Another important lesson from Ocarina of Time: No matter how you may plan your adventures, set clues, and require certain items to proceed, it is entirely possible that the PCs will do some weird squats, backflip through a door, and then kill your final boss before the game even really begins.
I need to re-watch this video like 6 more times to have it fully sink in. I think this is the secret sauce for all the stuff you make for DnD. Fantastic.
Same. This episode was detail heavy and had such a great concept. Sometimes a pdf helps solidify the described ideas. The Diablo and Dragons episode is still my favorite!
A useful hint is that because you have a villain with a goal, who knows how to get to it, you also have the opportunity to have the villain react to the party's action and change strategies if they don't play into his idea of having them get the items for them.
I've been using Majora's mask as my inspiration. The 3 day cycle is surprisingly effective, killing the party then sending them back to day 1 worked better than I hoped.
@@SarinTheBaron Happy too! I'll have to make a video to explain it properly lol Okay so I've kept alot of elements from Majora's, the 3 day cycle being one, but also the world progressively getting more corrupted in some way. The players once they retrieve and return a certain Artefect that was stolen from each of the locations "locks in" whatever they did on the 3 day cycle they returned it The bittersweet factor is they save the area but on the reset the people won't have ever known.
Fun story - I ran a campaign in 5e from level 1 to 10 which took about 7 months to complete that was based on Zelda! While Link ran around to collect the Triforce pieces, the party was tasked with acquiring other relics which would be needed to power the Sages. Was a fantastic game!
Currently running a Zelda campaign set in the far future, where the party is attempting to re-open the portal to the Twilight Realm via magic mirrors scattered about. It's a ton of fun!
Curse of Strahd really is probably the best pre written module they've made because of this reason. It really is similar to the OOT structure. It's a shame they seem to have never learned from that success, as most of their other modules really lack that sense of inter-connectivity.
I think a way that makes it clear how OoT structure works so well is to try randomizer mods, It really shows you how mechantically well the game is designed for you to find means to progress even if items are shifted all over the place.
tl;dw: connect lots of the smaller conflicts and challenges the party will encounter to the central tension of the campaign world so that no matter what direction the players go they are headed in the right direction. I learned this from Dragon of Icespire Peak where all of the worldbuilding is encountered through the various starting quests found on the village quest board: everybody's problems end up stemming from the dragon's arrival in the region. Orcs afoot? They were displaced by the dragon. Manticore in the area? Displaced by the dragon. Supply chains disrupted? Dragon. Someone's five year old got a splinter? Believe it or not, dragon!
This is essentially why I think Curse of Strahd is the best 5e campaign by a long shot. While other 'official' 5e campaigns have villains who are being summoned/woken, or disrupting the status quo, or working from the shadows. Strahd is the ruler of the lands and he enforces the oppressive status quo that you go around solving.
Yeah. For a non-D&D example of this, there's also the Sega Genesis game Shining Force. (It has a hot young blonde protagonist who likes to show off his toned legs, and an underground ice temple, so it's very accessible for Zelda fans).
100% Tabletops are mostly just dialogue and character roleplay. Having a strong villain changes everything... it almost necessarily enhances the story. The evil has a face and a DM to bring them to life. This NPC is then tied to basically every single thing in the setting.
I also like that if the antagonist is much older, he's had time to develop and spread rumors and urban legends! Hearing about a fabled mace that banishes all unholy creatures it touches from local people in different cities in an area makes it sound like a weapon from the gods! In reality, it's the liches unholy mace which he can't reach because it's kept safe on hallowed grounds and thus need to trick the players in to getting it for him :3
It is perfect for tabletop roleplay no doubt about it. My campaign starts when it is almost time for link to awaken from his 7 year slumber(few months before it). My players get their quests from Sheik, same as Link does. They are going through almost every location link has to go through in the game, trying to make it easier for him to cleanse every temple. For example: last session they actually managed to kill one of ganondorfs surogate mothers in the spirit temple. It is so much fun to try to adapt game dungeons for tabletop roleplay. I also made a new big city since the one in the game gets overrun by redeads and monsters. just for players to have a home to come to after every adventure. And since none of them played any zelda game, I just mix some things from other games aswell. works really well with WFRP4th edition system (i know that rules in that system are tightly bound to the Warhammer lore but i managed to make sense of it) For example all temples are a source of magic in hyrule from the sacred realm, so in order to make magic chaotic and ,more often then not, hard to cast, I told them that Ganondorf invading sacred realm resulted in temples corruption thus making all magic unstable. I could write here all day but i guess this covers the base of it.
Dude this was excellent. As long as there's a BBEG or similar thing, locations all need help with problems related to them/it, the solutions to which are in other locations with their own problems. It's like a circle of fifths that makes grand relevancy super doable without stressing.
There's also Hyrule field, which acts as a hub, granting each of the major areas equal access. Something I like doing, though, is offer different solutions, with different ethics. Like with the herbal cure problem. There are the herbs at the cemetery, as well as some questionable herbs in the town with the dog problem. Risk the undead, or gamble on the "safe" herbs that does "who knows what else."
My headcanon for the first LoZ game goes like this. The other 8 dungeon bosses aren't on Ganon's side. Before being captured, Zelda cleverly scattered pieces of the Triforce of Wisdom deep within those ancient temples, crypts, and caves knowing the eldritch demons would "guard" them from Ganon. While Ganon has dominated the land above, he still can't get to the Triforce pieces being guarded by these eldritch monsters. He has the Triforce of Power, but he lacks the courage to risk his own life trying to defeat these monsters. A mysterious young warrior emerges from the oppressed people and hearing Zelda's psychic call for help, he courageously delves into the shadows where Ganon dare not go, to retrieve Zelda's Triforce pieces. Inadvertently, Link gains or awakens his own Triforce of Courage and together with Zelda and her restored Triforce of Wisdom, they can subdue Ganon. I just think this is a great alternative to the typical "evil chain of the command" that so much fantasy fiction utilizes.
Oh, that’s pretty interesting! I have heard of similar ideas before, but not often, so it is pretty rare and unique. But it’s the concept of a boss or antagonist simply being a force of nature or against the protagonist due to their nature or instinct and not necessarily due to malice and intentional obstruction.
From a narrative sense, what you described is the actual story of the game. Zelda split the Triforce of Wisdom intentionally in these specific dungeons to keep them safe from Ganon. While Ganon sent his minions, none managed to reach the resting place of the Triforce pieces. I wouldn't be surprised if the bosses were royal guardians of sorts rather than beings under Ganon's control.
@@HighPriestFuneral Went to reread the original manual. The labyrinths seem inspired by old european myths, with things like centaurs, hydra, unicorns, giant snakes and spiders, ghosts, etc. Whatever intelligence they have, I doubt the bosses care about Ganon's goals or Hylian politics. These are basically wild demigods, like Leviathan and Behemoth. Kinda screwed up when you think about it, how Link just goes and kills these ancient "last of their kind" titans.
Great video. The Zelda series has many excellent examples for DM's: story and encounter structure, monster design, quest items that are more than just plot coupons, practical weapons with helpful secondary uses, pc and npc motivations, dungeon layout, room and puzzle challenges, and fights, whether against minions, mini or regular bosses, or BBEG's. Nearly the whole spread. I don't think there's another series as close to the feel of good D&D (or whatever) as this, certainly not all those xp grinding games that look but don't play like ttrpg's. And you break it down very well.
I'm working on a campaign right now and decided to use OoT as a template, so this is a godsend. I appreciate the hard work you put into your videos and the knowledge you bring to the format is second to none. Thanks a million, and keep up the great work!
Another well done and thought-provoking video. Bravo! I've never played any of the LoZ games, but they seem to share a similarity to Sierra Games Hero Quest series, which I did play all of. In these type of games, the players should go around (everywhere) and collect (every) item/talk to (every) NPC. Again, I don't know about LoZ, but in HQ there was a strong incentive to "do everything" and not much, if any, penalty for taking a really long time. Mr Colville talks about feeling frustrated by players whose instinct is to "say everything" to every NPC to (hopefully) "unlock" the NPC by saying the "right" thing. In other words, players can bring bad or wrong habits from these games to D&D, namely, they don't treat NPCs realistically but more like a vending machine that can be unlocked by trying an infinite number of keys. So, musing here, but to what degree does making the PCs "McGuffin couriers" condition them to treat D&D as the wrong sort of genre?
I don't have much experience to draw on behind the DM screen but I think an important consideration on the "McGuffin courier" problem is that being a courier isn't "what" you're doing, it's "why." Getting all of the McGuffins to the right places is how you complete the final objective, but the players aren't spending their time being couriers, the fact that they're acting as couriers is resulting in them finding new problems to solve, new McGuffins, new people to meet, new places to explore, and new ways to solve existing problems. Their time is spent engaging with the content and story they find as a result of seeking out the McGuffins, and even better if these problems are intricate stories all their own, to be solved by the players however they like. The fun isn't in the destination, but in the journey. Also useful to consider is that NPCs in TTRPGs don't act like NPCs in video games. If the party is messing around trying to befriend some blacksmith because they want to get all the cool stuff and discounts the blacksmith can offer, they might get criticised for wasting time trying to befriend a random person instead of, you know, solving the big and serious problem threatening everyone, such as an oppressive tyrant killing people, or a cult trying to summon an ancient being of great power. Plus, the more time they waste on these little video game completionist side objectives, the more time they give the BBEG(s) to react to their progress and undo it. Make it clear to them by second-hand NPC complaints and first-hand experiences of losing progress that this isn't a video game, they can make friends and chill after the orphanage/city/country/world is saved.
Utterly the opposite to a lot of Final Fantasy games (and many others). They always felt so noticeable when you were doing side quests instead of the main story. Though an exception I can think of is getting Vincent in FFVII as that felt like main story, lore drop, and side quest in one. Another thing to suggest for D&D or Pathfinder inspiration is the tv show Locke & Key, especially with regards to magic items relating to story progression and world interaction. Mostly that magic items are not stats on a character. They interact with the world or the world interacts with them. They have, or can develop, relationships to places, objects, or people, whether mechanically or in lore.
I made a dungeon inspired by OOT. Doors had to be opened by an arrow the same color as the eye on the door but the eyes were only open during certain times of the day. Every time you switched rooms the day night cycle would switch. A room would allow them to switch the cycle so that they could allow access to those eyes on the correct cycle
Bruh, this video is absolute gold. I've watched it 4 or 5 times now and I keep finding new inspiration. The directional items piece in particular is a fantastic way to make the story hooks concrete and mechanically relevant. Hate that I missed you and the crew at Jeffcon. Looked like an absolute blast!
This had a funny timing. A couple of days ago I sat down and hammered out a basic campaing structure based on aLttP, OoT and TP. I really liked how OoT and aLttP technically allow one to run after the plot coupons in any order, but in practice have a recommended order that can be sequence breaked. Like you said, I also liked the basic plot structure, altough I wanted to make it a bit more involved with the Ganon expy conquering Hyrule during the first stretch like in Lamp of Destiny. I also think that the basic formula of each plot coupon is a pretty good distillation of the typical RPG adventure, and the placement of the dungeons has a good mix of new places and backtracking to familiar locations. May the path of the Hero lead to the Triforce!
This is fantastic stuff. Sometimes worldbuilding a campaign can fall too far in the spectrum between a big open world with few connections or hooks and a railroad. This flow of a campaign makes a world feel open-world, but keeps the characters moving forward on track with the story.
Hey Baron, first, thanks again for you video :) Since you talk about this subject, if you've never seen it already, I would very strongly suggest you to watch "OCARINA OF TIME - A Masterclass In Subtext" by Good Blood. Very high quality content there, just like the game it's about. You will love it. It would probably inspire you about making a video on world building regarding indirect storytelling through gameplay elements. These methods have also been used in other games, like the Witcher 3 and Hollow Knight for instance. I can't encourage you enough to watch that video. It really is a masterpiece of intellectual content. It has taught me a great deal on how to write better heuristic stories for games, which is hard to do for something like TTRPGs.
Oh thank God you just made this video. I'm literally scouring thr corners of RUclips for Zelda D&D stuff because I'm trying to run an Ocarina of Time Campaign for my friends who've never played the game. I've watched so many lore and trivia videos about Ocarina of Time... Truth be told, I actually want to run Majora's Mask more than anything. But I want the players at the table to know the journey of the Hero of Time before we go into the tragedy of Majora's Mask. And I'd also like to get practice running Zelda D&D *before* attempting the 3 day cycle time travel shenanigans of Majora. And its just such a good game, I want to do it justice, get my feet wet first with Ocarina, round off the edges before I accidentally ruin Majora's Mask for my friends 😅
I used oot to inspire my D&D world years ago. Gods were based on the game’s iconic characters and I made anagrams of their names for my pantheon names. It was sooo helpful to create a meaningful homebrew pantheon without spending endless time to it.
I'm surprised everyone's so down with this idea of structuring your campaign like a video game. The thing I like most about TTRPGs is that they're nothing like video games.
Interesting points... Now I'm curious, what, if any, are your opinions on using Chrono Trigger as a template compared to Ocarina of Time (seeing as both involve temporal shenanigans, and are quite the perfect examples of their craft)?
Chrono Trigger is also great as a template for the same reason mentioned in this video: almost all of the quests through the time period relate to Lavos and your need to stop him. Works well for D&D too since there’s a myriad of points you can “succeed” but failure doesn’t end the story, just pushes it forward
Ocarina of time is one of my favorite games of all time. The forest temple is the basis of the first dungeon my party will come across as a matter of fact. OoT's dungeons are a big inspiration to me to take the time to craft dungeons in the game that I feel like doesn't have enough dungeons even when dungeons is in the name of the game: dungeons and dragons. sometimes it just feels like dragons and dragons and I look to OoT to help give me that inspiration and feel of a dungeon. Maybe a dungeon has a purpose, like the shadow temple. It was a torture grounds for the royal family to send traitors to to be interrogated by the Sheikah. I feel like dungeons should have a deep lore connecting purpose more than just "heres somewhere to explore and fight your way through for a couple of hours". Love your content and Im so glad you made this video. Normally I lurk, but I had to say something.
Wild! The Forest Temple was the catalyst that improved my dungeoncrafting, too. It made me realize I'd been envisioning my dungeons as barren, monochromatic, grid-based spaces; empty boxes connected by anonymous corridors. Even notable features like staircases, catwalks, or changes in elevation were all 5-foot measurements and 90° angles. The Forest Temple inspired me to add character to my dungeons. Architectural motifs, predominant colors & materials, decorative flourishes reinforcing the themes, etc. No longer just "a 20x30 foot room with a table, two chairs, and some crates", I created "style guides" (for lack of a better term) with evocative terms I could plug into my descriptions. Like pink-veined marble walls, vaulted ceilings with inlaid star-charts, rugs and tapestries with reoccurring patterns; soon I started adding sounds, smells, temperature changes. Both my players and I discovered new levels of engagement. It really expanded my worldbuilding options. It made me a better DM . Thanks, Saria!
@James Joy forest temple is the best track in the game with the shadow temple coming in close. That mystery and coming of age vibe (it's the first thing link adventures into after becoming an adult) to find his friend from childhood is bittersweet. I love it dearly
@@Chadventure_Animated yes, I've always thought of it as an inversion (not technically, but emotionally) of Saria's song. But when it's time to roll for Initiative I *always* here the Song Of Storms!
Very interesting. I'm sorry to say I've never played D&D. I'm a 90s kid and by the time I had my group of friends in school, all we cared about was video games like Ocarina of Time and Pokemon. In retrospect, I wish we did get into D&D as well.
Well milord, I’ve finally started writing my first campaign. I used my desk as a continent, rolled my d30 and largest d20 for two capitals, and smaller dice for villages, towns, forts and mines. Using your advice about thinking of trade routes and value added goods, I came up with resources and value adds for most of the towns. Now I just need to nail down characters (and their players) to populate it and figure out what kind of adventure to have… There will be vampires
With the two capitals of different sizes, and "villages, towns, mines" this sounds an awful lot like Tsarist Russia to me. That could be a great setting, though, quite honestly.
I absolutely love this video and I have listened to this multiple times and each time I get a new idea. A beautiful dissection keep making amazing content
These are all great points. Hbomberguy made a video about Fallout: New Vegas that went into something similar. The most interesting places in the game world have side quests that point to and from each other, so even if you miss one quest giver asking you to go to vault A you might find something in vault B or village C that mentions vault A, and if you run into that initial quest giver later, you may discover you have already either fulfilled or invalidated the quest they had for you, changing how that person and maybe their community functions. Quests shouldn't look like a bunch of lines or one winding thread, they should look like an interconnected web.
This video is fantastic advice. I've been running games in a similar manner ever since I stumbled across the 5x5 method. Google it, it will pay huge dividends. No matter where the PC's are there is something to do that actually makes sense. Tying it all to the BBG, now that I hadn't thought of so the next step to a better campaign is revealed. Thanks!
I've actually got a LOZ campeign in the works the sage mediations are all artifact level items that actually DO something. The shadow mediation let's you cast illusion and necromancy spells as a 10th level caster
It's been recently discovered what the medallion powers would have done, thanks to beta build data being discovered. Spirit medallion let you turn into a fairy and Shadow made you invisible to enemies.
This more than anything shows how damn good of a series Zelda is. Your dnd example was great and made sense as a comparison but I literally tuned out while you were explaining it. I was so bored, I couldn't care less about these trite concepts like vampires and haunted graveyards but when they're put in the world of zelda they're engaging and memorable! I think the visuals and the gameplay helps that obviously but there's just something special about the legend of zelda man.
I ran a D&D 2nd (and soon after starting we switched to 3rd) edition campaign between 1999 and 2013. We played weekly in that campaign for 14 years. Was good. Characters betrayed and sacrificed Zelda and eventually found a way to turn Ganon into a dark god to rule the world for eternity.
This sounds like great advice for writing a module, and it could be a great campaign. But there are some potholes to watch for with this type of plot. 1. Ocarina, like most video games, has walls to prevent players from running off the rails. TTRPGs should normally not be designed this way. A wall in a video game is a critical component to directional puzzles. "Well, I can't go any further this way, so I guess the answer is elsewhere." TTRPGs are typically played to give players the freedom to go anywhere and do anything. Arbitrary, ill explained walls and cliffs will cheapen the experience (and aren't even that hard to bypass with D&D spells and skill checks). You have to think of other ways of communicating to players when their a course of action will be totally off the plot, hopefully without destroying immersion. 2. Plans are worthless, but planning is indispensible. Pouring hours into a plot that mimicks the structure of Ocarina will almost surely come immediately to ruin as players will elect a choice you didn't consider in your prep. That's why plans are worthless. You don't want a script, because it will implode within the first few choices players make. But knowing the plot by thoroughly writing out the base concepts this way gives you something more valuable: familiarity with the plot elements. When you know the mcguffin flowers only grow around the town afflicted by zombies, you also have enough information to improvise *why* they only grow there and can use it to adapt the plot in a live session when the party devises an alternative strategy you didn't anticipate. Use this kind of prep as a crib sheet for yourself and avoid trying to coerce players into stepping through specific hoops the way video games do.
Something cool about Ganondorf is he wasn't always all powerful, he needed schemes to overthrow King Hyrule and in fact he swore loyalty to him to trick him. Every race was in war with one another, and Ganondorf went to war because he wanted the best for his people that was suffering the inhospitable Gerudo dessert.
@@DungeonMasterpiece Nothing in specific. While I was playing the game I noticed how well long hard hunts against creatures with massive health pools represented monsters.
This is all great advice. However, one thing I would like to note, as someone who draws a _lot_ of inspiration from Zelda for his campaigns, is that using items in the way described here is a lot trickier in D&D than it is in a video game. Without videogamey things like invisible walls and unskippable cutscenes and with the players' creativity, party size, and vast array of spells, trying to pull off Zelda's lock-and-key approach to campaign and world structure - or even dungeon design - can be very difficult. Something like the hookshot probably isn't that helpful for your party unless everyone gets one, and it's likely redundant when you have characters that can fly or teleport. While the DM can technically nix anything the players try, that doesn't mean they should.
Will you do one of your videos about how video games can improve Dungeons & Dragons will you talk about majora's mask and making strong emotion payoffs like the sun and moon quest does
Is there an official source that says Ganondorf knew about Zelda and Link because of a prophecy? As I recall, and correct me if I'm wrong, Ganondorf only realized what was going on as he spotted them at the window. Soon he learned of Link going around collecting Stones, he targeted the Royal Family instead and set a trap for Link. He didn't know however that the Triforce would be split in three. Hence why I don't think there was a prophecy. He just knew Zelda was on to him and she sent Link out on his mission and had the support of the Sheikah.
Maybe pause every now and then for a bit of processing time - the modern editing style of eliminating every single gap makes information dense material such as this hard for some to follow.
Another important lesson from Ocarina of Time:
No matter how you may plan your adventures, set clues, and require certain items to proceed, it is entirely possible that the PCs will do some weird squats, backflip through a door, and then kill your final boss before the game even really begins.
Gotta love glitches.
A lesson they learned and embraced with Breath of the Wild
Hyaa.
@@Myzelfawhat did they do to incorporate that lesson?
I need to re-watch this video like 6 more times to have it fully sink in. I think this is the secret sauce for all the stuff you make for DnD. Fantastic.
I wanted to comment similar :D
Getting all the details is a must!
Same. This episode was detail heavy and had such a great concept.
Sometimes a pdf helps solidify the described ideas. The Diablo and Dragons episode is still my favorite!
@@MattSmith83 a good one!
I often replay his one on nobility and guilds
A useful hint is that because you have a villain with a goal, who knows how to get to it, you also have the opportunity to have the villain react to the party's action and change strategies if they don't play into his idea of having them get the items for them.
I've been using Majora's mask as my inspiration. The 3 day cycle is surprisingly effective, killing the party then sending them back to day 1 worked better than I hoped.
Dude! That is really cool, mind elaborating on that a bit?
@@SarinTheBaron Happy too! I'll have to make a video to explain it properly lol
Okay so I've kept alot of elements from Majora's, the 3 day cycle being one, but also the world progressively getting more corrupted in some way.
The players once they retrieve and return a certain Artefect that was stolen from each of the locations "locks in" whatever they did on the 3 day cycle they returned it
The bittersweet factor is they save the area but on the reset the people won't have ever known.
@@TapiTalk needed video! I really want to know
Fun story - I ran a campaign in 5e from level 1 to 10 which took about 7 months to complete that was based on Zelda! While Link ran around to collect the Triforce pieces, the party was tasked with acquiring other relics which would be needed to power the Sages. Was a fantastic game!
Currently running a Zelda campaign set in the far future, where the party is attempting to re-open the portal to the Twilight Realm via magic mirrors scattered about. It's a ton of fun!
This reminds me of the Curse of Strahd map of NPC interactions and how EVERY character in barovia is connected to Strahd von Zarovich in some way
Curse of Strahd really is probably the best pre written module they've made because of this reason. It really is similar to the OOT structure. It's a shame they seem to have never learned from that success, as most of their other modules really lack that sense of inter-connectivity.
I think a way that makes it clear how OoT structure works so well is to try randomizer mods, It really shows you how mechantically well the game is designed for you to find means to progress even if items are shifted all over the place.
tl;dw: connect lots of the smaller conflicts and challenges the party will encounter to the central tension of the campaign world so that no matter what direction the players go they are headed in the right direction. I learned this from Dragon of Icespire Peak where all of the worldbuilding is encountered through the various starting quests found on the village quest board: everybody's problems end up stemming from the dragon's arrival in the region. Orcs afoot? They were displaced by the dragon. Manticore in the area? Displaced by the dragon. Supply chains disrupted? Dragon. Someone's five year old got a splinter? Believe it or not, dragon!
This is essentially why I think Curse of Strahd is the best 5e campaign by a long shot. While other 'official' 5e campaigns have villains who are being summoned/woken, or disrupting the status quo, or working from the shadows. Strahd is the ruler of the lands and he enforces the oppressive status quo that you go around solving.
He is basically Adult Link Ganondorf
Yeah. For a non-D&D example of this, there's also the Sega Genesis game Shining Force. (It has a hot young blonde protagonist who likes to show off his toned legs, and an underground ice temple, so it's very accessible for Zelda fans).
100%
Tabletops are mostly just dialogue and character roleplay. Having a strong villain changes everything... it almost necessarily enhances the story. The evil has a face and a DM to bring them to life. This NPC is then tied to basically every single thing in the setting.
I also like that if the antagonist is much older, he's had time to develop and spread rumors and urban legends! Hearing about a fabled mace that banishes all unholy creatures it touches from local people in different cities in an area makes it sound like a weapon from the gods! In reality, it's the liches unholy mace which he can't reach because it's kept safe on hallowed grounds and thus need to trick the players in to getting it for him :3
Amazing video, I don't normally comment but this makes DnD campaign crafting so much more digestible for me
"you are where you need to be" is legitimate life advice.
It is perfect for tabletop roleplay no doubt about it. My campaign starts when it is almost time for link to awaken from his 7 year slumber(few months before it). My players get their quests from Sheik, same as Link does. They are going through almost every location link has to go through in the game, trying to make it easier for him to cleanse every temple. For example: last session they actually managed to kill one of ganondorfs surogate mothers in the spirit temple. It is so much fun to try to adapt game dungeons for tabletop roleplay. I also made a new big city since the one in the game gets overrun by redeads and monsters. just for players to have a home to come to after every adventure. And since none of them played any zelda game, I just mix some things from other games aswell. works really well with WFRP4th edition system (i know that rules in that system are tightly bound to the Warhammer lore but i managed to make sense of it) For example all temples are a source of magic in hyrule from the sacred realm, so in order to make magic chaotic and ,more often then not, hard to cast, I told them that Ganondorf invading sacred realm resulted in temples corruption thus making all magic unstable. I could write here all day but i guess this covers the base of it.
Dude this was excellent. As long as there's a BBEG or similar thing, locations all need help with problems related to them/it, the solutions to which are in other locations with their own problems. It's like a circle of fifths that makes grand relevancy super doable without stressing.
Awesome breakdown and analogy with the circle of fifths
You don't need to specify it came out in 1998. Almost died of old age here, sheesh.
There's also Hyrule field, which acts as a hub, granting each of the major areas equal access.
Something I like doing, though, is offer different solutions, with different ethics. Like with the herbal cure problem. There are the herbs at the cemetery, as well as some questionable herbs in the town with the dog problem. Risk the undead, or gamble on the "safe" herbs that does "who knows what else."
My headcanon for the first LoZ game goes like this. The other 8 dungeon bosses aren't on Ganon's side. Before being captured, Zelda cleverly scattered pieces of the Triforce of Wisdom deep within those ancient temples, crypts, and caves knowing the eldritch demons would "guard" them from Ganon. While Ganon has dominated the land above, he still can't get to the Triforce pieces being guarded by these eldritch monsters. He has the Triforce of Power, but he lacks the courage to risk his own life trying to defeat these monsters. A mysterious young warrior emerges from the oppressed people and hearing Zelda's psychic call for help, he courageously delves into the shadows where Ganon dare not go, to retrieve Zelda's Triforce pieces. Inadvertently, Link gains or awakens his own Triforce of Courage and together with Zelda and her restored Triforce of Wisdom, they can subdue Ganon. I just think this is a great alternative to the typical "evil chain of the command" that so much fantasy fiction utilizes.
Oh, that’s pretty interesting! I have heard of similar ideas before, but not often, so it is pretty rare and unique. But it’s the concept of a boss or antagonist simply being a force of nature or against the protagonist due to their nature or instinct and not necessarily due to malice and intentional obstruction.
From a narrative sense, what you described is the actual story of the game. Zelda split the Triforce of Wisdom intentionally in these specific dungeons to keep them safe from Ganon. While Ganon sent his minions, none managed to reach the resting place of the Triforce pieces. I wouldn't be surprised if the bosses were royal guardians of sorts rather than beings under Ganon's control.
@@HighPriestFuneral Went to reread the original manual. The labyrinths seem inspired by old european myths, with things like centaurs, hydra, unicorns, giant snakes and spiders, ghosts, etc. Whatever intelligence they have, I doubt the bosses care about Ganon's goals or Hylian politics. These are basically wild demigods, like Leviathan and Behemoth. Kinda screwed up when you think about it, how Link just goes and kills these ancient "last of their kind" titans.
@@saeklin Boy are you gonna be mad when you hear the plot of Shadow of the Colossus
Great video. The Zelda series has many excellent examples for DM's: story and encounter structure, monster design, quest items that are more than just plot coupons, practical weapons with helpful secondary uses, pc and npc motivations, dungeon layout, room and puzzle challenges, and fights, whether against minions, mini or regular bosses, or BBEG's. Nearly the whole spread. I don't think there's another series as close to the feel of good D&D (or whatever) as this, certainly not all those xp grinding games that look but don't play like ttrpg's. And you break it down very well.
"plot coupons"!
What a concise, perfect term! It gives me a new perspective! My life is different now!
Thank you, MemphiStig
@@jamesjoy7547 You're welcome, altho I can't take credit for the term. It's just a trope.
@@MemphiStig well, it's new to me.
So my point is still valid ☺️
Hey LISTEN! I'm glad we agree OoT to be one of the greatest games of all time. Also that ocarina solo at the end, priceless.
I'm working on a campaign right now and decided to use OoT as a template, so this is a godsend. I appreciate the hard work you put into your videos and the knowledge you bring to the format is second to none.
Thanks a million, and keep up the great work!
Another well done and thought-provoking video. Bravo!
I've never played any of the LoZ games, but they seem to share a similarity to Sierra Games Hero Quest series, which I did play all of. In these type of games, the players should go around (everywhere) and collect (every) item/talk to (every) NPC. Again, I don't know about LoZ, but in HQ there was a strong incentive to "do everything" and not much, if any, penalty for taking a really long time. Mr Colville talks about feeling frustrated by players whose instinct is to "say everything" to every NPC to (hopefully) "unlock" the NPC by saying the "right" thing. In other words, players can bring bad or wrong habits from these games to D&D, namely, they don't treat NPCs realistically but more like a vending machine that can be unlocked by trying an infinite number of keys.
So, musing here, but to what degree does making the PCs "McGuffin couriers" condition them to treat D&D as the wrong sort of genre?
I don't have much experience to draw on behind the DM screen but I think an important consideration on the "McGuffin courier" problem is that being a courier isn't "what" you're doing, it's "why." Getting all of the McGuffins to the right places is how you complete the final objective, but the players aren't spending their time being couriers, the fact that they're acting as couriers is resulting in them finding new problems to solve, new McGuffins, new people to meet, new places to explore, and new ways to solve existing problems. Their time is spent engaging with the content and story they find as a result of seeking out the McGuffins, and even better if these problems are intricate stories all their own, to be solved by the players however they like. The fun isn't in the destination, but in the journey.
Also useful to consider is that NPCs in TTRPGs don't act like NPCs in video games. If the party is messing around trying to befriend some blacksmith because they want to get all the cool stuff and discounts the blacksmith can offer, they might get criticised for wasting time trying to befriend a random person instead of, you know, solving the big and serious problem threatening everyone, such as an oppressive tyrant killing people, or a cult trying to summon an ancient being of great power. Plus, the more time they waste on these little video game completionist side objectives, the more time they give the BBEG(s) to react to their progress and undo it. Make it clear to them by second-hand NPC complaints and first-hand experiences of losing progress that this isn't a video game, they can make friends and chill after the orphanage/city/country/world is saved.
Utterly the opposite to a lot of Final Fantasy games (and many others). They always felt so noticeable when you were doing side quests instead of the main story. Though an exception I can think of is getting Vincent in FFVII as that felt like main story, lore drop, and side quest in one.
Another thing to suggest for D&D or Pathfinder inspiration is the tv show Locke & Key, especially with regards to magic items relating to story progression and world interaction. Mostly that magic items are not stats on a character. They interact with the world or the world interacts with them. They have, or can develop, relationships to places, objects, or people, whether mechanically or in lore.
This reminds me of The Alexandrian's articles on node-based adventure design. It's a great case in point to illustrate those principles!
I made a dungeon inspired by OOT. Doors had to be opened by an arrow the same color as the eye on the door but the eyes were only open during certain times of the day. Every time you switched rooms the day night cycle would switch. A room would allow them to switch the cycle so that they could allow access to those eyes on the correct cycle
This video was my first from your channel and you earned yourself a sub! Great video!
Bruh, this video is absolute gold. I've watched it 4 or 5 times now and I keep finding new inspiration. The directional items piece in particular is a fantastic way to make the story hooks concrete and mechanically relevant. Hate that I missed you and the crew at Jeffcon. Looked like an absolute blast!
This had a funny timing. A couple of days ago I sat down and hammered out a basic campaing structure based on aLttP, OoT and TP. I really liked how OoT and aLttP technically allow one to run after the plot coupons in any order, but in practice have a recommended order that can be sequence breaked. Like you said, I also liked the basic plot structure, altough I wanted to make it a bit more involved with the Ganon expy conquering Hyrule during the first stretch like in Lamp of Destiny. I also think that the basic formula of each plot coupon is a pretty good distillation of the typical RPG adventure, and the placement of the dungeons has a good mix of new places and backtracking to familiar locations.
May the path of the Hero lead to the Triforce!
That Master Librarian sure had a lot of fingers
This is fantastic stuff. Sometimes worldbuilding a campaign can fall too far in the spectrum between a big open world with few connections or hooks and a railroad. This flow of a campaign makes a world feel open-world, but keeps the characters moving forward on track with the story.
Hey Baron, first, thanks again for you video :)
Since you talk about this subject, if you've never seen it already, I would very strongly suggest you to watch "OCARINA OF TIME - A Masterclass In Subtext" by Good Blood. Very high quality content there, just like the game it's about.
You will love it. It would probably inspire you about making a video on world building regarding indirect storytelling through gameplay elements. These methods have also been used in other games, like the Witcher 3 and Hollow Knight for instance. I can't encourage you enough to watch that video. It really is a masterpiece of intellectual content. It has taught me a great deal on how to write better heuristic stories for games, which is hard to do for something like TTRPGs.
Oh thank God you just made this video.
I'm literally scouring thr corners of RUclips for Zelda D&D stuff because I'm trying to run an Ocarina of Time Campaign for my friends who've never played the game. I've watched so many lore and trivia videos about Ocarina of Time...
Truth be told, I actually want to run Majora's Mask more than anything. But I want the players at the table to know the journey of the Hero of Time before we go into the tragedy of Majora's Mask.
And I'd also like to get practice running Zelda D&D *before* attempting the 3 day cycle time travel shenanigans of Majora. And its just such a good game, I want to do it justice, get my feet wet first with Ocarina, round off the edges before I accidentally ruin Majora's Mask for my friends 😅
My oh my. I got goosebumps when he described the story. Very good old memories.
Would love to see a ocarina of time and Majora’s mask as d&d campaigns
I used oot to inspire my D&D world years ago. Gods were based on the game’s iconic characters and I made anagrams of their names for my pantheon names.
It was sooo helpful to create a meaningful homebrew pantheon without spending endless time to it.
I've played a flat out Zelda based DND campaign and can say, it was super fun. Yes.
I dont really know what D&D is but I love the way you summarized the story of Ocarina of Time and are telling gamers about this amazing game!
Beautifully made and incredibly compact. Great job.
I'm surprised everyone's so down with this idea of structuring your campaign like a video game. The thing I like most about TTRPGs is that they're nothing like video games.
Interesting points...
Now I'm curious, what, if any, are your opinions on using Chrono Trigger as a template compared to Ocarina of Time (seeing as both involve temporal shenanigans, and are quite the perfect examples of their craft)?
Chrono Trigger is also great as a template for the same reason mentioned in this video: almost all of the quests through the time period relate to Lavos and your need to stop him. Works well for D&D too since there’s a myriad of points you can “succeed” but failure doesn’t end the story, just pushes it forward
Ocarina still remains one of my all time favourite games, very cool video! 😀
This was genuinely brilliant and contained a lot of wonderfully practical advice. Glad RUclips recommended this to me. Thanks!
This was fantastically well done
Ocarina of time is one of my favorite games of all time. The forest temple is the basis of the first dungeon my party will come across as a matter of fact. OoT's dungeons are a big inspiration to me to take the time to craft dungeons in the game that I feel like doesn't have enough dungeons even when dungeons is in the name of the game: dungeons and dragons. sometimes it just feels like dragons and dragons and I look to OoT to help give me that inspiration and feel of a dungeon. Maybe a dungeon has a purpose, like the shadow temple. It was a torture grounds for the royal family to send traitors to to be interrogated by the Sheikah. I feel like dungeons should have a deep lore connecting purpose more than just "heres somewhere to explore and fight your way through for a couple of hours". Love your content and Im so glad you made this video. Normally I lurk, but I had to say something.
Wild! The Forest Temple was the catalyst that improved my dungeoncrafting, too. It made me realize I'd been envisioning my dungeons as barren, monochromatic, grid-based spaces; empty boxes connected by anonymous corridors. Even notable features like staircases, catwalks, or changes in elevation were all 5-foot measurements and 90° angles.
The Forest Temple inspired me to add character to my dungeons. Architectural motifs, predominant colors & materials, decorative flourishes reinforcing the themes, etc. No longer just "a 20x30 foot room with a table, two chairs, and some crates", I created "style guides" (for lack of a better term) with evocative terms I could plug into my descriptions. Like pink-veined marble walls, vaulted ceilings with inlaid star-charts, rugs and tapestries with reoccurring patterns; soon I started adding sounds, smells, temperature changes. Both my players and I discovered new levels of engagement. It really expanded my worldbuilding options.
It made me a better DM .
Thanks, Saria!
@James Joy hell yeah you love to see it. Plus you need to play the forest temple theme while they explore for atmosphere
@@Chadventure_Animated that would totally rock!
As it is, I find myself humming it while drawing layouts
@James Joy forest temple is the best track in the game with the shadow temple coming in close. That mystery and coming of age vibe (it's the first thing link adventures into after becoming an adult) to find his friend from childhood is bittersweet. I love it dearly
@@Chadventure_Animated yes, I've always thought of it as an inversion (not technically, but emotionally) of Saria's song.
But when it's time to roll for Initiative I *always* here the Song Of Storms!
your clothes and set give this a very “HAVE YOU BEEN INJURED IN A WORKPLACE ACCIDENT” vibe. love the video tho!
I have been so lost on where to begin writing my plot and this is genuinely the best advice i've found. I think. Haven't tried it yet...
4:50 What the hell is wrong with that woman's fingers!?!?!
I got the feeling that a lot (if not all) of the art was AI generated. Als got a problem with the number of limbs right now.
@@MikkelKjrJensen Yeah, I think so too
Very interesting. I'm sorry to say I've never played D&D. I'm a 90s kid and by the time I had my group of friends in school, all we cared about was video games like Ocarina of Time and Pokemon. In retrospect, I wish we did get into D&D as well.
Yoink! It’s funny how we’re both exploring the parallels and opportunities of video games and TTRPGs, haha! Great video, great idea!
~Ian
that ending bit made me want to dig out my ocarina and practice playing again.
Insanely good and concise video, man. Superb flow.
That last part is the abstract/narrative version of Jaquaying the dungeon
Well milord, I’ve finally started writing my first campaign. I used my desk as a continent, rolled my d30 and largest d20 for two capitals, and smaller dice for villages, towns, forts and mines. Using your advice about thinking of trade routes and value added goods, I came up with resources and value adds for most of the towns. Now I just need to nail down characters (and their players) to populate it and figure out what kind of adventure to have…
There will be vampires
With the two capitals of different sizes, and "villages, towns, mines" this sounds an awful lot like Tsarist Russia to me. That could be a great setting, though, quite honestly.
Man, this is genius stuff. This is actually going to help with a campaign I am writing to flesh it out. Awesome!
I absolutely love this video and I have listened to this multiple times and each time I get a new idea. A beautiful dissection keep making amazing content
These are all great points. Hbomberguy made a video about Fallout: New Vegas that went into something similar. The most interesting places in the game world have side quests that point to and from each other, so even if you miss one quest giver asking you to go to vault A you might find something in vault B or village C that mentions vault A, and if you run into that initial quest giver later, you may discover you have already either fulfilled or invalidated the quest they had for you, changing how that person and maybe their community functions. Quests shouldn't look like a bunch of lines or one winding thread, they should look like an interconnected web.
AAAAH THE ANIMAL BREEDER IS A MONSTER
Congrats on being interviewed for the Guardian article on the OGL!
This has spectacular timing. I was looking back at OoT and thought of filing off its serial numbers to use in my campaign.
actually, a friend of mine converted that vgame to d&d 3.5 back in 2005 and the campaign was MEMORABLE
Instant add to my watch list 🤩
Bro is wearing an entire prosperity preachers hand me down suit...
Great video ! I like that your content is short but dense in information, keep up like this I love your Channel !!
What a lovely video, plan to do rewatch and use these ideas for sure!
Literally the best way to get tips for a campaign.
This video is fantastic advice. I've been running games in a similar manner ever since I stumbled across the 5x5 method. Google it, it will pay huge dividends. No matter where the PC's are there is something to do that actually makes sense. Tying it all to the BBG, now that I hadn't thought of so the next step to a better campaign is revealed. Thanks!
high-coupling of locations is really interesting
I like to think of stringing together the guiding pieces of the villain's plan, the NPCs, and parts of the setting as "Jaquaysing the Plot."
Your videos have helped me so much as a new DM. Keep the content coming. Would it be possible for you to make a video on Triton Geopolitics?
I've actually got a LOZ campeign in the works the sage mediations are all artifact level items that actually DO something. The shadow mediation let's you cast illusion and necromancy spells as a 10th level caster
It's been recently discovered what the medallion powers would have done, thanks to beta build data being discovered.
Spirit medallion let you turn into a fairy and Shadow made you invisible to enemies.
This more than anything shows how damn good of a series Zelda is. Your dnd example was great and made sense as a comparison but I literally tuned out while you were explaining it. I was so bored, I couldn't care less about these trite concepts like vampires and haunted graveyards but when they're put in the world of zelda they're engaging and memorable! I think the visuals and the gameplay helps that obviously but there's just something special about the legend of zelda man.
Great video. I need to make an outline based on this...
I ran a D&D 2nd (and soon after starting we switched to 3rd) edition campaign between 1999 and 2013. We played weekly in that campaign for 14 years. Was good. Characters betrayed and sacrificed Zelda and eventually found a way to turn Ganon into a dark god to rule the world for eternity.
This sounds like great advice for writing a module, and it could be a great campaign.
But there are some potholes to watch for with this type of plot.
1. Ocarina, like most video games, has walls to prevent players from running off the rails. TTRPGs should normally not be designed this way. A wall in a video game is a critical component to directional puzzles. "Well, I can't go any further this way, so I guess the answer is elsewhere." TTRPGs are typically played to give players the freedom to go anywhere and do anything. Arbitrary, ill explained walls and cliffs will cheapen the experience (and aren't even that hard to bypass with D&D spells and skill checks). You have to think of other ways of communicating to players when their a course of action will be totally off the plot, hopefully without destroying immersion.
2. Plans are worthless, but planning is indispensible. Pouring hours into a plot that mimicks the structure of Ocarina will almost surely come immediately to ruin as players will elect a choice you didn't consider in your prep. That's why plans are worthless. You don't want a script, because it will implode within the first few choices players make. But knowing the plot by thoroughly writing out the base concepts this way gives you something more valuable: familiarity with the plot elements. When you know the mcguffin flowers only grow around the town afflicted by zombies, you also have enough information to improvise *why* they only grow there and can use it to adapt the plot in a live session when the party devises an alternative strategy you didn't anticipate.
Use this kind of prep as a crib sheet for yourself and avoid trying to coerce players into stepping through specific hoops the way video games do.
This is amazing advice. Thank you.
Zelda OoT
Greatest game ever!
Definitely the best DnD campaign ever
Ganon is basically a ginger old Biff from back to the future 2
This is the content I need
Koume: A word of caution to this tale...
Kotake: ... Should Link choose to fight, Ganon will fail!
Something cool about Ganondorf is he wasn't always all powerful, he needed schemes to overthrow King Hyrule and in fact he swore loyalty to him to trick him. Every race was in war with one another, and Ganondorf went to war because he wanted the best for his people that was suffering the inhospitable Gerudo dessert.
Have you ever thought about doing a video on what can be learned monster encounter design
I have a few combat encounter design videos. Is there anything you specifically are looking for?
@@DungeonMasterpiece Nothing in specific. While I was playing the game I noticed how well long hard hunts against creatures with massive health pools represented monsters.
This is low-key the best video I've ever seen for creating content in a campaign. Fucking subbed!
I seriously believe this, my hex crawl video, and my random encounter videos might be my best videos.
Anyone else notice all the extra fingers on the dog breeder pic? Someone is using an AI art generator! Those things just don't get hands!
Man went sicko mode with information
That's a good formula. I do that in my campaign without realizing it.
And here I am thinking about basing a campaign on majoras mask.
This is all great advice. However, one thing I would like to note, as someone who draws a _lot_ of inspiration from Zelda for his campaigns, is that using items in the way described here is a lot trickier in D&D than it is in a video game. Without videogamey things like invisible walls and unskippable cutscenes and with the players' creativity, party size, and vast array of spells, trying to pull off Zelda's lock-and-key approach to campaign and world structure - or even dungeon design - can be very difficult. Something like the hookshot probably isn't that helpful for your party unless everyone gets one, and it's likely redundant when you have characters that can fly or teleport. While the DM can technically nix anything the players try, that doesn't mean they should.
This is amazing insight.
Will you do one of your videos about how video games can improve Dungeons & Dragons will you talk about majora's mask and making strong emotion payoffs like the sun and moon quest does
Where can I play this vampire campaign... sounds amazing
"And inadvertently means . . ."
Are you sure about the *inadvertently* part? Sounds too well done to be inadvertent.
I really was great. I’m playing it with my daughter now.
Nintendo and WotC need to do collabs. Just think of all the great Zelda games that would make insane D&D campaigns.
I used Dead Hand as an encounter in D&D, and it was a huge hit with the players.
Is there an official source that says Ganondorf knew about Zelda and Link because of a prophecy? As I recall, and correct me if I'm wrong, Ganondorf only realized what was going on as he spotted them at the window. Soon he learned of Link going around collecting Stones, he targeted the Royal Family instead and set a trap for Link. He didn't know however that the Triforce would be split in three. Hence why I don't think there was a prophecy. He just knew Zelda was on to him and she sent Link out on his mission and had the support of the Sheikah.
Yet so many people say that Zelda isn’t an RPG franchise. May they be enlightened.
It is important to keep in mind though that too much interconnectivity can make for a very difficult quest to keep track of.
How many fingers does the dog breeder have? 4:44
Maybe pause every now and then for a bit of processing time - the modern editing style of eliminating every single gap makes information dense material such as this hard for some to follow.
Hey! Listen!
good stuff!