Can confirm the barrel section is basically a video game level. The LEGO Hobbit game had it and they literally didn't have to change ANYTHING to make it be amongst the top 3 levels in that game.
@@GritterTheBuckethead couldn't tell, I played it cause it was free on steam and I figured I might as well. Haven't played LEGO LotR. I agree it was a bit mid overall.
So a little detail about the drunken elves that is explicitly stated in the books but that the movie doesn't clearly mention is that elves *can* get drunk, but because of their physiology it is very difficult for them to get drunk. The wine that the wood elves have is from Laketown, which is their primary trade good with the elves. The wine they make is of a *particular* strength. Far stronger than almost any other alcoholic beverage in Middle Earth. This is because only the strongest of alcohol can actually get an elf drunk. Fast forward to the drinking contest with Gimli and we suddenly have some excellent context that makes the whole scenario hilariously ironic. Not only was Legolas quite familiar with alcohol and being drunk, he knew full well that the mead they were drinking in Rohan wasn't even close to strong enough to get him drunk. He pretended to be ignorant and led Gimli on, knowing full well the dwarf stood absolutely no chance of beating him.
@@koreancowboy42 In the book, the men of Laketown make the wine, and the Elven master of wine's job is to make sure that the wine is of good quality. Presumably the master of wine switches vendors based on price and quality.
@@koreancowboy42 Yes, the wine is indeed from Laketown. Now, I'm not certain if they make it there or if they trade for it and then pass it one to Thurandil, but the way their trade deal works is the men of Laketown trade barrels of wine up the river and the wood elves send the empty barrels back to be refilled.
There is no supernatural property on the wine. It is just stronger wine than average. The drinking game between Gimli and Legolas and the latter basically not knowing what being drunk is, is an invention from PJ. This invention is particularly baffling because The Hobbit has these guards being drunk in the books, however, it was also cut from the theatrical edition which was a good move. Elves are physiologically identical to Men, they're of the same species as Tolkien stated. That's why they can progeny together. The difference between Elves and Men is spiritual, and in this world it is that spiritual difference that causes Men to age and Elves to be immortal. That's why despite all their technology, the Numenorians could not abate old age. Overall, I find odd that the author of the video hasn't read the book or listened to the audiobook, but has spent multiple times the time to review these movies and edit these videos.
The real reason Radagast accompanied Gandalf to the tomb was so that we could have a co-op character for the level in the video game LEGO The Hobbit. I also find it really funny that you point out how videogame-like a lot of the action setpieces are because the adaptations of those scenes for the LEGO game made for very entertaining levels.
Also, it's due to the 80s and 90s kids now working on these productions. We grew up with video games, and most people do not analyze and unlearn tropes. They choose the rule of cool instead of "make it believable and then spice it up". They use anime logic and cgi instead of a prop master's diagrams of how to make a setpiece work. We grew up with Sonic, Assassin's Creed, God of War, Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy and Banjo Kazooie and the Prequels and the writers working now are using that turn style/ move set flashiness in their diagramming and choreography. Their WoW and LoL hours are seeping into their work...
@@Undomaranel I see nothing inherently wrong with bit of magical realism in a film, especially if it's supposed to be an action romp, where excitement factor and power fantasy are kind of the point. As I see it, that only becomes a problem with these films, because A) on several occations it's done in a manner, that blatantly clashes with the more comparably serious tone set up by the Lord of the Rings trilogy, which these films are supposed to work as an expansion to, and B) they more often than not fail to establish characters' vulnerability in the face of threats they'd face; something any functional video game with some comparable stuff in it generally achieves by having a health system and a fail state for neglecting to avoid getting hurt.
@@jonahfalcon1970 Sure, but outside of some in-universe limited time and/or resource power up modes ala Devil Trigger, those are basically only available via cheating and not the intended (initial) experience with a game.
Considering how popular 3D was at the time and how every major film company used to make 3D rides of their franchises, I’m willing to bet this was for some theme park 3D ride. So many worthless, stupid action sequences…
I don't think it was intended like that. The reason Gandalf chose Bilbo is because Smaug wouldn't have dealt with hobbits before. If a dwarf, human or elf tried to sneak into Erebor Smaug would have killed them immediately whereas with Bilbo he was genuinely curious
@@HECKproductions dragons are petty and ego filled creatures.. not so lazy that they would avoid traveling to complete a vendetta.. they like doing shit like that...
This is a minor nit pick but: When Azog talks to Sauron and then demands and shouts at him, that scene makes no sense since Sauron would never allow an Orc to speak too him like that at all and would kill him to be an example to the others. Nor would an Orc even one like azog ever have the willpower to do that to Sauron.
Exactly! Sauron literally made the orcs worship him as a god and forbade the use of his name. They were terrified of him and any orc speaking to him like that would have been made an example of. Azog would have come before Sauron crawling.
@@JRAndrach Quite true, it was forbidden to speak his name, Aragorn even states this as so during Two towers when they're pursuing the Uruk raiders who attacked the Fellowship.
You’re absolutely right. It’s also ridiculous he mentions Thorin as if Sauron would even know or care who that is in comparison to his grand plans. Just reduces the scale of Sauron’s significant evil in my opinion.
35:48 Safety engineer here. The reason you may want to send the lightest first is because (in layman's terms) the rate to which an object is weakened by being subjected to weight is usually nonlinear. The dwarves, being metal-workers, very likely have some intuitive grasp of this fact. For example, subjecting a metal frame to 2000 lbs could weaken the frame as much as subjecting it to 1000 lbs, 16 times. So if Bombur weighs twice as much as the others, the vines could very well be weakened more by his going across first than by all 13 of the others going across first. Moreover, if the vines do break under Bombur's weight, then he dies and nobody gets across. It is entirely believable to me that the dwarves would want to cross in ascending order of weight.
I agree with you, but in the movie, they clearly use Bilbo as a test subject, because after him they all go at the same time. It would be more logical to go 1 at a time, in ascending weight order, which they clearly do not do
@@Wobmiar Well, then ignore the bit that gives any credit to the dwarves' intelligence. Regardless, Random made the categorical assertion that the heaviest should be sent across first. That is still incorrect for the reasons outlined above, essentially the same reason you can put a 1 lb. coffee mug on a table 10,000 times without issue but you can't put a 10,000 lb. elephant on a table one time.
@@Smokey420Greenleaf yes, a Hollywood film adaptation of a book written by the same author of three other books that were made into critically acclaimed film adaptations a decade earlier is probably going to make more money than a RUclipsr with under 20k subscribers, talking about said film a decade later when it's out of the mainstream consciousness - that's a very astute obsersvation. Has absolutely no bearing on the quality of the video though, which I would argue has a better script than any of the Hobbit movies. Ultimately, I fail to see the point of your comment.
@@cranberryrosebud my point is simple, if this dude knew half the shit he thinks he does, he would, and should be producing these movies rather than producing trash youtube content. the fact that he's not clearly indicates he doesn't know shit. also, for all his bitching about how lazy and un-creative other content creators are, dude uses badly drawn cartoon characters from Disney movies to illustrate his points. kinda the pot calling the kettle black.
@@Smokey420Greenleaf because money is more important then a good movie and you will call any garbage good just because it made a lot of money... people like you are the reason why movies are getting worse and worse...
2:04:19 I legit thought the wilhelm scream was an edit from this video and not actually in the movie (i had not seen any of the extended cut from this trilogy) so to hear you explain that the wilhelm scream was actually there IN THE MOVIE made me laugh hysterically
Smaug refers to Thorin as "Oakenshield" despite the fact that Thorin was only given this name *after* the exile of the Dwarves from Erebor. Did someone sneak into Smaug's lair and tell him about Thorin's exploits and new nickname?
If he is in contact with Sauron and/or his forces they may have informed him of likely visitors or even just updated him on his old enemies. A stretch but if all we can do is stretch then stretch we must
The answer to that question is fairly simple. In fact it's the same answer as to how Smaug knows of the wine barrel trade between Esgaroth, Rhovanion and the Woodlands Realm : he hasn't come out of Erebor for - in both the book and the movies - ONLY 60 years whilst the sack of Erebor happened in 2770 3A. The action takes place in 2940 3A so it has been 170 years since said sack, which means Smaug used to go out of the mountain for 110 years and, as it happens, the Battle of Azanulbizar where Thorin acquired his nickname took place in the 2790s IIRC. It also happens that this battle is legendary within universe and that Thorin II Oakenshield is the current king of Durin's Folk, which implies he's likely very famous. Smaug has also been portrayed as someone who would chat with its victims before burning them to ashes so it's fairly reasonable to assume he had at least a few conversations in the aforementionned 80 years during which he used to go out of Erebor. Plus Thorin is one of Smaug's sworn enemy therefore him incuring about Thorin's situation makes perfect sense. To put it in perpective, in real life history, there were muslim scholars of Transoxiana who had heard of Richard I, known as Lionheart, and they were aware of its nickname although given the state of the Seljuk sultanate at this time, they themself likely weren't very concerned about the Lionheart's activities in Palestine. Anyway, pretty long comment to say that this irrelevant detail isn't actually far-fetched.
If there are talking birds in Erebor, there might be talking bats sharing news with Smaug. Smaug somehow heard of Erebors wealth while living in the northern wastes. So he must be able to get gossip somewhere.
Bilbo’s conversation with Smaug suffers because of how the structure supporting it was altered. In the book, Bilbo was hoping to find the Dragon’s weakness; Smaug wanted to kill Bilbo, but couldn’t find him because Bilbo never took off the Ring. So each kept the other talking in the hopes they’d slip up (as they each eventually did). In _The Desolation of Smaug,_ Bilbo is looking for the Arkenstone instead, so he keeps Smaug talking to distract him while he searches. That’s functional enough; but what is Smaug getting out of his chat with Bilbo? This time the Hobbit’s NOT wearing the Ring. He’s standing right there; nothing to stop Smaug from just stepping on him. Perhaps the Dragon wanted information, but in that case why not just torture it out of him right quick? He’s a 150 foot-long flying theropod with a built-in flamethrower: plenty of different options he could use to make Bilbo very uncomfortable! Maybe Smaug was just bored and welcomed the company for a change.
It's heavily implied in the movie that the dragon loves to talk and he especially loves the mystery and intrigue of Bilbo. It's basically a game to him and fits in perfectly with how he is portrayed in the movies. He doesn't consider himself a big dumb scary animal, he considers himself an intelligent and sharp 'special' being.
It's funny how the movie has Bilbo lose the ring during the spider fight to depower him even though in the books the only reason they all live is because Bilbo is invisible and thus able to fight the spiders which makes perfect sense in this situation as none of the dwarfs had their weapons anymore. It also helped that in the books there was no mind altering trippy quality to mirkwood they all just kinda fell to despair after weeks of being lost and ran around the woods chasing lights until they were captured.
it's more subtle than the film, though there is absolutely a magical component to the forest, the river for example is magical in the book, likewise they continuously run into things to entice them in the forest but this seems to have been a magical mirage effect, as soon as they leave the path and chase for instance an apparent revelling party of elves it disappears and they are then lost.
Funny thing is that in the books Elrond was world renowned one-of-a-kind healer thanks to his Ring of Power which amplified his magic. So when Frodo was delivered to him he uses Sauron's craftsmanship to remove Sauron's curse. I honestly doubt any elven mage at Thranduil's disposal could heal Kili of morgul poison. Looks like someone gave Bolg a cheap fake.
@@theeffete3396 It wasn't made by Sauron, but it and the other two elven Rings of Power were grafted by Celebrimbor using the knowledge and skills he'd acquired from working together with Sauron, so it was made using what was originally Sauron's craft. Hence why the One Ring still holds power over the elven Rings, even if Sauron himself never touched them, rendering them not safe to use as long as Sauron had the One.
It's also a good way of cataloging character growth and regression, along with being a good way to keep track of when someone is acting out of character to a bad or even egregious degree. So I have to give Random Film Talk kudos for it, I've never done it myself or seen any other reviewer do it like this before.
I am absolutely astounded that the films cut one of the most important elements of the book: Bilbo is the very first person to notice Smaug's weak spot, and it is his report to the Dwarves of this weakness that the Thrush then passes on to Bard, enabling Bard to kill Smaug. So Bilbo is - via a domino effect - directly responsible for Smaug's death (not too dissimilar to how Frodo - via domino effect - is directly responsible for the Ring's destruction despite being mentally unable to literally release it from his hand). In the films, Bilbo never tells the Dwarves about Smaug's weak spot, and the thrush does nothing. So Bilbo's role in Smaug's demise is completely eliminated. Ridiculous.
Yeah of all the infuriating changes or deletions they made, leaving out the thrush and Smaugs weak spot was probably the most upsetting. Go back and watch the cartoon from the 70s, maybe I'm blinded by childhood nostalgia but at least they stick to the books
I think you might misunderstand how 'directly' and 'indirectly' are generally used... Generally if you are the last domino before something happens you are generally the person that is directly responsible for that thing. All the other domino's before that are indirectly responsible. For instance, in your example, the Bards ancestors that knocked off the scale from Smaug is directly responsible for its death. Bard could not kill Smaug like he did without that happening. But using it like that is a bit impractical because the final domino is the only one that truly matters.
Just as an aside to where some of these extra scenes came from, Tolkien had whole outlines describing what Gandalf was doing and planning but kept those to the Appendixes and Unfinished Tales (and other notes) because he knew that they were unimportant to the stories he was telling but he wanted every detail to have an explanation for those who were curious (mainly himself being curious). All the scenes with Radagast and the rest of the council were scenes that would have happened in the lore but condensed from a century down to a year to fit in the movie. Radagast who was living in Mirkwood investigated its corruption as it was beginning and tracked the source to Dul-Guldur a century before the events of the Hobbit. He then went to Gandalf for backup and Gandalf investigated further going into Dul-Guldur and finding Thrain 91 years before the Hobbit. Gandalf learns of Sauron and some of his plans and escapes (not captured like in the movie) and reports his findings. Saruman is unwilling to do anything so Gandalf does more investigating and eventually gets Saruman to call a council a decade before the Hobbit and is not a random meeting at Rivendell when the Dwarves are passing through. At the counsel in the books it is decided that they will drive Sauron from Dul-Guldur and a time is set for the attack one decade later and all members go to prepare forces. Gandalf also insists on dealing with Smaug as he had discovered Sauron intended to use Smaug but everyone else just wanted to let sleeping Dragons lie, even so he convinced them to let him come up with and execute a plan on his own. Eventually when nothing was coming to him and time was running short he decided to go to the Shire for a rest before setting out for Mirkwood the next year hoping something would come to him when Thorin found Gandalf in Bree and the quest for the Lonely Mountain was planned. Gandalf agreed to accompany them to Mirkwood but he had to be there for the assault or else he was afraid Saruman would call it off. So in the books he leaves to go fight Sauron intending to return to the Dwarves when he is done. While a good story could be told from this outline the condensing of time led to some wild teleporting and make Gandalf's plan unclear since he no longer has all the information at the beginning of the story. Azog in the lore fought a war with the Dwarves between when Smaug cast them out of Erabor and the Hobbit. He was eventually slain in the battle depicted in the movies not by Thorin but by Dain. In the books Bolg was the one tasked with taking Erabor after Smaug was defeated, and in the final movie it should have been him who Thorin fought at the end. Movies just had a weird mix of Azog and Bolg for reasons I do not understand. If they wanted an antagonist the whole way through they could have used Bolg and played up the goblin's need for revenge after killing their King. Azog seemed like a stretch and only added a bland villan. Tariel was added due to a studio mandate for more women and a romance subplot, and has no inspiration from Tolkien's lore. Anyway just a summary of where the Bloat came from in case anyone was curious.
In the novel, Bard mentions how he has "always retrieved" the black arrow, implying he's used it many times before and may well have missed with it too.
In the cartoon version of the Hobbit, it's just a regular arrow albeit one that was nicely made. Pretty much anyone could have killed Smaug as long as they knew about the bare spot on his body.
Yes, the Black Arrow was a ballista bolt only in the Peter Jackson films. Though even in the book, Bard suggests that the arrow is believed to have come "from the forges of the true king under the Mountain" (the dwarves).
Gandalf seeing the ring would've not broken LOTR. At the beginning of LOTR (both movies and books), Gandalf does know about Bilbo's ring. He just believed it to be merely one of the lesser rings of power. On top of that, the ring at this point in time was sort of sleeping. Granting some powers, yes, but with Sauron not yet reincarned, not operating at full strength. Gandalf would've not being able to detect it for what it was. Bilbo feeling its influence instead breaks the movie continuity a ton more. How is he already feeling corruption now and at the same time capable of holding up against its corruption with almost no lasting effect for 60 years until the beginning of LOTR?
Good answer. Also considering how much Gandalf was scared of the Balrog, I hardly doubt he could face Sauron without having an heart attack in this situation. 😂 Bilbo seems incredibly strong since he was able to keep the ring for so many years, so it's impossible for him to feel so weak at this point. This trilogy is very chaotic.
Also, at this point Gandalf could believe that Bilbo has found a lesser ring (not one of the 20 Rings of Power), one of those that were made while the Elves of Eregion were still perfecting their ring-craft.
@@krabkrabby The entire point of Gandalf having been sent to Middle-Earth was entirely *because* he was way too fucking scared to even go near Sauron much less actually challenge him. It's the literal reason WHY he was chosen to guide Middle-Earth's defense
Gandalf actually couldn't sense the Ring. The only time he even began to suspect Bilbo's ring was the One Ring was when he went to touch it and even then he went to Gondor and began poking around, hoping to find some paper trail of the Ring, and that's when he found Isildur's personal writings about what happened
I think it's pretty clear the writers exaggerated the Ring's effect on Bilbo just to communicate to the audience that it is an Evil Ring - since there is no actual plot point or character development related to it's corruption in the movies. I'm willing to accept that as "artistic liberty" - I would've been far more bothered, if the plot of the movie actually revolved around the Ring corrupting Bilbo, or in some other way was more than just a passing acknowledgement that this is an Evil Ring.
You know what's not fair? Arwen actually WAS mentioned in The Hobbit, and yet she wasn't in Rivendell, while Legolas wasn't mentioned in any way and he gets to be in the movies!!
When is Arwen mentioned in The Hobbit book? I don’t recall that. The bigger question, though, is why in neither the book nor the films do Bilbo and the Dwarves come across a young human boy named Estel in Rivendell, given that Elrond is supposed to be fostering Aragorn at this point.
@@12classics39 I don't think Tolkien had invented the character of Aragorn when he wrote the Hobbit, for starters. As to the movie, it's not really relevant to the plot, and the only reason to include such a thing would be sheer, undisguised fanservice.
My biggest gripe when I saw this was the morgul shaft. Why couldn’t it have just been a poisoned? Same thing would’ve happened. My other problems were Bofur over sleeping & getting left behind & Oin not knowing what kingsfoil is for. He’s a healer for Valar’s sake!
I'm pretty sure Oin knew what Kingsfoil was. He was going to use it himself, he just didn't have magical elvish medicine that somehow makes it into a wonder-cure. The entire population of Laketown, on the other hand.... "Kingsfoil? We feed it to the pigs"
Oin not knowing what kingsfoil is fits in with the lore as it was bought over by the numenoreans and all but the dunedain and the elves had no idea of its healing properties even the healers in the the houses of healing had no idea of its properties
@@BourneColdBlooded Really? I borrowed the trilogy (didn’t finish before having to return it). Is it in there or the appendices? Or will I have to read The Silmarillion?
@@annegrey6447 yer its in chapter 8 return of the king i think, the houses of healing aragorn asks the healers for athelas/kingsfoil and they tell him they do not store it because they did not know of any great healing properties
2:44 in the actual story, Azog can speak Black Speech and Dwarfish, showing he’s probably quite smart. When Thror and Nar came to Moria, Thror ventured in alone and was killed either by Azog or his Orcs. Azog then mocked Nar, calling him a ‘beggar-beard’ and basically calls dwarves homeless tramps, and then tossed Thror’s ‘weregild’ by tossing Nar a sack of worthless sack of coins. On Thror’s head he had his name carved in runes, and proclaimed himself the king under the mountain. He’s practically goading on the Dwarves to attack him, ‘come and have a go if you think you’re hard enough’. He never swore an oath to end the line of Durin, unless he did it during the war. So Azog is shown to be intelligent, learned, literate in Dwarfish and then presumably Black Speech, and knowledgeable of Dwarven culture and history. What they could’ve done is go over the entire history of the Dwarves in the prologue, wherein they could’ve included that scene. To do it justice it seems like it’d take 20-30 minutes but if Friday The 13th can have one of those and keep it engaging, so can Middle Earth.
Azog could write, was more or less an independet emperor of the Misty Mountains (at least during the 7 year war with the dwarves). But he did not speal dwarf language. This was a secret he could not have learned from evil dwarfs or from archives in Moria (dwarfs wrote in elvish). Azog spoke westron to Nar.
For fans of the books, it is hilariously jarring to see Thror die during the Battle of Azanulbizar, considering that in the books it was Azog's murder of Thror that caused that battle in the first place.
@@jonahfalcon1970 Not in _The Hobbit,_ but he DOES speak in the appendices to _The Return of the King._ He could communicate with Thror's aide, so he was definitely able to speak some other language besides Black Speech. It's very unlikely he spoke Khuzdul, though; the Dwarves were very secretive with their language. Azog was probably speaking Westron.
Normally I don't watch long analysis videos, like your cliff notes regarding characters in previous videos are the real deal for some analysis videos, but you manage to mix criticism with humor pretty nicely.
Honestly hard agree, I'm really impressed. I think the format was ruined by sweaty neckbeards hell bent on turning everything into SJW content but this has none of [that] shit. Would love to hear this guys opinions on the star wars sequels, this format would be brilliant 👏
I'm an absolute sucker for movie deep analysis/lookbacks/retrospectives. I'm super happy to have found your content and channel and I LOVE that these are all over 2 hour videos. Absolute amazing work, keep it up!
This trilogy feels more like good DnD campaign to play, battle scenes are full of critical rolls, and some characters are really well written. This also explain why dwarfs act really weird sometimes, it is just bad roleplay.
This reminded me there was a time when you learned something good was coming and you would get excited to see it knowing it will be up to certain standarts and can't wait for it. Right in the nostalghia...
Once upon a time, that's how I felt waiting for new Star Wars movies. I still do feel that for Tarantino Movies though... Maybe the only filmmaker in Hollywood I give a darn about. Cheers from France guys! 🍻
The scenes of Bilbo and Smaug are by far and away the best scenes in the entire Hobbit movies. The ending of part 2, with his flying towards Laketown and saying “I am…DEATH” is so good. Just a shame the rest of the movies couldn’t live up to that high-water mark.
Except it's fucking annoying that Bilbo reveals himself. In the book, it's a guessing game between Bilbo and Smaug, with is a callback to the guessing game with Gollum, even before the edit Tolkien made (in which Gollum gives Bilbo the gift of the Ring). Smaug can hunt down and kill anything he sees. In addition, Smaug is confused by Bilbo's smell. That's a key part of the scene. I have no fucking idea why you'd have Smaug see Bilbo. But then again, Peter Jackson can't write and doesn't understand storytelling at all. As a director, he's a good cinematographer.
@@your.dark.lord. Oh no... dwarves... it's not like Smaug literally ate thousands of dwarves with only Thorin's dad and granddad escaping through a secret tunnel.
Yep. I meant in the film, the chase, thorin taunting him, that golden dwarf...it looked he left the mountain out of powerlessness because he couldn't catch them, they chased him out. Pius, Bilbo taking the ring out and survivimg. Therefore, zero danger .
@@jonahfalcon1970 Peter Jackson is a good writer and exceptional director... He did an exceptional job of directing the LotR and that required a large amount of trimming the fat from the writing. The Hobbit trilogy has issues but it's not terrible and the issues were mostly a result of studio tampering and/or the production problems.
I will say, gandalf and radagast arriving at the same time is properly explained in fellowship. Assuming gandalf sent radagast an estimation of when he’d be there….. They’re both wizards, so they’re never late, nor are they early, they arrive precisely when they mean to.
51:10 Why Thanduil wants those jewels so much is explained in a scene cut from the film. Those jewels belonged to his late wife and he asked the dwarves to put them in a necklace, but the dwarves charged triple the price of what had been agreed upon.. Honestly, I have no idea why they cut this from the film, as it explains Trhanduil's motivations very well and gives more depth to his character.
As far as I know , but i might be wrong that the symbol of an eye has been always a sigil of Souron in Tolkien's lore , even during the times of Morgoth . So I guess that it's reasonable for Gandalf to know this .
As for why bilbo talks the way he does with smaug. This is how you talk to dragons if you dont want to reveal your real name and because you dont want to make them angry by refusing to give your name. Dragons love riddling talk and love wasting time trying to understand it
@@jonahfalcon1970 Because dragons in Tolkien's universe are *especially* vain as fuck. Had Bilbo not revealed himself and continued to evade Smaug, he would end up hurting Smaug's pride and make an actual enemy of Smaug in that moment. By revealing himself, he is immediately de-escalating Smaug with an "Aha! You *did* find me" And immediately posing Smaug with the new question of "What in the actual fuck is that thing?" Which will keep Smaug distracted with wanting to know more about Bilbo rather than just outright murdering the fuck out of him. Only way to keep a dragon in LOTR from killing you is by basically convincing them that you are far more interesting to them alive
@andrewmeyer3599 No. Just no. Dragons are PRACTICAL in Tolkien's universe. They are vengeful and cruel. They are vain, yes, but they are extremely intelligent. If Bilbo revealed himself to Smaug in the book, it EXPLICITLY STATES that the dragon would have controlled Bilbo's mind. It even STATES that Bilbo was feeling a strong urge to reveal everything to Smaug. Had Bilbo revealed himself, he'd have spilled the beans on everything and Smaug would have EATEN him. Furthermore, everything Smaug sees, he will capture. He sees you, you're finished. The game he plays with Smaug is to distract him from the dwarves. Smaug isn't prideful (except for his gem coat), he just loves riddles. You may notice that the game Bilbo plays is actually a CALLBACK TO GOLLUM. Bilbo is using his brain to deal with threats, not Sting. Let me put this simply: Peter Jackson doesn't know Tolkien. He doesn't know how to write. He is a cinematographer, not a director. Stop watching the films and actually READ THE BOOKS.
"I suppose you got a fair price for that cup last night?" [Smaug] went on. "Come now, did you? Nothing at all! Well, that's just like [dwarves]. And I suppose they are skulking outside, and your job is to do all the dangerous work and get what you can when I'm not looking - for them? And you will get a fair share? Don't you believe it! If you get off alive, you will be lucky." Bilbo was now beginning to feel really uncomfortable. Whenever Smaug's roving eye, seeking for him in the shadows, flashed across him, he trembled, and an unaccountable desire seized hold of him to rush out and reveal himself and tell all the truth to Smaug. In fact he was in grievous danger of coming under the dragon-spell.
Smaug's being an idiot, vain dragon is Jackson's idea. The only time Smaug was vain was when Bilbo complimented his gem coat, revealing the single spot with no gem. Bilbo's flattery was to pique Smaug's curiosity. But make no mistake, Smaug was fully aware of Bilbo trying to flatter him. ‘You have nice manners for a thief and a liar, said the dragon.’ Does that sound like someone who is fooled by Bilbo's flattery?
In defense of the "send the lightest first". If you sent the lightest first, you have the biggest chance of getting as many people across as possible, until one is to heavy. That is, if you stick to one at a time. That said, great video, I really enjoy your thorough analysis.
@@delivererofdarknessshoguno1133 I think it would be better if just one died and the rest found another way than for half of them to die and the rest continue.
On the point where Bilbo could be more susceptible to the Ring is the fact he is not like other Hobbits. Hobbits are resistant to the ring because they lack ambiton and genuinly enjoy simple lives whereas Bilbo wants adventure and to interact with the world around him. Not saying the movie is good but this part can make sense when we take it in the context of Bilbo being different to other Hobbits. If we compare this to Frodo, Frodo thinks he wants adventure but we quickly find that he actually just wants his simple life back.
Another problem i have with the gold scene is that, implausible as that whole "melting statue" thing is, Smaug appears to be completely unhindered by this. I can appreciate that Smaug, being a magical dragon, can resist a large amount of heat. However, being coated in liquid metal (which presumably quickly cools) is absolutely going to have some effect on him. In the film, the gold appears to behave like hot paint. It scalds, and it sticks to Smaug's body in a thin layer. However, it never hardens, and it quickly falls away wgen he takes off towards Laketown. Real metal does not do this. Even if being drenched in molten metal did not directly harm Smaug, being covered in a quickly-hardening layer of heavy element would absolutely affect him. It would begin to seize his joints, fuse his eyes closed (or directly blind him), block his mouth and nostrils, and weigh him down immensely. He would absolutely not be able to fly afterwards, as his wings would be coated as if with plaster. His scales, in particular, would be a surface which the metal would adhere to strongly. I could have forgiven this if Smaug was depicted as shaking plates of gold off his body, as if he was emerging from a cocoon. However, we got nothing like that, and the entire "gold sequence" was blown off as empty spectacle.
Thranduil wants gems, not Mithril. He tells Thorin that he wants "white gems" that are in the mountain in exchange for aid. And the prologue scene shows us those gems which appear to have been offered to him as a gift by the king, then rescinded. That's not mithril in the chest. (Really, because of that slight Thorin shouldn't have been surprised when Thranduil turned away as Smaug attacked. Why should he help someone who treated him like dirt at an official meeting?) The gems shining like starlight would have been irresistable to the elves, so that's what he asked for in exchange. A small price to pay for an entire elven army to help defeat the dragon, really. Thorin seems to want help for free, or to offer to pay after the fact and then renege on the agreement. I suppose that tracks given some of the history. (On a deeper level, this is supposedly a reference to the necklace King Thingol commissioned the dwarves to make with the silmaril Beren and Luthien stole from Morgoth's crown. When Thingol went to collect the necklace, the dwarves refused to hand it over and Thingol killed some of them before being killed himself. Then the elves massacred the dwarves of that area, thus leading to the legendary distrust and hatred between dwarves and elves. Total mess.) EDIT: I was corrected in my recollection of events relating to the Nauglamir and Silmaril by some comments below. I've placed my misstatement of events in parentheses above. Thanks to John S for remembering the details better than me.
Thingol did not kill some of the dwarves, they murdered him for insulting them when they made their dumbest request in history demanding the Nauglamir and the Silmaril as payment for putting the Silmaril in the Nauglamir. They killed Thingol and tons of others before returining to Nogrod and then going to war with Menegroth killing almost all the Elves who lived there. Oropher and Thranduil escaped. Elves didn't massacre anybody nor start that conflict, like, at all.
@John S As far as I remember, the dwarves didn't want the nauglamir as payment. They made the necklace for Finrod Felagund as a symbol of friendship. But when Finrod died, Thingol came into the possession of the necklace thanks to Hurin. Sure, the dwarves actually wanted the silmaril, but they basically said "We made the necklace specifically for Felagund. He's dead and according to Dwarven laws, the ownership returns to us since we made the necklace." So it wasn't about payment but ownership.
@@johns1625 That's right! Forgive me for mis-remembering. I was pretty sure the Dwarves were all killed shortly after, but you're right, that didn't happen until after they'd sacked Menegroth and took the treasure from Doriath. I really need to revisit the book. I appreciate the correction for my faulty memory.
@@NoxAtlas Well, the fact remains they took the commission to place the silmaril into it and then refused to give it back. If they only wanted the Nauglamir they likely could have kept it so long as they returned the silmaril. They could have refused the commission in the first place, but didn't. I think the claim that they only wanted to adhere to dwarvish custom relating to ownership of dwarf-made things was only part of the issue and in the end it was just an excuse for them to claim both the Nauglamir and the silmaril together. They could claim a right of ownership of the Nauglamir, not to the Silmaril.
@@JRAndrach True and Thingol even pointed out that they used that ownership issue merely as an excuse because they only wanted the silmaril, not the necklace. Honestly, this part of the Silmarillion didn't really make sense to me and was perhaps the weakest part of the story. Like you said: the dwarves could have just kept silmaril and lock Thingol out if he wanted it back. There's no reason for them to accept the commission, go back with the nauglamir with the silmaril and then start an argument. The only explanations are that the curse of the silmarils make every non-worthy individual greedy and act completely irrational and illogical so they end up being killed or Tolkien didn't revise the version to fix this issue and his son didn't want to change it.
I've got to add that from a canon perspective, it's irritating that they went with the necromancer-raises-the-Witch-King plot, since long before this point in Middle Earth's history, the elf Glorfindel prophesied that the Witch King would not be killed by any man (the prophesy fulfilled when Merry and Eowyn kill him). Which means the flashback kings of Arthedain knew he wasn't dead when they buried him, so why wasn't he guarded?
It's particular levels of nonsense. The witch king could absolutely be killed (by anyone) if his magic sorcery was breached. The sword Merry uses to stab him is enchanted by the men of old Arnor. They knew they might meet him in battle (millennia earlier) and prepared for it by enchanting their weapons. It makes no sense that they could capture him, but not kill him, and contradicts things seen in the RotK movie. Just sloppy writing from a rushed production
Sauron doesn't actually need the ring to have a physical form. Sauron has a physical form in the LotR, he is just unwilling to leave Baradur because the last time he decided to fight on the front lines, things... didn't go so well. The "eye" on Baradur is a projection of Sauron's power he uses to observe his realm, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a physical form. This is party to be blamed on the fact that PJ's trilogy never shows the mutilated, but corporeal form of Sauron post 2nd Age. This film, much more than the previous, adds additional bloat to the original story which tends to not only cheapen the story with cheap action sequences and unnecessary tension building, but also makes the sections that were sourced from the original material make no sense due to the disrupted context the original story had set up(see: Beorn meeting the Dwarves, Azog's existence in general, etc.).
In the book Gollum outright states that he was tortured by Sauron and even that he is missing one finger (for obvious reasons) I don't even think that there is ever an outright description of the eye as something that is anything more than a metaphor for Sauron's ever-present authority and power.
@@delivererofdarknessshoguno1133 I think there may be an edition of one of the first edition books that had an eye on it, which was probably Jackson's inspiration.
I don't think Sauron has a corporeal form in the Jackson films. When Isildur cuts the ring off, we see Sauron disintegrate. He also only appears as a spirit in the Hobbit films. Plus, in behind the scenes footage for both trilogies, the writers say on multiple occasions that Sauron has lost his physical form and is now a disembodied spirit. So that's the movie lore. In the book it may be different, I haven't read it yet so I don't know.
I actually don't have a problem with Bilbo commenting that Mirkwood "looks sick." It effectively informs the audience that people who don't understand evil magic can still feel its effects. It also arguably implies that hobbits are uniquely good at discerning these things because of their good nature.
The weird thing is I think it's the ring that Sauron gave to Thráin II which is meant to have corrupted him and given him Dragon sickness, not the Arkenstone. So it's a bit of a weird tangent in the Hobbit film.
Sauron didn't give the Ring (one of the seven) to Thráin (Thráin would be at least 3000 years old, which no dwarf in the books reached even closely) But yes I always thought it was part of the Royal Bloodline to fall for Gold xD No seriously you make a good point, because the ring probably dialed the love of Gold, Dwarves have, up to eleven on Thráin and Thorin succumbed to the dragonsickness quite litterally as Smaug was on this pile of Gold for sixty years. I always understood it, that dragonsickness is the ultimate "upgrade" to the greed Thráin had.
It's kind of dumb they changed that considering all the other lame and cringy tangents they took to try and tie these films to LotR. It would have been cool to see Gandalf recall that to Bilbo and maybe add some uncertainty or curiousity to his new possession of the One Ring
The arkenstone didn't give them dragon sickness. It was the rings of power that helped bolster the dwarves greed which in turn became Dragon sickness. It mainly made them to be more greedy.
I think the book portrayed the 2 dwarves at a time shtick better. Beorn seemed a lot more interested in the story when reading it than the acting gave. Also imagined him a much burlier character.
1:59:50 "its undoubtedly a trap" The sad thing is you can tell they wanted this line because "sounds cool" at the expense of making any sense. Almost like Gandalf just became a reckless, over-confident, egotistical maniac who thinks he's so powerful he can walk directly into a waiting trap and nothing bad will happen. Or has a death wish. Neither of which are Gandalf's character. That line would fit better in a comically over-the-top action movie like the Expendables or Red. "But you can't ride a motorcycle directly into the waiting enemy ambush ahead, you'll die!" flicks cigarette "I'm sure I will." rides off anyway
It's funny how some problems come from places where they deviated from the books (everything was Azog, a lot of the more bombastic nonsense, new characters, etc.), and others come from places where the Hobbit films are slightly closer than the LOTR films were to the books (elves being able to get drunk, Sauron manifesting physically, etc.). Additionally, bookwise, Sauron/the Necromancer was still an unhoused spirit at this time, but by the time of LOTR, was able to take physical form. We know this because we are told by Aragorn that Gollum told him that Sauron tortured him personally, and had four fingers on his black hand.
I'd like to add my personal favourite scene that sends chills down my spine thinking about it. When Pippin touches the Palantir, he sees Sauron. To me it's mind blowing that out of the Fellowship, not Gandalf or Legolas wisest of beings and strong of will, but little Pippin is the one to see the Dark Lord himself. One of my favourite moments to picture every time I read it. For a long time I thought only he had seen Sauron, but now I remember Aragorn revealing himself, so I guess he likely saw the dark lord as well.
52:39 this is actually addressed in the book. Compared to the other elves, Thraduil is something of a coward by this point and his kingdom is not sustained by a ring like Lothlorien and Rivendell are, so he has to trade for resources, which is why he wants some of the treasure. They may have decided that his backstory was too much to include but I think it would have fit nicely thematically since it’s about past battles and (iirc) losing his father
The lightest person crossing the path first COULD HAVE made sense. You might want to do that in case lots of weight destroys the path for everyone else. Of course, this is COMPLETELY negated by all 13 dwarfs then trying to go simultaneously, with the heaviest one being further ahead of some of the lighter dwarfs. Really liked the video, by the way.
Fair play on the RUclips algorithm for pushing this. I like long formats and your style is very appealing. Funny, critical, fair and very personable. Look forward to seeing what else you cover
Ah yes... The movie when things really started to go completely south. Unexpected Journey certainly had a lot of problems, but I can't deny that it tried. Now this one... The color grading went from over saturated to make it more whimsical... to completely greyish and depressing. Fan service was shoved into our throats with Legolas' overwhelming presence, presence that was only warranted because of the introduction of the most pointless character in the entire 6 films aka Tauriel... Actually trying to fight Smaug because we need a climax no matter how non-sensical... Gandalf's side quest... Even without going into the intricacies that make or break a plot, the great lines are already looking pretty bad, and it only gets worse with the next one. EDIT : Let's see how Smaug was characterized in the book as opposed to this film. I am going by memory so this might not be 100% accurate, but 80% at worst. In the book, Bilbo descends in Erebor twice, the first time, he finds Smaug very much alive and sleeping, and he steals a single item of value from the treasure. This causes Smaug's deep slumber to shift towards a nightmare of him getting stolen from. He then descends a second time, I think with the express purpose of finding the Arkenstone, but this time Smaug is paying attention and notices Bilbo's presence thanks to his incredible sense of smell. Thus ensues the conversation between the two, because Smaug is curious enough to interact with Bilbo, especially since Bilbo is an entirely unknown entity to him, to the point he can't even see him and doesn't fully understand why. In this conversation, it's revealed to us that Smaug's chest area isn't naturally covered in invincible dragon scales, it's an artificial "armor", made from all the treasures he's been sleeping on, and it's imperfect enough that there's a clear weakness Bilbo notices, transmits to the dwarves, and then a bird who was listening transmits to Bard. The conversation ends with Bilbo fleeing in the tunnel he came from and narrowingly escaping death by dragon fire, Smaug also deduces he might be affiliated to Laketown because of his latest title being related to barrels, and we learn that he fears the lake because it's deep and cold enough that if he was injured and fell in it, he would actually be in danger of death. That's the one and only time we get Smaug's direct characterization. He then gets out of the mountain and tries to find the secret entrance, breathing dragon fire on several portions of the mountain, which forces the dwarves to lock themselves in the moutain. Having seemingly failed, Smaug then turns his attention to Laketown and destroys the city before being felled by Bard and all the archers he could muster to fight Smaug. Admittedly, there are several elements that reek of contrivance due to the book's more lighthearted and whimsical nature. But it's still vastly superior to the film mainly because Smaug never directly confronts our heroes, he's allowed to display his cunning personality once and then becomes a concealed looming threat until we learn that he was defeated, which comes as a shock to both the reader and the company which got out of the moutain 2 weeks after getting locked in. All the fighting non-sense and the story of his scales getting pierced (especially a single one), literally doesn't exist and it's far better off without it.
@@x52wolf12 Hard to say, I didn't pay attention at critics at the time, I'm merely speaking about what I believe to be the honest truth about this movie.
It would have been so much better if Bilbo had been able to trick Smaug into showing him where the Arkenstone was. It would make complete sense for a dragon, which covets expensive and incredible things, to know where they'd be in their collection. And Bilbo outwitting opponents is something that's already been reinforced throughout the story.
Found your channel after your first Hobbit video. Then preceded to binge your RoP series. I don’t sub to many channels but man you got me! Keep up the great work👍
Going to state again that there are loads of Fan edits that trim this trilogy down to one long movie. None are perfect but they tend to trim most of the cringe while keeping most of the good. Just about any edit that cuts Ladylas, Azog, and the white council entirely from the movie is better than the trilogy it came from. I would recommend the M4 edit to anyone wanting something close to the book. The Bilbo Baggins edit and the Ravenomics edit are also pretty good.
Even though Lee Pace did a fantastic job in my opinion, I still have absolutely no idea why they decided to turn the king into a douche and be so obsessed with some gems. There are parts of the movie that were directly taken from the book (Beorn scenes for instanse), but why on Earth wouldn't you do the same with the elves? Mirkwood elves are different from their kin in other places of Middle Earth and in Valinor, they have never seen the light of the Trees and they originally declined Orome's invitation to go to the Undying lands. They are closer to nature, much less civilized and more savage even, and in the book they are depicted closer to fairies from the English folklore. It was a perfect oppotrunity to show another elven faction and how different elves can be. Moreover, the king had to intention to deal with dwarves and their quest at all, he was simply pissed they crossed his borders uninvited and Thorin was cocky about that. I love the portrayal and the aethtetic in general, but the motivation is lame and seems to be a cheap rip-off of the story of Thingol and the dwarves from the Silmarillion (Tranduil is a Thingol's relative)
It is mostly said that sauron does have a physical form, he just never leaves his tower. In the book it is stated that gollum actually saw sauron when he was being tortured in barad dur. He mentions that he “has four black fingers on his terrible hand” which shows that his injury still stayed when he reformed physically, and he personally tortured gollum. He needs the ring because it has a large amount of his life force and power in it. Although he can reform physically already, he is severely weakened, and is afraid to leave his tower. If he had the ring he could probably walk freely, and control his army from where he was, and still control his eye to keep watch on everything happening all over the place. It also hold a a lot of his magical powers, which he uses to control his armies, so if he got the ring back his martial power would grow by a huge amount. Obviously it was also a huge source of weakness if destroyed. It tied his spirit to the physical world, with out the ring his spirit would not be able to reform and would be dispersed across all existence. In the book after the ring is destroyed Sauron’s spirit rises out of Mordor as a huge black cloud, he reaches out his hand towards the armies of Aragorn, but a great wind comes from the west and blows the cloud away into bits, and he is never able to reform in any way to even control one orc. He had already been “killed” a few times and gets weaker every time. If he never made the ring he would still a have a lot of power and probably have a few more “lives” per say
Love your channel man!!! It's really refreshing to see a RUclipsr commenting on movies not just by way of giving opinion but, perhaps even more by your handling the matter in an empirical, easily trackable manner. Props to your efforts for sure!!!
I hate you can reaaaallyy feel the studio interferance on this movies in general Forcing a trilogy, not giving Jackson time and also forcing the love triangle. Again been said many times the hobbit is the simplest book of them all and it kept it rather light hearted. Activly following the heroes journey schtick. This could have been very interesting if they gave Jackson the time because you can see some good things in these movies. It is just filled with useless padding and characters.
Its like this sweet spot of lame and endearing, especially when you compare it to.... it has heart at least, and this commentator give it some fair marks. But it be a lie if we said it was an improvement. Early 2010s may seem shallow and tacky, but it sure as shit wasnt woke authoritarianism. "This is whats good cinema now, disagree and ur racist"
Oh I agree wholeheartedly. 😅 As a colossal Tolkien fan, and generally a purist where it comes to film adaptations of books, these movies actually did offend me. And outrage me - and enrage me. I don't know which is greater my disappointment or my fury.
The Hobbit trilogy is fantastic if you condense it from 9 hours to 2/4 hours. That's what is so good about it. I have stopped seeing the 3 movies and now just see Fan Edits.
Damn, I have to close that night. I'm slightly hoping it'll be less than 2 hours long because then I think I can watch it in it's entirety. Super excited. The Rings of Power series retrospective was awesome.
the side door was mentioned as secret that would allow Bilbo to get in undetected. The front door would have lead you directly to the dragon. At least thats what i understood.
It’s the 4th of July holiday here and I am enjoying some down time which affords me the time to watch this amazing analysis *AGAIN.* Cheers RFT and thank you.
I, like so many others, have been looking forward to this for quite some time. Ironically I just finished my week long endevor of watching all of the extended edition Hobbit movies 2 days ago so this is really great timing ( It seems I missed your "upcoming" announcement ) so this is a nice bit of serendipity. Anyway thank you so much for taking the time to watch these movies, write your script and post this video on RUclips. I'm excited
The One Ring has something of its own will and a desire to be reunited with Sauron. It too can betray anyone else who wears it. That’s the best explanation I had for why Bilbo took off the Ring while talking to Smaug
Actually those gems of “starlight” are actually gems that were presumably brought over from beleriand by thranduil father or his wife’s father. They were given to the dwarves to be fashioned into a necklace for thranduil’s wife. But his wife was captured and killed in gundabad before it was completed. Thranduil went to retrieve them, but as we saw the dwarves requested more payment than previously agreed. Thranduil refused and thus his pit of anger was formed as he was so stricken with grief. @Random Film Talk
I’m only 55 minutes in, so perhaps you take note of this later on, but I don’t think Thranduil doesn’t care to preserve nature or Middle Earth, I think he’s in denial due to battle trauma. Remember, he was in the war that lead to the dead marshes, so he’s definitely traumatized and just trying to keep to himself, even if it’s detrimental. So that adds to some interesting aspects to his character layering
I was gonna say the same thing. His father and a huge number of the Greenwood elves died in that battle and he was there, so it absolutely makes sense that he would want to protect his people from war. The same goes for him turning back at the beginning of the first film. He was going to help the dwarves, but couldn't bring himself to lead his people into danger. So it's actually a big character moment when he gets involved in the battle of the five armies. They don't explore his PTSD in the films though, so he just comes across as a selfish douche :(
Seeing this in theaters even with the cool line the cliffhanger felt like such a blueball. At the time I was under the impression that Smaug would have a bigger role in the final movie since he was being hyped up as the big bad since the 1st movie. Instead killing Smaug felt rushed and tacked on like an afterthought and they needed to get it out of the way so the rest of the plot of the 3rd movie could take place. They should have had the razing of laketown/Smaug death at the end of this movie instead of at the beginning of 5 Armies.
Hello! I was thinking of a scenes where legolas appears to be unaware of orcs behind him. So in the first scene where he is saved by axe throw he stabs orc in front of him. At least to me it looks like he is struggling to remove his blade as orc is holding his hand/sword. That might imply that he is aware he is about to get hit in the back but can't do anything about it. Possibly out of pride pretends he doesnt notice he was saved coz how could he allow himself be saved by a dwarf. The 2nd situation when orc is about to shoot him in the back maybe he was well aware that Tauriel was there to help him just as later on she knew that legolas was following her. He is after all very fond of her skills ect. Anyway great vid too bad i was a bit late for premiere. Just wanted to add my little something that came to my mind as i was watching.
I noticed also that he did a spin around, noticed the orc behind him falling, continued said spin so he could draw and fire off another arrow at the next target, meaning he probably had some awareness of the situation, maybe just not how close he came to death till the last minute
Also also I agree that it appears the Orc in the front wraps up his arm by the wrist, preventing him from reacting to the one behind him, perhaps a dying attempt to keep him in place for a killing blow
when using rivers for cargo in the medieval period, you would sail down rivers in a barge, however, you would use a road and horses to go up river. rivers travel down hill. going DOWN, the power of the river, carries you, and your cargo. going UP however, if you tried to use a barge, you would be fighting the river the whole way. it can only be done in a very slow moving river. Amazon, Mississippi, lower nile. so the down the rapids/waterfalls in barrels, but then needing to use a road to travel up is normal. Canals are dug for mills. and these often have long flat areas, with horsepaths specifically built next to the canal, allowing horses to pull barges up and down.
Speaking of Thrain - he was completely removed from the theatrical version of the movie. I don't remember this sequnce and all and Thrain seems to have been cut during the post-production - in thetrical version the scene with Sauron features only Gandalf, no THrain there. So it seems they eventually arrived at the same conclusion as you regarding Thrain being involved. The whole sequence is still highly problematic, though.
The contradictory worldbuilding regarding what a necromancer is and if they even exist came from the writers of this trilogy trying to “improve” Tolkien’s writings, which usually doesn’t work too well, because normally the original writer is much better at writing than the people taking issue with the writing. In this particular case, Tolkien used the word necromancy or Necromancer as a more general term for dark magic and a practitioner of dark magic rather than the more traditional and specific definition of someone able to raise the dead. For him, Sauron was a Necromancer because he could turn himself into or summon various undead creatures. And he also could access the Shadow Realm. In this movie, the writers felt for some reason they needed to fix this and gave the Nazgul a backstory that has them being specifically raised from the dead. But it doesn’t really fit in with anything even in the Jackson’s LOTR trilogy. None of the Nazgul ever died and they did not have tombs. Their physical forms slowly wasted away, thanks to the Rings Sauron gave them, which probably happened before even the Last Alliance, considering they may have likely been Numenorean kings. And the Witchking was defeated by the men of the north. But he simply fled back to Mordor. And he actually accomplished his task, which was to topple the northern kingdom of Arnor. He wasn’t even at Dol Guldur with his master. He was down south, making trouble for Gondor and preparing for his master’s return to Mordor. I don’t think lore breaks are necessarily bad, but this one was ill-thought out and ended up making more problems than it supposedly solved. Like how did Radagast even see the wraith? Only a practitioner of dark magic or someone with a talisman that conferred that power onto the bearer, such as Frodo with the One Ring, could do that. And I have no idea where that tomb is supposed to be. The kingdom of Arnor encompassed the Shire. So either the Men of the North dragged the bodies of the Nazgul halfway across Middle Earth and over a mountain range to bury them near Beorn’s house for some weird reason or Gandalf went all the way back to the vicinity of the Shire. It could be the Barrow Downs. But that’s not what they call it and it’s not what it looks like. Also, the prophecy about no man being able to kill the chief Nazgul was uttered upon the Witchking’s defeat. I don’t know how anybody could say that if men had already killed him.
@@DIEGhostfish In the Hobbit, it is very clear that Gandalf cannot see Bilbo, which he would have been able to, if what you say is true, as he is a Maia. After death, the souls of men did not stay in Middle Earth. They left it, and it’s explicitly said that only Eru knows where they went. The Shadow Realm, on the other hand, was not a spiritual realm in the sense we think of it, but a prison for the Nazgul, created by the dark arts that none of the good guys would have dabbled in. Legolas could see the men Isildur cursed. But the Elves of Mirkwood could not see Bilbo with the One Ring on, indicating that the Shadow Realm was not a place that the souls of humans went to after death. Tom Bombadil was the only one confirmed to be able to see Frodo when he wore the One Ring. It can’t be explained because we don’t know what Tom Bombadil is, although it probably has to do with the fact that Tom was the antithesis of Sauron, a being who regarded power and control over others as a burden rather than being enticed by it. He is the only one in Middle Earth that can be said of, though.
You've done a great job with this analysis/review of these movies, it was both deep in content and entertaining. Hope to see some more good stuff like this in the future.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I fall asleep watching your videos sometimes, but like in a good way, as in you pointing out everything wrong with this shit and putting the writers in they're place definitely relaxes and mellows me out
51:50 so this is where Rings of Power got its plotline of contrasting the lifespan of dwarves with Elves for whom decades are nothing😂 (the Durin & Elrond contrived initial conflict with no consequences) And I made the mistake of thinking those showrunners could intelligently create an original plotpoint through judicious use of their brains & Tolkien's lore alone😂; they had help from the Desolation of Smaug. I can't wait for the Battle of the 5 armies to see how much Payne & McKay ripped off that as well😂. I also can't wait for Rings of Power season 2 to get more memberberries
51:07 Nope entirely invented by the movie. Now in the book Balin briefly explains when the Wood Elves treated them so harshly. If I recall correctly the quote goes something like this. “The feud between Elves and Dwarves goes back to the second Age. Elves are slow to forget and Dwarves slow to forgive.” In the Silmarillion we get a history of that feud and it had nothing to do with Mithril but the Simarils themselves. Mithril was never this Uber magic metal that was invented outside the books.
Another option: What if at the beginning Gandalf was the mastermind behind it all? Having failed to get Thrain to return to Erebor, Gandalf tracks down Thorin. Hires or puts spells on the men in the Prancing Pony to be threatening. Gandalf (knowing black speech) could have forged the black speech page with the bounty for Thorin on it... Can Thorin even read black speech? It could just be some old rorschach painting Gandalf had. ALL to convince Thorin to go back to Erebor.
Could work for a film 'adaptation' for sure. Very interesting and not like a major twist changing the movie utterly but twist enough to be engaging! It doesnt follow the books in anyway. But thats just the tolkien book fan in me complaining. It is an adaptation afterall.
Nah it would completely defeat the point of lord of the ring. The lord of the rings films came first of what happens after the hobbit and the hobbit films is what happens before lord of the rings.
WHY didn't the writers motivate the Beast from the very beginning with defying Azog? The whole "I hope there's no dwarves here" thing is so COMPLETELY unnecessary, it even muddies the water more. Not to mention, Beorn is a beastman, he probably could SMELL the unwashed dwarves from 2 miles away. Let's assume the plot unfolds the same way up until the dwarves come outta the house, Beorn loses it, takes a swing, Gandalf mentions "we need your help avoiding Azog", Beorn stops his axe inches from Thorin's face and asks "Azog?". Wouldn't that make more sense? I guess we could just cut the whole signal thing and the joke itself, having Beorn just attack the dwarves the moment he comes back to his house and Gandalf mentioning Azog right before he bifurcates any of the 13 halfwits.
Man, I've forgotten so much about these movies. Goes to show how forgettable they are. The part where Bilbo become un-invisible in the chambre with Smaug works way better if he remains invisible. In the book and in the animated movie (which is way better than this whole trilogy), there's a function to the dialogue between Bilbo and Smaug that only works if he's invisible. There's no good reason for Smaug not to kill Bilbo as soon as he sees him, so Smaug keeps Bilbo talking so he can work out where Billbo is based on sound and smell. Bilbo wants to keep Smaug talking so that he can find out as much about Smaug as he can and maybe discover a weakness. Which he does. There was no silly rumour of Smaug having a loose scale, Bilbo discovered Smaug's weakness by clever wordplay and using his vanity against him. The whole thing is a game of wits between cat and mouse, and it's vital that the cat not know exactly where the mouse is. Also, a point about the wine. My brother (who watches more LOTR lore videos than I do and has read the Hobbit more recently than me) tells me the wine actually originated in Dorwinion. Dorwinion was a land far to the east inhabited by both men and elves, and their economy revolved largely around growing wine for export. Laketown bought it from them and sold it on to the Mirkwood elves. That makes a lot more sense than Laketown producing the wine themselves, considering Laketown has neither the space nor the climate for vineyards. Edit: Of course, Dorwinion is irrelevant to the trilogy since it's never mentioned so we're left to assume the Laketowners have a vineyard somewhere.
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Can confirm the barrel section is basically a video game level. The LEGO Hobbit game had it and they literally didn't have to change ANYTHING to make it be amongst the top 3 levels in that game.
Was never a fan of the LEGO Hobbit game, LEGO LotR was far superior.
@@GritterTheBuckethead couldn't tell, I played it cause it was free on steam and I figured I might as well. Haven't played LEGO LotR. I agree it was a bit mid overall.
@@wfb.subtraktor311 Now that I think of it, it genuinely feels like the movies were written around that there would be a tie-in LEGO game.
The barrels and rhadagash both circle the same place until you finish the QuickTime events. Both of them were rather bland and forgettable to me.
@@DavidofthelostIt's Radagast... :-/
"Okay, Ladylas - Saves what she loves instead of fighting what she hates"
Mad respect Sir, that is perfect
Hey, at least Rose wasn't involved in a stupid love-triangle with dick jokes
@@Double-R-Nothing Yeah
It was a quadrangle, and one part of it *was* the joke
@joesmutz9287 Quadrangle... you mean a rectangle?
Wait, who is gettin rec’t?…. Is it Ladylas?…. What channel? Asking for a friend.
So a little detail about the drunken elves that is explicitly stated in the books but that the movie doesn't clearly mention is that elves *can* get drunk, but because of their physiology it is very difficult for them to get drunk. The wine that the wood elves have is from Laketown, which is their primary trade good with the elves. The wine they make is of a *particular* strength. Far stronger than almost any other alcoholic beverage in Middle Earth. This is because only the strongest of alcohol can actually get an elf drunk. Fast forward to the drinking contest with Gimli and we suddenly have some excellent context that makes the whole scenario hilariously ironic. Not only was Legolas quite familiar with alcohol and being drunk, he knew full well that the mead they were drinking in Rohan wasn't even close to strong enough to get him drunk. He pretended to be ignorant and led Gimli on, knowing full well the dwarf stood absolutely no chance of beating him.
The wine is from lake town????
I thought the Elven king makes his own wine that's much stronger. 🤔
They have a master of wine aswell.
@@koreancowboy42 In the book, the men of Laketown make the wine, and the Elven master of wine's job is to make sure that the wine is of good quality. Presumably the master of wine switches vendors based on price and quality.
@@koreancowboy42 Yes, the wine is indeed from Laketown. Now, I'm not certain if they make it there or if they trade for it and then pass it one to Thurandil, but the way their trade deal works is the men of Laketown trade barrels of wine up the river and the wood elves send the empty barrels back to be refilled.
My head cannon is that the Elves are drinking the original version of whiskey.
There is no supernatural property on the wine. It is just stronger wine than average. The drinking game between Gimli and Legolas and the latter basically not knowing what being drunk is, is an invention from PJ. This invention is particularly baffling because The Hobbit has these guards being drunk in the books, however, it was also cut from the theatrical edition which was a good move.
Elves are physiologically identical to Men, they're of the same species as Tolkien stated. That's why they can progeny together.
The difference between Elves and Men is spiritual, and in this world it is that spiritual difference that causes Men to age and Elves to be immortal. That's why despite all their technology, the Numenorians could not abate old age.
Overall, I find odd that the author of the video hasn't read the book or listened to the audiobook, but has spent multiple times the time to review these movies and edit these videos.
"Gandalf could've easily returned with Radagast, Saurman, Galadriel and a few houndret elves"
Lol, guess what happens in the books
The real reason Radagast accompanied Gandalf to the tomb was so that we could have a co-op character for the level in the video game LEGO The Hobbit.
I also find it really funny that you point out how videogame-like a lot of the action setpieces are because the adaptations of those scenes for the LEGO game made for very entertaining levels.
Also, it's due to the 80s and 90s kids now working on these productions. We grew up with video games, and most people do not analyze and unlearn tropes. They choose the rule of cool instead of "make it believable and then spice it up". They use anime logic and cgi instead of a prop master's diagrams of how to make a setpiece work.
We grew up with Sonic, Assassin's Creed, God of War, Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy and Banjo Kazooie and the Prequels and the writers working now are using that turn style/ move set flashiness in their diagramming and choreography. Their WoW and LoL hours are seeping into their work...
@@Undomaranel I see nothing inherently wrong with bit of magical realism in a film, especially if it's supposed to be an action romp, where excitement factor and power fantasy are kind of the point.
As I see it, that only becomes a problem with these films, because A) on several occations it's done in a manner, that blatantly clashes with the more comparably serious tone set up by the Lord of the Rings trilogy, which these films are supposed to work as an expansion to, and B) they more often than not fail to establish characters' vulnerability in the face of threats they'd face; something any functional video game with some comparable stuff in it generally achieves by having a health system and a fail state for neglecting to avoid getting hurt.
@@jondoe7036 Well, God Mode was always a videogame concept we grew up with. 🤣
@@jonahfalcon1970 Sure, but outside of some in-universe limited time and/or resource power up modes ala Devil Trigger, those are basically only available via cheating and not the intended (initial) experience with a game.
Considering how popular 3D was at the time and how every major film company used to make 3D rides of their franchises, I’m willing to bet this was for some theme park 3D ride. So many worthless, stupid action sequences…
I always thought that Smaug asking where bilbo is from was extremely threatening. Smaug intended to make sure no more of his kind bothered him again.
It's like Anton Chigurh with the gas station clerk in No Country For Old Men
I don't think it was intended like that. The reason Gandalf chose Bilbo is because Smaug wouldn't have dealt with hobbits before. If a dwarf, human or elf tried to sneak into Erebor Smaug would have killed them immediately whereas with Bilbo he was genuinely curious
Same for me, thus why Bilbo is extremely evasive in his answer, so Smaug couldn't know exactly where he was from.
unlikely; smaug would probably not leave his treasure to go all the way to the shire just to destroy all hobbits
@@HECKproductions dragons are petty and ego filled creatures.. not so lazy that they would avoid traveling to complete a vendetta.. they like doing shit like that...
This is a minor nit pick but: When Azog talks to Sauron and then demands and shouts at him, that scene makes no sense since Sauron would never allow an Orc to speak too him like that at all and would kill him to be an example to the others. Nor would an Orc even one like azog ever have the willpower to do that to Sauron.
Exactly! Sauron literally made the orcs worship him as a god and forbade the use of his name. They were terrified of him and any orc speaking to him like that would have been made an example of. Azog would have come before Sauron crawling.
@@JRAndrach Quite true, it was forbidden to speak his name, Aragorn even states this as so during Two towers when they're pursuing the Uruk raiders who attacked the Fellowship.
This is not a minor nitpick it’s a huge issue! Sauron would’ve destroyed his mind just talking to him
Maybe Sauron was feeling nice that time.
You’re absolutely right. It’s also ridiculous he mentions Thorin as if Sauron would even know or care who that is in comparison to his grand plans. Just reduces the scale of Sauron’s significant evil in my opinion.
35:48 Safety engineer here. The reason you may want to send the lightest first is because (in layman's terms) the rate to which an object is weakened by being subjected to weight is usually nonlinear. The dwarves, being metal-workers, very likely have some intuitive grasp of this fact. For example, subjecting a metal frame to 2000 lbs could weaken the frame as much as subjecting it to 1000 lbs, 16 times. So if Bombur weighs twice as much as the others, the vines could very well be weakened more by his going across first than by all 13 of the others going across first. Moreover, if the vines do break under Bombur's weight, then he dies and nobody gets across. It is entirely believable to me that the dwarves would want to cross in ascending order of weight.
Clever…
This is very interesting, thank you. Maybe that is what happened to the Titan submarine...
underrated comment
I agree with you, but in the movie, they clearly use Bilbo as a test subject, because after him they all go at the same time. It would be more logical to go 1 at a time, in ascending weight order, which they clearly do not do
@@Wobmiar Well, then ignore the bit that gives any credit to the dwarves' intelligence. Regardless, Random made the categorical assertion that the heaviest should be sent across first. That is still incorrect for the reasons outlined above, essentially the same reason you can put a 1 lb. coffee mug on a table 10,000 times without issue but you can't put a 10,000 lb. elephant on a table one time.
This is the rant I always wished I could give to my friends but nobody would sit and listen to me for two hours, cheers you legend
for all the ranting, this film still made more in 2 days than this guy has with his cartoon characters in his entire life.
@@Smokey420Greenleaf yes, a Hollywood film adaptation of a book written by the same author of three other books that were made into critically acclaimed film adaptations a decade earlier is probably going to make more money than a RUclipsr with under 20k subscribers, talking about said film a decade later when it's out of the mainstream consciousness - that's a very astute obsersvation.
Has absolutely no bearing on the quality of the video though, which I would argue has a better script than any of the Hobbit movies. Ultimately, I fail to see the point of your comment.
@@cranberryrosebud my point is simple, if this dude knew half the shit he thinks he does, he would, and should be producing these movies rather than producing trash youtube content. the fact that he's not clearly indicates he doesn't know shit. also, for all his bitching about how lazy and un-creative other content creators are, dude uses badly drawn cartoon characters from Disney movies to illustrate his points. kinda the pot calling the kettle black.
This is the comment that i wanted to write excactly like this but felt my pain first. Cheers you fellow rantfan
@@Smokey420Greenleaf because money is more important then a good movie and you will call any garbage good just because it made a lot of money... people like you are the reason why movies are getting worse and worse...
2:04:19 I legit thought the wilhelm scream was an edit from this video and not actually in the movie (i had not seen any of the extended cut from this trilogy) so to hear you explain that the wilhelm scream was actually there IN THE MOVIE made me laugh hysterically
Smaug refers to Thorin as "Oakenshield" despite the fact that Thorin was only given this name *after* the exile of the Dwarves from Erebor. Did someone sneak into Smaug's lair and tell him about Thorin's exploits and new nickname?
IIR a previous expedition went to Erebor and got its ass kicked/eaten - he probably had a nice chat with his lunch so that'd explain that..
@@rosiehawtreythat's still reaching, I think.
If he is in contact with Sauron and/or his forces they may have informed him of likely visitors or even just updated him on his old enemies. A stretch but if all we can do is stretch then stretch we must
The answer to that question is fairly simple. In fact it's the same answer as to how Smaug knows of the wine barrel trade between Esgaroth, Rhovanion and the Woodlands Realm : he hasn't come out of Erebor for - in both the book and the movies - ONLY 60 years whilst the sack of Erebor happened in 2770 3A. The action takes place in 2940 3A so it has been 170 years since said sack, which means Smaug used to go out of the mountain for 110 years and, as it happens, the Battle of Azanulbizar where Thorin acquired his nickname took place in the 2790s IIRC. It also happens that this battle is legendary within universe and that Thorin II Oakenshield is the current king of Durin's Folk, which implies he's likely very famous. Smaug has also been portrayed as someone who would chat with its victims before burning them to ashes so it's fairly reasonable to assume he had at least a few conversations in the aforementionned 80 years during which he used to go out of Erebor. Plus Thorin is one of Smaug's sworn enemy therefore him incuring about Thorin's situation makes perfect sense.
To put it in perpective, in real life history, there were muslim scholars of Transoxiana who had heard of Richard I, known as Lionheart, and they were aware of its nickname although given the state of the Seljuk sultanate at this time, they themself likely weren't very concerned about the Lionheart's activities in Palestine. Anyway, pretty long comment to say that this irrelevant detail isn't actually far-fetched.
If there are talking birds in Erebor, there might be talking bats sharing news with Smaug.
Smaug somehow heard of Erebors wealth while living in the northern wastes. So he must be able to get gossip somewhere.
Bilbo’s conversation with Smaug suffers because of how the structure supporting it was altered. In the book, Bilbo was hoping to find the Dragon’s weakness; Smaug wanted to kill Bilbo, but couldn’t find him because Bilbo never took off the Ring. So each kept the other talking in the hopes they’d slip up (as they each eventually did).
In _The Desolation of Smaug,_ Bilbo is looking for the Arkenstone instead, so he keeps Smaug talking to distract him while he searches. That’s functional enough; but what is Smaug getting out of his chat with Bilbo? This time the Hobbit’s NOT wearing the Ring. He’s standing right there; nothing to stop Smaug from just stepping on him. Perhaps the Dragon wanted information, but in that case why not just torture it out of him right quick? He’s a 150 foot-long flying theropod with a built-in flamethrower: plenty of different options he could use to make Bilbo very uncomfortable!
Maybe Smaug was just bored and welcomed the company for a change.
Tolkien's dragons are very vain, the way Smaug is depicted and loves flattery is still very inline with how they act
It's heavily implied in the movie that the dragon loves to talk and he especially loves the mystery and intrigue of Bilbo.
It's basically a game to him and fits in perfectly with how he is portrayed in the movies.
He doesn't consider himself a big dumb scary animal, he considers himself an intelligent and sharp 'special' being.
It's funny how the movie has Bilbo lose the ring during the spider fight to depower him even though in the books the only reason they all live is because Bilbo is invisible and thus able to fight the spiders which makes perfect sense in this situation as none of the dwarfs had their weapons anymore. It also helped that in the books there was no mind altering trippy quality to mirkwood they all just kinda fell to despair after weeks of being lost and ran around the woods chasing lights until they were captured.
actual line from The Hobbit, by J.R.R. Tolkien "Bilbo knew on sight that Mirkwood was sick"
@@Mephilis78and...
@@aidanwalker8755 My point was that there absolutely was a trippy supernatural quality to the woods.
it's more subtle than the film, though there is absolutely a magical component to the forest, the river for example is magical in the book, likewise they continuously run into things to entice them in the forest but this seems to have been a magical mirage effect, as soon as they leave the path and chase for instance an apparent revelling party of elves it disappears and they are then lost.
@@HarrDarr iirc, it's always the Wood Elves that they see off the road, right?
Funny thing is that in the books Elrond was world renowned one-of-a-kind healer thanks to his Ring of Power which amplified his magic. So when Frodo was delivered to him he uses Sauron's craftsmanship to remove Sauron's curse. I honestly doubt any elven mage at Thranduil's disposal could heal Kili of morgul poison. Looks like someone gave Bolg a cheap fake.
Vilya was not made by Sauron. What an epic failure of a comment.
@@theeffete3396I never said it was, so...
@@theeffete3396 It wasn't made by Sauron, but it and the other two elven Rings of Power were grafted by Celebrimbor using the knowledge and skills he'd acquired from working together with Sauron, so it was made using what was originally Sauron's craft. Hence why the One Ring still holds power over the elven Rings, even if Sauron himself never touched them, rendering them not safe to use as long as Sauron had the One.
@@theeffete3396Bravo, using the words "epic failure" has invalidated any point you possibly could have made.
There is absolutely no indication that Elrond's healing has anything to do with his ring. That's a weird inference you made yourself.
This shtick of taking bullet list character notes while watching is a brilliant way of making commentary. Well done.
It's also a good way of cataloging character growth and regression, along with being a good way to keep track of when someone is acting out of character to a bad or even egregious degree. So I have to give Random Film Talk kudos for it, I've never done it myself or seen any other reviewer do it like this before.
Indeed it is, hadn't thought about it that way
I was exatly about to say the complete opposite, that bullet list really wasted our time, but seems that less then avarage brains like yours needs it
It also makes this creator dude sound like a smug douchebag
I thought it was annoying at first, but it's pretty hilarious after a while.
I am absolutely astounded that the films cut one of the most important elements of the book: Bilbo is the very first person to notice Smaug's weak spot, and it is his report to the Dwarves of this weakness that the Thrush then passes on to Bard, enabling Bard to kill Smaug. So Bilbo is - via a domino effect - directly responsible for Smaug's death (not too dissimilar to how Frodo - via domino effect - is directly responsible for the Ring's destruction despite being mentally unable to literally release it from his hand). In the films, Bilbo never tells the Dwarves about Smaug's weak spot, and the thrush does nothing. So Bilbo's role in Smaug's demise is completely eliminated. Ridiculous.
Yeah of all the infuriating changes or deletions they made, leaving out the thrush and Smaugs weak spot was probably the most upsetting. Go back and watch the cartoon from the 70s, maybe I'm blinded by childhood nostalgia but at least they stick to the books
I think you might misunderstand how 'directly' and 'indirectly' are generally used...
Generally if you are the last domino before something happens you are generally the person that is directly responsible for that thing.
All the other domino's before that are indirectly responsible.
For instance, in your example, the Bards ancestors that knocked off the scale from Smaug is directly responsible for its death.
Bard could not kill Smaug like he did without that happening.
But using it like that is a bit impractical because the final domino is the only one that truly matters.
Just as an aside to where some of these extra scenes came from, Tolkien had whole outlines describing what Gandalf was doing and planning but kept those to the Appendixes and Unfinished Tales (and other notes) because he knew that they were unimportant to the stories he was telling but he wanted every detail to have an explanation for those who were curious (mainly himself being curious).
All the scenes with Radagast and the rest of the council were scenes that would have happened in the lore but condensed from a century down to a year to fit in the movie. Radagast who was living in Mirkwood investigated its corruption as it was beginning and tracked the source to Dul-Guldur a century before the events of the Hobbit. He then went to Gandalf for backup and Gandalf investigated further going into Dul-Guldur and finding Thrain 91 years before the Hobbit. Gandalf learns of Sauron and some of his plans and escapes (not captured like in the movie) and reports his findings. Saruman is unwilling to do anything so Gandalf does more investigating and eventually gets Saruman to call a council a decade before the Hobbit and is not a random meeting at Rivendell when the Dwarves are passing through. At the counsel in the books it is decided that they will drive Sauron from Dul-Guldur and a time is set for the attack one decade later and all members go to prepare forces. Gandalf also insists on dealing with Smaug as he had discovered Sauron intended to use Smaug but everyone else just wanted to let sleeping Dragons lie, even so he convinced them to let him come up with and execute a plan on his own. Eventually when nothing was coming to him and time was running short he decided to go to the Shire for a rest before setting out for Mirkwood the next year hoping something would come to him when Thorin found Gandalf in Bree and the quest for the Lonely Mountain was planned. Gandalf agreed to accompany them to Mirkwood but he had to be there for the assault or else he was afraid Saruman would call it off. So in the books he leaves to go fight Sauron intending to return to the Dwarves when he is done. While a good story could be told from this outline the condensing of time led to some wild teleporting and make Gandalf's plan unclear since he no longer has all the information at the beginning of the story.
Azog in the lore fought a war with the Dwarves between when Smaug cast them out of Erabor and the Hobbit. He was eventually slain in the battle depicted in the movies not by Thorin but by Dain. In the books Bolg was the one tasked with taking Erabor after Smaug was defeated, and in the final movie it should have been him who Thorin fought at the end. Movies just had a weird mix of Azog and Bolg for reasons I do not understand. If they wanted an antagonist the whole way through they could have used Bolg and played up the goblin's need for revenge after killing their King. Azog seemed like a stretch and only added a bland villan.
Tariel was added due to a studio mandate for more women and a romance subplot, and has no inspiration from Tolkien's lore.
Anyway just a summary of where the Bloat came from in case anyone was curious.
In the novel, Bard mentions how he has "always retrieved" the black arrow, implying he's used it many times before and may well have missed with it too.
In the cartoon version of the Hobbit, it's just a regular arrow albeit one that was nicely made. Pretty much anyone could have killed Smaug as long as they knew about the bare spot on his body.
Yes, the Black Arrow was a ballista bolt only in the Peter Jackson films. Though even in the book, Bard suggests that the arrow is believed to have come "from the forges of the true king under the Mountain" (the dwarves).
@theproplady well not anyone, since they would still need the strength to wield a bow and the experiance to hit a small moveing target.
Bard's shot with the arrow was so powerful it sunk itself deep into Smaug, completely disappearing into the dragon.
@@otaku-sempai2197 More than likely was made from Mithril and enchanted
Gandalf seeing the ring would've not broken LOTR. At the beginning of LOTR (both movies and books), Gandalf does know about Bilbo's ring. He just believed it to be merely one of the lesser rings of power. On top of that, the ring at this point in time was sort of sleeping. Granting some powers, yes, but with Sauron not yet reincarned, not operating at full strength. Gandalf would've not being able to detect it for what it was.
Bilbo feeling its influence instead breaks the movie continuity a ton more. How is he already feeling corruption now and at the same time capable of holding up against its corruption with almost no lasting effect for 60 years until the beginning of LOTR?
Good answer.
Also considering how much Gandalf was scared of the Balrog, I hardly doubt he could face Sauron without having an heart attack in this situation. 😂
Bilbo seems incredibly strong since he was able to keep the ring for so many years, so it's impossible for him to feel so weak at this point. This trilogy is very chaotic.
Also, at this point Gandalf could believe that Bilbo has found a lesser ring (not one of the 20 Rings of Power), one of those that were made while the Elves of Eregion were still perfecting their ring-craft.
@@krabkrabby The entire point of Gandalf having been sent to Middle-Earth was entirely *because* he was way too fucking scared to even go near Sauron much less actually challenge him. It's the literal reason WHY he was chosen to guide Middle-Earth's defense
Gandalf actually couldn't sense the Ring. The only time he even began to suspect Bilbo's ring was the One Ring was when he went to touch it and even then he went to Gondor and began poking around, hoping to find some paper trail of the Ring, and that's when he found Isildur's personal writings about what happened
I think it's pretty clear the writers exaggerated the Ring's effect on Bilbo just to communicate to the audience that it is an Evil Ring - since there is no actual plot point or character development related to it's corruption in the movies. I'm willing to accept that as "artistic liberty" - I would've been far more bothered, if the plot of the movie actually revolved around the Ring corrupting Bilbo, or in some other way was more than just a passing acknowledgement that this is an Evil Ring.
You know what's not fair? Arwen actually WAS mentioned in The Hobbit, and yet she wasn't in Rivendell, while Legolas wasn't mentioned in any way and he gets to be in the movies!!
In fairness, she may have been in Lothlorien at the time. When she returned to Rivendell I am uncertain right now.
Maybe Arwen's actress wasn't available or had no interest?
YEP! Arwen should have been in this as well!
When is Arwen mentioned in The Hobbit book? I don’t recall that. The bigger question, though, is why in neither the book nor the films do Bilbo and the Dwarves come across a young human boy named Estel in Rivendell, given that Elrond is supposed to be fostering Aragorn at this point.
@@12classics39 I don't think Tolkien had invented the character of Aragorn when he wrote the Hobbit, for starters. As to the movie, it's not really relevant to the plot, and the only reason to include such a thing would be sheer, undisguised fanservice.
These critical breakdown-takedowns are addicting. Our expanding personality list with the Misty Mountains elevator music is the cherry on top.
My biggest gripe when I saw this was the morgul shaft. Why couldn’t it have just been a poisoned? Same thing would’ve happened. My other problems were Bofur over sleeping & getting left behind & Oin not knowing what kingsfoil is for. He’s a healer for Valar’s sake!
I'm pretty sure Oin knew what Kingsfoil was. He was going to use it himself, he just didn't have magical elvish medicine that somehow makes it into a wonder-cure. The entire population of Laketown, on the other hand.... "Kingsfoil? We feed it to the pigs"
Oin not knowing what kingsfoil is fits in with the lore as it was bought over by the numenoreans and all but the dunedain and the elves had no idea of its healing properties even the healers in the the houses of healing had no idea of its properties
@@BourneColdBlooded Oin specifically asked for kingsfoil to bring the fever down. It was herpderp gaston/laketowners who feed it to the pigs
@@BourneColdBlooded Really? I borrowed the trilogy (didn’t finish before having to return it). Is it in there or the appendices? Or will I have to read The Silmarillion?
@@annegrey6447 yer its in chapter 8 return of the king i think, the houses of healing aragorn asks the healers for athelas/kingsfoil and they tell him they do not store it because they did not know of any great healing properties
2:44 in the actual story, Azog can speak Black Speech and Dwarfish, showing he’s probably quite smart. When Thror and Nar came to Moria, Thror ventured in alone and was killed either by Azog or his Orcs.
Azog then mocked Nar, calling him a ‘beggar-beard’ and basically calls dwarves homeless tramps, and then tossed Thror’s ‘weregild’ by tossing Nar a sack of worthless sack of coins. On Thror’s head he had his name carved in runes, and proclaimed himself the king under the mountain. He’s practically goading on the Dwarves to attack him, ‘come and have a go if you think you’re hard enough’. He never swore an oath to end the line of Durin, unless he did it during the war.
So Azog is shown to be intelligent, learned, literate in Dwarfish and then presumably Black Speech, and knowledgeable of Dwarven culture and history. What they could’ve done is go over the entire history of the Dwarves in the prologue, wherein they could’ve included that scene. To do it justice it seems like it’d take 20-30 minutes but if Friday The 13th can have one of those and keep it engaging, so can Middle Earth.
Azog could write, was more or less an independet emperor of the Misty Mountains (at least during the 7 year war with the dwarves). But he did not speal dwarf language. This was a secret he could not have learned from evil dwarfs or from archives in Moria (dwarfs wrote in elvish).
Azog spoke westron to Nar.
For fans of the books, it is hilariously jarring to see Thror die during the Battle of Azanulbizar, considering that in the books it was Azog's murder of Thror that caused that battle in the first place.
@@JustAnArrogantAlien Does Azog actually speak in the books? It's just a reference by Gandalf when rallying the other armies to join.
@@jonahfalcon1970 Not in _The Hobbit,_ but he DOES speak in the appendices to _The Return of the King._ He could communicate with Thror's aide, so he was definitely able to speak some other language besides Black Speech. It's very unlikely he spoke Khuzdul, though; the Dwarves were very secretive with their language. Azog was probably speaking Westron.
Normally I don't watch long analysis videos, like your cliff notes regarding characters in previous videos are the real deal for some analysis videos, but you manage to mix criticism with humor pretty nicely.
Honestly hard agree, I'm really impressed. I think the format was ruined by sweaty neckbeards hell bent on turning everything into SJW content but this has none of [that] shit. Would love to hear this guys opinions on the star wars sequels, this format would be brilliant 👏
@@shaunsocha421 You are absolutely right. Most of them are just endless word salads. And I was already sold when this guy uses "forbidden" words
I'm an absolute sucker for movie deep analysis/lookbacks/retrospectives. I'm super happy to have found your content and channel and I LOVE that these are all over 2 hour videos. Absolute amazing work, keep it up!
Tobias:
Is a suck-up to Random Film Talk
Random Film Talk wants his "love truncheon".
This trilogy feels more like good DnD campaign to play, battle scenes are full of critical rolls, and some characters are really well written. This also explain why dwarfs act really weird sometimes, it is just bad roleplay.
5.5 hours later I can't wait for part three. Thanks for the deep dive into the Hobbit that I didn't know I wanted.
This reminded me there was a time when you learned something good was coming and you would get excited to see it knowing it will be up to certain standarts and can't wait for it. Right in the nostalghia...
I agree with this, been looking forward to this all week I'm surprised more creators don't do this
Once upon a time, that's how I felt waiting for new Star Wars movies.
I still do feel that for Tarantino Movies though... Maybe the only filmmaker in Hollywood I give a darn about.
Cheers from France guys! 🍻
I'd upvote you but I'm not gonna be the one to break that sweet, sweet number.
That's still true today. It's just that the standard is much much lower😀
_The world is changed_
The scenes of Bilbo and Smaug are by far and away the best scenes in the entire Hobbit movies. The ending of part 2, with his flying towards Laketown and saying “I am…DEATH” is so good.
Just a shame the rest of the movies couldn’t live up to that high-water mark.
Except it's fucking annoying that Bilbo reveals himself. In the book, it's a guessing game between Bilbo and Smaug, with is a callback to the guessing game with Gollum, even before the edit Tolkien made (in which Gollum gives Bilbo the gift of the Ring). Smaug can hunt down and kill anything he sees.
In addition, Smaug is confused by Bilbo's smell. That's a key part of the scene.
I have no fucking idea why you'd have Smaug see Bilbo.
But then again, Peter Jackson can't write and doesn't understand storytelling at all. As a director, he's a good cinematographer.
He's death, but he was running from dwarves
@@your.dark.lord. Oh no... dwarves... it's not like Smaug literally ate thousands of dwarves with only Thorin's dad and granddad escaping through a secret tunnel.
Yep. I meant in the film, the chase, thorin taunting him, that golden dwarf...it looked he left the mountain out of powerlessness because he couldn't catch them, they chased him out. Pius, Bilbo taking the ring out and survivimg. Therefore, zero danger .
@@jonahfalcon1970 Peter Jackson is a good writer and exceptional director...
He did an exceptional job of directing the LotR and that required a large amount of trimming the fat from the writing.
The Hobbit trilogy has issues but it's not terrible and the issues were mostly a result of studio tampering and/or the production problems.
I think my favorite part of your videos are the character trait bullet points, it's incredibly unique and very entertaining
I will say, gandalf and radagast arriving at the same time is properly explained in fellowship.
Assuming gandalf sent radagast an estimation of when he’d be there…..
They’re both wizards, so they’re never late, nor are they early, they arrive precisely when they mean to.
I'd love too see a video series on The Lord of the Rings trilogy in the same sense as this, the only difference being that it's actually good.
If I could piggy back off of this, I would love to see what criticisms you would levy against TLOR just out of curiosity
51:10 Why Thanduil wants those jewels so much is explained in a scene cut from the film. Those jewels belonged to his late wife and he asked the dwarves to put them in a necklace, but the dwarves charged triple the price of what had been agreed upon.. Honestly, I have no idea why they cut this from the film, as it explains Trhanduil's motivations very well and gives more depth to his character.
As far as I know , but i might be wrong that the symbol of an eye has been always a sigil of Souron in Tolkien's lore , even during the times of Morgoth . So I guess that it's reasonable for Gandalf to know this .
Yes, but he’s going specifically on what the movies say. I don’t think they ever mentioned that in the movies…🤷🏻♀️
As for why bilbo talks the way he does with smaug. This is how you talk to dragons if you dont want to reveal your real name and because you dont want to make them angry by refusing to give your name. Dragons love riddling talk and love wasting time trying to understand it
Then why would he show his fucking face to him?
@@jonahfalcon1970 Because dragons in Tolkien's universe are *especially* vain as fuck. Had Bilbo not revealed himself and continued to evade Smaug, he would end up hurting Smaug's pride and make an actual enemy of Smaug in that moment. By revealing himself, he is immediately de-escalating Smaug with an "Aha! You *did* find me" And immediately posing Smaug with the new question of "What in the actual fuck is that thing?" Which will keep Smaug distracted with wanting to know more about Bilbo rather than just outright murdering the fuck out of him. Only way to keep a dragon in LOTR from killing you is by basically convincing them that you are far more interesting to them alive
@andrewmeyer3599 No.
Just no.
Dragons are PRACTICAL in Tolkien's universe. They are vengeful and cruel.
They are vain, yes, but they are extremely intelligent.
If Bilbo revealed himself to Smaug in the book, it EXPLICITLY STATES that the dragon would have controlled Bilbo's mind. It even STATES that Bilbo was feeling a strong urge to reveal everything to Smaug.
Had Bilbo revealed himself, he'd have spilled the beans on everything and Smaug would have EATEN him.
Furthermore, everything Smaug sees, he will capture. He sees you, you're finished.
The game he plays with Smaug is to distract him from the dwarves. Smaug isn't prideful (except for his gem coat), he just loves riddles.
You may notice that the game Bilbo plays is actually a CALLBACK TO GOLLUM. Bilbo is using his brain to deal with threats, not Sting.
Let me put this simply: Peter Jackson doesn't know Tolkien. He doesn't know how to write. He is a cinematographer, not a director.
Stop watching the films and actually READ THE BOOKS.
"I suppose you got a fair price for that cup last night?" [Smaug] went on. "Come now, did you? Nothing at all! Well, that's just like [dwarves]. And I suppose they are skulking outside, and your job is to do all the dangerous work and get what you can when I'm not looking - for them? And you will get a fair share? Don't you believe it! If you get off alive, you will be lucky."
Bilbo was now beginning to feel really uncomfortable. Whenever Smaug's roving eye, seeking for him in the shadows, flashed across him, he trembled, and an unaccountable desire seized hold of him to rush out and reveal himself and tell all the truth to Smaug. In fact he was in grievous danger of coming under the dragon-spell.
Smaug's being an idiot, vain dragon is Jackson's idea. The only time Smaug was vain was when Bilbo complimented his gem coat, revealing the single spot with no gem.
Bilbo's flattery was to pique Smaug's curiosity. But make no mistake, Smaug was fully aware of Bilbo trying to flatter him.
‘You have nice manners for a thief and a liar, said the dragon.’
Does that sound like someone who is fooled by Bilbo's flattery?
In defense of the "send the lightest first". If you sent the lightest first, you have the biggest chance of getting as many people across as possible, until one is to heavy. That is, if you stick to one at a time.
That said, great video, I really enjoy your thorough analysis.
That would imply that the group was okay with some or even most of them dying just to get the remainder across the river
@@Jacob-ge1pyi mean, it's better that some of them die or get trapped than most of them.
@@delivererofdarknessshoguno1133 I think it would be better if just one died and the rest found another way than for half of them to die and the rest continue.
On the point where Bilbo could be more susceptible to the Ring is the fact he is not like other Hobbits. Hobbits are resistant to the ring because they lack ambiton and genuinly enjoy simple lives whereas Bilbo wants adventure and to interact with the world around him.
Not saying the movie is good but this part can make sense when we take it in the context of Bilbo being different to other Hobbits. If we compare this to Frodo, Frodo thinks he wants adventure but we quickly find that he actually just wants his simple life back.
"Bilbo is then shrink-wrapped by the spider and then oh dear, I guess they all die now!" That got me good 🤣
Another problem i have with the gold scene is that, implausible as that whole "melting statue" thing is, Smaug appears to be completely unhindered by this. I can appreciate that Smaug, being a magical dragon, can resist a large amount of heat. However, being coated in liquid metal (which presumably quickly cools) is absolutely going to have some effect on him.
In the film, the gold appears to behave like hot paint. It scalds, and it sticks to Smaug's body in a thin layer. However, it never hardens, and it quickly falls away wgen he takes off towards Laketown.
Real metal does not do this. Even if being drenched in molten metal did not directly harm Smaug, being covered in a quickly-hardening layer of heavy element would absolutely affect him. It would begin to seize his joints, fuse his eyes closed (or directly blind him), block his mouth and nostrils, and weigh him down immensely. He would absolutely not be able to fly afterwards, as his wings would be coated as if with plaster. His scales, in particular, would be a surface which the metal would adhere to strongly.
I could have forgiven this if Smaug was depicted as shaking plates of gold off his body, as if he was emerging from a cocoon. However, we got nothing like that, and the entire "gold sequence" was blown off as empty spectacle.
Finally, it's time for The Hobbit 2: Hobbit Harder.
I find your voice so relaxing I use your videos over and over again as background noise because they help me sleep better.
Thranduil wants gems, not Mithril. He tells Thorin that he wants "white gems" that are in the mountain in exchange for aid. And the prologue scene shows us those gems which appear to have been offered to him as a gift by the king, then rescinded. That's not mithril in the chest. (Really, because of that slight Thorin shouldn't have been surprised when Thranduil turned away as Smaug attacked. Why should he help someone who treated him like dirt at an official meeting?) The gems shining like starlight would have been irresistable to the elves, so that's what he asked for in exchange. A small price to pay for an entire elven army to help defeat the dragon, really. Thorin seems to want help for free, or to offer to pay after the fact and then renege on the agreement. I suppose that tracks given some of the history. (On a deeper level, this is supposedly a reference to the necklace King Thingol commissioned the dwarves to make with the silmaril Beren and Luthien stole from Morgoth's crown. When Thingol went to collect the necklace, the dwarves refused to hand it over and Thingol killed some of them before being killed himself. Then the elves massacred the dwarves of that area, thus leading to the legendary distrust and hatred between dwarves and elves. Total mess.)
EDIT: I was corrected in my recollection of events relating to the Nauglamir and Silmaril by some comments below. I've placed my misstatement of events in parentheses above. Thanks to John S for remembering the details better than me.
Thingol did not kill some of the dwarves, they murdered him for insulting them when they made their dumbest request in history demanding the Nauglamir and the Silmaril as payment for putting the Silmaril in the Nauglamir. They killed Thingol and tons of others before returining to Nogrod and then going to war with Menegroth killing almost all the Elves who lived there. Oropher and Thranduil escaped. Elves didn't massacre anybody nor start that conflict, like, at all.
@John S As far as I remember, the dwarves didn't want the nauglamir as payment. They made the necklace for Finrod Felagund as a symbol of friendship. But when Finrod died, Thingol came into the possession of the necklace thanks to Hurin. Sure, the dwarves actually wanted the silmaril, but they basically said "We made the necklace specifically for Felagund. He's dead and according to Dwarven laws, the ownership returns to us since we made the necklace."
So it wasn't about payment but ownership.
@@johns1625 That's right! Forgive me for mis-remembering. I was pretty sure the Dwarves were all killed shortly after, but you're right, that didn't happen until after they'd sacked Menegroth and took the treasure from Doriath. I really need to revisit the book. I appreciate the correction for my faulty memory.
@@NoxAtlas Well, the fact remains they took the commission to place the silmaril into it and then refused to give it back. If they only wanted the Nauglamir they likely could have kept it so long as they returned the silmaril. They could have refused the commission in the first place, but didn't. I think the claim that they only wanted to adhere to dwarvish custom relating to ownership of dwarf-made things was only part of the issue and in the end it was just an excuse for them to claim both the Nauglamir and the silmaril together. They could claim a right of ownership of the Nauglamir, not to the Silmaril.
@@JRAndrach True and Thingol even pointed out that they used that ownership issue merely as an excuse because they only wanted the silmaril, not the necklace. Honestly, this part of the Silmarillion didn't really make sense to me and was perhaps the weakest part of the story. Like you said: the dwarves could have just kept silmaril and lock Thingol out if he wanted it back. There's no reason for them to accept the commission, go back with the nauglamir with the silmaril and then start an argument.
The only explanations are that the curse of the silmarils make every non-worthy individual greedy and act completely irrational and illogical so they end up being killed or Tolkien didn't revise the version to fix this issue and his son didn't want to change it.
The scenes between Bilbo and Smaug are the absolute highlight of this trilogy to me 😊
I've got to add that from a canon perspective, it's irritating that they went with the necromancer-raises-the-Witch-King plot, since long before this point in Middle Earth's history, the elf Glorfindel prophesied that the Witch King would not be killed by any man (the prophesy fulfilled when Merry and Eowyn kill him). Which means the flashback kings of Arthedain knew he wasn't dead when they buried him, so why wasn't he guarded?
It's particular levels of nonsense. The witch king could absolutely be killed (by anyone) if his magic sorcery was breached.
The sword Merry uses to stab him is enchanted by the men of old Arnor. They knew they might meet him in battle (millennia earlier) and prepared for it by enchanting their weapons.
It makes no sense that they could capture him, but not kill him, and contradicts things seen in the RotK movie. Just sloppy writing from a rushed production
The Witch-King shouldn’t be able to be buried in Rhudaur in the first place because of what his Ring of Power did to him.
These analyses are longer than the movies, and somehow still more entertaining.
Sauron doesn't actually need the ring to have a physical form. Sauron has a physical form in the LotR, he is just unwilling to leave Baradur because the last time he decided to fight on the front lines, things... didn't go so well. The "eye" on Baradur is a projection of Sauron's power he uses to observe his realm, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a physical form. This is party to be blamed on the fact that PJ's trilogy never shows the mutilated, but corporeal form of Sauron post 2nd Age.
This film, much more than the previous, adds additional bloat to the original story which tends to not only cheapen the story with cheap action sequences and unnecessary tension building, but also makes the sections that were sourced from the original material make no sense due to the disrupted context the original story had set up(see: Beorn meeting the Dwarves, Azog's existence in general, etc.).
In the book Gollum outright states that he was tortured by Sauron and even that he is missing one finger (for obvious reasons) I don't even think that there is ever an outright description of the eye as something that is anything more than a metaphor for Sauron's ever-present authority and power.
@@delivererofdarknessshoguno1133 I think there may be an edition of one of the first edition books that had an eye on it, which was probably Jackson's inspiration.
I don't think Sauron has a corporeal form in the Jackson films. When Isildur cuts the ring off, we see Sauron disintegrate. He also only appears as a spirit in the Hobbit films. Plus, in behind the scenes footage for both trilogies, the writers say on multiple occasions that Sauron has lost his physical form and is now a disembodied spirit. So that's the movie lore. In the book it may be different, I haven't read it yet so I don't know.
I actually don't have a problem with Bilbo commenting that Mirkwood "looks sick." It effectively informs the audience that people who don't understand evil magic can still feel its effects. It also arguably implies that hobbits are uniquely good at discerning these things because of their good nature.
The weird thing is I think it's the ring that Sauron gave to Thráin II which is meant to have corrupted him and given him Dragon sickness, not the Arkenstone. So it's a bit of a weird tangent in the Hobbit film.
Sauron didn't give the Ring (one of the seven) to Thráin (Thráin would be at least 3000 years old, which no dwarf in the books reached even closely)
But yes I always thought it was part of the Royal Bloodline to fall for Gold xD
No seriously you make a good point, because the ring probably dialed the love of Gold, Dwarves have, up to eleven on Thráin and Thorin succumbed to the dragonsickness quite litterally as Smaug was on this pile of Gold for sixty years. I always understood it, that dragonsickness is the ultimate "upgrade" to the greed Thráin had.
It's kind of dumb they changed that considering all the other lame and cringy tangents they took to try and tie these films to LotR. It would have been cool to see Gandalf recall that to Bilbo and maybe add some uncertainty or curiousity to his new possession of the One Ring
@@aaronhollermann9831 Let's be honest, I think anyone who sat on a throne surrounded by a sea of gold and jewels would go a mad.
@@charlestonjew7587 maybe not instantly but yeah, thats quite a given I think
The arkenstone didn't give them dragon sickness.
It was the rings of power that helped bolster the dwarves greed which in turn became Dragon sickness.
It mainly made them to be more greedy.
I think the book portrayed the 2 dwarves at a time shtick better. Beorn seemed a lot more interested in the story when reading it than the acting gave. Also imagined him a much burlier character.
Yeah, I always thought of Beorn like the height he was but built wide like a dwarf lol
1:59:50 "its undoubtedly a trap" The sad thing is you can tell they wanted this line because "sounds cool" at the expense of making any sense. Almost like Gandalf just became a reckless, over-confident, egotistical maniac who thinks he's so powerful he can walk directly into a waiting trap and nothing bad will happen. Or has a death wish. Neither of which are Gandalf's character.
That line would fit better in a comically over-the-top action movie like the Expendables or Red. "But you can't ride a motorcycle directly into the waiting enemy ambush ahead, you'll die!" flicks cigarette "I'm sure I will." rides off anyway
Gandalf: Radagast, i’m going in there. If you don’t hear from me in a month, send Link.
It's funny how some problems come from places where they deviated from the books (everything was Azog, a lot of the more bombastic nonsense, new characters, etc.), and others come from places where the Hobbit films are slightly closer than the LOTR films were to the books (elves being able to get drunk, Sauron manifesting physically, etc.). Additionally, bookwise, Sauron/the Necromancer was still an unhoused spirit at this time, but by the time of LOTR, was able to take physical form. We know this because we are told by Aragorn that Gollum told him that Sauron tortured him personally, and had four fingers on his black hand.
Sucks for Sauron that even when being reformed, he couldn't get that finger back. Poor fella.
@@MST3Killa Yeah. I have so much sympathy for the mass-murdering evil overlord. 😁
@@SupremeGreatGrandmaster ...yeah...it's a joke
@@MST3Killa
Yes. I know. I got it. That's why there's a smiley face emoji.
And I thought my reply was so witty! 😒
I'd like to add my personal favourite scene that sends chills down my spine thinking about it. When Pippin touches the Palantir, he sees Sauron. To me it's mind blowing that out of the Fellowship, not Gandalf or Legolas wisest of beings and strong of will, but little Pippin is the one to see the Dark Lord himself. One of my favourite moments to picture every time I read it. For a long time I thought only he had seen Sauron, but now I remember Aragorn revealing himself, so I guess he likely saw the dark lord as well.
52:39 this is actually addressed in the book. Compared to the other elves, Thraduil is something of a coward by this point and his kingdom is not sustained by a ring like Lothlorien and Rivendell are, so he has to trade for resources, which is why he wants some of the treasure. They may have decided that his backstory was too much to include but I think it would have fit nicely thematically since it’s about past battles and (iirc) losing his father
You're saying I'll suffer another 4 days of wait?😭
I am here to remind you the premiere will start soon
He really blue balled us with this wait
Did you survive the wait???
@@joefish5689 Jeeez... you think this kind of in-depth analysis can be begun after breakfast and finished before lunch? 😦
@@robertsmith-hp8tv What about after our second breakfast?
This video series is possibly the best video series on RUclips.
Fantastic job!
I find this content more entertaining than the films themselves.
I used to be an adventurer like you. Then I took a Morgul shaft in the knee.
The giant bees, I believe, were a nod to the 3D animators, giving audiences the experience of GIGANTIC bees flying through the movie screen.
Well in the book Beorn did keep bees that were described to be larger than usual, but as always the movies gotta exaggerate every detail so...
The lightest person crossing the path first COULD HAVE made sense. You might want to do that in case lots of weight destroys the path for everyone else.
Of course, this is COMPLETELY negated by all 13 dwarfs then trying to go simultaneously, with the heaviest one being further ahead of some of the lighter dwarfs. Really liked the video, by the way.
Stoked already, your content is great! Congratulations on the channel growth 😃👍
Fair play on the RUclips algorithm for pushing this. I like long formats and your style is very appealing.
Funny, critical, fair and very personable. Look forward to seeing what else you cover
Ah yes... The movie when things really started to go completely south. Unexpected Journey certainly had a lot of problems, but I can't deny that it tried. Now this one... The color grading went from over saturated to make it more whimsical... to completely greyish and depressing. Fan service was shoved into our throats with Legolas' overwhelming presence, presence that was only warranted because of the introduction of the most pointless character in the entire 6 films aka Tauriel... Actually trying to fight Smaug because we need a climax no matter how non-sensical... Gandalf's side quest... Even without going into the intricacies that make or break a plot, the great lines are already looking pretty bad, and it only gets worse with the next one.
EDIT : Let's see how Smaug was characterized in the book as opposed to this film. I am going by memory so this might not be 100% accurate, but 80% at worst. In the book, Bilbo descends in Erebor twice, the first time, he finds Smaug very much alive and sleeping, and he steals a single item of value from the treasure. This causes Smaug's deep slumber to shift towards a nightmare of him getting stolen from.
He then descends a second time, I think with the express purpose of finding the Arkenstone, but this time Smaug is paying attention and notices Bilbo's presence thanks to his incredible sense of smell. Thus ensues the conversation between the two, because Smaug is curious enough to interact with Bilbo, especially since Bilbo is an entirely unknown entity to him, to the point he can't even see him and doesn't fully understand why. In this conversation, it's revealed to us that Smaug's chest area isn't naturally covered in invincible dragon scales, it's an artificial "armor", made from all the treasures he's been sleeping on, and it's imperfect enough that there's a clear weakness Bilbo notices, transmits to the dwarves, and then a bird who was listening transmits to Bard. The conversation ends with Bilbo fleeing in the tunnel he came from and narrowingly escaping death by dragon fire, Smaug also deduces he might be affiliated to Laketown because of his latest title being related to barrels, and we learn that he fears the lake because it's deep and cold enough that if he was injured and fell in it, he would actually be in danger of death.
That's the one and only time we get Smaug's direct characterization. He then gets out of the mountain and tries to find the secret entrance, breathing dragon fire on several portions of the mountain, which forces the dwarves to lock themselves in the moutain. Having seemingly failed, Smaug then turns his attention to Laketown and destroys the city before being felled by Bard and all the archers he could muster to fight Smaug.
Admittedly, there are several elements that reek of contrivance due to the book's more lighthearted and whimsical nature. But it's still vastly superior to the film mainly because Smaug never directly confronts our heroes, he's allowed to display his cunning personality once and then becomes a concealed looming threat until we learn that he was defeated, which comes as a shock to both the reader and the company which got out of the moutain 2 weeks after getting locked in. All the fighting non-sense and the story of his scales getting pierced (especially a single one), literally doesn't exist and it's far better off without it.
Yeah, but Tauriel extremely cute..
Wasn’t this movie received better than the first one when it first came out?
@@x52wolf12 Hard to say, I didn't pay attention at critics at the time, I'm merely speaking about what I believe to be the honest truth about this movie.
It would have been so much better if Bilbo had been able to trick Smaug into showing him where the Arkenstone was. It would make complete sense for a dragon, which covets expensive and incredible things, to know where they'd be in their collection. And Bilbo outwitting opponents is something that's already been reinforced throughout the story.
I don’t like the idea of Smaug falling for a trick, he should be much too clever for that, even if he does fall for other tricks in the film.
Found your channel after your first Hobbit video. Then preceded to binge your RoP series. I don’t sub to many channels but man you got me!
Keep up the great work👍
Going to state again that there are loads of Fan edits that trim this trilogy down to one long movie. None are perfect but they tend to trim most of the cringe while keeping most of the good. Just about any edit that cuts Ladylas, Azog, and the white council entirely from the movie is better than the trilogy it came from. I would recommend the M4 edit to anyone wanting something close to the book. The Bilbo Baggins edit and the Ravenomics edit are also pretty good.
Even though Lee Pace did a fantastic job in my opinion, I still have absolutely no idea why they decided to turn the king into a douche and be so obsessed with some gems. There are parts of the movie that were directly taken from the book (Beorn scenes for instanse), but why on Earth wouldn't you do the same with the elves? Mirkwood elves are different from their kin in other places of Middle Earth and in Valinor, they have never seen the light of the Trees and they originally declined Orome's invitation to go to the Undying lands. They are closer to nature, much less civilized and more savage even, and in the book they are depicted closer to fairies from the English folklore. It was a perfect oppotrunity to show another elven faction and how different elves can be.
Moreover, the king had to intention to deal with dwarves and their quest at all, he was simply pissed they crossed his borders uninvited and Thorin was cocky about that. I love the portrayal and the aethtetic in general, but the motivation is lame and seems to be a cheap rip-off of the story of Thingol and the dwarves from the Silmarillion (Tranduil is a Thingol's relative)
It is mostly said that sauron does have a physical form, he just never leaves his tower. In the book it is stated that gollum actually saw sauron when he was being tortured in barad dur. He mentions that he “has four black fingers on his terrible hand” which shows that his injury still stayed when he reformed physically, and he personally tortured gollum. He needs the ring because it has a large amount of his life force and power in it. Although he can reform physically already, he is severely weakened, and is afraid to leave his tower. If he had the ring he could probably walk freely, and control his army from where he was, and still control his eye to keep watch on everything happening all over the place. It also hold a a lot of his magical powers, which he uses to control his armies, so if he got the ring back his martial power would grow by a huge amount. Obviously it was also a huge source of weakness if destroyed. It tied his spirit to the physical world, with out the ring his spirit would not be able to reform and would be dispersed across all existence. In the book after the ring is destroyed Sauron’s spirit rises out of Mordor as a huge black cloud, he reaches out his hand towards the armies of Aragorn, but a great wind comes from the west and blows the cloud away into bits, and he is never able to reform in any way to even control one orc. He had already been “killed” a few times and gets weaker every time. If he never made the ring he would still a have a lot of power and probably have a few more “lives” per say
Love your channel man!!! It's really refreshing to see a RUclipsr commenting on movies not just by way of giving opinion but, perhaps even more by your handling the matter in an empirical, easily trackable manner. Props to your efforts for sure!!!
I hate you can reaaaallyy feel the studio interferance on this movies in general
Forcing a trilogy, not giving Jackson time and also forcing the love triangle.
Again been said many times the hobbit is the simplest book of them all and it kept it rather light hearted. Activly following the heroes journey schtick.
This could have been very interesting if they gave Jackson the time because you can see some good things in these movies. It is just filled with useless padding and characters.
God I had forgotten how offensively silly this movie actually is
Its like this sweet spot of lame and endearing, especially when you compare it to.... it has heart at least, and this commentator give it some fair marks. But it be a lie if we said it was an improvement.
Early 2010s may seem shallow and tacky, but it sure as shit wasnt woke authoritarianism. "This is whats good cinema now, disagree and ur racist"
Oh I agree wholeheartedly. 😅 As a colossal Tolkien fan, and generally a purist where it comes to film adaptations of books, these movies actually did offend me. And outrage me - and enrage me. I don't know which is greater my disappointment or my fury.
I was facepalming the entire film.
It had good things but...
The Hobbit trilogy is fantastic if you condense it from 9 hours to 2/4 hours. That's what is so good about it. I have stopped seeing the 3 movies and now just see Fan Edits.
Damn, I have to close that night. I'm slightly hoping it'll be less than 2 hours long because then I think I can watch it in it's entirety. Super excited. The Rings of Power series retrospective was awesome.
reading this comment as we approach 3 hours
the side door was mentioned as secret that would allow Bilbo to get in undetected. The front door would have lead you directly to the dragon. At least thats what i understood.
I’m so sad we have to wait for the next autopsy. 10/10 brilliant video
Bilbo pulls the lever:
Kronk pulls the wrong lever:
Genius.
Hey! Thanks for this birthday present, RFT! Should be quite a jolly good romp! 👍
No joke, this video premieres on my birthday! 😂
🎈 happy barfday 🎈
🤤🎂🍡🍩🍭🍨
🍧🍬🍦🥧🤢🤮
@@atomicdancer Thankssss 🤮
It’s the 4th of July holiday here and I am enjoying some down time which affords me the time to watch this amazing analysis *AGAIN.* Cheers RFT and thank you.
I, like so many others, have been looking forward to this for quite some time. Ironically I just finished my week long endevor of watching all of the extended edition Hobbit movies 2 days ago so this is really great timing ( It seems I missed your "upcoming" announcement ) so this is a nice bit of serendipity. Anyway thank you so much for taking the time to watch these movies, write your script and post this video on RUclips. I'm excited
With the Morgul arrow...they could have just changed it to a poisoned arrow.
The One Ring has something of its own will and a desire to be reunited with Sauron. It too can betray anyone else who wears it. That’s the best explanation I had for why Bilbo took off the Ring while talking to Smaug
Actually those gems of “starlight” are actually gems that were presumably brought over from beleriand by thranduil father or his wife’s father. They were given to the dwarves to be fashioned into a necklace for thranduil’s wife. But his wife was captured and killed in gundabad before it was completed. Thranduil went to retrieve them, but as we saw the dwarves requested more payment than previously agreed. Thranduil refused and thus his pit of anger was formed as he was so stricken with grief.
@Random Film Talk
I’m only 55 minutes in, so perhaps you take note of this later on, but I don’t think Thranduil doesn’t care to preserve nature or Middle Earth, I think he’s in denial due to battle trauma. Remember, he was in the war that lead to the dead marshes, so he’s definitely traumatized and just trying to keep to himself, even if it’s detrimental. So that adds to some interesting aspects to his character layering
I was gonna say the same thing. His father and a huge number of the Greenwood elves died in that battle and he was there, so it absolutely makes sense that he would want to protect his people from war. The same goes for him turning back at the beginning of the first film. He was going to help the dwarves, but couldn't bring himself to lead his people into danger. So it's actually a big character moment when he gets involved in the battle of the five armies. They don't explore his PTSD in the films though, so he just comes across as a selfish douche :(
That's a good point
Seeing this in theaters even with the cool line the cliffhanger felt like such a blueball. At the time I was under the impression that Smaug would have a bigger role in the final movie since he was being hyped up as the big bad since the 1st movie. Instead killing Smaug felt rushed and tacked on like an afterthought and they needed to get it out of the way so the rest of the plot of the 3rd movie could take place. They should have had the razing of laketown/Smaug death at the end of this movie instead of at the beginning of 5 Armies.
Yep. I was under the exact same impression
Absolutely. I still remember the giant groan from the audience when it ended so abruptly
Hello! I was thinking of a scenes where legolas appears to be unaware of orcs behind him. So in the first scene where he is saved by axe throw he stabs orc in front of him. At least to me it looks like he is struggling to remove his blade as orc is holding his hand/sword. That might imply that he is aware he is about to get hit in the back but can't do anything about it. Possibly out of pride pretends he doesnt notice he was saved coz how could he allow himself be saved by a dwarf. The 2nd situation when orc is about to shoot him in the back maybe he was well aware that Tauriel was there to help him just as later on she knew that legolas was following her. He is after all very fond of her skills ect. Anyway great vid too bad i was a bit late for premiere. Just wanted to add my little something that came to my mind as i was watching.
I noticed also that he did a spin around, noticed the orc behind him falling, continued said spin so he could draw and fire off another arrow at the next target, meaning he probably had some awareness of the situation, maybe just not how close he came to death till the last minute
Also also I agree that it appears the Orc in the front wraps up his arm by the wrist, preventing him from reacting to the one behind him, perhaps a dying attempt to keep him in place for a killing blow
when using rivers for cargo in the medieval period, you would sail down rivers in a barge, however, you would use a road and horses to go up river. rivers travel down hill. going DOWN, the power of the river, carries you, and your cargo. going UP however, if you tried to use a barge, you would be fighting the river the whole way. it can only be done in a very slow moving river. Amazon, Mississippi, lower nile. so the down the rapids/waterfalls in barrels, but then needing to use a road to travel up is normal.
Canals are dug for mills. and these often have long flat areas, with horsepaths specifically built next to the canal, allowing horses to pull barges up and down.
Speaking of Thrain - he was completely removed from the theatrical version of the movie. I don't remember this sequnce and all and Thrain seems to have been cut during the post-production - in thetrical version the scene with Sauron features only Gandalf, no THrain there. So it seems they eventually arrived at the same conclusion as you regarding Thrain being involved. The whole sequence is still highly problematic, though.
@ 2:48:59 As a student jeweler, I would like also to point out that molten gold does not look like low viscosity gold paint, it is bright yellow/white
The contradictory worldbuilding regarding what a necromancer is and if they even exist came from the writers of this trilogy trying to “improve” Tolkien’s writings, which usually doesn’t work too well, because normally the original writer is much better at writing than the people taking issue with the writing. In this particular case, Tolkien used the word necromancy or Necromancer as a more general term for dark magic and a practitioner of dark magic rather than the more traditional and specific definition of someone able to raise the dead. For him, Sauron was a Necromancer because he could turn himself into or summon various undead creatures. And he also could access the Shadow Realm. In this movie, the writers felt for some reason they needed to fix this and gave the Nazgul a backstory that has them being specifically raised from the dead. But it doesn’t really fit in with anything even in the Jackson’s LOTR trilogy. None of the Nazgul ever died and they did not have tombs. Their physical forms slowly wasted away, thanks to the Rings Sauron gave them, which probably happened before even the Last Alliance, considering they may have likely been Numenorean kings. And the Witchking was defeated by the men of the north. But he simply fled back to Mordor. And he actually accomplished his task, which was to topple the northern kingdom of Arnor. He wasn’t even at Dol Guldur with his master. He was down south, making trouble for Gondor and preparing for his master’s return to Mordor.
I don’t think lore breaks are necessarily bad, but this one was ill-thought out and ended up making more problems than it supposedly solved. Like how did Radagast even see the wraith? Only a practitioner of dark magic or someone with a talisman that conferred that power onto the bearer, such as Frodo with the One Ring, could do that. And I have no idea where that tomb is supposed to be. The kingdom of Arnor encompassed the Shire. So either the Men of the North dragged the bodies of the Nazgul halfway across Middle Earth and over a mountain range to bury them near Beorn’s house for some weird reason or Gandalf went all the way back to the vicinity of the Shire. It could be the Barrow Downs. But that’s not what they call it and it’s not what it looks like. Also, the prophecy about no man being able to kill the chief Nazgul was uttered upon the Witchking’s defeat. I don’t know how anybody could say that if men had already killed him.
Radagast is a Maia. He can see the spirit realm just fine.
@@DIEGhostfish In the Hobbit, it is very clear that Gandalf cannot see Bilbo, which he would have been able to, if what you say is true, as he is a Maia. After death, the souls of men did not stay in Middle Earth. They left it, and it’s explicitly said that only Eru knows where they went. The Shadow Realm, on the other hand, was not a spiritual realm in the sense we think of it, but a prison for the Nazgul, created by the dark arts that none of the good guys would have dabbled in. Legolas could see the men Isildur cursed. But the Elves of Mirkwood could not see Bilbo with the One Ring on, indicating that the Shadow Realm was not a place that the souls of humans went to after death. Tom Bombadil was the only one confirmed to be able to see Frodo when he wore the One Ring. It can’t be explained because we don’t know what Tom Bombadil is, although it probably has to do with the fact that Tom was the antithesis of Sauron, a being who regarded power and control over others as a burden rather than being enticed by it. He is the only one in Middle Earth that can be said of, though.
You've done a great job with this analysis/review of these movies, it was both deep in content and entertaining. Hope to see some more good stuff like this in the future.
I also hope that with time you'll grow your subscriber count, because you deserve it.
@@Kernwadi would be difficult since the skills or charisma are not there
Long videos are great. Never apologize for being thorough.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I fall asleep watching your videos sometimes, but like in a good way, as in you pointing out everything wrong with this shit and putting the writers in they're place definitely relaxes and mellows me out
That Arkenstone sure seems important. I can't wait to see what the dwarves do with it by the end of the triogy.
51:50 so this is where Rings of Power got its plotline of contrasting the lifespan of dwarves with Elves for whom decades are nothing😂 (the Durin & Elrond contrived initial conflict with no consequences)
And I made the mistake of thinking those showrunners could intelligently create an original plotpoint through judicious use of their brains & Tolkien's lore alone😂; they had help from the Desolation of Smaug.
I can't wait for the Battle of the 5 armies to see how much Payne & McKay ripped off that as well😂.
I also can't wait for Rings of Power season 2 to get more memberberries
Well, good job making that barrel scene enjoyable. I would not have thought it possible. At least it was good for something.
51:07
Nope entirely invented by the movie.
Now in the book Balin briefly explains when the Wood Elves treated them so harshly.
If I recall correctly the quote goes something like this.
“The feud between Elves and Dwarves goes back to the second Age. Elves are slow to forget and Dwarves slow to forgive.”
In the Silmarillion we get a history of that feud and it had nothing to do with Mithril but the Simarils themselves.
Mithril was never this Uber magic metal that was invented outside the books.
Another option:
What if at the beginning Gandalf was the mastermind behind it all?
Having failed to get Thrain to return to Erebor, Gandalf tracks down Thorin. Hires or puts spells on the men in the Prancing Pony to be threatening.
Gandalf (knowing black speech) could have forged the black speech page with the bounty for Thorin on it... Can Thorin even read black speech? It could just be some old rorschach painting Gandalf had.
ALL to convince Thorin to go back to Erebor.
This would be awesom
Could work for a film 'adaptation' for sure. Very interesting and not like a major twist changing the movie utterly but twist enough to be engaging!
It doesnt follow the books in anyway. But thats just the tolkien book fan in me complaining. It is an adaptation afterall.
So Darth Gandalf... 😳😂
Nah it would completely defeat the point of lord of the ring.
The lord of the rings films came first of what happens after the hobbit and the hobbit films is what happens before lord of the rings.
@@rosiehawtrey The original Hobbit story was already so ruined by this trilogy why not make this "Gandalf" pure evil?
WHY didn't the writers motivate the Beast from the very beginning with defying Azog? The whole "I hope there's no dwarves here" thing is so COMPLETELY unnecessary, it even muddies the water more.
Not to mention, Beorn is a beastman, he probably could SMELL the unwashed dwarves from 2 miles away.
Let's assume the plot unfolds the same way up until the dwarves come outta the house, Beorn loses it, takes a swing, Gandalf mentions "we need your help avoiding Azog", Beorn stops his axe inches from Thorin's face and asks "Azog?". Wouldn't that make more sense? I guess we could just cut the whole signal thing and the joke itself, having Beorn just attack the dwarves the moment he comes back to his house and Gandalf mentioning Azog right before he bifurcates any of the 13 halfwits.
Man, I've forgotten so much about these movies. Goes to show how forgettable they are. The part where Bilbo become un-invisible in the chambre with Smaug works way better if he remains invisible. In the book and in the animated movie (which is way better than this whole trilogy), there's a function to the dialogue between Bilbo and Smaug that only works if he's invisible.
There's no good reason for Smaug not to kill Bilbo as soon as he sees him, so Smaug keeps Bilbo talking so he can work out where Billbo is based on sound and smell. Bilbo wants to keep Smaug talking so that he can find out as much about Smaug as he can and maybe discover a weakness. Which he does. There was no silly rumour of Smaug having a loose scale, Bilbo discovered Smaug's weakness by clever wordplay and using his vanity against him. The whole thing is a game of wits between cat and mouse, and it's vital that the cat not know exactly where the mouse is.
Also, a point about the wine. My brother (who watches more LOTR lore videos than I do and has read the Hobbit more recently than me) tells me the wine actually originated in Dorwinion. Dorwinion was a land far to the east inhabited by both men and elves, and their economy revolved largely around growing wine for export. Laketown bought it from them and sold it on to the Mirkwood elves. That makes a lot more sense than Laketown producing the wine themselves, considering Laketown has neither the space nor the climate for vineyards.
Edit: Of course, Dorwinion is irrelevant to the trilogy since it's never mentioned so we're left to assume the Laketowners have a vineyard somewhere.
Watching Benedict Cumberbatch crawl around with a drawn out menacing voice is fuckin hilarious 😂😂
Literally been counting down for this to drop. I love what you did with the first one so much