Is Mark's Gospel Mainly a Mouthpiece for Paul's Ideas?
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- Опубликовано: 24 май 2023
- Mark does present our first "Jesus Story" to the world--but is he just an echo of Paul? In other words, is the Jesus he presents, and his entire presentation a reflection of Paul's theology--what Paul calls "My Gospel." In this edited interview with Kerry Shirts ( @TheBackyardProfessor ) we explore this question in depth. Enjoy! If you want the entire interview Kerry has posted it here:
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Thanks! I took the Mark course after reading Paul and Jesus, and I kept waiting for you to bring up Paul's influence on Mark. So glad to hear you exploring that with us now.
One of the best Tabor interviews, very free flowing and exploratory, esp in regards to Mark
I love James Tabor !!! What a boss!!!
This is very interesting stuff. Gets me excited in the way a good detective story does.
3 hours of stuff in one day!!! Let’s go!!!
James: hello everyone
*Everyone watching chanting in unison*: heeellloooo mr taaaabooor
Thank you Dr. Tabor
James is the Steve Lukather of NT research... always a class act and skilled
Another Steve as well in comparison to James Tabor and his Priceless NT research, would be Steve Hackett, also always a class act and skilled
Very interesting. Thankyou
I really enjoy your Biblical discussions Dr. Tabor, and I liked your colleague, Kerry Shirts, too. It's hard to believe that certain sects actually believe that people will be raised from the dead based on their dead bodies, that's ridiculous! I've heard Evangelicals say some rather fanciful things. I liked Kerry Shirts point, that with the advent of the internet a resurrection would be explosive in today's world. It made me think of Benny Hinn. How is he still in business? If he were really healing people it would be front page news every single day. People would be traveling from around the world to see him. It's amazing how he can dupe so many people and at the same time amass such wealth, $60 million to be exact.
Benny Hinn = Cheech Marin......too obvious
Not so ridiculous... science can clone people, who knows maybe will upload our likeness into new bodies / forms that will outlive our earthly biology. Do you have eyes to see?
As always, thanks for a wonderful interview Dr. Tabor. Do you think the mention of Rufus in Mark 15:21 and Romans 16:13 is a hint that whoever wrote the Gospel we call Mark was in a similar social/spiritual circle to Paul? Do you think it is possibe Mark 9:38 is referring to Paul or do you think it is pointing towards this wider world of ancient world of willingness to try incantations using whatever name that worked ?
John answered Him, "Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we were forbidding him, because he was not following us.
Yowza! Thanks!
the apocalyptic message of Mark differs from Paul.
James is wrong on that one.
in the gospel of Mark the way to the kingdom of god is not through believing in Jesus his resurrection.
it's by doing good deeds.
it's individual.
Can I do good deeds and NOT go to heaven cos it sounds shit
Salvation is based on works it says so throughout the scripture and beyond that it is based on obedience to the laws of God found in the Torah to see stays in the sabbaths in the dietary laws and faith that Christ is the messiah
In this Mark is closer to Jesus than Paul.
@@geoattoronto agreed yes.
and John is closer to Paul
@@geoattoronto all the apostles we're closer to Jesus than Paul
Very revealing!
I think it's a pretty reasonable argument to put forward concerning Paul and Mark. I think the author of Mark had his own literary devices (such as the Messianic Secret) but in essence there are a lot of parallels between the two, particularly the interpretation of 'resurrection'. Perhaps the author was familiar with Paul's letters, or maybe some other letters that were lost, or was in a Pauline following community. The theological links between the two are there, such as the meaning of the Transfiguration. I think that's the core interpretation of what being raised from death to glory is in Paul's understanding. In the gospel it's a vision of what 'resurrection' is, not a walking corpse, but a glorified spiritual body.
' There never was multiple Gospels by multiple authors. The Gospel was originally one book, written by Lazarus in consultation with the Apostles [John 21:24] and published soon after Jesus left them on their own. The religion was hijacked by Rome, the Gospel was broken up scrambled adulterated into a bunch of competing narratives. Later four of those adulterated gospels were canonized with falsely ascribed authorship and a Gnosticism cover-story. It was the finding of an original Gospel of Jesus scroll in Jerusalem that gained the Knights Templar power over the Church and their eventual undoing when the church finally retaliated against them Friday 13th.
@@termination9353
🤣
It would be interesting if the Revelations was the first book, which tells the story of what inspired John the Baptiser in the first place……fascinating if it goes backwards 🤓I haven’t yet explored that idea😁😅🤓
If we agree that “everyone is influenced by Paul”…. It then begs the question if perhaps a different theology was held by the leaders of the mother church in Jerusalem. And, over time that the Jerusalem perspective was not sustained for a variety of reasons. Then it seems possible… or even likely that the direct teachings of Jesus have been swamped by what Paul came up with.(or invented)
The direct teachings may even have been completely lost and that the quest for his sayings in the hypothetical Q document is a fool's errand.
@@edwardmiessner6502 even if there are some residual teachings of Jesus … the quest to isolate them an only be speculative. Further, the lost material likely went through a selection process to suppress the inconvenient and contradictory material.
It clearly was. The conflict is most clear in Galatians, and also in the conflicting accounts of Mark and Matthew. Matthew seems to be an attempt to return some of the Jewish ideas to the movement. But there are also layers of interpolations which confuses things. The antisemitic parts of Matthew could have been added later by Christians who wanted to keep the Matthew gospel, but also use it against the Jewish part of the movement by making some changes and additions.
If Jesus spoke with Paul then he can, and I believe he has, met with us to help us sort out what is and is not valid. I am familiar with that material and it is not popular because it rejects most of Protestant and Catholic Christianity. Jesus rejects Trinitarian theology and the concept of salvation by faith in a sacrificial death.
Absolutley! %100
2 Timothy 4: 11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.
Dr James is the main man❤
And the Apostle Paul was the last desciple to be called by Jesus Luke 18:22. I believe he was also present at the time of the baptism of Jesus Christ, because he would have known about John the Baptist and everything he said concerning the Messiah, which could have prompted him, as a Pharisee of pharisees, to seek out validation from him in Luke 18.
1) The rich young ruler's main concern was to "inherit eternal life " vs 18. He judged himself worthy because he believed he had been obeying all the laws.
2) He had been listening to Jesus's teachings and was convinced that he was a man of authority, though, he wasn't ready to accept the fact He could be the Messiah, so he approached Jesus in a condescending manner- as he was a pharisee and they believed themselves to be above everyone else. So, he sucked up to Jesus by calling Him "Good Master ". Jesus saw through him and responded in a way that means He was God, if Paul believed that He was good, and went on to poke holes in his legalistic beliefs- he believed he never committed adultery, but Jesus taught that to just look on a maiden lustfully already constituted a breaking of the law, so was bearing false witness, which they were notorious for, but wouldn't admit to, so he was indirectly stealing from the temple coffers in the name of doing business for God Galatians 1:14; as was not honoring their fathers and mothers in the name of bringing offerings to the temple etc. and finally, told him to get rid of the source of his pride: his wealth, and distribute to the poor, as they usually pretended to do to look good before the people. He wasn't ready to even exchange that to gain eternal life, which Jesus understood (and gave him time before answering his calling vs 22).
He began to follow Jesus from then onwards, persecuting Him just to get physical proof on Him as a fraud. I believe he was behind all the questions to get Jesus to break the laws- including paying taxes (Jesus was called the Son of David, David and his house have been tax exempt by King Saul, for slaying Goliath, by this they're negating His relationship with King David, hence, cannot be the Messiah, they even insult Him of being born of fornication, as Mary got pregnant before getting married John 8:41 etc.)
3) I believe he spearheaded the group that deceived Judas to betray Him, and those they bought to shout "crucify him " over and over again until Jesus was crucified on the cross. He really did persecute Jesus and by so doing, get to follow Him as other desciples, learning from His teachings all along, even sneaking behind to witness the last supper to confidently say he received it of the Lord
1 Corinthians 11:23, to make hin an Apostle born out of due time - long after his calling 1 Corinthians 15:8.
3) His anger made him turn his his back on his own life, and began to persecute everyone linked to Jesus, from Stephen up till the time he fell off his high horse- so to speak, and was forced to come to reality of who Jesus Christ really was- The Son if man(David), The Son of God, which he knew all along but his legalistic mind was resisting it: he finally called Jesus "Lord", though subconsciously, but he always knew He was Lord when he heard His voice again Acts 9:4-5.
After this, he became so overzealous enough to begin to let everyone know that "Jesus was the Son of God, and the Messiah" vs 20,22. He began to immediately experience persecution himself, which got him to Arabia, where he had ample time and opportunity to review all the proof he had collected while he was persecuting Jesus 2 Timothy 4:13. He could even have been the naked young man, who was used to entrap JesusChriston the night of His arrest. Mark 14:51-52. (That was why he could write with so much understanding of the Lord in all his epistles).
4) Philippians 3 was where he finally came to terms with the fact that all his wealth could not be exchanged for the knowledge of Christ and gaining eternal life- his all life pursuit Luke18:18! This came at a price though - he lost all his fortune, that he wasn't willing to give up at that time: Luke 18:18-30, calling them "dung." But now, forgetting all his past life and pressing towards the prize of the "high calling " of Jesus, as he now sees it!
That was why it was easy for the other desciples to extend to him the right hand of fellowship as the Apostle of the gentiles Galatians 2:9.
That was also why he could withstand the other desciples when they were preaching the law and circumcision together with the grace of God in Christ Jesus in Acts 15. Immediately after preaching in the synagogue that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, Acts 9:20-22, God sent Barnabas to help him fulfill his calling, and spread the gospel if salvation to both Jews and gentiles, especially the gentiles.
The gospel of the salvation of our souls is simply by grace through faith in the sacrificial death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the completed work of the cross that no one can add to or remove from by doing good or bad. The Holy Spirit was sent to guide, teach, interpret, and keep until the end, John 14:26. Thus, He quickenes the believers and takes them all up at rapture. Until then, we give ourselves to studying the scriptures to make ourselves approved unto God as workmen that need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth-daily!
That was the reason why the Apostle loved his Jewish brethren so much that he wouldn't mind being accursed, as long as they can all (the 12 tribes), be saved! Romans 9:3!
That was the reason he endures so much beatings and maltreatment from the Jews, who really hated him, but he continued to concern himself with them, even took up collection of money for the Jewish belivers, even though he was sent to the gentiles-39 stripes 5 timed, got shipwrecked, got bitten by a venomous snake, but like the Duracell battery, he still kept going strong till the end! How stinky and painful and full of putrefying sores, his body must have been, yet he kept on going...
So he ran and finished his course and ensured that the outcast tribe of Benjamin, finally has a place in the body of Jesus Christ, and will sit with Him on the right hand of the throne of God, in heavenly places!
He made and left us all a legacy, so we can all make it. Thus, he is free from the blood of everyone who rejects so great a salvation story!
quote: Is Mark's Gospel Mainly a Mouthpiece for Paul's Ideas?
short answer no!
it is clear that 1Cor 7 is mixed, yet written from the point that you should not plant a tree.
Yet Mark 10 advocates planting trees.
You can find Paul in Mark in the form of the gerasene demoniac and of the foaming epileptic after the congress on the mountain.
I’d like to know if Prof. Tabor thinks that the author of Mark was a companion of Peter, as I’ve heard in Christian circles. If so, could that be how Mark knows about the Last Supper, rather than thru Paul ?
I have no position on this, just want a scholar’s view. Thanks !
Paul knew nothing of the last supper
No one knows who wrote Mark, so no one knows if he knew Peter.
@@TerryJLaRue Not knowing an individual’s name is not the thing as not knowing anything about that person. Scholars often draw inferences about an anonymous author, including his relationship to those described in the text, from the nature of the text itself.
The rich man kept the 6 commandments of Mark's Jesus. This may be the most conflated concept in the gospels. Jesus says to keep the commandments, but only ever mentions 5 of them (Mark adds do not defraud, which is not one of the 10). The first 4 commandments, which are identity politics, are not mentioned. This is one of the most important messages of the gospels of Jesus of Nazareth.
Would you address "the Magi" and Zoroastrian influence on Jesus movement?
So Paul wandered into a meeting with Jesus disciples, including his brother and told them that they were wrong about what Jesus wanted and said he knew because the risen Jesus told him so
These arguments apparently got pretty heated, surely at some stage Peter or James would have asked Paul to describe what Jesus looked like, eye colour, height, distinguishing features, that kind of thing?
Another explanation which may or may not be true is that Paul walks into this room and they all debate which of their revelations/hallucinations were the correct ones.
The reason Paul is always bragging about not having gotten his info from any person/people, according to one explanation, is that people back then thought that was a more accurate way. That's what people say - I'm not THAT old to know firsthand.
We are immortalised in the memory of God. As much as he knows us
We need some zeal brother. Ima send good vibes your way
As Papias claimed that Aristion was ‘a disciple (follower) of the Lord’ and knew the Apostles and that Aristion had written ‘a narrative’ about ‘the sayings of the Lord’ it is possible that our ‘Mark’ is this narrative by Aristion. Hence the writers of our Matthew and Luke have not problem with changing, editing, adding and rearranging it because our ‘Mark’ was known by them to not be a close companion of the 12.
James most important exposition on who Paul was and what it really meant to be his disciple. No one had this kind of Christian life in history - or live it today. People who tried it never reached it. Paul was close - but even he failed. Jesus might have been the only one. 😮
Acts 12: 25 And Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem, when they had fulfilled their ministry, and took with them John, whose surname was Mark.
Discussion of the gospel begins at minute 32.
Summary: Dr. Tabor believes that Mark follows Paul's christology, that Jesus is the first-born of a new generation of beings, and that believers can also be born anew by living a life as the suffering servant just as Jesus did. This seems right to me.
However, my opinion is that Dr. Tabor is mistaken in his belief that Mark is just as apocalyptic as Paul.
Rather for me, in chapter 13 Mark seems to be re-working apocalyptic language to explain the process by which one is born anew. The phrase "birth pangs" is even included near the beginning of the discourse.
"When you hear" refers to an opening of perception, which leads to suffering. "When you see" is followed by more trouble. These are openings of perception and purifications that must occur for one's spiritual re-birth.
The birth is portrayed at "Then they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds."
Paul's predicted apocalypse failed to happen. Mark explains the second coming of Christ as a spiritual process that each soul goes through individually. Thus, "No one knows the day or the hour" because there is not one day or hour. It come to each in his or her own time.
Do not be deceived. Stay awake.
Mark 9 ?
1 And Jesus was saying to them, “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God having come in power.”
Just asking.
@@djpodesta "There are some standing here who will not taste death" comes right before the transfiguration. Done. Jesus predicted somebody would see something, then he takes them up the mountain to see it, before they taste death.
At the end of 13 the language is different. "This generation will not pass away until all these things have been fulfilled." I don't think Dr. Tabor goes far enough, and you could say that I am stretching this, but Mark is very tightly written. That change in language tells me that Mark isn't simply referring to death again. Something more like the existence of your soul continues until this fulfillment.
Why "taste" in a reference to death? Things you taste, you taste again and again, right? Also, v 27, "then too he will send the angels to gather his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the world to the ends of heaven." See how this means that there are souls not living on earth that need gathering?
In my opinion, Tabor is not reading closely enough. Mark is talking around something like re-incarnation. Mark is repairing the damage left by Paul's naïve understanding of the second coming, and that's what made his book wildly popular and inspired imitators.
@@jamesdewane1642 Thanks… you just confirmed what I thought about your initial comment.
You seem to be doing the same thing that you are accusing Tabor of doing. It is called speculating about how far you can push the scriptures to say what you want them to say.
I guess that is why there are so many competing thoughts about one simple set of texts; including the many and varied competing denominations that all cancel out the power of the Kingdom of God with worldly disunity.
As long as it is keeping everybody’s mind active. Back to reality though. Historically; down through the ages, to our own day, has the Transfiguration really brought the Kingdom of God to the physical world with power? Maybe Mark was exaggerating what he believed about Jesus all along… if we take your interpretation of chapter 9 as correct.
I think that too many people want to impress with the power of their own intellect, rather than allow themselves to be humbled by the seemingly fictitious power of God.
@@djpodesta Good writing often admits of more than one interpretation.
@@jamesdewane1642 Now that is a truth that I can accept. As long as we all know that we all only have our interpretations; myself included.
But ‘really’ good writing expounds an idea in such a way, that it leaves the reader without room for obvious, private interpretation.
The good thing about all these public speculators; scholars peddling their books, is that we can listen to; or read their ideas and take away the few nuggets of thought that resinates with our own ideas, and add them to our overall personal mosaic of thought.
One thing that I do find interesting about our Gospel writers is that they were able to recount certain private words, thoughts or situations of their Messiah, but where they could have given us clarity, they managed to omit specifics, ‘and Jesus did and said many other things… so on and so forth, bla bla bla,’ leaving interested parties; us, to speculate as we do.
Marks biggest kicker, though, is “Jesus cried out with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?”
Kenny's a good listener 😂
I would think Luke came after Mark and before Matthew because he was an associate of Paul.
Could Paul have written the gospels
That it really could be true that Paul met personally with Jesus in resurrection appearances in his resurrection body is a new but acceptable thought to me , because I accept that understanding of the resurrection and I have no objection to the concept that Jesus called and personally trained Paul.
You are deluded. Jesus failed to train and convince Peter for the Love of God
Paul has corrupted the scriptures. Wake up
2 Corinthians 12:1-4. 14 years ago, Paul would have met with the Apostle John and Daniel- Revelation 4:1; Revelation 10:1-7, when the shut prophecies were ready to be accomplished, which I believe did have something to do with the mystery of God which had been hidden before the foundation of the world. Deuteronomy 29:29; Romans 16:25-26; Colossians I:25-29; Psalm 25:14; Matthew 13:11.
Paul was the first Fundamentalist Christian!
I didn’t understand, took up the cross, and am still walking endlessly like a true Buddhist or Buddha
55:02-55:10 acts 145-150. infancy jacob 145-155. Both written by justin “martyr?” polycarp = pastorals justin = acts and infancy jacob? Sure makes sense to me.
P.S.: Also 1 Cor. 11:2-16 (Paul is shown to be anti-stoic in chapter 12 and socially libertarian in chapter 7) and 14:34-35?
P.P.S.(edit): Death of ignatius 145? epistle of the apostles 145? 2 peter 150-151 (failed second coming)?
The man says, “Get out of here
I’ll tear you limb from limb”
I said, “You know they refused Jesus, too”
He said, “You’re not Him
Bob Dylan's 115th Dream
But I am him. There never was multiple Gospels by multiple authors. The Gospel was originally one book, written by Lazarus in consultation with the Apostles [John 21:24] and published soon after Jesus left them on their own. The religion was hijacked by Rome, the Gospel was broken up scrambled adulterated into a bunch of competing narratives. Later four of those adulterated gospels were canonized with falsely ascribed authorship and a Gnosticism cover-story. It was the finding of an original Gospel of Jesus scroll in Jerusalem that gained the Knights Templar power over the Church and their eventual undoing when the church finally retaliated against them Friday 13th.
@@termination9353 this is very good post
@@Isaac5123 thank you. Want more?
Paul's "born out of due time " implies his being in the same gestational period with the 11 desciples, but delivered into his ministry after them.
Paul, because of his zeal for the law of God, would have been one of the desciple of John the Baptist, as were Andrew, Peter etc., but followed Jesus Christ when He was made known to be the Messiah - the long-awaited Son of God, during His baptism, when the heavens opened and they heard God's voice. Matthew 3. He needed proof and got it only after the arrest, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
(I believe that he was the naked young man in Mark 14-51-52, persecuting Jesus till the end, for claiming to be the Messiah, the Son of man (David), and the Son of God!).
Although he considered himself as an equal with the other desciples 2 Corinthians 12:11-12; Galatians 2:8; Ephesians 3:1-12; 1 Timothy 2:7; Philippians 3:7 etc. If not even better than them, by his deferred calling Luke 18:18-22, he even recognized the voice of Jesus Christ on his way to Damascus. He answered him, "Lord...!" Acts 9:5.
I also believe that Apostle Paul had an encounter with both Apostle John and Daniel. Daniel 8:13; 2 Corinthians 12:2-10; Revelation 10:4, by His out of body experience of the unveiling of all hidden mystery of God, at the end of the age.
19:31-19:33 Seems like josephus + odysseus. Paul traveled, sure. He didn’t travel that much.
48:40 "Herbert Armstrong picked up on some of that stuff". Exactly. He also recognized what Paul was preaching in 1 Corinthians 15, where he [Paul] said our flesh and blood bodies will be like his [Jesus'] pneumatic body and that he [Jesus] will not be ashamed to call us *brethren.* Basically God was reproducing himself. You'll find that in the Orthodox Church as well with their teaching of theosis.
Let me add this about "Take up your cross and follow me", and the pathetic death of Jesus on the cross after God left him in the lurch. The Roman execution cross was not the _tropaeum_ that you see in church. That cross Constantine stole from the Imperial Cult, see Justin Martyr's 1 Apology 55. Rather, the execution cross was a cruciform and male torture-stake that crucified by penetration. Add to the necessity of the crucified to try to stand in order to breathe or for whatever reason and his inevitable slump, and you have the total effeminising humiliation of a man on this sort of cross. (Seneca Minor Moral Epistles 101.10-14, Pozzuoli Graffito and Vivat Crux Graffito - I have more sources if you want to read them.) David Tombs has just written a book about this, _The Crucifixion of Jesus Christ: Torture, Sexual Abuse, and the Scandal of the Cross._
I think nothing was written until maybe as late as110-120 CE. I mean nothing at all.
and what was written was 'retro-fitted' into a previous time that no-one could quite remember cos it was like at least 70 years earlier when it was supposed to have happened. Hence all the inconsistencies in the gospel narratives and places that didn't exist yet etc Quite scant for the son of god landing with a bag full of miracles. Tacitus' mention of Nero throwing lions to xtians is obvious interpolation and Josephus et al
@@paulnolan4971 --There never was multiple Gospels by multiple authors. The Gospel was originally one book, written by Lazarus in consultation with the Apostles [John 21:24] and published soon after Jesus left them on their own. The religion was hijacked by Rome, the Gospel was broken up scrambled adulterated into a bunch of competing narratives. Later four of those adulterated gospels were canonized with falsely ascribed authorship and a Gnosticism cover-story. It was the finding of an original Gospel of Jesus scroll in Jerusalem that gained the Knights Templar power over the Church and their eventual undoing when the church finally retaliated against them Friday 13th.
Dr. Tabor knows how to deal with blowhards. Thank you
Heaven and garden of Eden is a dimension where our head can see perfect ideas. There is no meat there only light visions. It’s connected to Orion and Manna gold (Oro).
Apocolyptic??
38:00 I imagine Jesus during COVID, telling people not to wash their hands, because what comes to the mouth does not defile a person.
Why go back and forth when you can integrate the best of all possible worlds into a new one? Every universe is a completely tested creation of something great or small, just waiting for us to rediscover and integrate into a more perfect paradise. Most of the important things we already have, just need to throw out the trash and listen to ALL the prophets again
Tabor must have had too much coffee. Shirts couldn't get a word in edgewise. Geez.
We are not the image of God. Adam is the image of God. We are all Adam. Mankind, all of us together, is the image of God.
Why is so much creedence afforded Paul when Peter is the rock?
Because Paul is rare, in that he is one of only two NT authors who writes in his own name and tells us that he personally saw Jesus (in a vision), his brother James, and the apostle Peter, among others. He is a precious historical witness.
@@erichodge567 Well answered! But that explains why he is popular and beloved, not why he is given creedence. It is hard to read Paul with an unbiased untaught mind and walk away not thinking something does not sound right. Sounds more like someone saying they are promoting their master, but are in a sly way are actually only promoting themselves and their own beliefs. Hence "I'm not lying."
I would say Luke more so than Mark. It's an interesting subject for debate.
i would say all three.
Matthew a bit less then the other 2.
they all blaim the jews for the death of Jesus, not the jews.
pay your taxes to the romans.
clearly pro roman Pauline doctrine.
@@Marabarra134 According to some of the early church fathers, the gospel of Matthew was originally written in Hebrew, not Greek and later translated. I would be willing to bet that the Hebrew version has some stark differences from the later Greek. Too bad we will never see an original.
@@ji8044 so they say, i doubt it but it could be yes.
the early churchfathers said a lot of things that have been debunked.
and it could have been a completely different gospel then the Matthew that we know.
Dr. Tabor, do you think the statement in Titus 3:9 (later Paul) could be referring to the problematic genealogies of Matthew or Luke? "But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless."
It is probably about the conflict between the Jews and the non-Jews within the movement. It is most likely a later pauline writer who wanted to defend his version of "Christianity" against the more Jewish one. The Jews might be a minority at that point, but had still a lot of influence due to their genealogies, and they probably wanted to keep more of the Law surrounding food and such.
Or it could be non-Christian Jews that criticized the Christians for their distorted form of Judaism.
One thing I will say. In Paul's defense. Is that I was over chain by the holy Spirit. 8 years ago and when I was over came by the holy breath of God it has never left me since. I held up a Bible insane a song to God the court is in session the verdicts in 12 jurors deliberating and ask God to test my heart ❤️ and I don't care if you believe me or not God sent SATAN and Yeshua and both were audible for 40 days and Yeshua repeated Psalms 23 I told me no greater Love except one that lay his life down for his friend. And called me his friend. Shaitan convinced me I had seventy years to burn ❤️🔥 if I went to sleep. Joshua told me he was a liar and the truth was not in him. Finally I went to sleep. Because I was not afraid to know more I lost my fear of the dark. And Satan had no more power over me. Because I was willing to lay my life down for ALOH-O so I've heard from yashu myself. So this was most likely true.
Of course, Mark was not written later. The apriori thesis does not work on the Bible. Prophecy is real.
Mark is Peter's son, and Peter and Paul are adversarial. Mark is the biography of Peter.
Acts is written by a traveling companion of Paul. Luke is written earlier by the same author. Mark predates Luke, 40ad or so.
Write your own version of a Bible story. You just need the basic components. The ruler of a world cast down to a planet because he had become corrupted by sin. Someone without sin and full of understanding who, in a sacrifice for sin, becomes corrupted by sin, to justify the ruler in his sentence by laying down his life and being resurrected from that corruption, doing the will of the ruler, his Father, never to return to corruption.
Adam wields the fiery sword to become corrupted. Cain kills Abel to be resurrected. The smoking pot, column of smoke and Scapegoat are the resurrection. The burning brazier, pillar of fire and Sacrificial Lamb are the sacrifice. The Son of David is sacrificed by his Father. Joshua makes the sacrifice and Moses wanders the desert. The Beast out of the Sea is resurrected as the Beast out of the Earth. A Behemoth with bones of iron and a frame of bronze, the stump fettered in iron and bronze whose promised kingdom has the sky as iron and earth under its feet as bronze. The Leviathan, who frolics in the sea, is full of understanding and considers iron as straw and bronze as rotted wood. The Father is greater than the Son yet, the Son is the root of the Father. Lest you see and perceive, hear and understand.
In the beginning, the world became a wasteland, the people were empty, and void of understanding, having become corrupted by sin. Adam found them in that wasteland and shielded them as the apple of his eye, with his spirit hovering over their kingdom, the Abyss.
The Cornerstone of Adam's work of salvation is the ruler of this world, wherever man may dwell, the Father you spring from, the king of Babylon, the Morning Star, the King of kings, who was cast down to earth, cut down to a stump, will become much greater than before and, who said in his heart:
"I will scale the heavens; Above the stars of God I will set up my throne; I will take my seat on the Mount of Assembly, in the recesses of the North. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will be like the Most High!" (Isa 14:13-14 NABO)
David has an everlasting covenant with the Lord working for all his salvation and every desire. The people of David, the Morning Star, your king who will be raised up for you, set out from Babylon seeking a promised land, a better home, a heavenly home. The Ancient Serpent of Old becomes much greater than before, as the Ancient One of Days, seated upon a throne among the Assembly on the Mount.
Or, most likely, since Adam is a third party to this world and these heavens, the mediatory between you and your Father, as the ruler of these heavens. Adam rules from his throne and over his kingdom, which he confirms and sustains both now and forever, preserving it for him. Then comes the end, when he hands the kingdom over to his God and Father, subjects himself to the one who made all things subjected to him, and ascends beyond the heavens themselves, from whence he came.
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Esau, the firstborn, lives by the sword (sacrifice) and serves his brother, Jacob, who was born ‘striking’ at his heel.
Isaac blessed Esau saying:
Ah, far from the fertile earth shall be your dwelling; far from the dew of the heavens above! (Gen 27:39 NABO)
My kingdom does not belong to this world. (Joh 18:36 NABO)
Where I am going you cannot come. (Joh 8:21 NABO)
The one who ascended far above all the heavens themselves (Eph 4:10 NABO)
"By your sword (sacrifice) you shall live, and your brother you shall serve; But when you become restive (weak; faint; infirm; a worm; man of suffering; restless; wanderer in the desert; way of the Lord in the desert), you shall throw off his yoke from your neck." (Gen 27:40 NABO)
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for your selves. For my yoke is easy, and my burden light. (Mat 11:29-30 NABO)
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Six marches over six days - The first six seals
Seventh day, seven marches - Seventh seal with seven trumpets
Seven priests given seven horns - Seven trumpets
Silent before the shout - Silence in heaven
On the seventh march the horns sound, they shout, and Jericho is given to them - At the seventh trumpet, there were loud voices in heaven saying the kingdom of the world belongs to the Lord.
Walls of Jericho - Scroll with seven seals
Now if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterwards of another day. (Heb 4:8 NABO)
There never was multiple Gospels by multiple authors. The Gospel was originally one book, written by Lazarus in consultation with the Apostles [John 21:24] and published soon after Jesus left them on their own. The religion was hijacked by Rome, the Gospel was broken up scrambled adulterated into a bunch of competing narratives. Later four of those adulterated gospels were canonized with falsely ascribed authorship and a Gnosticism cover-story. It was the finding of an original Gospel of Jesus scroll in Jerusalem that gained the Knights Templar power over the Church and their eventual undoing when the church finally retaliated against them Friday 13th.
Where is this information taken from though?
@@rhb30001 information supported by Gospel scripture John 21:24 "This is the disciple[whom Jesus loved/ Lazarus] which testifieth of these things, AND WROTE THESE THINGS: and we[Apostles] know that his testimony is true."
John 11:5
Now Jesus LOVED Martha, and her sister, and LAZARUS
John 11:3
Therefore his sisters sent unto him{Jesus], saying, Lord, behold, HE[Lazarus] WHOM THOU LOVEST is sick..
John11:36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he[Jesus] LOVED him[Lazarus]!
@@rhb30001
Termi is a bit of a nutter, pal.
@@NickRothman1980
@@termination9353 It is a bit odd to base your argument on something you claim is adulterated.
Isn't Paul a mouthpiece for Marcion's ideas
Marcion lived a century after Paul.
I think it's the reverse. The elephant in the room here is Marcion's gospel. How much of that became Mark? Paul's letters have been redacted more than people realize, and it's certainly possible that Paul had a lot more Marcionite beliefs than are present today.
2 Corinthians 5:21 NASB
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
We are each to seek our own salvation and righteousness comes from repentance and obeying the laws of God that are found in the Torah
This sounds good on the surface like a lot of Paul's writing. But they are his personal beliefs. This teaching allows people today to say they believe in Jesus, but they can do so many things that they have the ability to not do, but choose to go ahead anyway. I'm not talking about being perfect and I'm also not talking about character defects we wrestle with, but rather the ones that tend to often make people who spout Bible verses are known as Christians, but have the worst character of any employee on the job. I'm talking about allowing people to say with their mouth and writings that they follow Jeus, but do little to make the world a better place.
@@charlesurdy-barnes413 Does Mark know 2 Corinthians?
If Mark believes Paul, then what other way is there to interpret Mark 10: 17-21, that clearly says Jesus is God.
2 Corinthians 5
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Mark 10:17-21
17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good-except God alone. 19You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’ d ”
20“Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”
21Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
@@onejohn2.26 Isaiah 64:6
6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
@@jonahdaniels4212 I suggest you reread it he was talking about sinners not righteous people reading contacts a few paragraphs before and a few paragraphs after righteous people are not as filthy rags before God it is he absolute opposite
Professor Taber, you need to connect the dots between Mar15:39, Matthew 8:10, Luke 23:34, Book V, Tertullian's Apology and the Gospel of Peter, with special attention to the unifateral covenant cutting ceremony ratified by the talking cross and the unilateral covenant cutting ceremony in Genesis 15.
Paul's theology is completely grounded in either the Gospel of Mark an/or what we call Quelle. Paul's 13 Wpistles are a rebttal to Matthew's polemic supporting Peter's Judaizing.
Matthew 8L10 can be transliterated to mean "You are the only person in Israel who thinks the way I do: Both Jesus and Cornelius, the centurion in Matthew/Luke 7, answer to a higher authority and, ultimately that higher authority is Yaweh, Queen of Battle. Tertullian identifie 3 elements of the God Head,, Yaweh without a uterus, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. He left out The one as described in Genesis 1:1, and Revelation 4.2, the Spirit of God, described in Genesis 1:2 and Yaweh with a uterus, Yaweh, Queen of Battle. And as a separate element, The Satin characterized in the Book of Job, The first 6 elements can be understood, metaphorically, like a Swiss Army Knife, with The One and the casing and the other 5 lememts as supernatural knives and appliances, The Satan is a separate element and is like a sharpening steel for the pretensions of the God Head.
The centurion is a creature of the Roman secular rule of law and the essential gyroscopic flywheel of the legions and, hence, the Roman Republic, The centurions represent the transition from the Real Warfare of King David and the other confederations to the True Warfare of th Industrial Revolution. The centurions are the basis for the US Army Starship Troopers of Vietnam and the Be All You Can Be Army of One
The Gospel of Mark is an expansion of the intelligence report Pilate sent to Tiberius based on the contents of Quelle at the moment Peter adds his testimony to the Roman Jesus Archive aka Quelle. Paul refers to this archive in almost all his Epistles and this archive is the basis for the finding by Edolphus entitle Hebrews. Theophilus is an equine officer in the Italian Cohort who is the Bishop of the Roman Jesus cult. Paul's essential role was to ratify the faithfulness of the Italian Cohort to their republican duty under law with Romans 13:1 _ 7, Phillipians is an end zone celebration of hPaul's successful defense of his Liberation Gospel and the servant leadership of Christian stewardship as a military occupation.
Paul is Pyrrhus the Fool of Hope, per Acts.
Paul was all about resurrection, Mark's Jesus mentions only his own - and even the news of it Mark relegates to a total stranger in an Empty Tomb to three women who run off, terrified, telling no one.
While Paul's Christ is presented as a salvific figure, Mark's Jesus is a man of words, a teacher who recruits disciples, promising to reveal to them, and to them alone, "the mysteries of the Kingdom of God" - founding the Church.
Nietzsche was right. Show me the Christian who will sell their house and give away the profits. I've been around a long time and have yet to meet that person. But I've met lots of Christians, including on this channel.
Christians.
Misunderstanding Jesus since 30CE.
Acts says Pau was a fraud Roman agent provocateur the Apostles did not believe his conversion story.
Yes. He was analogized to Pyrrhus the Fool of Hope.
I see very little difference among all them. They all preach in one way or another the cord of Jesus teaching. Love and respect one another. That's what is important, anything else is just a waste of time. What we all humans Christian and not Christian need to do is to follow Jesus teaching and love one another. Everything else is bologna!!! That was a very hard thing for the Pagan back then . They all had different gods and most of them believed in an eyes for eye, and Jesus said (an eye for an eye would make soon everyone blind)
Because of that horrible teaching of love and respect the pagans killed almost all Jesus aspotles .
Very well said.
Paul had a "messenger from Satan"? That's the most symbolic/poetic description of mental illness that I've ever heard...
Not. Think of the crowds stirred up to stone him. That could well be an angel at work and Paul may have known that.
Jimmy, your thesis that Mark is derivative of Pauline Theology is crap. It is the theological equivalent of denying the law of gravity. It amounts to science fiction, in that it requires time travel to get ahead of the surveillance reports of both john the Baptist and Jesus of the 10th Legion which comprise Quelle , as well as Pilate's lost euangelion to Tiberius cited by Tertuullian and perfectly consistent with the SOP's of the Roman bureaucracy.
Now, I took your Mark course and found your description of the 10 events in Mark 11 and 12 compelling and totally consistent with the actual chronology of the creation of the Gospels, As I've written on numerous occasions in these commentaries, your intuition that the narratives of Mark and john are entwined is the future of Christian scholarship in contrast to your need to corrupt the literature to support your thesis, By corruption, I mean your assertion that Pilate ordered the arrest of Jesus and cite a corrupted translation of John 18:3 that Judas took a cohort of Roman soldiers to arrest Jesusm along with your corruption of the Apostle's Creed editing out the verse "Suffered under Pontius Pilate" in an example of the dialectical Marxism you and Dom Crossan employ for your theological revisionism.
As I say, with blatant misrepresentations like that, the only verdict I can deliver is that you are engaged in academic mal practice which is totally typical of the communications strategy of the anti-draft agenda of the Students for a Democratic Society, it's like Kellyanne Conway's "alternate facts" of the January 6 conspiracy of the Trump MAGA agenda.
Shame on you
Jesus was an angel. Jehovah promises to send an angel to lead the Israelites, and sends Jesus son of Nun. In Judges chapter 2, an angel leads the Israelites from Gilgal, which is Jesus Nun's campsite in much of the book of Jesus. After the angel scolds the Israelites, Jesus Nun dismisses the crowd, each to his own tent. No mention of what happened to the angel. No mention of Jesus' arrival. Jesus is an angel, who keeps reappearing. (Jesus Nun, Elishua, Jesus of Nazareth). All fiction to me, but who knows?
It seems to me that the gospel of Mark was written by John Mark a companion of Paul and Barnabas.. A lot can be seen in the acts of Barnabas. Paul was bringing in division with his gospel. I'm persuaded that Paul had Barnabas murdered and also James the brother of Jesus the Christ.
I hoped for an elucidation on the effects of Mk 1-11 and Mt 17-5's use of 1st and 3rd person pronouns. No such undertaking was forthcoming. I don't think Tabor has a perspective. In contrast I DO have a point of view. Mk. is nominative, and apparently administrative, speaking directly to a subordinate, while Mt. is apologetic and an appeal to the wider audience. God doesn't plead. Pride of place, therefore, is awarded to Mark. I appreciate Mk. ignoring the conception narrative. All of that is a Hellenistic corruption and probably influenced by John's force of person. Instead, I choose to accept the creation motif of Is, 42-1.
Christ saves from sin and death of cross
Waste of time 👎🏼
... Mark, Paul etc... they are not black Hebrew Israelites... but white caucasian from mountain sire... christanity a Greek Roman religion... jesus zeus christ, the christan demigod.