones starting with the EL series. Their latest model is the Yamaha Electone ELA-1. It's practically a Yamaha PSR SX-600 with 2 keyboards (Upper and Lower manual) and a pedal board, speaker and bench and It's not as expensive as a Genos and although not a Genos, it can play chord and bass separately via styles. Sadly you can only have it by direct import from Japan like TARO's Trade. I think A.I. is coming to styles soon and we ain't seen nothing yet. I predict that one of its features would be for us to just load a song you want in MP3 or other audio format, and the A.I. style generator will separate the tracks in stems and program the styles automatically filling all 3 intros, 4 variations and 3 endings and break with content that's ready to play within minutes. That would blow me away!
Well the old roland E86 had futures that i never see back on the new generation keyboards. For every part of the arranger style .....1e could be controled by volume+/- or mute ....2e every part of the style could be edit /remove or ad notes into sequencer(looper)mode.... div. maj-min chord and vari ...3e easly to change the type sound or drumkit .Main because every part had is controle buttons on the left section of the controle panel (part1-to part8) Well now the big arrangers has faders that can be adresed to the arranger parts a lot is still hidden into the menu's and does not have realtime controle Many style's are full programed and way to busy to copy a full arranged song not give you room for your one play (only old-school lefthand chords/right hand easy melodie is the standaard) Real-time Controle the band give so much more dynamic into the play . I miss that!!!!!!! strip-down a arranger style and play more by your self is the next level of being a pro keyboard player..... The go:keys3 and 5 offering a lot of new futures (sequensing- chord looper ect) but were are the real time BUTTONS/SLIDER/POTMETER to live controle? About the Bass with the old E86 you could use the arranger automatic playing and re-programe the Bass loop into some more pro-natural bass playing
Slightly related. There are loads of great virtual synths and logic and GarageBand but do you know of any arranger type apps that your midi keyboard can play through an iPad or pc?
Interesting topic you bring to the table and well presented. I agree, well programmed AI can do wonders for the next generation of arrangers in terms of interacting with the musician. Not only that, I can also see AI breathing life into tracks recorded in a DAW in many ways. That is something I see as a positive development, AI in the role of musical assistant rather than a ‘replacement of’.
As a kid in the 80's, I was exposed to a lot of schlager music, courtesy of my beloved mother. What sort of fascinates me about it now is that those schlager arrangements were done with musicians playing actual bass, drums etc, yet it all somehow still managed to sound like it was made on an arranger keyboard. Of course, these were the times before the arrangers, but sometimes I wonder if the arranger keyboard makers are still living in that meticulous, over-precise 4/4 mindset and mining those same robotic rhythm patterns. This is one of the reasons why I am really so thrilled to hear music from some of the younger artists. Specifically, it was Phoebe Bridger's album "Punisher" and its more innovative uses of bass, drums, strings and other instrumentation that really showed me that things could really be played/recorded in a way that would sound fresh to the ears.
There were some arranger style things even back then, the Mellotron could play accompaniments already in 1965, and especially its Cha-Cha-Cha pattern is found in a lot of 70s pop music.
Down to earth thinking brother Woody.!! My line of wishfull thinking on how keyboards of high genre should be designed : a fully customable base, rythmn drum and other add on voices to be replacing those not so human preset hard wired electtonic band members accompanying me as a keyboard player. That really never has come about ! Is there a keyboard that leaves the styles and rythmns well up to the user to invent for himself. The user then will have a fine list of repertoirs that he can relate to and will anticipate his next move, since he has personally directed their paths to synch with his..... utopia!! Find me one that can do this Woody!
Good example... Dave Hope, original Bassist for the band Kansas playing the beginning of Magnum Opus on Kansas's Leftoverture album. Can't play solo's on an arranger.
I think you didnt see that you have different modes, p.e. Fingered on bass etc. to play more authentic bass. You can allways play bass add. left hand while playing styles. Then you can make your own styles or only add a new bassline in the style. Then you can create midi to style with the past model 4X an authentic style, very easy if you want. What sucks for you and others are the onboard prigrammed styles, but you are free in all to change everything you need espacially with Korg Arr. They can more, you showed, a lot more. The Manual of the 4X is 1300 pages. The Manual of the Hydrasynth is ? The Hammond SKPro? Did you recognize the differents? What you want can be realized with a Korg Arr but I think not in the same by Yamaha, but this I only read, I didnt own one. So refer more in the manual and try more of what the Korg delivers.
i've of course tried all the modes! what you are saying I think confirms my opinion, that to get good bass lines, you need to turn off the bass part and play it yourself :)
I think, you see it from the wrong side. The styles have to be universal. What you expect is a special you want, and you can do, but for that you have to work for. To be as universal as possible its needed to do what you tell as "this sucks". But Why you dont take a Midifile with all you like and convert it into a style. This is very easy to to with Pa4X Models. I did it several times. And you have then a specific style, that isnt universal to use as the factory styles. All possible. And I think you tell about not Arranger Keyboard playing, but this means, you have to play bass your own, there is no automatic that does it. Why can I understand that you try to tell, that for this an Arranger is worse? You can exactly do the same that the hammond do with the same solution. But why is then an Arranger sucking, the Hammond not? You dont like the technique of style programming, ok! You mustnt use it, but you can. The Hammond cant! You do a lot of good stuff I think, many thanks for this, but an Arranger simulate a Band, played by 1 Person. And then someone then try to compare it with a full band, this is not correct. An Arranger cant deliver it, because it use automatic bandplaying phrases instead of individual music playing musicians. But if you accept the restrictions of this, you get a new category of Keyboard Instruments. Try to play Akkordeon. You will see, that the bass side can do a lot, but not all what a Piano or organ can do. But the bass side is a great construction to play as a one man band without electric. And its very portable compared with a piano or Organ! Every instruments has its right position, to be correct used. No one wants a Hammond Organ to be played in a street walking music group!
Your right Woody, it's too perfect and pattern repetition makes the baselines sterile. No matter how complex the pattern, if there is no break in the pattern and no subtlety, it's easy to tell it's an electronic bass pattern.
I think modern arranger should slowly link to the internet cloud. User pick a style/sound pack, play the chord or pre enter chord sequence. The data is uploaded to the cloud platform, AI quick did analysis and return with a more human style playback in return. AI analyse midi should be pretty efficient and fast to done by AI. Band in a box should really be enhanced with AI.
I'm i the onlu one who missed this JJazzlab open source arranger application these past few years? Since it can do both psudo realtime and prearranged progressions i think this platform could have rhe potential to generate a killer walking bass ttack.
A real bass player knows what chords are coming up and can lead into them, but an arranger has no way of knowing that. The only way that “leading in” could possibly work would be if the chord pattern were programmed in advance. That is possible on some keyboards but I doubt even then that the bass would use that “knowledge” to adjust its patterns. And given the limitations, I think they can generally do a pretty good job. (P.S. I wrote this before seeing that you come to the same conclusion at the end if your video!)
I tend to have a slightly different take on this. The arranger only sucks at playing bass if it’s noob (in playing bass) sitting behind it 😂 I’m not pointing fingers at anyonere here btw 😅or at least if, would point it at myself too lol. It’ very possible with modern arrangers to get around the short commings of a poor programmed bass line by either learning how to treat the accomp. the right way, or if your skilled enough to play either organ pedals or finger bass just reasonable to sound like it’s a Pro bassist. Just requires rehearsal 😎 I do agree it takes time to learn, especially if you come from pure Piano or old school Organ style to get the arranger to behave just reasonable when used to use an often boringly left hand chord from the old 70 days of electronic home organs.
yep, some great feedback and points there! but i'm still right in my original statement, if you are playing bass yourself with pedals or left hand, then the arranger still sucks, it's just that you turned off that part and handle it yourself.
My musical brain is kinda wonky. All of those jazz chords, sour notes, and that base walking all over the place just drive my ears nuts. I can't stand it, it is just random notes, none of which seem to go together resulting in me cringing, and feeling an uncomfortable sourness in my gut. I guess a big part of why I am drawn to electronic music and synthesizers is that it is its very, sort of metallic sound, the very structured, geometric repeating patterns; it is, to me, the antithesis of jazz and blues and, to me that is a big plus.
Good observation Woody... That is indeed a downsize of arranger keyboards. But that is for factory styles. Bass line is playing by pattern. Programmed line. But here on Balkan, we go further. Because, arranger keyboards are very frequent. We do very advance user styles. Where bass line, drum line, rhythm guitar line, are played 8th bars. And than repeat in loop. That's why we call that styles loop style. You should check some of top creator's, PA production, Mrcko and etc. Also, check (at the moment) the best arranger keyboards KETRON EVENT, where you have loop style already in factory, and recorded in wav format, by real musicians, with real instruments. Chear from Macedonia.
yeah, thanks for the comment, i am slightly aware that the balkan musicians are really pusing these instruments to their limits, and beyond! respect :) i have BIAB, with audio recordings of real musicians, but it still doesn't work very well, it can sound quite disjointed, always the problem when combining looped phrases
Come on manufactures we want you to step up, we want to do even less, LOL!!! The Korg iSeries used to have a bass inversion feature which would let you lead into the next chord of the song. Nice point on the bass though.
Arrangers will always remain limited in their ability to mimic the real thing...maybe in time AI in keyboards can help us. Till then...we need to rely on human talent to simply make it sound good live
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I actually love how arrangers play bass. I even used arranger to program a bass line and then play it back as a style because the pattern stayed very consistent without mistakes that can happen from playing it manually
- arrangers can't do walking bass lines!
*turns on arranger*
- oh shit, it actually can do walking bass lines. maybe I should have prepared for this video
First of all: what an amazing video! The introduction into different levels of bass playing was so informative and instructive for all those folks who are not bass players. Personally, it was ridiculously helpful to me.
That being said, the bluffing of real bass lines (bass "level 4") by the arranger automatics was very obvious: it sort of starts a line but goes only half as far or even less and then goes back to the root note. So it's sort of a pseudo bass-line.
Thumbs up for this video, it was super interesting and informative.
I play bass as well but, with my FEET. After years of classical and theater organ training it's been great being able to insert bass lines in a good Rock tune while keeping both hands on the keyboards. The StudioLogic MP117 is good but nothing beats a 25 or 32 pedal board. The only downside is transport for the 25s and 32s weight. The 32s are insanely heavy. Were I still playing regularly at 66, I'd build one out of carbon fiber. It would be worth every hour spent.
From a player's perspective, I get your point. However, from the keyboard's perspective, it doesn't know what your next chord will be nor when it will be triggered. How can it "lead into" the next part of a sequence it hasn't experienced yet? To address this issue, some arranger keyboards now come with the ability (awkward and difficult) to program your own sequences and patterns.
Okay, I won't disagree with you, although I've never really thought about this. Then again, I'm not really a 'musician', I'm just someone who plays my arranger keyboard for the enjoyment of playing. I haven't watched the full video yet, but when you got to level three, you started in on something that any Arranger is just not capable of doing, and that was anticipating the next chord. It is not possible for any arranger to know what the next chord is going to be until you play it, and by then, the notes are shifting.
Now, Korg does do something that Yamaha and insofar as I know, neither Casio nor Roland do, and that's different patterns for different chord types. Korg will recognize up to six different chord types, major, minor, seventh, augment, diminished and sixth (IIRC), and IF those styles have been programmed with different patters for each chord type, they'll change the notes played. So, a major chord may play one bass pattern, and a minor chord, a different pattern. BUT, it can't anticipate what chord or chord type is coming next, which takes away any individualistic styles.
Now, on the other hand, PG Music's Band In A Box WILL know what the upcoming chord will be and can be intelligent enough to create 'transitions' between one chord and another. But, you can't play it real time. So, draw backs on either part.
Anyway, I have to run, so I'll try to get back and finish your video this afternoon.
I agree so far - Greetings from a bass player that started playing arranger keyboard this summer -
Like the arranger keyboard, also not one bass player in the world could make a bass line leading to the next chord if he has NO idea, where and what the next chord is. Not better as an arranger keyboard.
The arranger keyboard is every second ready for ANY change to happen, so to me .
Interesting in the video was the increase on bass lines from 1 to 4. 3 and 4 had astonishing bass lines :-)
@@bobcorn the people who write the styles tend to become more 'busy' as the variations change. When I started with arrangers, they didn't really write song styles that were song specific. Today, it seems that many of the styles ARE very much for specific songs, and I can understand that. If you're looking to replicate a specific song, you want a style that matches the song as closely as possible without violating copyright laws. But, if you're trying to create you own songs, you want a more generic style, at least for the beginning stages. But, yes, the style creators will use more complex bass patterns as the variations get more complex, just as a real bass player would. This is especially true on the jazz style, at least on my very old arranger keyboard.
This is interesting. I’d expect the state-of-the-art would be farther along here. In fact, I imagine that the virtual musicians being able to pick up on patterns and start to anticipate chords after a couple of rounds without being pre-programmed-as experienced musicians could-would be possible today. Even detecting that you’re playing a standard should be possible. (“Ah…sounds like the ‘rhythm changes’. I’ll assume that until the band leader goes someplace else.”) There’d be some chance for awkwardness when you throw something unpredictable at them, but that’s true with real musicians too if you don’t give them a chart or other heads up. Even some amount of detecting and adapting styles based on your lead seems doable with today’s tech. It’s kind of crazy to me that neither Band-in-a-box or the arrangers (which are commanding some impressive prices) haven’t advanced as far as I would have expected since I last looked into both some decades ago.
Also keep in mind, arrengers provide full song possibilities. You can edit all variations for yourself.. I never did it on my Tyros2 because the built in and purchased styles are plenty enough for me but watched videos how to pre program a full custom song with patch collections and style variations. If you need AI bass player drummer etc, try Logic Pro 11 ;).
Thanks Woody. the Genos and PA5X are reasonable, but I still prefer to use bass pedals (Studio logic) for slower styles ... I can't do fast bass lines with my foot
respect to anybody playing pedal bass, no matter the speed!
you are right in many cases...but it depends on many aspects....if you buy an arranger for around 5000usd you are mostly not a beginner, and you expect the board to play fairly good in most "departements", it also varies from brand to brand, -- you said that the board cheats, but YOU can also cheat the board! - i have noticed in some cases you can "force" the bass to play somewhat different, especially "stretching" the chords with your pinkie in some cases!
I disagree with the fact arrangers can not play great basslines and that drums can sound great too.. Folks are relying on factory styles.. The top models _(especially Roland) has the capabilities to alter or write changes for each chord, also each variation, and fills. If you can play great lefthand bass, there is no reason you can not write great styles.
I'm very proud of my left hand bass playing as well. Hearing these samples I agree 100%
It isn’t just arranger *keyboards* where bass lines suck. - even the software arranger app Band-In-A-Box fails miserably- at least when doing jazz walking bass lines. And that’s EVEN with bass parts literally recorded ( then transposed, chopped up and re-stitched together again during arrangement process ) by double bass jazz legends such as Ron Carter!. I’ve pestered PG Music about this for years to no avail.
This was 14mins of me anticipating the Seinfeld theme to get snuck in and being frustrated! LOL.
Arrangers are immediate sit down and play idea mode instruments. They aren’t really designed for precision. I am slightly of the opposite opinion though when it comes drums there are virtually zero plugins out there when it comes to drum machines with intro123 fill 123 ending 123. Sick of spending hours programming all the drums and fills from scratch. It’s a burden. The only success i have had in that space is with ipad apps, Lumbeats rock drummer and funk drummer and jazz drummer. 😂 some people use beatbuddy pedal by singular sound. Anyone know of any others with dedicated intro fill variation ending buttons ?
I’ve been saying for years that the bass part has always been the Achilles heel of arranger keyboards. Even the top pro models too. When writing music on arrangers, I’ll utilize styles (typically with heavy editing to the style), but I always record the bass track manually. The only time I use the bass within a style is just for real-time play/rehearsal.
Dan, as you know, Roland can have different bass lines for different chords.. I add the lead in walking bass on my seventh chords... You can also add the lead ins with fills.
@@Fran6230 Hey Fran, been a long time. How’ve you been?
Great insightful video Woody! A little AI would help these keyboards. Voice leading could be programmed in them. I have Logic 11 which has session players so we will see how that software might help us create better music. I always wondered why Band In The Box can’t really do ‘real-time jamming like you can on these arranger keyboards. I haven’t used BIAB in ages so can that software jam with you to help your ideas come out?
like mentioned by Woody, the keybord don't know, which cord will be played at next. And if a sequence is programmed, only the sequencer knows, what the next chord is (but not the style creation part). I know only to possibilty to use differendt patterns by different cord types (e.g. dur, mol, 7th). My 1990 GEM DSK100 e.g. can that at some styles.
I assume, the majority of arranger keyboards users have no problem with fixed bass pattern.
Hello Woody, as far as I know, Korg keyboards have a manual Bass function where you can play your own Bass with each accompaniment rhythm, which solves the problem, I think, what you are looking for.
yeah, they do. good point. but my argument that arrangers can't play bass still holds then, as then you are basically turning it off and doing it yourself :)
I agree Woody, always tune into the bass-line with music, no doubt because my Dad was a bass player and so I grew up with it.
That's why you need the Event with live bass and better samples articulation.
Hello Woody, have you tried setting the Chord recognition to Fingered one note so you can play your usual chords chords and add in passing bass notes, just an idea!
thanks, but don't thank that helps, since that just tells the arranger to do it's usual patterns, but with a different root note. but maybe more experimentation needed.
@@WoodyPianoShack Woody, in this video you PRECISELY explained the issue with real-time playing on any Arranger! As I'm a Beginner of a few years, I'm becoming more aware, and noticing things like this, as I try to improve. Yes, same problem with Band in a Box, it's fixed pattern based. One "improvement" (not necessarily a "solution") is to use a Left Hand playing technique that is very ably demonstrated by Alois Mueller, on his RUclips channel. It's in German, but Closed Captions do a good enough job to understand what he's doing, on both the PA5X and Genos keyboards. His main recommendation is to use either "Fingered" mode, or "Fingered on Bass", and avoid using "AI Fingered" mode. The so-called AI mode responds to a single note, or to 2 notes, and throws off the chord, whereas the other 2 modes DO allow you to play 1 note, or 2 notes, without changing the chord. It's at least a pretty good workaround, and Alois has many demos of it on his channel.
For the walking lines the programmer chose to remain in the tonic because they didn’t know what the next chord would be.
Musicians who know the music will, as you say, lead into the next chord. Maybe someday arranger keyboards will have integrated AI that gets a sense of what you’re playing and adjusts its patterns and styles to anticipate the next chords, the way LLMs do with words.
7:40 Try Expert mode to force the bass line a bit.
The technics kn1000 has some groovey bassline
So, first note of a walking bass is a root note of a chord, and then it it „walking” into the root note of the next chord, right?
Very interesting.
Thank you.
Most of the patterns are basic to intermediate; haven't got to creating my own styles in the Pa5X, but IIRC, it's possible...at which point I ask myself, should I just do songs/parts/arrangements in my workstation instead....
What are your thoughts about the Pa5X vs the Genos 2?
FWIW, I considered both, and purchased the Pa5X-76
Interesting, my question is do you prefer to Genos 2 or the Korg?
too deep of a topic to answer (100 times) in a comment!
@@WoodyPianoShack Maybe we will see a comparison video down the line? 🤔
if ever your flickering (led) is disturbing you…maybe try the nikon z9 Or z8…this should help :-)
I believe the functionality you are looking for can be achieved with better style programming. If you edit one of these styles you will see that you can program different patterns into different chord types, such as major, minor and, if I’m not wrong, for sevenths too. So if you are in a major chord with the bass doing 1 and 5, if you add the seventh to the chord it will do a walk. I know that the Roland arrangers can do that. I have to check my Pa5x for the seventh note, but I’m pretty sure it can be done for major and minor.
My DGX-670 (among a few select/other Yamaha arrangers) has a feature where you can have the chord detection area be moved with the right hand so your left hand can be used to play bass lines. So that's one way I know of to get better bass.
Another way which I believe to be (even ever slightly) superior would be to get a MIDI controller that assumes the form and shape of organ bass pedals and find a way to connect that to the keyboard and use your feet to provide the bass.
A third solution I've thought of, which is likely the most controversial, would be to program some AI into the arrangers to help the arranger system sound a bit more convincing (mainly for bass, but this can be applied to keyboard instrument and guitar parts, too.)
good shout on the manual bass mode, that's a good one. yeah, if any technology needs AI, it's arranger keyboards!
When a band plays a song, the base player will know the chord sequences for that song. The arranger does not know which next chord you will pick next, so can not anticipate on that unknown before you selected it. If so it could predict what your next chord would be. So it can only do one of the preprogrammed sequences at a chosen variation 1 .... 4.
Arranger Keyboards are helpful tools i often have used on in the past , to help when playing for parties , covers etc. Or just cheesy background music in restaurants. Korg were very useful in those scenarios .They are great for lift music.
thanks for the video. A solution would be "manual base" with a manual play with the left hand😀
yeah true, basically turning off the arranger part and playing it yourself, so at this stage, might be worth considering not using the arranger at all ;)
@@WoodyPianoShackArrangers like the Ketron Event offer manual bass as well as embedding live audio bass loops (including root notes) into the style that sound very authentic. You can even add guitar and drum loops to the style mix
My dad was making the same complaint about his arranger in the late 80s. But they are certainly better now- or at least there are more variations. (Although I think his was more of a high end keyboard with auto-accompaniment rather than an arranger as they are now.)
These predefined bass patterns probably add to the cheeseness of arrangers? Seems Korg is handling them quite well. As you said, since the keyboard can't know what and when you're playing next, it has to 'play it safe'. Since you are a bass player you spot this easily, for the rest of us it sounds mostly ok (or cheesy :D )
haha, good summary of the issue here :)
The main problem I encounter with arranger styles is that you need very complicated fingering on the left hand to generate interesting harmonies. Using all five fingers can do some but very impossible to just move the bass line to a different note say the chord keeps playing C and C on bass, then move only the bass line to E for example while the chord keeps playing the C chord. I know arranger keyboards can do this if you play the styles on the whole range of the keyboard and using your right hand to play the chord and the left hand using only one finger to play the bass note you want, but then you need another arm (with hands and fingers) to play the melody. The solution is to connect a midi pedal board so your left foot can play or direct which note to play while your left hand plays the chords and the right hand the melody. In that case, your set up would look like a single keyboard church organ but it will get the job done, if you are willing to pay for those pedal boards which are so darn expensive. Don't get me wrong, high-end arrangers are fun to play and very portable. For now, my not so portable solution for playing chord and bass separately and still sound like an arranger is on a YAMAHA Electone, the newer ones starting with the EL series. Their latest model is the Yamaha Electone ELA-1. It's practically a Yamaha PSR SX-600 with 2 keyboards (Upper and Lower manual) and a pedal board, speaker and bench and It's not as expensive as a Genos and although not a Genos, it can play chord and bass separately via styles. Sadly you can only have it by direct import from Japan like TARO's Trade.
I think A.I. is coming to styles soon and we ain't seen nothing yet. I predict that one of its features would be for us to just load a song you want in MP3 or other audio format, and the A.I. style generator will separate the tracks in stems and program the styles automatically filling all 3 intros, 4 variations and 3 endings and break with content that's ready to play within minutes. That would blow me away!
Well the old roland E86 had futures that i never see back on the new generation keyboards. For every part of the arranger style .....1e could be controled by volume+/- or mute ....2e every part of the style could be edit /remove or ad notes into sequencer(looper)mode.... div. maj-min chord and vari ...3e easly to change the type sound or drumkit .Main because every part had is controle buttons on the left section of the controle panel (part1-to part8) Well now the big arrangers has faders that can be adresed to the arranger parts a lot is still hidden into the menu's and does not have realtime controle Many style's are full programed and way to busy to copy a full arranged song not give you room for your one play (only old-school lefthand chords/right hand easy melodie is the standaard) Real-time Controle the band give so much more dynamic into the play . I miss that!!!!!!! strip-down a arranger style and play more by your self is the next level of being a pro keyboard player..... The go:keys3 and 5 offering a lot of new futures (sequensing- chord looper ect) but were are the real time BUTTONS/SLIDER/POTMETER to live controle?
About the Bass with the old E86 you could use the arranger automatic playing and re-programe the Bass loop into some more pro-natural bass playing
Slightly related. There are loads of great virtual synths and logic and GarageBand but do you know of any arranger type apps that your midi keyboard can play through an iPad or pc?
nope, nothing afaik. you really need all the buttons and controls on an arranger to do performance, just won't work from a midi controller
Interesting topic you bring to the table and well presented.
I agree, well programmed AI can do wonders for the next generation of arrangers in terms of interacting with the musician.
Not only that, I can also see AI breathing life into tracks recorded in a DAW in many ways.
That is something I see as a positive development, AI in the role of musical assistant rather than a ‘replacement of’.
Very interesting indeed I agree 100%
As a kid in the 80's, I was exposed to a lot of schlager music, courtesy of my beloved mother. What sort of fascinates me about it now is that those schlager arrangements were done with musicians playing actual bass, drums etc, yet it all somehow still managed to sound like it was made on an arranger keyboard. Of course, these were the times before the arrangers, but sometimes I wonder if the arranger keyboard makers are still living in that meticulous, over-precise 4/4 mindset and mining those same robotic rhythm patterns. This is one of the reasons why I am really so thrilled to hear music from some of the younger artists. Specifically, it was Phoebe Bridger's album "Punisher" and its more innovative uses of bass, drums, strings and other instrumentation that really showed me that things could really be played/recorded in a way that would sound fresh to the ears.
There were some arranger style things even back then, the Mellotron could play accompaniments already in 1965, and especially its Cha-Cha-Cha pattern is found in a lot of 70s pop music.
Down to earth thinking brother Woody.!! My line of wishfull thinking on how keyboards of high genre should be designed : a fully customable base, rythmn drum and other add on voices to be replacing those not so human preset hard wired electtonic band members accompanying me as a keyboard player. That really never has come about ! Is there a keyboard that leaves the styles and rythmns well up to the user to invent for himself. The user then will have a fine list of repertoirs that he can relate to and will anticipate his next move, since he has personally directed their paths to synch with his..... utopia!! Find me one that can do this Woody!
wow what an excellent and topical comment as i recently made a video about this and will publish at the weekend!
The solution may be the ‚lowest-note-to-bass‘-function to support the doing of the keyboard
Good example... Dave Hope, original Bassist for the band Kansas playing the beginning of Magnum Opus on Kansas's Leftoverture album. Can't play solo's on an arranger.
I think you didnt see that you have different modes, p.e. Fingered on bass etc. to play more authentic bass.
You can allways play bass add. left hand while playing styles.
Then you can make your own styles or only add a new bassline in the style.
Then you can create midi to style with the past model 4X an authentic style, very easy if you want.
What sucks for you and others are the onboard prigrammed styles, but you are free in all to change everything you need espacially with Korg Arr.
They can more, you showed, a lot more.
The Manual of the 4X is 1300 pages.
The Manual of the Hydrasynth is ? The Hammond SKPro?
Did you recognize the differents?
What you want can be realized with a Korg Arr but I think not in the same by Yamaha, but this I only read, I didnt own one.
So refer more in the manual and try more of what the Korg delivers.
i've of course tried all the modes! what you are saying I think confirms my opinion, that to get good bass lines, you need to turn off the bass part and play it yourself :)
I think, you see it from the wrong side.
The styles have to be universal.
What you expect is a special you want, and you can do, but for that you have to work for.
To be as universal as possible its needed to do what you tell as "this sucks".
But Why you dont take a Midifile with all you like and convert it into a style.
This is very easy to to with Pa4X Models. I did it several times. And you have then a specific style, that isnt universal to use as the factory styles.
All possible.
And I think you tell about not Arranger Keyboard playing, but this means, you have to play bass your own, there is no automatic that does it.
Why can I understand that you try to tell, that for this an Arranger is worse?
You can exactly do the same that the hammond do with the same solution.
But why is then an Arranger sucking, the Hammond not?
You dont like the technique of style programming, ok!
You mustnt use it, but you can. The Hammond cant!
You do a lot of good stuff I think, many thanks for this, but an Arranger simulate a Band, played by 1 Person. And then someone then try to compare it with a full band, this is not correct.
An Arranger cant deliver it, because it use automatic bandplaying phrases instead of individual music playing musicians.
But if you accept the restrictions of this, you get a new category of Keyboard Instruments.
Try to play Akkordeon. You will see, that the bass side can do a lot, but not all what a Piano or organ can do.
But the bass side is a great construction to play as a one man band without electric. And its very portable compared with a piano or Organ!
Every instruments has its right position, to be correct used.
No one wants a Hammond Organ to be played in a street walking music group!
Interesting challenges indeed for a player. Makes one admire the days when Hammond-players were barefooting on foot-bass 🤸♀️✌ 😅
Your right Woody, it's too perfect and pattern repetition makes the baselines sterile. No matter how complex the pattern, if there is no break in the pattern and no subtlety, it's easy to tell it's an electronic bass pattern.
KORG Pa Have 1-6CV and you can make many things with it
I think modern arranger should slowly link to the internet cloud. User pick a style/sound pack, play the chord or pre enter chord sequence. The data is uploaded to the cloud platform, AI quick did analysis and return with a more human style playback in return. AI analyse midi should be pretty efficient and fast to done by AI. Band in a box should really be enhanced with AI.
yep, that is the obvious future path and would be great, but can't see it happening somehow.
I'm i the onlu one who missed this JJazzlab open source arranger application these past few years? Since it can do both psudo realtime and prearranged progressions i think this platform could have rhe potential to generate a killer walking bass ttack.
I thought the mod wheel/stick would come into play
A real bass player knows what chords are coming up and can lead into them, but an arranger has no way of knowing that. The only way that “leading in” could possibly work would be if the chord pattern were programmed in advance. That is possible on some keyboards but I doubt even then that the bass would use that “knowledge” to adjust its patterns. And given the limitations, I think they can generally do a pretty good job. (P.S. I wrote this before seeing that you come to the same conclusion at the end if your video!)
Nice tutorial my Friend 👍
I tend to have a slightly different take on this. The arranger only sucks at playing bass if it’s noob (in playing bass) sitting behind it 😂
I’m not pointing fingers at anyonere here btw 😅or at least if, would point it at myself too lol.
It’ very possible with modern arrangers to get around the short commings of a poor programmed bass line by either learning how to treat the accomp. the right way, or if your skilled enough to play either organ pedals or finger bass just reasonable to sound like it’s a Pro bassist. Just requires rehearsal 😎
I do agree it takes time to learn, especially if you come from pure Piano or old school Organ style to get the arranger to behave just reasonable when used to use an often boringly left hand chord from the old 70 days of electronic home organs.
yep, some great feedback and points there! but i'm still right in my original statement, if you are playing bass yourself with pedals or left hand, then the arranger still sucks, it's just that you turned off that part and handle it yourself.
My musical brain is kinda wonky. All of those jazz chords, sour notes, and that base walking all over the place just drive my ears nuts. I can't stand it, it is just random notes, none of which seem to go together resulting in me cringing, and feeling an uncomfortable sourness in my gut. I guess a big part of why I am drawn to electronic music and synthesizers is that it is its very, sort of metallic sound, the very structured, geometric repeating patterns; it is, to me, the antithesis of jazz and blues and, to me that is a big plus.
in fairness i find the basslines for pop.soul usually work much better than for jazz.
Good observation Woody... That is indeed a downsize of arranger keyboards. But that is for factory styles. Bass line is playing by pattern. Programmed line. But here on Balkan, we go further. Because, arranger keyboards are very frequent. We do very advance user styles. Where bass line, drum line, rhythm guitar line, are played 8th bars. And than repeat in loop. That's why we call that styles loop style. You should check some of top creator's, PA production, Mrcko and etc. Also, check (at the moment) the best arranger keyboards KETRON EVENT, where you have loop style already in factory, and recorded in wav format, by real musicians, with real instruments. Chear from Macedonia.
yeah, thanks for the comment, i am slightly aware that the balkan musicians are really pusing these instruments to their limits, and beyond! respect :) i have BIAB, with audio recordings of real musicians, but it still doesn't work very well, it can sound quite disjointed, always the problem when combining looped phrases
Come on manufactures we want you to step up, we want to do even less, LOL!!!
The Korg iSeries used to have a bass inversion feature which would let you lead into the next chord of the song.
Nice point on the bass though.
Arrangers will always remain limited in their ability to mimic the real thing...maybe in time AI in keyboards can help us. Till then...we need to rely on human talent to simply make it sound good live
There you are, you mentioned it, AI. Slowly he turned, step by step,....................
AI would be perfect for this issue.
And… they cannot play drums properly.
Wise man said:" The problem is not the keyboard! The problem sits in front of the keyboard!!!" 🤡👎
Arrangers suck playing odd-meter grooves!
Maybe you should just play with a real bass player. 😃
@@Rehbet and they drink all of your beer
None arranger keyboard knows the MODE of a chord, this is a future teller job...