Trope Talk: Manly Men!
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- After my video on Strong Female Characters, I got a couple requests to do one on male protagonists as a way to sort of "balance things out." Initially I wasn't too interested, but after taking a closer look, I started noticing some interesting patterns in what otherwise appeared to be a totally blank slate character archetype. So that's what I've got here for you today!
Comments? Examples? Disagreements? Wanna bite my head off for not mentioning your favorite story? Hit up the comment section and give me a piece of your mind!
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“Making a mistake is like coughing; happens all the time in real life, not so much in movies”
I literally haven’t recovered from that truth bomb after 2 years. Send help
happens all the time in the movies. Big difference is, few people notice, even fewer point it out. The there is also the fact of "different morality" and perhaps the audience having meta-information^^
Also would like to point out that male protagonists fairly often screw the pooch, leading to a redemptive arc in the story. say... recent Star Trek (uhh also a female superior to poor Kirk), recent "the Expanse": less common in superhero movies though
@@mynameiswritinwater the expanse is very much into debunking tropes and gender equality and it's also a very recent story. We are only starting to notice those things and so there are more exceptions now a days than there were only ten years ago.
@@androkguz well the Expanse was written, ahem published in 2011 so almost the decade so it is _NOT_ recent (ironically by the research assistants of GRR Martin most whose female characters fall into a more classic female role - with the exception of Brienne and Arya who are noted as "the exception") and I do not really think the authors
started a trend, they were just picking up on life's realities... perhaps I know too many succesful and strong women
also ... Red is again quoting rather selectively here to make her point. say "Ghost in the Shell"s protagonist is female, many of the Full Metal Alchemists protagonists are female ( on both sides ); Kyoukai No Kanata is filled with mostly female protagonists, all of which never try to take a cloak of feminism to grab for attention.... and one could extend that list at leisure..
@@androkguz there is also another _unintentional_ problem at work here, the fact that the english language uses "strong" to both characterize physical strength (usually less present in most female characters ) and dominance of the plot/admiration of a story. it's different in other languages. say, In German Stark (strong) vs great (gross, grossartig)...pretty sure that holds true for many other languages.
..besides, there is the cultural bias that male strength is linked to beauty/handsomeness (with causing physcially weaker man "effeminate" ) while that is less the case for female (looking at most models here). And those female heroes who are "strong and beautiful" (say, Wonder Woman ) , it is usually magic/the force/superpowers that explain the brute physical strength on a smaller and well proportioned female frame ?
@@mynameiswritinwater The books of the expanse are not exactly like the show, though. And a decade *is* recent. Specially when dealing with tropes such as this that are so long lived.
“Totally lovable, weedy nerds who never really saw the point in beefing up” you can say Blue, it’s okay.
He is best boi.
Best
Megan Lange I don’t get the reference
@@Fishbiene Blue's another host on the channel. He makes videos on history and culture and such, while Red here makes videos on books and tropes and such. His content's pretty good, too. If you need to research a part of history, he's your man!
@@Fishbiene Blue is the other content creator from the channel and fits those characteristics.
No, the default assumption about what a person is in ancient greece is a featherless biped.
BEHOLD!! A MAN!! 🍗🍗
Featherless is in no way a given lol
AH! IT’S A HUMAN!
Diogenes begs to differ.
*Diomedes has joined the chat
I've always found it kinda weird that being a good cook isn't considered a manly trait when the culinary world can be one of the most difficult for women to get a foothold in due to it being such a dude-centric career for so many years. Ratatouille scratched the surface on this.
Cool.
It's because of the fame and prestige of it. Generally, cooking domestically is considered a feminine thing, while cooking professionally is considered masculine.
@@CollinBuckman yh simelar to (idk if its a purely European thing) To hairdressers and Barbers, most of them are female yet most Shops are Lead by men since the Stereotype insists that male barber is an "artist" while a female one is considered an airhead that couldnt get any other good work
It's like It's only feminine if you're bad at it.
I feel like this isn't a real stereotype. I think she made some pretty random assumptions.
Even the picture of Vegeta she brought up was a good cook, he made some dope food instantly for Beerus.
I think maybe this is a stereotype woman have, because dudes don't think cooking is feminine.
Heck, grilling is considered very manly amongst men.
I think this vid sheds a light on how WOMAN view men, and how they ASSUME we see things.
I feel like half this video is wrong or misguided.
0:34 concerning this I've once seen a interview where George RR Martin was asked why Loras and Renly were gay, or why there were gays in general in his story and he said "well i noticed that there are gay people in the world"
The reson why Peopel ask why is that carekter not streit,with,male is becouse thay normaly atatch an agender in the plot
In the super girl show evry man is an bumbeling inkompetetnt jerk
Evry female carekter is awsome and skilt
The next problem is that divers carekters are often token carekters
Mening that the careczers carekter is that he is gay and nothing more
@@trap-chan "In the super girl show evry man is an bumbeling inkompetetnt jerk "
The three main male characters, Hank Henshaw/Jon J'onzz, Jimmy Olsen and Winn are perfectly able characters that help Kara by their own means.
I mean, you have a super alien almost as strong as a kryptonian, a black love-interest who became a superhero despite not having powers, and a super intelligent hacker who can break down pretty muc anything and even impress an AI of the future, if this is incompetent character, I wonder what's a competent character XD
@@trap-chan wow that is an interesting way of writing a comment.
@@givemeshrubs4295 *impressively skilled way of writing a comment
@@trap-chan ye gods
I'm a man. A manly man. I wear tights and roam around the forest looking for fights.
You look like a pansy.
Link?
Tight tights!
No link, it's from an old movie called Robin Hood: Men in Tights.
I like how you're named foxcat gaming despite that lol
Heh, I can appreciate that reference
We need more characters like the DOOM Eternal Doomguy, since he:
A. Has no canonical love interest;
B. Has several memorials for his late pet rabbit Daisy, including an adorable painting of the two together;
C. Collects action figures, comic books and records, has the shareware versions of the original Doom games, and
D. Considering the presence of the pun-filled cooking magazine, he can probably cook.
Also he has a mech designed by the bloke who created the Jaegers, which helps.
Don't forgot the book about Moustache tending by one Mr. Fishbach
@zain mudassir Honestly I don't watch anime, so I wouldn't know.
I love fictional pet owner cute relationships.
zain mudassir ah, the amazing one track mind trope.
Wait a minute. Is Doom Guy a Mary Sue?
I believe Markiplier to be the default human. That's why there's a character in every piece of media who looks like him.
I waited to watch this video until now exactly for your comment to exist.
@@diniiantares what ?
I guess you have a point. Mark's whole look and personality just feels like the kind of person every man wants to be.
But that kinda contradicts a few things, even if you use Mark's look and personality as the default human, that doesn't mean he HAS to be that. You can just be yourself, albeit good or bad.
Markiplier is peak human evolution
Vander from Arcane:
"It seems weird to me that fictional dudes are either in a relationship, trying to be in a relationship, or trying to get over a relationship. I mean, god don't you get tired?"
YES. YES I GET TIRED.
All the freaking time. And I'm never even in the first state, just constantly in the second and third at the same time.
I think it comes from the fact that we are expected to be the chasers. So if a character doesn't have a prospective girl in their life they are a failure of a male.
I think it comes from the fact that we are expected to be the chasers. So if a character doesn't have a prospective girl in their life they are a failure of a male.
It's especially bad when you're someone like me who prefers friendship over romance. Can a character not do something nice for another character without it being because of romance?
Think of "non heteronormative relationship BS" as "evil empires".
This is Brunhelgatron, she is a warrior woman. She beat the big bad, hooray, she is a hero! aaaand cut! Alright, this concludes the movie!
"But uh, what about the after story?"
"Would you pay 15 bux to see a sequel of her dying alone, childless, eaten by her pet cats? No children no continuation and who would want to have a family with this gnarled sinewy meat slab of a pit fighter woman who lost her eye and one of her arms in the final battle? Not to mention the 9001 kicks and punches to the womb she suffered."
Everybody looks at their shoes.
Now, if the hero were a dude, then he could lose everything but his ballsack and tinklewutz in the final battle and we could probably see someone going "at least he can still be a father! Preserve those awesome hero genes!"
"I could go the rest of my life without watching another forced romantic subplot"
Oh my god yes. Please stop forcing terrible romance into everything.
The worst part is that even if you don't, the fandom will :/
@@cloudkitt cough cough sonic and amy. I am a scarred man
Yes!
Is your profile pic the bloodborne rune??
@@neileapenninan8706 Yup
"Female mentors tend to have masculine traits."
That does explain Cooking Mama's five o' clock shadow.
*Opens FGO*
Scathach Lord of Shadows
Boudica
Da Vinci
Marie O.
Sanzang
I mean, there are counterpoints, but these are the supporting examples. . .
@@Alexeon im aware. That is part of the joke.
I don't necessarily agree with this.
Being strong is a manly trait? Like Olivia in FMA? She's strong and ruthless, set in her ways. But I always saw her as just a strong character. Saying it is inherently male to be strong will inherently cause almost all female mentors in any media manly. Why? Because most media is of action. FMA is about fighting, and military. Edward and Als mentor is also a strong woman, masculine because she fights?
Boss from MGS3 is an insanely strong woman. Is she masculine because of that?
Why is "being strong" equal to being a man? It's like the trope talk completely missed that, even though it made mention of it earlier.
@@Padrier958 and thats literally the styreotype put as manly in the first place by western media
@@Padrier958 and masculine has already been grouped into the styreotype of being badass, very strong, yada yada yknow. Its all grouped, so thats why ppl no matter the gender , identify if its a masculine or feminine trait , for the term "manly/girly" its probably because of how we sued to assume what girls and boys typically fall into tho now you should accept that its not bad if youre into these "girly" or "manly" stuff
The coughing thing reminds me of the Witcher when everybody is like „Princess Pavetta threw up, she must be pregnant“ and nobody is like „Well, we’re literally at a banquette, maybe she’s drunk“
She's a princess though. We all know that nobles do not get drunk.
@@Alresu Agreed. They drink plenty of wine if they're just that fancy, but getting drunk isn't fancy.
Fucking nobility. You can’t get dust in your eye without someone claiming that it’s a sign that your having debauched orgies with a dozen married people.
As I remember, case was not in fact that she threw up, but in her suddenly appeared magical power
@@catbatrat1760 Okay, but tolerance to alcohol varies. Some people get 6 shots of vodka and function fairly ok,while others drink 2 beers and throw up.
"fictional dudes are in a relationship, getting a relationship, or getting over a relationship. Doesn't that get tiring?"
Yes, yes it does. For the fictional and real dudes both.
For females too. It’s just annoying. Not everyone has to end up dating everyone at some point people like I get it maybe a they do end up together but it’s not a guarantee. One of my least favorite things that happen in a story is when every single character ends up with another one. Like every character has to have a girlfriend/boyfriend/non-binary relationship with someone. So annoying and predictable.
As Lythist points out, it's annoyingly convenient when every protagonist in a story that has very little to do with romance ends up romantically paired off, because it's simply not realistic. However, that's a different thing than guys _pursuing_ romantic relationships. In real life, I think that most single guys are under the impression that if they don't take initiative to pursue romance, then they'll never get any.
@@mvmlego1212 Well, that's a thing present at least in western culture even today.
Basically:
1) A dude isn't complete or successful if he doesn't have either an happy family life or is a playboy. And even in this case, the older you get the less acceptable is to be a playboy with no Kids. If you did your job and got kids and then the marriage ends, you are again allowed to be an happy single playboy.
2) The man gotta do the first move most of the time, therefore if he isn't pursuing actively a romantic interest he will never have the woman fall for him and accept him.
Some of us "dudes" don't want a relationship of any kind. Just too much headache. Call me what you want. I just have no desire to be in any relationship, of any kind, including one night stand crap. I am proof not all men want a relationship. Not all men chase women.
Seems like real life. I don't know one guy who either isnt in a relationship, looking for a relationship, or getting over a relationship.
“You just need to push the right buttons to get them to do what you want”
Me: “So it is a dating simulator”
As a matter of fact, the niceties still exist, people just stopped bothering with fake after they caught on to the fakery and the fakes got upset and became sore losers and tore down their own enterprise to spite and prevent genuine people because no one was buying it. That's what changed.
Well technically also those buttons are more, turn ons and turn off, etc, but that's other things. Likes, dislikes, oxytocin, dopamine, endorphins, pleasure, confidence, trust, risk, bravery, honesty, etc all are factors, and play a part. The little things matter. These may count as buttons. But psychology is full of these references as different than they are typically used or meant. But they still count more accurately than crowd chatter.
A B now you are sword
@@rodrigomateodelgadodelacru8154 excellent
I am so bad at any social interactions I fail dating simulators.
I personally find it weird for a male protagonist NOT to be able to cook and sew. My dad taught me these things, and drilled in my head that a proper man supports his family more than just earning money to afford things. A man should be capable in many things, not just a select few. Being a "badass" doesn't just have to mean that the protagonist/antagonist male is a skilled fighter.
I find that the men I know who crochet usually are the buff, independent types. They are secure in their manhood enough to be able to fix their own clothes or make their own beanies or whatever.
I can cook better than my mom but I cant sew at all. This whole "proper man" thing makes no sense.
There is no such thing as being a “proper man”
Yo Everybody, stop feeding the troll!! They're really not worth the effort.
Also, how are you all gonna sleep on Joseph? Dude did drag w/o batting an eye, failed a bluff check against Straitso, and only ever shed tears over his month long Italian lover Cesar!
I was never taught to sew, but I've still done it to fix things like coats and flags.
Red: "Being good at cooking is considered girly"
Brock: "Oh, so that's why none of the women I hit on seem interested."
Misty: "No, that's because you're a creep."
GET BACK IN THE SACK
- Brock
This is Brock slander and I will not stand for it
Brock slander is punishable by brocksimilation
"I'll use my trusty frying pan, as a drying pan!"
Whenever there's a male character in anime or other forms of media that falls in love with every girl they see, I call them a Brock.
Not sure what to call a female character that does that (but with men) though. Any ideas?
I need a t-shirt that says "Proof by contradiction does not work on literature". I'll wear it to all my classes that require papers.
Rebecca Gaskins I completely agree! :)
Rebecca Gaskins I dont think that is what proof by contradiction is
Rebecca Gaskins yeah me 2
It would actually need to say "Proof by counterexample does not work on literature". I think, proof by contradiction is one of the few that might actually work in literature.
Agreed. Proof by contradiction is basically the following:
Assume X is true
Show the if X is true it leads to a logical contradiction
Thus X is false
Ex:
Assume you can divide by 0
2*0=1*0 -> 2*0/0 = 1*0/0 -> 2=1, but 2 is not 1
Thus you cannot divide by zero
I've got to say, I LOVE the brief cuts of the monster battle with the "expected reactions" imposed over the fighters, gets a laugh out of me every time.
I don't, personally. It's really run its course at this point.
CrazyLikeUhFox it has run it's course, but to me it's welcomed
Dutchy the Second But really, how many of us subscribers react like that anyway? Isn't it more like a loud minority?
Dutchy the Second #neverstoppacificrimming
Me too. Every time.
In Full Metal Alchemist, their teacher was a housewife. That was cool, especially how it built into what they'd already lost.
Izumi Curtis, the most badass housewife that ever housewifed.
She is just the best, love how dismantles yakuza and military and answers the question who she is to do so with: "a housewife"
Fma 2002 or fmab
@@DioBrando-yk5up brotherhood for sure, there is first a reference from izumi, then a reference by brigg about izumi, then she lets herself get captured saying it, and then at the end of show she says to the enemy XD.
I haven't seen fma in a while, gotta rewatch it
@Ancient 6.6 I can't bring myself to call Lust a queen. She helped kill Hughes. She killed the best husband in the whole series and therefore, Mustang has good reason to pop off on her
The Virgin modern masculinity:
-"why would I read, that's nerd stuff bro"
-drinks beer
-only trait is being strong.
-chases women
- Just a farmer at best
The Chad Roman Masculinity:
- Owns a library
-Ingests wine
- Has a range of skills from running to sword fighting
- Has a wife, and a boyfriend.
- Owns a farm, is a senator, and had held a military position
Where did this "the Romans were gay" shit come from, I understand the Greek case (although it is massively overstated) but it just seems to come out of nowhere for the Romans
@@user-lv8dn8gw9z well let's see:
The fact emperor Hadrian had a boyfriend, who he literally deified after said boyfriend died
Emperor trajan often having his way with men
Sulla having Both a wife and a boyfriend in his retirement
The fact Rome had a spesific insult related to being A bottom, instead of a top.
The fact there were no laws around it until Jesus book came along is also a pretty good hint.
How is the idea that a phenomenon that occurs in nature, with multiple animals, and a thing that is all but proven to not be a choice in humans, would be a common cultural thing in a society without Christianity?
@@cherrypopscile3385 Christ is King 💪
@@user-lv8dn8gw9z It came from basically the same place as the Greek case. Some places it was more or less prevalent.
@@cherrypopscile3385 Surely, if there were gay romans, that means all of them were gay
"Fictional dudes are almost always either in a relationship, trying to be in a relationship, or trying to get over a relationship" I mean.... it's pretty expected of non-fictional dudes too
Yeah. Really is the male plight.
Speaking as someone who formerly considered herself a dude, y'all do it to yourselves lmao.
@@YaGirlJuniper I mean, I've been single for over five years lol. I was just saying it was expected, not that it was something we all were actually like.
@@YaGirlJuniper Yes, yes we do. And we then proceed to do it to each other.
Being Asexual at the very least lifts a whole lot of that burden once I can get whomever thinks my singleness is a "problem" to accept that, yes really, I don't care and, yes really, I'm totally ok with it. XD
@@YaGirlJuniper I'm sorry what? So the idea that fictional and non fictional dudes are in or are getting over a relationship is this fault?
"Cooking isn't considered manly"
Gordon Ramsay would like to have a talk with you
*_Puts two slices of bread besides red's head_*
"What are you?"
As would Sanji.
in Stall _AN IDIOT SANDWICH_ 🥪
@@jslblaze8290 Dude, he is a loser, screw him.
Correction: Gordon Ramsay would like to shout expletives at you.
Omg I lost it when you brought up the coughing. WHAT IS IT THAT AS SOON AS A CHARACTER COUGHS THEY ARE GONNA DIE??? THIS FRUSTRATES ME TO NO END
Not always. Sometimes a cough is for comedic effect in a long awkward pause, sometimes when a secret door opens all dusty-like and the character leans away and coughs while the dust settles for the big reveal.
Because mentioning every cough or sneeze inbetween scenes will break flow. This is more in books, where you really have to be careful with how information is given to the reader, as too much unnecessary mentionings can get quite annoying or simply boring to the reader (See food in Game Of Thrones).
HilariouslyScary I never knew about this, and I find it hilarious that it's a thing
In real life, much of the stuff around you doesn't mean anything, it just is. In fiction, everything that you see or read about must have some meaning to the story, hence when a character coughs, it must have meaning. It doesn't have to mean that they will die, but the cough must lead to something.
Because if there is a rifle on the wall, it will shot at third act or something.
Also it usually way to show tuberculosis.
Except it can be also hint to nursing arc in case of romantic plots.
Just a clarification from someone that spent 7 years in the army.
If someone is called something like "full metal bitch" then that is 100% meant as a compliment and not a pejorative.
It's like "tough bastard". My unit was nicknamed "the lousy mangy dogs" and we wore the name like a badge of honor.
I feel like if I ever get called a “full-metal Bitch”, it means I’ve peaked
I was gonna say that name is brutal as hell and would be more like a title than a mocking nickname
It caaaan be a pretty badass nickname/moniker, folks...but context can be VERY important in certain situations, and this? This is one of 'em. To the best of my recollection, other soldiers are contemptuous towards her character because the adversaries in the setting are just THAT hard to fight, so her being able to survive multiple skirmishes is 1) making eeeeeveryone else look bad, by comparison, and 2) actually pretty suspicious. The suspicious/weird nature of her longevity isn't an issue for the audience for long, though, as we, unlike the regular soldiers, DO get to see/understand why she's such an outlier when it comes to getting killed in combat.
@@mattpluzhnikov519 I have no idea how you get the idea that the other soldiers found her contemptuous. They were all in awe of her.
Full metal alchemist
A "manly man" is one who voluntarily ventures into the underworld and slays the dragon of chaos. That can be literal, metaphorical, or psychological. Or, if it takes place near a river delta, it can be littoral.
this ... this is poetry ... thank you
???
Jordan Peterson is pleased to see this comment
but if the character befriends the dragon of chaos, does it make them more or less manly?
@@stacyowl1658 none, that would just be... *irrational*
"tu-tum tss!" :D ...
ok sorry ;_;
Wrong, people in fiction also cough whenever a cloud of dust appears thanks to either someone blows it off a very old object or a big structure collapses
Funnily enough, I read your comment and got to thinking about it and I don't remember very many of the characters that coughed for that specific reason actually living to the end of the narrative they were in.
@@kanushiasuper1186 coughing actually kills
That could be qualified as somethign wrong.
@@butterskywalker8785 covid
I mean, if they didn't we might start wondering if they breathe at all.
the five man group part made me understand better why main characters are almost never my favorite characters in a story
protagonists are usually the most boring characters.
Side characters can be more interesting.
Side characters can definitely be more interesting. But, if anyone has read the Belgariad you would know that the manly man can be a side character if the main character is a kid.
Except Geralt of Rivia and the Master Chief. Nice characters with the job in mind only. No side shit unless it's plot related. XD
Im a fan of the lancer in most cases.
Though if we're naming off TVtropes, I think my favorite is the noble demon archetype.
Goosebumps “My best friend is invisible” is actually a great story of how you perceive characters in your mind despite there being no factual evidence that they were ever that way.
That was easily one of the best books I read as a kid. That and "The Blob That Ate Everyone".
Oh Goosebumps… I used to be terrified of the machine/doll/puppet dude in a suit and the pink poodle, though now I can’t remember their names.
On the Sam and Frodo thing: Lord of the Rings was written in the late 1950s and it's important to recognize the historic implications. In WWI, many of the upper class men went to war with with a butler/servant/etc. While they wouldn't normally be good friends in their lives outside of the war, there are many accounts of these men becoming like brothers. While some of them could have been gay, Tolkien's intention was probably to mirror the bond between these soldiers. He probably wouldn't have even considered Frodo and Sam's relationship as an actual romance, but it does appear that way to a modern audience.
Additionally, specifically for the movies, Ian McKellen did give Sean Astin some advice that basically boils down to: Don't be afraid to look a little gay.
Tolkien said that he did not want Lord of the Rings to be an analogy. In fact, he hated analogies and often argued with C.S. Lewis about them. Now saying that, I do not believe that they were ever intended to be homosexual. Even if someone wrote that nowadays, not everyone would think that: I would never have thought of it myself, even though I am a part of the modern audience.
Yes! Thank you for pointing that out. (now I don't need to). In the 50's and before, actual friendship was more than "hey, lets get a beer" but more as support like an actual friend. Today, it's considered weird....I don't know why
King Keegster I think you miss interpreted what I was talking about (I was unclear, sorry!). I didn't mean to imply it was an analogy to WWI. The series in no way directly mirrors WWI, but that doesn't mean he didn't base Sam and Frodo's relationship on the soldiers. Tolkien used a lot resources as inspiration for certain aspects of LotR, and that wasn't limited to creatures and places.
Rereading my comment, my phrasing did imply it being an analogy, but I wasn't thinking about it like that. Sorry for being unclear!
+ImagineHodgepodge Oh, okay. Yeah, I can agree with that.
I honestly don't know tho could seriously interpret Sam and Frodo relationship as a romance. Being good buddies and caring for each other doesn't mean that they have a romance
I feel like the women in Princess Mononoke actually do a fantastic job of circumventing the whole "woman in charge must be manlier than the manly men" thing. Lady Eboshi is pretty feminine, being able to handle herself in a fight aside, she still isn't directly super masculine or challenged by her male underlings. Just thought it'd be an interesting thing to point out. However come to think of it it's not technically a Western produced/written film but still.
She is definitely a great character, and a good example of a Woman in Charge, but it's still interesting to me that she's not actually in power over the protagonist. She leads over her villaige, and our protagonist certainly has no power over her, but she isn't directly his superior.
The only two examples I can think of that break this trope are The Ancient One in Doctor Strange and Haldo/Leia in the new Star Wars movies. In the former, she's the straight up mentor that is show to have more power and knowlege than Strange in every way. In the latter, both women lead the armies well and the only point where they're seen as untrustworthy is when Po is being suspicous because of his fragile ego. Still, for the most part they're seen as worthy leaders and seem to slide into the typically male role pretty well.
Studio Ghibli is the exception to all stereotypes and tropes. Miyazaki-sensei himself was a big proponent of girls/women being able to do amazing thing just by being themselves. Heck, he applied this to all of his characters, but the Ghibli Woman is her own special category. :D
@@chaoticgood12 Not really. There's a subpart to this trope that if the woman is older, she can get away with being in charge strictly due to seniority, as she's gotten around "in a man's world" (and she will need to explain that at some point). Being older will also eliminate any sexual tension. Also, she'll generally act male or genderless - the fact she's a woman won't matter much. M fits all parts of this - she acts tough as nails, her gender is mostly non-important, and she's older, so Bond is not going after a sexagenarian.
Miyazaki is good at that. His characters are beautifully developed.
@@SaintStryfeArgentEngraving this would also include Tsunade from Naruto.
I had a manly man(tm) in a game of Pathfinder once.
A Barbarian so lost in the manly trope that he wielded a magic mug in each hand that had infinite alcohol in them. As per his Drunken Rager archetype he got buffs for being shitfaced. He could use these mugs like maces in combat. So he never had a reason to put them down, and he never did. Real dudebro personality. Lumberjack's grit and Vikings stoicism, topped off with a frat boy's energy and a convict's patience.
I wanted to see where I could take him as a character. Efficient as he was in combat, even while concerningly sloshed, I wasn't blind to how one-note he was. At level seven I took the leadership feat. Who should pop up in a tavern other than his own nerdy wizard son. The exact opposite of his father in every way. Pale, weak, underspoken, studious, knowledgable, could read, so on and so forth.
I liked the dynamic between father and son. Throughout the adventure they changed each other. Manly man dad pushed his son, perhaps too hard, and often on purpose. His son began pushing back. Family means family, no matter what. By the end of the game manly man dad quit drinking and even grew more uh... personable. Meek son stayed a nerd, but learned to stand up for himself and be assertive, a simple act that made his father endlessly proud. In the end the greatest obstacle was for the Barb to accept his son for the nerd he was. A challenge made infinitely easier when he learned fireball and began nuking shit.
chicken run?
Ah, wonderful story
*wipes away tears*
It's beautiful...
Respect+++
Why can’t this be a three hour movie or a TV series?
For an example of what happens when a male hero makes a mistake, look no further than Star-Lord punching Thanos in Infinity War. I don't think his rep will ever recover.
My biggest gripe is not that he did it, but that nobody bothered to stop him, nebula wasn't preoccupied and could have stopped him.
I'm not mad at her either though, I'm simply mad at the writing leading up to that moment.
Star Lords flaws include immaturity and impulsiveness, and he's not the sharpest knife in the spoon drawer.
So I'm not sure this applies as just a mistake, but I'm open to debate
That's not what Red meant. She was talking about simple human error that is unrelated to a person's flaws of character. With Moana, she makes a mistake by simply misjudging whether or not she could make it past in time, and this is not really explained by any character flaw she is presented to have. She just screws up for no other reason than the plot being that way and has to deal with the consequences, albeit she gets a retry and succeeds.
In contrast, Starlord is a known hothead, and he got riled up enough at Thanos to punch him, which made the whole team's efforts fall through. He's not good at keeping his emotions in check, even when literally half the universe hinges on him not freaking out.
Red compared simple human error to coughing. In reality, it's commonplace, while in fiction, it pretty much only happens when there's something else important that makes the cough or the human error relevant or necessary.
That was a character defined bad decisions, not what shes talking about
@@thedontpanic i mean, you can argue the moana example could be her positive traits manifesting negatively
she's shown to be pretty stubborn and corageous throughout the movie, and has always succeeded up untill that point. maybe her misjudging is a byproduct of her confidence, just not explicitly stated as such
It might fall under the "detectives can be wrong x amount of times" trope, but I really like the bit in Sherlock Holmes: A Game of Shadows where he goes through an extensive process to stop what he think was Moriarty's plan, and is jut flat-out wrong. Not only was he wrong, he was wrong in the exact way that Moriarty expected him to be wrong.
Yes that was a glorious scene.
Spoilers!!!
Wouldn't that fall under "getting tricked", then?
@@Shifterwizard -- Yes, but I think it's still in the category of mistakes that male heroes aren't "allowed" to make. I think the point that Red was trying to get at was that male heroes are expected to be and portrayed as perfectly _competent_. Consequently, for a male hero whose primary job is to do detective work, getting fooled is a form of incompetence, and thus a forbidden mistake.
But that counts less as being wrong and more as being defeated, its common to not win every fight to give more weight to the stakes of the conflict, but not to be wrong just because. If is was expected by Moriarty, it isn't "being wrong" it is being outwitted
6:38
"Uh can we date?"
"Not until you aswer me these questions three!"
Best part
Yes
What's manlier than TWO MEN?!
THREE MEN
AMEN!
Oh wait, that didn't work...
5 men in a bar talking about football, beer, and emotions that society says we don't have.(like depression)
@Timtim Gaming Why not Sea Men?
TWO ALEX LOUIE ARMSTRONGS
The superior non-toxic manly man is Aragorn. Kicks ass, loves poetry, strong leader, good to his friends and family. S tier role model.
Issue: Would be the most generic and boring main character ever.
Bro could baisclt be every red ranger ever
@bjjkickboxing7876 In the books, I'll give you that. I found movie Aragon's self-doubt both interesting and relatable.
@@daviddaugherty2816 yeah that happens a lot in adaptations. Directors and script writers reslise mid adaptations that those characters are one dimentional and uninteresting, and add a little spice to make it betta
I was under the impression that Moana's "mistake" was based around her character flaw of pride. The entire movie she is telling Maui that the ocean chose her and that returning the heart is her destiny. And while this attitude has helped her in the past, it leads to over-confidence at a crucial moment. That's why the song that happens afterwards is about regaining her self-confidence, because her pride was shattered.
In the true story of Maui Maui dies. Because he fails to fulfill his final test which is to gain and give humankind immortality he passed a multitude of tests but failed this last one why?because of a birds tweet......
SHOW ME YA MOOVES
Or her character flaw of humility? Assuming that she was chosen to fascilitate Maui in his heroism, then came the musical number where she goes oh actually maybe I can put the heart back myself. I am clever and persistent and don't give up in the face of hardship, my ancestors are strong and awesome and support me.
I think it's also worth noticing that Maui flat out makes a mistake too. Taking the heart of Tefiti has the exact opposite outcome of the one he intended. But what does Maui do when he's faced with the fact that he's a screw-up? He hides in a cave. What does Moana do when she realizes she's a screw-up? She picks herself back up and tries something else. In the moment of truth, she didn't quit, she kept moving forward.
Well, she did quit. That was the whole point of the musical number, to help her pick herself back up. Maui didn't have someone to tell him he could fix the problem, so he sulked in a cave. But Moana had her grandmother and the whole musical number. And that is what Moana did for Maui, she got him to try again.
When you realize Red's avatar has more muscles than Blue's... STEREOTYPE BROKEN!
RitsarStudios maybe shes actually buff in real life, she mentions doing dem pushups
Fucking *Nice*
i was thinking pokemon
i was like
what the fuck
No it is actually just another stereotype
Please chill on gender topics.
"bad at ... understanding other girls."
*shows Naked Snake and The Boss standing in a field, about to duel to the death*
I'm wounded, Red. *Wounded*
Gotta say, I don't think it's Snake's fault for not understanding a Kojima plotline
@Manek Iridius I feel that most people get confused on the plot due to background elements and dialogue that are either ignored or go unnoticed by the player, and how the games don't follow a linear timeline. 1 is in the middle, 2 is after 1, 3 is the first, 4 is the last, and 5 is after 3, with minor games such as peace walker, portable ops, and ground zeroes also being plot relevant. Not complex, just either vague or boringly expository.
not as wounded as The Boss is about to be
@@8-bitsarda747
STOP!!
@@greywalker505 no
I think my favourite exception to this one would be Aang from the Avatar: the Last Air Bender cartoon, he's super empathetic, is almost never fighting with brute force, and has a primarily evasion based move set, which is super uncommon in main heroes.
Yet another reason that show is the best
Avatar is one of those shows that just somehow does everything right.
I was thinking the same thing. This also goes for Zuko and Sokka. Neither fill the classic "manly man" stereotype. Sokka is a fighter, but he primarily fills the role of the goofball/nerd (given that he is the idea guy). And Zuko is more of the brooding rogue.
If anything, the one in the Gaang that fits that trope the most would be Toph, since she is rather loud, brutish, sometimes gross and has a habit of boasting and taunting her enemies.
I don't mind tropes as long as they're well written. A stereotypical manly man can still be interesting, if not on their own, but on the environment and other characters.
Take a super muscle bound guy being a protagonist, total stereotype, bad cook, lustful, oafish, and stupid. Pretty two dimensional character.
But put this character in an environment that requires not physical strength, but mental strength. Giving him challenges he can't easily overcome with his abilities forcing him to lean on the other characters in order to help him overcome them.
A good writer can make even the flattest of characters interesting.
But that's just my opinion :P
Maybe Later Completely agree. It's not about the character; it's about the opposition. Take Superman, for instance--he's as stereotypically masculine as it gets. In any other situation, he'd be a dull character, but Lex Luthor serves as his foil because he's smart, someone who Superman knows he can't just beat up with his fists.
Any character can be intriguing with well-written opposition. It's a shame we don't see more creativity in the template.
My favourite example of what you described is the protagonist of Alfred Bester's sci-fi novel Tiger! Tiger! It's amazing.
I like basically manly men characters. Take Takamura from Hajime No Ippo. He's pretty much a manly man but he's so well executed that no one notices. And yes he fulfils all these roles and solves his problems with his strength.
Maybe Later YES thank you tropes exist for a reason and when well executed it can be very interesting
Maybe Later I think she mentioned this at the start of the series. Tropes aren't bad or good; they just are.
"Interacting with girls"
* *Picture of Naked Snake facing down The Boss* *
You cut deep. DEEP.
Normal Person: Is wrong... whoops
Protagonist: Has been decieved by a dark magician in the ancient army of the underworld through artificial delusions and general trickery...
Task: Answer a math problem
That's Don Quixote in a nutshell.
SirMan McDude you see you take the x which equals 5.3 then you proceed to multiply that by 526352.322222 then you.... five hours later, and you end up with the answer of 3.
So Mr.math teacher what was the true answer and yes I remembered to show my work.
@@CH-nn1nf I hope you have a proper case then. I hear your work has a crack team of lawyers and is friends with every judge in town.
Chris Hansen lol I didn’t notice my typo! I need to learn to type slower, and to double check for the main reason my fat thumbs are get in the way!
@@CH-nn1nf lol it's cool though and I thought the sentence "I remembered to sue my work." Was pretty funny.
People don’t think Frodo is a badass?
He resisted the one ring long enough to get it to mount doom
That requires a ridiculous amount of willpower
Also he is definitely not that physically promint, which makes all he is done even more badass.
Ehh it's kinda complicated, being a badass and being a strong character aren't always identical, but there is a lot of overlap, plenty of characters are "strong" without ever having to fight anyone because their strength is in a way that's not physically fighting, like they're very brave and strong-willed or they're great at diplomacy and keeping people on their side or they're just really smart and make a habit of outwitting people, the badass archetype is much more... punching and shooting centric
@@orangeinkius7257 nah Frodo is still a badass
He’s not physically imposing he’s one other smallest races in his world but resisting the one ring alone is insanely impressive
@@thisstatementisfalsenothin5312 I feel like you're equating badass with "cool character who I like", a badass is someone who's fluent in violence not just any character that's cool or impressive in Any way imaginable, theres just a lot of overlap beacuse physical violence takes up like 85% of all fiction ever
@@orangeinkius7257 no you’re just too limited in your thinking of what a badass is
You don’t have to be good at hurting things to be a badass most badass stories are stories of incredible will power
Look at Hugh Glass he was mauled by a bear and left for dead but he dragged himself dozens of miles to survive that’s not just violence it’s will power
Same with say Batman going out and fighting after having several bones, including his spine broken that’s not just violence it’s willpower
John wick fighting with 3 movies worth of injuries
The most badass moments come from displays of sheer will not just violence
Homelander from the boys is violent but you wouldn’t argue he’s a badass
Frodo is weak but he’s still a badass because he could resist the one ring which is so tempting that literally anyone would fail to resist it but he got it to mount doom
Another example of a character who’s not very physically strong but is still a stone cold badass is Gus from breaking bad
They were being shot at by snipers and Gus walked out in plain view of them and just stared them down
At 13:16:
*Red:* “She miscalculated”
*Azula:* “No, *YOU* miscalculated! You should have feared me more!”
Edit April 2022: Wow! Thanks for the 1,000+ likes!
*Captain* : " *I* get that reference"
I don't understand how Moana's mistake isn't Hubris? Maui is her senior and teacher in the art of sailing, and he told her that she couldn't make it, but she ignored him and tried anyway despite not being able to see or know anything he didn't see or know. Thinking you Know Better is the very essence of Hubris.
@@TerryBradstreet the hubris was not changing her mind when Maui said it was a bad idea, but the miscalculation was not exactly hubris
Elijah Colie Luke Skywalker miscalculated that he could beat Vader and save his friends, and his hubris was ignoring Yoda telling him he wasn’t ready. He lost his fucking hand.
*Doc Ock*: She couldn't have miscalculated. It was working, wasn't it?
As a general rule of thumb, if two male characters are good friends and neither or one of them have lovers/spouses, people are going to assume that they're in love with each other, taking every little small attention they give each other as signs of attraction instead of as, you know, actual friendship. It's odd to consider that female characters are awarded a lot more freedom in that regards when they are close to female friends. If two male characters have small cares for each other, people jump to conclusions a lot easier than when it's two female characters. It's a weird trend that's fun to look at.
My good sir, have you ever heard of *drumroll* femslash?
hi it's tweety, No I hadn't. However, after summary research, I can say that the existence of this kind of fan fiction reinforces my earlier point. Think about it, you had slash fan fiction, where two fictionnal characters of the same gender were portrayed in a romantic relationship despite the canonical lack thereof, but since everyone just wrote it about male character, they had to create a sub-genre of that to portray those kinds of things about female characters, and one that is rather more niche. It's really weird! Not the genre, the fact that they had to create a sub-genre...
P Ciprian, Of course it depends on the said attentions. But you know, the Internet sees everything in fiction as potential romance these days which can be funny, or terrifying, depending on your perspective.
P Ciprian, I'm not sure why that is relevant, but, if you say so...
P Ciprian, Okay, but what side is this?
Why is this a video about manly men but there’s not a single clip of Jojo bizarre adventure
Jojo is actually full of super effeminate men if you go past part... 3 i think. Well the end of part 3 had effeminate men too.
The Great Me-sama what dio is not an effeminate man and even after part 3 there are some manly dudes araki just toned it down but I mean there’s is still a lot manliness in jojo I’m just surprised there wasn’t a single reference to it not even a piller men clip
@@kasidon8 There is a ton of manliness but if you look at the art... Kinda effimnate af.
vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/jjba/images/c/c5/JosukeProfile.png/revision/latest?cb=20190117181938
You were expecting a clip of Jojo... but it was me, DIO!
4ndr3c3s4r1n0 is that a JOJO REFERENCE
Oh my goodness yes. Fanbases go crazy when characters make mistakes. Every character has to be perfect! No, they don't, and their flaws are what make them beautiful.
You're still talking about written 'character trait' flaws, X person wasn't able to do Z because they were overconfident or X person is forced to do Z because they physically/mentally/morally can't choose otherwise and not they just fucked up because it was a 50/50 shot anyway.
We don't stub our toes because we are pridefilled and don't take into regard safety or something, you stub your toe because it just happens.
Fanbases go crazy when characters screw up for no reason, not because they're not perfect, they want everything to have meaning to the characterization of the protagonists.
Not necessarily beautiful, but I get the point. Everyone makes mistakes but the important thing is do more good things than bad things. And whetever someone success or fails, it can make a good, relatable story when handled well.
I think it's more like a lot of these characters just straight up making a mistake just for plot obligation since a lot of characters that made this pitfall usually has never been established to make human errors before. So it is key that before the all important moment where they make an error that they have been established to make mistakes before. I think Yoichi Isagi from Blue Lock is a great example of how to do it right, when he makes mistakes he usually don't have all the information necessary which led him to miscalculate or he just straight up not good enough to do what he set out to do because it wasn't part of his skill set. He makes human errors regularly which makes it feel natural that he can lose because of human error. In the end if you want to use a plot device with good results, it has to be build up either subtly, obviously, or thematically.
@@robbieaulia6462 didnt expect blue lock in this comment section, pleasant surprise
I think it depends on what the mistake is and if it was out of character. If a character that was set up to be smart makes a mistake or falls for a trap that the audience could see miles away, it becomes frustrating.
I watch flamboyant manly men doing manly things while fighting other flamboyant manly men, who are also doing manly things.... While posing.
Sadly, the manly part of that was removed in part 5.
Whom then summon spiritual manly men to beat up some other manly man’s spiritual manly man.
ToxicAndSalty
What was it, The Ginyu Force?
Anime called JoJo reference
BlazingMagpie
I know but it also sounds a lot like the Ginyu Force! I mean, fighting and posing is kind of their thing too.
I'm kinda surprised you didn't mention Izumi Curtis, especially considering you used Olivier Mira Armstrong.
Izumi is the mentor of the MCs, terrifies them, and is shown to be strong both in FMA's world's power system and in traditional physical abilities (and emotionally strong too, but that's another subject).
But she also announces herself as a housewife, cares for Ed & Al like her own sons, is deeply characterized by her actions in the past as a grieving mother, and is in basically permanent honey-moon mode with her husband; an equally badass bear of a man.
One of my favorite lines from her besides her proud declarations of being a housewife, is when she’s complimenting Alex Armstrong on his bravery saying, “You’re a fine man. Then again, I’ve already got a man a million times finer then you.” She’s in the middle of a war zone, but she takes a moment to talk about how much she loves her husband. Then proceeds to yeet Sloth through the air so her husband can hit a home run.
Relationship goals.
plus the fact that ed and al got a head-cannon that Izumi and her husband(whose name I almost always forget) fell in love when Izumi was rushing not to arrive late to where she was going, and accidentally dropped her bear and he helped her with it, I always laugh at that scene
Best moment was she she beat the MC’s asses then proceeded to hug them.
@@Levsa399 just more evidence as to why Fullmetal Alchemist; Brotherhood is great.
3:34 It's funny that we keep degrading women in combat to being archers, because in truth archery takes a lot of upper body strength. It's borne from this mentality that "women are weaker, so they should be archers" when in truth that's a very physically demanding form of combat. Especially in a medieval or fantasy setting where they don't have compound bows.
I don’t think it demeans women per say, as being racist physically weaker isn’t really a bad thing (mainly on average women are physically weaker weaker then men in terms of upper body strength and overall endurance, though they make up for it in other areas which I can’t name on top of my head), but a simple cultural misunderstanding of how medieval weaponary works
It's like an idea that women have to be protected so they stay behind the front line because apparently they can't take a hit, which y'know is not true even remotely. When it comes to literal material strength men and women are both made of the same flesh.
Anyone of decent physical strength can wear mail and swing an axe, but marching for very long times would be a lot easier if you had- I don't know- stronger lower body strength for childbearing.
Well hasn't someone seen shadiversity?
Well hasn't someone seen shadiversity?
"I know my fair share of totally lovable weedy nerds that never really saw the point in beefing up"
*blue has been summoned*
8:13
"The lancer, big guy, smart guy, and *chick* can then be any gender"
Amazing, let's go
That's originally what the role was called, though it has recently been renamed to the "Heart" Go watch the five man band episode, very good
Danielle
Tv Tropes still uses chick I believe
@@j2dragon109 It depends on the group. As they straight up use Red's artwork it's mainly the chick, but the role of the heart (keeping the group together) is often interchangeable with chick.
@@artofthepossible7329 probably because it is called a Harem if the roles are reversed (at least in Anime which is like...hmmm 5% of culture ?)
it actualy works, frequently if the guy is the "chick" they are simply not particularly manly, still can be technically straight, but they generally will be characterized by non manly characteristics.
I have to disagree with you on Frodo when you said Frodo is not iron-willed (4:55). Gandalf doesn't dare touch the One. Boromir was driven to attack Frodo without carrying it after brief exposure. The mere presence of the One corrupts the Council of Elrond. Frodo saw the Witch King and held off the stab wound from the Morgul blade and still carried the One all the way to the Cracks of Doom without breaking until the very end. Frodo's willpower is his only form of traditional manly-man strength, but it's off the chart.
Quick note on that. The ring enhances the power of the wielder, the morning powerful they are the more dangerous the ring is to them. Hobbits on what would basically be the middle Earth power scale are pretty much at the very bottom as far as intelligent beings go and as such the power of the ring and it's influence are vastly stifled. Gandalf comments that if he were to take the ring he would likely use it in attempt to do a great amount of good but in doing so would inadvertently fall under the rings influence and his actions would turn against middle Earth and be quite disastrous. It is also one of the many reasons the eagles do not get involved as they are beings of immense power being what are effectively angels for the god Manwë and with the ring could likely be a greater threat than Sauron. Frodo does have tremendous will power and his bravery is up there with the rest of the fellowship, but he only succeeds with tremendous aid and because he is a Hobbit.
@@iPhoneeditor Not necessarily, the ring doesn't have a scaling power ratio, it is just that hobbits have a natural tolerance- or perhaps lack of corruptibility, that wizards and eagles (both of which are agents of Manwe, not just eagles) do not posses.
The reason for his ability to carry the ring was a result of him being a hobbit, not a personality trait. In that part I agree
PS: The eagles of Manwe with the ring would not be very much of a threat, similar to how Tom Bombadil wouldn't be much of a threat with it. They are more elemental than present. Nor are the eagles very powerful.
Even at their height it took their king all of his strength to free Mandos from chains on the top of a mountain and bring him down. (Either to the Sindar or to Gondolin, I do not recall.)
Already stated that the stronger you are, the greater the rings power to corrupt you. Because power corrupts and shit. Hobbits are made to carry the ring because they are so weak.
In other words he would be a great green lantern unless he has ring PTSD
It's not really a question of willpower, though it also plays a part, but the main reason hobbits make good ringbearers is because hobbits have absolutely no ambition to do anything remotely important. The ring promises you power to achieve your wildest dreams, but hobbits don't want power or money, they only want enough to live a comfortable life and pretty much nothing else. For instance, when Sam briefly carries the ring, it tries to convince him that it can make him the greatest gardener in the world, which Sam thought was ridiculous. This is why someone like Boromir was so easily affected, because at the time he had so much to lose and so much responsibility. Boromir was easily swayed because he was the greatest among them and had the most ambitious goals (maybe except for Gandalf, but he's a special case). Willpower plays a part, but ambition is the deciding factor.
“Nor am I straight.”
Oh so _THATS_ why everyone in your art is pretty.
edit: guys just because she's ace doesn't mean that she can't appreciate pretty people. i don't want to fuck a sunset, but i find them gorgeous. same rule applies.
edit 2: holy fuck guys please
She's said she's asexual
@@rdsasuke1 Wow... that is just stunningly shitty. Congrats, you just pissed on the entire asexual community.
@@rdsasuke1 It most likely doesn't
@@rdsasuke1 probably not
@@anne-zh2kd I'm not ace, but Imma hop on that being peeved train-
Reason why straight white male is the norm is that most of the writers that get published (especially in olden days) are/were white straight males. If I would write a novel I would make the protagonist like me (as a default, I would change it if the plot demands it), and since pretty much all my friends are white males, the supporting cast would also be such.
I would argue that if a black woman starts to write a novel, her protagonist won't be default white male. And since minorities have started to get published more, we might see a culture sift in the near future.
One thing I noticed is that female authors tend to right both male and female protagonists, but male authors more rarely have female protagonists.
Ya I noticed that as a kid when playing a game where you make the character. My friend started making a character that wasn't like mine. Then it hit me.
I think woman tend to be more confident in writing multiple genders
And i think men tend to try to avoid it because they feel like they are better equipped to write a male character
I think it fits into the cultural shift that portrays girls as enigmatic and the stereotype that man don’t or can’t understand girls as described in the video
@@dj_koen1265 I fully agree, I actually do feel inadequate to write a female character in most situations, likely because of that cultural shift, I just worry I might get something wrong, or offend someone, I don't know.
It's kinda obvious that authors prefer to write character similar to themselves or where they live, it's part of the "write what you know" mindset but somehow people don't realize this and complain all the time. It's like asking why anime shounen MCs are asian boys and shoujo MCs are asian girls
'Men are typically bad at childrearing' Picture of Goku.
Me: ... Accurate.
To be fair to Goku, he's bad at everthing else that doesn't involve punching people or preparing to punch people too
Statistics for single motherhood vs single fatherhood pretty reliably show the opposite actually. Women alone seem to be abysmal at it.
child...rearing...
*ring, ring* Yes, FBI?
Laurie
She's probably talking about the trope in fiction and not the ones irl. If not then you're right, and she's contributing to a stereotype.
@@UnfamiliarIntimacy Most fictional tropes are based on ones in real life that have been exaggerated for comedic purposes and then de-exaggerated for the purposes of writing and deconstruction. The 'men aren't good at childrearing' thing is half true, in that of a married couple the wife is better at minding and looking after the child, but it's very wrong in that children who are raised without a father are very likely to do very badly in life.
Haha. The "woman = archer because less manly weapon"" trope is funny because, in reality, using a bow takes way more physical strength than using a sword. A sword is a sharp metal bar that weighs a few pounds, and if you hit unarmored people with it, they get sliced open. A bow requires exerting a force equal to roughly half your body weight with each arm, all while doing the non-trivial task of aiming a projectile.
It goes back to the ancient Greeks. Women are, for some reason, able to hold the archer stance better than men, so the Greeks used skilled female archers as a police force, or as hunters, while the men were out at war.
This is true. I have tried to shoot a bow as a kid. It was way harder than swinging my plastic lightsaber. Heck, I couldn't even fully pull it back without help. My sister could though...
The sword may be easier for a woman to handle, but a male opponent at close range is not. Men are stronger so they can: break their guards more easily, grapple them more effectively, have more stamina for longer fights, and can take any hits given to them far better than women can. In short placing a woman mono e mono with a guy at close range puts her at a severe disadvantage.
Anything that puts distance between the women and men evens the odds. Though a man can use higher powered bows, arrows are arrows. If it hits it hurts with only a marginal difference in effectiveness.
A better weapon set for a woman is a spear or other polearms. Spears can be fairly light, and create good distance between the woman and man. The sharp point and natural lever minimizes the amount of force required to do damage.
For a longer range option a sling or crossbow seems better for woman. A sling is more dependent on the weight of the projectile being swung rather than the strength of the operator. Crossbows, once loaded can be aimed with ease. the more powerful crossbows even have mechanical devices to assist in loading.
Bow? Unmanly? Look at Archer!Shirou, he's specified for being great with a bow.
I always thought the trope was more; "Ranged weapons are less manly than melee weapons because X".
Believe it or not the Frodo-Sam thing was how straight relationships were perceived back then and the standards just changed so people see them as gay
Corvo@AZ You know gay people exist right?
Anyone who's dumb enough to think Sam is gay wasn't paying attention to at any point in the movies/books mentioning Sam's already existing relationship.
EvilUnicornLord Bi and polyamorous people exist
DeathnoteBB And Sam is neither.
@B T not only that he was writing of relationships born of trial and pain. you become very close with someone when you rely on them to keep you alive.
Just realized that "in a relationship, trying to be in a relationship, or getting over a relationship" basically describes my entire existence during highschool
And yes, it was extremely tiring!!
Yeah, fairly standard for dudes even into their early 20's, honestly...
I'm a woman and I also might be some form of aro-ace and I simply do not understand a constant need to be in a relationship
As a guy who's been romantically alone since high school: wanna trade?
@@siriuslywastaken Same here and I'm a guy! I don't understand this never-ending desire to be in a relationship with someone either...
This describes my entire existence since I was about 13 and hit puberty and has no sign of stopping now that I’m 33.
And yes, it is exhausting. If I could shut off the “serial monogomy” part of my brain I would. But just as ace people can’t magically make themselves allo, us allos can’t make ourselves ace
I think the reason why characters in stories rarely make simple mistakes, is because human error is generally not interesting to read about and does not promote character growth. If a character makes a mistake because of a character flaw such as fear or hubris, that mistake can be used to develop their character to be braver or wiser. The only time human error can be used to drive the plot along is if the character's mistake results in major consequences that force the character onto a completely new track. For example, the character oversleeps and as a consequence misses their boat. This forces the character to take an alternative route to their destination which opens up the possibility of meeting new characters or getting embroiled in new adventures along the road.
But what about humorous mishaps? I'm looking at you Avatar! Sometimes characters muck things up by complete accident or clumsiness and roll with it. When done right it's very interesting, adding a lot of variety and vitality to what otherwise can easily become dull routine in fiction (chase scenes, fight scenes, stealth/ambush, falling/climbing...how many turn out in the same way with the action heroes just beating people up?)
26CLT, humorous mishaps are certainly a fictional mainstay, but they tend to have very little impact on the overall story. The mishap is used for a bit of comedy and then is forgotten for the rest of the story. Often the mishap occurs to the comic relief character, rather than the hero, unless the hero is set out to be socially awkward or is interacting with his love interest.
Avatar was an amazing show that put some serious effort into subverting tropes and creating complex characters.
I would figure that human error makes for a more relatable character though no? I mean, I understand why people don't write their characters going to the bathroom or most other biological processes that can't be written to include other characters, but writing in instances of human error is always something I appreciate because it notes that the author remembers that their characters are human too (in instances where they are actually human of course).
I have never seen a book where a character forgetting something, or oversleeping, or tripping, or whatever, is treated as serious and important and it doesn't come across as really forced. The closest I've seen is a character who died after falling down a flight of stairs, but he was running down the stairs with a broken leg while crying. People don't read books to get a dose of the life they already lead down to the annoying problems with no real solution.
Yes Nick Johnson your last sentence is the most important part. People don't read stories to get a dose of life, because life overall is boring. It's mundane. Nobody wants to read characters making those kinds of mistakes because the only thing they succeed in is frustrating the reader.
One additional trope that's popped up is the idea of the "badass father". This is someone who is unquestionably good at child-rearing, who takes good care of their children, and who may be additionally skilled in homemaking or other traditionally-unmanly skills, but still kicks all kinds of ass (God help the poor villain who hurts their kids).
How is a father who protects his kids and is capable of doing thing a bad thing expect maybe for sociopaths or toxic misandrists? (which leads to the question what of those are you?)
It was mentioned as a bad thing?
@@candide1065
"Proof by contradiction doesn't work on literature" I'm stealing that
only that's not what "proof by contradiction" even means in the first place. "proof by contradiction" isn't when you bring a counter-example, it's when you assume something to be right, prove that it leads to a logical contradiction, and therefore prove that it's actually wrong
If we are being picky, then counter examples do not work in mathematics either, unless one uses universal quantifiers in the first place.
@@slkjvlkfsvnlsdfhgdght5447 Assumption: all male characters are bad at girly things.
- if all male characters are bad at girly things, then there are no male characters that are good at girly things.
- [insert name of counterexample] is a male character who is good at a girly thing
Therefore, not all male characters are bad at girly things.
Basically, tropes aren’t all encompassing. There can be exceptions. Just because there’s a few exceptions to the “manly men are bad at girly things” trope doesn’t mean the trope doesn’t exist. Summary: tropes == common but not necessarily without exception.
@@jackychen7769 look, i undesrtood what she meant, it's just that she used the wrong term.
"proof by contradiction" is something completely different form "proof by counter-example"
An interesting case of a male character having a female boss can be seen in Alucard of Hellsing: Ultimate. The dynamic between the two is interesting in that despite Alucard being subordinate, it sometimes seems like he's trying to mentor her into being a more competent leader.
Well shes liek 20 and he is Dracula
Balalaika from black lagoon is also an example of a likable female boss character
well he was a chick in the fourties so i don't know if you can say that he's an example of a man with a female boss
That is because she is not his boss, she owns that mofo.
Is the female mentor from Grisaia no Meikyuu anime count? I mean it's a harem show based on an eroge, so it's obvious to have as many female characters involved in the MC life.
Ummm Brock?!??! Greatest Badass of all time, and can sew, cook, and clean.
Supporting character, not protagonist
Still can't get a girl though...
Roman Ceasar47 “Greatest badass of all time?” Didn’t he hit on literally every single attractive female he met, only to be immediately KO’d, paralyzed, or dragged away by the ear? I’m pretty sure Brock was at least 50% “comedic sidekick”.
What everyone else said and also I'm 70% sure Brock wasn't even white so he doesn't even fit the template
And raised like 20 of his siblings
5:02 Yeah, Frodo isn't uber-masculine, but Samwise Gamgee is manly enough to pick up Frodo's slack.
This comment brought to you by Gamgee Gang.
I expected way more comments about Samwise being the actual hero of the story.
@@alentjanestetico3014 there two parts of a whole, no one being could complete the journey alone, both of their traits complete the hero needed. They're both the hero
I like frodo do others do not
But Sam doesn't fit the manly man profile either; he's a gardener, he's a good domestic-type cook, and only strong in comparison to the other three hobbits. Neither Sam nor Frodo fit the stereotype. (btw this ain't criticism; they're my two favourite characters).
Sam is the hero.
Brotherly love should be portrayed in media more, it’s not gay to love your homies bros.
Frodo is a Hobbit. He's about a strong and physically intimidating as a child. He's not your standard hero because he's more of a tortured soul that we empathize with instead of wanting to be him.
The thing about "default" and "modifiers" is an excellent point. This is also why media about non-default identities has an unfortunate tendency to either feel forced or be completely about those modifier identities in lieu of actual plot. Simone de Beauvoir explores this explicitly in The Second Sex
Also that seems to be a growing trend nowadays in the film industry, just throwing modifiers onto charaters to make up for their shallow writing. Don't get me wrong, it's great to see diversity of all kinds in media. But its just the icing on the cake, it dosnt matter what icing it is, there's still got to be a cake under it otherwise it's just a blob of icing
The real average is a middle-aged, gender-fluid, Han Chinese person.
Bro why you reveal this fact
Id like more fiction with that as the protag
Im sorta getting sick of late teens to early 20s guys
Gimme a grumpy old middle age person
@@charlx8979 "I'm sorta getting sick of late teens to early 20s guys"
As far as I've read, that's the main target group in todays media, so ...
With 1 testicle and breast, and named Mohammad Li
@@viktorbagic5516 i get that, doesnt make it less boring to always have the exact same generic protagonist
look at the generic harem anime protagonist trope, all exactly the same and a lot of the time with the exact same voice actors
Just once I'd like to see the guy hero that just spent a day having the stuffing beaten out of him, with wounds still bleeding through the bandages tell the beguiling damsel to bug off and let him sleep in peace. Some times healing is more important than rocking anyone's world.
Bruh that's... hm.. gimme a sec.
Ajin kinda has that, where it's s cycle of training, practice, fail, recover (really fast), train, practice, fail etc.
God i can't really think of too many examples. There was that one episode of samuri Jack in the new season where he was wounded. Idk. Most healing is between scenes. You could maybe consider Watson in the first movie. He had to heal a bit.
Forest Gump?
No, he doesn't fit the trope of manly man. He's more like, a force if nature, just goes with the flow. :)
Indiana Jones.
John Wick tried to do that, but he couldn't get a damn moment of peace lol
Goku. At least the DBZ abridged version, lol.
Invincible?
WELL KNOWN UNIVERSAL FACT:
You can do nothing without offending someone, somewhere.
FUCKING ASSHOLE, WHAT ABOUT THE ALIENS WITHOUT BIG ENOUGH BRAINS, YOU'RE DISCRIMINATING BY NOT ACKNOWLEDGING THEIR EXISTENCE
Doesn't mean jackshit. You can still try to not offend people, and if something you do is offensive to a minority or a persecuted group, then fucking change it. It's not rocket science.
@@ravenfrancis1476 offense is percieved. Cowtowing to a mob is an excellent way to have no ability to speak
DeepCFisherman Caring about people’s feelings isn’t “cowering to a mob”, Richard Spencer.
@@ravenfrancis1476 I specifically said cowtowing for a reason. Lol nice use of "everyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi"
"I mostly got weirded out when characters kissed on screen or when girl characters were weirdly lacking in autonomy" - Red explaining why I almost always gravitated to the male-presenting or tomboyish characters with no romantic attachments.
Also, "I could personally go my entire life without seeing another forced romantic subplot" - I feel seen :D
Beowulf looking at the modern manly men: "Pathetic."
Note that Beowulf in the classical poem is stated to never be married in his life, might as well mean he didn't have any relationships at all.
Looks at Siegfried/Sigurd. Huh, loving wife, badass, fought a dragon, invincibility only slightly worse than Achilles.
@@wickederebus Seriously? Achilles best friend died because Achilles refused to give his wive that he just got as "trophy" to his commanding general. And then Achilles died because of his own greed.
@@robbieaulia6462 you seem to misunderstand what I said.
His invincibility is worse than Achilles. Nothing else was being compared
@@robbieaulia6462 "Best friend" next you're gonna tell me they were roommates
Question: have you ever thought of tracing a modern book back to the roots it has in myths?
Beowulf inspired parts of Tolkien's work, yes, but have you ever considered doing a video that went the other way?
Pieter Giesen Wait wait wait... could you clarify what you mean by roots it has in myths? You use Beowulf inspiring Tolkie 's work as an example of going in the opposite direction, which is the part that confused me.
phoenixrises11 I think they mean that in books, like Harry Potter (I am a big fan, okay? Sue me.), Rowling must have found inspiration for some of the things she added, like hippogriffs, in old myths. Or there might be modern works inspired by the old classics. Kinda like Hercules, but more subtle?
Personally I would like to see Red finding out if modern litterature has roots in the past, But I think it will be very difficult, since many writers take inspiration from many different sources.
Of course modern literature has roots in the past. It's really not that difficult to identify. I've found literally an entire book (scratch that-- two entire books) on the mythology and folklore behind Harry Potter, and by now I've gotten very good at recognizing where different ideas come from (it helps to be a writer myself). With all her study of classics, I'm sure Red has already done plenty of that, but I agree a video series would be awesome.
Nyx Shadowhawk Yes, it would be awesome! I was just worried about there being too much to cover, but it seems like it is easier when you are someone who have studied older texts and/or is an experienced writer.
Since I am neither I don't catch things like that, but I see how people who know how to look at it sees where things are from.
Pieter Giesen Watership Down -> The Aeneid -> The Odyssey
I have to argue your depiction of Frodo as 'not strong or iron-willed'. He was carrying the One Ring. The One Ring that Sauron would use to control all others. The One Ring that Sauron forged a hefty part of his power and, for lack of a better term, his very SOUL into. Power that grew harder and harder to resist the closer he got to Sauron.
And Frodo defied that power and evil intent bearing down on him literally to the last second before succumbing to it. He defied a power for months that such mighty figures as Aragon, Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel would not DARE cope with at all.
In short, when put to the test Frodo mustered such strength and willpower it puts most other heroes - and all the other characters in LotR - to shame.
Not really, he was just better suited for it. Aragorn did what Aragorn was good at while Frodo did what he was good at. Frodo certainly was strong willed but not necessarily any more than the rest of the fellowship. What made him special was that he was a hobbit, and hence, he came from a place where no one aspires to be anything special. The ring exploits peoples ambitions by claiming that it can make them come true. That is why people like Gandalf, Aragorn and Boromir can't be around the ring for extended periods of time, because they aspire to do great things and have huge goals concerning entire kingdoms. Frodo never had that. Frodo never really wanted to do anything apart from maybe travel a bit. When Sam briefly has the ring it promises to make him a great gardener, which Sam thought was silly. Hobbits simply just come from a culture of no ambition, and the ring struggles to deal with that. Sure, there is a degree of willpower to it, but it's not the deciding factor.
@@TheWildmanden Greetings Sauron, seems you still haven't learnt to stop underestimating hobbits. They do not lack for ambition or desire at all either by the way, that's just wrong.
The thing is that the more powerful characters can't cope with the Ring because they ARE powerful. If they weren't so powerful, they wouldn't necessarily have as big a problem with the Ring. It's because Frodo is so inherently "powerless" due to him being a Hobbit that he can even handle the Ring. That's the whole point why he's the one carrying the Ring.
It's because they're so inherently less powerful that the Hobbits all seem to be able to handle the Ring fairly well. And their aspirations aren't not high or special or real but it's because they strive to be good at something relatively mundane as being the best gardener.
I think it's that because they aren't inherently as powerful or ambitious that they can handle the Ring as they do.
(also I don't like Frodo, Sam would've been a so much better ring bearer, just my opinion lol)
Frodo is not iron willed, look at Bilbo, he is the truly iron willed character.
Frodo is like an extremely gloomy and depressed leather bag that the other characters have to haul across Middle-Earth. Hell, the finale of the journey literally has Sam CARRY Frodo up the volcano. He's not a character, he's a plot device as much as the ring is a plot device. He's the least interesting part of Lord of the Rings, and I think that's a good thing, since it opens up a lot of options for better characters to get good story arcs.
A lot of these story tropes are also unjustly expected of men in the same way, expected to be physically strong, have manly interests, be constantly in a state of chasing romance, and expected not to have a woman superior in work or otherwise. It kinda sucks honestly, I know there's a lot of unhealthy stuff expected from women but it is nice to see the bad and unhealthy forced stereotypes of men talked about to. It helps make men who don't fit the traditionally manly ideal feel a lot more valid so I'm glad it's being talked about!
My general rule is don’t write characters write people
Nice quote, I agree
Can you explain that for me
For his quote he explains that when you write characters you dont just make up a person you reinvent a person
@@josephmartins1067 How I see it is when your writing a character think about them as if they were a real person you could physically talk as an a real person rather than your own creation heck make a few tables then roll a dice to see what happens then roll with the corresponding results that seems to work for me.
Yeah!
The problem with this character trope is that they dehumanize the character making them seem untouchable, 2-dimensional, and someone we can't really identify with.
Harvey Thomas I know, there are badasses irl like you said, but I'm talking about the emotionless and vanilla kinda character, which are usually strong in about all areas.
Harvey Thomas but even then, they do mess up and probably aren't badass 100% of the time like fiction writes them tobe
You rarely cough in fiction
You rarely shit in fiction
You rarely are sick in fiction (unless it's a plot point to start the hero's adventure)
You rarely do a lot of thing in fiction, especially things that "make you look bad" unless it's intended to. A real life badass will make mistakes because he's real. A fiction badass won"t. It's to be expected. It's the point. I really don't understand the point you're trying to make, CJ
But wouldn't it be better if things were different just once? Like, sure it's to be expected, but that's what makes it boring and unoriginal. You see it all the time, and it no longer amuses you, because it's what you expect. If the audience can predict every move your character makes before they make it, then your probably writing shitty story, with a shitty character.
Mackenzie Mcgaffie There's a difference between "tropes" and predictable.
Tl;Dr the "Expected" is a tool to be used by an author to evolve the plot and add to the character. If the author manages to play around with the "Expected" and use it well, then it is a great tool. Also original isn't necessarily good.
I'd use the Riryia's chronicle books as a perfect example. Starts off with archetypes everywhere and turns them on their head mid story. A prime example off using the "expected" correctly. The badass Hadrian is badass as ever but the changes are found elsewhere. Not in his combat aptitude, but in other places like the way he sees the world which by the end is fundamentally different. the badass mercenary who fought for himself and his friend but always dreamed of a righteous and glorious path now see the complexity there is behind said path as soon as he got the opportunity to get on the rails to his "righteous path" (when he learned about his legacy).
Also original =/= good. A good story with archetypal characters will always be better than a story with astoundingly original characters and no depth.
One thing I have noticed when men are doing "girly" stuff, it's usually either for comedy, or they're of course badass at it. You can't have a guy in a movie that's medium good at cooking (they have to be terrible or fantastic), or who enjoys shopping for clothes (unless they're gay... because only gay men wear clothes, right?.) Even though those people exist and aren't even that uncommon.
I like how Shirou Emiya is characterized. He lost his parents and then got adopted by Kiritsugu Emiya who he lived with for five years before Kiritsugu's death. He then lived basically on his own, taken care of a friend of Kiritsugu's named Taiga Fujimura. His living expenses and other financial problems taken care of by Taiga's yakuza boss father, and spent a lot of time living alone. He learned to cook and take care of himself and taught a friend's sister how to cook after she took care of him after an injury.
"Stop forcing stupid romance sub plots," I actually turned one of my characters into a reoccurring dark joke because I noticed they were a boring love interest.
They are now a glitch that can only stay connected to reality if you draw a pentagram with cheese wiz.
Oooh, now I have a reason to go out and buy more Cheez Whiz. I may use this romance subplot summoning ritual in my own writing. hehe...
I gotta say, I agree that I could go the rest of my life without having to see another forced romantic subplot, or even any romantic subplot that's not absolutely chock full of chemistry. I feel like that's not a common opinion though, because I only ever seem to hear it from myself and other ace/aros.
Why is it that the male protagonist has to absolutely have a remantic subplot? You know what need to become more mainstream? Platonic relationships between males and females. Kind of like what they're doing in Stranger Things season 3.
@@ADean415 "Why is it that the male protagonist has to absolutely have a remantic subplot?" They dont.
"You know what need to become more mainstream? Platonic relationships between males and females." But really its far harder to have men and women be friends since on average their intrests do not line up.
@@gunarsmiezis9321 And yet film and tv are full of examples of couples mashed together because "romance". Also interests not lining up is not a deal breaker, it just means you have more to talk about
@@ADean415 "And yet film and tv are full of examples of couples mashed together because "romance"." I dont get that.
" Also interests not lining up is not a deal breaker, it just means you have more to talk about" Political ideolagy and personality also does no line up in most cases.
I'm completely straight, and I share that opinion. I really dislike forced romantic subplots. I especially dislike how every story targeted at teenagers has a love triangle shoved into it seemingly just because the writers think it needs to have a love triangle because teenagers.
“Or it could just be the internet, I don’t know.”
-Red
Its definitely the internet.
Hold on, can we take a second to appreciate her drawing style, color choice, and brush strokes?
*deep breath*
Lovely, thank you for your time
💙
I have a side character in an action story who is huge and ripped, being stronger than most of the main cast in terms of raw power. But he is absolutely not a fighter, he doesn't like conflict, it stresses him out and he just wants to stay in his quiet life. I figure just because someone has the physical capability to fight doesn't mean they can handle it psychologically.
There's a character in Xenoblade Chronicles X who's just like this. He's as big and bulky as the mech suits of the setting, but he would rather work in construction than have to fight
Also usually most men that look like Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson or Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime just simply don't fight. Look at most athletes who fight. Weightlifting which usually makes big looking guys is a different skill than fighting. For one, weightlifting makes muscles big in repetitive exercises. Fighting requires more mobility and typically more improvisational so most fighters aren't that big. Even heavy weight boxers don't look like weightlifters because their fighting/weightlifting kinda determines which muscles get bigger. Bruce Lee was very lean and mobile, maneuverble etc..most weightlifters or big guys aren't usually violent as they express rage typically with weight lifting or doing hard manual labor. Big men more frequently in contact sports like sumo or judo or football might be more violent since they get big by dominating an opponent during high stress periods. And obviously not all big men in those areas are violent just because they do those activities just to clarify
We are men, manly men.
in tights
In tight T I G H T tights
High Ground blowing bubbles, chasing jellyfishes, singing goofy guber song, we're goofy guber
we roam around the forest looking for fights.
*sings* Men Men men Manly men men men
Whenever I make a character from now on, in the flaws section, I'll just write "Human" for good measure
Ngl leaving your character's gender identity up to viewer's interpretation sounds very interesting
@@airplanes_aren.t_real also seems a little difficult to do. I don’t know if that’s ever actually been tried before. has it?
@@domino_201 I thought about it for 2 seconds and realized how hard that would be, I think that there have probably been shapeshifters that were very closed to achieving it
@@domino_201 actually I think that frisk from undertale fits the description
@@domino_201 it depends on the medium. If it's something like a novel, then you could presumably right around ever mentioning gender identity. It might read a bit weird at points because you're trying to avoid an entire description, but a sufficiently good writer could probably do it.
In a visual medium, it's a little trickier. You could maybe go the route of making a character more androgynous, but that also could result in your audience just assuming things, though some art styles are so abstract that it's somewhat difficult to tell anyway. You could also just have your character be in a cloak/ robot suit/whatever and never actually show them. Maybe give them a fairly neutral Voice (or both an overlapping male and female voice) for good measure. I'm sure it could be done.
I know undertale was mentioned, although I have a differing example, I think of the boat person who is never described with any gendered pronouns, is entirely obscured by a cloak, and because their dialogue is entirely text-based, the voice is up to viewer interpretation.
I still see strong female characters being criticized for "trying to be male". But shouldn't those traits be universally admirable in any individual, rather than assuming those traits are exclusive to a male archetype? A strong female shouldn't be seen as just a female wishing they had a penis.
There are some traits that are just associated with males and females, even though real life is much more murky than that; and unfortunately, traits considered to be masculine are generally thought of as good, while feminine traits are often considered bad. For example, the common belief about emotions: "being emotional is bad; girls are ruled by their emotions and guy's aren't supposed to show (or have) emotion". But in reality, the whole idea of being 'unemotional' just means that the characters don't deal with their feelings and are likely to blow up at the worst possible moment and make a mistake. Likewise, a female character (actually, pretty much any character) in fiction who's emotional is seen as being weak and 'over emotional', but would likely be entirely competent in real life. Also, being in tune with their emotions, realistically they would have control over them.
JustmeNicko Look up "Sigmund Freud"
JustmeNicko He sure as hell did. Penis envy is the name. We allegedly know in our core beings that the penis is the most important thing in the universe and we go through stages about it, including trying to seduce our fathers at the ever so advanced age of three so we can have one by proxy.
PrototypeBul "Penis envy" is the phrase Freud used in English translation, though what the original German really means isn't something I've investigated. And yes, that's what came to be called an Electra complex thanks to Carl Jung. Freud rejected the idea the experiences were analogous and so declined to give the girl's side its own name save to call it the "negative" Oedipus complex. It's all tied into the claim that children are in psychosexual competition with their same-sex parent for the love of the other-sex one. But Freud really did argue that sex was the reason for everything we do.
I've been taught about Freud by at least three different professors during my psychology studies, and he always sounds that busted. One gave him a partial defense by saying he started his work by calling out Vienna's high society for rampant child molestation and incest, but the people with the money he needed to curry favor with were so disgusted he revoked those statements and re-tooled it to blame the children. He's the one person to claim this I've seen so far, so I can't say if it's true or false.
+Lysana McMillan Having a penis is so important that people will literally be killed more often because of it. Or will be expected to die for those that don't have a penis. Or will be considered disposable unless they have status or a wife.
The No.1 tip I could ever give is quite simple: “Different doesn’t mean better”
Ah. The wise words of the Cheshire Cat from American McGee's Alice: Madness Returns.
"Different denotes neither bad nor good. But it certainly means not the same."
I enjoy the responsible Manly Man character. The one who is big, strong, tough and completely ok making dinner for his family of 4, taking care of his kids, his wife, his parents, is a good sumaritan and an overall good dude.
I feel like being a Manly Man is a way of life that's under attack in recent years by people who think that kind of life is somehow less fulfilling than their own unorthodox path.
Brooklyn 99, Terry Jeffords. He is absolutely that! I love it
No, feminists, LGBT and peace activists are protesting an unrealistic, unhealthy and uncomfortable stereotype of men as cold-blooded killers, expendable cannon fodder and playboys. Your kind of man is just a good family man.
Jaelon Griffin so... Shiro?
Darla Lathan men are expendable cannon fodder though. That’s why only men are eligible for the draft
@@deraokoli7746Yea throw us all in the meat grinder, women can make more of us its all right.
I don't know if I'm a unicorn or I'm just missing something but I've never had a problem getting invested in a character or seeing from their point of view becuase of their race, culture, or gender. I actually thought most people had this same perspective until a couple of years ago. I guess I can see why people act that why but it still seems kind of alien to me.
Agreed! If the characterisation is good, I can get into their POV, how different they are to me doesn't come into it. An example of where I couldn't get into a character is the recent Captain Marvel film. I couldn't get behind her as a character: not because she's a woman and I'm a man, but because she was written like a card-board cut-out with no interesting traits, character development and most importantly flaws. So yeah, I don't think you're the only one and I too for the longest time thought everyone thought the same way but it turns out they don't!
People be crazy.
Progressive Politics actually made me forget how much I loved non white and non male heroes as a kid way back when, without my intention being to "be more inclusive in my consumption". Kim Possible, That's So Raven, Static Shock, affirmative action in media and politically charged movie marketing would make it seem like kids were bias against other races, but kids were always watching these shows and intersectionality as a political goal only makes the conflict worse.
@@scarletsky2614 ya people be crazy
I have an exstramely hard time to relateing to almost anyone do to Asburges in real life but i can relate to characters in fictional character regardless of there race or gender. I don't know why maybe it's becouse only the contexts is gaven.
When I saw that the title was Manly Men I wanted to see a JoJo reference.
Women will never understand Jojo.
@@Gaia_Gaistar what? everyone loves Jojo! 😂
ゴゴゴゴゴ
Is that a JoJo reference?
@Cian McCabe
Tequila Joseph is best waifu.
"I personally could go my entire life without watching another forced romantic subplot..."
Same, those get annoying after like 2 of them.
As a straight guy I will attest that much of our life is spent in a relationship, looking for a relationship, or getting over a relationship. It's a fairly recent phenomenon for straight men to avoid relationships, be it actively or not (or at least so it seems). And to answer your question, yes it is tiring, both on ourselves and hearing about it from others.
I gave up on looking for a relationship, Now I'm looking for paychecks.
Go for the dough, not the hoe, fellas.
I've just given up on finding love
If you have a function pair of balls on you, it's only natural to pursue a partner.
Any dude who says otherwise is trying to convince himself that his failure is out of choice, but it's not, it's a lack of will and a lack of confidence
vinny fire or y’know, being asexual.
That's why I love "Die Hard" and specifically John McClane sooooooooo much! He isn't an invincible hero, he is a slightly average everyman and a decent police guy. Some of his antagonists like Karl are way stronger than him and he gets beaten and shot and wounded countless times and can barely keep moving, but he still does.
That guy is alone, feels helpless and all that is keeping him going is his freaking humor. Even his marriage fails because of his and Holly's stubbornness. He has flaws, strengths and real character. Yeah, I just love that guy...
Besides that his wife kicks kicks subtle ass and manipulates freaking Hans Gruber! Just putting it out there, that movie is perfect, or at least the characters are! =)
to bad this franchise went garbage...
"slightly average everyman turns out to be a hero" is one of the most basic action movie tropes in like forever
hammer untruth Thank you very much for sharing your experiences, and thank you as well for your service. I very much agree with you re: your thoughts about fear and bravery, and how that does or does not relate to gender, but one thing you said jumped out at me that I wanted to address:
>I have been witness to *females* and *children* doing some of the bravest things, and of grown *men* crying...
In the quoted example, you used the human gender and age standard for some ("men" and "children" instead of "males" and "offspring," for example) but did not use the human standard "women," opting instead for the animal standard of "females." This jumped out at me because, when we refer to animals, we usually say "the male" or "the female," like in nature documentaries, but when referring to humans, we say "men" and "women." Your use of "men" and "females" in the same sentence (instead of "males" and "females," or "men" and "women") made it sound as if you place women on a lesser rung than men, being more like an animal than a human. Was this your intention?
Yeah, McClane's badassness is his endurance. The entire movie, people are telling him to quit, even when he's pulling shards off glass from his bare feet, he doesn't stop. That's his badass thing.
Autumn... I know it's been a month... BUT you asked regarding "Men" in one moment and "females" in another...
There aren't too many places you're ever going to see anyone doing truly heroic and courageous things... It sucks, but those truly heroic and courageous things, even once committed to... well... they don't always turn out so well...
For someone "in the field"... It's never really easy to see it, not for anyone... BUT you tend to see a lot more men get taken down a notch than women... Sometimes, when talking about it after... It's just kind of automatic that you use terms to distance your experience from that reality, so... you see so many men die... you get calloused... But then you see a woman... and it's just a little more comfortable to say "female" later... especially regarding soldiers...
Another contributing factor is that in the military, "female" is the most common term for a woman, even though we still call a man a "man"... It's kinda dumb... but that's just part of "military BS jargon".
As for children... and... yeah, it's also tough, but there are just so many recruited by horrible factions overseas, some of the guys and gals still call them "killdren"... BUT as sad as it is, it's a fact that you get kinda calloused to that too.
I hope it helps you understand where the terms come from and some of why... ;o)
Aladdin screwed up pretty badly. By reneging on his promise to free the Genie, he allowed Jafar to take the lamp, leading to an atrocious direct-to-VHS sequel that can never be undone.
That's why he embodied a bad habit.
I love how Rick Riordan actually played this expectation to his own ends. He wrote The Lightning Thief featuring a straight white trio (who are nevertheless also representative of a minority group in having ADHD and dyslexia) to make it more attractive to mainstream publishers, then once the Percy Jackson series got hugely popular (i.e. too big for Hyperion to bitch about) he introduced a massive cast of POC and LGBTQ+ characters IN POV ROLES come Heroes of Olympus, Kane Chronicles, Trials of Apollo, and Magnus Chase
Hmmm. I don’t remember any lgbtq characters? But I liked frank because Asian so yay.
@@WaywardVector I don't remember any in POV roles, but iirc Nico is gay. But I haven't read the Apollo and Magnus stuff so there might be others
I can't remember any gay or lgbt characters in the kane chronicles, then again been years since I've read any of them.
Lgbt wasn't really a thing when the original PJO books came out either
@@annakrawczuk5221 Apollo is very bisexual and there's definitely characters in magnus chase that are lgbtq and magnus explains this quite rationally.
@@annakrawczuk5221 Nico did have a perspective role and so did piper (who is bisexual)
Eren Yeager, Heroic Flaw: Wrath
manga readers: oof, if only you knew
I mean, it arguably still is, it's just a different type of wrath. It's just not as in your face as his pre-time skip years.
Zus Frankenstein I agree. It’s a very refined wrath now and honestly he’s doing a bang up job with his goal.
I really like how his wrath went from a hot boiling anger in seasons 1-3 to a cold calculating fury in season 4
You mean he’s worse? How?!
@@intergalactic92 Hitler turned up to eleven worse.
"I'm neither a guy or straight"
Me: huh more you know now let's see the train wreck in the comments
(Nothing)
Me: really? Nothing! really!? Why can't people be this nice everywhere else !?!
What year do you live in lmao, society, at least the part of it that spends its time on decent parts of the internet like this one isn't homophobic, acephobic and/or anything else
@@CreeketsCreek what year do YOU live in? Because I'd really like to join you
because these people are about listening more than talking
Personally, i live for this ace representation
Yeah but that makes people's brains hurt 😥
I saw the notification and yelled TROPE TALK
Thehumanbean ME TOOeventhoughitwasjustinmyheadandidn'trealyshoutoutloud!!!!
Same
Did the people around you find this odd, or are they used to it by now?
+NightSky kinda a mix of both
Why did you do that though? Are you not able to just keep your thoughts in your head? Do you have some kind of problem?
The never making mistakes thing was actually a really interesting observation.