Jak & Daxter - Time Travel Explained!
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- Опубликовано: 23 мар 2017
- So in Jak & Daxter 2 (Jak II Renegade), time travel was introduced. When it comes to time travelling aspects, out of Ratchet & Clank and Sly Cooper, Jak & Daxter has succeeded at confusing a lot of us.
What is time travel in Jak 2 Renegade? It's a pure time loop. At the ending of Jak 2, Samos had explained that it was Jak's destiny to go back in time to Sandover village along with young Samos.
Although is is a time loop, there is an exit. After Kor got defeated, Jak & Daxter continued going on adventures in Jak 3 and so on. There was no sacrifice needed to be made, as in there is a time loop but our main characters still lived on.
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Again I'll summarise:
-Kor takes a look into the past to see if what Onin said was true.
-Had MAYBE set his eyes out for old Jak first (Jak growing up in Haven City he thought).
-By going back to Haven, he thought he would end up in the future where young Jak was already sent. He had intended to use old Jak to activate the stone.
-Fortunate enough to end up in Haven where young Jak was still present. Since old Jak was corrupted by Dark Eco, he used young Jak; in other words, everything was going according to plan.
If Kor had ended up in Haven when Jak was already sent, he would no longer be able to go to the past, because the last rift gate was used to send young Jak and Samos. He was fortunate enough to end up in Haven where young Jak was still present.
But WAIT, if Kor and the gang had already used the last rift gate, how come they were still able to use it? We can assume the last rift gate was still in working condition. After the gang followed their destiny and went back, that's when the rift gate got destroyed.
VTNVIVI Ok, you could explain the time travel between "Jak and Daxter" and "Jak II". However, at the end of "Jak III", Jak said to his gang something about "I'd like to be called by my really name: Mar", so Ashelin get confused about Jak could be "that Mar" we all hear during the trilogy. Is that true? Is Jak that "Mar"? If yes, How could be him? I'll appreciate a lot if you can make a video about this :D
Santiago Bonelli nun I don't think Jak is mar because they never shown at the end of jak3 that Jak never went back to the pass to build haven city since mar him self build haven city.
And Jak said at the end of the 3th game you could called me by my first name mar.
I think Jak is name after mar not the mar that build haven city.
I think he is the son of mar though, i may be wrong though. also if Jak 4 ever come out there could be a part where he does go back and builds Haven City.
Your quotes are inaccurate, but it should be common sense that Jak is only Mar's descendant, named after him in honor.
VTNVIVI ok let's just say the game daxter actually happened if u played or watched gameplay u will see kor told the baron to go with the dark warrior program once jak came through the rift gate wouldn't he know already that jak will be tainted with dark eco?
I love how throughout Jak 2 itself, they reference the time travel and hint that the boy is Jak.
Samos: "So, this is how it happened..."
Samos: "Find yourself, Jak!"
Errol: "We've been waiting for you."
Pecker: "Onin says it's good to see you again, Jak."
Jak: "But we've never met before?"
God, I love this game.
Indeed!
Samos also calls the boy "young Jak" in the final cutscene of Jak 2, along with Jak telling him to "Avoid any wumpbee nests on his 9th birthday"
Oh you see what he said to Onin? My theory I came up with ever since I played jak 2 for the first time back in...when was it? 03 or 04 i believe...anyways, my theory has always been that Onin is the bird lady. But then, years later like around between 2015-2021, I made another theory for online, which is that she's a descendant OF the bird lady. But I feel like my first theory makes way more sense because if she was a descendant of the bird lady then how would she know jake? Now that doesn't make sense. But what also doesn't make sense is how she survived for that long.
Bit late to the party but also when Young Jak hands old Jak the security pass. It really focused on them touching hands.
Jak 2 honestly has the most straightforward time travel I've seen in a game. It's not really complicated. Jak, Born in the future, sent to the past to grow up and get strong, gets sent to the future, kills Kor, sends his younger self to the past. And it's safe to assume that Kor could've just naturally lived the entire 300 year gap seeing as how he was already the precursor's ancient enemy. Really straight forward.
Not often I hear people use the term straightforward :P
@@VtnVivi No I suppose not. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@orangexlightning interesting
But originally how did his future self send his past self to the past if old jak doesn’t exist yet
isn't 300 years a little too soon for a primitive island civilization to become a massive city-state? Remember Mar is said to have founded Haven City in ANCIENT TIMES. Idk about you but when I think of "ancient times" I think about well over 1000 years ago, not 300.
It's a simple causal loop. The OG crew get shot into the future, meet young jak and young Samos who get sent back in time to safety, where they grow older, daxter and Keira come into the picture, and then do it all over again.
Exactly!
Jt Hogan but i think what most fans want to know is.....how did it START? The loop had to have began somewhere. Meaning something different had to have happened to cause the loop to begin. Like Jak didnt send his younger self back the first time, after that he did and it became repetitive. U get me?
Some people believe that you can't change the past. So this loop didn't have a beginning. It's just the way it has always been and will always be.
Thats a fact , i’ll tell u what happened jack and samos got kidnapped from the past and sent to the future
No one knows how it started
Time travel always manages to hurt my brain
I know :(
Hard to get round it
the way I play jak and daxter is I play through jak two, jak and daxter precursor legacy, jak two again (for story purposes), jak 3 and then jak X. Jak and daxter the lost frontier should never have existed.
Oh :O
We dont talk about lost frontier
Wow
Do you mind explaining more why you play in that order
You should be playing through Jak 2 again in HERO MODE. Cause now you're a true hero.
This is basically what happened without any real explanation of why it happened.
-Young Jak sent to past by older self
-Grows up and goes through events in 1st game
-Goes through rift
-Defeats Kor and sends younger self to past
-Goes through events of Jak III, Jak X and that other game which doesn't even deserve mentioning.
-??? (Jak 4 and we'd know more).
Pretty much :P
The best premise for an actual Jak 4 would be Jak and Daxter and whoever else, being sent back in time after the events of Jak 3 to some actual time between leaving Sandover Village and getting to Haven City, which is when that Great War must have happened that they talk about in Jak 2 and 3, and that is where we would see the events of Jak coming to be known as Mar.
@@jthogan7642 I know this was 2 years ago, but how could Jax X happen if and when jak 4 ever is made if he gets sent back after the events of Jak 3?
Let's pretend TLF isn't canon.
we need jak 4 for the answers.
Hey I mean we might never get the answer even in a new game.
Oh nonono here:
Jak is born in haven city and he meets older jak (jak2) and older jack sends him and young Samos 300 years back in time when haven city hasn’t been built yet, they live in sand over village for years, after jack and daxter have got all of the power cells they travel 300 years into the future(a couple months before young jack gets sent to the past) when they arrive in the future jack gets touched by dark ego and explores haven city built by the ancient Mar(Future Jak), jak saves haven city, defeats Kor and sends his younger self back 300 years into the future(Loop)
After jak has saved haven city and sent his younger self to the past to become him he gets banished to the wastelands (jak3) and meets his father (Damos) after saving haven city again and the wastelands jak continues his journey in jak4?????? After some events jak decides to travel back in time to the past to sandover village after jak (jak1) has traveled to the future and he calls himself by his true name(Mar) and he builds haven city from the ground by sandover village after years of construction when haven city is finally built jak is old and hides the Precursor thing in his tomb before he eventually dies. That’s the end of Jak LOL
this is clever indeed.
Alex Drez very
@@alexdrez4505 that's what I think but still complicated, why jak would go to the past again.. (destiny?)
Man I remember first finding out about the time travel thing at the end of jak 2 as a kid it blew my freaking mind
PEOPLE MAKE VIDEOS ABOUT JAK IN 2017!?!?!??! OH MY GOD
Crazy I know O_O
VTNVIVI I love you
And people follow it in 2019 haha!
Just like San Andreas, Jak and Daxter are legendary.
The whole game is a time loop. It actually starts from Jak 2. He just goes to the "future" (which is Young Jak's present). The real Jak did continue through Jak 3 but Young Jak still went to the past to grow up to kill Kor.
As Daxter said "The more you think about it, the more it hurts the head."
You forgot to note that the group panicked and accidentally launched themselves when Kor appeared in the rift gate. When metalheads began invading, they were calm and it would be possible for them to figure out how to close the gate, clean up the damage, and possibly get answers from Samos (Jak would get more training as well as experience in fighting metalheads before going to the future). Samos also never says a single word about the future until it was clear that the future is now written in stone. I like to believe there are two different time "loops" and they cross each other like a figure 8.
In the first "loop", we get a fully trained older Jak going into the future when he wants to. This Jak is armed and ready to lead the war against Kor. Kor doesn't like his odds against this older Jak and tries to find answers. By appearing in the past, he creates the second "loop" where Jak enters the future pre-maturely with no knowledge of what to expect. The first "loop" Kor is then defeated and Samos and young Jak is sent to the past without knowing Kor altered it.
In the second "loop", we have the common Jak and first "loop" Samos going into the future without preparation. First "loop" Samos has no knowledge of second "loop" future and is easily captured. Jak is unprepared and chaos ensues. Second "loop" Kor doesn't feel threatened by this Jak and didn't change the past as badly as his first "loop" counter-part. Jak manages to defeat Kor and second "loop" Samos and young Jak is sent to the past. Second "loop" Samos is now aware of the greater threat which increases the chance of creating the first "loop" rather than another second "loop".
I feel my theory also fixes the chicken and the egg problem. There are many things that could happen but they all would either being the first or second loop which would then complete itself. Maybe in the first timeline, Kor wasn't defeated and Samos fled to the past with young Jak. If Kor searched for young Jak, we get the second loop and if not, we get the first loop.
This confused me enough to make sense
I’d would be great to see the scenario in which JAK is fully trained before stepping into the rift to face KOR as a DLC spin off kinda a thing
Or at least a little short film of what could’ve been
Such a cool thought
The Oracle said that Kor chased Mar through time, and that Mar hid his tracks well. Therefore we can deduce that the "last rift gate" doesn't really mean the last one in existence, it means the last one that Mar went through before founding Haven City, which was all that was between Kor and the last Precursor Stone, his one true goal. You don't really need a whole lot of back and forth or theories involving changing what was implied to have happened in Jak II. Kor went through the gate, Mar showed up, founded Haven City, 300 years later, older Jak shows up, etc. etc. I think Occam's Razor applies in this case.
Kor said that this is where it all began, knowing that at some point Jak did defeat him, which is how young Jak went back into the past. However, he misconstrued the idea that Onin believed Jak needed to be untouched by dark eco to defeat him. On the contrary, it's revealed in the spin-off Daxter game that Onin was actually the one who informed the Baron of Jak's arrival, knowing that he needed the dark powers to defeat Kor, which Kor himself did not know, thus his "original plan" that he thought all was going according to was foiled.
Also, no reason to believe Kor is immortal just because he can live for really long. He's not human, so he isn't necessarily restricted to human lifespans. That said, he lived for far longer than just "hundreds of years", at least if we're to believe that the "dark leader" the Oracle referred to was indeed Kor and not someone else.
Thank you for sharing! I purposely did not talk about Mar because that's whole complete different subject. True, Kor did chase Mar through time hence the phrase "you can't hide from be boy". Like I mentioned, Kor's presence at the rift gate wasn't really explained, it just left room for speculating. During the first time loop, Jak going to the future, Kor had no idea who old Jak was. Now in the second time loop, the one in which Onin predicted old Jak, Kor found out who Jak was. The way he was talking to him "It's you Jak!" makes it seem like he found out about this in this second time loop. So if Kor was chasing after Mar through the rift gate in Jak 2, sure we can say he was looking for Mar. If so, Kor later ended in a future where Haven City was founded, later to realise that Mar founded the city and hid the precursor stone. After all, Mar mysteriously died, meaning Kor wasn't involved in his death. Like you said, he goes through the rift gate trying to look for him, ends up in a future where Haven exists but with Mar dead.
But Jak is Mar, i'm confused. Mar had to have originated and founded haven city then seen a potential threat or a flaw and needed to go back in time to fix it so he found his young self and sent him even farther into the past to grow up? Where Mar would then die but because he basically duplicated himself he lives on to fulfill his destiny? It's like deja vu with Denzel Washington.
keep making jak and daxter videos. Favorite games ever. This was my childhood and would pay hundreds of dollars for another (real) jak and daxter. Good work. Keep it up
I know this video is roughly 2-years old but I thought I'd bring it up. There I believe is a type of time travel that's not used that much in any media. And that is if someone (in this case we'll say Jak & Daxter) was sent to the future, but they still affect the time after they already left. As if they never left in the 1st place. I know it doesn't make a lot of sense (I can see why this version is barely used) but it's how I've thought of the whole Mar thing with Jak.
But yes I agree with what you said and also about the time loop.
Jak 2 has most confusing storyline only losing to BioShock Infinite
Tell me about it.
Another theory could be that Jak 2 could could be the first loop essentially
In the future young Jak is born. As Jak 3 explains he is brought up in Haven city to be a weapon.
The metal head war still happens, but without adult Jak showing up, as he doesn't exist in this time.
The baron gets the last precursor egg and without adult Jak to stop him, he successfully detonates it.
Onin could see that if Jak grew up, he could beat Kor and the Baron, thus saving everyone.
She tells the underground this and in a last ditch effort they send Jak and their leader, Samos, to the past.
Kor sees them escape and jumps into the rift gate, and while he does see our Jak, he is swiftly shot to the future again.
From there Jak & Daxter 1 and 2 happen.
By the end however, Samos remembers that to keep time from paradoxing, they need to send young Jak and young Samos to the past.
This would explain how the loop was created without causing a paradox.
Ahh nice theory!
been waiting for a vid like this for a while glad to see a break down of it :D
Glad you enjoyed!
From what I gathered, Haven City is the future of The Precursor Legacy's (Jak 1) world. So in the beginning of Jak 2, they are sent to the future. However it turns out that Jak was actually originally from Haven City and sent back to the past, thus making the events of TPL take place in the past, and in the beginning of Jak 2 he was actually returned to his present.
As for whether Jak is the Mar, or just an ancestor by the name of Mar, it's not exactly made clear. Ashelin makes a comment along the lines of "Wait a minute, Jak is Mar? The Mar?" which would indicate that he is Mar, but then the series ended before they could do anything to confirm or deny that. I personally like to think he is the actual Mar of legend.
1. Correct
2. I will make a video talking about Mar, I purposely did not talk about him. All I'm going to say, I believe that Jak IS NOT Mar. There was a huge debate in the past.
VTNVIVI Mar story is very interesting. But I want to hear about it. Maybe jak could be the next person who become the next mar. so much questions... Like... Who jak mother? Will jak take his father place and become king? Why jak so good master every ego powers? We need jak 4! I really hope that one day that dream will become reality.
he wouldnt be going to his exact present cause little jak is there as a child, so is the time loop the exchange of old jak for little jal in each loop?
I know, so many interesting stuff to cover :D
Old Jak and Samos time travel to Haven City, where they have to go through the same thing over and over. So yes, young Jak is sent to Sandover, grows up and goes to Haven rinse and repeat.
I think the pre set coordinates were for Jaks birthday. Remember he's been in prison for 2 years when we first see young Jak, who has just started walking.
I don’t know if anyone has ever mentioned it but I like how Jak used to look in the first game instead of the last two I think they should have kept him the same except clothing differences and I thought keeping him mute made him more unique and relatable!
Funny enough just day before yesterday I found myself thinking about that time travel thing in Jak 2 and boy did my head hurt. So good to know I'm not the only one who get a headache because of thinking that too much. But my conclusion was pretty much the same than yours but you explained it better than me and more clearly. Thanks. And thank you of this great channel. I like your videos. It's fun to watch videos about my favorite games, like Sly Cooper-, Jak & Daxter- and Ratchet & Clank- series, from the guy who seems to be as excited about those games as I am.
I appreciate the support!
My brain does not hurt that much... it makes sense in a way.
I watch too much doctor who.
Ohh, what a relief XD
My G
The fact that NaughtyDog messed with such a messy time travel loop is a testament to how good this story is. In my opinion.
Oh not often I hear this :O
@@VtnVivi The time loop has always been a favorite part of the game for me, it brought up so many questions as a kid when I first played.
These videos are really cool! You are also close on getting 10 thousand subscribers! I would love to see more theories on Jak and daxter or sly cooper. I remember getting Jak and daxter when it first came out and I never finished the first game but I have beat 2 and 3.It would also be interesting if you played through Jak and daxter or something like that. And I would like to se a theory on the mar or something to do with the mar because it always interested me. Hope you get 10 thousand soon and keep making videos :D
And after watching this video I know more about the story xD I never new much about it but thanks
Glad you enjoyed and thanks a lot for the support! I will definitely talk about Mar and even the Precursors eventually, pretty interesting stuff! As for let's plays, that is currently not my focus :/
I like how Jak has an Uncle 300 years ago...
All this time stuff actually makes sense. What's confusing is why Jak was pumped with dark eco. And why we never see a young Keira.
Anyway, after the time loop had happened multiple times, I think Kor bribed the Baron to immediately inject Jak with Dark Eco because Older Jak kept beating him using the Precursor Stone. He assumed that he would easily kill Jak and get the Stone. However, a few pea shooters from Sig , Krew, and Torn somehow stopped him lol
Yep time travel, my brain hurts. Onin played a part in this, telling Erol of Jak's special abilites.
We don't see young Keria because she was born in Sandover village, Jak was born in the future in the city and when he and young Samos get sent back Jak lives like a normal child and Samos meets someone and those two have a baby and that baby is Keira. So while Jak and Samos *do* belong in the future, Keira and Daxter are actually from the past
Another thing to add to "Destiny" is that it was Keira who built the time vehicle in the first place, for her past self to discover with Jak, and then in Haven, over the course of roughly 2 and a half years, assemble it back together from her memory/recollection of it. Same thing with all of Mar's creations in Jak 3 for Jak to explore and discover.
The whole concept isn't entirely new, Back To The Future set the standard for having a sequence of events always play out and to NEVER disturb those sequences, or else you'd just fade from existence or the fabric of time would rip open and all existence would cease.
you forgot in Daxter after the last boss fight he says my master will be waiting outside, and who was waiting out there with young jak at the start of jak 2 after you escape? Kor
I had no clue how this 100% worked so thank you XD
I still got this game. I like it when young jak goes to the past. And old jak stays
I never saw it like this. Since time travel is (supposedly) pure fiction, there are several rules it can abide by. Time loops can work in different ways, and I prefer this: important events in history, events that are needed to make the future happen, MUST take place. Even if time travel is involved, and past is altered, those important events will happen anyway, maybe differently, but will still find a way to happen.
The way I saw it, is that metalheads invaded NORMALLY (no time travel), Haven City got built, young Jak was born, sent into the past to train, to then return. Kor SOMEHOW finds out about Onin's plan, and finds a way to get to the past, to stop the it. He ALMOST succeeds, but Jak uses the rift rider anyway. However, Jak then gets captured by Praxis, who was tipped off. That is where Kor succeeds. Jak is captured, and altered. Now, there is no adult Jak to fight Kor (with whatever superpowers the precursor stone offered), and young Jak is obviously too young to stop him also. HOWEVER, the IMPORTANT EVENT of YOUNG JAK AND SAMUS TRAVELING TO THE PAST, still happens. The events of Jak 1 happen after this time loop already happened, at least once. Also, I believe Kor stayed in the past, and got old by living the 300 years, waiting.
What is important to remember, however, is that the final product is not necessarily what was planned form the start. If you replay Jak 2 and 3 several times, you notice ideas and dialogues that hint at many other things, but lead nowhere. It should be obvious that Naughty Dog had grander plans for Jak and Daxter, and some of their ideas ended up scrapped. It is entirely possible that the plot of Jak II still has pieces of a previous draft of story from Naughty Dog's writers.
That was a lot of text, wasn't it?
Very interesting stuff you got there. The metal head war always happened, the invasion always happened anyway. Kor existed somewhere during the times of Sandover village, he was hiding we can say. The Kor we saw was simply from the future, trying to see if what Onin said was true. Kor was an ancient enemy to the precursors, so Kor starting everything from Sandover village is not necessarily true. He did send some metal heads, all that did is slightly alter the future in a way which wouldn't really ruin his plan. Let's just say he added more metal heads into the past, that's simply how I see it. The fact that he said ''you can't hide from me boy'' tells us that he was looking for someone, Jak. If Kor had stayed in the past, that means there would be two versions of him if we go with the idea that he existed 300 years ago, which he did if we go with the metal heads war. About what you said, the loop happening at least once, perhaps yes. The first loop happened without Kor looking into the past. For the second time, Onin predicts and Kor peaks into the past by also slightly changing the future.
It's great to see people still enjoy these games and still play them hopefully that will give naughty dog the idea to make the 4th one
I feel like ND has no more interest these days I don't know... they're much focused on more matured themed games.
Since kor is finaly defeated, he cant travel to the past anymore, hence the story continues
as daxter said: " the more you think about it the more it hurts the head" :) btw I aprecciate the work and time you spent doing this! Congratz!
Glad you enjoyed video thank you!
There was a glitch in Jak 2 (PS2) where you could enter Sandover village. You had to go to scene selection > First scene > take out the disk > put it back in. I always though it was a cool "hack". Yeah the time travel always was confusing but thanks for attempting to clarify.
I've heard that glitch before :O. Glad you enjoyed the vid!
JESUS CHRIST MY HEAD
Boom!
VTNVIVI That doesn't help LOL
Haha! Trust me, I was as confused as you are right now.
VTNVIVI loop is very simple so thanks
Would you kindly not use Christ's Name in vain? It's sinful and offensive. Thank you.
looking back on this jak himself could become the mar who founded haven city but he wouldn't be his ancestor,he could go back in time during the past at some point,and he could meet a young clan of warriors,maybe adopts them and they ironically could turn out to be actually be his biological ancestors,and they founded house of mar,after jak(mar)himself had vanished/die(in reality he could have returned back to the future near the end of jak 3)
for those who didn't understand, conclusion = 🍌
Banana
Every video i see with time travel in it, ALWAYS destroys my brain!😨
I know the feeling :P
This was pretty much exactly how I've been rationalizing all this in my head for the past 14 years or so. It made sense when I first played it, and I'm glad you cleared it up for everyone else that kept asking dumb questions about why they didn't see kid Jak wandering around in Jak III, or dumb questions about why there aren't a million Jaks wandering around.
There's like nothing to disagree with you with, you explained what happened. There's nothing to debate LOL.
Glad you found the video useful :)
Great video. I just love Jak and Daxter
Thanks :D
I'm a couple of years late on this, but I've been replaying the games recently, did some research and I'm pretty sure I get the time travel aspect of the game now. I'm also including excerpts from a Wiki on the matter.
From what I understand, Jak and the gang are in what we call a Causal Loop (not just a time loop). It's a loop in which a sequence of events is among the causes of another event, which is in turn among the causes of the first-mentioned event. So opening the Rift Portal in Jak 1 unleashed the Metal Heads in the world, which therefore caused the Second Metal Head War. But without the 2nd Metal Head War, Young Jak would have never been sent into the past, because he wouldn't have needed to grow up in order to fight Metal Kor. This phenomenon is also called predestination paradox, which means a time loop in which a time traveler who has gone into the past causes an event that ultimately causes the original future version of the person to go back into the past.
Simply put :
- 2nd Metal Head War leads to Jak being sent into the past
- Jak being sent into the past leads to 2nd Metal Head Wars
This is supposed to mess up your brain because the origins of Causal Loops are unknown. A similar example is given in Doctor Who, in which of a time-traveler who copies Beethoven's music from the future and publishes it in Beethoven's time in Beethoven's name. Maybe there is a timeline in which the 2nd Metal Head War happened without the Rift Rider and maybe there is a timeline in which Young Jak was sent into the past without the help of Older Jak, but we can't know for sure. Nonetheless, if this timeline happened, it disappears as soon as the Causal Loop is created. Because from now on, the Metal Heads invades earth following the opening of the Rift Rider and Young Jak is sent into the past with the help of Older Jak.
Go read on Causal Loops. It's super interesting.
Yep that's exactly how I'd NOW describe it :)
Nice one keep going!
Thanks 🔥
So this is the way I see it. There are two timelines. Mar built Haven City. Damas is a descendant of Mar, and named Jak after Mar. Young Jak was threatened by Kor to find the tomb of Mar and get the last precursor stone, but Kor could not be defeated and Samos left with Jak via a rift gate into the past. Damas loses Jak. When Jak is 15, they rebuild the rift gate to go back to the present. Now that Jak is grown, he can face Kor. But impatience has made Kor go back in time for another Jak, thus creating multiple timelines. When Kor is defeated, it could be assumed that young Jak went back in time and found Damas. But since the present doesn't become altered, young Jak never reunited with his father, so we can assume that Jak is where he is now, in Haven, as a result of staying there with Samos. In the third game, Jak discovers his father is Damas and that he is of the house of Mar.
In this way, everything comes full circle, and the only thing that's really very iffy is where young Jak goes. If Kor is defeated, there's no reason for him to go back to Sandover where teen Jak was, unless he just grows up in that timeline. In that case, he'd be dead and Jak wouldn't exist in the present. So he has to go back to his own timeline he was pulled from so as not to disrupt the cycle. So there is an instance of present, past, and deep past time travel.
tells young jak goes to Sandover villiage with young Samos to start the events of precursor legacy,there aren't two Jaks,it's always the same one we know
I think you're just smoked out.
Lol good explanation and good video.
Your little loop diagram is always how I thought it worked too. Jak was always going to be from the future, young and old Jak are always supposed to switch places.
I didn't know that thanks for the story. About jak and green samos
No problem!
Id think its worth mentioning Kor going through the rift gate unleashes the metal heads into the world to begin with potentially, as we see literally dozens fly through along with Kor. Implying this could have been the beginning of the bad things to come and to force the people of Jak 1 to evolve and adapt faster and more efficient.
It's not a time loop, from what I remember it's all Novikov, no new timelines made, Jak get's sent to the past, grows up, goes to the future, defeats yer mano, sends himself back and carries on. The term timeloop kinda implies a never ending cycle....
Very interesting explanation. Would you ever consider tackling the whole "Is Jak part of the Mar family, or THE Mar that built Haven City" theory? I've been going around the Internet and it seems a lot of people are confused about it. As much as I love Jak 3, it did give me a little trouble figuring that out due to some seemingly conflicting statements in game.
Ohhhh the whole ''Is Jak Mar'' thing? Absolutely ;) Yes, many are still confused.
Good video broski
Thanks boi!
This time loop stuff might be better served on a graph with an x-axis being time, left being the past and right being the future, and showing the paths of all of the characters.
True, but what if people found that even more confusing?
Samos' family is weird. If Keira is his daughter, biologically speaking, it means she was born after young Samos was sent back to the past with Jak, which means if he was like 3 or 4, that she was about 11 or 12 in the events of TPL since Jak is 15, plus they must have been raised together so they were more like brother and sister ? And the mother is inexistant (are they any mothers in the games tho ?) :0
I always wonder about the mother.
No its simply that Keira and even Daxter were not born in the future. Young Samos grew into Old Samos back at what was Sandover village but the problem is we keep assuming they went back to Sandover Village when in reality they went a bit farther back in time until Sandover village was created and everybody was born and grew up.
Great video
Thanks glad you enjoyed :D
Well, I'm lost so I think I'll have to just watch the video again
I think that'll help :P
I need to watch this again later when I'm not stoned
Okidoki.
What I can't understand is : The precursor statue in Mar's tomb said that "eons ago" they fought with Hora-Quan (Metalheads) and lost the battle.
What I can't understand is when did they fight if precursor have been disappeared before Jak 1 events and there aren't metal heads in Jak 1?
The battle with Hora-Quan could've happened elsewhere in the universe at that point no?
I see Kor’s first appearance through the Rift Gate as being the true origin point of the time loop. From what we know, the Metal Heads wiped out Precursor civilization and moved on, likely losing access to the Rift Gate on Jak’s planet. After Jak activates the Rift Gate in Jak II, Kor finally regains access to Jak’s world and creates the future we see in Jak II.
My theory is that the original timeline before Jak activates the Rift Gate for the first time is that Jak is actually just a boy born in the past to unknown parents and the Explorer actually is his uncle. After the events of the Precursor Legacy and the activation of the Rift Gate he creates a new timeline where Jak is a boy named Mar born in the future who goes back in time to become the Jak we see in The Precursor Legacy and then that “uncle” turns into an adopted uncle instead. So Jak was simultaneously born in Sandover Village AND Haven City. He’s just an anomaly in the time-stream in my eyes.
Or maybe Naughty Dog had some oversights because time travel storylines are really difficult to write in a way that avoids all plot-holes… lol
Sand over village is haven city in the future and maybe there are metal heads because kor looked through the past and all the metal heads went through? Idk this is my theory
Something like that yes! I didn't talk about Mar, but perhaps Kor was looking for Mar through time. By doing so, the metal heads destroyed Sandover. Mar hid in a timeline where he founded Haven City. I will dive deeper into this :)
When the rift gate got opened, the metal heads destroyed sandover village
I gotta say, this theory matches the plot of the Trilogy. This should be official for Jak and Daxter.
when jak was young he was stolen by vegar into haven city and that was tiny jak then the jak you were playing as goes into the future and at the end sends the boy to the jak and the precursor legacy village
Exactly.
hopefully if they ever make a jak 4 it will be in the time period where mar is around, that way wed have the full timeline and wont have to guess and make theories anymore
Hehe tell me about it!
I'd say the precursors couldn't defeat kor so they threw him into a rift gate and locked him in there along with the other metalheads. when Jak and everyone open the rift gate, they release Kor and everyone else gets shot through time to the future. Kor the uses Baron Praxis to remove Mar's bloodline from rule and capture young Jak as a way of keeping a pure Jak (descendant of mar) while getting the older Jak to do his bidding and get the last precursor egg.
I watched your video, and I think you may have overthought this a bit. Let me give you an alternative theory. We are working on the assumption that the Kor that came through the rift gate was coming BACK from Haven City. What if, instead he were coming from the future. Remember in Jak 3, the Precursors mention that they had been at war with the Hora-quan (Metal Heads) for centuries, always being equally matched. What if, instead of Kor coming from the future, he came from the past, hoping to find a world where the Precursors were no more. He hoped that he could let time work it's magic and find that the Precursors were already gone and he could easily take over the world. He comes through the rift and notices Jak freaking out in the rift. When Jak goes through the rift he is amused because he realizes that he will be still be around at whatever point in time Jak came to in and could kill him there. Kor then proceeds to take over the world with ease. He then has an iron clad grip on the world for hundreds of years until Mar comes around. He was able to unite the people to the point where they had a fighting chance against him. Kor engages humanity again, but finds himself in an endless stalemate. Remember Baron Praxis' words that he had been involved in at least one other war with the Metal Heads before. Kor realizes that Praxis is no match, but learns through his mole in Praxis' forces, Kaeden, that there is a band of underground fighters who, through the help of Onin, are looking for the heir to the throne of Mar. Kor realizes that the heir would be capable of destroying him. He infiltrates the Underground as an old man where he finds the boy. He immediately recognizes the Seal of the House of Mar and knows that he is the heir. He learns through Onin, now an ally of his, that the boy it is the boy's destiny to find the last remaining Precursor egg and use it's power to destroy the Metal Heads. He believes that he can use the power of the last Precursor egg to become even stronger and finally end this stalemate with the humans. What he didn't plan on though, was that the rift rider he ignored several hundred years earlier would arrive at that exact point in time and Jak would rise up the ranks of Underground to the point of becoming an actual threat to him. He also learns from Onin that Jak is the heir to the house of Mar. He then puts two and two together and realizes that the kid was sent back in time to protect him from Kor, but doesn't know the exact details of how it happened. He allows Jak to continue to assist in finding the Precursor egg believing that he can still easily take care of him when the time comes. However, Jak proves to be too much for Kor and Kor dies in their final battle. The kid is then sent back in time, creating the time loop, so that he might come back and do what he did as an adult.
Either that, or Naughty Dog really didn't think their time travel through very well.
Thanks for sharing all that, enjoyed reading! And yes, ND and their time travel, they really nailed that one...
Kor definitely does not have the power to create his own universes...
Create a universe as in altering the past and creating a new future.
This is what I think about what Samos says at the beginning of Jak 2, "So this is how it happened." He doesn't say it because he "forgets" so to speak. He says it because he now realizes that this is how himself and older Jak come to arrive in Haven City. I'm sure when he was younger, before himself and young Jak left to the past he always questioned how/when his old self and older Jak arrived in Haven City. That's my opinion on why he said it anyways.
Good way to put it!
Jak 2 follows the Novac Self Consistency principle. You can’t change anything because it’s already happened. Jak simply used time travel to be able to occupy two spaces at once. His younger self was able to open the tomb and the last precursor egg while his older darker self was able to provide the child self the protection he needed.
I think the Kor in the beginning is the same one you meet in the future just about 18 or so years younger. and I think he was trying to chase Jak and Samos through the time gate the first time they went back to the past but ended up in the time gate we see in the intro cut scene.
And then when you ran into him he gets flown back somewhere in Time
the thing is it still makes no sense because kor gets killed by future jak and then he sends young jak and young samos back into the past,so kor appearing in the rift gate when jak later opens the rift gate alive wouldn't make sense.
Omg thank you!
My brain might be boggling abit but the only way i can see Jak being Mar and not just named after him (If thats what they want to go for) is:
1) Everything takes place from J1 to J3. Jak sends his young self back to the past as it originally is suppose to happen.
2) Since meeting his older self (Meaning that this meeting of young and old Jak had a lasting effect on them both) Young Jak actually remembers alot more of what happens in the future.
3) This Young Jak now keeps his original name (Mar) and decides that because he now knows more about what is to come he decides this time to not go back to the past (Pre maturely like ending of J1 or when he is ready as an older Jak) and prepares for the future events.
4) Young Jak now is able to prepare, train, and build Haven City/The Shield and much more and make the legendary name for himself in the future.
You can tie it back in as not a branching path/Alt reality but as Younger Jak setting the foundation for the future without unraveling time itself since we clearly see that you can have multiple of someone from different times in one place.
Doesn't break any Time laws the game places (from what i can understand) and effectively establishes Jak as Mar.
Interesting way of putting it!
“You can not hide from me boy”****** annoyed me lol
Its funny but Everytime I go back and replay the 3 games I imagine Im just playing through another time loop and everytime I beat jak 2 Im setting the stage for yet eventually another playthrough! :D
Heheh :P
Kor lives in the rift, jak opens it up and releases him, jak and the others get sent into the future trough the rift, and kills kor in the future.
After that young jak gets sent to the past to start the cycle again.
We can say Kor was looking for Mar who was escaping through time, I will talk about Mar soon. And yes, you summed it up pretty well.
I always thought Jak and Kiera activating the Rift Gate in the past allowed Kor to go back in time and spread the metalheads to destroy Sandover Village and the old world forcing Mar to build Haven city to hold back the metalheads.
High possibility the attack started like that.
I would make a really long comment explaining my own thoughts but I don't think it'll matter though vtnvivi would be interested in it
I read comments, so go on :)
@@VtnVivi so Mar pre rift fring and Jak is post rift ring.
Damos works as a servant for Jak who is Mar at this point, Jak gives damos leadership over the city. wile in the city damos has Mar, naming his son after his associate. praxis later boots him out into the waste land, thinking he's not strong enough to deal with the medal heads. damos makes a new city called spargus. damos before leaving hides his son, in this organization called the underground. the medal heads attack dead town, which they over ran because praxis pulled back into the city. in a attempt for revenge he attack's the medal head nest, and fails. before leaving kor strikes a deal with praxis, if he gives him shipments of eco then kor would lower his attack's on the city. (my theory is that kor was kor before then got corrupted by the dark makers he then goes on to experiment with dark eco eventualy making the medal heads which would probably be why they look so much like dark makers so for the entire time Mar/Jak was building the city he was making the medal head army)
At this point praxis tries to find other ways of destroying the medal heads, so he starts the dark warrior program. a wile goes by and Jak is captured. Jak is experimented on for 2 years, but because of his special gift with controlling ecos he doesn't die but looses his ability or at least most of it. daxter breaks him out and they join the underground, with kor (in disguise) who has Mar. Jak then finds an oricol (a precursor) to help him control his powers that he got from the experiments. Jak then becomes mercenary with the help of krew and sig, who is damos's eyes and ears in haven city. Jak finds samos's hut and realizes he is in the future, samos is the leader of the underground but it's him in the past. Jak find Kira as well who is remaking the machine that they used to get there, but she needs 3 artifacts to finish it. Jak later finds Mar/jaks tomb, which they then get access to the precursor stone, praxis then steals the stone and makes a bomb (2) as well as arresting jaks friends. Jak breaks them out, and finds his samos. then kor gets Jak to destroy the eco sheild, framing it as a drill site for eco. Jak finds 2 of the artifacts for Kira. then finds out that the stone will destroy everything if cracked. krew constructs the bombs and throws one in the latest shipment of eco, Jak destroys the bomb killing krew. Jak then heads over to praxis who has the other bomb, kor confronts Jak and praxis who reveals himself to be the medal head leader. kor kills praxis, and Jak and daxter steal the stone. they then use the stone to power up the device that Jak/Mar built, and head into the nest. kor tells jak that Mar is him and that he needs him to open the precursor stone, because Jak is tainted and Mar isn't. after a fight with kor Jak finds the final artifact for Kira, the rift ring and send Mar and "new" samos through the portal. Mar then goes through the events of Jak and daxter, and then finds the rift ring. Kira sets up the ring and kor appears through it saying "you cannot his from me boy", Mar in a attempt to save everyone he goes through the ring and kor follows him. Jak then gets captured, by praxis and is experimented on for 2 years. {repeat}.
I would go into Jak 3 but for the sake of my thumbs it's probably up for later
my comment was heard. its about time you explain this.
When did you make that comment? Must've been a looonnngg time ago :P
VTNVIVI wait sorry. commented too soon. it was about the bootstrap paradox
Ooohhhhh!!
love jak and Dexter I grew up with these games and I have the collection
Nice!
Jak 2 reminds me of samurai jack
Oh!
Jak 2 reminds me of jack nicholson
Wasn't it said somewhere that Kor and his army have chased Mar through time and space to get the last Precursor egg?
Onin probably told the baron where jak would spawn and why jak would cause the metalheads to overrun the city. Baron tried to experiment with Jak in an attempt to make a weapon that will fight against Kor. Ashlin probably knew onin through torn and told the baron about Jak's arrival from the past. If you really think about it the baron actually prevented a loop in time through onin thus pumping jak with dark eco was necessary to prevent Kor from accessing the precursor stone at an early point in time. Because if the Metalhead leader found jak after the rift gate he would've still activated the stone.
Interesting take!
0:49
^ Exactly👏🏼
The future where shoes still don't exist.
i think ive gone crossed eyed thinking of this duuuuuuhhhhhhh
Haha XD
If anything I feel more confused...
Sowwy.
This honestly don't confuse me khor came from the past but at some point went to the futer (I butchered that I know) and found sand over village and changed the past at this point the cycle has already started.
Shit! I was late for a Vivi video!
oh nooo!!!!!
I got to get back to finish the games or at least watching the cutscenes. Jak 2 was hard but interesting. Must be a pretty big Paradox to count on going back and time in the future and past.
Good thing theories like that don't require a lot of math. I suck at math.
It's a time loop that keeps repeating itself . If the ones destined change that, it will cause a paradox.
Why on earth is time travel so confusing and why on earth am i watching this for like the 10th time
It is confusing :)
It's interesting if Jak is Mar, because it would mean that he'd spend his later years in life, still in the past, setting up relics foundations and devices that he'd know would be broken by his younger self, or put through turmoil and peril. It's like making something you know will be destroyed.
got to get back back to the past jak
What if the essence of the precursor stone is inside Jak that's why the kor we saw came out of the rift saying "you can't hide from me boy" maybe when when young Jak touched the stone some of it's energy went in him which is why Jak can channel so much Eco without any harmful side effects well sort of. That's my explanation.
I think Jak 4 at this point should just be a game where Samos or pecker or maybe even Daxter basically just narrate an answer all the Q and A's fans of had
I have a tough question. Hypothetically speaking. What would happen if on one of the many repeating loops that Jak knew enough to not open the gate to let the metal heads destroy the world and stayed in the past? What would happen?
Hmm....
Hmmmm indeed
So would there be 2 hearts of mar in haven city and 2 precursor artifacts during Jak 2? I mean I doubt they were destroyed in that crash. Meaning there’s only 1 of them each during Jak 3 and Jak X.
Meaning Jak could possibly go back in time again, right? He could become Mar
an easy way of putting it is jak is born a number of years before the events of jak 2 then travels back in time in jak 2 to a number of years before jak 1 takes place and grows up to discover the time machine then travels into the future to the time of jak 2 and defeats Kor and the time travel stops there. There is no local time loop for jak only that he experiences the events of jak 2 twice in his lifetime.
Jak does beat Kor and yes it ends there. But, young Jak will re-experience it all.
hey cool its not very often the uploader replies to me. The main point was we see it as a loop but from jak's perspective he just sees the same events twice in his life(first as young jak then later as big jak) and thus if we take it from his point of view its easier to comprehend.
Makes a lot of sense.
I'm really happy you think so :D
I mean you explained it pretty well. One thing I love doing when I'm playing a game or watching a movie is having the wiki open so I can read on the lore. Jak and Daxter is no exception.
All brain cells intact! None damaged!
Do you have a video about Jak's uncle in Sandover Village? It's kinda weird to think of him as Damas' brother.
Not yet :P
That picture of the time loop would be kinda confusing to someone who doesn't understand the timeline. It appears that you have 2 possible timelines, one where everything CONSTANTLY repeats, and one where it branches off to Jak 3. i would use a spiral, starting where Jak is born in Haven, sent to the past, grows up, sent to the future, defeats Kor, sends young self to the past, THEN branches off.
Yeah my representation is probably not the best heheh. All I see is a constant loop with a part branching off like you said.
Meh, still a great video to help explain the confusing nature of time travel to people who are un-aware of the Jak timeline, unlike us pros *Fistbumb*