Why Super Smash Bros. Ultimate is Losing Popularity
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- I hoped I would never have to make this video but in light of recent negative sentiments going all throughout the smash community right now, I felt like it was high time to talk about this. Let's discuss why Smash Ultimate is losing popularity.
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#SSBU #Nintendo #SmashUltimate
![[SSBU] Jumping is Overpowered](/img/1.gif)
I’m gonna say it. The death of the circuits was one of the biggest losses in the scene. Can’t believe we had two and both of them went down…
What’s the circuits
@@Dontannoyme34894VG boot camp was a big one
Community deserves all the blame for that. No reason Panda had to die. Community made their grave and they have to lie in it
@@smashmonkey6304not updated with the drama. What did the community do?
Same can be said for the twin towers
For me personally, I lost interest because the game just never felt like it had an end goal to keep me playing, the community got annoying, the terrible online, and the game just felt very binary in solutions to problems without much room for creativity and expression compared to some previous games.
Didn't expect to see someone mention this. This is absolutely the reason Melee is still around, not just because it's fast and difficult. The parts that make it difficult are fun and create endless replayability. In Ultimate, the lack of aerial momentum conservation, SDI (compared to Melee), DI, hitstun, etc. All make every interaction feel "sanitized" and everything is intended rather than emergent.
Casually, Ultimate is still a total blast though.
@LeZagna Yeah, I completely agree. I'm dogwater at Melee, but I understand those concepts and know how they affect the gameplay to create the gameplay that it does. I used to play Ultimate competitively and eventually I got to the point where I got frustrated with the very A and B nature of the game. Call it a skill issue, but I just stopped having fun and started getting frustrated when I would lose sets because I so much as tapped Game and Watch's shield or something dumb like that.
My other issues were:
1. The buffer system still feels awkward and caused a lot of unnecessary misinputs.
2. No advanced movement options to allow player expression and increase advantage.
3. The sticky platforms feel more like a hindrance than an aid.
@@UltimateTS64 It's good to know I'm not the only one who still finds the buffer system uncomfortable. While I've recently again found the fun in Ultimate, (and yes, this has been a repeated process) I still find it difficult to understand not only how the devs found it acceptable, but why no one seems to mention it enough. Though, maybe that second part is on me, as I don't participate in forums, nor really engage with the fandom.
And I can agree with your other points as well. Despite going in with all the energy and hype one could imagine, the game mostly feels like a regret purchase for me, and that is something I never thought I'd feel about Smash. The series has simply been on a path of diminishing returns ever since it came back with Smash U/3DS.
@megamillion5852 There are times when I get really comfortable with it and don't notice it, but a lot of the time, when I hop back in after a long time, it feels so off. I don't regret buying the game and all the DLC. It's the one game I've ever spent that much time on. Just on my console alone, I spent just over 1,400 hours on it, but if I counted times playing with friends on their consoles and going to tournaments, I've probably put well over 2,000 hours into the game. The game brought me a LOT of good memories and even helped me to found the esports club of my high school back during my junior year. It's just now I'm in a new phase of life, and Smash just isn't as much a part of it. Still have a soft spot for it, but it's just not in my main rotation of games anymore.
Come over to melee :) the online is great
I stopped caring about the game since 2022 so its weird to come back and see Sonic, Steve, and G&W be the top 3 characters
Its pretty grim
I pretty much only play smash with friends now which is more fun anyways
Honestly, Smash wasn't meant for actual FGC. It was meant to play with your friends and such. Just having a good time.
Ironically was more into Sm4sh than Ultimate myself.
If we do ever get a new Smash game. Let us hope that that we don't repeat the same mistakes that currently plague the current state of Ultimate.
It will and you're still going buy it anyway.
I hope Ganondorf gets his own moveset in the next game went from Captain Falcon clone to a Cloud and Ike
I hope in the new smash game kirby gets buffed
Ultimate Smashers cry too much about it. Melee bros have been going strong for decades with no updates and not as much as a wink from Nintendo (antagonized by the Big N, in fact)
beyond melee is better
1. It's old
2. It has very few gamemodes to keep the game interesting for people not into competitive
3. The fighter pass characters killed interest in a lot of more amateur competitive fun players
4. World of Light is very shallow, content wise, and once you've played through it once, there's little incentive to do it again; 300 matches that end in 2 seconds, with occasional 30 seconds of menuing to look for the normally useless spirit you need right now, are even less fun the second time around
5. The combination of these factors leads to the awkward situation where someone who wants to play the game at all will end up playing competitive online, and thus will outpace the skill of their friends, making the game unviable for long term casual play. It inevitably devolves into a single player matchmaker grinder
It needed modes like Smash 4 had to feed the casual audience. Smash Run/ect. It needed at least one more single player mode, even if it was more like Melee's Adventure. The DLC characters needed to not be overpowered cheese to a casual player. It needed more "stuff" to do, besides go grind multiplayer.
I think COVID, the scandals, and lack of support by Nintendo is what ultimately (no pun intended) caused the decline of Ultimate’s competitive scene.
They saw melee players dropping the game at 18 didn't like the optics, so they dropped it at 5 not realizing that's way worse.
@@omegahaxors9-11i don't get it
@@salvadorhenriquez4091 smash pros being outed as predators
@@omegahaxors9-11 OHHH. ☠️☠️☠️
You intended that pun you liar
"Why is the game dying"
-Shows 90% STEVE clips
Why do I keep forgetting Steve is in the game?
@@CuteRedPanda64 Because we all want to forget Steve is in the game. As said in the video, He's BORING to play against and nobody likes watching him in a match. So people tend to walk away
@@Yarharsuperpiratenot to mention he’s literally so overpowered it’s not even funny. So many things he can do that he was never supposed to be able to do
@@Yarharsuperpirateit's not boring to play against him, it's the fact that he has a major bug that ruins him
@@Yarharsuperpirate Almost as if he deserved to be banned for the health of the game...
"Why is Smash dying ?"
> Online doesn't work
> Nintendo isn't friendly with competition
> No Content, no patch, no new meta
> Salty community
> Steve
Damn putting Steve right after salty community is…yikes lol
@@sargentflippy9941
Steve is objectively VERY good, technically there are impossible MUs against him. He's not banned in my region and I'm okay with that, we all joke together when the number one is ALWAYS the same Steve player lol, he jokes about it too !
Now the salty community part is the part where people blame the player, and not the character : Sonic, Yoshi, Min Min and other characters suffer from this as well... And that is a big part as why is the game dying
@@HNblaz well yeah playing against sonic and min min is pretty awful sooooooo
@@sargentflippy9941 a hard matchup vs an impossible matchup is different
@@tarxan3272 ofc
I'd add that the netcode and online play experience is pretty bad. Usually less community actively playing means less viewers, interest and popularity
Afaik Smash Bros is the only fighting game with delay-based netcode, instead of rollback (I am an idiot, though, so don't quote me on that). Coupled with how GARBAGE Nintendo's implementation of it is*, how you have to PAY a monthly subscription (pure evil) to have the ""privilege"" of online play (something that is FREE in PC games) which gives those who don't earn money from the game a harder time justifying playing, and on top of everything, how you're not even guaranteed to finish a match because rage quitting gets you no more than a slap on the wrist, and it's a wonder how anyone endures the wonderful online experience.
*For context, I've had a better experience fighting others on MINECRAFT servers to which I have a 500+ ms ping, than I did playing with my friend who lives like half an hour away.
@@TheyCallMeIce Up until like... two months ago the only modern fighting game that had Delay-based netcode was Dragonball FigherZ, and they JUST got rollback netcode.
💯
for real every time I try to give smash another try I immediately realize why it sucks so much, the lag is unbearable
I almost feel like the delay got worse in the last few months like they’re throttling the speeds.
I think the reason why ultimate is dying is because of how the meta is right now where it’s camp or be camped. Either the most optimal way to play your character would be to camp (Steve, Sonic, Min Min) or to have to camp the opponent due to how volatile approaching them would be (Rob, Kazuya). So in recent smash ultimate game times are much MUCH longer simply because of how favorable camping is rn.
The fact that they saw touch of death characters like Luigi and said "we need more of that" is completely astonishing. ZtDs completely invalidate a majority of the core design of smash by allowing one character to turn 1 mistake into a cheap combo.
Ye
I didn’t know it was dead I was gonna buy it 😒
@@_user0_ Just the competitive scene. Casual is not affected by high level play.
It's not even just camping, there are characters like GnW, Steve, Pythra, and ROB who can misplay in a multitude of ways and not be punished. You have to work your ass off to beat degenerate playstyles, and it's demotivating when trying to learn a hard/fun character you like that isn't really meta to think "wow, I could just play an easier and better character and not have to work this hard" (no offense to anyone who plays those characters, this is more so a shot at the balancing team not nerfing some of the stronger characters)
So in summary:
● the game is getting old
●there isn't much new casually ouside of fighting new people online
●The competitive meta is getting kinda boring
●balance patches are over
●only new content that is confirmed is patching in sora's amiibo data and more spirits (not alot of people care about spirits nor amiibos)
I remember I got a Kirby amiibo. I was hoping that I can play as it, but I cannot play the amiibo character. I was disappointed. I wonder if the same goes for Ultimate, because I never tested it out for Ultimate. I tested it out on For 3DS and Wii U.
age doesnt matter. look at melee lol. everyone should just actually try melee instead of playing whatever new rehashed brawl remake nintendo has been pumping out since then
I saw Coney's recent video, where he talked about how the competitive ruleset affects viewership and gameplay. I will attempt to both summarise his points and expand on them in my own words here:
- The stage list is too similar, most legal stages are the same stage with small practical changes between them.
- Our stages help promote keep away playstyles by giving characters a lot of space, making it more difficult to close the gap
- Best of five sets make games longer and as a result promote viewer exhaustion. Therefore, we change the cut-off point for best of 5.
- Our Ruleset is outdated, most of ultimate rules were created in the first year of the game's lifecycle. We are now in year 5.
I thought this was interesting video, mostly because of how it suggests that we might need to take more "radical" action to create renewed interest.
The rule set of ultimate being outdated is way too true cause it’s basically taking cues from melee’s version that was standardised over a decade ago
Coney does not compete, stages has nothing to do with viewership
@@erickalvarez6486Yes it does. It's one of many factors that make watching/playing Ultimate interesting, and you don't need to compete to understand this.
@@rei3951 What makes this more poigant is that Melee got it's stage list over like a decade after playtesting. Hell, some places are still debating on freezing PS2 or not.
And just recently, off-circuit professional tournaments started adding more complicated stages onto the roster which means even now Melee is making adjustments to its ruleset.
The only changes Ultimate has are ones that *take away* stages. That is just insane.
MORE SQUAD STRIKE
I never liked ultimate. I tried really hard to. I hosted and won a few local tournaments, one of which was my first time playing the game, with just 3 hours of practice. Aside from what felt like an incurable problem in input delay regardless of the many controllers I bought specifically for the game, ultimate just did not have heart. I've played every smash game before it, and felt as though I could be creative in ways that I just couldn't be in ultimate. I mained captain falcon, and tried desperately to recreate the magic I strung together in previous games and there was simply no way to do so. Winning no longer felt rewarding. Getting better didn't feel right. For the first time, it felt as though I was compromising my enjoyment for the sake of success.
Steve and Sonic, no wants to see a block man build a house and place down more blocks and a blue hedgehog spin dash canceling for 7 minutes every game...
Peak fighting game right here :)
Lovee me some sonic.
Let’s not forget about Hero and Sephiroth with the camping
you're a child bro ofc you love sonic @@alexfpower
Steve vs Sonic is Jigglypuff Vs Ice climbers of the game
Doesn’t “Everyone has a chance of beating everyone” contradict “invalidating most of the roster from doing what they want to do”? I haven’t been keeping a close eye on the meta, but I got the impression that most characters can’t be solo mains anymore because they CAN’T beat everyone no matter how hard you try.
I think there's definitely some truth to that because While yes you can beat anyone with almost anyone, that's the bare minimum of balancing and that's only because the opponent your playing against is far worse. the reality is the only thing keeping many characters in the game viable is a player made ruleset and setting that specifically allows that
I think he was referring to players there, not characters.
Yes while it’s always possible to beat someone if you play hard enough
The actual effort required to counter that strategy is NOT equal or even close to the effort required to simply initiate it
Like if you have to basically play near perfectly or always twice as good as your opponent to win then that’s usually a balancing issue
yea try being pac man against a fucking high level cloud or any swordie for that matter. You can't solo main that yellow piece of shit because of how bad the mu are. No one wants to invest 1000 hours into playing pac man just to beat a fucking swordie.
I think one of the big reasons in my opinion is that some players get too infuriated by the online play to want to continue playing. They're sick of having to lose because what they cant control heavily outweighs what they can control.
Oh, maybe they should get good then.
@@wifi961 you completely missed the point, unless that was a joke?
@@wifi961 typical anwser, gEt GuD
@@wifi961No, they instead get gud ... At a different game that doesn't treat their time in a deplorable way
@@Legogreens What like Jenshin Impact?
Between lack of updates, anti-support from Nintendo and frustrating gameplay patterns (Steve and Sonic come to mind), It's no wonder why it's losing popularity... Wait, did you talked about the same? I guess it's really a resounding feeling.
Then again, the own community can easily shut down the scene due to being way too impulsive (Do you remember Panda?), so maybe it was doomed from the beginning. That's factor 4: *The community doesn't want to mature and grow.*
Welp time for me to move to a new fighting game 🗿
Most people who play it are video addicted man children, why do you think it lacks maturity?!? Most pro video gamers, or people who spend copious amounts of time on them, are immature because video games universally detract from real-life maturity. Very few pro gamers are legitimately mature adults.
@@jacobstewart9139 Lmao
@jacobstewart9139 lmao
@@jacobstewart9139 ... I'm sure that's very genre/game-reliant. Speedruns in general seem relatively healthy because the activity is taken as a sport, and I'll be honest, I rarely see issues related to less serious titles who know to mantain quality.
Smash Bros., despite not having a game who is less than very good, can have very toxic community, and the main tributing factor is that is a competitive game without communication between players and developers, as well as a casual game with too much skill expression. Also, that immaturity kind of gives Nintendo a reason to proceed with their politics, in some sort of negative feedback loop.
Honestly, the reason the community isn't worse is because we have lots of respect to Sakurai, so there's no pointless hatred towards developers who likely have nothing to do with the issues... And even that aspect of idolization backfires, like how Leffen is so toxic for a whole decade (Remember the crab) yet he's forgiven because he's amazing at Melee, or how our love for GiMR made us cancel Panda.
Meta is absolutely cooked
Sonic and Steve are overturned
There's fun unbalanced then there's nothing happening for half the round unbalanced.
I say we gotta think sonix for that
If only people who run competitions actually ban these characters instead of allowing them in and ruining the game. I just want to know why they can't just do that though? Was there drama? Is there a rule that prevents banning? I need an answer from someone.
its been dead to me since realizing the game isnt meant to be competitive. it has depth and is fairly balanced, but the game even without items doesnt feel like both players are actually having a test of skill. there are too many wrong actions that work, or ways to win by accident
The Lack of Updates is the biggest reason.
Even without the Smash World Tour, we would be stuck with this meta and with a game that lacks any good casual content and generally has a lot of issues (Terrible Online, Buffering System, Input Delay, Sticky Platforms, Everything being too safe and mashy, etc)
Thank you! This is my biggest issue! Glad somebody mentioned this. If those things were fixed the game would be more enjoyable.
Even as a competitive player I would kill for a subspace emissary type DLC.
@@classarank7youtubeherokeyb63 sakurai already mentioned that will never happen again. Back when people posted it on RUclips for Brawl he was not pleased.
Lack of casual content is what doomed the game imo.
There's nothing like Smash Run to mix up what playing Smash is like, World of Light stops being fun partway through a first pass, let alone a second. You kill one bundle of effects you didn't read in 2 seconds, you have experienced what killing the next 200 will be like. Spirit Board is kinda lmao, and Classic mode is... fine, but limited. There's nothing to really "do", and importantly, there's nothing that is different enough to equalize player skill a bit.
The problem with Smash Ultimate is that the only thing to really "do" unless you have friends on hand right now, is go grind multiplayer matchmaking, and the only thing to do with friends is more of that, with maybe squad strike, smashdown, or amibos to mix it up.
This means, someone who just wants to play some Smash basically has no choice but to go grind competitive, raising their skill level out of range of their actual friends, meaning the game is now unplayable in that context. There's basically nothing to level out this skill gap, and no way to avoid stressing it if you want to play the game. Icing on the cake, while at high skill levels, many characters are perfectly fine, at intermediate ones, the DLC premium crust is almost unstomachable.
This combination of factors basically kills any casual retention for the game, and competitive itself is still out of reach for most intermediate players... leading to the situation where the average person who likes smash can't play it.
Too good to play with friends, not good or sweaty enough to play competitive, and nothing about the game facilitates this being rectified or finding a middle ground.
WAIT. IS THIS NEFBEAR?!
Ive read quite a few comments but no one has talked bout this
But i think the biggest reason for its fall is the garbage online, its soo bad that i just dont feel like playing...ever, sm4sh had better online, I feel people underestimate the impact of casual fans trying to improve and get into competitive, but due to lack of a local community they have use online and that just starts a cycle of hating the game into eventually quitting
Really its that the updates stopped
That's kinda true but if the updates never adress the core problem of smash, which it's objectively bad online then it was going end up dying fast
Honestly, I don’t understand why people say the online is so bad. Sure there is some lag every now and then, but I routinely play online with zero issue. What do you find so bad about online?
@@sinchill5424horrible input lag is my main problem
@sinchill5424
Prefered rules
Lack of a punishment system
as well as terrible ranking system
Means a lot of times you'll get a match with a shitty Ruleset u didn't want
or a shitty match where the enemy player or players are toxic or ragequit and don't get punished
and terrible ranking system means there's a good chance the match was decided from the start
Maybe because the community hates its own game and there is literally only negativity and doomer-ism left
That’s every pvp game though
The same happens with League of Legends and is the most successful esport on all time.
I'll tell ya why, because the meta has devolved into running away, and i dont just mean sonic. a bunch of swordies running away spamming their huge hitboxes, rob and diddy looking for their one item combo starter, nobody approaches anymore. Its to the point where I'm cheering for characters like wario, puff and luigi, and i hate those guys.
Steve and sonic are only strong because the game controls like dogwater. No amount of buffering is going to fix the heavy 7 frame gimp on top of the average human reaction time of 10-12 frames making whatever they do that's under 17-19 frames completely unreactable. Which is absolute sacrilege to anyone who plays games that rely on a half decent reaction time.
i always thought it was just me who had issues with the controls, especially with accidentally rolling out of shield
@@anonymist-n8zI get roll a lot when I try to fair or bair out of shield
The idea that Smash Ultimate can't be topped because of it's numbers is absurd. I'm sorry, but gamers today seriously overvalue quantity. I will take Smash 64's roster if the game is better and does something that refreshes the series positively. Fuck a 9345 character roster.
Two main reasons. Over 5 years old and lack of updates/supports. Many players have had their fill of ultimate and have moved on to different games, likely newer games with new content on the way, if not a new installment altogether.
Yes, there are multiplayer games older than ultimate that are still played by some, but that isn't what is being asked. The question is why ultimate is less popular now than when it was newer getting patches and new characters and stages continally. Not why no one at all is playing it.
Sakurai may have pulled many cool, lame and impossible characters out of his ass
But he forgot he had a game that needed gameplay as its focal point instead of characters and stages
Its insane that Ultimate both feels like it has a lot but its still incomplete.
Story mode is still bad, no trophies that felt earned, online is garbage, stage creator being limited, no new or old minigames and finally, it really needed another fighter's pass.
Even if it did get another Fighter's Pass it will probably be more JRPG and Fighting game characters
@@SamuelJohnsonYTone of the biggest game genres and something that shares a genre with smash and is represented by 4-5 characters (depending if you count little mac as one)?
@@-rlmn yeah I guess so
He doesn't care about any of that, only two things are on his mind: your money and his anime characters
Ultimate answers the question: "What happens when you balance a game by giving 90 characters a single ridiculous gimmick and have them mash it?"
They couldn’t think of character ideas so there’s a million “character becomes better if you’re losing” characters out there
@@HeDronHeDronHedronand yet somehow the best character in the game doesn’t have a gimmick like that.
he’s a lame stall character which is just as bad
lucario, cloud, sephiroth? who else?@@HeDronHeDronHedron
No, it’s what happens when you give your DLC characters annoying and broken gimmicks
The smash scene ruined itself and will never be a professional industry. The toxicity and childish bs alone is enough to scare away any sponsor
Agreed
A common but also obviously untrue talking point. Not only is this not unique to smash, but sponsors don't care either way. In fact, sponsors don't even know this is true. Sponsors are not reading the smash drama of the week, they only see the numbers and the people they directly speak to. This always reads like someone wishes this was true and has no experience in other fighting games/competitive games in general.
@@lt2660theyve been sponsored with papa johns and red bull like a year ago
It’s not just the sponsors. The viewers are also tired of all the whiny community drama
Exactly!
I think smash losing popularity is mostly the fault of its community, the community is toxic immature can’t agree on anything and outright refuses to even attempt to fix any issues that plague both the competitive scene and the community as a whole. the game isn’t really as fun to watch anymore because the meta is shit. ironically the intention of ultimate was to have more interactive and aggressive matches than any other smash game (besides melee) but we ended up with a game that has so much passive play it’s only beat out by brawl. A lot of the meta characters play styles basically boil down to waiting until you opponent fucks up once so you can nuke them with a zero to death combo and especially for characters like kazuya and Steve your basically going to be seeing the same combos over and over again seeing a 0 to death once or twice might be cool but having to watch that shit multiple times gets old
Brawl being "passive" is a misconception borne from the years-long defamation campaign against it.
I've gone back to high level gameplay footage from across the world several times this year and was amazed at how much more engaging and enjoyable Brawl is to watch than Ultimate, and than Smash 4 as well for that matter.
@@yourdagan I’m not saying brawl being passive is a bad thing it literally has mechanics so that the game is slower than other smash games however it works for brawl all the characters (even if they’re overshadowed by meta knight) have something unique fun to bring to the table competitively in brawl where as ultimate feels a bit more stale with a severe lack of play style variety compared previous smash games
They removed cross ups and added a 1 vs 1 multiplier to make it "fast"
THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS
Getting rid of trophies was a blow to the franchise, it was a great goal for players after they unlocked all the characters. As you unlocked more trophies, the more you learned about Nintendo’s history.
That and trying to fool us by calling stickers "spirits" and clone characters "echo characters".
@@HypercatZa few echoes are different (iirc some were different but aren't anymore)
cause nintendo can’t top melee 🫡
Stop playing melee.
@@CuteRedPanda64”how DARE you have fun”
Nobody is forcing the game’s competitive rules on us aside from ourselves… game is dying already so before it’s completely dead, change it up
Try to stagelists, add the final smash meter on or something… but spice it up for players and viewers
This is what I've been saying for a couple years now. I'm in a couple competitive smash groups on Facebook, and this opinion got me so much flak. The worst part is some of the justifications for maintaining the status quo. "Some moves are weird on hills" is my most hated of them. Learning and playing with/against these SHOULD be part of the meta.
I've suggested 3v3 squad strike to replace the current rule set for a while now because I've watched ultimates viewer counts dropping for a bit. I justified it as more engaging for viewers who don't want to watch 8 minutes of the same strats repeated over and over, and how it would encourage players to be more familiar with multiple characters while also forcing them to develop hard counter strategies.
But they dog piled on me because planning more than a 1v1 matchup is too exhausting. 😮💨
@@linkplayer20Squad Strike would fix so much of what's wrong with the meta. Sure it's a "bandaid fix" and you can just pick 3 lame characters for your lineup, but the fact it's built in to the game as an alternate mode means it can easily co-exist alongside the staleness of regular tournament matches.
"Nobody is forcing the game’s competitive rules on us aside from ourselves… "
Really? Have you ever tried to play the game with people online outside quick matches?
Shoutouts to Nintendo for making a Smash game that makes Smash players want to play other games
Sakurai knew what was best for the fans
Rivals 2?
I’m not being dismissive of the problems Ultimate has, but relying solely on it can get repetitive after a while. At this point, I’m content with where the game is at and what it’s brought to the franchise.
Smash Ult is so bad, it made me convert to street fighter, never going back
@@dazedd-fi4yx Coming in from 4 I had such hopes for SmUsh but all of that was dashed when I learned they added in a 2 second input delay and an overzealous buffer that simultaneously made the game horrible to control while also allowing for borderline TAS exploit inputs to be cookie-cutter to execute if you had the right setup. Then they started adding in garbage unbalanced DLC characters like they did with Cloud/Bayo in 4 and at that point I was checked out of the series entirely.
Yea
Melee: Small roster of deep characters.
Ultimate: Large roster of shallow characters
Being the most "successful" in sales has a lot more to do with console adoption than actual general gamer interest as indicated by the chart. The three highest selling games coincidentally are on Nintendo's most popular selling consoles, even though two of those three titles are now completely irrelevant.
1. The game is unfinished. Why do you think people say we need a new fighter pass, or a new update, or even a new game? It's because they know or they feel that the game just isn't complete. It isn't a complete experience, something needs to be remedied. You don't really see this with melee(I'm going to being drawing comparisons to melee since it's the other popular smash game). The melee community has seen a host of mods that do balance changes, or add characters and stages. All of these mods get some fanfare and then the community gets back to the base game. Melee players love their game, that's why they grind it out like psychos, how they keep discovering and perfecting new techniques 20 years after its release.
2. I think ultimate fundamentally was designed with an awareness of the competitive scene and a desire against allowing what melee evolved into. Melee was designed with competitive play as an afterthought, and somewhat by accident became an amazingly deep game. The devs were simply ignorant to what the future would be if they left in wavedashing, or shield dropping, or allowing jump out of shine, or jump canceling, etc. To them they were just little quirks that players might encounter from time to time. Ever since then Nintendo has been trying to constrain what you can do in smash. Ultimate saw some new tech added, but also some removed, and some long lost tech still left out. The bottom line is that this kind of game design limits player expression, it also limits the community's ability to self balance the game. The reason the tier list in melee keeps on changing is that as methods of player expression change, are refined, or new ones are discovered, new characters become viable. Melee saw young link go from a joke character to a serious secondary used to counter one of the best characters in the game(puff) to now being a joke characters again but with some fun stuff in his bag post optimization. All of that without any balance updates. And it's only possible because in melee there are way fewer guard rails on the way you can play the game.
Idk why Nintendo is so scared of giving players the freedom to play how they want to play. I love ultimate in some many ways, but goddammit I wish there was just a bit more hit stun. Not even melee levels, but enough to allow more player expression through combos. I wish there was ledge hogging. I wish the game was a bit more weighty. Fuck, if Nintendo won't make the balance changes themselves then allow us to make custom modes where we can change all these parameters, gravity, character weight, knockback, hitstun, launch angle. But no, they're so arrogant, the game as they have made it is the way it has to be, even if it is in a state of wasted potential.
I think that's the most frustrating thing. Everyone can see how much potential there is, how close we were to the universal smash. I mean when it first came out it really did unite the communities, we had top players from melee and smash 4 competing at majors and placing in the top 8. It was probably the best time for smash since it returned to Evo. But the games potential was never fully realized, the melee players returned home to their game that they love, and the former smash 4 players were stuck playing the latest entry as the quality and excitement of gameplay slowly deteriorated.
I'm tired of melee yall, I mean I love it but its not a perfect game, I wish ultimate could have been the game that picked up where melee left off and really showed how good a smash game could be. But we'll probably never get that, at least not from nintendo.
The worst part was how they removed the ability to run past your opponent
Repetition gets old. Lack of change is boring. Smash Ultimate is 5 years old now. It's done with updating. No new anything. It's just the case of getting bored of repetitive not very varied gameplay
I don't play smash, but I feel like this is just what's bound to happen when you try to play competitively something that wasn't intended by the devs to be played competitively. Current gen singles in Pokemon are having the same problem, the meta is completely wack with tons of mons that can run away with entire games if given one turn of setup and so much stuff is getting banned but it's not helping, it's the developers that need to fix this kind of thing but obviously they won't because singles is an unofficial metagame. Dragon ball fighterz was left in a pretty sorry state meta-wise after its content updates ended with the fusions pressing full screen buttons and doing 60% meterlessly and every team looking the same at the top level, so the devs have kept updating the game over the last year, having multiple "final" patches that didn't end up being final because there was more balancing to do, and the current meta is quite fun, basically everyone is viable at a high level and you can't just grab fusions and lc21 and call it a day because of the meter gain nerfs.
I know there are cases of games not being intended to be played competitively ending up being great competitive games, like melee and mkwii, but those are outliers and not the norm, people shouldn't expect a fun and balanced metagame out of a game that didn't intend to give one just because it has happened a couple of times in the past
Melee
@@MatanumiThat game was not meant to be competitive either.
It lost the ONE thing that made it so special in my eyes and that is the roster.
Yeah it is truly awesome that we have a roster bordering on MUGEN, but in truth I really don't see how that is good for any competitive game. It is awesome we got characters that were former never-evers like Ridley, extremely unexpected returns like with Pichu, but ultimately it is undermined by the fact that a lot of characters in the game are similar/outdone and thus never going to be picked, and despite being the 5th game, it still has a LOT of problems that were present in older games.
-Projectiles and zoners feel too powerful or not well incorporated into the game
-Balance patches were often not substantial or could've been a whole lot better
-The Wifi is dreadful, with Ultimate having the absolute worst of the franchise. You at least you didn't have to pay for the Wii and Wii-U's
-The input delay
-Many characters feel poorly done, Daisy and Richter are just reskins, Ganondorf is still terrible for the 3rd time in a row, Sonic is still largely just reused moves from other characters, etc.
And when you take away that special roster, you're left with a fairly standard smash game. Not terrible but certainly not if you think "The ULTIMATE Smash". I don't think Ultimate is a bad game, but I certainly think the community moving onto the next game will not be very difficult.
Dude it’s called smash “ultimate” because it’s the culmination of previous smashes in one it has every character from the old games plus the new ones they added freaking SORA in this lol I understand the game isn’t perfect and has its problems but the roster is definitely NOT one of them
@@soultheconfusing9563 You entirely missed the point. The roster IS the problem since its the only redeeming feature for the game and I don't even see it as a hugely redeeming one.
So much of the development time for the game went to characters, Ultimate has by far the worst online experience and singleplayer content of any smash game. If the game cut say, 5-10 characters nd instead used that time to make a better singleplayer experience and/or a much better online model, things wouldn't be as bad since there's better reason to come back to the game.
@@Krona-fb4dn I feel like the smash franchise has always been about the characters the online has problems sure but it’s not like it’s a requirement to play. Also what’s wrong with the single player?
@@soultheconfusing9563ngl, even the single player content is half baked, compared to previous games. No smash run or custom moves. No boss rush or boss fight gamemodes that introduce additional difficulty modifiers. Classic mode is charming I guess. No all star mode. No trophies to collect and no gallery with charming descriptions, history and 3d models to enjoy. The spirit adventure is great, but a lot of the spirit battles are very samey. New spirits released offer no new interesting abilities or interactions and theres no new spirit board content that's challenging enough to warrant me using any of my lvl99 spirits, as in it's not enjoyable because its WAY TOO EASY. Training mode is still way too limited. Considering this singleplayer content coexists with a poor multiplayer service and functionality, are you REALLY surprised that people do not think this game deserves its "ultimate" moniker.
@@soultheconfusing9563 Sure, online has only been on since Brawl and really wasn't a major feature until Smash 4. However I wouldn't expect it to become *worse* than the previous game. That's worse than stagnation since its a feature that a past product did better. ALSO its on the main menu as prominently as the other content. So it being subpar compared to them IS a problem and practically every fighting game is expected to have a serviceable online. Yet its worse than Smash 4's.
-no taunts
-no changing characters inbetween matches
-no guarantee you'll get a match that you want, you may get matched into a time match when you want stock
-people edit the rules to cheese wins instead of actually fighting you
-netcode is just as bad
-delay based netcode ONTOP of the natural delay the switch has offline
-you have to pay fucking $20 to use it whereas the last one was free.
Smash's singleplayer wasn't great and not the point, but it wasn't barren like in Ult. Spirits is a snooze. Melee had adventure mode and event matches that unlocked stuff in the game, Brawl made Subspace which was basically a huge version of adventure mode and its own event matches and unlocks and both had good classic modes. Smash 4 is where it tapered off but still had event matches, and the 3DS version had smash run, which was excellent.
Ultimate's singleplayer content is very lackluster, classic mode isn't random anymore which kills replay value. Spirits is just a worse version of event mode and customs. That and the roster doesn't help much in this favor, I personally don't see people playing much outside 5-15 characters and the ubiquity of how people, not just competitive players, talk about "mains" is entirely paradoxical to a game with 80+ characters.
Also unrelated from what I'm speaking, but Nintendo pulling the plug on support is also a HUGE reason I think people don't point out. Tekken 7 was a game that came out in 2015 and received support as far into 2021. More than half a decade.
Ultimate's meta is pretty frustrating rn and people aren't having enough fun with it to endure nintendo blocking out tournaments. Like the best characters in the game are steve and sonic, players don't wanna see that for years to come rip
I think that's the user's opinion. I did read dislikes on Sonic, and I do not know why people do not like playing as Sonic. I played as Sonic, and found him to be a good character to use. I do not think I have played at a very high difficulty with him. I do not want to disappoint a third party character. Sonic was in, because of Mario and Sonic crossover.
@@bennel3588 answer is people don't like the fact the best way to play sonic in tournaments is camp, camp and more camp
@@DarkSymphony777 Do you know what this "camp" means?
@@bennel3588 yes, camping
"A term used most frequently in first-person shooter video games, "camping" refers to the act of hiding or otherwise remaining in a hidden, obscured, or safe location in order to ambush an enemy or objective, or to avoid harm."
in sonic and steve's case this is more the avoid harm side of things as sonic can out run everyone else and steve's entire kit revolves around mining and placing blocks, which encourages camping to make the enemy come to you and play your game
@@DarkSymphony777 When playing as Sonic, I just take on the opponent head-on. I do not try to stay hidden. I wonder if I have to master hiding from the opponent, and then know when to attack them if I played at a max difficulty. I remember one video mentioning that Sonic is a s**tty character that should not be in the game. This video was saying characters that will not be in Super Smash Bros. It said that Crash will not be in, because all he can do is run, jump, and spin, pretty much like Sonic which is another s**tty character that should not be in. Crash and Sonic can do more than those, but Sonic is rolling instead of spinning. I did think Crash would not be in Super Smash Bros. Since he was originally owned by Sony. Activision now owns Crash, but I wonder if Nintendo is aware of what company originally owned him. I do see arguments about whether or not Crash would join Super Smash Bros. And even gave reasons why and gave reasons why not.
This game was never good
Wrong it’s got worse when they added Steve And pyra
One thing that made 2018-2020 special was that Nintendo actually made an effort to buff/nerf characters competitively. People complaining about pichu/Olimar? They got nerfed. Prepatch Corrin was terrible? Buffed in 8.0! However I think 2021 was an underrated year for the game. We formed some concrete opinions during the online era only for them to be shattered as random characters were exploding into the meta. The game needs some more patches yeah, but I honestly think we need to look into random mid tiers. Seeing sky jay’s rising success as been exciting and honestly the sets leading up to top 8 of majors….are amazing. We just need support.
Nintendo especially needs to fix the online connectivity because playing multiplayer online with this game always feels like garbage.
@@Ratty524 Pretty sure Nintendo said they'd considered implementing rollback for Ultimate at one point but concluded that it would be too much work to do worldwide, which is really sad. Not only that, but Smash Ultimate's Online connectivity is notoriously pretty crummy to begin with
This was never the pinnacle of smash. It was the best of a bad bunch of sequels to Melee. And as expected Melee will outlive it. The one true cockroach of FGC/e-sports.
From my personal experience, it's the community, the community is just so godawful and toxic, and it keeps getting worse with drama, like recently we had Wizzy and other players talking about hating Acola, a freaking kid dude, smash community is hopeless since Ultimate, and I didn't even bring up the allegations
Idk smash drama cause I don't interact with anything about the game, all ik are the memes that smash players are just so differnt from any other game
Quite literally every game has a toxic community. Have you seen *Minecraft* it's still one of the most popular games on this planet.
@@STONKS_MemeManya I agree a community never is a driving factor in downfall of games cause communitys of people are in the small minority of people that just play the game for fun
@@Accountthatexiststhe issue being a bunch of top players and the entire competitive scene being unorganized, and those who are on top aren't good people to keep on top, I'm not saying every other community is an angel, but it's very prominent in smash, whether crews, locals, or at the top of the top, smash community killed the game for me since I was around the toxic crew scene and since I exposed a lot within some crews I not only lost respect towards the community, but moved on to other games and gave up on the community ever making a good comeback, hell smash even got infested with toxic wokies who will try to ruin your rep because they can't beat you, and the way the community works is guilty till proven innocent
Thanks for coming to my Ted talk, smash community is a dumpster fire tldr
@@justamugofcoco great Ted talk,👏👏👏👏👏
Imo, Ultimate has the overall lamest meta in smash history. Even outside of the top tiers, yes theres a LOT of characters being played, but why does quantity matter when that quantity consists of Olimar, Samus, Sora, Steve, GnW, Rob, Snake, Bowser, Sonic, the list goes on. Even characters that are comparatively hype like Mario are just bland and frustrating to play against. Up air to up air to up air to fair, or to super jump punch. Theres so few characters that feel like they deserve to beat you, rather they just have better individual tools.
Compared to Rivals, a game I've been playing a LOT lately, it's night and day. Everyone can beat projectiles with a parry, everyone has complex combo trees that require DI reading, and the hitstun is long enough to allow creative, free flowing combos for competitive players, and funny cheese for casual players. It's fun because it knows what is.
hot take but i think videos like these and tweets that constantly talk about the downfall of ult only rapidly makes it faster. i don’t think ult is dying atm. WTT had 73k viewers and it peaked whenever acola was playing.
Best comment I've seen in this discourse. The doomposting is legitimately the real thing that's killing the game. No one wants to actively look at negativity all the time so when people are constantly complaining about the meta, characters they don't like, etc, the public opinion on the community and game at large will just deteriorate
The scene could be alive tomorrow. Alot of figure heads and top players just want a shiny new game so they can have fresh content, new things to commentate and/or new subscribers. They don't care about the scene they just want new blood to fill the pots /give them new viewers.
As, an Indie Dev who's loved smash since I was 10, let me share some insight as to why I believe the game is dying, aside from the obvious, community, drama, and social problems - Purely, from a game standpoint:
I used to be a competitive player during Melee, when brawl came out, my younger siblings started to love the game as well, and when college kicked in, I stopped competing, and only played it casual with my siblings. To this day, I only still play it casually when I visit home and do online doubles with my younger brother - In this mode, I feel like I understand why the game is the way it is. Remember Sakurai Designed the game around the "casual experience" -
So, what does this mean? It means he designed the game specifically for how it feels and operates under random stages, items on, smash balls, 4 people on the screen at a time. And, even just playing double casually with my little bro, we have noticed MASSIVE design decisions that no doubt were intentional. In short, the game is designed to reward "bad play". The better you perform, the more the game works against you. When you are in a match and you are UP, the smash ball is more likely to:
Run away from you
Spawn away from you
More difficult for you to destroy
Even if you break it, you are more likely to lose it when getting hit by the slightest tiny attack.
-
When you hold items, and you are winning, you are more likely to drop the item.
Less likely to have the item spawn next to you.
Less likely to have a useful item spawn next to you.
If a pokeball appears, and you are up or your KD ratio for your team is higher than your enemies, you are more likely to get useless pokemon, while the enemy will get legionaries.
-
When the game measures your teams win/rate against the enemy team, if you are the better team, you are less likely to get your rule-set (Meaning, if we chose no items, but the other time has items, we almost never get our rules)
We almost never get FD which is our preferred stage, and even if we lose the first match, this doesn't change. So, there is no such thing as counter-picking the winner online.
-
The point is. Sakurai does not want to reward good players for being better than their opponents. And, everything about the game is a clear reflection of that. My brothers and I like to play characters that require skill, but, it's very clear that Sakurai doesn't want to reward the players who enjoy that. He much prefers the lesser skilled player win the match, and he's programmed everything in the game to try and ensure that when you play it the way he naturally intended.
It's not an accident that Steve, and Sonic, and GW are as powerful as they are while being as simple as they are. He knows these characters frustrate competitive players like us, and that's why they haven't been changed. He doesn't want competitive players dominating the scene, so these characters are designed to throw off and disrupt people from wanting to put effort into the game. When we see a "dying community", he sees the game shedding it's "obsessed crazy" players -
Now, I know it's his game, and I'm just a nobody, and I have no right to tell him how he should design his project. And, I know it's not designed for me, in fact it's designed to spite exactly people like me. The REAL answer is just don't play the game when you know the dev doesn't like you specifically. But, it's hard because I grew up with this game, and I just enjoy it. But, lately Armored Core 6 came out, which is the other game from my childhood, and my brother and I have been spending our time there instead, and it's just been a surreal different experience when the devs actually love the player and it's clear they make changes that they know you would like to make it more fair. We haven't really played Smash ever since AC6 came out, and until Steve and Sonic get nerfed I don't see myself coming back. But, I don't think that's ever going to happen, because it would do the opposite of what I know the developer wants, which is, make the game more competitively viable -
It's also completely possible, that I'm just completely wrong about everything I've said, but that's my takeaway from playing the game for over 20 years. Maybe the next game will be better, but I don't think the direction will change, I don't think the next game is going to want a competitive because the developer has never wanted a competitive scene -
Yeah I'm pretty sure you're wrong
Yeah but also character balancing is also designed around favorites and popularity, and money in terms of DLC. Also Nintendo never liked the competitive scene and they balance based off online play stats and what casuals complain about on social media or customer support.
Here are the factors why this game is dying for me:
1- Blocking online player system is horrible; people block way too often for the stupidest reasons, it usually leaves players with no little to no arenas to play with.
2- The devs stopped updating the game way too early. Broken characters need to be nerfed so the game is more bearable. Steve is broken, Sonic is broken, Kazuya is unfair, Min Min is toxic. Basically most DLC needs some nerfs.
3- This game encourages camping and it’s basically camp or be camped. It’s ridiculous.
The dlc ruined the game, all dlc characters are op and boring
No dlc expanded the game.
Staleness and poor management runined the post game competitive
Another point I wanna bring up is that many Smash players are also just playing other games nowadays.
Mainstream games is one thing but I've been noticing a large trend of Smash players moving onto trying other fighting games like SF6, KOFXV, and Guilty Gear Strive. With all of these new fighting games coming out soon, fighting games are experiencing a new renaissance.
Can confirm. Smash Bros was a huge part of my childhood, but I’ve gotten more into Street Fighter and Tekken now.
I completely moved on to Melee and Guilty Gear myself despite being a melee hater since smash 4 lol
The game way too slow idk what they did but smash 4 and prior releases never felt like ultimate complete shame.
Crazy amount of characters sure, but I think there's a few engine/game level issues holding Ult back. Unacceptable input lag and online net code, no ranked competitive ruleset matchmaking, hold input buffer way too long, no ability to toggle short hop macro, wave dashing and other movement techniques purposefully taken out, and no balance patches anymore to fix broken stuff like Steve tech makes the game feel a bit too sterile and probably unfair/frustrating competitively. If those things were changed and Nintendo wasn't seemingly trying to kill competitive play it would probably last a very long time.
My thoughts exactly
Remember that Nintendo actually tried to build a healthy scene, but the community was always doing their own stuff and going the opposite way of what Nintendo wanted
@@salvadorhenriquez4091 nintendo never wanted smash to be competitive
@@sephirotten2413 maybe at some moment they thought otherwise
They also removed the ability to run through other characters
If ultimate ever gets a switch 2 port with tweaks to performance, buffer, and maybe even balance i feel like that'd be huge for the game
bad netplay and low skill ceiling led people to other fighting games.
Old, No more updates, No new DLC, Broken Meta and characters.
You forgot:"Lot of toxicity in the community" (Me included, I'm all but a saint).
I lose:"Git gud sucker!"
I win:"Your character is brocken!"
I left half of the Smash Bros. Discord servers because of that. I was banned from the other half because at some point I exploded.
I think what Smash ultimate lacks more than anything is a star with amazing personality at the top level. If somebody like HungryBox was competing for the best player in the world title, it would make a difference. I like the top players, but none of them are that interesting.
It would also help if Nintendo stopped trying hurt the game every chance it gets. The game should get quarterly or bi annually updates, that could shake up the meta often. With such a large roster, it would be exciting seeing new characters rise to the top and new players with new play styles rise to the top of tournaments. 2-3 new characters a year could also keep the game spicy.
Nintendo might not put much effort into this game because they don’t make money off of players who currently own the game, but that is also their fault. They could easily add skins for each character and people would gobble that up. In addition if they hosted their own weekly tournament like coin box in the game, im sure some sponsors would easily make that beneficial for both Nintendo and the players.
I am so mad about Nintendo being lazy and not making skins. HUGE missed opportunity
@TrollMaster.0 but instead they put in the effort into making a million mii outfits nobody uses. Make it make sense
Smash 4 definitely had way more interesting personalities and rivalries even
Ultimate is too soulless and PC to bring back that kind of energy
It’s probably because the community was so toxic Tbagging Taunting A bunch of Tryhards and Lots of people took this game seriously
Sakurai:"I'll introduce more wacky stages, more wacky items and more wacky characters so everyone can have fun!"
Pro players:"Only flat stages, no items, no funny characters and only modes and number of lives me want. If you no play my rules you not true man, hunga munga!"
It's a combination of everything you pointed out in the video, but the beginning of the downfall was undoubtedly the insane number of top players and commentators being revealed as pedos and sex offenders.
That whole situation and the way nothing was really done by TOs to prevent it from happening in the future is likely what drove Nintendo to refuse to work with them. Even though it's been multiple years since then, I still haven't managed to enjoy playing the game like I used to, because that situation axed my enjoyment of trying to improve at the game or enter tournaments.
100% not, the average viewer does not care about any of that drama and is barely aware of it
Man, it really felt like things were falling apart back in like 2020 when top players started getting exposed for that kind of thing
@@RamikinHorde As a person who didn't even know SSBU pedo drama was even a thing untilyou mentioned it, I can confirm this
Exactly. That is not the problem. Idk what made you think this bruh 🤔
@@RamikinHorde Wouldn't that make it an even worst problem. If the knowledge of rampant misconduct is not widely known then it makes it easier to hide under the rug. It is almost like you don't care that the community was engaged in debauchery just that many people don't know about it. Sexual misconduct happened it is a problem period.
My two cents in no particular order…
- Game engine
Let me preface this with I have not played melee competitively or much at all really. Ultimate just feels a bit funky to me, like it’s actively working against smoother or faster movement and large advantage states (This could partly play into camping being incentivized in ultimate’s meta). Platforms and the buffer system seem to cause awkward movements a lot too. It is accessible yes, but I think you can still have accessibility with lots of depth and skillful gameplay. Look at Rivals of Aether (1 or the upcoming sequel) with things like hitfalling and whifflag. It massively rewards getting into advantage, but at the same time punishes mashing or spamming moves, while also being natural enough that players often didn’t even realize they were executing the hitfalling tech in the first place
- Online
Of course even more problematic with the pandemic. It’s basically two different games online and offline. Slippi alone probably showed a lot of players the difference a functional online can make
- Meta
Big stages and campy play styles. Everyone else already touched on this, it’s not helping a game that already has Nintendo breathing down its neck
The reasons you outlined arguably results in MORE depth and room for skill expression thou. There exist multiple techs just to work around the buffer system for example. On top of that there are genuinely a bunch of un-implemented techs.
Also I don't think many would agree with you that what ultimate needs is "larger" advantage states.
@@randomnobody660 maybe the engine working against larger advantage states isn’t the right way to describe it, especially since there’s a lot of discourse over polarizing advantage states like with steve. Maybe “free flowing” and “snappy” to bring the advantage states of characters more in line with each other would better describe it. I brought up rivals since I picked it up recently and it’s obvious it has much more aggressive advantage states than ultimate. At least in my time so far, it hasn’t left me feeling like some characters are unfair in advantage because the whole cast has access to a very strong advantage made possible through how the engine allows you to move around much faster. To be fair to smash though, there’s way more characters to worry about so balancing is a much harder task
The buffer system does bring its own tech, I’m aware. I used them a lot and even had my whole control scheme set around buffered wave bouncing with the c stick so I could do it constantly, but the tech arising from the buffer system, at least right now, can’t match the movement options or depth anywhere close to melee. On one hand, not every game needs to be melee, however it’s hard to ignore melee when it’s still being played and is the game every other competitively geared platform fighter gets compared to 20+ years later
@@xguitarist_ I dunno if I'm understanding you well.
The suffocating advantage state of almost every top character has often been cited as the reason for the game slowing down/becoming campy. Back when advantage state wasn't so optimized and mistakes aren't punished by 60% - stock the game was arguably better since people played more aggressive when they could afford mistakes.
As for number of options/depth, does it really matter how much there objectively is provided more than what anybody can realistically use exists? Like if you are only capable of diving 15m, does it really matter if you do it on top of the mariana trench or in a swimming pool 16m deep?
The worst part was the removal of cross ups which made the game so much more linear
Technicals was right.
1. Nintendo being Nintendo
2. Input delay
3. *STEVE*
Biggest thing for me is the Input Delay combined with the Buffer System.
I think a lot of characters are badly designed and put degenerate play to the forefront, and just shit movement and movesets is what killed the game
The hell... a new smash would definitely be possible. Better mechanics, fair characters, get rid of dumb characters like pirana plant and the useless copies like Dr. Mario.
A new game could easily add new features like actual outfits for characters and not just color alts. There is so much that can be done for a new game. Pls get creative.
"We don't need a Smash 6, how can you top ultimate?"
Well, an actual story mode would be nice for starters
Maybe smash was never as popular as they thought. And this is just the reality. Also, I 100% believe that the community and tournament organizers made this happen. TO's rarely follow Nintendo rules which means Nintendo did not feel the urge to sponsor the circuits. And anytime Nintendo tried, the community screwed it up, and by community, I mean top organizers and top players. They are so vocal about hating nintendo for first world problems that it's no wonder Nintendo left and left quickly. And those that feel so justified in b1tching about Nintendo are influencing people's opinions for the worse, making people less interested in the scene where it stands now.
I feel like it's a combination of the biggest upswing in tournament energy being shot in the head by Nintendo, and then the rise of what a lot of viewers and players consider cancer characters that are anti hype and kind of feel like they rob wins. I don't necessarily think that the game needs permanently ongoing updates like some have said. Melee has had no updates in ages and remains popular. But I think the top games being littered with Steve, and Sonic (and maybe G&W to a lesser extent) is not great because they really do kind of suck the energy out of the viewing experience. When Steve and Sonic are dominant, it feels less like an expression of outskilling the opponent and more an endless barrage of way overtuned options for steve or just being impossible to interact with for sonic. They really just needed maybe a little more time to identify and fix a few of the most egregious problem children and I think meta wize we'd be good. I don't even think some characters like Aegis are really panning out to be that big a problem, as you can see almost nobody maining them due to their volatility (Maybe slightly biased, but they really haven't show results that match people's whining about them).
I WISH it would have been Nintendo, but all the scenario seems like they made reckless promises of offering too big of a price and too low regulations to be acceptable (And remember, a lot of the 2020 drama happened due to lack of said regulations)... then *the community themselves* dismantled all the Panda tournament. I'm so sorry for even believing the complot, and wish most of the community was like Dabuz, but we aren't.
While I do agree that the community wasn’t conducting itself ideally, Nintendo was the one in the position to try and setup a way to regulate tournaments and keep them inline to foster a healthy scene. Instead they were a silent brick wall most of the time, then went nuclear.
@@TheEmperorGulcasa ... Did we gave them reasons to trust us? I don't think so. If anything we just keep giving Nintendo reasons to shut us down.
@@N12015 They don't need to be trusting anything. They have the obligation to provide structure to a competitive scene if they have a problem with it. It is both to their benefit and unpreventable for people to like the game and want to play it at a competitive level. They can just constantly shut everything down if they want to stifle energy and just have bad PR egg on their face constantly. But even Nintendo is not so immune to basic audience retention that they actively don't want an enthusiastic fanbase. They clearly do want it, so they should be the ones taking charge and laying out what rules they want for the scene to comply with. Being complacent and letting things do as they please, then lashing out randomly is the absolute worst way to run things.
One thing that doesnt get brough up much but definately killed it for me is the lack of singleplayer option variety. Ultimate went all-in on the fighting part of the platform fighter to the detriment of additional modes and incentives for solo play. In previous games you had stuff like Classic Mode, Multi-Man Smash, All-Star, Home Run Contest and Event Matches to test your combat abilities but then you also had stuff like Break The Targets, Adventure Mode and Smash Run that demanded more out of your mobility and environmental awareness. It made for a refreshing break from the non stop fighting and gave players more meat to chew on and an additional entry point into the fighting.
In Ultimate the only things left are Classic, Multi-Man, All-Star(in a reduced Multi-Man Smash format) and Event Matches. All combat all the time, which would be fine in paper because there's World Of Light, a new Adventure mode but then in execution its just a bunch of pre-determined Event Matches on a map screen with no platforming to be had there either. And then the only extra mode to return ended up being Home Run Contest, another combat mode.
And thats without the removal of trophies, which added an extra bit of consistent incentive and reward for playing. Its understandable why thet stopped doing it, but it leaves a gap thst Spirits just cant fill.
All of these cuts and omissions result in a game that's almost entirely focused on the competitive and that needs an excessive amount of self-motivation and/or interest in purely the fighting to keep with it.
i feel if we do get another smash game they should get rid of all the clone & echo fighters & just make them skins for the character they get their move set from. for example mario would get a dr mario skin
I agree that Nintendo's interference gave the scene a big hit, but I think one of the biggest reasons the game fell off was when a lot of top players were outed for nasty behavior. Nintendo can't afford the risk and it made the scene unsafe for underaged competitors.
It's weird you say that. I remember them harshly judging pedophilia, but not homosexuality. To them, pedophilia was bad, but homosexuality was good. They both are just as bad. Heck, one would go further and say that homosexuality may be even far more worse than pedophilia. It baffled my mind when I seen homosexuals demeaning pedophilians. I still have the Pikachu face! 😂
😯
😲
Buy yeah, toxic community.
Why NO ONE Plays: Super Smash Bros. Ultimate
Switch online still sucks.
Melee still going strong, but I did really like playing Mewtwo and Megaman in sm4sh. Ultimate came over and changed the old characters for the worse and spammed a bunch of new swordies and ridiculous DLC characters and it just lost the little charm it had leftover. Roster is way too damn big now and characters lack their former identity in past games. Mechanics of the game then exacerbate the issue by restricting players even more and well, like the others say, the horrendous online ain't helping...
They streamlined everything and made it "fast" like melee but for casuals
The reasons that you listed are sadly true. There is one more reason and it's pretty obvious: The community.
They just don't feel welcoming towards players who main top tier characters (Steve, Sonic, Aegis, etc.) And they would just harass them and point out that maining a obnoxious character is a justifiable reason to do so. So like what character can the player even play? And yet they still find a reason to hate you because why tf not?
I'm not really a big fan of how they antagonize players just because the player plays a character that most of them dislike because that's just gonna give them a bad image.
People harass people who play top tier characters but praise low tiers as if they are good characters lol.😂
harassment is unacceptable but the public can openly dislike players for playing lame or for whatever reason. This happens in every sport.
It's a cesspool of man children, wokies, and zoomers and they recently just destroyed their own circuits and their only chance at having Nintendo sponsor them
-Macro short hop
-input delay
-poor buffer system
-poor online mode
-some of the worst single player experience it might as well not exist
-steve
-most of all the lack of controllers that dont snap back
These combined bring frustration to unhealthy level and simply become. un-enjoyable.
What yall even like about the game beside it being "smash bros" and the great roster?
The problem with Ultimate isn't that some aspects are unfun or annoying.
It's that Ultimate from the ground up, mechanically incentives _non-Interactive_ gameplay, and is largely unintuitive.
• Clunkier movement.
• Largest input lag in the series.
• Artificially fast moves tied to clunky universal movement.
• Axing of advanced movement techniques.
• The addition of, and reworked characters which largely benefit from non-interaction.
• Meta now revolving around non-Interaction because players discovered it's what is optimal.
Calling Smash Ultimate one of the most mechanically sound and poished Smash titles, is outright *delusional.*
The reason why characters like Kazuya feel awful to play against, is because they have tools e.g _Intangible Crouch Dash_ which circumvent the god-awful universal mechanics most characters have to deal with.
It is an old game and unlike other old fighting games it has no official circuit
Melee?
Smash ultimate is a very simple game so it was only a matter of time before people grew tired of the game. Compared to a game like melee what has alot of player expression and tech that is still being found the closest thing to that in ultimate is steve and we all know how people feel about him lol. I noticed just how little depth smash ultimate has with its characters about a year in (I think zer0 also mentioned this at one point early into the game). The dlc is much better than the base roster when it comes to this but I do hope the next smash game they focus on adding more depth to the characters kits like they did with the DLC even if it means cutting the roster by 70%. Rather have 27 characters that all are very unique from one another than 100 character where half of the roster feels the same or very "flat".
It’s because of the pedophiles and drama around them.
Exactly
true
Quitting Smash for good. It was a fun ride but then the weirdos community got exposed and it all went to shit. Not only that, the game feels stale and actually boring too. I would not like to associate myself with the Smash Bros Community. That is all I have.
I keep falling more and more in love with it. After playing nick all star 2 and multiverses, I have come to realize how polished and balanced smash ultimate it is. No platform fighter is this amazing
Yooo based
That's why I have such high hopes for Rivals 2
NASB 2 controls way better than Ultimate and overall has better mechanics.
Nasb 2 is better in all ways besides the fact that ultimate has pikmin representation in it.
Rivals of Aether is better. The mechanics and characters are all designed to make lame playstyles unviable and the roster is immaculately balanced. Everyone is viable as opposed to Ultimate where taking Mac or Kirby into a major tournament is like trying to play basketball against a professional team with your legs tied together.
Whaaaaat a 5 year old game is slowly dropping off? Damm what a shock
TBF Tekken 7 had been out for 9 years and was still going strong up until last year in terms of players
@@shaghilathar3588not really, most fighting games are abandoned by the community after a couple of years
@@ABC-ik9vj You can check the player counts. It stayed somewhat consistent from launch for the better part of 7 years
@@shaghilathar3588 people doesn't talk about it so no
@@ABC-ik9vj It had the highest number of Evo entries in the 2020s
Would you play a competitive game with horrible online, or play almost any other modern competitive game with good online/rollback ?
There’s you answer
Because Melee is right there
As a melee fan melee also had a bad decline in 2023
broken game that got murked by beyond melee
I like to see this game die in front of my own eyes and this game deserves to lose popularity
Agreed. Worst smash to date.
People should try playing rivals of aether, none of these issues exist in that game, the meta is ever evolving (and every character is viable), it’s old now but it gets constant updates and rivals 2 in on the way, and the developers actively engage positively with the competitive community
theres no children to groom tho so smelly smash players will continue to dwell in the woodworks
I remember back when Steve and Kazuya came out people were defending them, saying people just need to adapt and learn the matchup. The same arguments we heard for Cloud and Bayonetta in Smash 4. Now the competitive scene is dying due in part to how bullshit they are. How many times are we gonna have to do this before people are ready to admit some characters are straight up broken and will kill the game?
Well it's not just steve and Kazuya's B.S. It's most smash characters having B.S in the 1st place, If Ice Climbers were top tier the meta would stick suck because Ice Climbers Desync is also b.s and is just another 0-death. If incinaroar was top tier then it'd be dying in one hit or getting hit with a command at 20% and dying. Of it was Link it'd be camping and spamming Nair All. That's the issue is that so many of the smash characters that have B.S
@@grimsdol4665 Steve and Kazuya are not comparable to those characters. 0-deaths in Smash aren't inherently a problem because the character might make trade-offs elsewhere or they might be really difficult to pull off. Steven and Kazuya basically break the rules of the game.
Kazuya has way too much super armor and intangibility on his moves for no good reason, making going on the offensive a bad move since he has an option to counter basically whatever you do. He also has a reflect, just in case you thought you could try zoning/camping him. And when he goes on the offense Electric Wind God Fist having a tricky input is literally the only thing it's balanced around, and pro players can consistently pull it off multiple times in a row. It's invincible, fast as hell, starts and extends combos almost endlessly and even if you block it it has a unique mechanic to push you back while you're trapped in blockstun so you can't punish him for spamming it.
And Steve is a fucking nightmare. He has extemely long combos or 0-deaths that are easy as fuck to pull off, has an outlandish damage output once he gets Diamond weapons that no other character comes close to, has multiple extremely strong edgeguarding tools and Block breaks the game letting him place terrain on command to camp you, give himself something to tech off so you can't kill him, kill confirm off a grab near the ledge or block your recovery which many characters can do literally nothing about. Not even mentioning the bugs/exploits he has that Nintendo left in the game because now that they got their money from people buying the DLCs they don't give a shit.
@100organicfreshmemes5 well yes steve and kazuya are the biggest aggressors by far im not denying that, but the point is that if that if you were to just numerically buff characters to be as good as the top tiers, as good as say Aegis or Joker. The problem would still persists because the reality is there's only a few characters who don't have somekind of Cheese or B.S in the game. And if those characters were top tier Those problems would be far more apparent
@@grimsdol4665 That's true, but it'd still be better than the current situation where 75% of the roster can't even compete.
@100organicfreshmemes5 it would be but my point is it's not by much, a good way of looking at it is compare the craziest things even a mid tier in smash can do compared to a top tier in say Street Fighter 6 or MK1. Craziest thing you can do in MK1 is like 55% combo ir making creating a 2 prong attack that's almost impossibleto block if you timeit well. Now compare to chrom who can pull off the edge of the stage and kill u 0% while he gets to live or someone like Luigi who can get a 0-death on. and yeah these characters have trade offs, but B.S is still B.S and smash has a loooooot more than almost any other pvp game
Ultimate was already the "Mk8 Deluxe" version of Smash 4, it's complete copium to think it's going to get it's own ultimate version. we're cooked until the switch 2 is out bare minimum, not that big majors/circuits will come back even then
Yeah! Ultimate was basically Super Smash Bros. 4 DX with extra steps. And some people think the next game will be Ultimate DX.
No, really, we need Super Smash Bros. Zero.
Because they added too many broken DLC characters
Cause the online blows there you go
* Game is old
* Online sucks
* Ruleset is outdated
* Nintendo should probably cover it themselves to save from losing face while ensuring viewership, new talent, and preventing old habits found in fan communities. You play competitively and you did not go into detail on the *why* Nintendo pulled from having fans/other organizations cover their games in tournaments. This should be something you mention in your videos. This isn't simply Nintendo saying "stop having fun guys"
* DLC characters historically performing better than most of the cast as seen in Smash 4 and Ultimate. People were already starting to leave when it was clear they weren't going to stop overtuning the dlc characters
* Next console is in development. Smash always comes with a new console, no exceptions. A number of times without prior announcement until you see it at something like Nintendo Direct. Knowledgeable fans are aware that a large money maker like Smash will come, just not when.
* Playerbase has a problem internally, both in the toxic dept. and the passive support of p*do's. Not doing anything when there's a known p*do is the same as allowing one. As a professional player you can't claim ignorance as it was a trending thing in the community, especially while you were active. There was a pro-player that worked his ass off to bring that man to justice. How you make a video on Smash dying with you being a competitive player and not mentioning that *very* important fact is beyond me dude. That dude being brought to justice was the true end of the competitive scene as he was a well known player. Understandably, no one is going to play in a community that can't hold themselves accountable and make actual change. I've seen your other vids and this one is just like the others, half-baked.
Fixed your vid for you, other creators did this better, and with better detail, justifying their time of the video. If this is for casual fans they should have been made aware. If this is for competitive players you needed to mention that. Silence is the same as permission when it comes to p*dos.
I honestly agree. What ruined the game for me was the number of online players playing very passively and campy. I literally got timed out many times due to a player trolling around or camping me out. Also, their rulesets are garbage. And yes, the weird p*do shit going on with community is embarrassing. No wonder Nintendo want nothing to do with this game anymore. All the weirdos that's part of this community is what gave the franchise a bad rep.
I used to play smash competitively on a local level. Among one of the biggest issues is the game's current state with the meta is just boring. Camp or not be camped. The game itself input wise does not feel as great as melee or smash 4, due the buffering system being still terrible. And making some combos far harder than it ever deserves to be than on smash 4. The game is also loaded with very jank interactions, with a few select character movesets just not working as it should. (Hello bayonetta and practially up tilt randomly deciding that today it shouldn't connect to the second hitbox)
And then you have steve... Which pretty much can invalidate easily over half the cast that aren't zoners or have some decent ranged option. And that's before we talk about glitches related to him.
I wouldn't mind this game if it weren't the amount of camp. Every player online camps till the timer runs out. No interaction or anything. And honestly, it gets real boring to watch and I'm sick of it.
If Ultimate doesn't last like Melee has, that would be a shame. It is a really, really well made platform fighter. Still the best on the market imo.
With that said, it isn't for Nintendo to "save" it. It is up to the community to come up with sensible rule changes which prioritises viewership.
Nah Nintendo needs to patch certain characters and stuff, I don't know why they stopped updating the game after fighters pass 2 they could've added DLC at an unconsistent rate and made small updates to keep it relevant until the next
It's a responsibility for Nintendo as well! They played a HUGE part in ensuring smash is inconvenient for players at every skill level, even for newbies!
These are reasons why competitive viewership has declined. But when it comes to competitive playership, BY FAR the biggest factor is the dogwater online. Meanwhile melee’s playerbase keeps on growing thanks to slippi
The weird thing that i've seen with melee is that it has been dying outside the US, but there, it has maintained the numbers with online
Dlc character are cringe
ruleset and stage making a campy play style the best option
the whole drama with the corruption and loss of panda global and nintendo help
Smash ultimate got me into fighting games, I remember grinding the game day in and day out, I even attended tournaments and yet the hype locally died down as well, I even remember how many people moved to Street Fighter 6 at launch. I dedicate my time to Granblue and Guilty Gear now but I still play it once in a while, it's really fun but hearing the communities pessimistic views on the game can be disheartening at times.
Ya, i played this game religiously for 3 years straight when i first got it (mained Kirby the whole time too) but later got a bit burnt out on it, leaving to play other games. I went back to playing the game again but definitely mellowed out lol
@@DrDeez-do9zoI mained K. Rool but that was literally me LOL
Personally, the only smash game I’ve found remotely fun or enjoyable was Brawl. Whilst sure, it probably wasn’t the most fun for competitive players, it has an excellent single player experience in the Subspace emissary. Spirits mode was shit in comparison, and extremely repetitive, not to mention it couldn’t be played with a friend. On top of that, there was event mode and all star mode. I think generally speaking, final smashes too, we’re better in that game. As they felt like a more immersive part of the battle, since the player had to put more effort into controlling them, which in turn gives your opponent a chance to work to avoid it. Now it’s just a one shot cinematic that hardly adds anything.
I just find there’s very little about this game to enjoy unless you’re someone who loves online play or is a competitive player. There’s all these great characters sure, but nothing to do with them.
From my ideas, there are two factors contributing to the decline of the game. One being the fact that Nintendo has not added any content for years now to the game, even balance changes which is obvious, but the second I feel is just the meta. People get bored after seeing the same characters pop up in top 8 all the time and it’s reasonable.
By "the same characters", you mean like... 30? Outside of the top top top majors, you see a wild variety in finals
Would be valid points if melee didn’t exist
Its not the variety of characters but which characters. Why are melee players not sick of watching Fox? Cuz he actually gives the players freedom of expression and is fun to play and fight. Smash ults meta characters are campy sleep shit that have 0 expression. Every sonic is the same, every steve is the same, every aegis is the same. Ult in general has 0 expression.
The most exciting match for my by far had to have been Skyjay’s run to the grand finals that one time.
@@dazedd-fi4yx No, it's because Fox is a rushdown character, and by your own logic, it's Melee that has no expression, not Ultimate.