Trope Talk: Paragons
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- They're good! They're inspiring! They'll help the helpless just because! They're staggeringly out of place in modern nihilistic grimdark! Today we talk paragons - the definitions, the difficulties, and the potential for cruel, cruel character flaws.
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Now I'm curious about the Accidental Paragon:
- Tries to do Evil
- Is absolutely not the good guy
- Somehow ends up doing the right thing anyway
- Inspires everyone else
Edit: I should clarify a couple extra things
- Never has a redemption arc
- Does not want to do good at any point
- Is not necessarily the protagonist or antagonist
- If they are aware that they did good they would certainly be upset about it
Edit Edit: Dr. Doofenshmirtz has been suggested to death already, thank you very much
That I would like to see:D
It is definition of bad 90's anti-hero. If you want example of unusual paragon, then it is Twilight Sparkle from MLP. WAIT! Let my explain. Thing is about that show that almost all protagonists were villains in the past. That include not only obvious like Luna and Discord, but in fact both Celestia and Cadence did have shady aspects of they history. Not to mention that members of main 6 were in fact largest assholes in Equestria, with each having dedicated episodes about that. Speaking about Twilight herself, it is implied that she is basically a hair of Dark Lord, not to mention a psychopath with OCD. But because she put lot of work into learning about friendship she become paragon of it, inspiring not only her friends to improve themselves, but also other and even some villains. If you don't believe, here is her exact "evil" clone:
ruclips.net/video/Tcs561_68Bk/видео.html
that is straight up the plot of Megamind
the only thing I can think of is either Stain from My Hero Academia, or Garou from one punch man (before a certain point in the story).... I think Stain is the better example
@@stephenkrahling1634 Not really. Stain don't try to be evil. He only hate fake heroes (plus is psycho), and start respect Dekku after recognizing that he in fact is a true hero.
A paragon and a "villain who legitimately thinks he's doing the right thing" would probably have an interesting interaction.
Lex Luther and Superman
@@Jacob-nh9yv yes, but Lex also knows he's SEEN as the villain by the public even if he himself doesn't think he is one. Also he's a business man and politician.
@@Jacob-nh9yv Billionaires/CEOs can't be villains who think they're doing the right thing. It's not fun. You have to be able to relate to them.
Inorder for this to make sense in a story they would both have to have a good end in mind and have 2 different ways to reach that end l
@@mattking4946
The same end or?
"I'm just trying to make a better world and the world would be better without you in it." Possibly the most chilling paragon phrase there is.
it's even worse when the protagonist is the paragon and they say that about themselves
@@kaboomgaming4255 Old man Luke Skywalker:
@@kaboomgaming4255 ...well that's depressing
Yo where's this from?
That is when you start running
What I would like to sometimes see:
Ally/Villain: Why are you doing all this?
Hero:(smiles a bit sheepishly/embarrassed) You know that warm and fluffy feeling you get, when you know you helped someone?
Ally/Villain: Really? *That's it?*
Hero:(shrugs shoulders) Yes, pretty much. I just like helping people.
Altruism can be its own emotional reward and doesn't always need lengthy philosophical justifications as your raison d'etre.
It's like the Doctor said. Because it's right, because it's decent, and above all it's kind.
Villain: *deep in thought*
There is no realy selflessness, we help to gain something, someones apriciation or our own, a lighter mind, feeling better about our self, to fullfill a need of ours, but as long as we help, why care if we did it for ourself in the end, it still is a good deed
@@SingingSealRiana So if helping people... makes you happy... then you're NOT selfless? That's what always comes to my mind when people make that kind of argument- to be fair, it's splitting hairs since you didn't mean it wasn't GOOD. But, it seems to me like it's an unnecessary hyperbole to describe 'Selfless' as meaning you can't get ANYTHING out of it. Selflessness means that you get more fulfilment out of helping others than DIRECTLY seeking your own benefit.
@The Rational Rifleman Doesn't sound like the Objectivism I've heard of. Not enough jabs at poor people.
I think it's interesting that people often call purely good paragon heroes "unrealistic". I don't think that's the case. There are some people who actually are like that.
It's unrealistic for most people...but also, who cares if it isn't realistic? Usually characters like that are written to look up to, not as much as relate to.
I can confirm this. My mom is one of those people, and even though she spends hours venting about how hard it is for her to do stuff like look after a close family friend with cancer, it has genuinely never occurred to her that she can just sort of... not do that.
Simply put, it's unlikely rather than unrealistic.
@@cognitiveTrifurcation Are you my long lost sibling or what ?
My mother is exactly like that too !! XD
Funny how at the end of the video she casually predicts MCU Thanos
Red: **describes Captain America and his Paragon nature**
Me: **finally understands why my best friend hates him so damn much**
Is it his perfect teeth? I bet that's it, yeah.
AND on top of that he's wrapped up in the red white and blue FOR FUCKS SAKE I HATE HIM FDFHSLAKJFOAHKGLJEWYOIHFUJVA
I like him in a distant, what a perfect guy, kinda way. If I met him in person, his attitude would irritate me.
"Holier than thou". That's the phrase you're looking for. Anybody who doesn't hate Captain America hasn't actually thought about what it would be like to deal with a person like that.
I have met such people. I actually kinda like them. They're refreshing.
"Hey, I think I finally figured out why it's not an Avengers movie."
Yea, thanks for finally explaining that. I always thought it was a marketing ploy before watching your video.
Same. I full-on disagreed with the "Captain America" title until just freakin' now. And now it makes sense.
It could still be both
It’s also been Hulk and Thor weren’t in it
Just because it makes sense, doesn't mean that the marketing wonks weren't totally at work anyway, you know.
That doesnt make sense as a marketing ploy
7:12 "Even Batman is more of a team player than he is."
Ouch!
Batman: “I work alone”
also Batman: maybe one of the best team player in DC
(well, at least in most iteration)
Bat goes in solo when he can but if someone else is there he will fight as a team player.
@Mr. Al Yes the best leaders are the most reluctant to take power. Look at everyone from Friedrich the Grate who only wanted to play music and read poetry to the Roman Emporor who retired to be a grape farmer. Those who lead in time of need and leave when their job is done are the best.
See also ‘Young Justice’.
That's honestly why I hate when people say he's a "lone wolf" when he was literally the guy who invented sidekicks. Sure his personality sucks and he ends up being toxic to everyone around him, but in the end he does recognize he needs help and others need him
Here's an interesting one people don't often think about: Saitama from One-Punch Man.
Now he's not the most moral man in the universe; far from it. He's actually very jaded and pretty cynical by Season One Episode One, and doesn't really change from arc to arc. While he does make new friends and become more involved in the world, he's treated more like a side character. Everyone else is the protagonist in their own story, only for Saitama to come in, wipe the floor with them, and realize something about themselves.
Genos, Bang, Fubuki, King, Suiryu, Garou. All of these people and more come into contact with Saitama, and realize just how little power they have in the grand scheme of the world. It makes them completely re-examine what their priorities are and how they should interact with the world. Saitama doesn't really change, but the people around him do. He's not a perfect person, but that's kind of the point. He's NOT the heroic ideal, but he still saves people anyway. He could rule the world if he wanted, but he just would rather eat some good food and play some video games. He's a simple man, in a world where people overcomplicate absolutely everything.
That is a very good point, but then there's metal knight.
Also King knew he wasn't powerful
One thing: Saitama does have a moral compass. Afterall, he wants to be a hero precisely because it's fun. For him, what heroes do (ie. Save lives) is fun. Basically what Stain wants in a hero. A person who does good because they want to do good. It's not that he doesn't have a moral compass, it's that he's just that out-of-touch with the world.
@@user-bj5ki6sr6c yeah. Saitama wanted to be a hero because he finds fun helping people. He's just a bit dense and not the brightest tool in the shed
About the last part where he could rule the world if he wanted too... Technically he can't the point of his OP nature is to show no matter how powerful you are it sometimes doesn't give you the happiness you wanted
TechnoKnight she was looking kinda funny,
Sorry
Katniss Everdeen is a great example of a flawed paragon: Her moral compass never waivers and she remains uncorrupted by the forces around her. Yet her inflexibility often prevents her from understanding the bigger picture, and to quote Peeta’s refrain, “She has no idea the effect she has on people.”
My weakness: when the paragon suffers a great loss, then goes on a morally gray rampage, but then just before they cross the line, the lancer stops them and gives the "you saved me from a dark place, let me save you" speach.
That’s Malevolent except the guy is a mile away from the line already because the lancer is so morally gray he forgot where the line even was.
Gon from Hunter x Hunter
Giving Shepard Commander and Vakarian vibes rbn.
ohhh you gotta go read the Dresden Files
it makes me sad when people dislike characters who are just good
Andrew Greenwood it’s so disappointing! One of my biggest frustrations is with people who declare a good character boring, then hold them to unrealistic standards when the character’s flaws come through and mistakes are made. In some cases, there’s a very strong vibe of resentfulness toward the character-as though they lord their goodness over everyone, as though just by existing, they’re claiming superiority-no matter how many times the character admits their flaws.
@@mrsb50 the story of cane and abel in the bible elaborates on this theme
I think that sometimes people who act like jerks in real life feel offended by characters that are "too nice" because it highlights their own bad behavior.
Similarly, they tend to gravitate to characters that validate their behavior, hence the classic "jerk sue".
@@zoro115-s6b agree but it depends on the character too
@@FreshZCORD Sure, a character can be nice but still be annoying. Usually though I think that's because other parts of their personality aren't well written. Or sometimes because the character is too preachy about their niceness.
I personally think the best way to spot someone who's offended by good characters because it reminds them of what a jerk they are is that they constantly try and tear the characters goodness down.
They'll take a character that was obviously intended by the author to just be a kind, compassionate person, and start picking apart everything the character does to try and find some ulterior motive or hidden dark side.
This is especially funny to me. I used to make my own comics. Did the art, the dialogue, the writing, everything. One of my favorite characters to write was literally named Paragon, and that's exactly who and what he was. He had his troubles, but they often relied on the fact that he was a textbook cape and tights hero. He was such a boy scout that half the time I had to listen to the Mighty Mouse theme song to write him correctly.
Comes in with a big smile, does a pose and gives a cheesy line, then does his best to save the day. He was the kind of guy who volunteered in homeless shelters. Helped the elderly cross the street or move things. Got cats out of trees. Caught and returned runaway balloons. Etc. He wasn't the most powerful hero in my comics. But he was up there.
I found that more often than not the true conflicts lied in his personality. The final issue I wrote him in involved his greatest conflict, one he handled very well. He had been in a fight with an exceptionally durable villain. To which he used all of his power to defeat and promptly nuked the villain. Every house around him for a block radius was flattened. Three block radius, the windows melted and the houses were burned. Five block radius the windows shattered and plant life was negatively affected.
Paragon didn't expect this as he had never used this much power at once. So when the police showed up he turned himself in for the murder of the villain and the possible deaths of others and mass destruction of property. During his own trial, he demanded the maximum sentence for his crime. I believe the line was "If I'm allowed to walk free. What message does that send to the children of America? That with enough power and prestige one can get away with anything? No... Your honor give me the maximum sentence, I plead guilty to all charges."
That my friend is beautiful. This paragon accidentally caused harm to and property, though arguably because they didn't know it was going to happen they were int the right. This character blames themselves anyway, they think they are responsible for everything and believe themselves a monster when something like that happens. Good job!
Lmao and then theres me who makes my main character the most evil b*** in the whole series and also me who's lesson of my story is that everyones a horrible person in one way or another
@@thecourtjester2610 nah paragons are my least favorite trope
@@1tzm3hh11 my eyes are bleeding on your edge bro.
That's actually really cool. I'm an aspiring story writer and your character seems really cool.
I listen to these trope talks like normal people listen to music
silverfur 123 same
Same
lmao for real
same here
Having it on in the background on repeat, not really paying attention?
5:18 - Honestly, I consider Dick Grayson/Nightwing I to be a much stronger classical paragon figure, if only for his incredible outreach. Any villain dumb enough to even lay a scratch on him will risk becoming a punching bag from practically every single hero organization that Dick had even a tenuous connection to. But you have a point with bringing Batman into this, as It's clear that he got this trait from him.
As a complete aside, I love how it is just an established trope that it is the universal opinion of every straight female character in DC that Dick has “the best ass in the superhero community”.
@@andrewjohnson6716 Not just every straight female hero
@@andrewjohnson6716 It’s just a generally accepted fact that Jim and Juan are the best glutes out of all humanity. And possibly the best out of all humanoid species in the universe.
"It's alright now! Why? Because I am here!" ~All Might
Mo daijoubu! Naze tte? Watashi ga kita! - Oru Maito
@@Halo-lg7rq nice
"No you don't Because I am here "
-All for One
A-are you? Mohammed Avdul!
@@TheMrBonzz "YES, I AM!"
"Captain Goddamn America" is literally one of the best lines I've ever heard.
That is America’s Ass
Language!
I want a t-shirt that says 'Cause I'm Captain Goddamn America, son'
Ah, the old quote: “What are dense? What are you stupid or something? Who the hell do you think he is? He’s Captain Goddamn America!”
All hail Captain Goddamn America!
1:55 what’s ironic about this is that it’s specifically stated in the DCAU that Batman was the first hero and that Superman came after him, with Martha Kent referring to him as “That Nut in Gotham City” in the first couple of episodes
The bigger aspect of Paragon-ness, vis a vis Captain America: Civil War, is that it pervades the very themes and conflict in a broad sense. Captain America represents Paragons and Ideals, whereas Iron Man represents Pragmatists and Compromise.
Tony believes that superheroes need oversight because they are fallible, and that you must compromise in order to achieve Ideals. But Steve believes that superheroes not only don't need regulation, but _shouldn't_ be regulated. Because governments are fallible and frequently corrupt, and will drag superheroes down from their ideals into the mire of bureaucracy, politics, and power. The two men differ in their belief over whether or not heroes can live up to their ideals, and whether or not they must compromise their ideals and autonomy in order to get stuff done.
That's an intriguing way to see it. Thanks for the insight.
That’s the problem with this governments can be called out because their decisions are possibly life threatening also the only reason they’re corrupt is cuz of money which HELLO TONY STARK!! So that’s what bothered me bout civil war
A gross simplification would be that Tony distrust the individuals and believe governemental/organisational oversight is the best fix to that while Cap believes into the individual,uniting them but distrust the organisation s themselves.
nam oma I feel like they should’ve listened to the genius I mean if they had listened long enough to start fixing up the accords then this could’ve all been avoided
When you said superheroes shouldn't be regulated, I remembered how Rorshach responded to the implementation of the Keene Act
He wrote "Never!" on paper
And that very note is on the body of a man charged with multiple rapes and I think murder
A surprisingly good example of a paragon villain would actually be (many but not all characterisations of) Magneto. He is dangerously certain that humans are terrible, corrupted beings that turn their fear into bloodlust to allow them to cruelly and callously destroy mutants. He believes this due to being a Holocaust survivor and having seen the horrors that humanity is capable of as a young child, only to be saved by a fellow mutant (although this history is regularly glossed over and ignored in recent tellings) because of this, these things he's considered as facts, he believes that if he doesn't act constantly, aggressively, violently, that mutants will meet as horrible a fate as he once did. He works against professor X is because more than just 'a word to the wise is sufficient but a fool must be beaten over the head' but rather that humans are inherently incapable my their malicious natures. That not only are the words of peace and coexistence falling on deaf ears, but also irresponsibly dooming the next generation by essentially setting them up to die. I don't have the time or space to write the huge rant about what would equate to a psychological and thematic analysis of Magneto and some of the classic tropes he hits, but even purely from the standpoint of a paragon, suffice it to say It makes him an extremely interesting and multifaceted character when properly characterized and well written. Or at least when he isn't being written as either a modern Voldemort or a Captain Planet villain.
Magneto is certainly a very fascinating character, in particular when pitted against the Professor. Xavier is _not_ a good person just because he claims to be a pacifist (which is also nonsense, of course). He regularly violates people's minds, erases memories for dubious reasons and changes peoples' innermost beings through mental domination. He doesn't respect _anyone's_ integrity or right to privacy. Magneto on the other hand is quite a different leader, he's physically violent and deeply traumatized sure, but he respects other people (well, mutants at least) in a way that Xavier certainly doesn't.
It's Cyclops that does the Paragon-ing after all; Xavier hurts his own people more than he hurts the enemy, while convincing them it's for their own good. His idea of "peace" replaces the monopoly of violence with psychological control -- he _is_ Big Brother. He's basically an NSA psi-ops version of MLK, and that's bad news if you ask me. Freedom without liberty is no freedom at all.
Let's not forget the New Mutants either. Magneto _was_ the headmaster at the school for quite a while!
EDIT: Realized I have to qualify this by saying it's about the "classic" X-Men of the 80s and 90s. This is Marvel after all.....
AlphaMonster he is the ultimate misanthrope.
What a good point! Magneto definitely is a good example of a paragon villain with an actual backstory to why he is that way. To probably everyone, he's a very obvious parallel to Hitler for that. Obviously, Hitler thought he was doing the right thing, or so we think. Magneto after living through the very awful circumstances of World War 2, becomes the almost equal and opposite reaction to the very same thing, which is both horrifying and interesting for a character. Thank you for some very good points on Magneto!
I wanted to mention that Xavier is a parallel to Winston Churchill from WWII, the same way that Magneto is a parallel to Hitler. Winston Churchill obviously was well-educated and had a Noble peace prize and was, of course, a great speech-maker, but he did do a lot of awful things. He was very racist and let a lot of people starve in India, and possibly blamed the Jewish for the Soviet Union. In WWII, he ironically had a "great repugnance" for Nazism, and many of his speeches for freedom and democracy were later used by the people he tried to oppress. The greatest parallel obviously is the fact that Xavier is English and that he does a lot to repress his own people, because he thinks he's better than them and because they are the very minority that is under fire. (Quite literally in Churchill's case, although he was not a part of the many groups he killed.) I hope what I wrote makes sense, I'm very tired
This is exactly why Magneto is one of the best Marvel villains out there. Even if you find his actions morally reprehensible, you can usually understand where he's coming from. How could you possibly convince someone that humanity is inherently good when that person has not only seen humans abuse, torture and kill not only mutants, but their own kind for no obvious reason other than pure hatred? And Magneto may oppose the X-men at almost every turn because he believes they are doing more harm than good, but he would never, EVER subject them to the same things he experienced as a Holocaust victim. Even at his most evil, that's a line he absolutely will not cross. He's the epitome of Lawful Evil.
Well, at least when he's being written well. Lots of writers tend to accidentally or even intentionally make him Mutant Hitler without realizing the irony. At his best, Magneto is written to parallel Malcolm X. Extremist, yes, but still acting on the belief that his actions are for a greater good.
"The anger of a good man is not a problem. Good men have too many rules."
"Good men don't need rules. Today is not the day to find out why I have so many."
OMGGGGGGG
Thinking about it, the Doctor is 100% a paragon (well, except for Nine, but he was jaded so). He always does what he can to do good, to save the world, or to save just one more person. Ten even goes so far as to say "I could do so much more," had he had longer to live. He also drags people with him into the whole saving-the-world thing, the big example in my mind being Captain Jack Harkness, who went from con man to my-job-is-literally-to-sit-here-and-wait-for-opportunities-to-save-the-world. Rose, Martha, and Mickey are also good examples of this.
@@chloej1611And Rory even called Eleven out on the fact that he makes his companions want to be like him.
I feel like a "Captain Goddamned America" shirt drawn by Red would be something I'd love in my life.
Hp CriticAll I want that too
Hp CriticAll never new I needed it until now. I NEED THAT IN MY LIFE
For real though.... Red and Blue need to look into selling gym tanks with this kind of original art on it.
The market for nerdy workout gear is nearly untapped and is wholly untapped by indie sources.
Open up the store with some screen prints of original art, fans buy it, word of mouth spreads, profit.
+
Hell yes
"Characters that are dangerously certain they're doing the right thing" *cough*Thanos*cough*
Movie Thanos, I suppose. Comic Thanos...no way.
I don’t think “dangerously certain their doing the right thing” is a good criteria lol by itself, for a paragon character. Otherwise nearly every non-child cartoon villain would be classed as one. As she said a large part of it is about their effect on other characters and the principles they embody.
Thanos was my first thought on this too- he genuinely believes he is saving the galaxy through his actions, that he is acting in the greater good. Utilitarian paragons make some of the scariest villains.
Thanos has also drawn his own group of followers, through various methods. He also has a large effect on our heroes, as they re-examined their own moral compasses.
* nodds * I thought that and Firestar from Warriors.
Thanos.... and General Zod.
It's sad really. First person I thought of was Solas from DA:I...
Man, that character changed my perspective on games and literature, altering my style of writing even - at least for a while. Or it expanded it more-like, hopefully in a "good" way? ....Hngh.
In the Earth’s Mightiest Heroes cartoon there’s a line where Cap jumps out of a jet to go rescue somebody that’s usually an enemy, when someone still on the jet asks what he’s doing
“He’s being Captain America”
It’s a real thing
*captain _goddamn_ america
Such a good show
I've been so sick of the gritty realism thing for so long. I love paragons, too, so the other trope that's been bugging me with its prevalence lately is the "the good organisation is secretly bad". The ultimate enemy always ends up turning out to be the people the good guy believed in. There is no, "We are good people and those guys are bad people so we will stop them," anymore. Now it always has to be, "I am a good person and those are bad people so I will stop them! Come and help me fellow her-oh, you guys are secretly in league with them. Well, shit."
Agreed. “Realism” turns into cynicism fast. Measured romanticism is actually healthy and beneficial. And now it would actually be refreshing.
What if it's "predictable" that the good organization is secretly evil?
In my story, there's a guy who appears to be a big history and alien biology nerd (he does a live dissection of a creature in a desert market in front of people while talking like he's the messiah and invites the people to his museum in the first chapter), but the reason he's that way is because he's sick of seeing the effects of war on beautiful planets and wants to create a biological weapon to wipe out said alien race or at least to control it. (this alien species is basically space zombies) To help his research, he constantly kidnaps infected people, or even regular healthy people and infects them so he always has fresh 'specimens'. So basically he has a big ass God complex that's apparent from the first time he shows up.
@@maevixie7041 So long as his actions consistent with his character and that its something you can see based on his first interactions, then yeah.
The reason that "good organization is secretly bad" is used a lot is because it's a good way to isolate the protagonist, while also showing off their strong morals. After all, it's easy to fight evil when the "evil" is people you've never met. It's a lot harder when you find yourself having to stand against people you knew and thought you could trust.
I'd argue it's a cultural thing based on where our culture's at currently. So many of our institutions have rotted from the inside-out that it's hard for us to believe that good can exist on an institutional level.
"characters who are dangerously certain that they're doing the right thing." TROPE TALK PREDICTED INFINITY WAR
And Fire Emblem: Three Houses. Everyone in that game is dangerously certain that they're doing the right thing.
Matthew St. Cyr true
and learned lessons from the second (and first) world war.
@@henrypaleveda7760 In general you can tell someone's a villain if they insist they're the hero, especially in real life
@@AnilSaulnier true, humility is one of the surest marks of someone who is actually good.
"JLA: Incarnations" actually makes the Superman vs Batman thing here even more explicit by comparing both of their actions in a situation involving the League before either has joined. Supes is friendly, charming, and polite, but tends to rush in before everyone else and almost gets himself killed because he doesn't slow down and listen enough to avoid a trap that can catch him. Batman, meanwhile, comes in with a plan that uses everyone's strengths, but is so cold and curt about it that everyone except J'onn thinks he's an asshole.
It isn't until the day is saved that he turns around and chews Supes out for screwing up and turning what should've been a careful operation into a hasty rush to save his hide before Grodd finished him off. Furthermore, he points out that he acts the way he does because he knows what other heroes can do and respects that if he gives them a plan and a relevant task, they'll find a way to do it. That is to say, sometimes "acting respectful" and actually respecting other people are very different, and the difference between the two can lead to some interesting character development.
Its a wonder you didnt mention All Might from My Hero Aca.
All Might being essentially Superman in that universe inspires most of the cast but most interestingly Stain and Endeavor.
Endeavor who wants to surpass him but never could ends up doing some really messed uo shit to his family and his son just to say that his blood is what surpassed All Might and Stain became a legitimate villian murdering heros who didn't live up to the standards that All Might set. Being so Dogmatic in this idealism that he would simultaneously attemt to murder a kid and risk getting captured and put into jail by saving and going easy on that same kids friends who meet the hero standard.
I always thought that but I didn't know how to put it into words but you did it perfectly. Also props for using the word dogmatic in a proper way.
Same thing with Midorya. He inspired the entirety of class 1-A at one point or another, with almost 75% of the class following his leadership during the provisional license exam (not counting Midorya himself). In addition, he's inspired Stain in the same way All Might did, inspired Kota into respecting heroes, and even inspired All Might himself during the sludge villain attack, which is exactly why All Might gave Midorya his quirk.
I just nutted at this comment.
Stain is technically a paragon too. He fiercely belives what he is doing is right and his ideology influences a wide number of characters, including basically everyone in the LOV except for Shigaraki, Kurogi, and All for one (if you count him as a member), Iida, the character from the provisional license exam with the 'meatball' quirk, Kaminari, who stated he thought Stain was cool), and multiple other characters. The only thing that changed Stains ideology even a little bit was Midoriya, who's also paragon (but his paragon-ness overshadowed Stains because he's the protagonist)
@@artific3r_ Stain himself was inspired by All-might though, as was Midoriya. All-might is the real Paragon but he's pretty deep for a Paragon. I don't think we can call Stain a Paragon because he wasn't around that long. He's more just a one-dimensional character that affected others (and I don't mean any of that in a bad way). Paragons generally have to exemplify a virtue. It's difficult to say that especially of a Villain otherwise we're going to have to start calling a LOT of characters Paragon. Is the perverted kid from Midoriya's class a Paragon? It's his only personality trait. That's kind of what's going on here.
I'm surprised you didn't talk about All Might from BNHA because there is something very interesting here: he is a paragon and is aware of being one. He knows his mere existence is a symbol against crimes and vilains and therefor struggle to always appear strong and good even in the thoughest moments.
Definitely, on par with tv Superman.
.Smol Deku in chair about to watch All night video comes.
Because this was uploaded before that
@@thenew4559 Hes a lot more interesting to me then Superman because unlike him, hes got no problem being a team player since hes not actually infallible or unbeatable. Hes just actively trying to look like he is infallible and could beat anyone even though hes actually severely crippled and fully admits theres tons of people he can't save. Thats why hes not only training the next generation of heroes who will take his place but trusting his teamates with his secrets because he has no problem relying on them. Like he said, thats what make him so interesting, the fact that hes not only aware that hes a paragon but that hes actively trying to appear even more like a paragon then he really is because his mere presence deter crimes.
@@giantWario Though he still falls prey to one of the team-player problems that Superman has, which is a tendency to want to do everything himself because he knows he can do it better, even if his colleagues have it handled and he has more important things to do. The immediate leadup to the USJ incident was a good illustration of this.
I just realized one of the the books in the bookcase is called
Library
Making
For
Dummies
I'm writing a paragon who is manipulated by the antagonist into betraying their friends because its "the greater good". I had a lot of fun with it too because, depending on your perspective, he isn't in the wrong. The situation is morally grey, not the characters
Hey, how did this story turn out?
where can i read it? im in love with this idea!
Funny enough, I recently encountered something similar. In the story mode of the game For Honor, one of the playable heroes is The Warden: a type of knight known for taking their oaths very seriously (they're paragons). Through a series of events, they end up joining the Blackstone Legion; having been led to believe it was more honourable than their previous employer. The Warden is tricked into betraying people they had been sworn to protect, and he discovers that, while some in the Blackstone Legion are honourable, their leader, Apollyon, is a bloodthirsty Darwinistic madwoman. They have a crisis of conscience as a result.
This crisis comes to a head when the legion launches a supposedly retaliatory strike on a Viking city. However, the Warden realizes that this is not a military place. When the mission's over, they demand the truth from one of the other members of the Blackstone Legion: this place was where many Viking clans store their food for the winter. The legion plans to destroy all but just enough food for a couple clans so they'll fight each other over it. The Warden, completely furious, looks at their Blackstone Legion medallion and says, "I took an oath, to fight for peace!" before tossing it and yelling at the member of the Blackstone Legion, "And so did you! As did all of you..." before storming off. One of the more honourable members of the legion later finds the medallion after becoming similarly disillusioned and realizes what it means.
That's like Robin from Teen Titans, when Slade manipulated him
_For the tau_
This sounds like Wonder Woman in her movie. She was so hell bent on killing Ludendorf and so sure that by doing so she could end the war, but completely disregards any of the potential consequences.
Philippine Patriot exactly! I think that Diana's paragon-ness is the movie's biggest strength. The other DC movies are way too afraid to embrace Batman or Superman as paragons and that's (part of) why they suck.
No, it's not that they are afraid it's that Snyder and WB don't even realise the potential of it. They drank the Koolaid and believed that Superman is not relatable and the only reason the Dark Knight did well is because it was a dark movie.
@@spacelizbian3237 I think the biggest flaw in the movie was that after finding out that "woops, maybe killing that guy isn't solving all the problems", the film veers into the direction of "ahah, it's because I didn't kill the right guy! Fixing that now."
In a way, Ares actually hurts the movie by being here, which is a shame.
@@Talyrion if Ares had nothing to do with the war it would have been soooo much better. That he was just sitting back and enjoying it
@@Talyrion they try to do that with his whole "I give them the weapons but I dont make them pull the trigger" speech, and they kind of succeed in supporting Diana's paragon views by having peace come without Ares's influence, but I agree, it does undercut the conflict of a lot of the movie.
Almost all my favorite carachters are paragons and I stand by that. I just find them to be so inspiring and love reading about them, especially when they do have to grow as a person despite their seeming perfection. And they aren't exactly unrealistic - good people exist, too.
This! It annoys me when people get tired of people doing good things, or they say that doing good all the time isn't realistic. Why wouldn't I or them or nearly everybody do good all the time, especially with super powers!?
Everyone's over here citing All Might as the ultimate paragon in BNHA/MHA but IMO it's Deku himself.
He does the right thing because it's the right thing. If someone needs saving, he'll try his damn hardest. That's a big reason why he saved Kacchan, isn't it? Yeah, their past, but that plays into it too, During the sludge villain incident. It's what caught All Might's attention in the first place.
Sports Festival. Todoroki. Todoroki's his enemy in this, but he saves him, in a sense. He throws the match (he could've won if he didn't get Todoroki to use his fire powers, and I'm pretty sure Todoroki said that himslef).
"Appeal to their humanity not their heroics". Hero Killer. It's against the law to injure a villain without a license, but he does so anyways because Iida and Native are going to die if he doesn't. Technically, this is his humanity rather than the hero side of him. Because while we can take a hero as someone who does the right thing, in Hero Aca it's a word used to describe someone who went through the training and obtained a license. Needless to say, not Deku during that
Aizawa pretty much literally called him and Bakugou paragons. Which Bakugou also is, but I think Midoriya is a more prominent and easier to explain example. During the provisional licensing exam arc. Literally, Uraraka thinks 'what would Deku do?' and so do a lot of his other classmates. He just has that contagious effect on them
Ashido, I think, said that him and Bakugou's battle inspired them to do their best. Paragon. There ya have my lazy *ss description at a time past when the flip I'm supposed to sleep
I know this may never be seen but it is also kinda interesting when you consider during the fight between All Might and All For One, he uses a strategy right from Deku's book to defeat him. All For One even comments on this. I find this fun because while Deku is starting to influence and inspire his classmates with his heroics, he also managed to influence the very man who inspired him. just thought I would point out this cool bit
I mean tbf looking for paragons in shounen manga protagonists is cheating. I mean fr.
Naruto? -Paragon
Ichigo? -Paragon
Luffy? -Paragon
The MC of Demon Slayer which is a manga/anime I never bothered to read? -Paragon
Deku? -Well duh you literally just said that
(Also to clarify:
Naruto Shippuden is literally about Naruto being too stubborn in his belief that Sasuke is redeemable, which to his credit isn't exactly wrong, it just takes 3 people all of whom have plans to end the world, one of which is Sasuke, and an arm to convince Sasuke that maybe there is a way that doesn't involve a metaphoprical gun on everyones head
Ichigo risks his own life multiple times to safe Rukia, who upon their first encounter in soul society explicitly tells him that she doesn't want to be safed, but he does it anyways because of course he does
Luffy seems to mostly be inspired by food and finding the one piece, but he does do some good stuff for the sake of doing good and he does inspire others, like Zorro, that one kid from the first episode who then becomes a marine, I think his name was coby or something, and like all of the straw men crew
The whole point of the guy from demon slayer is that he's meant to be as moral as jesus, so yea...)
Well, All Might and Deku have a lot in common. Something All Might himself even remarks on. I think one of the reasons All Might is the ultimate paragon is that he is, unlike most paragons, very conscious of the effect he has on people. His goal, right from the outset, was to become a symbol behind which the whole world could rally, someone so undeniably heroic that his mere existence inspires people to become better versions of themselves.
Deku still isn't ready to be the whole world's symbol of peace, but it is true that he inspires his classmates and is unconditionally good, which does make him a paragon. Bakugo is.... maybe not so great on the whole helping people and doing good part, but it is true that his zeal in getting stronger and pursuing his goal of becoming the greatest hero of all times certainly influences his classmates.
I say this jokingly, but shut up weeb.
@@notapplicable1385 But shounen mcs are some of the best examples of paragons lol
Everyone is talking about Steven Universe in the comments and I'm here just like
Aang from Avatar: The Last Airbender
Francesca Martino OMG YESSSSS👏🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽👏🏽
Francesca Martino
Yesssssssss
I would debate it's not Aang who is the paragon. Like he is the main character, he does good when he can... but he is flexible with his morals and when people follow him its because of his title. And its a title he does not like to flaunt. Aang at his core does not want to be a leader (look at how he lets Sokka and other lead) but he does want to do good.
I would argue that this video os right: It's Katara who is really the paragon character. Katara has a DEEPLY engaged sense of right and wrong. When others are in trouble, whether they are enemy (the painted lady), friends, or bystanders- if Katara sees them in trouble, she naturally wants to help. And when she does there is very little that can change her mind. She stops Aangs mission constantly (like when she rescued Haku from the earth prison) and over steps her friends and family, just to save the day. And as such she often ends up inspiring others to do better too. Heck when she was a kid she changed the entire Northern water tribe to let woman learn to fight, and as an adult she banned and outlawed Blood bending in the world, because she thought it was so evil it had to be erased.
Case and point Aang is a good character. He is the hero. But he does not quite have the mental maturity nor the inflexible resolve in his moral compass that a paragon usually has (for examples look to the great divide where he lies to solve a problem or that time he scams a bunch of people with Toph and Sokka in the fire nation.)
Yeah kind of but not so much. Aang fits mostly for the paragon categories but he actually doesn´t inspire people that much (especially if you account for him being the avatar).
Katara actually fills that role more than Aang most of the time and I would argue that even Iroh comes as a paragon before Aang.
Carlos Meza also refusing to kill is a personal moral, not one he makes others abide to. When Aang refuses to kill Ozai, its his choice and moral compass and upbringing clashing. But he never says don't kill to everyone. Sokka, Toph, Zuko, everyone else he allows to use whatever method they must and lets be honest, Sokka and Toph probably kill the most people in the air ship battle. But its war, Aang understands that. Its just something he personally did not want to do.
Katara again, bans the most powerful waterbending attack in the world, simply because she finds it aweful. Blood bending in her opinion, should NEVER be used, so she makes it illigal. No other form of bending got that treatment but Katara was so adamant on this, that she made it happen.
So yeah, Aang saves the world, he HAS morals, but he does not enforce them or inspire others to join him, as much as Katara does.
I like paragons. I got over "interesting" in HS when a bf lit a campfire on his arm with matches.
Paragons are trustworthy. Wow that's gold these days. Solid platinum juicy goodness like water in a desert.
Ann Murry very big same (minus the succinct, colorful example)
This comment is absolutely fucking cancer go read. Did you have a stroke writing this?
What's that story
My Hero Academia has like three or four Paragons
All Might: classic Superman or Captain American paragon
Deku: Aspiring paragon
Stain: paragon gon wrong
Shigiraki/All for One: Paragons of evil and chaos.
The show’s very simple in this way but so well delivered and still reasonably complex.
anonymousdratini You mean.. para-GONE WRONG? ah hah hah!
@Vox Populi it's an anime about superheroes. It's good.
@@anonymousdratini It's EXCELLENT!
I agree 110% with you
I'm currently writing a story with a sort of "paragon villain", and now that I saw your video, I think I'll just throw even more paragon-ness into his character.
I can't remember where I heard it, but I have heard in many places that the best villains are the ones who think they are the hero. They're not just evil Skeletor Saturday morning cartoon villain that is evil because evil, but they think they are doing good- which makes them much nastier because this is how it is in real life. Crazy dictators who order executions tend to be in the habit that somehow what they do is the good thing. It's like the Nazi officers who moved they're families into houses near Auschwitz and commented on the lovely picnics and countryside life they enjoyed, whilst also operating a deathcamp that they also moved their families next door too. It's insane, but they thought they were doing the right thing which when written well can be far more terrifying then some kind of all evil demon. (Not trying to push 'realism' by the way, it's just a weird coincidence that sometimes what mirrors how we experience life can be quite effective writing even if it isn't necessarily 'realistic')
26CLT Actually, the best type of villains are the ones who are actually in the right, at least to a degree. The Anti-spiral from TTGL and Funny Valentine from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure are "villains" that work for the greater good, but often cannot see the side effects of their ways.
The Alphajaggi TTGL?
Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann
RemindMe!
i want to read thst
You know what's interesting? The moment I heard "paragons inspire others", guess what literary hero I thought of? Good old King Arthur. In one of the books written about him (I can't exactly remember which one) after he ascends the throne and establishes his kingdom, there's like a paragraph about how his greatness spread across the realm or something or other and how knights of "great virtue" and "chivalry" decided that he'd be the perfect king to align themselves under.
King Arthur constantly puts forth values of chivalry and virtue and by all means, he's a great king who ends up going to war against his best knight for having an affair with his wife (which, you know... yeah) and at the same time is usurped from his throne by his own nephew. In the end, his estranged half-sister, Morgan le Fay (who I will always believe that her character needs to get less of the "evil antagonist" treatment in modern retellings and depictions because I LOVE Morgan le Fay, FiGhT mE also I hate it when Mordred and Morgan are associated with each other when they legitimately didn't' but that's just my own opinion, don't kill me) brings him to Avalon to heal and yadda yadda yadda.
I don't know if I even have a point with this but really all I'm saying is whenever I hear the word "paragon" I think of Arthur. End of story.
yes good ok yes job good yes thank yes
you
Bonus quiz:
How many times did she say “captain god dam America”
4 times
Not enough
13
Take a shot everytime she does
Yes
"Paragon till death."
"You ruined it, I'm leaving now."
StellWair oh my god what was this from? I think it was from dbza but i'm not sure
Chiaretta98 it is indeed from DBZA. I had just finished watching it recently at the time I watched this.
Thanks, I thought it sounded familiar ahah
"That's not very Paragon of you."
*spit* "Renegade for life."
You ruined it. You ruined it and I'm leaving.
I'm reading Terry Pratchett's "Guards, Guards!" Again and it struck me how much of an awesome paragon Carrot Ironfounderson is. His belief in what the world should be shapes the world around him.
The reason it stood out to me so much is that, since the last time I read it, I met someone like that in real life. There's a guy I work with who just makes you want to be better; a better person and better at what you do. Paragons ARE realistic, in that they occur in reality, they're just really rare.
I want to make this required "reading" for anyone who wants to play a paladin in D&D.
And this was something I *loved* doing as a DM in DnD. Get a smite-first pally two shoes in your campaign? Put them in a situation where their Order is wrong, or corrupt. Now he has to negotiate between the political ramifications of doing the paragon thing, or being lawfuk and knowingly committing an evil act ( thus falling) in obedience to the commands of his Order or liege. Or have his chapter get declared illegal. Now he's hunted like the Templars. Does he beat down random guards just doing their job? Not very paladin-like.
But nah. Let's strip alignment from paladins so they can be dark & edgy like everyone else. So that in all this gray goo morality, we can't even tell one character from the other anymore.
@@shawngillogly6873 That sounds silly. No one said people can't play a lawful good paladin. Just that other alignments can also be paladins. I really don't understand peoples hang-ups on allowing more alignments to play different classes. In my experience it opens more character choices.
Sometimes people want to play a chaotic paladin that fights for freedom, or free will.
Sometimes people want to play a bard that is not needlessly chaotic, but instead loves law and order and justice and all that.
Allowing for people to have wider choice in character diversity just seems smart, so that classes don't just lock people into archetypes.
Maybe it's just a difference in our experiences, but I've had a good mix of characters in my games from all over the alignment chart,. Lawful Good rogues who use their prior criminal experience growing up on the street to assist in investigations for the crown. Chaotic Good paladins of the god of Chaos fighting for the serfs and taking down abusive nobles and politicians. Neutral Evil Druids who want to bring about the age of fungi, or want to become the apex predator of the world. ect.
That being said I've never been to big a fan of alignment, when I do use it I just use it as a general description of the characters current personality/beliefs, one that is dictated by the characters actions and beliefs, not what dictates how a character should/can act, something that can change as the character evolves/changes.
I've always wanted to make a pally who ends up going against the party because of his sense of what is right clashing against the party's. Seems really fun to play.
@@nef36 Sounds good, doesn't work. Your character is gonna end up disengaging the adventure at every point and the other players at the table will hate you for it (I'm speaking from experience, by the way). Always remember that table top role-playing is a GROUP activity, so everyone's gotta take everyone else's fun into account, no matter how fun they think something might be for themselves.
I know, that's what i keep running into in my mind as a problem, normally I think of it as in a civil war type storyline where there would be a definite time to _break off_ and be fully opposed to the main party, but in my mind, there never seems to be a proper chance to do that, so either I never end up opposing the party like I planned, or what you said would happen would keep happening.
Captain _goddamn_ America
OwlGirl He brings peace to the middle east.
OwlGirl He takes oil from the rich and gives it to the poor.
No more goddamn batman
Language!
He's not special. He's just a kid from Brooklyn.
"So yeah, even paragons can be less than one step away from becoming horrible, horrible dictators, it's just a matter of putting them in situations where their personal definition of the right thing to do doesn't necessarily mesh with ours"
...
I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new empire !
Not gunna lie I thought this said "dragons" in the thumbnail and I got super excited and while this is a good video.... needs more dragons
rexy812 but what about the dragons?????
Poor dragons 😞
We need more of em
No dragons? END HIM RIGHTLY
EVERYTHING needs more dragons.
I like Paragons when it's hard to be a Paragon.
When you can do anything, then I'm not as invested.
It annoys me when people who can do anything don't save anyone, even though they have the power to. They're good, and they try to be good, but sometimes they just don't do enough, and it's not because they can't.
I really love how Kipo, The Age of Wonderbeasts treated Kipo as a paragon, she's very obviously a paragon but not to a level where she just instantaneously cause everyone around her to be willing to die for her. Instead, Kipo has to spend time to try to impress and befriend people and after she befriends a group she has to keep track of her relationships and sustain them
And there's also the plot beat where two of her more violent and cynical friends run off to kill the big bad while Kipo is trying to throw a party in an attempt to cool relations because they think that she's being too naive...
And then realize that assassinating the leader of a group while they are destracted by a different part of the team would be *terrible* for de-escalating things and probably make things even worse, and go home.
Dang that was a good show. I really need to rewatch it one of these days. (Partially because I'm pretty sure that I messed up the details of that beat)
"Someone has to be very complex indeed to be as simple as Carrot."
GNU Pratchett
"Captain God-damn America"
Nice.
language
and blasphemy
One of my favorite examples of a stubborn paragon is The Doctor, specifically the way different showrunners deconstruct this.
Under RTD, The Doctor assumes a burden keeping the universe under control now that the Time Lords are gone. He eventually goes too far with this in "The Waters of Mars" and pays for his hubris when his companion commits suicide to spite him. He realizes he's gone too far with his personal definition of morality and wonders if he's lost his compass.
Under Moffat, Rory actually calls The Doctor out on this in "Vampires of Venice", saying The Doctor's fool-hardy bravery makes everyone around him try to match him (like Amy for example), and that makes The Doctor dangerous in a way he doesn't intend.
We even see Chibnall getting in on the action in the most recent series; when The Doctor confronts The Lone Cyberman, she snaps at her teammates that she has to assume certain burdens that are out of the league of normal humans. "This team isn't always a flat structure," she says, sternly. All different shades of the same idea; what I'm doing is right and I'm the only person who can do it, so sit down and shut up.
i was thinking about this too
he's in a weird situation because he is always trying to do the right thing, but hes also always questioning if what he tries to do is right and knows when he has done wrong, he never 100% sticks to the paragon title, even to himself and i think those character breaks make such an interesting character
@@DodgeThatAttack in a werid way and this doesent fit but its the first thing i come up with hes kinda like both britians batman and superman in a way
@@jadenbryant9283 amazing 👏
@@DodgeThatAttack cool
just noticed that thanos from infinity war is EXACTLY what she talked about with an evil paragon
He strongly believes he is right, but he shouldn’t meet the criteria because he doesn’t strongly inspire other characters to side with him. Sure, he has a couple of alien goons (who mostly side with him out of fear, or idolize him as a god), but his values don’t influence others enough to be considered a paragon.
An anti-villain
He's certainly more of a paragon than the comic version who killed half the universe so his crush would notice him.
Evil Paragon = Zealot
@@thenew4559 A paragon does not by necessity have to inspire others, it is just one trait associated with the archetype.
A wonderful example of a flawed paragon is JD from Heathers.
His love for Veronica and his certainty that people need to die is what makes him terrifying.
I love how in the musical when "Our Love is God" played, where most would change the song's sound/feel they kept it as the same upbeat love song and that helped bring across how deranged his character really is
I sound so pretentious.
bless you for this comment
His newly acquired god complex is also at play there because while before he thought the right thing to do was kill the a-holes of the world he didn’t find a reason to do it, but when he met Veronica and realized there were still decent people in the world to save he was completely assured that what he did was right, The song “Meant to be Yours” displays perfectly how his “paragonnes” depends on Veronica because she was the catalyst. He believes he is a new god but a god is worth nothing to a non-believer.
Adam Potgieter I wouldn't exactly call JD a paragon. There was nothing other than his main character status that showed him to even really be a good person. Yea he had his shy awkward tendencies and was loyal to a fault, but those alone dont make a good guy
Zash of The Kyobi The paragon doesn't have to BE a good person, they have to BELIEVE that they are doing what is right. I for one hate JD sympathisers with the same passion for which I hate Snape sympathisers. "Love" is not an excuse for being a terrible person. But with the technical definition we are given it is interesting to see how he technically qualifies in the same way that Injustice Superman qualifies. I just wanted to make an observation about the music direction.
Adam Potgieter Ye
Under the red hood whole plot is about a character challenging a Paragon's ideals and it works bc the paragon actually cares about his opinion bc it's his son.its such a fascinating concept.
My favorite trope is when the hero
Is force to work with the villain
Teeth-Clenched Teamwork is its name.
Kimi FW my band name.
And then after the short truce has been agreed they kick butt effortlessly. Usually found in the the hero vs villian stories where they either butt heads several times or they have been fighting for so long they know each other better then their own teammates.
When it comes to writing a paragon, the character must be a living representation of the virtues they inspire in others. Exactly how and why they do this is what makes paragon's so diverse because the human brain is a squishy malleable thing that can abstract a lot from very little.
Goku may not consciously do the right thing and has arguably very selfish intentions when entering a fight, but that actually reinforces his presence as a metaphor for good because a truly good person doesn't *have* to wrestle with Satan to do what's good. It's just instinctual. This also reinforces that brains or brawn or not attached to basic human decency and how even idiots can carry the wisdom of not being a dick.
Fighting to get stronger doesn't sound very virtuous, but if we take it in relation to what other characters in Dragon Ball embody I think we get a clearer picture. Goku doesn't train to be the best. He trains to be the best he personally can be and values and respects the progress made by others no matter how evil.
Everyone else in Dragon Ball gets stronger because they have something to prove or because they want to use their power to laud over others, which makes getting stronger about some kind of ego-driven goal and not about the journey itself, which Goku aspires to. It is the purity of his ambitions that give them virtue:
Because he doesn't have any ulterior motive behind his drive to get stronger, there is nothing to get in the way of helping others when the need arises. It's just automatic to him.
Even Gohan's quest to get stronger so he can protect people falls short of this because as a result of his necessarily ego-based goal, even if that ego is working towards the good of all, he constantly beats himself up for not being strong enough instead of doing it for it's own sake.
It's this weird reckless abandon that ironically winds up turning Goku into an ideal: if you want to get good at something, you need to do it because you want to and not fixate on the results of your progress. That is the most effective means of accruing the skills and aptitudes you need to best serve others.
Not begin selfish. Not being selfless. Simply open to whatever bounties or pitfalls come your way and striding on ever as sure as before.
Other paragons have a certain kind of saviness that makes them aware that they are a troupe and so they always make a conscious effort to do what is right, which is where all of the variability in how the goodness of the paragon manifests itself comes from and because goodness is so fundamental that it can take on a great many shapes by it's nature.
Compassion is rooted in the human ability to understand that all they and others want is to gain happiness and avoid suffering.
As long as those things are there, the paragon can assume most any shape.
Corrupt or dangerous paragons are what villains typically are in real life because no one thinks of themselves as evil and we all value our sense of identity and integrity: something that perceived wrongdoings contradict. It really is like we're all playing out the scripts of our own paragon characters.
Sometimes we act upon our beliefs just to avoid the horror of being revealed to be something other that who we beileve we are, because uncertainty is scary, and what could leave you more uncertain than questioning who you even are?
Everything you do is an attempt to reduce the amount of uncertainty in your life and reach a point of safety.
Locutus Borg I really love Goku, thanks for helping me understand why better
Sometimes you just gotta binge watch the whole trope talk playlist bc you lost all interest in anything else and red is the only one who can make you turn off your brain and just vibe
Gotta start picking up in blues videos too
Cool example of the villainous paragon who directly opposes something core and vital in a protagonist's life: Javert from Les Miserables. Especially if you read the book in addition to watching the musical. Javert is a paragon in every aspect of the word and this shows in his occupation as a law enforcement officer; he believes that what he's doing is right and it gets to the point where he literally obsesses over Valjean's crime that was committed decades earlier because he fundamentally cannot fathom the fact that people can change. (Spoilers ahead) In fact, he's thrown into a complete crisis that inevitably kills him because he is so rooted in what he believes is true and right, and his extremely inflated sense of morality also gets a whole bunch of other people killed (see also: Gavroche). There is nothing more dangerous in the world than a good person with a cause.
Sahar Khashayar
Zealots are dangerous.
Honestly, this is why Javert is one of my favorite fictional Villains ever. In the musical, the reason his kills himself isn’t just because he can’t comprehend why Valjean set him free, but it is BECAUSE he was set free. When the Bishop let’s Valjean go, and gives him even more silver, he sees it as an act of mercy, and tries to do his best to become a better person. In stark contrast, when Valjean lets Javert go, Javert interprets this as an act of pity, and he hates that. Javert believes that by being captured and set free, he lost. To him, the evil won, and he lost. He then realizes that in order for him to feel that he won, he must reject their pity, and if that pity is letting him live, he must die. So he dies the ‘reasonable’ thing and kills himself. To the end, he always thought that morality was black and white, and you are either good or bad, and everything a ‘bad person’ does is bad, or at least for personal gain, and when that mentality is challenged, he lets that destroy him.
I like people who are "Perfect, a pure paragon!" And "You can ask any Tom, Dick, or Stanley, and they'll tell you team they prefer to be on!"
Heroic Toast GDI why
Heroic Toast NOOOOOO OOONNNNES SLICK AS GASTON!
"even if i die Dio, my soul will haunt you forever"
-jonathan Joestar
The made up quote is cool and all but it feels ooc for Jonathan.
There's a trope I love sooo freaking much: when a paragon(the most lighthearted and kind person in all protagonists cast), who previously rejected violence and rooted only for peaceful solutions, goes full rage mode and literally crushes antagonist in the most brutal way. Probably because this piece of shit badly hurt the most innocent and lovable person in the cast.
It's just so satisfying to see paragons brake and go wild.
Teen Gohan?
@@BamBam-wt7gc You mean 11 year old, 2 years away from being a teen so why do we call him teen when the one considered to be "adult" Gohan is the actual teenager, Gohan?
Bam Bam I was thinking more Prequel Anakin
Yes, I love this trope
so kind of like Gon Freecss?
"you're wrong you think you're right that makes you dangerous"
literally from cacw
I never realized how much diversity a paragon character could have. Which is good cuz I also love them, but now more so. This is definitely going to help my story-telling skills. Thanks!
The best thing about CACW: both sides had good points, there was no definite good and bad side.
Telsion
And yet everyone insisted we needed to choose the right side. ;-;
Aurora Rider that's what happens in a war.
TheAnimewolfchick Captain America: Civil War
Captain America is a danger and needs to be brought down.
Yeah. But I hated that they kept trying to polarize them so much. I agree with neither side completely. Yes, the Avengers need to reign in their destruction when they can help it and maybe some monitoring could help, but the government's word is worth a grain of salt and handing over your autonomy to them would be possibly the worst mistake you can make. Bucky deserved the benefit of the doubt from the characters because they KNEW he had been brainwashed, but Cap should also have tried better to negotiate with everyone in order to help them see that instead of going all -- "no, Bucky's innocent and I'll fight anyone that says otherwise" and barely gives any other opinion (directly Bucky related or not) any real consideration until the end. Tony was too blinded by his fear and PTSD to realize just what he'd subject the Avengers to (and others) if they signed the Accords and didn't even stop to wonder if Bucky was actually guilty this time.
I really hated the whole "Pick a Side!" thing they used to promote the movie. It's not that simple.
I think the most devastatingly flawed Batman is the one that doesn't kill. As Jason correctly pointed out, how many lives could have been saved if he just killed the Joker?
Him vowing not to kill is his greatest flaw and good writers know how to use it.
But the thing about that is Batman killing even one person regardless of who it is is a slippery slope for someone like him. He even said it himself in the same movie your referring to "If I ever go down that road i'm afraid i'll never stop." It's moments like that that reaffirm my personnel belief that for all his intellect and skills he is mentally unstable and he knows he's mentally unstable. After all, what type of guy believes that killing off an extremely dangerous person like the Joker even in self-defense would turn them into a murderous psychopath who'd put all other criminals on the same chopping block?
Darryvon __ But the thing about Batman killing, and this applies to just about every proper superhero, is that as a vigilante he has no authority of any kind to be the decider on which criminals get to live and which ones should die. That decision is for the courts to decides. While you could make the argument that Gotham's legal is all types of corrupt it still doesn't change the fact that if Batman crossed the line of killing criminals he would be doing so without any oversight, not having to answer to anybody about it, and he'd be doing it on his own terms. Batman is human which automatically makes him fallible so who would he have to answer to if he ever made the mistake of killing a criminal whose crime wasn't severe and could've easily turned his life around?
Also about that "Batman is essentially letting more people die because he is consumed by fear instead of facing it." I believe his fears mainly stem from the idea that if he ever did go down that road he would end up being worse than any villain he ever faced.
Darryvon __ Well the obvious solution to this problem clear: Bruce Wayne should have a little more involvement in dealing with criminals in Gotham. I see no reason why Bruce can't supply Arkham Asylum with enough Wayne-tech that would make it impossible for any one to escape. Or hell, why not take it a step further and have Bruce buy the damn place since he's so rich? that way he can have 24/7 surveillance and do personally screenings of the staff so he can make sure no Harley Quinn or Hugo Strange-types don't get employed and start doing shady shit. That way patients that can be rehabilitated will get the help they need and people like Joker would never get out.
Darryvon __ Sure making Arkham a more efficient and better mental health facility may not be a Completely 100% perfect option but I think that's a lot more preferable than having the heroes start taking the law in their own hands and imposing their will unto others. Because their have been countless alternate universe stories where either Batman or Superman decided to cross the line for the sake of "making the world a better place" only to end up creating totalitarian dictatorships where the Justice League hold absolute power and give no consideration to the rights of others. For example, in the Justice League animated series episode "The Justice Lords" Batman in an alternate universe has people snatched up off the streets just for littering.
You can have a situation where Batman ,or any superhero for that matter, can be given free range to subvert any law he wants just because he as one person thinks he's doing what's best without things being taken too far.
+Cameo Shadowness
And Poison Ivy is also a white male under all those plants, eh?
Didnt see any black villains get death row recently either.
Weird.
After seeing the drawing of Red's idea of a paragon, I can see she had the look of Kendal in her mind for some time. Plus, one of the Paragon's friend has green eyes like Alinua.
So in Aurora are we going to have a party member with an eyepatch?
This comment aged well lol
@@limekitty810 I forgot I made the comment. So at least I have the answer.
Watching this in school and Showing it to my Language teacher
How did they react? Knowing the language teacher stereotype, I bet they hated it with a passion.
J.J. Shank I'm sure the teacher is the cool, vaugely stoner-like teacher trope
I once showed one of blues videos to my social studies teacher
Lol my teacher put on your video about the oddessy to help us learn. Not even sure if I spelt that right so I guess my teacher failed.
Gavinations It sounds more like you weren't interested in learning about the Odyssey anyway.
I enjoyed the video, but it's a lot to take in.
Gavinations True, I understand that. It's a lot of stories in a big book, I think your teacher should've told you about the most important key events first and then maybe shown a video. It can be quite overwhelming. :)
Yeah. Lol
Did you learn the basic story beats and the characters involved?
If this is your thing, you gotta read all the Daredevil. Basically every great Daredevil story deals with this precise duality. My favorite single moment of it comes in Ann Nocenti's era, when Foggy is defending Kingpin in court, and Matt basically goes to chew him out and tell him how terrible he is... and then Foggy's girlfriend at the time (also a former love interest of Matt because who isn't) stands up and flips the script on Matt, arguing that he always has to demand everyone be as "perfect" and "noble" as he is, and how he misses the humanity in people as a result. Basically she calls him an asshole. It's amazing.
All through this I could just hear "PARAGONS ARE GRYFFINDORS" bc let's be real any HP house could be evil and I am disappointed that JKR did not take time out in any of the books to talk about this and instead went "everyone knows there are only 4 kinds of children. therefore we should stick a bunch of 11 year old children in that terrible house and let them know they're terrible and let the other houses know they;re terrible bc they're terrible"
Listen, Hufflepuffs value loyalty and hard work, not niceness, so imagine if a villain managed to inspire that sort of tenacious, unbending loyalty. Ravenclaws value intelligence, wit, and creative thinking and are essentially the mad scientists who do terrible things bc they want to see what would happen. This video already explains why Gryffindors are bad: they're recklessly brave and don't listen well to others.
I totally agree with you but for the Hufflepufs scenario (wich would be *SO COOL* but anyway) as a Hufflepuff myself I know that we value loyalty and hardwork but I think that above all of this we want peace. Wait that's not the word but imagine, like there is an argument between two friends and the puff is the mediator : He will try anything for the 2 parties to reach an understanding without anyone being hurt in any way possible. Do you see what I mean like we don't want to hurt someone so we will make anything possible to find the perfect middle ground. With knowing that, I don't really see how a Puff could be a vilain, I *know* it's possible but we don't want problems or anyone being hurt and if we are angry or really in a bad mood it's generally because someone disrespected our friend/family/someone close to us. And even in that scenario, with time and patience we will forgive it, but not forget it. God, I ranted, I'm so sorry but this idea with all the House is just so cool I had to understand
TheScarlet Butterfly it would be pretty entertaining if a Gryffindor was the antagonist and a slytherin was the protagonist, mix it up a little.
Well there are Gryffindors that are far from being paragons like Percy Weasley, or worse, Peter Pettigrew. I totally agree about the evil Hufflepuff thing. Jo HAS said that HUfflepuff is the house that has produced the least amount of dark wizards, but I get the feeling that the ones that did come out of Hufflepuff could be quite sinister. Like a Hufflepuff Bellatrix. I'm hoping that's exactly what she's going for with Leta Lestrange, though
Technically Slytherins are just ambitious, often to the point of flaw, but still. Ravenclaws are, or try to be, unique, usually fearing normality or not standing out. Hufflepuffs are, basically as you said, hardworking, down to earth kind of thing. Gryffindors probably have the most potential to be the worst. They're very judgmental, often believing themselves to be, without question, right. This can lead them to push out oddities or moral greys from any group they're in. Honestly, it's almost ironic the two houses who butt heads are Slytherin and Gryffindor, because they both have the most potential to be the arrogant, judgmental, stubborn kind of villains.
Kken Ze Poussin think of this: the hufflepuff thinks that what they are doing is the way to bring peace and the main villain exploits this, making them think that doing evil (whatever that may be) *is* the way to bring peace. I still wouldn't think them as a main villain tho.
Paragons, especially invincible ones, work perfectly as protagonists in tragedies. Everything going to shit becomes a lot more profound and emotionally impactful if it happens *even though* the incorruptible hero did nothing wrong and even though he defeated every villain who ever tried to fight him.
Great tragedy feeds off the contrast between the greatness of the paragon (a Siegfried or a Lohengrin, let's say) and the smallness of the manipulation (a single false belief or seed of doubt) required from the villain to thwart their happy ending.
Bit of an old video, so there's not much point in me commenting this now - but I just wanna say, this video, everything here, is exactly what I love so much about the character of Sonic the Hedgehog.
Sonic is a great example of a paragon. He's a hero with a heart of gold, he has set in stone morals and always makes an effort to do what he sees as right. He helps anyone around him whenever he can - be it inspiring characters such as Tails to become the best version of themselves, inspiring characters like Shadow and Silver to see the flaws in their actions when going against him and end up helping him against Eggman, and of course, constantly beating Eggman every chance he gets to make sure he hurts as few people as possible.
However, this is also his greatest *flaw.* His devotion to help people be their best and help everyone around him can sometimes be so strong, it becomes his weak point. One of the best examples of this is in the currently running comics published by IDW. Near the beginning of the comic, Eggman loses all his memory. He ends up forgetting every awful thing he's ever done, instead residing in a small village with the alias of "Mr. Tinker", where he builds things as he usually does, but this time as the benefit of others. His vision for "Eggmanland" is no longer this huge theme park created to take over and control most of the world, but is simply a way for kids to have fun in this nice carnival.
Sonic, upon seeing how Eggman has changed, is conflicted. On one hand, Eggman could very well end up doing something awful in the future if he's simply left unchecked, and hurt people, going back to his old ways. (This is why Shadow tries to stop Sonic into getting to the village, only for Sonic to remind Shadow of how he was redeemed, and convince him to let Sonic go.) On the other hand, Eggman isn't hurting anyone as is. He's an innocent man simply trying to help people, and that's exactly what Sonic has always wanted to see him become. Sonic still believes there's genuine good in Eggman, even after all this time, and this proves it.
So, left between the choice of dealing with Eggman now or letting him do his thing in peace, he of course goes with the second option. However, this ends up becoming a huge mistake. Later in the Metal Virus arc, Dr. Starline, a scientist inspired by Eggman who wishes to help him in his plans while also helping him to be even better at the awful things he does (directly opposing Sonic's desire for Eggman to do the opposite), gives Eggman back his memories. This results in Eggman and Starline creating the Metal Virus, something that will turn any living, biological thing into a metal "Zombot" which will infect anything it touched and do their bidding. Upon realizing the mistake he made, Sonic is devastated, and some of the other characters are actually mad at him, especially Shadow and Espio. In the end Sonic manages to completely get rid of the virus by using the 7 Chaos McGuffins and all that, but the impact is still there. When Eggman attacks the afterparty celebrating their victory and is of course inevitably beaten, Sonic looks longingly at Eggman as he runs away, saying he'll beat him as many times as it takes until Eggman changes. It's a surprisingly powerful moment that reminds you that despite the everlasting rivalry between them, there's a part of them that isn't isn't different. They're the same in the way that they have their own styles that they won't change, but one is evil and one is not, so there's only one that can win or lose.
Very long and stupid essay under a several year old video, idk why I even wrote all this, I just wanted an excuse to nerd out about Sonic. Still, I hope anyone who takes the time to read this finds it interesting.
Yay! Someone mentioned Sonic!
Wanted to add that this shows up again in Sonic Frontiers (although Sage wasn't giving him much information to work with) and Sonic and the Black Knight, in which Sonic is just doing what he thinks is best, even if it means fighting impossible odds & dooming a kingdom in the end
I love paragon heroes too, especially Commander Shepard, one of the best ones out there.
I tried to play renegade, but it just left a sour taste in my mouth.
That's because Bioware makes evil choices cartoonishly, mustache twirlingly evil
I can’t be dirtbags to Tali and Garrus.
Shoutout to Commander Shep
Same here.
@@JAGRcheckm8 Commander Sheep
I think this is actually a really interesting analysis: If any warriors fans are out there, you might also think that the way she describes a paragon could describe both Hollyleaf and Firestar. While Firestar's moral compass is almost always for the better of the entire forest, Hollyleaf takes enforcing morals to an immoral level, which makes it frightening as Red described. Hollyleaf based her entire life around the warrior code, and she believed that anything outside that was wrong. While it's wrong when defined by the warrior code, the way she has people make up for these aren't morally acceptable, even if they are equal. This is a really interesting analysis! I really love these videos :>
yessss i rewatched this and was just thinking of Warriors, primarily Firestar.
Thank you for pointing this out. I had noticed that Hollyleaf defined her sense of right and wrong by the warrior code and wouldn't break the code even if it meant long term good for the forrest. I just had never thought of Hollyleaf as a paragon until now. ;)
"There's only so nuanced 'good person who does good' can be." Counterexample: MK from Lego Monkie Kid.
MK is a fascinating example of a paragon hero who has a meaningful character arc that isn't "they're too rigid in their idea of good." MK's key weakness, from the beginning, is his lack of self-confidence. He's still a paragon (always does the most right thing he can think of, and his goodness inspires others to be better), but he's not the confident lamp of charisma that most paragons are. And much of his earlier development is centered around gaining a bit of that self-confidence.
But … he also has A LOT of other things going on, most notably a sense of responsibility and obligation to save the world because of his fancy schmancy powers, mashed with the fact that he DOES NOT WANT to be doing any of this (he just wants to sit back and have fun with his friends).
Then ramp up the self-esteem problem to "keeps gaslighting himself into thinking he's hurting everyone," and suddenly, this character who always does the most right thing starts believing that he's doing the _wrong_ thing by following his own moral compass.
And also he keeps falling back on not-all-that-healthy coping mechanisms, such as ignoring/running away from his problems and constantly turning to the Monkey King for support, when the Monkey King is frankly a pretty bad role model and sucks ass at emotional support.
(I'd also go into the parallels between MK and Wukong and also between MK and a paragon villain, but I've already spoiled more than enough.)
"Dangerously certain they're doing the right thing" Kinda reminds me of Gon in HxH.
"Dangerously certain they're doing the right thing"
So, *villains,* basically?
Hjernespreng Sometimes Villains know what they do is bad,but it's for themselves. It's their ideal conquer,destroy or search for his goals.
+AMVMakerGintoki No it isnt. Noone sees themselves a villain.No one sane anyways.
I need no channel youtube! But in fiction villains usually know they’re wrong
The Complicated Life I guess its written that way just to polarize what good and evil is in said fictional universe
A villain is evil.
An antagonist is someone who opposes the protagonist.
Someone who is dangerously convinced they are doing the right thing is a well intentioned extremist.
One minute and 28 seconds in, and I'm realizing I've written characters like this! sure I like to write characters with creative flaws, but I also like to write characters that are sweet and friendly and adorable and everybody loves them, and the weird thing is, those stories rarely ever revolve around THEM. They tend to revolve more around everybody else and how all those other characters are affected by the existence of that Paragon in their lives. That's so cool...
I have to say, paragons are my favorite type of character. I hear my friends groan about how "boy scouts are boring" but honestly, I feel the most relation to a work when I see a character do the right thing because they believe it's the right thing. Can it be impulsive? Can it have grand consequences? Sure, but that's the human side of the character.
I'm really enjoying this channel.
take a shot every time red says "paragon"
SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS SHOTS
dude you would get shitfaced drunk and have no idea what she is talking about
ow, my liver hurts
lets do sips of beer instead. We'll actually live through it.
ded x.x
I've been thinking of Aang for this entire time. I'm not a huge fan of his character, myself, but there's no doubting that he inspires other people to do the right thing.
You said that the paragon often inspires other characters, but one of the reasons I like these characters so much is because they inspire me. Yeah, it sounds kinda cheesy, but I feel like I’ll be a better person for striving towards that kind of ideal.
Same
I'm suprised you didn't mention Steven Universe, he's also a really good example of doing a paragon character right. But great video nonetheless, really liked the points you made.
Jello Diamond good points, all 3 are good examples of being a paragon. Rose is also a very flawed paragon, in the sense that she did shady stuff in the past, but that doesn't make her bad, unlike what Lily Peet would tell you.
Yes! I was thinking that!
But like despite him SOUNDING like a boring character he is rely interesting.
But he is basically a down right "do good for sake of goo"
"Put others before yourself even at cost of yourself"
"Choose to be happy and make others happy"
Love and share love
Media Detective
Same I kept looking for the Steven pic/gif and was sad when it never showed up.
And now I'm realizing how many of my favs are Paragons
Media Detective If it wasn't for him, we wouldn't have the beauty that is Peridot's lines.
All of Redwall.
I once tried to have a paragon antagonist for a setting I was building. The ruler of an alien world free from war and large-scale cruelty because he, as their king, absorbed their most negative and destructive impulses, experiencing them as nightmares.
This guy was _ancient,_ had seen interstellar empires rise and fall, and witnessed the full lifespans of stars. And all that time, he spent trying to reform civilization as a whole and end the existence of war. He always failed. He tried literally everything; he had all the time in the universe, after all. He hated how the younger, more short-lived species in the universe destroyed each other and themselves for petty reasons, and in his heart of hearts just wanted everyone to get along and not fight anymore.
He becomes an antagonist because of his desperate, absolute last resort: transforming other life into his own race. Other characters think that he’s doing it just out of egomania and an urge to conquer, but in reality, he just wants it all to end. He _hates_ that his most successful solution involves hurting more people, and his own son dies opposing him.
His end goal really doesn’t benefit him at all; once all life has become a part of his people, he plans to seal himself in eternal sleep, experiencing horrifying night terrors _forever._
I consider this guy to be one of the best, most three-dimensional characters I’ve ever come up with. He wants to save the universe and put an end to war and suffering once and for all, and is sacrificing a lot-including his sanity-to achieve this.
I wonder, if we can 'break' a paragon character? As in their sense of self-assuredness that allows them to act paragon gets damaged to the point of second-guessing their actions until they can't charge around doing good anymore. Not changing their views mind you, just enough doubt so that they can't act good in the same way again. Or would that just be character development or the addition of a flaw through trauma?
Jello Diamond Pretty much every time that they do a "hero after retirement and why they retired" type thing, this is the designated fate of the paragon. :/
ihavesomerice Shirou Emiya in the Heaven's Feel is a much better example.He went from "I want to the heroes of jusctice no matter what" to "fuck all of that shit".
That's a common trope, to have a paragon break in a "world of crap" (tv tropes) is the origin story of most jerkasses with heroic backgrounds and foul mouthed heroes
There's also the "Used to be a hero" trope in which someone who used to be a paragon breaks, goes through a dark/insane/angry phase until something or someone sparks a want for trying to glue himself back together into a better person, never getting to it's previous level of goodness but being as good as possible, like in A Song of Ice and Fire (the books at least), that presents us to Jaime Lannister as this amoral beast and little by little inform us on how much he used to believe in "doing the right thing" (he saw knighthood as a call, the whole protect the innocent was very important to him initially etc) and how that ultimately led him into doing his worst to the point in which he couldn't care less.
But some of that paragon spirit is there somewhere, since the story goes on a tangent in which he discovers how deep he sank from his original "paragonness" by putting him in a long travel aside Brienne of Tarth who he at first ridicules for her morals but with whom he starts to compare himself (she being a full on paragon). He even dreams that he had a bright light in him that he let his father and sister snuffle, that the heroes of his childhood turn their backs to him (which he feels ashamed to the point of tears) and when he's into total darkness, the aforementioned Brienne appears in his dream sheltering his last light (cue last chance to do some good).
After being reminded of how it was to be like that, he starts to try reclaiming some of his morals -sorting most of the war with peace talks and negociation instead of murder.
The thing with trying to reclaim goodnes, though, is that this trope is ALWAYS used as a dramatic tool, so you can count wiht either a last minute turn back into evil, an heroic sacrifice to kill a minor enemy (I'm betting Jaime dies killing Cersei in ASoIaF) or with the character becoming an actual full fledged hero but holding the fame of an unredeemed monster into posterity.
First thing that jumps to mind is Samurai Jack.
Harvey Dent is a great example in The Dark Knight. His righteousness inspires Batman and gets half the criminals in town arrested, but also makes him stuborn and dangerously violent.
The tragedy is that after becoming Two Face, he chases his objective with the same unrelenting fervor he used to have for justice
well, Light from death note is exactly the kind of character you describe in the end. Somebody too sure he is doing the right thing.
Luz from The Owl House is a great example of a paragon:
-Helps (or trys to) others with their problems (as in day to day sinarios or charater growth)
-a unwavering kindness to others (except in certain cases)
-creates friend groups
Reminds me of how Gon Freecs is characterized in Hunter X Hunter.
Agreed, although Luffy is probably my favourite paragon overall. They're both flawed and I love that, though.
And thinking on the point of Luffy being a paragon (who believes in freedom above all else)... You could make a case for Akainu and his unwavering belief in absolute justice. ...He's the really scary variant.
Scorpion Sketch I'm not surprised, the author of Hunter X Hunter wrote Yuu Yuu Hakusho, one of the examples in this video (1:06) and the character types were very similar.
Nearly all shounen protagonists tend to be, and it's kinda fun to see how they vary.
Natsu is the simplest, cheesiest variety (friendship power to the max); Gon is the forgiving, malleable kind (willing to still occasionally trust Hisoka, and is BFFs with Killua despite the fact that he's an assassin), but also has a stubborn streak (refusing to do something if it clashes with his sense of honor, even if it brings danger to him and others, like his fight with Genthru); Naruto is even more stubborn than Natsu, and will do what he thinks is right even if everyone around him is against it, it'll kill him, or breaks a shit ton of laws (one word -- Sasuke); Deku will help anyone that needs help even if he's terrified out of his mind; etc.
Their influence is even so powerful that it's sometimes addressed IN SHOW and may even be related to some kind of hidden power (like in Luffy's case), and seeing the evidence of that influence is probably the best part. I love villain-turned-heroes, and seeing others get the courage to be better and do better like with Ochako because of Deku, is so heartwarming and wonderful.
Man, I adore Gon. He's just so shiny and positive and the bromance with Killua gives me the warm fuzzies and
*SPOILER ALERT FOR THE CHIMERA ANT ARC*
I HATE Peto for driving Gon to corrupt his beautiful, pure and good nature. Like, the entire Chimera Ant arc is great and the end makes me cry but Gon succumbing to his anger and rage against Peto always gets me. I don't see it as a "Yeah Gon, you take that extremely costly, OP as hell powerup and kick that son-of-a-cat's head off" I am there thinking "No, Gon, why must your purity be compromised!"
This is what Killua is for... To be there to self-sacrificially make the moral compromise to preserve Gon's overall goodness, despite the fact that Killua himself is trying to be better (inspired by Gon). Which is why, in some ways, I think that part was good. Killua wasn't there to act as his foil and without that he had to become his own foil, but the rampage continued even after Killua showed up to bear witness.
Everyone literally 10 seconds after kelsier’s death
“Kelsier was problematic “
Oof Mcooferson If you’re talking about Kelsier from Mistborn then even his own creator agrees with you. He said in many of his other works Kelsier would be the villain. It’s just that in the world of Mistborn he’s the man they need.
Nice spoiler brah.
@@animalia5554 oh i agree with them on that kelsier aint a good dude
In this DnD campaign I've been playing in, my character is a sort of true neutral Paragon. He is a paranoid necromancer who is basically trying to redefine the meaning of Necromancy as a symbol of structure and order instead of chaos and tyranny. He's effectively amoral, and utterly unshakeable from his path, but still refrains from any truly evil acts out of practicality. Rather than doing what he does out of a sense of good, he does so because he believes he is right, and will literally raise an army to serve as undead public servants to prove it. He's a hell of a lot of fun to play, especially when you combine all that with him being 8 feet tall, decked out in full plate and tower shield, and strong enough to throw a horse
One of his enemies: You really think people are gonna believe tha- *gets decked by a thrown horse*
This is my top three favorite hero list
1.1 paragons
1.2 anti-hero
2 sidekicks
3 regular heros
I think you really wanted to say
"Captain Goddamn America"
a little too much.
Its never too much
Thank you! I know this video is two years old but it bothers me so much that people think that Paragons are flawless and boring when there are plenty of different ways they add to the story and are more complex than they seem since morality is complicated.
It's interesting that we don't see the flip-side of the proposed approach more often, either. By this, I mean the character who *acts* like a paragon, in the sense that they do good whenever they can and inspire others to emulate them - but who, inside their own head, entirely *lack* the sense of certainty that they seem to exude. Such a character would probably work better in text-only fiction, since that's the sort of thing that better lends itself to at-length self-examination on the part of a character, and given the premise that seems like the sort of thing that would happen. But for all that, I haven't really seen all that much of it.
Honestly, the closest thing I can think of is 'Soon I Will Be Invincible', and in that instance, the character masking internal doubts with boilerplate certainty is a *supervillain* - and his book-long extended meditation on whether he's made the right choices in life makes him unusually sympathetic regardless.
So, uh, where's that kind of doubt and soul-searching in yer hero-types? (Yeah, Fatale is fully half of SIWBI, but her alienation from the rest of the world and the concomitant self-doubt is a little more based on what being converted into a cyborg supersoldier has made her into, and less based on her actual choices. I grant that she was absolutely a mirror to Dr. Impossible, but she very much felt like she was approaching the same place from the opposite direction, as it were.)
vdate How about Kaladin from The Stormlight Archive? In many ways he’s a textbook paragon who’s ideals focus around protecting. At the same time he suffers from chronic depression, both the regular medical kind, as well as his world’s equivalent of Seasonal Affective Disorder. And his struggles with depression help to make him a very relatable character for many. Even those that don’t have depression.
I think Spider-Man is a good example of this. On the outside he's a wise-cracking do-gooder, but on the inside he's an insecure mess who blames himself for everything that goes wrong. The main reason he became a hero in the first place was that he blames himself for his uncle's death.
Carrot from the Discworld is a great example of this. He's one of the few main characters to lack narrative sections from his perspective yet is very important to understanding the people around him because he's just so likable he puts their flaws into contrast.
Also, that he IS so pure, good, right, and charismatic absolutely wigs the fuck out of everyone. His stark goodness makes everyone else, who are more natural in mentality, wonder what the hell kind of game, scheme, hustle, or show Carrot is playing.
Benton Fraser from "Due South" was played the same way. Other characters, until they knew him for a while, simply couldn't believe that someone could actually be that way without either having ulterior motives or being insane. Or both.
@@stephenflint3640 and, unlike Cap in Civil War, he is also conscious of his charisma, which I love. He refuses to be Commander of the Watch because he is "good at being obeyed" and pushes for Vimes to be made a Knight. He is a plot device, but a lovable one, and creates the space for so much growth in Vimes, Angua, Detritus, etc.
"Dangerously certain that they're doing the right thing"
Hol' up now, every nazi villain ever fits that description
I was looking for this comment
Wait what?
that's basically any driven villan tbh, or most ideologues
Given how much plundering of valuables they did, I'm thinking maybe not.
Good thing that’s not the only qualification for a paragon
I love how Bucky is Steve's only flaw and greatest strength.
Wow, I'm so deep.
I'm actually writing a story with a Paragon as an antagonist. I SO enjoy these videos.
Probably my favorite character is the paragon that does what they do because they either can't bear the consequences if they don't. It's even better when the 'paragon' is not necessarily a good person but still chooses to better themselves because of someone else.
*Sees title*
...
*Grunt saying "S H E P A R D" intensifies*
*Shepard* "Grunt?"